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#1: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-19 14:09:06 by Mike Stevens

I've just had a rather odd thing happen (or perhaps I just mean something
that's new to me). When replying to messages on this thread, twice this
morning, I've had an error message saying something like "line 4 too long".
Each time I've created a new post, cut & pasted the subject line, cut &
pasted the content and the result has sent without problem. What's
happening?


--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

No man is an island. So is Man.

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#2: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-19 14:22:27 by Paul Harman

Mike Stevens wrote:
> I've just had a rather odd thing happen (or perhaps I just mean something
> that's new to me). When replying to messages on this thread, twice this
> morning, I've had an error message saying something like "line 4 too long".
> Each time I've created a new post, cut & pasted the subject line, cut &
> pasted the content and the result has sent without problem. What's
> happening?


Probably that you're replying to a thread that is hundreds of not
thousands of entries long. Your browser is trying to honour the
threading as deep as it can, but this is making the "References" header
too long for your news server to accept.

I had this problem with Outlook Express, and I resolved it in the
following ways:

1. Once I'd read everything in the group, I habitually went into the
Maintenance panel, and deleted all messages from the newsgroup. This
effectively reset OE's knowledge of the threading, so it never got too deep;

2. If I couldn't do the above, I then considered whether my message was
worth posting to a thread that was already thousands of messages deep.
If it was, then I took the effort of navigating over to Google Groups,
and posting my response that way;

3. Eventually I got sick of OE and now use Thunderbird. I'm not
convinced that its news handling is better - it lacks many of the
features that OE has, but it allegedly has better killfile capabilities
which is why I'm using it. I haven't had the Reference header problem
since, but that might be because I've trained myself not to respond to
monster threads...

Paul

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#3: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-19 14:36:22 by Mike Stevens

Paul Harman wrote:
> Mike Stevens wrote:
>> I've just had a rather odd thing happen (or perhaps I just mean
>> something that's new to me). When replying to messages on this
>> thread, twice this morning, I've had an error message saying
>> something like "line 4 too long". Each time I've created a new post,
>> cut & pasted the subject line, cut & pasted the content and the
>> result has sent without problem. What's happening?
>
>
> Probably that you're replying to a thread that is hundreds of not
> thousands of entries long. Your browser is trying to honour the
> threading as deep as it can, but this is making the "References"
> header too long for your news server to accept.

Thanks, Paul. It's good to know what's happening. My work-around seems to
do the trick, so I can stop worrying.


--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

No man is an island. So is Man.

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#4: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-19 14:39:13 by mcv

Mike Stevens &lt;<a href="mailto:michael.stevens&#64;which.net" target="_blank">michael.stevens&#64;which.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; Paul Harman wrote:
&gt;&gt; Mike Stevens wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; I've just had a rather odd thing happen (or perhaps I just mean
&gt;&gt;&gt; something that's new to me). When replying to messages on this
&gt;&gt;&gt; thread, twice this morning, I've had an error message saying
&gt;&gt;&gt; something like &quot;line 4 too long&quot;. Each time I've created a new post,
&gt;&gt;&gt; cut &amp; pasted the subject line, cut &amp; pasted the content and the
&gt;&gt;&gt; result has sent without problem. What's happening?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Probably that you're replying to a thread that is hundreds of not
&gt;&gt; thousands of entries long. Your browser is trying to honour the
&gt;&gt; threading as deep as it can, but this is making the &quot;References&quot;
&gt;&gt; header too long for your news server to accept.
&gt;
&gt; Thanks, Paul. It's good to know what's happening. My work-around seems to
&gt; do the trick, so I can stop worrying.

Your workaround also destroys the threading info.


mcv.

