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#1: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-13 23:38:25 by ag30476

Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've been
thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow and Privet
Drive and have come to some conclusions.

Given:
1) There is a day between the incident at Godric's Hollow and the time
Hadrig delivers baby Harry to Privet Drive. (This is widely accepted as
per <a href="http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters.html" target="_blank"> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html</a>)

2) Hagrid can't apparate or you can't apparate with a baby.

3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.

4) Then how did Hagrid plan on getting the baby to Privet Drive in time
to meet Dunbledore? Flying on Sirius' bike he hardly got there on time.


Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
transport, most likely a flying transport.


Given the above and:
1) Hagrid does not use or does not prefer to use brooms. And he did not
possess a gryphon or a dragon at the time.

2) He left the means he intended to use at Godric's Hollow at Godric's
Hollow or somehow that is inconsequential.


Conclusion 2: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow on a Thestral. Upon
burrowing Sirius' bike, the Thestral returned to Hogwarts by itself.


Given the above and the following observations:
1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to Godric's
Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice would be to leave the
bike somewhere and apparate, apparating back to the bike if needed.

2) Dumbledore does not go to Godric's Hollow himself to pick up Harry
but sends Hadrig by Thestral (we conclude).

3) McGonogall goes to Privet Drive and waits the whole day for Hagrid.
If she was really worried (or if she was evil) then she would have gone
to Godric's Hollow herself. If Hagrid told her where he was meeting
Dumbledore later, why wouldn't he tell her about Godric's Hollow? It's
not because of the Fidelius Charm. After Hagrid delivers Harry, they
all talk about finding Harry at Godric's Hollow.

4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the Potters at
Godric's Hollow that night? If the secret dies with the Secret Keeper
and the supposed Secret Keeper is still alive and in Azkaban but the
real Secret Keeper is supposed to be dead but is in fact alive, how can
Ron, Hermione, Sirius, Lupin, and others talk later on about Harry and
the Potters at Godric's Hollow? No matter how you slice it, it's not
possible for the secret to be the existence of the Godric's Hollow or
the fact that the Potter's were hiding in Godric's Hollow. The location
of Godric's Hollow must be secret. (Of course, the backfired curse
could have had all sorts of repurcussion including the removal of the
Fidelius Charm. The backfire did almost destroy the house. But then if
the Fidelius Charm is destoryed what explains 1, 2 and 3 above?)

5) If muggles are swarming about Godric's Hollow then why aren't
Ministry of Magic staffers there to hush the incident?


Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
Godric's Hollow before.


Given the above and:
1) Only Sirius knew that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper.

2) Only Sirius and Hagrid (on a Thestral) show up at Godric's Hollow
that night.


Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall, Lupin,
Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.


Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a Thestral
to Godric's Hollow in book 7.


Given the above and:
1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's Hollow
given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from Godric's Hollow?
Dumbledore and McGonogall speak of the celebrations taking place during
the intervening day.

2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius after
leaving Hogwarts. We can suppose that Pettigrew went into hiding after
the curse backfired. And we can suppose that Sirius went undercover
after leaving his bike with Hagrid. So the wizarding world did not here
the news from Hagrid, Pettigrew or Sirius.

3) The Death Eater's continue operating after Godric's Hollow. They
torture the Longbottoms at least two day's after Godric's Hollow. So we
can assume that they are not sure of what events took place at Godric's
Hollow.

4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?

5) Dumbledore did not go to Godric's Hollow or he would have picked up
Harry.

6) Dumbledore knew details about what happened when he was at Privet
Drive (Lilly's sacrifice for example) without having been at Godric's
Hollow or having seen Harry before Privet Drive (if he had seen Harry
before Privet Drive, why didn't he take Harry to Privet Drive). How did
Dumbledore know so much?


Conclusion 5: Someone was at Godric's hollow who told Dumbledore all
that happened.


Given the above and:
1) The person or creature who told Dumbledore what happened at Godric's
Hollow had to know the secret or had to be able to bypass Godric's
Hollow secret location.

2) Certainly Sirius did not tell Dumbledore, he got there at the same
time as Hagrid because Sirius went undercover to search for Pettigrew.
Pettigrew was probably at Godric's Hollow
(<a href="http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters.html" target="_blank"> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html</a>).
Certainly Pettigrew did not tell Dumbledore because Pettigrew was in
hiding (or if he had gone to Dumbledore then he either would have had
no fear of Sirius or Dumbledore would have known the truth). If Lupin
had been there and told Dumbledore, why didn't he rescue Harry? The
same logic applies to Snape. If Snape had been there why didn't he
rescue Harry (if Snape is good) or take Harry to the Death Eaters (if
Snape is bad)?

3) That someone could have been a house-elf, a portrait or Fawkes. All
have the required abilities. But no house-elf or portrait seems likely.



Conclusion 6: Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
Hollow and told Dumbledore everything. Fawkes is magical and
exceptional enough to bypass the protections at Godric's Hollow. Fawkes
is intelligent enough to understand everything that happened that
night. Lastly, Fawkes was trusted by Dumbledore.


Reconstruction: Voldemort and Pettigrew arrive at Godric's Hollow.
Voldemort kills James and Lilly Potter. Voldemort tries to kill Harry
but the curse backfires. Pettigrew leaves (with Voldemort's wand and
perhaps Voldemort). Fawkes is at Godrics Hollow and witnesses all. He
flies back to Hogwarts and tells Dumbledore. Dumbledore assigns the
task of picking up the baby to Hagrid because the Thestral must be used
(that is, it would take Dumbledore the same amount of time to get to
Godric's Hollow as it would take Hagrid). Hagrid tells all to
McGonogall. She waits at Privet Drive because she cannot go to Godric
Hollow's secret location. Dumbledore then informs the rest of the
wizarding world. Celebrations start but the Ministry of Magic cannot
send a cleanup crew to Godric Hollow's secret location. Hagrid arrives
and meets Sirius. Sirius gives Hadrig his bike. The Thestral flies back
to Hogwarts alone. Hagrid takes Sirius bike and flies to Privet Drive.
The 3 flights (Fawkes to Hogwarts, Thestral to Godric's Hollow, and
Sirius' bike to Privet Drive) account for most of the missing day.


Meta-considerations:
This reconstruction also has the added benefit that it explains some
previously unexplained things. For one thing, Thestral's. Why did JK
introduce Thestrals? They really don't add anything to the plot or
characters or flavor unless they are to be used in book 7.

Report this message

#2: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-13 23:53:18 by wadkin2000

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've been
&gt; thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow and Privet
&gt; Drive and have come to some conclusions.
&gt;
&gt; Given:
&gt; 1) There is a day between the incident at Godric's Hollow and the time
&gt; Hadrig delivers baby Harry to Privet Drive. (This is widely accepted as
&gt; per <a href="http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters.html" target="_blank"> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html</a>)
&gt;
&gt; 2) Hagrid can't apparate or you can't apparate with a baby.
&gt;
&gt; 3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.
&gt;
&gt; 4) Then how did Hagrid plan on getting the baby to Privet Drive in time
&gt; to meet Dunbledore? Flying on Sirius' bike he hardly got there on time.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
&gt; transport, most likely a flying transport.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Given the above and:
&gt; 1) Hagrid does not use or does not prefer to use brooms. And he did not
&gt; possess a gryphon or a dragon at the time.
&gt;
&gt; 2) He left the means he intended to use at Godric's Hollow at Godric's
&gt; Hollow or somehow that is inconsequential.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Conclusion 2: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow on a Thestral. Upon
&gt; burrowing Sirius' bike, the Thestral returned to Hogwarts by itself.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Given the above and the following observations:
&gt; 1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to Godric's
&gt; Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice would be to leave the
&gt; bike somewhere and apparate, apparating back to the bike if needed.
&gt;
&gt; 2) Dumbledore does not go to Godric's Hollow himself to pick up Harry
&gt; but sends Hadrig by Thestral (we conclude).
&gt;
&gt; 3) McGonogall goes to Privet Drive and waits the whole day for Hagrid.
&gt; If she was really worried (or if she was evil) then she would have gone
&gt; to Godric's Hollow herself. If Hagrid told her where he was meeting
&gt; Dumbledore later, why wouldn't he tell her about Godric's Hollow? It's
&gt; not because of the Fidelius Charm. After Hagrid delivers Harry, they
&gt; all talk about finding Harry at Godric's Hollow.
&gt;
&gt; 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
&gt; Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the Potters at
&gt; Godric's Hollow that night? If the secret dies with the Secret Keeper
&gt; and the supposed Secret Keeper is still alive and in Azkaban but the
&gt; real Secret Keeper is supposed to be dead but is in fact alive, how can
&gt; Ron, Hermione, Sirius, Lupin, and others talk later on about Harry and
&gt; the Potters at Godric's Hollow? No matter how you slice it, it's not
&gt; possible for the secret to be the existence of the Godric's Hollow or
&gt; the fact that the Potter's were hiding in Godric's Hollow. The location
&gt; of Godric's Hollow must be secret. (Of course, the backfired curse
&gt; could have had all sorts of repurcussion including the removal of the
&gt; Fidelius Charm. The backfire did almost destroy the house. But then if
&gt; the Fidelius Charm is destoryed what explains 1, 2 and 3 above?)
&gt;
&gt; 5) If muggles are swarming about Godric's Hollow then why aren't
&gt; Ministry of Magic staffers there to hush the incident?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
&gt; location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
&gt; Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
&gt; elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
&gt; Godric's Hollow before.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Given the above and:
&gt; 1) Only Sirius knew that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper.
&gt;
&gt; 2) Only Sirius and Hagrid (on a Thestral) show up at Godric's Hollow
&gt; that night.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
&gt; location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall, Lupin,
&gt; Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a Thestral
&gt; to Godric's Hollow in book 7.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Given the above and:
&gt; 1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's Hollow
&gt; given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from Godric's Hollow?
&gt; Dumbledore and McGonogall speak of the celebrations taking place during
&gt; the intervening day.
&gt;
&gt; 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius after
&gt; leaving Hogwarts. We can suppose that Pettigrew went into hiding after
&gt; the curse backfired. And we can suppose that Sirius went undercover
&gt; after leaving his bike with Hagrid. So the wizarding world did not here
&gt; the news from Hagrid, Pettigrew or Sirius.
&gt;
&gt; 3) The Death Eater's continue operating after Godric's Hollow. They
&gt; torture the Longbottoms at least two day's after Godric's Hollow. So we
&gt; can assume that they are not sure of what events took place at Godric's
&gt; Hollow.
&gt;
&gt; 4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
&gt; Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?
&gt;
&gt; 5) Dumbledore did not go to Godric's Hollow or he would have picked up
&gt; Harry.
&gt;
&gt; 6) Dumbledore knew details about what happened when he was at Privet
&gt; Drive (Lilly's sacrifice for example) without having been at Godric's
&gt; Hollow or having seen Harry before Privet Drive (if he had seen Harry
&gt; before Privet Drive, why didn't he take Harry to Privet Drive). How did
&gt; Dumbledore know so much?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Conclusion 5: Someone was at Godric's hollow who told Dumbledore all
&gt; that happened.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Given the above and:
&gt; 1) The person or creature who told Dumbledore what happened at Godric's
&gt; Hollow had to know the secret or had to be able to bypass Godric's
&gt; Hollow secret location.
&gt;
&gt; 2) Certainly Sirius did not tell Dumbledore, he got there at the same
&gt; time as Hagrid because Sirius went undercover to search for Pettigrew.
&gt; Pettigrew was probably at Godric's Hollow
&gt; (<a href="http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters.html" target="_blank"> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html</a>).
&gt; Certainly Pettigrew did not tell Dumbledore because Pettigrew was in
&gt; hiding (or if he had gone to Dumbledore then he either would have had
&gt; no fear of Sirius or Dumbledore would have known the truth). If Lupin
&gt; had been there and told Dumbledore, why didn't he rescue Harry? The
&gt; same logic applies to Snape. If Snape had been there why didn't he
&gt; rescue Harry (if Snape is good) or take Harry to the Death Eaters (if
&gt; Snape is bad)?
&gt;
&gt; 3) That someone could have been a house-elf, a portrait or Fawkes. All
&gt; have the required abilities. But no house-elf or portrait seems likely.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Conclusion 6: Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
&gt; Hollow and told Dumbledore everything. Fawkes is magical and
&gt; exceptional enough to bypass the protections at Godric's Hollow. Fawkes
&gt; is intelligent enough to understand everything that happened that
&gt; night. Lastly, Fawkes was trusted by Dumbledore.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Reconstruction: Voldemort and Pettigrew arrive at Godric's Hollow.
&gt; Voldemort kills James and Lilly Potter. Voldemort tries to kill Harry
&gt; but the curse backfires. Pettigrew leaves (with Voldemort's wand and
&gt; perhaps Voldemort). Fawkes is at Godrics Hollow and witnesses all. He
&gt; flies back to Hogwarts and tells Dumbledore. Dumbledore assigns the
&gt; task of picking up the baby to Hagrid because the Thestral must be used
&gt; (that is, it would take Dumbledore the same amount of time to get to
&gt; Godric's Hollow as it would take Hagrid). Hagrid tells all to
&gt; McGonogall. She waits at Privet Drive because she cannot go to Godric
&gt; Hollow's secret location. Dumbledore then informs the rest of the
&gt; wizarding world. Celebrations start but the Ministry of Magic cannot
&gt; send a cleanup crew to Godric Hollow's secret location. Hagrid arrives
&gt; and meets Sirius. Sirius gives Hadrig his bike. The Thestral flies back
&gt; to Hogwarts alone. Hagrid takes Sirius bike and flies to Privet Drive.
&gt; The 3 flights (Fawkes to Hogwarts, Thestral to Godric's Hollow, and
&gt; Sirius' bike to Privet Drive) account for most of the missing day.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Meta-considerations:
&gt; This reconstruction also has the added benefit that it explains some
&gt; previously unexplained things. For one thing, Thestral's. Why did JK
&gt; introduce Thestrals? They really don't add anything to the plot or
&gt; characters or flavor unless they are to be used in book 7.


