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#1: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-19 22:52:09 by nospam

Madeline L'Engle and Neil Gaiman have both used the line "It was a
dark and stormy night". Has Rowling ever used it?

--
Please reply to: | "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is
pciszek at panix dot com | indistinguishable from malice."
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#2: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-19 23:56:51 by ag30476

Paul Ciszek wrote:
> Madeline L'Engle and Neil Gaiman have both used the line "It was a
> dark and stormy night". Has Rowling ever used it?
Don't think so but check here
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_George_Bulwer-Lytton" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_George_Bulwer-Lytton</a>

and here
<a href="http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/" target="_blank">http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/</a>

&quot;It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents--except at
occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind
which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies),
rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame
of the lamps that struggled against the darkness.&quot;

--Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, Paul Clifford (1830)

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#3: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-20 04:02:09 by gjw

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 20:52:09 +0000 (UTC), <a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nospam.com</a> (Paul
Ciszek) wrote:

&gt;Madeline L'Engle and Neil Gaiman have both used the line &quot;It was a
&gt;dark and stormy night&quot;. Has Rowling ever used it?


No. She has used the word &quot;stormy&quot; a few times (to describe the sky,
a morning, or the color of a hippogriff's feathers) but never the
words &quot;dark &amp; stormy&quot; together. And never to describe the night
(since night is, by definition, dark).

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#4: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-20 04:25:05 by Mauro

&quot;gjw&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:gjw&#64;example.net" target="_blank">gjw&#64;example.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:qsotb2dvimhn156m1ottg1kgv44pb9do4l&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">qsotb2dvimhn156m1ottg1kgv44pb9do4l&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 20:52:09 +0000 (UTC), <a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nospam.com</a> (Paul
&gt; Ciszek) wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Madeline L'Engle and Neil Gaiman have both used the line &quot;It was a
&gt; &gt;dark and stormy night&quot;. Has Rowling ever used it?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; No. She has used the word &quot;stormy&quot; a few times (to describe the sky,
&gt; a morning, or the color of a hippogriff's feathers) but never the
&gt; words &quot;dark &amp; stormy&quot; together. And never to describe the night
&gt; (since night is, by definition, dark).

Go back and reread the very first sentence in her novel A Wrinkle In Time.
Then come back and apologize to Paul for calling him a liar. Oh, by the
way, in case you don't have a copy of Wrinkle handy, go to this link:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_George_Bulwer-Lytton" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_George_Bulwer-Lytton</a> and scroll about
two-thirds of the way down the page. Look under the heading, &quot;Legacy,&quot; and
you will find the following sentence: &quot;It is also the first sentence of
Madeleine L'Engle's Newbery Medal novel A Wrinkle in Time.&quot;

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#5: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-20 04:48:00 by Mauro

&quot;Mauro&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Spamblock&#64;spamblock.com" target="_blank">Spamblock&#64;spamblock.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt;
&gt; &quot;gjw&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:gjw&#64;example.net" target="_blank">gjw&#64;example.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:qsotb2dvimhn156m1ottg1kgv44pb9do4l&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">qsotb2dvimhn156m1ottg1kgv44pb9do4l&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 20:52:09 +0000 (UTC), <a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nospam.com</a> (Paul
&gt; &gt; Ciszek) wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Madeline L'Engle and Neil Gaiman have both used the line &quot;It was a
&gt; &gt; &gt;dark and stormy night&quot;. Has Rowling ever used it?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; No. She has used the word &quot;stormy&quot; a few times (to describe the sky,
&gt; &gt; a morning, or the color of a hippogriff's feathers) but never the
&gt; &gt; words &quot;dark &amp; stormy&quot; together. And never to describe the night
&gt; &gt; (since night is, by definition, dark).
&gt;
&gt; Go back and reread the very first sentence in her novel A Wrinkle In Time.
&gt; Then come back and apologize to Paul for calling him a liar. Oh, by the
&gt; way, in case you don't have a copy of Wrinkle handy, go to this link:
&gt; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_George_Bulwer-Lytton" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_George_Bulwer-Lytton</a> and scroll about
&gt; two-thirds of the way down the page. Look under the heading, &quot;Legacy,&quot;
and
&gt; you will find the following sentence: &quot;It is also the first sentence of
&gt; Madeleine L'Engle's Newbery Medal novel A Wrinkle in Time.&quot;

And now *I* have an apology to make. gjw, I thought you were saying that
Madeline L'Engle did not use that line, because I just recently had this
same arguement with a co-worker. On re-reading, I see that you are in fact
saying the JK Rowling has never used the line, and as far as I am aware, you
are correct.