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#5: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-19 15:05:45 by Mike Stevens

mcv wrote:
&gt; Mike Stevens &lt;<a href="mailto:michael.stevens&#64;which.net" target="_blank">michael.stevens&#64;which.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; Paul Harman wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; Mike Stevens wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I've just had a rather odd thing happen (or perhaps I just mean
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; something that's new to me). When replying to messages on this
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; thread, twice this morning, I've had an error message saying
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; something like &quot;line 4 too long&quot;. Each time I've created a new
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; post, cut &amp; pasted the subject line, cut &amp; pasted the content and
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the result has sent without problem. What's happening?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Probably that you're replying to a thread that is hundreds of not
&gt;&gt;&gt; thousands of entries long. Your browser is trying to honour the
&gt;&gt;&gt; threading as deep as it can, but this is making the &quot;References&quot;
&gt;&gt;&gt; header too long for your news server to accept.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Thanks, Paul. It's good to know what's happening. My work-around
&gt;&gt; seems to do the trick, so I can stop worrying.
&gt;
&gt; Your workaround also destroys the threading info.

It's the threading info that seems to be the problem.


--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

No man is an island. So is Man.

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#6: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-19 15:08:18 by mcv

Mike Stevens &lt;<a href="mailto:michael.stevens&#64;which.net" target="_blank">michael.stevens&#64;which.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; mcv wrote:
&gt;&gt; Mike Stevens &lt;<a href="mailto:michael.stevens&#64;which.net" target="_blank">michael.stevens&#64;which.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; Paul Harman wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Mike Stevens wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I've just had a rather odd thing happen (or perhaps I just mean
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; something that's new to me). When replying to messages on this
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; thread, twice this morning, I've had an error message saying
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; something like &quot;line 4 too long&quot;. Each time I've created a new
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; post, cut &amp; pasted the subject line, cut &amp; pasted the content and
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the result has sent without problem. What's happening?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Probably that you're replying to a thread that is hundreds of not
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; thousands of entries long. Your browser is trying to honour the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; threading as deep as it can, but this is making the &quot;References&quot;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; header too long for your news server to accept.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks, Paul. It's good to know what's happening. My work-around
&gt;&gt;&gt; seems to do the trick, so I can stop worrying.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Your workaround also destroys the threading info.
&gt;
&gt; It's the threading info that seems to be the problem.

I think it's the way Outlook deals with the threading info that's
the problem. The best solution would be to get a better newsreader.


mcv.

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#7: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-19 16:23:51 by Flesh-eating Dragon

mcv wrote:
&gt; Mike Stevens wrote:
&gt;&gt; Paul Harman wrote:

&gt;&gt;&gt; Probably that you're replying to a thread that is hundreds of not
&gt;&gt;&gt; thousands of entries long. Your browser is trying to honour the
&gt;&gt;&gt; threading as deep as it can, but this is making the &quot;References&quot;
&gt;&gt;&gt; header too long for your news server to accept.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Thanks, Paul. It's good to know what's happening. My work-around seems to
&gt;&gt; do the trick, so I can stop worrying.
&gt;
&gt; Your workaround also destroys the threading info.

Yes. It does that. And in a perfect world there would be perfect
newsreaders - no need to choose the best tradeoff given the
disadvantages of OE versus the disadvantages of whatever is your
favourite reader.

At the end of the day, the occasional destruction of threading info in
very long threads is a minor casualty. Deal.

Adrian.

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#8: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-19 16:53:31 by matt

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:22:27 +0100, Paul Harman wrote:

&gt; 3. Eventually I got sick of OE and now use Thunderbird. I'm not convinced
&gt; that its news handling is better - it lacks many of the features that OE
&gt; has, but it allegedly has better killfile capabilities which is why I'm
&gt; using it.

What (briefly!) are the features that OE has and Thunderbird lacks? I
don't use either, but my long-term list of things to do (which I intend to
work on this summer, but haven't, yet) contains &quot;improve a real
open-source program&quot;[1].[2].

--
Matt

[1] This is /technically/ done, I modified GNU-coreutils' 'date' program,
such that it will transform UNIX seconds-since-Epoch integers into normal
dates, but I haven't submitted a patch or similar yet since I suspect (a)
I'm not confident in my modifications, they were done late at night and
(b) the functionality probably exists elsewhere.

[2] I'd choose to improve Pan over Thunderbird, since I use Pan.

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#9: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-19 17:16:06 by Paul Harman

Matt wrote:
&gt; What (briefly!) are the features that OE has and Thunderbird lacks? I
&gt; don't use either, but my long-term list of things to do (which I intend to
&gt; work on this summer, but haven't, yet) contains &quot;improve a real
&gt; open-source program&quot;[1].[2].