Just to address one of your statements....It's quite possible that
Snape was the one who alerted DD to the events at GH, either through
his physically being there and/or through his Dark Mark disappearing
when LV became Vapormort.,

Report this message

#3: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-13 23:59:47 by ag30476

<a href="mailto:wadkin2...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">wadkin2...&#64;yahoo.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Just to address one of your statements....It's quite possible that
&gt; Snape was the one who alerted DD to the events at GH, either through
&gt; his physically being there and/or through his Dark Mark disappearing
&gt; when LV became Vapormort.,

Yes it's possible. But not likely IMHO. Any wizard who was at Godric's
Hollow would have a reason to take Harry (either to DD or to the DE's)
except for Pettigrew who had every reason to hide (for fear of his
life).

And although SS could alert DD to the missing mark, it still does not
explain how DD knew all he knew without going to Godric's Hollow
himself or seeing Harry before Privet Drive.

But I don't claim my argument is absolutely correct.

Report this message

#4: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 02:11:42 by Troels Forchhammer

In message
&lt;news:<a href="mailto:1152826705.026819.109060&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152826705.026819.109060&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;
<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> enriched us with:
&gt;
&gt; Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've
&gt; been thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow
&gt; and Privet Drive and have come to some conclusions.
&gt;
&gt; Given:
&gt; 1) There is a day between the incident at Godric's Hollow and the
&gt; time Hadrig delivers baby Harry to Privet Drive.

Yes.

&gt; 2) Hagrid can't apparate or you can't apparate with a baby.

Hagrid cannot apparate. Though I don't know if it is stated directly in
the books, Hagrid was expelled in his third year, and it would not only
be illegal to teach him to apparate (the ministry certainly wouldn't've
done it), but it is also unlikely that he would have had the magical
skills necessary (Rowling has said something somewhere about Hagrid
still, after book 2, being very inept at magic).

&gt; 3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.

Right.

&gt; 4) Then how did Hagrid plan on getting the baby to Privet Drive
&gt; in time to meet Dunbledore? Flying on Sirius' bike he hardly
&gt; got there on time.

That is not, IMO, the interesting question. Harry &amp; company goes from
Hogwarts in Scotland to London on Thestral-back in what appears to be
about the same time it takes the Hogwarts Express to travel the same
distance (or perhaps a little less -- it is difficult to say exactly
when they leave Hogwarts and when they arrive, but it seems to be late-
ish when they leave, and Harry gets back in the wee hours), so I feel
completely sure that Hagrid had lots of extra time. It is not important
how he had planned to get from Godric's Hollow to Surrey, but rather
what he did in the time when he was not travelling.

&gt; Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
&gt; transport, most likely a flying transport.

Or he was taken there by side-along Apparation (e.g. by Dumbledore, who
would then have moved on immediately).

Or he used the Floo network to Godrics Hollow, and chose to accept
Sirius' offer in order not to have to take the baby to an outsider
wizard home.

Or he was visiting (or stationed) somewhere in Godric's Hollow to look
out for the Potters. In that scenario he had a message from Dumbledore
(possibly by Floo).

Don't forget that Hagrid arrived before anyone else, and any flying
transport would take hours getting there, at which point it would be
too late.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; Given the above and the following observations:

Now you're basing further speculations on your previous conclusion
although these have some consistency problems. It is always risky to
base further speculation on prior conclusions without checking the
first step beforehand.

&gt; 1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to
&gt; Godric's Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice
&gt; would be to leave the bike somewhere and apparate, apparating
&gt; back to the bike if needed.

Sirius wasn't /that/ worried. He had been to check on Peter, and then
went to check on the Potters. He was a flamboyant sort, and thus
preferred his motorbike as his standard means of transport.

&gt; 2) Dumbledore does not go to Godric's Hollow himself to pick up
&gt; Harry but sends Hadrig by Thestral (we conclude).

Shall we not just say that he sent Hagrid . . .

Incidentally I find it difficult to believe that Dumbledore was nowhere
near Godric's Hollow that day, but for reasons unaccounted for he chose
to have Hagrid pick up Harry (what did he want to be unencumbered for?)

&gt; 3) McGonogall goes to Privet Drive and waits the whole day for
&gt; Hagrid.

For Dumbledore, actually (&quot;the real reason she had been waiting on a
could hard wall all day&quot;). She wanted confirmation of the rumours
regarding Voldemort and the Potters.

&gt; If she was really worried (or if she was evil) then she would
&gt; have gone to Godric's Hollow herself.

If she knew to look there.

&gt; If Hagrid told her where he was meeting Dumbledore later, why
&gt; wouldn't he tell her about Godric's Hollow?

Because she wanted Dumbledore and Hagrid didn't know where Dumbledore
would be later. Obviously McGonagall spoke to Hagrid after Hagrid had
been told where to take Harry (at some time during the night).

&gt; It's not because of the Fidelius Charm. After Hagrid delivers
&gt; Harry, they all talk about finding Harry at Godric's Hollow.

That doesn't matter.

You don't think that Narcissa and Bellatrix were unable to speak of the
old Black town-house after Dumbledore put the Fidelius charm over it?
Narcissa communicated with Kreacher, and of course she knew where he
was from etc. Had they tried to go there, however, they would not have
found the house.

&gt; 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
&gt; Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the
&gt; Potters at Godric's Hollow that night?

They open their mouths and make the appropriate noises ;-)

The problem with respect to the Fidelius Charm is that Hagrid was able
to find Harry in the first place -- the rest doesn't matter.

As for that we can suppose one of several things.

A) Harry wasn't really under the Fidelius Charm, and with the deaths of
his parents, he got 'released' from the charm.

B) The secret was akin to the later secret for the Order. Something
like &quot;The hiding place of James and Lily Potter is their house in
Godric's Hollow&quot;. With the deaths of James and Lily and the
destruction of their house, the Fidelius Charm is void (the secret
doesn't exist any longer).

C) Dumbledore had been given a paper (much as Harry was), purportedly
written by Sirius (in order to keep the secret of whom the Secret-
Keeper was), but actually written by Wormtail, that revealed the
secret. Dumbledore showed that paper to Hagrid before sending him
to Godric's Hollow (whether before or after the attack). This would,
of course, alse explain why Hagrid couldn't tell McGonagall to look
for Dumbledore there.

&gt; No matter how you slice it, it's not possible for the secret to be
&gt; the existence of the Godric's Hollow

Of course not -- Godric's Hollow is a /village/ for God's sake! A lot
of people lived there.

&gt; or the fact that the Potter's were hiding in Godric's Hollow.

That, of course, was the secret, yes.

&gt; The location of Godric's Hollow must be secret.

Can't be -- you can't have a whole village secret. Not even of the
Potters' house in Godric's Hollow, would work, IMO. The secret would
have been parallel to the secret on the Headquarters, and the effect of
it was the same.

&gt; (Of course, the backfired curse could have had all sorts of
&gt; repurcussion including the removal of the Fidelius Charm.

Naturally that could also have been the case.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; 5) If muggles are swarming about Godric's Hollow then why aren't
&gt; Ministry of Magic staffers there to hush the incident?

Why should they? As far as they know nothing has happened to alert them
-- a house in some village has blown up, but what's that to them?

&gt; Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow.

Very unlikely. Not only do we see the twins Apparate inside the
Headquarters in OotP, but Mr Weasley tells Harry (as they go to Harry's
hearing) that he usually Apparated to work (though, obviously, we can't
know if he has to step outside the house to do that).

The social ban on Apparation into a house would of course apply, but of
course there couldn't be any general protections against Apparation in
the whole village and surrounding areas -- that would be a dead
giveaway.

&gt; In fact, the location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the
&gt; Secret Keeper.

As said before, I don't think so. And I think it very unlikely that
Hagrid used a Thestral, as it would take too long to get there from
Hogwarts (he might, of course, have been stationed nearby, but that's
another discussion, I'd say).

&gt; Given the above and:

Well, basically I find the above to be, in combination, nigh
impossible.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
&gt; location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall,
&gt; Lupin, Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.

I've already demonstrated how Dumbledore and Hagrid could have known
the secret without knowing who the Secret-Keeper was, but the secret
had only been in place for about a week, so it's probably very limited
how many people could have been told (i.e. shown the hypothetical
letter).

&gt; Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a
&gt; Thestral to Godric's Hollow in book 7.

Harry has already expressed his wish to go there, so he doesn't need
Hagrid's encouragement. As Harry (as far as we know) doesn't know how
to find Godric's Hollow, and since he (again as far as we know) hasn't
had any classes in aerial navigation, he might need the navigational
talents of a Thestral, but not because of any Fidelius Charms or anti-
apparating barriers.

&gt; Given the above and:

I'm sorry, but as far as I am concerned, anything that relies on your
above conclusions must by default be false, as the house of cards has
not only grown shaky, but has already fallen.

&gt; 1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's
&gt; Hollow given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from
&gt; Godric's Hollow?

You are mistakenly assuming that Hagrid spent a lot of time en route,
but his fast arrival (/before/ Sirius and any Muggles) proves
otherwise. And, knowing Hagrid (and his wagging tongue), it wouldn't
last long before the rumour got started -- enough to have the wizard
world out on the streets the next morning.

&gt; 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius
&gt; after leaving Hogwarts.

I see no reason to suppose any such thing. He definitely spoke with
McGonagall, and, given Hagrid's nature, it would even seem unlikely
that he didn't meet anyone else (pining for a small one -- &quot;I on'y had
one gallon, I swear!&quot;)

&gt; We can suppose that Pettigrew went into hiding after the curse
&gt; backfired.

Of course -- as is stated abundantly in PoA he knew that he would be
hunted by both Death Eaters and the Order of the Phoenix (he must have
counted on Sirius telling the others).

&gt; And we can suppose that Sirius went undercover after leaving his
&gt; bike with Hagrid.

No. Sirius went after Peter and caught up with him at some point the
next day (PoA) while there was still many Muggles in the streets, so
definitely /before/ Harry was given to the Dursleys.

But Sirius didn't have any reason to stay away from other wizards at
that point, even if he didn't want to announce his arrival to Peter by
using his motorbike.

&gt; So the wizarding world did not here the news from Hagrid, Pettigrew
&gt; or Sirius.

Not Pettigrew, anyway. For the other two the conclusion is without
basis, IMO.

&gt; 3) The Death Eater's continue operating after Godric's Hollow.

Yes, obviously. You cannot, however, assume that they operated as a
coherent organisation any more. More likely it was smaller groups of
people who did know each other as Death Eaters (remember that they
didn't all know each other).

&gt; They torture the Longbottoms at least two day's after Godric's
&gt; Hollow. So we can assume that they are not sure of what events
&gt; took place at Godric's Hollow.

Of course not -- the majority of the magical community had it wrong,
didn't they. They believed that Voldemort was dead, but the Death
Eaters had reasons to believe otherwise (and then, many among them
apparently also believed him dead).

&gt; 4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
&gt; Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?

