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#1: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:39:42 by Bill Roberts

A pensive is supposed to be the memories of some person. The problem with
the way JKR describes the pensive is like being a new person in the events
going on. The observer can look at the scene from a different location.
For example: in HBP Chapter 20, Lord Voldemort's Request, we look into
Hokey's memories. (She is the house elf of the woman V killed and robbed,
for those who don't remember.) The doorbell rings, and a few minutes
later, "The house-elf returned..." But how can she leave, and then return
to her own memory? How did she know what her mistress was doing? JRK
also describes the scene when Hokey bring the locket and cup as "...Harry
saw two leather boxes, one on top of the other, moving across the room as
if of their own volition." Wouldn't Hokey remember seeing the boxes from
where they were as she carried them. In other cases where a Harry goes
into a pensive, he is always a third party viewer, and often sees things
that were out of sight of the person whos memories they are.

Granted, as a literary device, pensives are a way of telling
important events that happened in the past.

Just a thought. This is the kind of thing you write about in an English
Lit class.

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#2: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:27:56 by Sky Rider

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 22:39:42 GMT, Bill Roberts
&lt;<a href="mailto:billr&#64;klaritykonnect.com" target="_blank">billr&#64;klaritykonnect.com</a>&gt; looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye
and said :

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; But how can she leave, and then return
&gt;to her own memory? How did she know what her mistress was doing? JRK
&gt;also describes the scene when Hokey bring the locket and cup as &quot;...Harry
&gt;saw two leather boxes, one on top of the other, moving across the room as
&gt;if of their own volition.&quot; Wouldn't Hokey remember seeing the boxes from
&gt;where they were as she carried them. In other cases where a Harry goes
&gt;into a pensive, he is always a third party viewer, and often sees things
&gt;that were out of sight of the person whos memories they are.

Because it's magic. &lt;boom, boom&gt;
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

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#3: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:56:10 by Ken

Bill Roberts wrote:
&gt; A pensive is supposed to be the memories of some person. The problem
&gt; with the way JKR describes the pensive is like being a new person in
&gt; the events going on. The observer can look at the scene from a
&gt; different location. For example: in HBP Chapter 20, Lord Voldemort's
&gt; Request, we look into Hokey's memories. (She is the house elf of the
&gt; woman V killed and robbed, for those who don't remember.) The
&gt; doorbell rings, and a few minutes later, &quot;The house-elf returned...&quot;
&gt; But how can she leave, and then return to her own memory?
-snip-

good catch

Ken

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#4: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:13:47 by Sky Rider

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:56:10 -0500, &quot;Here in Minnesota&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; looked at Ron with an evil Grint in
his eye and said :
&gt;Bill Roberts wrote:

&gt;&gt; A pensive is supposed to be the memories of some person. The problem
&gt;&gt; with the way JKR describes the pensive is like being a new person in
&gt;&gt; the events going on. The observer can look at the scene from a
&gt;&gt; different location. For example: in HBP Chapter 20, Lord Voldemort's
&gt;&gt; Request, we look into Hokey's memories. (She is the house elf of the
&gt;&gt; woman V killed and robbed, for those who don't remember.) The
&gt;&gt; doorbell rings, and a few minutes later, &quot;The house-elf returned...&quot;
&gt;&gt; But how can she leave, and then return to her own memory?
&gt;-snip-

&gt;good catch

Not really... Harry himself wonders stuff like this when he's in
Snape's memories.
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

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#5: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:55:34 by Ken

Sky Rider wrote:
&gt; On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:56:10 -0500, &quot;Here in Minnesota&quot;
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; looked at Ron with an evil Grint in
&gt; his eye and said :
&gt;&gt; Bill Roberts wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; A pensive is supposed to be the memories of some person. The
&gt;&gt;&gt; problem with the way JKR describes the pensive is like being a new
&gt;&gt;&gt; person in the events going on. The observer can look at the scene
&gt;&gt;&gt; from a different location. For example: in HBP Chapter 20, Lord
&gt;&gt;&gt; Voldemort's Request, we look into Hokey's memories. (She is the
&gt;&gt;&gt; house elf of the woman V killed and robbed, for those who don't
&gt;&gt;&gt; remember.) The doorbell rings, and a few minutes later, &quot;The
&gt;&gt;&gt; house-elf returned...&quot; But how can she leave, and then return to
&gt;&gt;&gt; her own memory?
&gt;&gt; -snip-
&gt;
&gt;&gt; good catch
&gt;
&gt; Not really... Harry himself wonders stuff like this when he's in
&gt; Snape's memories.