I am sorry for the mixup.

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#6: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-20 13:55:55 by Toon

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 02:02:09 GMT, gjw &lt;<a href="mailto:gjw&#64;example.net" target="_blank">gjw&#64;example.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 20:52:09 +0000 (UTC), <a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nospam.com</a> (Paul
&gt;Ciszek) wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Madeline L'Engle and Neil Gaiman have both used the line &quot;It was a
&gt;&gt;dark and stormy night&quot;. Has Rowling ever used it?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;No. She has used the word &quot;stormy&quot; a few times (to describe the sky,
&gt;a morning, or the color of a hippogriff's feathers) but never the
&gt;words &quot;dark &amp; stormy&quot; together. And never to describe the night
&gt;(since night is, by definition, dark).
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
It's kind of a cliche now, anyway.

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#7: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:49:08 by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

GJW wrote:

&gt; Paul Ciszek wrote:

&gt;&gt; Madeline L'Engle and Neil Gaiman have both used the line &quot;It was a
&gt;&gt; dark and stormy night&quot;. Has Rowling ever used it?

&gt; No. She has used the word &quot;stormy&quot; a few times (to describe the sky,
&gt; a morning, or the color of a hippogriff's feathers) but never the
&gt; words &quot;dark &amp; stormy&quot; together. And never to describe the night
&gt; (since night is, by definition, dark).

Oh yes she does, and she ~almost~ used &quot;It was a dark and stormy night&quot;:


&quot;It was a very dark, cloudy night&quot; (book 1 chapter 14)

&quot;The weather was getting colder, the nights darker&quot; (book 3 chapter 8)

&quot;A dark, dangerous night in the Forbidden Forest&quot; (book 5 chapter 26)


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!

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#8: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:24:54 by ag30476

Paul Ciszek wrote:
&gt; Madeline L'Engle and Neil Gaiman have both used the line &quot;It was a
&gt; dark and stormy night&quot;. Has Rowling ever used it?

And let's not even mention how HP and the Philopher's Stone is a
complete ripoff of L'Engles A Wrinkle in Time...

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#9: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-21 05:07:12 by Mauro

&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153445093.954273.92990&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153445093.954273.92990&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Paul Ciszek wrote:
&gt; &gt; Madeline L'Engle and Neil Gaiman have both used the line &quot;It was a
&gt; &gt; dark and stormy night&quot;. Has Rowling ever used it?
&gt;
&gt; And let's not even mention how HP and the Philopher's Stone is a
&gt; complete ripoff of L'Engles A Wrinkle in Time...

Okay, I haven't heard that one. Other than the fact that the main
protagonists in both are children, both sets of books are on the &quot;top 100
banned or challenged books of 1990-2000&quot;, and both are fantasies, how is
Philosopher's Stone -- or &quot;Philopher's&quot; Stone, as you put it :-) -- a ripoff
of Wrinkle? I'd love to know what similarities you see...

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#10: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-21 06:04:29 by ag30476

Mauro wrote:
&gt; &gt; And let's not even mention how HP and the Philopher's Stone is a
&gt; &gt; complete ripoff of L'Engles A Wrinkle in Time...
&gt;
&gt; Okay, I haven't heard that one. Other than the fact that the main
&gt; protagonists in both are children, both sets of books are on the &quot;top 100
&gt; banned or challenged books of 1990-2000&quot;, and both are fantasies, how is
&gt; Philosopher's Stone -- or &quot;Philopher's&quot; Stone, as you put it :-) -- a ripoff
&gt; of Wrinkle? I'd love to know what similarities you see...

This group is too easy to troll ;)

The two stories not exactly the same but they have a lot of
similarites. I saw the similarities right away as did many others. The
similarities are shared by many other fantasy/sci-fi books/films aimed
(though not exclusively) enjoyed by the preteen/teen market. Here are
the ones I remember off the top of my head:

1. Orphaned child - parallels preteens/teens fear parental loss
HPS: Harry has lost both parents.
AWT: Meg's father is missing

2. Big Bad Evil Guy is at fault for missing/dead parent
HPS: Voldemort killed James and Lilly
AWT: &quot;IT&quot; has kidnapped Dr. Alex Murphy

3. The hero kid feels lonely - parallels preteens/teens sense of
isolation
HPS: Durseley's bully Harry
AWT: Meg is an outsider in her school

4. The hero kid is average but somehow &quot;special&quot;/has a prophecy that
was unknown (until the adventure starts) - parallels preteens/teens
search for identity
HPS: Harry is not a wizard until he gets accepted to Hogwarts. He's an
average student at Hogwarts. Yet he stops Voldemort (once again).
AWT: Meg seems the weakest of her traveling companions - an &quot;average&quot;
girl. Yet she is told that she is can save her father and brother.

