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#1: ice-pick in the forehead

Posted on 2005-06-06 06:00:34 by Charles Ulrich

According to Ben Watson (Poodle Play, p.367), FZ used the term "ice-pick
in the forehead" to describe the guitar tone of Guitar Slim and Johnny
"Guitar" Watson.

Can anyone provide a citation of where FZ used this phrase?

It's not in TRFZB, although he does refer on the same page (179) to
Guitar Slim's "mangle-it strangle-it attitude" and his murder with an
ice-pick. (He's getting him mixed up with Sonny Boy Williamson I--and
it's probably not true about Sonny Boy, either.)

--Charles

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#2: Re: ice-pick in the forehead

Posted on 2005-06-06 12:14:00 by computeruser

&quot;Charles Ulrich&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ulrich&#64;sfu.ca" target="_blank">ulrich&#64;sfu.ca</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:ulrich-C6C714.21002705062005&#64;news.vc.shawcable.net..." target="_blank">ulrich-C6C714.21002705062005&#64;news.vc.shawcable.net...</a>
&gt; According to Ben Watson (Poodle Play, p.367), FZ used the term &quot;ice-pick
&gt; in the forehead&quot; to describe the guitar tone of Guitar Slim and Johnny
&gt; &quot;Guitar&quot; Watson.
&gt;
&gt; Can anyone provide a citation of where FZ used this phrase?
&gt;
&gt; It's not in TRFZB, although he does refer on the same page (179) to
&gt; Guitar Slim's &quot;mangle-it strangle-it attitude&quot; and his murder with an
&gt; ice-pick. (He's getting him mixed up with Sonny Boy Williamson I--and
&gt; it's probably not true about Sonny Boy, either.)
&gt;
&gt; --Charles

Joe's Garage

Fembot in a t-shirt / Wet T-Shirt night

computeruser

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#3: Re: ice-pick in the forehead

Posted on 2005-06-06 12:24:28 by computeruser

&quot;computeruser&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:cyrano69&#64;juno.com" target="_blank">cyrano69&#64;juno.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:da355$42a421e8$42a1c61a$<a href="mailto:25610&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">25610&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt; &quot;Charles Ulrich&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ulrich&#64;sfu.ca" target="_blank">ulrich&#64;sfu.ca</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:ulrich-C6C714.21002705062005&#64;news.vc.shawcable.net..." target="_blank">ulrich-C6C714.21002705062005&#64;news.vc.shawcable.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; According to Ben Watson (Poodle Play, p.367), FZ used the term &quot;ice-pick
&gt;&gt; in the forehead&quot; to describe the guitar tone of Guitar Slim and Johnny
&gt;&gt; &quot;Guitar&quot; Watson.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Can anyone provide a citation of where FZ used this phrase?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; It's not in TRFZB, although he does refer on the same page (179) to
&gt;&gt; Guitar Slim's &quot;mangle-it strangle-it attitude&quot; and his murder with an
&gt;&gt; ice-pick. (He's getting him mixed up with Sonny Boy Williamson I--and
&gt;&gt; it's probably not true about Sonny Boy, either.)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; --Charles
&gt;
&gt; Joe's Garage
&gt;
&gt; Fembot in a t-shirt / Wet T-Shirt night
&gt;
&gt; computeruser

I don't recall a Guitar Slim or Johnny &quot;Guitar&quot; Watson reference there.
Could this be another Ben Watson inaccuracy?

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#4: Re: ice-pick in the forehead

Posted on 2005-06-06 17:01:18 by Charles Ulrich

In article &lt;71bc0$42a4245d$42a1c61a$<a href="mailto:25831&#64;FUSE.NET" target="_blank">25831&#64;FUSE.NET</a>&gt;,
&quot;computeruser&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:cyrano69&#64;juno.com" target="_blank">cyrano69&#64;juno.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; &quot;computeruser&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:cyrano69&#64;juno.com" target="_blank">cyrano69&#64;juno.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:da355$42a421e8$42a1c61a$<a href="mailto:25610&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">25610&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt; &gt; &quot;Charles Ulrich&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ulrich&#64;sfu.ca" target="_blank">ulrich&#64;sfu.ca</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:<a href="mailto:ulrich-C6C714.21002705062005&#64;news.vc.shawcable.net..." target="_blank">ulrich-C6C714.21002705062005&#64;news.vc.shawcable.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; According to Ben Watson (Poodle Play, p.367), FZ used the term &quot;ice-pick
&gt; &gt;&gt; in the forehead&quot; to describe the guitar tone of Guitar Slim and Johnny
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Guitar&quot; Watson.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Can anyone provide a citation of where FZ used this phrase?
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; It's not in TRFZB, although he does refer on the same page (179) to
&gt; &gt;&gt; Guitar Slim's &quot;mangle-it strangle-it attitude&quot; and his murder with an
&gt; &gt;&gt; ice-pick. (He's getting him mixed up with Sonny Boy Williamson I--and
&gt; &gt;&gt; it's probably not true about Sonny Boy, either.)
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Joe's Garage
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Fembot in a t-shirt / Wet T-Shirt night

Of course. That's where it's relevant.