I'll stand by my &quot;good catch&quot;. in Snapes worse memory Harry &quot;knew&quot; he had to
keep in sight of Snape to watch James...

&quot;Harry looked anxiously behind him again. Snape remained close by, still
buried in his exam questions - but this was Snape's memory and Harry was
sure that if Snape chose to wander off in a different direction once outside
in the grounds, he, Harry, would not be able to follow James any further. To
his intense relief, however, when James and his three friends strode off
down the lawn towards the lake, Snape followed, still poring over the exam
paper and apparently with no fixed idea of where he was going. By keeping a
little ahead of him, Harry managed to maintain a close watch on James and
the others.&quot;

Ken

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#6: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-21 05:12:45 by Mauro

&quot;Here in Minnesota&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:6uWvg.398$<a href="mailto:pK5.106&#64;newsfe15.phx..." target="_blank">pK5.106&#64;newsfe15.phx...</a>
&gt; Sky Rider wrote:
&gt; &gt; On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:56:10 -0500, &quot;Here in Minnesota&quot;
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; looked at Ron with an evil Grint in
&gt; &gt; his eye and said :
&gt; &gt;&gt; Bill Roberts wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; A pensive is supposed to be the memories of some person. The
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; problem with the way JKR describes the pensive is like being a new
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; person in the events going on. The observer can look at the scene
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; from a different location. For example: in HBP Chapter 20, Lord
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Voldemort's Request, we look into Hokey's memories. (She is the
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; house elf of the woman V killed and robbed, for those who don't
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; remember.) The doorbell rings, and a few minutes later, &quot;The
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; house-elf returned...&quot; But how can she leave, and then return to
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; her own memory?
&gt; &gt;&gt; -snip-
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; good catch
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Not really... Harry himself wonders stuff like this when he's in
&gt; &gt; Snape's memories.
&gt;
&gt; I'll stand by my &quot;good catch&quot;. in Snapes worse memory Harry &quot;knew&quot; he had
to
&gt; keep in sight of Snape to watch James...

Here's a theory. Scientists say that our eyes and ears -- and I would
presume our other senses as well -- pick up a lot more information than what
ends up in our conscious awareness. Perhaps the pensieve is a collection of
all the information, not just what we noticed at the time. And being a
magical being, perhaps house-elves -- or even wizards -- subconsciously pick
up even more information than normal humans.

Or maybe JKR just messed up, or fudged it a little for dramatic effect :-)

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#7: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-21 05:20:05 by Fish Eye no Miko

Here in Minnesota wrote:

&gt; Sky Rider wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Here in Minnesota&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; looked at
&gt;&gt; Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;&gt;&gt; Bill Roberts wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; A pensive is supposed to be the memories of some person. The
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem with the way JKR describes the pensive is like being a
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; new person in the events going on. The observer can look at the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; scene from a different location. For example: in HBP Chapter 20,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Lord Voldemort's Request, we look into Hokey's memories. (She
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is the house elf of the woman V killed and robbed, for those who
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; don't remember.) The doorbell rings, and a few minutes later,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;The house-elf returned...&quot; But how can she leave, and then
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; return to her own memory?
&gt;&gt;&gt; -snip-
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; good catch
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Not really... Harry himself wonders stuff like this when he's in
&gt;&gt; Snape's memories.
&gt; I'll stand by my &quot;good catch&quot;. in Snapes worse memory Harry &quot;knew&quot;
&gt; he had to keep in sight of Snape to watch James...
&gt; &quot;Harry looked anxiously behind him again. Snape remained close by,
&gt; still buried in his exam questions - but this was Snape's memory
&gt; and Harry was sure that if Snape chose to wander off in a different
&gt; direction once outside in the grounds, he, Harry, would not be able
&gt; to follow James any further. To his intense relief, however, when
&gt; James and his three friends strode off down the lawn towards the
&gt; lake, Snape followed, still poring over the exam paper and
&gt; apparently with no fixed idea of where he was going. By keeping a
&gt; little ahead of him, Harry managed to maintain a close watch on
&gt; James and the others.&quot;