5. Peers seem to have special abilities - parallels preteens/teens
search for identity
HPS: Hermione is super-smart. Ron is part of a big family - the &quot;in&quot;
guy.
AWT: Charles is a genius five year old. Calvin is on the basketball
team - the &quot;in&quot; guy.

6. Awkward first romance
HPS: Ron and Hermione
AWT: Calvin and Meg

7. The funny twins
HPS: The Weasly twins
AWT: The Murry twins

8. Surrogate parents
HPS: Hagrid, DD and McGonogall
AWT: Mrs. Whatsit, Who, and Which

9. The strange visitor - standard mythical tale stuff starts here
HPS: Hagrid
AWT: Mrs. Whatsit

10. The journey to the mythical world
HPS: Diagon Alley and the Hogwarts Express
AWT: Tesseract travel

11. The supernatural
HPS: Magic and mythical monsters
AWT: Sci-fi tech and aliens

12. Revelation of secret, heroic mission which is a continuation of
missing/dead parent's work
HPS: Voldemort is back set to conquer the world for eeevil. James and
Lilly were on the good side.
AWT: Eeeevil cloud is conquering the universe. Meg's father discovered
the evil cloud.

13. Evil power partly defeated in first encounter but hero kid is
almost killed.
HPS: Voldemort is forced to flee when he touches Harry. Harry is
unconscious.
AWT: Meg helps everyone escape. Meg is hurt.

14. &quot;I'll be back&quot;
HPS: Voldemort is still at large.
AWT: Evil cloud...nuff said.

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#11: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-21 06:35:10 by Mauro

&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153454669.540382.234420&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153454669.540382.234420&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Mauro wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; And let's not even mention how HP and the Philopher's Stone is a
&gt; &gt; &gt; complete ripoff of L'Engles A Wrinkle in Time...
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Okay, I haven't heard that one. Other than the fact that the main
&gt; &gt; protagonists in both are children, both sets of books are on the &quot;top
100
&gt; &gt; banned or challenged books of 1990-2000&quot;, and both are fantasies, how is
&gt; &gt; Philosopher's Stone -- or &quot;Philopher's&quot; Stone, as you put it :-) -- a
ripoff
&gt; &gt; of Wrinkle? I'd love to know what similarities you see...
&gt;
&gt; This group is too easy to troll ;)
&gt;
&gt; The two stories not exactly the same but they have a lot of
&gt; similarites. I saw the similarities right away as did many others. The
&gt; similarities are shared by many other fantasy/sci-fi books/films aimed
&gt; (though not exclusively) enjoyed by the preteen/teen market. Here are
&gt; the ones I remember off the top of my head:
&gt;
&gt; 1. Orphaned child - parallels preteens/teens fear parental loss
&gt; HPS: Harry has lost both parents.
&gt; AWT: Meg's father is missing
&gt;
&gt; 2. Big Bad Evil Guy is at fault for missing/dead parent
&gt; HPS: Voldemort killed James and Lilly
&gt; AWT: &quot;IT&quot; has kidnapped Dr. Alex Murphy
&gt;
&gt; 3. The hero kid feels lonely - parallels preteens/teens sense of
&gt; isolation
&gt; HPS: Durseley's bully Harry
&gt; AWT: Meg is an outsider in her school
&gt;
&gt; 4. The hero kid is average but somehow &quot;special&quot;/has a prophecy that
&gt; was unknown (until the adventure starts) - parallels preteens/teens
&gt; search for identity
&gt; HPS: Harry is not a wizard until he gets accepted to Hogwarts. He's an
&gt; average student at Hogwarts. Yet he stops Voldemort (once again).
&gt; AWT: Meg seems the weakest of her traveling companions - an &quot;average&quot;
&gt; girl. Yet she is told that she is can save her father and brother.
&gt;
&gt; 5. Peers seem to have special abilities - parallels preteens/teens
&gt; search for identity
&gt; HPS: Hermione is super-smart. Ron is part of a big family - the &quot;in&quot;
&gt; guy.
&gt; AWT: Charles is a genius five year old. Calvin is on the basketball
&gt; team - the &quot;in&quot; guy.
&gt;
&gt; 6. Awkward first romance
&gt; HPS: Ron and Hermione
&gt; AWT: Calvin and Meg
&gt;
&gt; 7. The funny twins
&gt; HPS: The Weasly twins
&gt; AWT: The Murry twins
&gt;
&gt; 8. Surrogate parents
&gt; HPS: Hagrid, DD and McGonogall
&gt; AWT: Mrs. Whatsit, Who, and Which
&gt;
&gt; 9. The strange visitor - standard mythical tale stuff starts here
&gt; HPS: Hagrid
&gt; AWT: Mrs. Whatsit
&gt;
&gt; 10. The journey to the mythical world
&gt; HPS: Diagon Alley and the Hogwarts Express
&gt; AWT: Tesseract travel
&gt;
&gt; 11. The supernatural
&gt; HPS: Magic and mythical monsters
&gt; AWT: Sci-fi tech and aliens
&gt;
&gt; 12. Revelation of secret, heroic mission which is a continuation of
&gt; missing/dead parent's work
&gt; HPS: Voldemort is back set to conquer the world for eeevil. James and
&gt; Lilly were on the good side.
&gt; AWT: Eeeevil cloud is conquering the universe. Meg's father discovered
&gt; the evil cloud.
&gt;
&gt; 13. Evil power partly defeated in first encounter but hero kid is
&gt; almost killed.
&gt; HPS: Voldemort is forced to flee when he touches Harry. Harry is
&gt; unconscious.
&gt; AWT: Meg helps everyone escape. Meg is hurt.
&gt;
&gt; 14. &quot;I'll be back&quot;
&gt; HPS: Voldemort is still at large.
&gt; AWT: Evil cloud...nuff said.