&gt; I don't recall a Guitar Slim or Johnny &quot;Guitar&quot; Watson reference there.
&gt; Could this be another Ben Watson inaccuracy?

Maybe so. But maybe not. That's why I asked.

If FZ did use this phrase in reference to guitar tone, then that's worth
mentioning (as Watson did) in relation to Fembot. But if he didn't, then
I certainly don't want to perpetuate the misinformation.

--Charles

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#5: re: ice-pick in the forehead

Posted on 2006-07-03 21:38:01 by Charles Ulrich

In June 2005, I asked:

&gt; According to Ben Watson (Poodle Play, p.367), FZ used the term
&gt; &quot;ice-pick in the forehead&quot; to describe the guitar tone of Guitar Slim
&gt; and Johnny &quot;Guitar&quot; Watson.
&gt;
&gt; Can anyone provide a citation of where FZ used this phrase?
&gt;
&gt; It's not in TRFZB, although he does refer on the same page (179) to
&gt; Guitar Slim's &quot;mangle-it strangle-it attitude&quot; and his murder with an
&gt; ice-pick. (He's getting him mixed up with Sonny Boy Williamson I--and
&gt; it's probably not true about Sonny Boy, either.)

I still haven't found the phrase in question used by FZ about Guitar
Slim or Johnny Guitar Watson. But I did find the following in a 1979
interview &lt;<a href="http://www.afka.net/Articles/1979-08%20Zappa.htm" target="_blank">http://www.afka.net/Articles/1979-08%20Zappa.htm</a>&gt;:

&gt; To me, it seems incomprehensible that a person could listen to &quot;Three
&gt; Hours Past Midnight&quot; by Johnny Guitar Watson and not be moved to get
&gt; violent. I mean, that's really saying something. Same with the guitar
&gt; solo on &quot;Story Of My Life&quot; by Guitar Slim. I mean, that stuff used to
&gt; make me violent. I'd just want to get an icepick and go out and work
&gt; over the neighborhood! I loved that. To me, that was the real world.

--Charles

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#6: Re: ice-pick in the forehead

Posted on 2006-07-05 13:12:43 by computeruser

&quot;Charles Ulrich&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ulrich&#64;sfu.ca" target="_blank">ulrich&#64;sfu.ca</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:ulrich-95DB4A.12392803072006&#64;shawnews..." target="_blank">ulrich-95DB4A.12392803072006&#64;shawnews...</a>
&gt; In June 2005, I asked:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; According to Ben Watson (Poodle Play, p.367), FZ used the term
&gt;&gt; &quot;ice-pick in the forehead&quot; to describe the guitar tone of Guitar Slim
&gt;&gt; and Johnny &quot;Guitar&quot; Watson.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Can anyone provide a citation of where FZ used this phrase?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; It's not in TRFZB, although he does refer on the same page (179) to
&gt;&gt; Guitar Slim's &quot;mangle-it strangle-it attitude&quot; and his murder with an
&gt;&gt; ice-pick. (He's getting him mixed up with Sonny Boy Williamson I--and
&gt;&gt; it's probably not true about Sonny Boy, either.)
&gt;
&gt; I still haven't found the phrase in question used by FZ about Guitar
&gt; Slim or Johnny Guitar Watson. But I did find the following in a 1979
&gt; interview &lt;<a href="http://www.afka.net/Articles/1979-08%20Zappa.htm" target="_blank">http://www.afka.net/Articles/1979-08%20Zappa.htm</a>&gt;:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; To me, it seems incomprehensible that a person could listen to &quot;Three
&gt;&gt; Hours Past Midnight&quot; by Johnny Guitar Watson and not be moved to get
&gt;&gt; violent. I mean, that's really saying something. Same with the guitar
&gt;&gt; solo on &quot;Story Of My Life&quot; by Guitar Slim. I mean, that stuff used to
&gt;&gt; make me violent. I'd just want to get an icepick and go out and work
&gt;&gt; over the neighborhood! I loved that. To me, that was the real world.
&gt;
&gt; --Charles

If you take Ben Watson and the guitar players or blue players out of it and
simple look at the lyric and consider what is happening in the story at the
time you might see a different relevance of the ice-pick line.