Exactly. Imagine that the intruder in the memory is attached to the person
whose memory it is by an invisible rope. They can move a certain distance
away from the person, but only so far. If they try to get too far away, or
stay still while the person moves, they'd be pulled along to within a
certain proximity of the person.
BTW, while I was reading and replying to this post, Peter Gabriel's &quot;I
Don't Remember&quot; was playing. ^_^

Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
&quot;At least some oboe player got a paycheck out of all this horse hockey...&quot;
-Mike Nelson, _Mystery Science Theater 3000_.

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#8: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-21 06:34:50 by dicconf

In article &lt;IJXvg.14451$<a href="mailto:6w.11002&#64;fed1read11" target="_blank">6w.11002&#64;fed1read11</a>&gt;,
Fish Eye no Miko &lt;<a href="mailto:fisheye&#64;deadmoon.circus" target="_blank">fisheye&#64;deadmoon.circus</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;Here in Minnesota wrote:
&gt;&gt; Sky Rider wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;Here in Minnesota&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Bill Roberts wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; A pensive is supposed to be the memories of some person. The
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem with the way JKR describes the pensive is like being a
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; new person in the events going on. The observer can look at the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; scene from a different location. For example: in HBP Chapter 20,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Lord Voldemort's Request, we look into Hokey's memories. (She
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is the house elf of the woman V killed and robbed, for those who
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; don't remember.) The doorbell rings, and a few minutes later,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;The house-elf returned...&quot; But how can she leave, and then
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; return to her own memory?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -snip-
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; good catch
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Not really... Harry himself wonders stuff like this when he's in
&gt;&gt;&gt; Snape's memories.
&gt;&gt; I'll stand by my &quot;good catch&quot;. in Snapes worse memory Harry &quot;knew&quot;
&gt;&gt; he had to keep in sight of Snape to watch James...
&gt;&gt; &quot;Harry looked anxiously behind him again. Snape remained close by,
&gt;&gt; still buried in his exam questions - but this was Snape's memory
&gt;&gt; and Harry was sure that if Snape chose to wander off in a different
&gt;&gt; direction once outside in the grounds, he, Harry, would not be able
&gt;&gt; to follow James any further.
&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;Exactly. Imagine that the intruder in the memory is attached to the person
&gt;whose memory it is by an invisible rope. They can move a certain distance
&gt;away from the person, but only so far. If they try to get too far away, or
&gt;stay still while the person moves, they'd be pulled along to within a
&gt;certain proximity of the person.

But it's not the narrator telling us. &quot;Harry was sure&quot; - how often
have we seen Harry be sure of something and be totally wrong? Far more
often than we've seen him be right.

I remember JKR saying that you can walk around in a memory and see
what the person wasn't aware of. I think that is partly because it's
a time-linked thing. You aren't just in a memory - in a sense you are
actually there, you're just unable to affect things, like a ghost.

=Tamar

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#9: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-21 10:00:03 by Toon

