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#1: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-11 22:57:23 by Matty-o

What's the deal? Is the Federation the governing body of the earth, or
what?
I always assumed that Earth (or maybe even individual nations) still had
governing power, and the Federation was just an organization like the UN.

Matty-o

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#2: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-11 23:10:41 by Graham Kennedy

Matty-o wrote:

> What's the deal? Is the Federation the governing body of the earth, or
> what?
> I always assumed that Earth (or maybe even individual nations) still had
> governing power, and the Federation was just an organization like the UN.

It seems from Paradise Lost that the Federation President
has direct authority over Earth. Maybe Earth is a special
case because it's the capital world of the whole Federation
or something?

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
<a href="http://www.ditl.org" target="_blank">http://www.ditl.org</a>

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#3: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-11 23:40:31 by Jaxtraw

&quot;Graham Kennedy&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:graham&#64;ditl.org" target="_blank">graham&#64;ditl.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:lxuge.63632$<a href="mailto:Cq2.51970&#64;fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk..." target="_blank">Cq2.51970&#64;fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...</a>
&gt; Matty-o wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; What's the deal? Is the Federation the governing body of the earth, or
&gt; &gt; what?
&gt; &gt; I always assumed that Earth (or maybe even individual nations) still had
&gt; &gt; governing power, and the Federation was just an organization like the
UN.
&gt;
&gt; It seems from Paradise Lost that the Federation President
&gt; has direct authority over Earth. Maybe Earth is a special
&gt; case because it's the capital world of the whole Federation
&gt; or something?
&gt;

There don't seem to be any democratic institutions or proper government at
all in the future. All we know is that there's a president, who seems to
have autocratic powers. Starfleet seem to have total autonomy (&quot;Conspiracy&quot;)
and if you subvert Starfleet, you've got control of the Federation. I think
a councilman is seen in TOS (The Galileo 7?) but how people get on this
council isn't clear. AFAICT there's never been a mention of an election, or
democratic representation. We do know that if you get control of the
president, you've got total power (that DS9 one the name of which I can't
remember).

We've seen the council chamber (TVH) but this seems to be just somewhere
where the president argues with ambassadors in front of an audience- a bunch
of Star Wars cantina rejects who don't appear to be democratic
representatives, just anyone who wants to watch (why else is Yeoman Rand
among them, why else is Spock sitting there when Kirk et al walk in? Why the
heck are the mutineers told their fate in a council chamber *anyway*?)

We also know that the president makes arbitrary decisions without consulting
any form of government, and has Klingons, Romulans and Starfleet brass
wandering in and out of his office at will without even knocking (TUC).

It comes across as some kind of generally benign dictatorship (so long as
you haven't got a beef with them since there's apparently no form of
democratic representation of colonies, and Starfleet and The Federation are
basically interchangeable. (TNG, that one where Wesley buggers off with the
Traveller)). And it's clear that if you want to get ahead in life, basically
you gotta join the military.

I don't actually think this is a specific intention of the writers- it's
just sloppy writing and a complete lack of concern for creating any kind of
coherent social backdrop to the series.

I tell ya, if I was president of the Federation, I'd expect a better office.
And that's one crappy little desk he has... :)

Ian

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#4: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-12 00:20:54 by Matty-o

&gt;
&gt; It seems from Paradise Lost that the Federation President
&gt; has direct authority over Earth. Maybe Earth is a special
&gt; case because it's the capital world of the whole Federation
&gt; or something?
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Graham Kennedy
&gt;
&gt; Creator and Author,
&gt; Daystrom Institute Technical Library
&gt; <a href="http://www.ditl.org" target="_blank">http://www.ditl.org</a>
&gt;


Paradise Lost is basically what I was referring to when I originally posted.
The situation in that episode is analogous to President Bush needing an O.K.
from Kofi Annan before doing something on American soil. It just struck me
as a little strange.
I can't remember any canon examples of a &quot;Terran President&quot; in TNG, VOY, or
DS9. Were there any references to one in TOS?

