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#1: Fidelius Charm

Posted on 2006-07-23 16:32:40 by Thomas Madura

A lot of people are givning properties to this charm that simply cannot
be. SO - again - here is what JKR said about it on her web site and in
the books -

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
SECRET inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it"
(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a SECRET (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
 not even the subjects of the secret themselves  can divulge the
secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.



The operative word here is "SECRET".

THe charmn does not MAKE a secret - it keeps a secret. SO whatever it
protects must be a Secret.

A secret - something that is only known by the "keeper" and those
involved (Say the Potters at the time) is protected. Only the "keeper"
may divilge the SECRET - even the subjects of the secret themselves may
not reveal it.

BUT - it must be a secret. By definition - a secret cannot be something
that is generally known. You could not make a secret that London is in
England for instance - because it is NOT a secret. Likewise - you could
not make a house or address a secret - unless no one else knows about them.

THe Address - 12 Grimmauld place cannot be made a secret - people live
on that street and know where it is. It is not a secret.

It is certainly possible to make a house at that address a secret IF no
one else has ever seen it but the "keeper" and the subjects of the
secret. BUT - the house at 12 Grimmauld place is not a secret either -
because others have seen the house - at the very least Narcissus has.
Remember - the charm does not make something a secret - it prevents a
secret from being told. Therefore - whatever it protects must be a
secret that no one else knows at the time.

Based on the above - the FC charm cannot be the location of Sirus' house.

The "secret" itself is written in OOP -Chapter 3 - last page which says

"The headquarters of the OOP may be found at 12 Grimmauld Place, London."

That means to me that only those who are IN on the secret can find the
OOP there. It doesn't mean that you cannot find the house.

Yes - Sirius' father added enchantments to the house to prevent people
from finding it - and it did disappear to others. That cannot be part of
the Fidelius charm. THe reason why we know this is that the Potters'
house did not "disappear" to the muggles - who knew it "blew up". Again
- the secret had to be that the house was the hididng place - not the
location of the house (ANd JKR states that above).

Report this message

#2: Re: Fidelius Charm

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:22:34 by gjw

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:32:40 GMT, Thom Madura
&lt;<a href="mailto:Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;
&gt;A lot of people are givning properties to this charm that simply cannot
&gt;be. SO - again - here is what JKR said about it on her web site and in
&gt;the books -
&gt;
&gt;&quot;an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
&gt;SECRET inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
&gt;the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
&gt;find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it&quot;
&gt;(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
&gt;
&gt;In other words, a SECRET (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
&gt;the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
&gt;our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
&gt; not even the subjects of the secret themselves  can divulge the
&gt;secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
&gt;Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
&gt;able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
&gt;ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
&gt;directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;The operative word here is &quot;SECRET&quot;.
&gt;
&gt;THe charmn does not MAKE a secret - it keeps a secret. SO whatever it
&gt;protects must be a Secret.
&gt;
&gt;A secret - something that is only known by the &quot;keeper&quot; and those
&gt;involved (Say the Potters at the time) is protected. Only the &quot;keeper&quot;
&gt;may divilge the SECRET - even the subjects of the secret themselves may
&gt;not reveal it.
&gt;
&gt;BUT - it must be a secret. By definition - a secret cannot be something
&gt;that is generally known. You could not make a secret that London is in
&gt;England for instance - because it is NOT a secret. Likewise - you could
&gt;not make a house or address a secret - unless no one else knows about them.
&gt;
&gt;THe Address - 12 Grimmauld place cannot be made a secret - people live
&gt;on that street and know where it is. It is not a secret.


I think it would depend upon whether speaking the address would reveal
the secret.

For instance, here are two different scenarios:

1. Someone who knows nothing about the OotP, asks you what the
address is of the old house on the corner.

2. A Death Eater asks you to tell him where the OotP is meeting.


In the first instance, if you say &quot;12 Grimmauld Place&quot;, you are not
revealing the secret (which is that 12 Grimmauld Place is the meeting
place of the Order), only the address.

In the second instance, if you say exactly the same thing (&quot;12
Grimmauld Place&quot;), you definitely are revealing the secret.


My hunch is that merely speaking the name of address would not be
forbidden so long as doing so did not reveal that it was the secret
meeting place of the Order.

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#3: Re: Fidelius Charm

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:48:29 by nospam

In article &lt;cMLwg.164407$<a href="mailto:mF2.58867&#64;bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">mF2.58867&#64;bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net</a>&gt;,
Thom Madura &lt;<a href="mailto:Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;the Fidelius charm. THe reason why we know this is that the Potters'
&gt;house did not &quot;disappear&quot; to the muggles - who knew it &quot;blew up&quot;. Again

Where is the muggle account refered to? It's been six books, spread out
over a lot of years.