First, Buddy Jones says:&quot; .... And Mary's the kind of Red-Blooded American
Girl who'll do anything . . . &quot;
&quot;I said anything . . . for fifty bucks. That's right! &quot;

Mary says she needs the money to get home and Buddy Jones says: &quot;Yeh, I
know, your father is waiting for you in the tool shed . . . that's right,
you heard right . . . our big prize tonight is fifty American Dollars to the
girl with the most exciting mammalian protruberances . . .&quot;

Then in the story the water is thrown and this dialogue:

Buddy Jones:

&quot;. . .And here comes THE WATER!&quot;

Mary:

&quot;EEEK! &quot;

Buddy Jones:

&quot;No, you'd squeak more if the water got on you . . . sounds like you just
got an ice pick in the forehead . . . AND HERE COMES THE ICE PICK IN THE
FOREHEAD . . . a million laughs, Mary! Anyway; good golly, what a mess . . .
she's totally soaked . . .&quot;

----

Could it be a insult or comment toward Mary indicating she is as good as
lobotomized? A lobotomy being the operation where the frontal lobe of the
human brain is destroyed with an ice-pick like device to &quot;cure&quot; the mental
problem, rendering the patient harmless to themselves and others, not quite
a vegetable. Frank has a fantastic way of pointing out the stupidity of
people.

I'm afraid this one seems to be a Ben Waston created myth, that has nothing
to do with and blues guitarist, or murders with ice-picks surrounding them.

Thanks again go to Román García Albertos for his wonderful web site:
Information Is Not Knowledge
<a href="http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/lyrics/Joe" target="_blank">http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/lyrics/Joe</a>'s_Garage.html

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#7: Re: ice-pick in the forehead

Posted on 2006-07-05 13:53:31 by computeruser

&quot;computeruser&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:cyrano69&#64;postmaster.invalid" target="_blank">cyrano69&#64;postmaster.invalid</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:112e5$44ab9ea2$d0660664$<a href="mailto:15763&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">15763&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt; &quot;Charles Ulrich&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ulrich&#64;sfu.ca" target="_blank">ulrich&#64;sfu.ca</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:ulrich-95DB4A.12392803072006&#64;shawnews..." target="_blank">ulrich-95DB4A.12392803072006&#64;shawnews...</a>
&gt;&gt; In June 2005, I asked:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; According to Ben Watson (Poodle Play, p.367), FZ used the term
&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;ice-pick in the forehead&quot; to describe the guitar tone of Guitar Slim
&gt;&gt;&gt; and Johnny &quot;Guitar&quot; Watson.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Can anyone provide a citation of where FZ used this phrase?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; It's not in TRFZB, although he does refer on the same page (179) to
&gt;&gt;&gt; Guitar Slim's &quot;mangle-it strangle-it attitude&quot; and his murder with an
&gt;&gt;&gt; ice-pick. (He's getting him mixed up with Sonny Boy Williamson I--and
&gt;&gt;&gt; it's probably not true about Sonny Boy, either.)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I still haven't found the phrase in question used by FZ about Guitar
&gt;&gt; Slim or Johnny Guitar Watson. But I did find the following in a 1979
&gt;&gt; interview &lt;<a href="http://www.afka.net/Articles/1979-08%20Zappa.htm" target="_blank">http://www.afka.net/Articles/1979-08%20Zappa.htm</a>&gt;:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; To me, it seems incomprehensible that a person could listen to &quot;Three
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hours Past Midnight&quot; by Johnny Guitar Watson and not be moved to get
&gt;&gt;&gt; violent. I mean, that's really saying something. Same with the guitar
&gt;&gt;&gt; solo on &quot;Story Of My Life&quot; by Guitar Slim. I mean, that stuff used to
&gt;&gt;&gt; make me violent. I'd just want to get an icepick and go out and work
&gt;&gt;&gt; over the neighborhood! I loved that. To me, that was the real world.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; --Charles
&gt;
&gt; If you take Ben Watson and the guitar players or blue players out of it
&gt; and simple look at the lyric and consider what is happening in the story
&gt; at the time you might see a different relevance of the ice-pick line.
&gt;
&gt; First, Buddy Jones says:&quot; .... And Mary's the kind of Red-Blooded American
&gt; Girl who'll do anything . . . &quot;
&gt; &quot;I said anything . . . for fifty bucks. That's right! &quot;
&gt;
&gt; Mary says she needs the money to get home and Buddy Jones says: &quot;Yeh, I
&gt; know, your father is waiting for you in the tool shed . . . that's right,
&gt; you heard right . . . our big prize tonight is fifty American Dollars to
&gt; the girl with the most exciting mammalian protruberances . . .&quot;
&gt;
&gt; Then in the story the water is thrown and this dialogue:
&gt;
&gt; Buddy Jones:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;. . .And here comes THE WATER!&quot;
&gt;
&gt; Mary:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;EEEK! &quot;
&gt;
&gt; Buddy Jones:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;No, you'd squeak more if the water got on you . . . sounds like you just
&gt; got an ice pick in the forehead . . . AND HERE COMES THE ICE PICK IN THE
&gt; FOREHEAD . . . a million laughs, Mary! Anyway; good golly, what a mess . .
&gt; . she's totally soaked . . .&quot;
&gt;
&gt; ----
&gt;
&gt; Could it be a insult or comment toward Mary indicating she is as good as
&gt; lobotomized? A lobotomy being the operation where the frontal lobe of the
&gt; human brain is destroyed with an ice-pick like device to &quot;cure&quot; the mental
&gt; problem, rendering the patient harmless to themselves and others, not
&gt; quite a vegetable. Frank has a fantastic way of pointing out the stupidity
&gt; of people.
&gt;
&gt; I'm afraid this one seems to be a Ben Waston created myth, that has
&gt; nothing to do with and blues guitarist, or murders with ice-picks
&gt; surrounding them.
&gt;
&gt; Thanks again go to Román García Albertos for his wonderful web site:
&gt; Information Is Not Knowledge
&gt; <a href="http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/lyrics/Joe" target="_blank">http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/lyrics/Joe</a>'s_Garage.html