The similarities you've written about don't make it look like PS ripped off
Wrinkle, it just makes both of them look like they both draw from some of
the same sources, and use a lot of the same stereotypical or mythic elements
that go back almost as far as written fiction. In fact, I think all 14 you
list go back to ancient Greek myths and theater, with the myth stuff -- as
you noted -- particularly prevalent in 9 - 14.

But most of those -- including the myth cycle -- are almost unavoidable in a
coming-of-age story. And aren't most stories aimed at the young teen market
coming-of-age stories? And the myth cycle, as described by Joseph Campbell
in Hero with a Thousand Faces and others, is almost by definition a
coming-of-age story template, so similarities on that level are inevitable.

I thought you were going to suggest that the HP plot arc was ripped off from
Wrinkle, rather than both just sharing the standard mythic architecture. In
other words, both stories follow the pattern of a young, lonely person
discovering they are actually a hero, but the way the discover it, and the
meaning that discovery has for them, are very different between the two
stories.

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#12: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-21 06:49:17 by ag30476

Mauro wrote:
&gt; The similarities you've written about don't make it look like PS ripped off
&gt; Wrinkle,
Of course not. &quot;Ripped off&quot; was intentionally provocative.

&gt; In fact, I think all 14 you
&gt; list go back to ancient Greek myths and theater, with the myth stuff -- as
&gt; you noted -- particularly prevalent in 9 - 14.
Which is what I said.

&gt; But most of those -- including the myth cycle -- are almost unavoidable in a
&gt; coming-of-age story.
The myth cycle part is unavoidable. The part about teenage angst,
missing/dead parents, a trio of teenage friends fighting evil,
techy/mago-tech gadgets is relatively new.

&gt; And aren't most stories aimed at the young teen market
&gt; coming-of-age stories?
Of course.

&gt; And the myth cycle, as described by Joseph Campbell
&gt; in Hero with a Thousand Faces and others, is almost by definition a
&gt; coming-of-age story template, so similarities on that level are inevitable.
Not necessarily. The Odyssey and the Quest for the Holy-Grail are not
coming of age stories though they involve self-discovery which is part
of the myth cycle.

&gt; In other words, both stories follow the pattern of a young, lonely person
&gt; discovering they are actually a hero, but the way the discover it, and the
&gt; meaning that discovery has for them, are very different between the two
&gt; stories.
HPS and AWT are actually pretty close story-wise and style-wise. But
like I said, I sued &quot;rip-off&quot; to intentionally elicit a response.

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#13: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-21 07:00:53 by dicconf

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153457357.249043.193180&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153457357.249043.193180&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;Mauro wrote:
&gt;&gt; The similarities you've written about don't make it look like PS ripped off
&gt;&gt; Wrinkle,
&gt;Of course not. &quot;Ripped off&quot; was intentionally provocative.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; In fact, I think all 14 you list go back to ancient Greek myths
&gt;&gt; and theater, with the myth stuff -- as you noted -- particularly
&gt;&gt; prevalent in 9 - 14.
&gt;Which is what I said.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; But most of those -- including the myth cycle -- are almost unavoidable
&gt;&gt; in a coming-of-age story.
&gt;
&gt;The myth cycle part is unavoidable. The part about teenage angst,
&gt;missing/dead parents, a trio of teenage friends fighting evil,
&gt;techy/mago-tech gadgets is relatively new.