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 22:39:42 GMT, Bill Roberts
&lt;<a href="mailto:billr&#64;klaritykonnect.com" target="_blank">billr&#64;klaritykonnect.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;A pensive is supposed to be the memories of some person. The problem with
&gt;the way JKR describes the pensive is like being a new person in the events
&gt;going on. The observer can look at the scene from a different location.
&gt;For example: in HBP Chapter 20, Lord Voldemort's Request, we look into
&gt;Hokey's memories. (She is the house elf of the woman V killed and robbed,
&gt;for those who don't remember.) The doorbell rings, and a few minutes
&gt;later, &quot;The house-elf returned...&quot; But how can she leave, and then return
&gt;to her own memory? How did she know what her mistress was doing? JRK
&gt;also describes the scene when Hokey bring the locket and cup as &quot;...Harry
&gt;saw two leather boxes, one on top of the other, moving across the room as
&gt;if of their own volition.&quot; Wouldn't Hokey remember seeing the boxes from
&gt;where they were as she carried them. In other cases where a Harry goes
&gt;into a pensive, he is always a third party viewer, and often sees things
&gt;that were out of sight of the person whos memories they are.
&gt;
&gt;Granted, as a literary device, pensives are a way of telling
&gt;important events that happened in the past.
&gt;
&gt;Just a thought. This is the kind of thing you write about in an English
&gt;Lit class.

The Pensieve records reality somehow, not memory. It's so you ca look
at it forma different POV. SO, Hockey nerve leaves her memory.
Harry/DD never follow her, and witness what was going on the whole
time. had they followed, they'd have seen the rest of what Hockey
remembers.

Ideally, it gathers things from the subconscious, that the owner
doesn't even know they know. But it's not always ideally done. Hence
the magic portion.

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#10: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-21 12:22:43 by Deevo

&quot;Bill Roberts&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billr&#64;klaritykonnect.com" target="_blank">billr&#64;klaritykonnect.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:pan.2006.07.20.22.39.59.649539&#64;klaritykonnect.com..." target="_blank">pan.2006.07.20.22.39.59.649539&#64;klaritykonnect.com...</a>
&gt;A pensive is supposed to be the memories of some person. The problem with
&gt; the way JKR describes the pensive is like being a new person in the events
&gt; going on. The observer can look at the scene from a different location.
&gt; For example: in HBP Chapter 20, Lord Voldemort's Request, we look into
&gt; Hokey's memories. (She is the house elf of the woman V killed and robbed,
&gt; for those who don't remember.) The doorbell rings, and a few minutes
&gt; later, &quot;The house-elf returned...&quot; But how can she leave, and then return
&gt; to her own memory? How did she know what her mistress was doing? JRK
&gt; also describes the scene when Hokey bring the locket and cup as &quot;...Harry
&gt; saw two leather boxes, one on top of the other, moving across the room as
&gt; if of their own volition.&quot; Wouldn't Hokey remember seeing the boxes from
&gt; where they were as she carried them. In other cases where a Harry goes
&gt; into a pensive, he is always a third party viewer, and often sees things
&gt; that were out of sight of the person whos memories they are.
&gt;
&gt; Granted, as a literary device, pensives are a way of telling
&gt; important events that happened in the past.
&gt;
&gt; Just a thought. This is the kind of thing you write about in an English
&gt; Lit class.

From the Mugglenet / TLC interview post HBP, Emerson Spartz (Mugglenet) and
Mellissa Anelli (The Leaky Cauldron).
<a href="http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml</a>

MA: One of our Leaky &quot;Ask Jo&quot; poll winners is theotherhermit, she's 50 and
lives in a small town in the eastern US. I think this was addressed in the
sixth book, but, &quot;Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or
the views of the person they belong to?&quot;

JKR: It's reality. It's important that I have got that across, because
Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want
to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it
together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve.

ES: I was dead wrong about that.

JKR: Really?

ES: I thought for sure that it was your interpretation of it. It didn't make
sense to me to be able to examine your own thoughts from a third-person
perspective. It almost feels like you'd be cheating because you'd always be
able to look at things from someone else's point of view.

MA: So there are things in there that you haven't noticed personally, but
you can go and see yourself?

JKR: Yes, and that's the magic of the Pensieve, that's what brings it alive.

ES: I want one of those!