Matty-o

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#5: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-12 01:10:21 by Eric Nichols

&quot;Matty-o&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nospam.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:Tkuge.820$<a href="mailto:5l5.297&#64;newssvr31.news.prodigy.com..." target="_blank">5l5.297&#64;newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...</a>
&gt; What's the deal? Is the Federation the governing body of the earth, or
&gt; what?
&gt; I always assumed that Earth (or maybe even individual nations) still had
&gt; governing power, and the Federation was just an organization like the UN.
&gt;
&gt; Matty-o


Its not to big of a leap of the imagination for me to believe that the
government in the Star Trek universe isn't something we would recognize in
todays terms. They've overcome hunger, money, and disease(for the most part
anyway), with any luck they overcame the stagnent mush-pool of politics that
we have today.
The way I've always thought about it is that every planet gets a certain
number of council members that would be elected by the people, and those
council members would elect the president. Earth would undoublty have its
own centralized government responcible for seeign to the needs of the
planet, seperate from the Federation, but would also fall under Federation
control, sort of like the way state governments submit to the federal
government. The President would have the right to declare a state of
emergancy or marshal law on any planet.
--
Eric Nichols
Psalm 138:8

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#6: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-12 01:52:04 by Matty-o

&quot;Eric Nichols&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:sugarbearnichols&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">sugarbearnichols&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:xhwge.1021$<a href="mailto:aM4.958&#64;newssvr11.news.prodigy.com..." target="_blank">aM4.958&#64;newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Matty-o&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nospam.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:Tkuge.820$<a href="mailto:5l5.297&#64;newssvr31.news.prodigy.com..." target="_blank">5l5.297&#64;newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; What's the deal? Is the Federation the governing body of the earth, or
&gt;&gt; what?
&gt;&gt; I always assumed that Earth (or maybe even individual nations) still had
&gt;&gt; governing power, and the Federation was just an organization like the UN.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Matty-o
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Its not to big of a leap of the imagination for me to believe that the
&gt; government in the Star Trek universe isn't something we would recognize in
&gt; todays terms. They've overcome hunger, money, and disease(for the most
&gt; part
&gt; anyway), with any luck they overcame the stagnent mush-pool of politics
&gt; that
&gt; we have today.
&gt; The way I've always thought about it is that every planet gets a certain
&gt; number of council members that would be elected by the people, and those
&gt; council members would elect the president. Earth would undoublty have its
&gt; own centralized government responcible for seeign to the needs of the
&gt; planet, seperate from the Federation, but would also fall under Federation
&gt; control, sort of like the way state governments submit to the federal
&gt; government. The President would have the right to declare a state of
&gt; emergancy or marshal law on any planet.
&gt; --
&gt; Eric Nichols
&gt; Psalm 138:8
&gt;
&gt;

I hear ya, but there are lots of examples of 20th century thinking in 24th
century Trek. I'm not willing to accept that planet-wide and inter-stellar
politics are leaps and bounds better in a &quot;mere&quot; 400 years. But they might
be. I'm even more unwilling to accept that control of the entire planet
would be given over to one man, who isn't human, and who looks a little like
a dog.

Matty-o

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#7: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-12 02:28:38 by Eric Nichols

&gt; I hear ya, but there are lots of examples of 20th century thinking in 24th
&gt; century Trek. I'm not willing to accept that planet-wide and
inter-stellar
&gt; politics are leaps and bounds better in a &quot;mere&quot; 400 years. But they
might
&gt; be. I'm even more unwilling to accept that control of the entire planet
&gt; would be given over to one man, who isn't human, and who looks a little
like
&gt; a dog.
&gt;
&gt; Matty-o

While I haven't seen the epi in a few years, why make the assumption that he
wasn't a naturalized citizen?

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#8: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-12 03:11:22 by ToolPackinMama

Matty-o wrote:
&gt; What's the deal? Is the Federation the governing body of the earth, or
&gt; what?
&gt; I always assumed that Earth (or maybe even individual nations) still had
&gt; governing power, and the Federation was just an organization like the UN.
&gt;
&gt; Matty-o

In TOS, the United Earth and the United Federation of Planets are two
distinctive governing bodies.

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#9: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-12 03:14:41 by ToolPackinMama

Jaxtraw wrote:

&gt; There don't seem to be any democratic institutions or proper government at
&gt; all in the future. All we know is that there's a president, who seems to
&gt; have autocratic powers. Starfleet seem to have total autonomy (&quot;Conspiracy&quot;)

In TOS, starfleet was the military arm of the UFP. In short, Starfleet
had to answer to the UFP, and was often sent to do the UFP's bidding.