No, the missing/dead parents is absolutely bog-standard myth from before
the written word. It's in major cultural myths all over the world.

The &quot;unusual abilities&quot; element (whether magic, techno, inborn or learned)
also comes from the myths - it's more commonly known as the &quot;strong infant&quot;
part of the story. Two examples are Hercules strangling snakes and his
counterpart in India doing the same.

The powerful and talented friends shows up as the &quot;Six Strong Servants&quot;
form in the study of fairy tales (sometimes Three Servants).

&gt;&gt; And aren't most stories aimed at the young teen market
&gt;&gt; coming-of-age stories?
&gt;Of course.

So were most myths - since many people never lived beyond that age,
and the purpose of most myths is to teach the young people of the
tribe how to behave by using stories of people to imitate.

=Tamar

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#14: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-21 07:05:59 by gjw

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 02:48:00 GMT, &quot;Mauro&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Spamblock&#64;spamblock.com" target="_blank">Spamblock&#64;spamblock.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&quot;Mauro&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Spamblock&#64;spamblock.com" target="_blank">Spamblock&#64;spamblock.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;news:5QBvg.19$<a href="mailto:PN4.18&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">PN4.18&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;gjw&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:gjw&#64;example.net" target="_blank">gjw&#64;example.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:qsotb2dvimhn156m1ottg1kgv44pb9do4l&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">qsotb2dvimhn156m1ottg1kgv44pb9do4l&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt; On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 20:52:09 +0000 (UTC), <a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nospam.com</a> (Paul
&gt;&gt; &gt; Ciszek) wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;Madeline L'Engle and Neil Gaiman have both used the line &quot;It was a
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;dark and stormy night&quot;. Has Rowling ever used it?
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; No. She has used the word &quot;stormy&quot; a few times (to describe the sky,
&gt;&gt; &gt; a morning, or the color of a hippogriff's feathers) but never the
&gt;&gt; &gt; words &quot;dark &amp; stormy&quot; together. And never to describe the night
&gt;&gt; &gt; (since night is, by definition, dark).
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Go back and reread the very first sentence in her novel A Wrinkle In Time.
&gt;&gt; Then come back and apologize to Paul for calling him a liar. Oh, by the
&gt;&gt; way, in case you don't have a copy of Wrinkle handy, go to this link:
&gt;&gt; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_George_Bulwer-Lytton" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_George_Bulwer-Lytton</a> and scroll about
&gt;&gt; two-thirds of the way down the page. Look under the heading, &quot;Legacy,&quot;
&gt;and
&gt;&gt; you will find the following sentence: &quot;It is also the first sentence of
&gt;&gt; Madeleine L'Engle's Newbery Medal novel A Wrinkle in Time.&quot;
&gt;
&gt;And now *I* have an apology to make. gjw, I thought you were saying that
&gt;Madeline L'Engle did not use that line, because I just recently had this
&gt;same arguement with a co-worker. On re-reading, I see that you are in fact
&gt;saying the JK Rowling has never used the line, and as far as I am aware, you
&gt;are correct.
&gt;
&gt;I am sorry for the mixup.

No problem.

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#15: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-21 07:07:50 by gjw

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:49:08 BST, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day
Slitheen &lt;<a href="mailto:bffpds&#64;raxacoricofallapatoria" target="_blank">bffpds&#64;raxacoricofallapatoria</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;GJW wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Paul Ciszek wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Madeline L'Engle and Neil Gaiman have both used the line &quot;It was a
&gt;&gt;&gt; dark and stormy night&quot;. Has Rowling ever used it?
&gt;
&gt;&gt; No. She has used the word &quot;stormy&quot; a few times (to describe the sky,
&gt;&gt; a morning, or the color of a hippogriff's feathers) but never the
&gt;&gt; words &quot;dark &amp; stormy&quot; together. And never to describe the night
&gt;&gt; (since night is, by definition, dark).
&gt;
&gt;Oh yes she does, and she ~almost~ used &quot;It was a dark and stormy night&quot;:


I said she never used &quot;dark &amp; stormy&quot; together to describe the night.
I only did a word search for that combination of words. But to tell
the truth, I am rather shocked that she used the word &quot;dark&quot; to
decribe the night... Good research.