JKR: Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn't it?
Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you,
so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't
notice the time. It's somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all
of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know
you remember are all in there somewhere.
-------------------------

From that I would think that the penseive magic allows the viewer to be
there regardless of weather or not the the owner of the memory recalls the
specific event either consciously or otherwise. There may be a range factor
involved but that doesn't seem to be dependant on the rememberer's (Is that
a word?) perception.
--
Deevo
Geraldton Western Australia
<a href="http://members.westnet.com.au/mckenzie/index.htm" target="_blank">http://members.westnet.com.au/mckenzie/index.htm</a>

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#11: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-21 15:38:11 by angelahowie

&quot;Sky Rider&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:home&#64;therange.com" target="_blank">home&#64;therange.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:k5a0c2tvi3flidmqfhk13di4ett9hics1p&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">k5a0c2tvi3flidmqfhk13di4ett9hics1p&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:56:10 -0500, &quot;Here in Minnesota&quot;
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; looked at Ron with an evil Grint in
&gt; his eye and said :
&gt;&gt;Bill Roberts wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; A pensive is supposed to be the memories of some person. The problem
&gt;&gt;&gt; with the way JKR describes the pensive is like being a new person in
&gt;&gt;&gt; the events going on. The observer can look at the scene from a
&gt;&gt;&gt; different location. For example: in HBP Chapter 20, Lord Voldemort's
&gt;&gt;&gt; Request, we look into Hokey's memories. (She is the house elf of the
&gt;&gt;&gt; woman V killed and robbed, for those who don't remember.) The
&gt;&gt;&gt; doorbell rings, and a few minutes later, &quot;The house-elf returned...&quot;
&gt;&gt;&gt; But how can she leave, and then return to her own memory?
&gt;&gt;-snip-
&gt;
&gt;&gt;good catch
&gt;
&gt; Not really... Harry himself wonders stuff like this when he's in
&gt; Snape's memories.

I wondered about this, how can all that James, Sirius and co said to each
other be in snapes memory unless snape was eavedropping on them. also the
snitch that James was doodling snape must have been watching them closer
than was normal to have had all this information.

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#12: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-22 02:51:42 by David Harmon

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:22:43 +0800 in alt.fan.harry-potter, &quot;Deevo&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au" target="_blank">mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au</a>&gt; wrote,
&gt;JKR: It's reality. It's important that I have got that across, because
&gt;Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want
&gt;to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it
&gt;together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve.

That is what JKR would like to believe, but unfortunately it
contradicts the book she wrote in which Snape's Pensieve contains
details he _did not observe_ and which therefore cannot be accurate
memories.

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#13: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-22 03:11:43 by Brian

David Harmon wrote:
&gt; That is what JKR would like to believe, but unfortunately it
&gt; contradicts the book she wrote in which Snape's Pensieve contains
&gt; details he _did not observe_ and which therefore cannot be accurate
&gt; memories.

I see a number of ways out of that. One is that wizards have an
awareness beyond the normal five senses, which also gets recorded in
the pensieve. Not canon, but if JKR says it's reality, then I suspect
it's best not to worry about how exactly it has to behave to be made
consistent, and just assume that anything that we see in the pensieve
is real by default. (That is, it has to be overwritten in order to not
correspond with reality.)

--
Brian Tung &lt;<a href="mailto:brian&#64;isi.edu" target="_blank">brian&#64;isi.edu</a>&gt;
The Astronomy Corner at <a href="http://astro.isi.edu/" target="_blank">http://astro.isi.edu/</a>
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at <a href="http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/" target="_blank">http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/</a>
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at <a href="http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/" target="_blank">http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/</a>
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at <a href="http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html" target="_blank">http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html</a>

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#14: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-22 09:59:10 by Toon

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:22:43 +0800, &quot;Deevo&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au" target="_blank">mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; It almost feels like you'd be cheating because you'd always be
&gt;able to look at things from someone else's point of view.

I call that a good thing.

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#15: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-22 09:59:52 by Toon

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 00:51:42 GMT, David Harmon &lt;<a href="mailto:source&#64;netcom.com" target="_blank">source&#64;netcom.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:22:43 +0800 in alt.fan.harry-potter, &quot;Deevo&quot;
&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au" target="_blank">mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au</a>&gt; wrote,
&gt;&gt;JKR: It's reality. It's important that I have got that across, because
&gt;&gt;Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want
&gt;&gt;to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it
&gt;&gt;together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve.
&gt;
&gt;That is what JKR would like to believe, but unfortunately it
&gt;contradicts the book she wrote in which Snape's Pensieve contains
&gt;details he _did not observe_ and which therefore cannot be accurate
&gt;memories.

and the rest of her answer proves there's no contradiction.