For example, in Taste Of Armageddon, the UFP ambassador had the power to
order Kirk around. They were specificaly there on UFP business.

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#10: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-12 03:15:43 by ToolPackinMama

Jaxtraw wrote:

&gt; I tell ya, if I was president of the Federation, I'd expect a better office.
&gt; And that's one crappy little desk he has... :)

LOL

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#11: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-12 03:16:50 by ToolPackinMama

Eric Nichols wrote:

&gt; The way I've always thought about it is that every planet gets a certain
&gt; number of council members that would be elected by the people, and those
&gt; council members would elect the president. Earth would undoublty have its
&gt; own centralized government responcible for seeign to the needs of the
&gt; planet, seperate from the Federation, but would also fall under Federation
&gt; control, sort of like the way state governments submit to the federal
&gt; government.

I agree.

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#12: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-12 09:53:48 by Graham Kennedy

Jaxtraw wrote:

&gt; &quot;Graham Kennedy&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:graham&#64;ditl.org" target="_blank">graham&#64;ditl.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:lxuge.63632$<a href="mailto:Cq2.51970&#64;fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk..." target="_blank">Cq2.51970&#64;fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Matty-o wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;What's the deal? Is the Federation the governing body of the earth, or
&gt;&gt;&gt;what?
&gt;&gt;&gt;I always assumed that Earth (or maybe even individual nations) still had
&gt;&gt;&gt;governing power, and the Federation was just an organization like the
&gt;
&gt; UN.
&gt;
&gt;&gt;It seems from Paradise Lost that the Federation President
&gt;&gt;has direct authority over Earth. Maybe Earth is a special
&gt;&gt;case because it's the capital world of the whole Federation
&gt;&gt;or something?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; There don't seem to be any democratic institutions or proper government at
&gt; all in the future.

That's hard to say. They rarely if ever mention that such
things exist, but they also rarely if ever say that they
do not exist either.

&gt; All we know is that there's a president, who seems to
&gt; have autocratic powers. Starfleet seem to have total autonomy (&quot;Conspiracy&quot;)
&gt; and if you subvert Starfleet, you've got control of the Federation. I think
&gt; a councilman is seen in TOS (The Galileo 7?) but how people get on this
&gt; council isn't clear. AFAICT there's never been a mention of an election, or
&gt; democratic representation. We do know that if you get control of the
&gt; president, you've got total power (that DS9 one the name of which I can't
&gt; remember).

The President's power is rather fuzzily defined. He
did put troops on the streets of Earth, but for all we
know he can do that as an emergency measure but must
seek approval of the Council within ten days or some
such. He does issue orders to Starfleet, but it wouldn't
be unexpected for him to be commander in chief, as Bush
is.

True the Conspiracy aliens sought to take control of
Starfleet to control the Federation, but it doesn't
follow that Starfleet *legally* controls the Federation;
taking control just gives you access to all those big
ships with the big guns. The same would be true of
America today, having control of all the armed forces
would give you control of the country even though
the armed forces have no legal authority to be in
charge.

&gt; We've seen the council chamber (TVH) but this seems to be just somewhere
&gt; where the president argues with ambassadors in front of an audience- a bunch
&gt; of Star Wars cantina rejects who don't appear to be democratic
&gt; representatives, just anyone who wants to watch (why else is Yeoman Rand
&gt; among them, why else is Spock sitting there when Kirk et al walk in? Why the
&gt; heck are the mutineers told their fate in a council chamber *anyway*?)

Again, we don't know how one becomes a council member.
It may be that those people were elected. I think it
most likely that each member chooses their Council
member(s) by their own means, but that's just a guess.

Yes there were Starfleet officers on the benches. But
they could have been guests of or advisors to the council
members; Sarek would doubtless give Spock an official
invite, quite possibly Rand too if Spock asked him.

Yes the President steps in on the case, but again he
is likely commander in chief, and so may have the
authority to directly intervene. Remember Kirk and co.
were not charged with breaking civilian law, but rather
Starfleet regulations. It's not inconceivable that the
President could take over such a court martial and act
as judge and jury, especially if the accused had no
objection to it.