&gt; &quot;It was a very dark, cloudy night&quot; (book 1 chapter 14)
&gt;
&gt; &quot;The weather was getting colder, the nights darker&quot; (book 3 chapter 8)
&gt;
&gt; &quot;A dark, dangerous night in the Forbidden Forest&quot; (book 5 chapter 26)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

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#16: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-21 09:54:25 by Toon

On 20 Jul 2006 21:04:29 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;The
&gt;similarities are shared by many other fantasy/sci-fi books/films aimed
&gt;(though not exclusively) enjoyed by the preteen/teen market. Here are
&gt;the ones I remember off the top of my head:

Then it's not a ripoff.

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#17: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-21 17:25:27 by ag30476

Richard Eney wrote:
&gt; &gt;The myth cycle part is unavoidable. The part about teenage angst,
&gt; &gt;missing/dead parents, a trio of teenage friends fighting evil,
&gt; &gt;techy/mago-tech gadgets is relatively new.
&gt;
&gt; No, the missing/dead parents is absolutely bog-standard myth from before
&gt; the written word. It's in major cultural myths all over the world.

We see missing parents replaced by surrogate parents in stories like
Cinderella.

But more ancient myths don't deal with such teenage angst. Not in
ancient Greece: Hercules, Odysseus and the other warriors of the
Illiad, Jason, Theseus, Orpheus, and so on. Not in the Bible: Adam and
Eve, Abraham, Moses, Christ.

In general, the more ancient the myth, the less the teenage angst.
According to Wikipedia (if you can believe it) the earliest versions of
Cinderella are from China 860 *AD*.

In particular though, the parallels between A Wrinkle in Time and Harry
Potter and the Philosopher's Stone are many. They have more things in
common which each other than they do with for ex Star Wars and
Cinderella. This does not mean that HPS is a direct rip-off of AWT. But
certainly AWT came first and I'm sure JKR read it. And that HPS is in
many ways like AWT is a compliment to AWT by JKR. This does not take
away that HPS is an original work and has (naturally) differences with
AWT and has surpassed (deservedly so) AWT in popularity by a long way.

For ex, you can come up with a fantastic/mythic coming of age story
that is nothing like AWT/HPW. Take Spiderman. Harry gains his wizarding
power through his parents and his specialness through the attack of his
main enemy. Spiderman gains his powers accidentally. Harry is
introduced to his powers by a surrogate parent. Spiderman is introduced
to his powers by accident. The number one enemy kills Harry's parents.
Spiderman's inaction is the cause of his uncle's death. Harry's job is
to stop the main enemy, save himself and the world and avenge his
parents. Spiderman learns that he can't avenge his uncle but that he
has to become a hero nonetheless. Harry is the center of the universe
in his story. Spiderman is not the center of the universe in his story.
Relatively powerless Harry is pitted against an all-powerful evil and
wins often because of deus-ex-machina's. Spiderman is often pitted
against evenly matched opponents and he comes out ahead because of
resourcefulness. Harry becomes popular in his story. Spiderman becomes
even more isolated in his story. Harry gets to enjoy the fruits of
heroship, he wins tournaments and is popular with girsl. Spiderman
looses out the girl to the sportsjock.

Like I said (twice now), &quot;rip-off&quot; was troll bait.

&gt; The &quot;unusual abilities&quot; element (whether magic, techno, inborn or learned)
&gt; also comes from the myths - it's more commonly known as the &quot;strong infant&quot;
&gt; part of the story. Two examples are Hercules strangling snakes and his
&gt; counterpart in India doing the same.

The strong infact Hercules is not the same as the strong infant Harry.
The strong infact Hercules is just an embellishment to the myth - the
myth of Hercules is the myth of grown man. The strong infant part Harry
is part of the making of Harry - it is a key element in Harry's coming
of age story. Harry is more Moses than Hercules.

&gt; The powerful and talented friends shows up as the &quot;Six Strong Servants&quot;
&gt; form in the study of fairy tales (sometimes Three Servants).

Growing up stories don't require talented friends, see Spidey above.
And a story can have all sorts of talented friends for a variety of
reasons. But in AWT and HPS the friends are strking similar and in both
the purpose is to (initially) emphasize the &quot;average-ness&quot; and
&quot;outsider-ness&quot; of the teenage hero. The talented friends in Munchausen
for example don't do that.

&gt; &gt;&gt; And aren't most stories aimed at the young teen market
&gt; &gt;&gt; coming-of-age stories?
&gt; &gt;Of course.
&gt;
&gt; So were most myths - since many people never lived beyond that age,
&gt; and the purpose of most myths is to teach the young people of the
&gt; tribe how to behave by using stories of people to imitate.