That is anybody's guess. As far as I know, there is no indication of
how Dumbledore would know, unless he had a spy installed in Godric's
Hollow to watch over the Potters (whom he obviously knew were staying
in the village).

&gt; 5) Dumbledore did not go to Godric's Hollow or he would have
&gt; picked up Harry.

I don't agree with that. Dumbledore would not pick up Harry himself if
carrying a baby around was likely to become cumbersome. As I have said
earlier, I find it very difficult to believe that Dumbledore did /not/
go to Godric's Hollow -- his knowledge of the events is too complete
for him not to have gone there himself to investigate the crime scene
(remember the scenes in the cave in HBP, how Dumbledore is capable of
finding and analysing traces of magic).

&lt;snip rest&gt;

The remainder, building upon an already fallacious (IMO) foundation
doesn't contain anything real to build upon. It is quite possibly that
Dumbledore had a spy in Godric's Hollow, but either that spy must have
known the secret, or he cannot have known what happened prior to the
explosion. It is, IMO, more likely that Dumbledore reached his
conclusions through a careful investigation of the scene (heavily aided
by the author).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is &lt;t.forch(a)email.dk&gt;

To make a name for learning
when other roads are barred,
take something very easy
and make it very hard.
- Piet Hein, /Wide Road/

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#5: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 03:27:34 by ag30476

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
&gt; &gt; 4) Then how did Hagrid plan on getting the baby to Privet Drive
&gt; &gt; in time to meet Dunbledore? Flying on Sirius' bike he hardly
&gt; &gt; got there on time.
&gt;
&gt; That is not, IMO, the interesting question...It is not important
&gt; how he had planned to get from Godric's Hollow to Surrey, but rather
&gt; what he did in the time when he was not travelling.
It's not necessarily an important question but just how did he plan to
go back?

&gt; &gt; Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
&gt; &gt; transport, most likely a flying transport.
&gt;
&gt; Or he was taken there by side-along Apparation (e.g. by Dumbledore, who
&gt; would then have moved on immediately).
Then why didn't Dumbledore go himself?

&gt; Or he used the Floo network to Godrics Hollow, and chose to accept
&gt; Sirius' offer in order not to have to take the baby to an outsider
&gt; wizard home.
If the Floo network was operating to GH why didn't Lilly and Harry Floo
out of there? OK maybe there is no Floo network IN GH or you can't Floo
with a baby? Why didn't Sirius Floo to GH? Floo is certainly faster
than his bike.

&gt; Or he was visiting (or stationed) somewhere in Godric's Hollow to look
&gt; out for the Potters. In that scenario he had a message from Dumbledore
&gt; (possibly by Floo).
If Hagrid was near GH then we must suppose McGonogall was near GH too.
Otherwise, he could not tell McGonogall. Why would both Hagrid and
McGonogall be near GH? Or maybeHagrid was near GH, goes to Hogwarts,
tells McG, then goes back to GH. Simple, no? Regardless, DD has to send
a message to Hagrid (no supposedly stationed near GH) to pick up Harry
and go to Privet Drive? How does DD now Harry is alive without going to
GH himself? Hagrid at that point cannot know Harry is alive (stationed
near GH and before DD's message). And, again, what means is Hagrid
going to use to get from GH to Privet Drive (before he meets unintendly
with Sirius)?

&gt; Don't forget that Hagrid arrived before anyone else, and any flying
&gt; transport would take hours getting there, at which point it would be
&gt; too late.
Good point. Sirius Black probably thought the same when he discovered
to fly on his bike to GH after discovering Pettigrew is not where he is
supposed to be. Yet Sirius flies to GH getting there only moments after
Hagrid.

&gt; Now you're basing further speculations on your previous conclusion
&gt; although these have some consistency problems. It is always risky to
&gt; base further speculation on prior conclusions without checking the
&gt; first step beforehand.
That is, admittedly, a problem with the conclusions I posted. But any
reconstruction must involve deductions from what is written and then
further deductions after that.

&gt; &gt; 1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to
&gt; &gt; Godric's Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice
&gt; &gt; would be to leave the bike somewhere and apparate, apparating
&gt; &gt; back to the bike if needed.
&gt;
&gt; Sirius wasn't /that/ worried. He had been to check on Peter, and then
&gt; went to check on the Potters. He was a flamboyant sort, and thus
&gt; preferred his motorbike as his standard means of transport.
Sirius is flamboyant but this is a life and death matter. Sirius'
flamboyance may have cost the lives of James and Lilly. That's not
explored much in the guilt that the major character have over the death
of the Potters. Rather, most worry about misplaced trust (Sirius on
Pettigrew, James and Sirius against Lupin, Snape on Voldemort, etc.)

&gt; &gt; 2) Dumbledore does not go to Godric's Hollow himself to pick up
&gt; &gt; Harry but sends Hadrig by Thestral (we conclude).
&gt;
&gt; Shall we not just say that he sent Hagrid . . .
That leaves a lot to be explained. Hagrid is a much worse choice to
pick up Harry and would could be more important than picking up Harry
and going to the scene of the crime to see what happened. Hagrid can't
perform any serious magic. Hagrid can't fly or apparate by himself.
Hagrid can't explore GH for clues as to what happened.

&gt; Incidentally I find it difficult to believe that Dumbledore was nowhere
&gt; near Godric's Hollow that day, but for reasons unaccounted for he chose
&gt; to have Hagrid pick up Harry (what did he want to be unencumbered for?)
Yes it is hard to believe that DD was not near GH but according to the
canon there is no evidence (of course this does not mean he wasn't as
you suppose). And curiously we are left, as you say, with &quot;unaccounted&quot;
for why he did not pick up Harry himself. My attempt (however weak) is
to explain that DD could not be at GH (because the location of GH is
the secret).

&gt; &gt; 3) McGonogall goes to Privet Drive and waits the whole day for
&gt; &gt; Hagrid.
&gt; For Dumbledore, actually (&quot;the real reason she had been waiting on a
&gt; could hard wall all day&quot;). She wanted confirmation of the rumours
&gt; regarding Voldemort and the Potters.
Well actually I meant &quot;waist the whole day for DD (or for Hagrid if McG
is evil)&quot;


&gt; &gt; If she was really worried (or if she was evil) then she would
&gt; &gt; have gone to Godric's Hollow herself.
&gt;
&gt; If she knew to look there.
Yes or if she knew how to get there. But if she did not know to look
there then we must suppose that Hadrig spilled the beans (as he is apt
to do) about everything except that he was first going to GH. How
convenient for the plot.

&gt; &gt; If Hagrid told her where he was meeting Dumbledore later, why
&gt; &gt; wouldn't he tell her about Godric's Hollow?
&gt;
&gt; Because she wanted Dumbledore and Hagrid didn't know where Dumbledore
&gt; would be later. Obviously McGonagall spoke to Hagrid after Hagrid had
&gt; been told where to take Harry (at some time during the night).
She waited the whole day at one spot to find her headmaster and fellow
member of the OotP? She had no way to find or communicate with DD? She
could not send him an owl?

I will admit that my logic works better if McG is evil. (But it's not
necessary that McG be evil.)

&gt; &gt; It's not because of the Fidelius Charm. After Hagrid delivers
&gt; &gt; Harry, they all talk about finding Harry at Godric's Hollow.
&gt;
&gt; That doesn't matter.
&gt;
&gt; You don't think that Narcissa and Bellatrix were unable to speak of the
&gt; old Black town-house after Dumbledore put the Fidelius charm over it?
&gt; Narcissa communicated with Kreacher, and of course she knew where he
&gt; was from etc. Had they tried to go there, however, they would not have
&gt; found the house.
Thanks for agreeing. The secret is not the hiding place but the
location of the hiding place. (Yes this means exceptionally powerful
Fidelius charm can hide the location of the well-known GH from the
entire wizarding world)

&gt; &gt; 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
&gt; &gt; Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the
&gt; &gt; Potters at Godric's Hollow that night?
&gt;
&gt; They open their mouths and make the appropriate noises ;-)
&gt;
&gt; The problem with respect to the Fidelius Charm is that Hagrid was able
&gt; to find Harry in the first place -- the rest doesn't matter.
&gt;
&gt; As for that we can suppose one of several things.
Yes that is a problem. Certainly other things can be supposed. Like for
example, the Hagrid was in on the secret. But that seems unlikely to
me. If Hagrid knew the location then certainly DD would have known. But
if DD knew how to get to GH then why did he not go himself?

&gt; A) Harry wasn't really under the Fidelius Charm, and with the deaths of
&gt; his parents, he got 'released' from the charm.
That seems a strange secret don't it, hiding only James and Lilly but
not Harry.

&gt; B) The secret was akin to the later secret for the Order. Something
&gt; like &quot;The hiding place of James and Lily Potter is their house in
&gt; Godric's Hollow&quot;. With the deaths of James and Lily and the
&gt; destruction of their house, the Fidelius Charm is void (the secret
&gt; doesn't exist any longer).
That's the same as A. It would be strange to hide the location of James
and Lilly bt not Harry (Voldemort's ultimate target).

&gt; C) Dumbledore had been given a paper (much as Harry was), purportedly
&gt; written by Sirius (in order to keep the secret of whom the Secret-
&gt; Keeper was), but actually written by Wormtail, that revealed the
&gt; secret. Dumbledore showed that paper to Hagrid before sending him
&gt; to Godric's Hollow (whether before or after the attack). This would,
&gt; of course, alse explain why Hagrid couldn't tell McGonagall to look
&gt; for Dumbledore there.
That would work to let Hagrid get to GH. But then that would mean the
secret is known by DD. Which raises again of why DD didn't go himself.
Actually, it has been supposed (I think on mugglenet) that Sirius
handed out the papers (to DD and others) thereby perpetuating the false
impression that he, Sirius, was the secret keeper.


&gt; &gt; No matter how you slice it, it's not possible for the secret to be
&gt; &gt; the existence of the Godric's Hollow
&gt;
&gt; Of course not -- Godric's Hollow is a /village/ for God's sake! A lot
&gt; of people lived there.
Right.

&gt; &gt; or the fact that the Potter's were hiding in Godric's Hollow.
&gt;
&gt; That, of course, was the secret, yes.
If that is the secret (the fact that Harry was hidden in GH) then
people could not talk about the fact that the Harry was hidden in GH
unless we suppose that the secret is that Harry's parents were hiding
in GH and their (Harry's parents) death broke the charm - a very
strange secret as I have said. Or you have to suppose that the secret
did protect the fact the Harry was hidden in GH but the secret is
broken by the backfired curse. But then we would not have to suppose
that Hagrid would have to be shown a piece of paper or that McG could
not be told about GH by Hagrid or that DD could not travel to GH
himself.

&gt; &gt; The location of Godric's Hollow must be secret.
&gt;
&gt; Can't be -- you can't have a whole village secret. Not even of the
&gt; Potters' house in Godric's Hollow, would work, IMO. The secret would
&gt; have been parallel to the secret on the Headquarters, and the effect of
&gt; it was the same.
It does parallel 12 Grimaud. If you try to go to GH, you can't find it.

&gt; &gt; (Of course, the backfired curse could have had all sorts of
&gt; &gt; repurcussion including the removal of the Fidelius Charm.
&gt;
&gt; Naturally that could also have been the case.
But if it was it still does not explain why DD then did not got to GH
or why McG did not go to GH herself. If she had gone to GH herself, she
could have confirmed at least some of the things that DD tells her
hours later.

&gt; &gt; 5) If muggles are swarming about Godric's Hollow then why aren't
&gt; &gt; Ministry of Magic staffers there to hush the incident?
&gt;
&gt; Why should they? As far as they know nothing has happened to alert them
&gt; -- a house in some village has blown up, but what's that to them?
The Ministry seems to know right away when anyone uses magic in front
of muggles (Harry for instance). The house blew up becuase of magic.
Muggles saw something (what exactly we don't know). The ministry should
be there to cast some memory charms at least.

&gt; &gt; Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow.
&gt;
&gt; Very unlikely. Not only do we see the twins Apparate inside the
&gt; Headquarters in OotP, but Mr Weasley tells Harry (as they go to Harry's
&gt; hearing) that he usually Apparated to work (though, obviously, we can't
&gt; know if he has to step outside the house to do that).
&gt;
&gt; The social ban on Apparation into a house would of course apply, but of
&gt; course there couldn't be any general protections against Apparation in
&gt; the whole village and surrounding areas -- that would be a dead
&gt; giveaway.
Exactly. Wizards apparate everywhere except in protected locations like
Hogwarts. If the secret was that Harry and the Potters were hidden in
GH, then why can't DD, Hagrid, Sirius or others apparate there
instantly.