From: <a href="http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=199" target="_blank">http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=199</a>

Dr. Freeman's transorbital lobotomy procedure was literally an ice pick
hammered through the back of each eye socket into the brain then wiggled in
a stirring motion, often taking just a few minutes under local anesthesia.

from:
<a href="http://groups.google.com/group/aus.tv.x-files/browse_frm/thread/13f5669de19323d1/dcb3f8017944141e?lnk=st&amp;q=Freeman" target="_blank"> http://groups.google.com/group/aus.tv.x-files/browse_frm/thr ead/13f5669de19323d1/dcb3f8017944141e?lnk=st&amp;q=Freeman</a> 's+first+transorbital+lobotomies+were+done+using+an+icepick& amp;rnum=1#dcb3f8017944141e

Freeman's first transorbital lobotomies were done using an icepick. The
icepick was thrust up between the eyeball and the eyelid through the roof
of the orbit into the frontal lobe. The lateral cut was made by swinging
the icepick from side to side.

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#8: Re: ice-pick in the forehead

Posted on 2006-07-05 17:06:32 by caltrop

computeruser said the following:

&gt; From: <a href="http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=199" target="_blank">http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=199</a>
&gt;
&gt; Dr. Freeman's transorbital lobotomy procedure was literally an ice pick
&gt; hammered through the back of each eye socket into the brain then wiggled in
&gt; a stirring motion, often taking just a few minutes under local anesthesia.
&gt;
&gt; from:
&gt; <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/aus.tv.x-files/browse_frm/thread/13f5669de19323d1/dcb3f8017944141e?lnk=st&amp;q=Freeman" target="_blank"> http://groups.google.com/group/aus.tv.x-files/browse_frm/thr ead/13f5669de19323d1/dcb3f8017944141e?lnk=st&amp;q=Freeman</a> 's+first+transorbital+lobotomies+were+done+using+an+icepick& amp;rnum=1#dcb3f8017944141e
&gt;
&gt; Freeman's first transorbital lobotomies were done using an icepick. The
&gt; icepick was thrust up between the eyeball and the eyelid through the roof
&gt; of the orbit into the frontal lobe. The lateral cut was made by swinging
&gt; the icepick from side to side.


As that top link infers, that is &quot;damninteresting&quot;.

Thanks. I was always under the impression that lobotomies were
performed with common wired electrodes affixed to the skin.

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#9: Re: ice-pick in the forehead

Posted on 2006-07-06 01:20:28 by bilh

Ouch! And I, in innocence, thought it was just a reference to the
technique that Josef's hired flunky used to take out Lev Davidovitch.

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