Not at all. Myths and oral storytelling were a major form of
entertainment for adults. Many of the themes of more ancient stories
are not appropriate for children. In fact, in many &quot;secret societies&quot;,
certain myths were only learned after coming of age. It is only as city
and middle class life grows, the needs of children as children grows
too. 1000 years ago, your average 15 year old would not be worrying
about first dates or deciding what to become. He/she would already be
busy working or training in a set carrier and would be worried about
his/her one and only marriage which would not be too far away.

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#18: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-22 23:58:12 by Eric Bohlman

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote in
news:<a href="mailto:1153495527.602032.190130&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153495527.602032.190130&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com</a>:

&gt; But more ancient myths don't deal with such teenage angst. Not in
&gt; ancient Greece: Hercules, Odysseus and the other warriors of the
&gt; Illiad, Jason, Theseus, Orpheus, and so on. Not in the Bible: Adam and
&gt; Eve, Abraham, Moses, Christ.
&gt;
&gt; In general, the more ancient the myth, the less the teenage angst.
&gt; According to Wikipedia (if you can believe it) the earliest versions
&gt; of Cinderella are from China 860 *AD*.

That's probably because the whole notion of &quot;adolescence&quot; (as opposed to
the purely physical changes involved in puberty) is a fairly modern
cultural construct.

&gt; Not at all. Myths and oral storytelling were a major form of
&gt; entertainment for adults. Many of the themes of more ancient stories
&gt; are not appropriate for children. In fact, in many &quot;secret societies&quot;,
&gt; certain myths were only learned after coming of age. It is only as
&gt; city and middle class life grows, the needs of children as children
&gt; grows too. 1000 years ago, your average 15 year old would not be
&gt; worrying about first dates or deciding what to become. He/she would
&gt; already be busy working or training in a set carrier and would be
&gt; worried about his/her one and only marriage which would not be too far
&gt; away.

Exactly. The idea of a prolonged period of being not quite a child and
not quite an adult only makes sense in certain kinds of societies,
specifically those in which one requires protracted training/education in
order to become self-supporting. And the primary purpose of that kid's
marriage would have been the creation of in-law relationships (remember
that nuclear families, which made the couple's personal relationship more
important than the expansion of the extended family, wouldn't become
common for another 600-700 years).

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#19: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-23 02:47:20 by nystulc

gjw wrote:
&gt; I said she never used &quot;dark &amp; stormy&quot; together to describe the night.
&gt; I only did a word search for that combination of words. But to tell
&gt; the truth, I am rather shocked that she used the word &quot;dark&quot; to
&gt; decribe the night...

There is nothing wrong with describing nights as dark, since some
nights are much darker than others. Modern city folk are frequently
unaware of this, but there is a big difference between a moonlit night,
a starlit night, and a night with no light at all. However, &quot;It was a
dark and stormy night&quot; is arguably a bit redundant, since all one need
say is &quot;It was a stormy night&quot; and most readers would readily deduce it
was as dark as a night is likely to ever get.

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#20: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-23 05:02:03 by gjw

On 22 Jul 2006 17:47:20 -0700, <a href="mailto:nystulc&#64;cs.com" target="_blank">nystulc&#64;cs.com</a> wrote:

&gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; I said she never used &quot;dark &amp; stormy&quot; together to describe the night.
&gt;&gt; I only did a word search for that combination of words. But to tell
&gt;&gt; the truth, I am rather shocked that she used the word &quot;dark&quot; to
&gt;&gt; decribe the night...
&gt;
&gt;There is nothing wrong with describing nights as dark, since some
&gt;nights are much darker than others. Modern city folk are frequently
&gt;unaware of this, but there is a big difference between a moonlit night,
&gt;a starlit night, and a night with no light at all. However, &quot;It was a
&gt;dark and stormy night&quot; is arguably a bit redundant, since all one need
&gt;say is &quot;It was a stormy night&quot; and most readers would readily deduce it
&gt;was as dark as a night is likely to ever get.

All nights are dark. Some are just darker than others. I wouldn't
mind a comparative description such as &quot;The night was darker than
most,&quot; but simply saying that night is dark tells us nothing.