&gt; &gt; In fact, the location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the
&gt; &gt; Secret Keeper.
&gt;
&gt; As said before, I don't think so. And I think it very unlikely that
&gt; Hagrid used a Thestral, as it would take too long to get there from
&gt; Hogwarts (he might, of course, have been stationed nearby, but that's
&gt; another discussion, I'd say).
Like I said, my reconstruction is an attempt to explain. I'm not saying
it is the only explanation. Yet I find it more likely than others.
Hagrid, whereever he was, must have been sent to GH with some means of
getting to Privet Drive that was not meeting up with Sirius accidently
and getting his bike.

&gt; &gt; Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
&gt; &gt; location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall,
&gt; &gt; Lupin, Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.
&gt;
&gt; I've already demonstrated how Dumbledore and Hagrid could have known
&gt; the secret without knowing who the Secret-Keeper was, but the secret
&gt; had only been in place for about a week, so it's probably very limited
&gt; how many people could have been told (i.e. shown the hypothetical
&gt; letter).
You're right. DD and Hagrid COULD have know. That does not mean that
they DID. But let us suppose they did. Then why did DD not go to GH
himself?

&gt; &gt; Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a
&gt; &gt; Thestral to Godric's Hollow in book 7.
&gt;
&gt; Harry has already expressed his wish to go there, so he doesn't need
&gt; Hagrid's encouragement. As Harry (as far as we know) doesn't know how
&gt; to find Godric's Hollow, and since he (again as far as we know) hasn't
&gt; had any classes in aerial navigation, he might need the navigational
&gt; talents of a Thestral, but not because of any Fidelius Charms or anti-
&gt; apparating barriers.
I was not saying that Hagrid will encourage Harry to got GH. Hagrid
will give him a way to get to GH.

&gt; &gt; Given the above and:
&gt;
&gt; I'm sorry, but as far as I am concerned, anything that relies on your
&gt; above conclusions must by default be false, as the house of cards has
&gt; not only grown shaky, but has already fallen.
Not so. You have not disproved any. You have simply given alternatives
that could have happened. Alternatives that could have happened do not
disprove what I have said. Yet the alternatives raise more puzzling
questions than what I have proposed.

&gt; &gt; 1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's
&gt; &gt; Hollow given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from
&gt; &gt; Godric's Hollow?
&gt;
&gt; You are mistakenly assuming that Hagrid spent a lot of time en route,
&gt; but his fast arrival (/before/ Sirius and any Muggles) proves
&gt; otherwise. And, knowing Hagrid (and his wagging tongue), it wouldn't
&gt; last long before the rumour got started -- enough to have the wizard
&gt; world out on the streets the next morning.
Let us assume that Hagrid's trip takes the lesser part of the missing
day. The exact length time does not matter. Then this means that for
hours (more than 12) DD is aware that something happened at GH but does
not go himself and send Hagrid instead hours later. Or, for hours (more
than 12) DD is not aware of what happened at GH, then when he finds out
he sends the much slower (travel speed-wise) Hagrid to retrieve Harry.
But if Hagrid was stationed near GH (as you suppose) and knew the
secret (as you supposed) would not he alert DD and go to the house on
his own? Then upon finding Harry would not he take the baby and travel
to some safe place (like Hogwarts)? The house of cards is the one you
are building with your assumptions and deductions. ANY reconstruction
of the missing day must be built on assumptions and deduction because
JK has not given us the full picture.

&gt; &gt; 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius
&gt; &gt; after leaving Hogwarts.
&gt;
&gt; I see no reason to suppose any such thing. He definitely spoke with
&gt; McGonagall, and, given Hagrid's nature, it would even seem unlikely
&gt; that he didn't meet anyone else (pining for a small one -- &quot;I on'y had
&gt; one gallon, I swear!&quot;)
So Sirius possibly costs the Potters their lives by flying to GH on his
bike when he could have apparated there. And Hagrid risks harm coming
to a one year old because he's not responsible. And the great DD, who
trusts Hagrid with his life, is foolish enough to send Hagrid on this
critical mission. Who's builing a house of cards again?

&gt; &gt; And we can suppose that Sirius went undercover after leaving his
&gt; &gt; bike with Hagrid.
&gt;
&gt; No. Sirius went after Peter and caught up with him at some point the
&gt; next day (PoA) while there was still many Muggles in the streets, so
&gt; definitely /before/ Harry was given to the Dursleys.
That is what I said. Are you arguing for arguments sake? Sirius goes
undercover after Pettigrew right away.

&gt; But Sirius didn't have any reason to stay away from other wizards at
&gt; that point, even if he didn't want to announce his arrival to Peter by
&gt; using his motorbike.
Wrong. He was the only one who knew that Pettigrew was the secret
keeper.

&gt; &gt; So the wizarding world did not here the news from Hagrid, Pettigrew
&gt; &gt; or Sirius.
&gt;
&gt; Not Pettigrew, anyway. For the other two the conclusion is without
&gt; basis, IMO.
Hagrid is off babbling at the bar. And Sirius is walking around talking
to people instead of asking if they have seen Pettigrew. Your picture
is weirder than mine.

&gt; &gt; 3) The Death Eater's continue operating after Godric's Hollow.
&gt;
&gt; Yes, obviously. You cannot, however, assume that they operated as a
&gt; coherent organisation any more. More likely it was smaller groups of
&gt; people who did know each other as Death Eaters (remember that they
&gt; didn't all know each other).
I made no such assumption. You should read more carefully. It is
possible, for example, that the DE's knew something happened because
the Dark Mark disappears. And maybe Snape shows that DD that the Dark
Mark disappeared. But this itself cannot explain how DD knew all the
details he knew within 24 hours. And if he did not got to GH how did he
know what he knew. If he did go to GH, why did he not pick up Harry
himself?

&gt; &gt; 4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
&gt; &gt; Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?
&gt;
&gt; That is anybody's guess. As far as I know, there is no indication of
&gt; how Dumbledore would know, unless he had a spy installed in Godric's
&gt; Hollow to watch over the Potters (whom he obviously knew were staying
&gt; in the village).
Good conclusion. Thanks for agreeing with one of my conclusions in my
&quot;house of cards&quot;.

&gt; &gt; 5) Dumbledore did not go to Godric's Hollow or he would have
&gt; &gt; picked up Harry.
&gt;
&gt; I don't agree with that. Dumbledore would not pick up Harry himself if
&gt; carrying a baby around was likely to become cumbersome.
LOL

&gt; As I have said earlier, I find it very difficult to believe that Dumbledore
&gt; did /not/ go to Godric's Hollow -- his knowledge of the events is too
&gt; complete for him not to have gone there himself to investigate the crime
&gt; scene (remember the scenes in the cave in HBP, how Dumbledore is capable of
&gt; finding and analysing traces of magic).
Excellent analysis again. DD had to go to GH to know all he knew - wait
why didn't he go to GH and pick up Harry at the same time? Oh yeah,
baby, cumbersome.

&gt; The remainder, building upon an already fallacious (IMO) foundation
&gt; doesn't contain anything real to build upon. It is quite possibly that
&gt; Dumbledore had a spy in Godric's Hollow, but either that spy must have
&gt; known the secret, or he cannot have known what happened prior to the
&gt; explosion. It is, IMO, more likely that Dumbledore reached his
&gt; conclusions through a careful investigation of the scene (heavily aided
&gt; by the author).
Well your foundations are now less fallacious than mine since you have
to make deductions too. The cumbersome baby theory makes sense to you,
but not to me

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#6: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 05:02:51 by gjw

On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
&gt;Hollow and told Dumbledore everything.


The last time I looked, Fawkes was a large, brightly-feathered bird.
Do we have any indication in the books that Fawkes can TALK ??




[&quot;Just when I think I’m out, they pull me back in again.&quot; - Michael
Corleone ]

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#7: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 05:19:36 by drusilla

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> escribió:
&gt; Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've been
&gt; thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow and Privet
&gt; Drive and have come to some conclusions.

OK... put glasses on, prepare to read...

&gt; Given:
&gt; 1) There is a day between the incident at Godric's Hollow and the time
&gt; Hadrig delivers baby Harry to Privet Drive. (This is widely accepted as
&gt; per <a href="http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters.html" target="_blank"> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html</a>)
&gt;
&gt; 2) Hagrid can't apparate or you can't apparate with a baby.
&gt; 3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.
&gt; 4) Then how did Hagrid plan on getting the baby to Privet Drive in time
&gt; to meet Dunbledore? Flying on Sirius' bike he hardly got there on time.

&gt; Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
&gt; transport, most likely a flying transport.

What about a Portkey?

&gt; Given the above and:
&gt; 1) Hagrid does not use or does not prefer to use brooms. And he did not
&gt; possess a gryphon or a dragon at the time.

IICR, he told Umbridge that he wasn't skilled with brooms because of his
size. He might be joking but it makes sense.

&gt; 2) He left the means he intended to use at Godric's Hollow at Godric's
&gt; Hollow or somehow that is inconsequential.

Jo hasn't given a direct answer about whether there was someone else
besides the Potters and LV the night they died but I wouldn't doubt that
Dumbledore put someone there in order to check the place. Whatever
happened to this supposedly person that didn't showed up first than
Hagrid? Who knows. Perhaps some DE were there as well.

&gt; Conclusion 2: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow on a Thestral. Upon
&gt; burrowing Sirius' bike, the Thestral returned to Hogwarts by itself.

Again, it might be a portkey.

&gt; Given the above and the following observations:
&gt; 1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to Godric's
&gt; Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice would be to leave the
&gt; bike somewhere and apparate, apparating back to the bike if needed.

&gt; 2) Dumbledore does not go to Godric's Hollow himself to pick up Harry
&gt; but sends Hadrig by Thestral (we conclude).
&gt;
&gt; 3) McGonogall goes to Privet Drive and waits the whole day for Hagrid.
&gt; If she was really worried (or if she was evil) then she would have gone
&gt; to Godric's Hollow herself. If Hagrid told her where he was meeting
&gt; Dumbledore later, why wouldn't he tell her about Godric's Hollow? It's
&gt; not because of the Fidelius Charm. After Hagrid delivers Harry, they
&gt; all talk about finding Harry at Godric's Hollow.
&gt;
&gt; 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
&gt; Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the Potters at
&gt; Godric's Hollow that night?

Could it be that the Fidelius Charm gets broken once the secret is
revealed?

&gt; Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
&gt; location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
&gt; Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
&gt; elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
&gt; Godric's Hollow before.

The secret is not the house or the location but the information that
'the Potters were hiding at Godric's Hollow'. You can get there in
Thestral, but there is no way you might know that the Potters are inside
the house. How? No idea how that charm works: it might be like the
anti-muggle charm; you forget why were you there or simply James and
Lily might be in front of you but you can't see them.


&gt; Given the above and:
&gt; 1) Only Sirius knew that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper.
&gt; 2) Only Sirius and Hagrid (on a Thestral) show up at Godric's Hollow
&gt; that night.

&gt; Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
&gt; location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall, Lupin,
&gt; Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.

There is not secret Location of Godric's Hollow. Another theory might be
that Hagrid or any member of the Order where supposed to be watching the
place by turns but not knowing the reason (kinda like in OotP and the
prophecy): and it happened that that night was Hagrid's turn. We know
that Harry received orders from DD that involved Harry, so, he get them
after the attack. If he wasn't there, he probably was the closest person
DD had at the moment.

&gt; Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a Thestral
&gt; to Godric's Hollow in book 7.

Harry wants to be there. He can use several ways to get there:
Apparition, broomstick, floo, Knight Bus, Portkey and his own
Hippogryff. And muggle ways too.

&gt; Given the above and:
&gt; 1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's Hollow
&gt; given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from Godric's Hollow?
&gt; Dumbledore and McGonogall speak of the celebrations taking place during
&gt; the intervening day.

But Hagrid must have been meeting people in the way. He was a baby,
wasn't he? He needed to stop to feed him, change him. Also, he probably
took the baby to a place where he could be checked for injuries,
considering he was the survivor of an explosion. Knowing Hagrid, he
probably stormed in St. Mungo yelling 'I need attention for Harry Potter
who has survived the attack of You-Know-Who at his own house!!!!!'

&gt; 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius after
&gt; leaving Hogwarts.

If we first assume he was there before he arrived GH.