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#16: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-22 10:02:13 by Toon

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:38:11 +0100, &quot;Dwayne &amp; Angela&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:angelahowie&#64;REMOVEbtinternet.com" target="_blank">angelahowie&#64;REMOVEbtinternet.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&quot;Sky Rider&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:home&#64;therange.com" target="_blank">home&#64;therange.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;news:<a href="mailto:k5a0c2tvi3flidmqfhk13di4ett9hics1p&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">k5a0c2tvi3flidmqfhk13di4ett9hics1p&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:56:10 -0500, &quot;Here in Minnesota&quot;
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">neverwillicheckthis&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; looked at Ron with an evil Grint in
&gt;&gt; his eye and said :
&gt;&gt;&gt;Bill Roberts wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; A pensive is supposed to be the memories of some person. The problem
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; with the way JKR describes the pensive is like being a new person in
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the events going on. The observer can look at the scene from a
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; different location. For example: in HBP Chapter 20, Lord Voldemort's
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Request, we look into Hokey's memories. (She is the house elf of the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; woman V killed and robbed, for those who don't remember.) The
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; doorbell rings, and a few minutes later, &quot;The house-elf returned...&quot;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; But how can she leave, and then return to her own memory?
&gt;&gt;&gt;-snip-
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;good catch
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Not really... Harry himself wonders stuff like this when he's in
&gt;&gt; Snape's memories.
&gt;
&gt;I wondered about this, how can all that James, Sirius and co said to each
&gt;other be in snapes memory unless snape was eavedropping on them. also the
&gt;snitch that James was doodling snape must have been watching them closer
&gt;than was normal to have had all this information.
&gt;

No, he doesn't need to actually see it to be recorded. it's beyond
what a wizard sees. Also, Snape's used to James antics by now. if he
glanced over and saw them together, James grabbing something in the
air, he'd know automatically it's a snitch, because James had done
this in the past.

A pensieve records reality. Not just a wizard's conscious viewing's.

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#17: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-22 13:46:39 by DaveD

&quot;Deevo&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au" target="_blank">mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:44c0aaf4&#64;quokka.wn.com.au..." target="_blank">44c0aaf4&#64;quokka.wn.com.au...</a>
&gt; &quot;Bill Roberts&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billr&#64;klaritykonnect.com" target="_blank">billr&#64;klaritykonnect.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:pan.2006.07.20.22.39.59.649539&#64;klaritykonnect.com..." target="_blank">pan.2006.07.20.22.39.59.649539&#64;klaritykonnect.com...</a>

....
&gt; From the Mugglenet / TLC interview post HBP, Emerson Spartz (Mugglenet)
and
&gt; Mellissa Anelli (The Leaky Cauldron).
&gt; <a href="http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml</a>

[interview snipped]

&gt; From that I would think that the penseive magic allows the viewer to be
&gt; there regardless of weather or not the the owner of the memory recalls the
&gt; specific event either consciously or otherwise. There may be a range
factor
&gt; involved but that doesn't seem to be dependant on the rememberer's (Is
that
&gt; a word?) perception.
&gt; --
&gt; Deevo
&gt; Geraldton Western Australia
&gt; <a href="http://members.westnet.com.au/mckenzie/index.htm" target="_blank">http://members.westnet.com.au/mckenzie/index.htm</a>
&gt;


I didn't get it at first as I thought it had to be affected by the person's
own perspective even though we do remember things we don't realise we
noticed at the time (eg hypnosis may bring them out - or it may make us
invent them depending on the hypnotist and subject).

Now I think of the pensieve as a little camera bobbing along next to you,
picking up everything going on around you but tethered by a length of
elastic, as it were so you can't wander too far away or go round the corner
out of the line of sight (and hearing) of the subject: you're limited to
their sensory range but can pick up all the details from your own
perspective rather than have them filtered or interpreted by the subject.