The one obvious one that springs to mind,. since it's directly relevant
to this threwad, is the on-demand &quot;delete&quot; function that gets rid of all
messages out of a given newsgroup. Thunderbird's options seem to
restrict you to selecting from (a) delete read items, (b)delete anything
over 30 days, or (c) delete stuff as it's removed fromt he news server.

Also I can't get it to cache the items properly - it always goes back to
the server to retrieve the messages.

Got a reference for Pan?

Paul

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#10: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-19 23:24:50 by matt

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 16:16:06 +0100, Paul Harman wrote:

&gt; Matt wrote:
&gt;&gt; What (briefly!) are the features that OE has and Thunderbird lacks? I
&gt;&gt; don't use either, but my long-term list of things to do (which I intend
&gt;&gt; to work on this summer, but haven't, yet) contains &quot;improve a real
&gt;&gt; open-source program&quot;[1].[2].
&gt;
&gt; The one obvious one that springs to mind,. since it's directly relevant to
&gt; this threwad, is the on-demand &quot;delete&quot; function that gets rid of all
&gt; messages out of a given newsgroup. Thunderbird's options seem to restrict
&gt; you to selecting from (a) delete read items, (b)delete anything over 30
&gt; days, or (c) delete stuff as it's removed fromt he news server.
&gt;
&gt; Also I can't get it to cache the items properly - it always goes back to
&gt; the server to retrieve the messages.
&gt;
&gt; Got a reference for Pan?

See <a href="http://pan.rebelbase.com/" target="_blank">http://pan.rebelbase.com/</a>
I use it under GNU/Linux, I don't know if the Windows version is any
different . My reasons for using it? Someone here recommended it. I've got
used to it now, and it's so long since I used anything else (properly) I
don't really know what it's strengths are.

(brief investigation of Thunderbird follows...)

Lots of header lines fit on the screen at once (the line height is less
than in Thunderbird). I use the scoring system, articles with scores of
&lt;5000 are flagged with a yellow highlight, &gt;=5000 bright green. 4900
points are awarded for replying to me, smaller prizes are available for
making me laugh etc (so funny people replying to me turn green).
Thunderbird doesn't seem to have this, if it does it looks harder to set
up and less granular. For instance, I don't seem able to filter/score on
the 'References' header.

Thunderbird seems to let you search message bodies, which I haven't found
a way of doing in Pan.

--
Matt

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#11: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-20 20:22:27 by Tim Binns

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:53:31 +0100, Matt &lt;<a href="mailto:usenet&#64;xaxa.eu" target="_blank">usenet&#64;xaxa.eu</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;[1] This is /technically/ done, I modified GNU-coreutils' 'date' program,
&gt;such that it will transform UNIX seconds-since-Epoch integers into normal
&gt;dates, but I haven't submitted a patch or similar yet since I suspect (a)
&gt;I'm not confident in my modifications, they were done late at night and
&gt;(b) the functionality probably exists elsewhere.
&gt;

Bloody hell, that's brave! *Anything* to do with dates and times gives
me the willies 'cos it's all so bloody arbitrary and littered with
edge-cases, special cases and arcane intricacies.

The un-anointed may think that remebering leap years is as hard as it
gets, but i know better, so I take my hat off to yer.

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#12: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-20 20:54:01 by tms

Matt wrote:
&gt;
&gt; [1] This is /technically/ done, I modified GNU-coreutils' 'date' program,
&gt; such that it will transform UNIX seconds-since-Epoch integers into normal
&gt; dates, but I haven't submitted a patch or similar yet since I suspect (a)
&gt; I'm not confident in my modifications, they were done late at night and
&gt; (b) the functionality probably exists elsewhere.

BSD has 'date -r &lt;seconds&gt;'.