&gt; 3) The Death Eater's continue operating after Godric's Hollow. They
&gt; torture the Longbottoms at least two day's after Godric's Hollow. So we
&gt; can assume that they are not sure of what events took place at Godric's
&gt; Hollow.
&gt;
&gt; 4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
&gt; Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?

He was around? He had a spy who was ordered to be around but not
interfering? A muggle or a squib?

&gt; 5) Dumbledore did not go to Godric's Hollow or he would have picked up
&gt; Harry.
&gt;
&gt; 6) Dumbledore knew details about what happened when he was at Privet
&gt; Drive (Lilly's sacrifice for example) without having been at Godric's
&gt; Hollow or having seen Harry before Privet Drive (if he had seen Harry
&gt; before Privet Drive, why didn't he take Harry to Privet Drive). How did
&gt; Dumbledore know so much?

1. He &quot;read&quot; Harry's mind. We know Harry was a baby, but see what Jo
says about Pensieves: &quot;[pensieves] recreates a moment for you, so you
could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice
the time. It's somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of
our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know
you remember are all in there somewhere.&quot;

Also, notice that DD seemed to know better what happened when Lily's
faced LV but not what happened when James did. Perhaps because Harry was
with Lily all the time?
or

2. The Potters had a house-elf.

&gt; Conclusion 5: Someone was at Godric's hollow who told Dumbledore all
&gt; that happened.

The house-elf? :S

&gt; Given the above and:
&gt; 1) The person or creature who told Dumbledore what happened at Godric's
&gt; Hollow had to know the secret or had to be able to bypass Godric's
&gt; Hollow secret location.

If it was the elf, then he/she was also inside the house.

&gt; 2) Certainly Sirius did not tell Dumbledore, he got there at the same
&gt; time as Hagrid because Sirius went undercover to search for Pettigrew.
&gt; Pettigrew was probably at Godric's Hollow
&gt; (<a href="http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters.html" target="_blank"> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html</a>).
&gt; Certainly Pettigrew did not tell Dumbledore because Pettigrew was in
&gt; hiding (or if he had gone to Dumbledore then he either would have had
&gt; no fear of Sirius or Dumbledore would have known the truth). If Lupin
&gt; had been there and told Dumbledore, why didn't he rescue Harry? The
&gt; same logic applies to Snape. If Snape had been there why didn't he
&gt; rescue Harry (if Snape is good) or take Harry to the Death Eaters (if
&gt; Snape is bad)?

Because none of them was there. If Dumbledore knew first than then what
happened there, the house must have been under some vigilance. If
Dumbledore was told by someone, this someone was somehow ordered to stay
aside no matter what (a muggle? a squib?). If, he knew it by magical
means, then he send the first person he had at the moment. Yet, I think
he knew exactly what happened, as he sent Hagrid. If he got the
information that LV had arrived at the house and it had been a fight,
why sending Hagrid when it existed the option that LV had killed the 3
Potters and survived?

&gt; 3) That someone could have been a house-elf, a portrait or Fawkes. All
&gt; have the required abilities. But no house-elf or portrait seems likely.
&gt;

House-elves sound likely to me.

&gt; Conclusion 6: Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
&gt; Hollow and told Dumbledore everything. Fawkes is magical and
&gt; exceptional enough to bypass the protections at Godric's Hollow. Fawkes
&gt; is intelligent enough to understand everything that happened that
&gt; night. Lastly, Fawkes was trusted by Dumbledore.

OK, that I agree.
&gt;
[snip]

OK, I agree with almost everything except some minor details I won't
write :S

&gt; Meta-considerations:
&gt; This reconstruction also has the added benefit that it explains some
&gt; previously unexplained things. For one thing, Thestral's. Why did JK
&gt; introduce Thestrals? They really don't add anything to the plot or
&gt; characters or flavor unless they are to be used in book 7.

They were used plenty in book 5, and for some lightly good reasons.

Report this message

#8: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 05:21:40 by drusilla

gjw escribió:
&gt; On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
&gt;&gt; Hollow and told Dumbledore everything.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; The last time I looked, Fawkes was a large, brightly-feathered bird.
&gt; Do we have any indication in the books that Fawkes can TALK ??

How do we know that Dumbledore has his ways to communicate with Fawkes?

Report this message

#9: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 05:29:56 by ag30476

To be clearer because on reading it seems that I wasn't...

First, many have supposed that DD must have had some means of finding
out about what happened in GH before sending Hagrid there (or at least
before arring at Privet Drive). For example, some have supposed that
Snape was at GH. Others have supposed that Lupin was there, or that
Lupin switched bodies with James, or that a time-travelled future Harry
was there. Hopefully, my modest proposal won't be lumped with such
fanciful claims.

I'm supposing DD did have a spy in GH. Nothing new here.

I'm just supposing that this spy could again bypass the secret without
giving away the secret to DD or anyone else. Magical creatures like an
elf can bypass wizard protections. I'm supposing the spy was Fawkes.

Second, we know that the Potters were hiding in GH. In fact, that as
specific as it gets in the text. (Perhaps DD and other can only say GH
because they cannot be more specific - meaning that the secret is
still in effect.)

We don't know what the secret was exactly but I'm supposing the secret
was the location of the hiding place not the fact that the Potters were
hiding in that location.

Whether the location kept by the secret is the location of the entire
village of GH, or the street in GH, or a building on GH, or a room in a
building in GH does not matter. My point is the secret is the location
of the hiding place. You can talk about the hiding place but not about
how to get there. And you can't get there if you don't know the secret
just like with 12 Grimaud.

Further, originally only 4 people knew the secret (James, Lilly, Sirius
and Pettigrew - baby Harry does no count as &quot;knowing the location).
Pettigrew then tells V so V knows.

Again, nothing new here so far.

It has been supposed that DD and/or Hagrid also knew the location of
the hiding place because DD sent Hagrid went and DD knew what went on
there to some detail.

I'm supposing that DD and/or Hagrid did NOT know the location but yet
DD had a means to send Hagrid there bypassing the secret. The means he
had is the use of Thestral that had been to the hiding place before.
(We could have used Fawkes for double-duty here but I like the idea of
a Thestral.)

The third thing I'm proposing that these two suppositions (Fawkes spy
and Thestral to GH hiding spot) explain the missing day and help
explain why DD did not go to GH himself.

Fawkes flies from GH to Hogwarts. Fawkes let's DD know what happened
without going to GH himself. DD can then go to GH by some means which
bypasses the secret which is still in effect. This means is slow
(compared to apparation). So he sends Hagrid by this means, the
Thestral, because there is no time saved by DD going to GH himself.
Hagrid takes the Thestral from Hogwarts to GH. From GH to Privet Drive
he takes Sirius' bike. The three (relatively) slow flights explain why
it takes a day from the time the curse backfires to the time Harry
arrives at Privet Drive.

Lastly, all this implies that the secret is still in effect and that
Harry must use use some means to bypass the secret which is still in
effect. The only living person who knows the secret is Pettigrew which
means Harry has to find Pettigrew...or there is some other means.
Fortunately for Harry, Hagrid tells him about the Thestral or the trio
figure this out on their own...and this seems very Rowing like to me.

Report this message

#10: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 05:30:53 by wadkin2000

drusilla wrote:
&gt; gjw escribi=F3:
&gt; &gt; On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
&gt; &gt;&gt; Hollow and told Dumbledore everything.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The last time I looked, Fawkes was a large, brightly-feathered bird.
&gt; &gt; Do we have any indication in the books that Fawkes can TALK ??
&gt;
&gt; How do we know that Dumbledore has his ways to communicate with Fawkes?


That's true, Drusilla. IMO, there seems to be some kind of silent
communication between Dumbledore and Fawkes.

Report this message

#11: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 05:32:09 by ag30476

gjw wrote:
&gt; On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
&gt; &gt;Hollow and told Dumbledore everything.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; The last time I looked, Fawkes was a large, brightly-feathered bird.
&gt; Do we have any indication in the books that Fawkes can TALK ??
Fawkes does not necessarily have to talk to communicate with DD. How DD
communicates with Fawkes, I can't say except it's magic.

Report this message

#12: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 06:13:12 by ag30476

drusilla wrote:
&gt; &gt; Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
&gt; &gt; transport, most likely a flying transport.
&gt;
&gt; What about a Portkey?
Possible but then Portkeys seems like apparation - something that would
be hard on a 1 year old. Still OK. Hagrid uses a portkey to get to GH?
Why doesn't he use it to get out with Harry? Instead he uses Sirius'
bike. There's no reason to use Siriu's bike unless it's no worse than
what he planned to get out of GH with.

&gt; &gt; Conclusion 2: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow on a Thestral. Upon
&gt; &gt; burrowing Sirius' bike, the Thestral returned to Hogwarts by itself.
&gt;
&gt; Again, it might be a portkey.
Like I say above, Hagrid might have gotten there by portkey (or Floo or
whatever) but conclusion 2 is about what he planned to get out of GH
with. Since Hagrid doesn't broom, he probably planned on using
something else: flying car, flying carpet, gryphon, dragon, Thestral.
Thestral's are conveniently located in Hogwarts so they are my choice.

&gt; &gt; 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
&gt; &gt; Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the Potters at
&gt; &gt; Godric's Hollow that night?
&gt;
&gt; Could it be that the Fidelius Charm gets broken once the secret is
&gt; revealed?
Yes but that brings its own problems, most conspicously why did DD then
not go to GH and pick up Harry?

&gt; &gt; Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
&gt; &gt; location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
&gt; &gt; Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
&gt; &gt; elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
&gt; &gt; Godric's Hollow before.
&gt;
&gt; The secret is not the house or the location but the information that
&gt; 'the Potters were hiding at Godric's Hollow'. You can get there in
&gt; Thestral, but there is no way you might know that the Potters are inside
&gt; the house. How? No idea how that charm works: it might be like the
&gt; anti-muggle charm; you forget why were you there or simply James and
&gt; Lily might be in front of you but you can't see them.
That might be how the charm works. If the secret is still in effect
after the curse backfires, then how can people talk about the fact that
the potters were hiding in GH? If the secret is not in effect after the
curse backfires then how come we don't hear about anyone other than
Hagrid and Sirius going to GH that night. DD doesn't go. McG doesn't go
(even though she is curious about what went on there). Ministry
officials don't go (not before Hagrid leaves GH). DE's don't go (again
at least not before Hagrid leaves GH).

&gt; &gt; Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
&gt; &gt; location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall, Lupin,
&gt; &gt; Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.
&gt;
&gt; There is not secret Location of Godric's Hollow. Another theory might be
&gt; that Hagrid or any member of the Order where supposed to be watching the
&gt; place by turns but not knowing the reason (kinda like in OotP and the
&gt; prophecy): and it happened that that night was Hagrid's turn. We know
&gt; that Harry received orders from DD that involved Harry, so, he get them
&gt; after the attack. If he wasn't there, he probably was the closest person
&gt; DD had at the moment.
That is possible but that supposition has it's own problems. First,
supposing Hagrid is near GH, then Hagrid sends an message to DD and
waits for DD's reply before going to GH. I think rather would more
likely rush to GH yelling &quot;Harry!&quot; then send a message to DD. Second,
how does Hagrid tell McG he is going to Privet Drive. We can suppose
she is near GH too but then why doesn't she got to GH. Or we can
suppose Hagrid is near GH, then goes to Hogwarts, meets with McG, then
goes back to GH. I think it's simpler to assume that Hagrid was not
near GH.

&gt; &gt; Prediction 1: Hagrid will tell Harry that he needs to take a Thestral
&gt; &gt; to Godric's Hollow in book 7.
&gt;
&gt; Harry wants to be there. He can use several ways to get there:
&gt; Apparition, broomstick, floo, Knight Bus, Portkey and his own
&gt; Hippogryff. And muggle ways too.
It seems Rowling like to me to put obstacles in Harry's path. Anything
that Harry wants, Harry has to work for. But we'll have to wait and
see...