--
Please reply to: | &quot;Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is
pciszek at panix dot com | indistinguishable from malice.&quot;
Autoreply is disabled |

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#4: Re: Fidelius Charm

Posted on 2006-07-24 01:22:06 by dicconf

PoA spoilers

In article &lt;ea0ubt$r14$<a href="mailto:1&#64;reader2.panix.com" target="_blank">1&#64;reader2.panix.com</a>&gt;,
Paul Ciszek &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nospam.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;In article &lt;cMLwg.164407$<a href="mailto:mF2.58867&#64;bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">mF2.58867&#64;bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net</a>&gt;,
&gt;Thom Madura &lt;<a href="mailto:Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;the Fidelius charm. THe reason why we know this is that the Potters'
&gt;&gt;house did not &quot;disappear&quot; to the muggles - who knew it &quot;blew up&quot;. Again
&gt;
&gt;Where is the muggle account refered to? It's been six books, spread out
&gt;over a lot of years.

We learn some things in PS/SS, and some in PoA when Harry overhears
the adults in the village pub, while he's wearing the invisibility cloak.

In PS/SS, Hagrid tells Dd that he got there before the muggles swarmed
around and found Harry in the rubble. So the house was destroyed, and
the muggles were coming, so presumably they heard or saw something at
night that made them think they should swarm around. We assume it was
either an explosion or just the sound of a house collapsing.

Then later in PoA we learn that PP and SB met and PP blew up the street
and a dozen or so muggles. But that was _after_ Hagrid found Harry,
met an upset SB, and borrowed SB's motorcycle. (SB must have been very
confident of being able to find PP without it, or he understood that
getting Harry away safely was even more important than revenge.)

So it seems that there were two loud noises, one at least definitely
an explosion. Also in PS/SS Petunia expects that the house would be
blown up if she left Harry alone, and later says his parents got
themselves blown up. So it seems that JKR intends that there were
two explosions.

The MoM arrived at the site of the SB-PP &quot;gas main&quot; explosion where
muggles were definitely involved, and _that_ was reported as a gas
explosion (after some questioning and memory charms).

I don't remember any muggle reports about the Potter house explosion.
We only have Hagrid's statement that muggles even showed up. Would
the sound have escaped from a charm that would otherwise hide
the house? If so, would Hagrid have even worried about being seen
by the muggle investigators? *He is perfectly capable of walking
around London with Harry so he isn't worried about just being seen
by muggles.)

=tamar

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#5: Re: Fidelius Charm

Posted on 2006-07-24 03:53:03 by Thomas Madura

gjw wrote:

&gt; On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:32:40 GMT, Thom Madura
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;A lot of people are givning properties to this charm that simply cannot
&gt;&gt;be. SO - again - here is what JKR said about it on her web site and in
&gt;&gt;the books -
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&quot;an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
&gt;&gt;SECRET inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
&gt;&gt;the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
&gt;&gt;find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it&quot;
&gt;&gt;(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;In other words, a SECRET (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
&gt;&gt;the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
&gt;&gt;our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
&gt;&gt; not even the subjects of the secret themselves  can divulge the
&gt;&gt;secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
&gt;&gt;Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
&gt;&gt;able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
&gt;&gt;ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
&gt;&gt;directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;The operative word here is &quot;SECRET&quot;.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;THe charmn does not MAKE a secret - it keeps a secret. SO whatever it
&gt;&gt;protects must be a Secret.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;A secret - something that is only known by the &quot;keeper&quot; and those
&gt;&gt;involved (Say the Potters at the time) is protected. Only the &quot;keeper&quot;
&gt;&gt;may divilge the SECRET - even the subjects of the secret themselves may
&gt;&gt;not reveal it.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;BUT - it must be a secret. By definition - a secret cannot be something
&gt;&gt;that is generally known. You could not make a secret that London is in
&gt;&gt;England for instance - because it is NOT a secret. Likewise - you could
&gt;&gt;not make a house or address a secret - unless no one else knows about them.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;THe Address - 12 Grimmauld place cannot be made a secret - people live
&gt;&gt;on that street and know where it is. It is not a secret.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I think it would depend upon whether speaking the address would reveal
&gt; the secret.
&gt;
&gt; For instance, here are two different scenarios:
&gt;
&gt; 1. Someone who knows nothing about the OotP, asks you what the
&gt; address is of the old house on the corner.
&gt;
&gt; 2. A Death Eater asks you to tell him where the OotP is meeting.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; In the first instance, if you say &quot;12 Grimmauld Place&quot;, you are not
&gt; revealing the secret (which is that 12 Grimmauld Place is the meeting
&gt; place of the Order), only the address.
&gt;
&gt; In the second instance, if you say exactly the same thing (&quot;12
&gt; Grimmauld Place&quot;), you definitely are revealing the secret.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; My hunch is that merely speaking the name of address would not be
&gt; forbidden so long as doing so did not reveal that it was the secret
&gt; meeting place of the Order.
&gt;
&gt;


I agree

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