&gt; We also know that the president makes arbitrary decisions without consulting
&gt; any form of government, and has Klingons, Romulans and Starfleet brass
&gt; wandering in and out of his office at will without even knocking (TUC).
&gt;
&gt; It comes across as some kind of generally benign dictatorship (so long as
&gt; you haven't got a beef with them since there's apparently no form of
&gt; democratic representation of colonies,

That's not true at all. We have absolutely no idea
what the political relationship between the Federation
and the colony worlds is, we have simply never been told.

&gt; and Starfleet and The Federation are
&gt; basically interchangeable.

It is true that Starfleet acts as the representatives
of the Federation quite often, but this is likely a
necessity given the lags in communication and travel
that we hear of from time to time. Much the same thing
happened a few centuries back when ships operated
weeks or months from home - with no way to get the
approval of the government a ship's captain had considerable
leeway to act on his own. Nowdays we're used to central
authority being responsible for everything because we have
instant communication with the whole world, but that's not
so in the Federation.

&gt; (TNG, that one where Wesley buggers off with the
&gt; Traveller)). And it's clear that if you want to get ahead in life, basically
&gt; you gotta join the military.

I don't see how you justify that.

&gt; I don't actually think this is a specific intention of the writers- it's
&gt; just sloppy writing and a complete lack of concern for creating any kind of
&gt; coherent social backdrop to the series.
&gt;
&gt; I tell ya, if I was president of the Federation, I'd expect a better office.
&gt; And that's one crappy little desk he has... :)

I think it's more that the writers don't especially
want to make the stories about politics - they want to
focus on the heroes, who mostly are in Starfleet.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
<a href="http://www.ditl.org" target="_blank">http://www.ditl.org</a>

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#13: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-12 09:54:38 by Graham Kennedy

Matty-o wrote:

&gt;&gt;It seems from Paradise Lost that the Federation President
&gt;&gt;has direct authority over Earth. Maybe Earth is a special
&gt;&gt;case because it's the capital world of the whole Federation
&gt;&gt;or something?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;--
&gt;&gt;Graham Kennedy
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Creator and Author,
&gt;&gt;Daystrom Institute Technical Library
&gt;&gt;<a href="http://www.ditl.org" target="_blank">http://www.ditl.org</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Paradise Lost is basically what I was referring to when I originally posted.
&gt; The situation in that episode is analogous to President Bush needing an O.K.
&gt; from Kofi Annan before doing something on American soil. It just struck me
&gt; as a little strange.
&gt; I can't remember any canon examples of a &quot;Terran President&quot; in TNG, VOY, or
&gt; DS9. Were there any references to one in TOS?

Not that I know of. But that doesn't mean there wasn't one.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
<a href="http://www.ditl.org" target="_blank">http://www.ditl.org</a>

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#14: Re: The Federation is the governing body of Earth?????

Posted on 2005-05-13 13:49:51 by Feriol

&quot;ToolPackinMama&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:laura&#64;lauragoodwin.org" target="_blank">laura&#64;lauragoodwin.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1185bfvdbckqt2e&#64;news.supernews.com..." target="_blank">1185bfvdbckqt2e&#64;news.supernews.com...</a>
&gt; Jaxtraw wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; There don't seem to be any democratic institutions or proper government
&gt;&gt; at
&gt;&gt; all in the future. All we know is that there's a president, who seems to
&gt;&gt; have autocratic powers. Starfleet seem to have total autonomy
&gt;&gt; (&quot;Conspiracy&quot;)
&gt;
&gt; In TOS, starfleet was the military arm of the UFP. In short, Starfleet
&gt; had to answer to the UFP, and was often sent to do the UFP's bidding.
&gt;
&gt; For example, in Taste Of Armageddon, the UFP ambassador had the power to
&gt; order Kirk around. They were specificaly there on UFP business.

captains usually introduce themselves as part of the federation. &quot;I'm capain
Jean Luc Picard of the Federation Starship Enterprise&quot; and they act as
federation ambassadors, in first contact and other encounters where a
dedicated ambassider isn't available. So starfleets relationship with the
'Government' is much closer than today, where the armed forces only obey
orders, and can't act independantly.

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