&gt; &gt; Given the above and:
&gt; &gt; 1) How did whole wizarding world know what happened at Godric's Hollow
&gt; &gt; given that it took Hagrid a day of flying to and from Godric's Hollow?
&gt; &gt; Dumbledore and McGonogall speak of the celebrations taking place during
&gt; &gt; the intervening day.
&gt;
&gt; But Hagrid must have been meeting people in the way. He was a baby,
&gt; wasn't he? He needed to stop to feed him, change him. Also, he probably
&gt; took the baby to a place where he could be checked for injuries,
&gt; considering he was the survivor of an explosion. Knowing Hagrid, he
&gt; probably stormed in St. Mungo yelling 'I need attention for Harry Potter
&gt; who has survived the attack of You-Know-Who at his own house!!!!!'
Yes this are plausible suppositions and they have been used to explain
the passage of time. However, I think on close (or perhaps over-)
analysis, they don't add up. Hagris is instructed to take Harry to
Privet Drive and we learn that it's because it is (thanks to the blood
charm) the safest place for Harry. That means, DD, wants Harry safe,
naturally with all the DE's still around. And at that time, DE's were
hidden everywhere. It seems the most logical instruction for DD to give
Hagrid is &quot;Get the baby and take it straight to Privet Drive.&quot; That
means no talking to anyone. Hagrid meets up with Sirius and talks to
him. Later Sirius is falsely accused of working with Voldemort. This
only highlights how dangerous the situation was for Harry. Of course,
Harry had nothing to fear from Sirius, but Hagrid did not know that at
the time. Lastly, DD does not go get the baby himseld because he judges
he, DD, cannot do it in a safer (that is faster) time than Hagrid can
(that is DD too must at least fly from GH with Harry).

&gt; &gt; 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius after
&gt; &gt; leaving Hogwarts.
&gt;
&gt; If we first assume he was there before he arrived GH.
Yes. But it sounds better than saying &quot;We can suppose that Hagrid met
no one other than Sirius after Hagrid left wherever was that he was at
at the time.

&gt; &gt; 4) We know that Dumbledore told Hagrid who told McGonogall. So
&gt; &gt; Dumbledore knew about it first. But how did he know?
&gt;
&gt; He was around? He had a spy who was ordered to be around but not
&gt; interfering? A muggle or a squib?
Possible.

&gt; &gt; 6) Dumbledore knew details about what happened when he was at Privet
&gt; &gt; Drive (Lilly's sacrifice for example) without having been at Godric's
&gt; &gt; Hollow or having seen Harry before Privet Drive (if he had seen Harry
&gt; &gt; before Privet Drive, why didn't he take Harry to Privet Drive). How did
&gt; &gt; Dumbledore know so much?
&gt;
&gt; 1. He &quot;read&quot; Harry's mind. We know Harry was a baby, but see what Jo
&gt; says about Pensieves: &quot;[pensieves] recreates a moment for you, so you
&gt; could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice
&gt; the time. It's somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of
&gt; our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know
&gt; you remember are all in there somewhere.&quot;
Possible. But from the famous Harry/Lupin PoA scene we know Harry's
earliest memory is a little clouded. Still it's possible as you say.
However, DD tells McG details before Harry arrives in Privet Drive. And
if DD had seen Harry before Privet Drive (either at GH or because
Hagrid takes Harry to DD) why didn't DD take charge of the baby from
that point?

&gt; Also, notice that DD seemed to know better what happened when Lily's
&gt; faced LV but not what happened when James did. Perhaps because Harry was
&gt; with Lily all the time?
That's a good observation.

&gt; or
&gt;
&gt; 2. The Potters had a house-elf.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Conclusion 5: Someone was at Godric's hollow who told Dumbledore all
&gt; &gt; that happened.
&gt;
&gt; The house-elf? :S
That's another possibility. A house-elf at GH would make an excellent
spy for DD. However, said house-elf is conspicously absent from books
1-6.


&gt; &gt; Given the above and:
&gt; &gt; 1) The person or creature who told Dumbledore what happened at Godric's
&gt; &gt; Hollow had to know the secret or had to be able to bypass Godric's
&gt; &gt; Hollow secret location.
&gt;
&gt; If it was the elf, then he/she was also inside the house.
Like I said an elf is possible but ultimately dissapointing. &quot;Don'ts be
mad with us Master Harry, sir. We did not talks to your honors before
because we was...um would you like us to make a nice cup'o butterbeer
for you sirs?&quot;

&gt; &gt; 2) Certainly Sirius did not tell Dumbledore, he got there at the same
&gt; &gt; time as Hagrid because Sirius went undercover to search for Pettigrew.
&gt; &gt; Pettigrew was probably at Godric's Hollow
&gt; &gt; (<a href="http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters.html" target="_blank"> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html</a>).
&gt; &gt; Certainly Pettigrew did not tell Dumbledore because Pettigrew was in
&gt; &gt; hiding (or if he had gone to Dumbledore then he either would have had
&gt; &gt; no fear of Sirius or Dumbledore would have known the truth). If Lupin
&gt; &gt; had been there and told Dumbledore, why didn't he rescue Harry? The
&gt; &gt; same logic applies to Snape. If Snape had been there why didn't he
&gt; &gt; rescue Harry (if Snape is good) or take Harry to the Death Eaters (if
&gt; &gt; Snape is bad)?
&gt;
&gt; Because none of them was there...
Well Pettigrew had to be there to rescue the V's wand but that's
another thread...

&gt; ...If Dumbledore knew first than then what
&gt; happened there, the house must have been under some vigilance. If
&gt; Dumbledore was told by someone, this someone was somehow ordered to stay
&gt; aside no matter what (a muggle? a squib?). If, he knew it by magical
&gt; means, then he send the first person he had at the moment. Yet, I think
&gt; he knew exactly what happened, as he sent Hagrid. If he got the
&gt; information that LV had arrived at the house and it had been a fight,
&gt; why sending Hagrid when it existed the option that LV had killed the 3
&gt; Potters and survived?
And surely there existed the possibility that someone was alive. If DD
can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is not logical for DD to
send Hagrid.

&gt; &gt; 3) That someone could have been a house-elf, a portrait or Fawkes. All
&gt; &gt; have the required abilities. But no house-elf or portrait seems likely.
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; House-elves sound likely to me.
Like I said, I though of them too. Except it would be disappointing to
meet an elf-ex-machina in book 7 who explains all.

&gt; &gt; Conclusion 6: Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
&gt; &gt; Hollow and told Dumbledore everything. Fawkes is magical and
&gt; &gt; exceptional enough to bypass the protections at Godric's Hollow. Fawkes
&gt; &gt; is intelligent enough to understand everything that happened that
&gt; &gt; night. Lastly, Fawkes was trusted by Dumbledore.
&gt;
&gt; OK, that I agree.
You agree that Fawkes is a good spy candidate? If so, thanks.

&gt; OK, I agree with almost everything except some minor details I won't
&gt; write :S
But what about the flames...I want more flame BWAHAHAHAHA.

&gt; &gt; Meta-considerations:
&gt; &gt; This reconstruction also has the added benefit that it explains some
&gt; &gt; previously unexplained things. For one thing, Thestral's. Why did JK
&gt; &gt; introduce Thestrals? They really don't add anything to the plot or
&gt; &gt; characters or flavor unless they are to be used in book 7.
&gt;
&gt; They were used plenty in book 5, and for some lightly good reasons.
I think she could have done without Thestrals. My feeling is that they
will be used again in book 7.

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#13: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 06:45:03 by drusilla

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> escribió:
&gt; drusilla wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
&gt;&gt;&gt; transport, most likely a flying transport.
&gt;&gt; What about a Portkey?
&gt; Possible but then Portkeys seems like apparation - something that would
&gt; be hard on a 1 year old. Still OK. Hagrid uses a portkey to get to GH?
&gt; Why doesn't he use it to get out with Harry? Instead he uses Sirius'
&gt; bike. There's no reason to use Siriu's bike unless it's no worse than
&gt; what he planned to get out of GH with.

Hagrid's main priority was to get there. Perhaps he would worry about
get out there later. It seems to me (I don't have my HP books at hand)
that Sirius left the scene first. Also, DD surely could have sent some
help later that eventually realised that Hagrid had found his way to
leave with Harry. As Hogsmeade is, as said by Hermione, the only
completely wizard village, GH was not. At some point, ministry people
arrived to check the scene and get ride of curious muggles; DD should
have known this. All of these is actually speculation of course.

&gt;&gt;&gt; 4) If Sirius and Peter Pettigrew are still alive, then how can
&gt;&gt;&gt; Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonogall speak about Harry and the Potters at
&gt;&gt;&gt; Godric's Hollow that night?
&gt;&gt; Could it be that the Fidelius Charm gets broken once the secret is
&gt;&gt; revealed?
&gt; Yes but that brings its own problems, most conspicously why did DD then
&gt; not go to GH and pick up Harry?

He was busy doing something way more important than that :S

&gt; That might be how the charm works. If the secret is still in effect
&gt; after the curse backfires, then how can people talk about the fact that
&gt; the potters were hiding in GH? If the secret is not in effect after the
&gt; curse backfires then how come we don't hear about anyone other than
&gt; Hagrid and Sirius going to GH that night. DD doesn't go. McG doesn't go
&gt; (even though she is curious about what went on there). Ministry
&gt; officials don't go (not before Hagrid leaves GH). DE's don't go (again
&gt; at least not before Hagrid leaves GH).

No one goes because no one knows the importance of the place or what is
inside. Even when the secret is revealed (if), why would people
associated the destruccion of a house with LV's 'dead'. There were other
attacks before that, they don't go to check every one of them. Why would
they?

&gt;&gt;&gt; Conclusion 4: Most likely, none of the following knew the secret
&gt;&gt;&gt; location of Godric's Hollow: Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonogall, Lupin,
&gt;&gt;&gt; Snape, anyone at the Ministry of Magic.
&gt;&gt; There is not secret Location of Godric's Hollow. Another theory might be
&gt;&gt; that Hagrid or any member of the Order where supposed to be watching the
&gt;&gt; place by turns but not knowing the reason (kinda like in OotP and the
&gt;&gt; prophecy): and it happened that that night was Hagrid's turn. We know
&gt;&gt; that Harry received orders from DD that involved Harry, so, he get them
&gt;&gt; after the attack. If he wasn't there, he probably was the closest person
&gt;&gt; DD had at the moment.
&gt; That is possible but that supposition has it's own problems. First,
&gt; supposing Hagrid is near GH, then Hagrid sends an message to DD and
&gt; waits for DD's reply before going to GH. I think rather would more
&gt; likely rush to GH yelling &quot;Harry!&quot; then send a message to DD. Second,
&gt; how does Hagrid tell McG he is going to Privet Drive. We can suppose
&gt; she is near GH too but then why doesn't she got to GH. Or we can
&gt; suppose Hagrid is near GH, then goes to Hogwarts, meets with McG, then
&gt; goes back to GH. I think it's simpler to assume that Hagrid was not
&gt; near GH.

There is a chance, and I've read that here, that Hagrid took Harry to
Hogwarts, where there is a nurse who could have helped. Yet, it seems
that when MG talks with Hagrid, he is Harry-less. He might have talked
with her before he went to GH unless he was separated from Harry at some
moment.

&gt; It seems Rowling like to me to put obstacles in Harry's path. Anything
&gt; that Harry wants, Harry has to work for.

Except money ;)

I think on close (or perhaps over-)
&gt; analysis, they don't add up. Hagris is instructed to take Harry to
&gt; Privet Drive and we learn that it's because it is (thanks to the blood
&gt; charm) the safest place for Harry. That means, DD, wants Harry safe,
&gt; naturally with all the DE's still around. And at that time, DE's were
&gt; hidden everywhere. It seems the most logical instruction for DD to give
&gt; Hagrid is &quot;Get the baby and take it straight to Privet Drive.&quot;

He could have taken Harry to Hogwarts, where is also safe.

That
&gt; means no talking to anyone. Hagrid meets up with Sirius and talks to
&gt; him. Later Sirius is falsely accused of working with Voldemort. This
&gt; only highlights how dangerous the situation was for Harry. Of course,
&gt; Harry had nothing to fear from Sirius, but Hagrid did not know that at
&gt; the time. Lastly, DD does not go get the baby himseld because he judges
&gt; he, DD, cannot do it in a safer (that is faster) time than Hagrid can
&gt; (that is DD too must at least fly from GH with Harry).

I think is important to know what was DD doing at that time. Perhaps he
was working on a spell over Privet Drive (not possible as MG didn't see
him) or looking for LV himself. Who knows?

&gt;&gt;&gt; 2) We can suppose that Hagrid met no one other than Sirius after
&gt;&gt;&gt; leaving Hogwarts.
&gt;&gt; If we first assume he was there before he arrived GH.
&gt; Yes. But it sounds better than saying &quot;We can suppose that Hagrid met
&gt; no one other than Sirius after Hagrid left wherever was that he was at
&gt; at the time.

OK.

&gt; However, DD tells McG details before Harry arrives in Privet Drive. And
&gt; if DD had seen Harry before Privet Drive (either at GH or because
&gt; Hagrid takes Harry to DD) why didn't DD take charge of the baby from
&gt; that point?