DaveD

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#18: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-22 15:41:21 by David Harmon

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 03:59:52 -0400 in alt.fan.harry-potter, Toon
&lt;<a href="mailto:toon&#64;toon.com" target="_blank">toon&#64;toon.com</a>&gt; wrote,
&gt;&gt;That is what JKR would like to believe, but unfortunately it
&gt;&gt;contradicts the book she wrote in which Snape's Pensieve contains
&gt;&gt;details he _did not observe_ and which therefore cannot be accurate
&gt;&gt;memories.
&gt;
&gt;and the rest of her answer proves there's no contradiction.

No, it's just more of the same. If she wanted memories in the
Pensieve to be reliable, then she messed up.

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#19: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-22 19:32:09 by jimhoffa

Reality? I thought it calls them &quot;memories&quot; in the books. That would
indicate a persons concious/subconcious recollections of a period of time,
not what actually occured in that time.

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#20: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-22 19:47:13 by jimhoffa

MA: One of our Leaky &quot;Ask Jo&quot; poll winners is theotherhermit, she's 50 and

lives in a small town in the eastern US. I think this was addressed in
the

sixth book, but, &quot;Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or

the views of the person they belong to?&quot;

JKR: It's reality. It's important that I have got that across, because
Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't
want
to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled
it

together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve.


Ok this really still doesn't clear up the issue at hand. It can be
interpreted one of two ways.

She could be saying it's reality in that it is exactly what the person
noticed conciously/subconciously.

or

She could be saying it's reality in that it is exactly what happened in
that time frame and a given area.

There is still a difference between the two reality's and I think she
failed to address that. What a person notices and how they interpret what
they notice, versus what really is going on, are two entirely different
things. I think Bill's point is that in the stories it is treated
inconsistently and is done so for the sake of giving us information.

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#21: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-23 13:57:37 by Toon

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 13:41:21 GMT, David Harmon &lt;<a href="mailto:source&#64;netcom.com" target="_blank">source&#64;netcom.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 03:59:52 -0400 in alt.fan.harry-potter, Toon
&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:toon&#64;toon.com" target="_blank">toon&#64;toon.com</a>&gt; wrote,
&gt;&gt;&gt;That is what JKR would like to believe, but unfortunately it
&gt;&gt;&gt;contradicts the book she wrote in which Snape's Pensieve contains
&gt;&gt;&gt;details he _did not observe_ and which therefore cannot be accurate
&gt;&gt;&gt;memories.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;and the rest of her answer proves there's no contradiction.
&gt;
&gt;No, it's just more of the same. If she wanted memories in the
&gt;Pensieve to be reliable, then she messed up.
&gt;

Nope, it works fine.

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#22: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-23 13:59:56 by Toon

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 13:32:09 -0400, &quot;jimhoffa&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jimhoffa&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">jimhoffa&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;Reality? I thought it calls them &quot;memories&quot; in the books. That would
&gt;indicate a persons concious/subconcious recollections of a period of time,
&gt;not what actually occured in that time.

But it's magic, so you can see things beyond their owner's
perceptions, as can they. A person sees/hears all, but remember very
little. The penseive helps them see/hear what they missed. If Snape
pulled that memory out the next day, and went into it, and focused on
spying on the Maruaders, He'd have known Lupin was a werewolf.

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#23: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-23 17:34:35 by DM

Toon wrote:
&gt; On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:22:43 +0800, &quot;Deevo&quot;
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au" target="_blank">mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;It almost feels like you'd be cheating because you'd always be
&gt;&gt;able to look at things from someone else's point of view.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I call that a good thing.

When Harry told Dumbledore he thought Snape was in cahoots with Draco,
why didn't Dumbledore just check Harry's memory and see what Snape and
Draco were talking about?

For that matter, why doesn't the MoM just check the memories of accused
criminals to see if they are truthful when they assert their innocence?
Someone could have visited Sirius' memory of the Pettigrew incident to
see if Sirius really killed Pettigrew or not.

I mean good grief, if penseives accurately show actual events, we have
to believe wizards are completely incompetent when it comes to crime,
justice, and security.