--
Thomas M. Sommers -- <a href="mailto:tms&#64;nj.net" target="_blank">tms&#64;nj.net</a> -- AB2SB

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#13: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:02:11 by matt

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:22:27 +0100, Tim Binns wrote:

&gt; On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:53:31 +0100, Matt &lt;<a href="mailto:usenet&#64;xaxa.eu" target="_blank">usenet&#64;xaxa.eu</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;[1] This is /technically/ done, I modified GNU-coreutils' 'date' program,
&gt;&gt;such that it will transform UNIX seconds-since-Epoch integers into normal
&gt;&gt;dates, but I haven't submitted a patch or similar yet since I suspect (a)
&gt;&gt;I'm not confident in my modifications, they were done late at night and
&gt;&gt;(b) the functionality probably exists elsewhere.
&gt;&gt;
&gt; Bloody hell, that's brave! *Anything* to do with dates and times gives me
&gt; the willies 'cos it's all so bloody arbitrary and littered with
&gt; edge-cases, special cases and arcane intricacies.
&gt;
&gt; The un-anointed may think that remembering leap years is as hard as it
&gt; gets, but i know better, so I take my hat off to yer.

I don't deserve much (if any) praise -- my addition was very simple!

I was looking through a log file with Unix-timestamps: 1153432508 etc, and
I wanted to know what day that time was. I couldn't find anything that did
it, so I decided to modify 'date'. Luckily, just adding a new option flag
and pushing that through the Unix-timestamp-to-sensible-format function
was all that was required.

Oh, try
cal 1752
(at any Linux/Unix/BSD/OSX etc prompt).

--
Matt

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#14: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:04:23 by Arthur Hagen

Matt &lt;<a href="mailto:usenet&#64;xaxa.eu" target="_blank">usenet&#64;xaxa.eu</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; [1] This is technically done, I modified GNU-coreutils' 'date' program,
&gt; such that it will transform UNIX seconds-since-Epoch integers into normal
&gt; dates, but I haven't submitted a patch or similar yet since I suspect
&gt; (a) I'm not confident in my modifications, they were done late at night
&gt; and
&gt; (b) the functionality probably exists elsewhere.

date -d '1970-01-01 UTC 1150123456 sec'


If you use csh/tcsh, you can easily make an alias:

alias udate &quot;date -d '1970-01-01 UTC \!* sec'&quot;
udate 1150123456
Mon Jun 12 10:44:16 EDT 2006

Regards,
--
*Art

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#15: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-21 13:07:16 by v$af$ppint

- hi; in afparticle, &lt;<a href="mailto:4i6p1dF2desaU1&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">4i6p1dF2desaU1&#64;individual.net</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:michael.stevens&#64;which.net" target="_blank">michael.stevens&#64;which.net</a> &quot;Mike Stevens&quot; misidentified:
&gt; mcv wrote:
&gt;&gt; Mike Stevens
&gt;&gt;&gt; Paul Harman wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Mike Stevens wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I've just had a rather odd thing happen (or perhaps I just mean
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;something that's new to me). When replying to messages on this
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;thread, twice this morning, I've had an error message saying
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;something like &quot;line 4 too long&quot;. Each time I've created a new
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;post, cut &amp; pasted the subject line, cut &amp; pasted the content and
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;the result has sent without problem. What's happening?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Probably that you're replying to a thread that is hundreds of not
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;thousands of entries long. Your browser is trying to honour the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;threading as deep as it can, but this is making the &quot;References&quot;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;header too long for your news server to accept.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Thanks, Paul. It's good to know what's happening. My work-around
&gt;&gt;&gt;seems to do the trick, so I can stop worrying.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Your workaround also destroys the threading info.
&gt;
&gt;It's the threading info that seems to be the problem.
&gt;
- no; this is a known problem with oe, gravity, [free/] agent
and, indeed, all the other windows-based newsreaders i looked
at/got dipspc-ers [and possibly ds-ers] since wheneveritwas
that i checked out the problem &amp; correct newsreader behaviour
way back in the dim &amp; distant past (well, more than a couple
of years ago - entire *iains* by the standards of the medium):

- a header field [header name + content including punctuation
+ spaces, but not including the final CRLF] _must_not_ exceed
998 characters in length. if after any processing by the news-
reader it would, the newsreader _must_ trim it so that it does
not - and it may trim it, even if it would not - in such a way
as to keep the original news article's message-id and at least
the most recent couple of articles' message-ids, in order.