Might be that DD is not good carrying a baby all over the country.
Hagrid, clumsy as he is, looks to be extremely careful with his 'pets'.
A baby is way closer to that so, DD could have thought that Hagrid was
better for interact with a baby than himself.

&gt;&gt;&gt; Conclusion 5: Someone was at Godric's hollow who told Dumbledore all
&gt;&gt;&gt; that happened.
&gt;&gt; The house-elf? :S
&gt; That's another possibility. A house-elf at GH would make an excellent
&gt; spy for DD. However, said house-elf is conspicously absent from books
&gt; 1-6.

If the elf belongs to the Potters, perhaps it's still at GH waiting for
Harry to appear. Or Dumbledore managed to get him/her another job.
(Someone will ever say Dobby? No one?)

&gt;&gt; Because none of them was there...
&gt; Well Pettigrew had to be there to rescue the V's wand but that's
&gt; another thread...
OK :)

&gt; And surely there existed the possibility that someone was alive. If DD
&gt; can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is not logical for DD to
&gt; send Hagrid.

Yes, I think DD had been more helpfull if someone was alive, and even
more if none of them had. He knew exactly what had happened and that it
was safe, so he sent Hagrid.

&gt; Like I said, I though of them too. Except it would be disappointing to
&gt; meet an elf-ex-machina in book 7 who explains all.
There is not much to explain, actually. If this happens, I give it half
of a chapter to happen.

&gt; You agree that Fawkes is a good spy candidate? If so, thanks.
You're welcome. But in fact, Fawkes had been seen as a messenger, so,
why not a spy?


&gt;&gt; OK, I agree with almost everything except some minor details I won't
&gt;&gt; write :S
&gt; But what about the flames...I want more flame BWAHAHAHAHA.
HEHE

&gt;&gt;&gt; Meta-considerations:
&gt;&gt;&gt; This reconstruction also has the added benefit that it explains some
&gt;&gt;&gt; previously unexplained things. For one thing, Thestral's. Why did JK
&gt;&gt;&gt; introduce Thestrals? They really don't add anything to the plot or
&gt;&gt;&gt; characters or flavor unless they are to be used in book 7.
&gt;&gt; They were used plenty in book 5, and for some lightly good reasons.
&gt; I think she could have done without Thestrals. My feeling is that they
&gt; will be used again in book 7.
I think she's going to use lots of stuff from previous books.

I also thought something: why so little communication between DD and
Sirius? He was supposedly the secret keeper, if DD was indeed watching
somehow the house, how is that he didn't watched Sirius as well? Just
wondering.

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#14: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 09:59:21 by Toon

On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to Godric's
&gt;Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice would be to leave the
&gt;bike somewhere and apparate, apparating back to the bike if needed.

If he ever got his license.

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#15: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 10:02:29 by Toon

On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
&gt;location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
&gt;Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
&gt;elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
&gt;Godric's Hollow before.

That can't be the secret. we're told Vodlemort could look in their
window and never see them. That means they are the secret somehow.

And nothing gets by the FC unless the SK tells. Peter probably
performed the FC Break spell.

Report this message

#16: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 10:48:11 by ag30476

drusilla wrote:
&gt; Hagrid's main priority was to get there. Perhaps he would worry about
&gt; get out there later...
Granted. Hagrid is act first, think later. But DD never acts without
thinking. And it was DD who sent Hagrid. It only makes sense to me if
DD sent Hagrid with explicit instructions. Even so Hagrid could be
expected to tell the secret to someone else...he often does...and he
did (to McG)...and McG is someone DD did not tell anything to...but now
I'm getting into another thread ;)

&gt; ...It seems to me (I don't have my HP books at hand)
&gt; that Sirius left the scene first...
Not sure of the import of that other than the fact that it enables
Hagrid to be the witness.

&gt; ..Also, DD surely could have sent some
&gt; help later that eventually realised that Hagrid had found his way to
&gt; leave with Harry...
Surely, IF he could, then he would.

&gt; ...As Hogsmeade is, as said by Hermione, the only
&gt; completely wizard village, GH was not. At some point, ministry people
&gt; arrived to check the scene and get ride of curious muggles; DD should
&gt; have known this. All of these is actually speculation of course.
Yes they should have done that IF they could have. We can suppose they
eventually got around to it after Hagrid went to GH, found Harry and
talked with Sirius. Perhaps DD conveniently forgot to tell the Ministry
right away long enough for Hagrid to go there undisturbed...see this is
the problem...The easier it is for more people to get to GH, the more
convoluted the story has to become. But if we assume that the secret is
still in place after the curse backfires and only the bare minimum
(James, Lilly, Sirius, Pettigrew, V) know anything then many questions
are explained away. The only thing we need is a way for Hagrid to get
there around the curse. Conveniently, the Harry Potter world is full of
exceptional things that break the rules (elves, Fawkes, etc.).

&gt; &gt; Yes but that brings its own problems, most conspicously why did DD then
&gt; &gt; not go to GH and pick up Harry?
&gt;
&gt; He was busy doing something way more important than that :S
And that was? Seriously, someone could still have been alive in GH and
we know the value DD puts on life. And if it is Harry, it is even more
important because I think by the time of the events at GH, DD knows the
prophecy and it's implication: Harry must live. Again, I ask what was
more important than Harry's safety IF DD could get to GH QUICKLY? (If
DD can get to GH by appartaion, we are talking about a few minutes of
DD's time.)

&gt; &gt; That might be how the charm works. If the secret is still in effect
&gt; &gt; after the curse backfires, then how can people talk about the fact that
&gt; &gt; the potters were hiding in GH? If the secret is not in effect after the
&gt; &gt; curse backfires then how come we don't hear about anyone other than
&gt; &gt; Hagrid and Sirius going to GH that night. DD doesn't go. McG doesn't go
&gt; &gt; (even though she is curious about what went on there). Ministry
&gt; &gt; officials don't go (not before Hagrid leaves GH). DE's don't go (again
&gt; &gt; at least not before Hagrid leaves GH).
&gt;
&gt; No one goes because no one knows the importance of the place or what is
&gt; inside. Even when the secret is revealed (if), why would people
&gt; associated the destruccion of a house with LV's 'dead'. There were other
&gt; attacks before that, they don't go to check every one of them. Why would
&gt; they?

McG asks DD in book 1, chapter 1:
'&quot;What they're saying,&quot; she pressed on, &quot;is that last
night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to
find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James Potter
are -- are -- that they're -- dead. &quot;'

Who are 'they'? How can 'they' not know the importance of GH?

&gt; I think on close (or perhaps over-)
&gt; &gt; analysis, they don't add up. Hagris is instructed to take Harry to
&gt; &gt; Privet Drive and we learn that it's because it is (thanks to the blood
&gt; &gt; charm) the safest place for Harry. That means, DD, wants Harry safe,
&gt; &gt; naturally with all the DE's still around. And at that time, DE's were
&gt; &gt; hidden everywhere. It seems the most logical instruction for DD to give
&gt; &gt; Hagrid is &quot;Get the baby and take it straight to Privet Drive.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; He could have taken Harry to Hogwarts, where is also safe.
OK, let's assume that. Hagrid is somewhere. DD tells him pick up Harry
and go to Hogwarts then go to Privet Drive. Hagrid tells McG the plan
or part of the plan at some time and at some place before he goes to
GH. DD is somewhere when he sends this. DD does not go to GH to pick up
Harry. DD does not go to Hogwarts to meet Harry. McG does not got to
Hogwarts to check on Harry (for good or ill). And then in book 1
chapter 1 McG says:
'&quot;Yes -- yes, you're right, of course. But how is the boy
getting here, Dumbledore?&quot;
She eyed his cloak suddenly as though she thought he
might be hiding Harry underneath it.
&quot;Hagrid's bringing him.&quot;
&quot;You think it -- wise -- to trust Hagrid with something
as important as this?&quot;
I would trust Hagrid with my life,&quot; said Dumbledore.'

I'm glad DD trusts Hagrid with HIS life because after the
fly-Harry-to-Hogwarts-and-then-to-Privet-Drive, I wouldn't trust the
lot of them to deliver a postcard.

And then DD has the NERVE to say:
'&quot;Hagrid,&quot; said Dumbledore, sounding relieved. &quot;At last.
And where did you get that motorcycle?&quot;'

If I was Hagrid I would not have said:
&quot;Borrowed it, Professor Dumbledore, sir,&quot;'

but rather &quot;If you bloody'ell wanted him so fast you old git why didn't
you pick him yerfelf or meet me at Hogwarts!&quot;


&gt; I think is important to know what was DD doing at that time. Perhaps he
&gt; was working on a spell over Privet Drive (not possible as MG didn't see
&gt; him) or looking for LV himself. Who knows?
We're talking minutes, mere minutes, for DD to go pick up Harry IF he
can do it. And is DD looking for V? Gee, I wonder where is a good place
to start looking? The scene of the crime? Nah...that's not how we do it
her at CSI:Hogwarts.

And as for casting the spell on Privet Drive...that reverses
priorities. Imagine that DD spends a good part of the day researching
and preparing the blood charm. He meets McG, waits for Hagrid and
then...
Hagrid: &quot;Well you sees sir when I got there I was too to late...&quot;
DD: &quot;Oh bother&quot;

Oh, and lest we forget, 'Nothing like this man had ever been seen on
Privet
Drive.' DD had not been in Privet Drive before he got there that night
(at least to the narrator's knowledge). So, if DD was casting the blood
charm, he was casting without Harry and without Privet Drive and the
Dursely's. Or if he was researching/preparing the blood charm, then he
was doing it away from Hogwarts or he was at Hogwarts except for when
Harry was possibly taken to Hogwarts or when McG was looking for him.

If we assume that DD COULD have picked up GH or gone to GH, then the
questions just mount. Because if DD could have picked up Harry or gone
to GH, the he SHOULD have.

&gt; &gt; However, DD tells McG details before Harry arrives in Privet Drive. And
&gt; &gt; if DD had seen Harry before Privet Drive (either at GH or because
&gt; &gt; Hagrid takes Harry to DD) why didn't DD take charge of the baby from
&gt; &gt; that point?
&gt;
&gt; Might be that DD is not good carrying a baby all over the country.
&gt; Hagrid, clumsy as he is, looks to be extremely careful with his 'pets'.
&gt; A baby is way closer to that so, DD could have thought that Hagrid was
&gt; better for interact with a baby than himself.
DD does not have to carry Harry all over the country. He has to pick
him up and take him to a safe place. He could, for ex, have taken him
to Privet Drive in the middle of the night and woken up the Duresly's,
cast the blood charm and left. Or he could have taken Harry to Hogwarts
and had Hagrid, the OotP, and Fawkes guard him. Instead, Hagrid (less
capable) has to take the baby either to a safe location (Privet Drive)
or all over the country (e, first Hogwarts, then Privet Drive). That
is, Hagrid has to do a job that is best suited for DD. And IF DD is
better suited than he SHOULD do it. Either that or picking up Haryy was
LESS important than something else.

No matter how you cut it, it's always the worse choice to have Hagrid
pick up Harry IF DD can do more quickly and safely instead.

&gt; &gt; That's another possibility. A house-elf at GH would make an excellent
&gt; &gt; spy for DD. However, said house-elf is conspicously absent from books
&gt; &gt; 1-6.
&gt;
&gt; If the elf belongs to the Potters, perhaps it's still at GH waiting for
&gt; Harry to appear. Or Dumbledore managed to get him/her another job.
&gt; (Someone will ever say Dobby? No one?)
I agree, a house-elf could have been the spy. And maybe it was Dobby.
But it's just so unsatisfying an explanation, at least for me.

&gt; &gt; And surely there existed the possibility that someone was alive. If DD
&gt; &gt; can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is not logical for DD to
&gt; &gt; send Hagrid.
&gt;
&gt; Yes, I think DD had been more helpfull if someone was alive, and even
&gt; more if none of them had. He knew exactly what had happened and that it
&gt; was safe, so he sent Hagrid.
YES! DD knew it was safe. How did he know it was safe? How did he know
that noone else could get to the GH hiding spot quickly and get there
before Hagrid? How did he know that there was no-one left at GH to pose
a danger? How did he know that he could trust Hagrid to bring Harry
from GH to Privet Drive safely? If you can answer that then I think you
have a good reconstruction of events. I'm not saying my reconstruction
is the only possibility but it answers the safety questions.

Q: How did he know that noone else could get to the GH hiding spot
quickly and get there before Hagrid? A: Because the secret was still in
effect and even he, DD, could not break it.