--
DM
---

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dm1498 (at) gmail.com
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#24: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-23 19:39:02 by Kish

DM wrote:
&gt; Toon wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:22:43 +0800, &quot;Deevo&quot;
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au" target="_blank">mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; It almost feels like you'd be cheating because you'd always be able
&gt;&gt;&gt; to look at things from someone else's point of view.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I call that a good thing.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; When Harry told Dumbledore he thought Snape was in cahoots with Draco,
&gt; why didn't Dumbledore just check Harry's memory and see what Snape and
&gt; Draco were talking about?

He refused to investigate Harry's claim in any way and Harry found this
very frustrating, remember? Having one more way he /could/
theoretically have investigated it changes nothing.

&gt;
&gt; For that matter, why doesn't the MoM just check the memories of accused
&gt; criminals to see if they are truthful when they assert their innocence?

Same reason they don't always use Veritaserum. We know Pensieve
memories can be faked. Not everyone--particularly not clever, dangerous
criminals--is as clumsy at it as Slughorn.

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#25: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-23 20:44:36 by DaveD

&quot;DM&quot; &lt;dm1498@{REMOVE}gmail.com&gt; wrote in message
news:fGMwg.11916$<a href="mailto:4c7.1942&#64;tornado.southeast.rr.com..." target="_blank">4c7.1942&#64;tornado.southeast.rr.com...</a>
&gt; Toon wrote:
&gt; &gt; On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:22:43 +0800, &quot;Deevo&quot;
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au" target="_blank">mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au</a>&gt; wrote:

....

&gt; When Harry told Dumbledore he thought Snape was in cahoots with Draco,
&gt; why didn't Dumbledore just check Harry's memory and see what Snape and
&gt; Draco were talking about?
&gt;
&gt; For that matter, why doesn't the MoM just check the memories of accused
&gt; criminals to see if they are truthful when they assert their innocence?
&gt; Someone could have visited Sirius' memory of the Pettigrew incident to
&gt; see if Sirius really killed Pettigrew or not.
&gt;
&gt; I mean good grief, if penseives accurately show actual events, we have
&gt; to believe wizards are completely incompetent when it comes to crime,
&gt; justice, and security.


Except as Slughorn showed us, these memories *can* be tampered with, so a
guilty and gifted wizard/witch might be able to beat the test. In his case,
the tampering was very obvious; in the possible case of Voldy tampering with
Dd's memory when he turned up to ask for a job as a teacher (which he surely
knew Dd would refuse) - it was, if it happened, far more subtle.

Of course, that doesn't answer why MoM and Magical Courts don't use
veritaserum to find out the truth - unless there's an &quot;antidote&quot; that can be
taken beforehand to prevent it working...

DaveD

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#26: Re: The problem with Pensives

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:03:10 by gjw

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 15:34:35 GMT, DM &lt;dm1498@{REMOVE}gmail.com&gt; wrote:

&gt;Toon wrote:
&gt;&gt; On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:22:43 +0800, &quot;Deevo&quot;
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au" target="_blank">mckenzie&#64;NOSPAMmidwest.com.au</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;It almost feels like you'd be cheating because you'd always be
&gt;&gt;&gt;able to look at things from someone else's point of view.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I call that a good thing.
&gt;
&gt;When Harry told Dumbledore he thought Snape was in cahoots with Draco,
&gt;why didn't Dumbledore just check Harry's memory and see what Snape and
&gt;Draco were talking about?

Harry had already told Dumbledore what he had heard Snape and Draco
talking about. Dumbledore wasn't worried because Dumbledore had given
Snape specific instructions to keep an eye on Draco. Dumbledore knew
that Draco was trying to kill him (he tells Draco this in the tower),
but he trusted Snape would be able to keep a lid the situation. So
when Harry reported that Snape was talking to Draco, Dumbledore simply
assumed that Snape was doing his job.

Of course, doing Dumbledore's job would have resulted in Snape's
death, since Snape had already taken an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco
kill Dumbledore. Which may explain why the two of them got into the
argument that was overheard by Hagrid.

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