- iirc, oe is (or at least was then) the most broken 'doze
newsreader, but all looked at failed to trim properly and/
or appropriately in at least one way. some cut to this pre-
cise field limit, ignoring the fact that they leave a part-
news article-id dangling, which buggers up almost everyone
following-up further; some drop whole message-ids from the
beginning of the thread on, others from the end back, until
the field is within the limit, but fail to check that their
adding the message-id of the article being added won't take
the References: field back over the limit - both of which
modes of brokenness can cause problems for news servers as
well as newsreaders; not one behaved correctly, removing
complete message-ids from &amp; including the second-oldest up
towards the most recent, leaving sufficient space in the
field for a reasonable number of further follow-ups' ids
to be added, whilst leaving it possible to trace articles
in the thread back by message-id in the References: field
to before the trimming was done &amp; also to find the original
start of the thread [to then follow forwards, or whatever].


- to permit others' newsreaders to thread correctly by news
article message-id, and other software to correctly handle
your own news article, therefore, when you discover you've
hit this - or your newsreader's lower - limit, you need to
edit the References: line manually, by whatever means avail-
able to you on your computer (a good newsreader will make
this easy to do, although it may require use of an external
editor/wppser), before attempting to post your news article.
i'd suggest trimming between one quarter and one half of the
message-ids from &amp; including the 2nd earliest onwards, as
being a reasonable compromise between making space, and re-
taining references.

- hth, hand - tdwsc!

- love, ppint.
[the address from which this was posted bounces e-mail;
please change the &quot;f&quot; to a &quot;g&quot; and drop the &quot;v&quot; if you
wish to cc. or e-mail me.]

pp.s. - references (of a different sort *g*) include:
<a href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-05.txt" target="_blank"> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usepro -05.txt</a>
para 7.6.1 and rfc1036 para 2.2.5; rfc2822 does not touch
upon the subject and usepro-08.txt merely refers back to 05
--
interstellar master traders 33 north road lancaster LA1-1NS england
lancaster's sf/f/horror role-playing game and book shop
<a href="http://www.i-m-t.demon.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.i-m-t.demon.co.uk</a> +44-781-344-1539 &amp; +44-1524-382181
10(ish) - 7pm (later by arrangement) monday - saturday

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#16: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-21 14:50:00 by Mike Stevens

&quot;ppint. at IMT&quot; wrote:
&gt; - to permit others' newsreaders to thread correctly by news
&gt; article message-id, and other software to correctly handle
&gt; your own news article, therefore, when you discover you've
&gt; hit this - or your newsreader's lower - limit, you need to
&gt; edit the References: line manually, by whatever means avail-
&gt; able to you on your computer (a good newsreader will make
&gt; this easy to do, although it may require use of an external
&gt; editor/wppser), before attempting to post your news article.
&gt; i'd suggest trimming between one quarter and one half of the
&gt; message-ids from &amp; including the 2nd earliest onwards, as
&gt; being a reasonable compromise between making space, and re-
&gt; taining references.

I think I'd probably rather give up Usenet completely than have to do that
in order to reply to a posting!


--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

No man is an island. So is Man.

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#17: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-21 16:14:47 by Julian Hall

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 22:24:50 +0100, Matt wrote:

&gt; See <a href="http://pan.rebelbase.com/" target="_blank">http://pan.rebelbase.com/</a>
&gt; I use it under GNU/Linux, I don't know if the Windows version is any
&gt; different . My reasons for using it? Someone here recommended it. I've got
&gt; used to it now, and it's so long since I used anything else (properly) I
&gt; don't really know what it's strengths are.

I also use Pan in Xandros (Linux). Closest I could find to Forte Agent
(which I used to use in Windows).
--
Kind regards,

Julian Hall
&quot;I'm only on the planet because I missed the bus home&quot;

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#18: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-21 19:40:56 by Thomas Zahr

Mike Stevens posted:

....

&gt; I think I'd probably rather give up Usenet completely than
&gt; have to do that in order to reply to a posting!