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#21: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-23 08:51:22 by nystulc

gjw wrote:
&gt; &gt;There is nothing wrong with describing nights as dark, since some
&gt; &gt;nights are much darker than others. Modern city folk are frequently
&gt; &gt;unaware of this, but there is a big difference between a moonlit night,
&gt; &gt;a starlit night, and a night with no light at all. However, &quot;It was a
&gt; &gt;dark and stormy night&quot; is arguably a bit redundant, since all one need
&gt; &gt;say is &quot;It was a stormy night&quot; and most readers would readily deduce it
&gt; &gt;was as dark as a night is likely to ever get.
&gt;
&gt; All nights are dark. Some are just darker than others. I wouldn't
&gt; mind a comparative description such as &quot;The night was darker than
&gt; most,&quot; but simply saying that night is dark tells us nothing.

&lt;sigh&gt;

Okay fine. Have it your way. And it is nonsense to speak of dark
chocolate. One should say &quot;chocolate that is darker than most
chocolate.&quot; And it is nonsense to speak of a &quot;dark-skinned black man&quot;
as opposed to a &quot;light-skinned black man&quot; -- one should say &quot;black man
who is darker-skinned than most black men&quot; or &quot;black man who is
lighter-skinned than most black men but still not as light as a white
man.&quot;

But you know, people have been using the phrase &quot;dark night&quot; for
thousands of years, and they tend to mean exactly what Rowling
obviously means when she uses the phrase: a night that is darker than
most nights. &quot;Darkness&quot; is the absence of light, and a dark night is a
night where most of the light associated with night (moonlight &amp;
starlight) are absent.

Protest all you want, but your way seems awefully clumsy to me.

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#22: Re: Dark and Stormy nights

Posted on 2006-07-23 23:53:01 by gjw

On 22 Jul 2006 23:51:22 -0700, <a href="mailto:nystulc&#64;cs.com" target="_blank">nystulc&#64;cs.com</a> wrote:

&gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;There is nothing wrong with describing nights as dark, since some
&gt;&gt; &gt;nights are much darker than others. Modern city folk are frequently
&gt;&gt; &gt;unaware of this, but there is a big difference between a moonlit night,
&gt;&gt; &gt;a starlit night, and a night with no light at all. However, &quot;It was a
&gt;&gt; &gt;dark and stormy night&quot; is arguably a bit redundant, since all one need
&gt;&gt; &gt;say is &quot;It was a stormy night&quot; and most readers would readily deduce it
&gt;&gt; &gt;was as dark as a night is likely to ever get.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; All nights are dark. Some are just darker than others. I wouldn't
&gt;&gt; mind a comparative description such as &quot;The night was darker than
&gt;&gt; most,&quot; but simply saying that night is dark tells us nothing.
&gt;
&gt;&lt;sigh&gt;
&gt;
&gt;Okay fine. Have it your way. And it is nonsense to speak of dark
&gt;chocolate. One should say &quot;chocolate that is darker than most
&gt;chocolate.&quot; And it is nonsense to speak of a &quot;dark-skinned black man&quot;
&gt;as opposed to a &quot;light-skinned black man&quot; -- one should say &quot;black man
&gt;who is darker-skinned than most black men&quot; or &quot;black man who is
&gt;lighter-skinned than most black men but still not as light as a white
&gt;man.&quot;

That's comparing apples &amp; oranges.

Chocolate ranges from white chocolate to virtually black chocolate.
As such, the term &quot;dark chocolate&quot; makes sense.

In America, most people tend to assume that someone is &quot;black&quot; if they
even have one grandparent who was African-American; as a result, black
people range from almost white to ebony black.

Compare, for instance, Jennifer Beals of &quot;Flashdance&quot; fame
(<a href="http://images.tvnz.co.nz/tvnz_images/tv2/programmes/the_l_word/the_l_word_d.jpg" target="_blank"> http://images.tvnz.co.nz/tvnz_images/tv2/programmes/the_l_wo rd/the_l_word_d.jpg</a>)
with Samuel L. Jackson of &quot;Pulp Fiction&quot; fame
(<a href="http://nohayrosasinespina.bitacoras.com/imagenes/c_samuel_l_jackson.jpg" target="_blank"> http://nohayrosasinespina.bitacoras.com/imagenes/c_samuel_l_ jackson.jpg</a>).
Obviously , that broad range allows for many specific gradations.

In other words, not all chocolate is dark. And not all &quot;black&quot; people
(as the term is used) are dark.

But once the sun goes down, it is dark. All nights are dark. The
&quot;brightest&quot; night is still dark. There is no need to specify that the
night is dark, unless one wants to compare it to another night or
point out something unusual about the level of darkness. Then, it
would make perfect sense to say &quot;with the full moon out, the night was
not as dark as most&quot; or &quot;the moonless, cloudless night was so dark
that I could barely see my hand in front of my face.&quot;

By itself, &quot;dark night&quot; is almost as redundant as &quot;wet water&quot;.

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