Have a look at xnews. It doesn't seem to have a problem with
threading and reference lenghts.

--
Ciao

Thomas =:-)
&lt;www.kochkinder.de&gt;

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#19: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-22 15:07:07 by Mike Stevens

Thomas Zahr wrote:
&gt; Mike Stevens posted:
&gt;
&gt; ...
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I think I'd probably rather give up Usenet completely than
&gt;&gt; have to do that in order to reply to a posting!
&gt;
&gt; Have a look at xnews. It doesn't seem to have a problem with
&gt; threading and reference lenghts.

I have a problemn with threading - I don't like it at all and would much
rather read the postings in chronological order. In an older version of OE
I used to be able select an option to turn off threading, but the current
one I'm using (OE6) no longer seems to offer that option, or if it does, I
can;t find it.


--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

No man is an island. So is Man.

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#20: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-22 16:11:39 by Brian Howlett

On 22 Jul, Mike Stevens wrote:

[snip]
&gt;
&gt; I have a problemn with threading - I don't like it at all and would much
&gt; rather read the postings in chronological order. In an older version of OE
&gt; I used to be able select an option to turn off threading, but the current
&gt; one I'm using (OE6) no longer seems to offer that option, or if it does, I
&gt; can;t find it.
&gt;
View menu &gt; Current view &gt; untick &quot;View Messages by Conversation&quot;
--
Brian Howlett - Email to From: address deleted unseen
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
This place would be a paradise tomorrow, if every department had a
supervisor with a sub-machine gun.

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#21: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-22 16:54:21 by Mike Stevens

Brian Howlett wrote:
&gt; On 22 Jul, Mike Stevens wrote:
&gt;
&gt; [snip]
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I have a problemn with threading - I don't like it at all and
&gt;&gt; would much rather read the postings in chronological order. In an
&gt;&gt; older version of OE I used to be able select an option to turn off
&gt;&gt; threading, but the current one I'm using (OE6) no longer seems to
&gt;&gt; offer that option, or if it does, I can;t find it.
&gt;&gt;
&gt; View menu &gt; Current view &gt; untick &quot;View Messages by Conversation&quot;

Thanks. I wonder why I couldn't find that?


--
Mike Stevens
nb Felis Catus III - currently sheltering from a thunderstorm in Newbury
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

No man is an island. So is Man.

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#22: Re: [I] Using newsreaders // was Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-22 17:10:34 by Flesh-eating Dragon

Mike Stevens wrote:

&gt; I have a problemn with threading - I don't like it at all and would much
&gt; rather read the postings in chronological order.

That must surely make it harder to check whether someone else has
already raised a particular point in reply to a post you are thinking
of replying to, before you reply to it.

&gt; In an older version of OE I used to be able select an option to turn off
&gt; threading, but the current one I'm using (OE6) no longer seems to offer that
&gt; option, or if it does, I can;t find it.

I note Brian has already given the answer to this.

Personally, I find it *extremely* useful to alternate between threaded
and unthreaded view when I please, and consider it indispensible in
any newsreader. I just wish there were a toolbar button for it.

I use threaded view whilst actually reading new posts, but I find
unthreaded view (usually in conjunction with &quot;view all posts from the
last seven days&quot;) useful for certain kinds of manual searches, for
example hunting down a post that I remember reading recently.

Adrian.

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#23: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-22 17:11:18 by Brian Howlett

On 22 Jul, Mike Stevens wrote:

&gt; Brian Howlett wrote:

[snip threading options in OE6]

&gt;&gt; View menu &gt; Current view &gt; untick &quot;View Messages by Conversation&quot;
&gt;
&gt; Thanks. I wonder why I couldn't find that?
&gt;
Well, it isn't exactly obvious. As a non-OE user I had to Google for
it.
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Brian Howlett - Email to From: address deleted unseen
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I owe, I owe, so it's off to work I go...

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#24: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-22 21:39:07 by mcv

Tim Binns &lt;<a href="mailto:binns.tim&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">binns.tim&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:53:31 +0100, Matt &lt;<a href="mailto:usenet&#64;xaxa.eu" target="_blank">usenet&#64;xaxa.eu</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;[1] This is /technically/ done, I modified GNU-coreutils' 'date' program,
&gt;&gt;such that it will transform UNIX seconds-since-Epoch integers into normal
&gt;&gt;dates, but I haven't submitted a patch or similar yet since I suspect (a)
&gt;&gt;I'm not confident in my modifications, they were done late at night and
&gt;&gt;(b) the functionality probably exists elsewhere.
&gt;
&gt; Bloody hell, that's brave! *Anything* to do with dates and times gives
&gt; me the willies 'cos it's all so bloody arbitrary and littered with
&gt; edge-cases, special cases and arcane intricacies.
&gt;
&gt; The un-anointed may think that remebering leap years is as hard as it
&gt; gets, but i know better, so I take my hat off to yer.

You make a very good point. Does seconds-since-epoch actually take leap
second into account?


mcv.

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#25: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-22 23:42:39 by Arthur Hagen

mcv &lt;<a href="mailto:mcvmcv&#64;xs4all.nl" target="_blank">mcvmcv&#64;xs4all.nl</a>&gt; wrote:
[gnu date]
&gt;
&gt; You make a very good point. Does seconds-since-epoch actually take
&gt; leap second into account?

It should, if it had used Arthur Olson time zone data (like e.g. IRIX does),
but it doesn't.
% setenv TZ UTC
% date -d &quot;1997-06-30 23:59:59 1 sec&quot;
Tue Jul 1 00:00:00 UTC 1997

If leap seconds were counted, this should have reported:
Mon Jun 30 23:59:60 UTC 1997

Regards,
--
*Art

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#26: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-22 23:42:50 by raltbos

mcv &lt;<a href="mailto:mcvmcv&#64;xs4all.nl" target="_blank">mcvmcv&#64;xs4all.nl</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Tim Binns &lt;<a href="mailto:binns.tim&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">binns.tim&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt; On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:53:31 +0100, Matt &lt;<a href="mailto:usenet&#64;xaxa.eu" target="_blank">usenet&#64;xaxa.eu</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;[1] This is /technically/ done, I modified GNU-coreutils' 'date' program,
&gt; &gt;&gt;such that it will transform UNIX seconds-since-Epoch integers into normal
&gt; &gt;&gt;dates, but I haven't submitted a patch or similar yet since I suspect (a)
&gt; &gt;&gt;I'm not confident in my modifications, they were done late at night and
&gt; &gt;&gt;(b) the functionality probably exists elsewhere.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Bloody hell, that's brave! *Anything* to do with dates and times gives
&gt; &gt; me the willies 'cos it's all so bloody arbitrary and littered with
&gt; &gt; edge-cases, special cases and arcane intricacies.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The un-anointed may think that remebering leap years is as hard as it
&gt; &gt; gets, but i know better, so I take my hat off to yer.
&gt;
&gt; You make a very good point. Does seconds-since-epoch actually take leap
&gt; second into account?

If it's based on gmtime(), which, confusingly, is in turn based on UTC,
no. If it's based on real Greenwich Mean Time, yes. My guess is the
former.

Richard

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#27: Re: [I] Odd problem

Posted on 2006-07-23 03:44:51 by Arthur Hagen

Richard Bos &lt;<a href="mailto:raltbos&#64;xs4all.nl" target="_blank">raltbos&#64;xs4all.nl</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; If it's based on gmtime(), which, confusingly, is in turn based on
&gt; UTC, no. If it's based on real Greenwich Mean Time, yes. My guess is
&gt; the former.

Misinforming people as usual?
UTC has leap seconds, as it's based on the decay of cesium, which is
constant (with enough cesium).
GMT is (or was) based on the earth's movements[1], and does not have leap
seconds, as it per definition always is correct.

In modern usage, GMT and UTC are identical, and even if using the old GMT
definition, there should never be more than 0.9 seconds discrepancy --
that's when UTC gets adjusted with a leap second.

[1]: The earth wobbles, changes its orbit, speeds up and slows down due to
the influence of other celestial bodies as well as its molten core.

--
*Art

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