Q: How did he know that there was no-one left at GH to pose a danger?
A: Because he had a spy who told him what happened, Fawkes IMO (but a
house-elf is also a possibility).

Q: How did he know that he could trust Hagrid to bring Harry from GH to
Privet Drive safely? A: Becuase it was a direct flight from GH to
Privet Drive.

&gt; &gt; Like I said, I though of them too. Except it would be disappointing to
&gt; &gt; meet an elf-ex-machina in book 7 who explains all.
&gt; There is not much to explain, actually. If this happens, I give it half
&gt; of a chapter to happen.
JK can write half a paragraph or several chapters, I'm still not going
to like it. It's just not palatable to me to find out that the spy and
the things that explains the goings on that night is a character not
seen until the last moment. This is a matter of taste of course.

&gt; I also thought something: why so little communication between DD and
&gt; Sirius? He was supposedly the secret keeper, if DD was indeed watching
&gt; somehow the house, how is that he didn't watched Sirius as well? Just
&gt; wondering.
Supposedly Sirius himself went into hiding, to promote the idea that he
is the Secret Keeper. Perhaps DD was watching Sirius. But if he was, it
was no help because the one to watch was Pettigrew.

Overall, the theme of secrecy and whom to trust seems to be a central
part of the series.

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#17: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 10:59:31 by ag30476

Toon wrote:
&gt; On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;1) Sirius was worried about the Potters but chooses to fly to Godric's
&gt; &gt;Hollow rather than apparate. The logical choice would be to leave the
&gt; &gt;bike somewhere and apparate, apparating back to the bike if needed.
&gt;
&gt; If he ever got his license.
LOL. True. We can't assume that he can apparate. (Of course this does
not mean that he can't.)

But then we haven't seen many other characters apparate, McGonogall,
Pettigrew...The point is that in order to reconstruct the timeline of
events before book 7 (to do it after would be pointless of course), you
have to make assumptions/deduction regardless of which theory you
favor.

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#18: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 11:19:54 by ag30476

Toon wrote:
&gt; On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Conclusion 3: You cannot apparate at Godric's Hollow. In fact, the
&gt; &gt;location of Godric's Hollow is the secret of the Secret Keeper. But a
&gt; &gt;Thestral, a magical creature, can bypass wizard protections (much like
&gt; &gt;elves can apparate in Hogwarts ground) if the Thestral had been to
&gt; &gt;Godric's Hollow before.
&gt;
&gt; That can't be the secret. we're told Vodlemort could look in their
&gt; window and never see them. That means they are the secret somehow.
IF he could look in the window, THEN he could never see them...wouldn't
put it past JK to mean it that way. But I think it's more of a figure
of speech as in &quot;You could be right in front of 12 Grimaud and never
see it.&quot;

&gt; And nothing gets by the FC unless the SK tells. Peter probably
&gt; performed the FC Break spell.
Again, another assumption. Yes, nothing says there is no FC Break
spell. But nothing syas there is an FC break spell. Nothing says Sirius
can apparate. Nothing says he can't either.

But it's funny, that regarding the FC, JK has said in an interview that
the FC dies with the SK, that the secret is bound to the soul of the
SK. What I take from this is that the FC is a very strong charm that is
nearly impossible break.

If you look at my timeline, it is based on only 4 assumptions:
- The secret is still in effect.
- Only James, Lilly, Sirius, Pettigre, and LV knew the secret.
- DD had a spy in GH not bound by the secret (Fawkes or a house-elf, I
favor the former).
- DD had a means of bypassing the secret and getting himself or someone
else to GH (Fawkes again or a Thestral, I favor the latter).

If you assume either
- The secret is broken.
- DD and/or Hagrid knew the secret.

Then you have to come up with many more assumptions to cover the
questions that come up:
Q: Why didn't Sirus apparate to GH? A: He can't.
Q: How did DD know what happened? A: Someone like Snape or Lupin was
there, told DD, but did not take the baby. Or DD went to GH but did not
pick up Harry. Or DD met Harry at some time between GH and Privet
Drive.
Q: Why did DD not pick up Harry himself? A: He was doing something more
important.
Q: Why did it take so long for Hagrid to bring Harry to Privet Drive?
A: It didn't. Hagrid took Harry somewhere else first.
Q: Why didn't McG go to GH? She wanted confirmation from DD himself,
she did not want to confirm things for herself.
....

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#19: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 23:11:43 by DaveD

&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1152826705.026819.109060&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152826705.026819.109060&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've been
&gt; thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow and Privet
&gt; Drive and have come to some conclusions.
&gt;
&gt; Given:

[lots of complex arguments cut]


Gosh - book 7's going to be awfully complicated if it's going to come close
to covering that sort of back story!!!

(Well done - whether you're right or not, that took some figuring out, lol)

DaveD

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#20: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-14 23:48:31 by ag30476

DaveD wrote:
&gt; Gosh - book 7's going to be awfully complicated if it's going to come close
&gt; to covering that sort of back story!!!
I don't think the story is complicated. JK wrote a consistent story and
then just left out certain key parts. Naturally our guesses as to what
that story is will sound strange (or will be downright strange in some
cases).

I figure, we will get a flashback or expository scene where the events
at GH will be explained. (Of course, JK could get artsy and show
multiple POV flashbacks so that we never know what really happened but
I doubt that.)

&gt; (Well done - whether you're right or not, that took some figuring out, lol)
Thanks!

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#21: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-15 00:12:42 by gjw

On 13 Jul 2006 20:32:09 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; On 13 Jul 2006 14:38:25 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;Fawkes is the only one that could have been at Godric's
&gt;&gt; &gt;Hollow and told Dumbledore everything.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The last time I looked, Fawkes was a large, brightly-feathered bird.
&gt;&gt; Do we have any indication in the books that Fawkes can TALK ??

&gt;Fawkes does not necessarily have to talk to communicate with DD. How DD
&gt;communicates with Fawkes, I can't say except it's magic.


Are there any indications in the books that Fawkes can communicate
complex ideas to anyone ? So far, my impression is that the bird is
incapable of communicating on any sophisticated level (beyond that of
a very bright pet, responding to its master's commands).

Without some evidence to suggest otherwise, it would seem unwise to
build a theory on the notion that the bird told Dumbledore what
happened at Godric's Hollow.




[&quot;Just when I think I’m out, they pull me back in again.&quot; - Michael
Corleone ]

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#22: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-15 00:38:04 by ag30476

gjw wrote:
&gt; Are there any indications in the books that Fawkes can communicate
&gt; complex ideas to anyone ? So far, my impression is that the bird is
&gt; incapable of communicating on any sophisticated level (beyond that of
&gt; a very bright pet, responding to its master's commands).
Yet Dumbledore uses her to warn him if Umbridge leaves her office. That
does imply that she can understand a complex idea (Umbridge leaving her
office) and act accordingly. And there are other signs of Fawkes
intelligence.

How does Fawkes communicate with DD? I don't know. But you can't say
that she doesn't. So yes, the fact that Fawkes can communicate with DD
is an assumption on my part but since we don't have all the facts, we
must make some assumptions and deductions.

&gt; Without some evidence to suggest otherwise, it would seem unwise to
&gt; build a theory on the notion that the bird told Dumbledore what
&gt; happened at Godric's Hollow.
The &quot;theory&quot; has to employ deductions and assumptions like any other
reconstruction because we don't know all the facts. IMHO, I use less
deductions and assumptions than most.

Many have supposed that DD had a means to know what happened in GH.
Many have also supposed that this was a spy, a witness if you will, of
the goings on in GH. And many have supposed that this was some wizard
like Snape or Lupin. But if this is the case, then why would the wizard
have left the baby? It makes no sense. I'm just supposing as other have
that it was a magical creature, like a house-elf, that was the witness.


I think Fawkes is a good guess because he has the desired qualities,
he's an exceptional magical creature who seems intelligent and is
trusted by DD.

Notice that DD can use Fawkes to teleport away from the ministry which
is normally an impossible act. Fawkes can also take an AV curse and be
reborn. Sounds to me like the kind of remote spy you need at GH.

Why didn't Fawkes take Harry? Well the last time Fawkes carried Harry,
Harry held on to the tail feathers no? A baby can't do that.

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#23: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-15 07:09:12 by gjw

On 14 Jul 2006 15:38:04 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; Are there any indications in the books that Fawkes can communicate
&gt;&gt; complex ideas to anyone ? So far, my impression is that the bird is
&gt;&gt; incapable of communicating on any sophisticated level (beyond that of
&gt;&gt; a very bright pet, responding to its master's commands).

&gt;Yet Dumbledore uses her to warn him if Umbridge leaves her office. That
&gt;does imply that she can understand a complex idea (Umbridge leaving her
&gt;office) and act accordingly. And there are other signs of Fawkes
&gt;intelligence.

I would take that incident as the kind of literary exaggeration one
sees in an old episode of &quot;Lassie&quot;, in which Timmy tells the dog to do
something and the dog responds as if it understands what Timmy is
saying. (Or when the same dog goes to get its master and barks, or
tugs on him, until he follows her somewhere.) That sort of thing is
an exaggeration of what most pets can do, but it isn't the same as
portraying an animal as capable of actual speech or other
sophisticated communication. I'd have nothing in particular against
the idea of Fawkes tugging at Dumbledore's cloak, or squawking loudly
when something bad happens. But it is highly unlikely that the bird
would be able to actually tell Dumbledore anything about what happened
at Godric's Hollow.


(And why do you refer to Fawkes as &quot;she&quot;? It's a male.)

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#24: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-15 09:47:46 by Toon

On 14 Jul 2006 02:19:54 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:


&gt;&gt; That can't be the secret. we're told Vodlemort could look in their
&gt;&gt; window and never see them. That means they are the secret somehow.
&gt;IF he could look in the window, THEN he could never see them...wouldn't
&gt;put it past JK to mean it that way. But I think it's more of a figure
&gt;of speech as in &quot;You could be right in front of 12 Grimaud and never
&gt;see it.&quot;

No, she was describing the power of the spell. So powerful, that if a
secret is hidden from you, and you stumble upon it, you still can't
see it. So, the Potters are secretly in the GH House. Even if
Voldemort decides to check out this house, he'll never see them. So,
he can see/find the house. He'd just find and empty house.

&gt;&gt; And nothing gets by the FC unless the SK tells. Peter probably
&gt;&gt; performed the FC Break spell.
&gt;Again, another assumption. Yes, nothing says there is no FC Break
&gt;spell. But nothing syas there is an FC break spell. Nothing says Sirius
&gt;can apparate. Nothing says he can't either.

Well, there has to be,e because a secret could no longer need to be
kept secret. Nobody expected the Potters to die. So, there has to be
a way to break the FC and let them be seen by anyone there. let alone
any number of secrets that are no longer needed to be kept.

Of course, it took 50 years from the invention of the can to invent
the can openers, so maybe the secret is permanent..

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#25: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-15 15:36:14 by DaveD

&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1152850392.853107.182120&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152850392.853107.182120&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; drusilla wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; Conclusion 1:

[suppositions and/or hypotheses and counter-hypotheses snipped]


There's lots of complex workings here (too many for my addled brain to
follow lol) but what is the overall point you're trying to show? Yes there
is a missing day to fill, but I don't see that filling it really adds to the
story: it doesn't show anyone as being a secret DE/traitor or undercover
agent of OoTP, or much about Harry's role in how he will destroy Voldy, for
example (or even if - shock horror - he's a horcrux!) apart from suggesting
he may have a bit of a problem finding GH - and somehow I suspect he'll have
lots of bigger (and more dramatic!) things to do such as finding and
destroying all the other horcruxes and then Voldy. The question of whether
he rides a broomstick or a thestral to get to GH seems pretty small beer by
comparison!

Sorry if I missed the point somewhere along the way after all the hard work
you've put into it :)

DaveD

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#26: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-15 18:43:25 by Troels Forchhammer

In message
&lt;news:<a href="mailto:1152840454.187728.12670&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152840454.187728.12670&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;
<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Troels Forchhammer wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; In message
&gt;&gt; &lt;news:<a href="mailto:1152826705.026819.109060&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152826705.026819.109060&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt; <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; That is not, IMO, the interesting question...It is not important
&gt;&gt; how he had planned to get from Godric's Hollow to Surrey, but
&gt;&gt; rather what he did in the time when he was not travelling.
&gt;
&gt; It's not necessarily an important question but just how did he
&gt; plan to go back?

The question is pointless. There are so many means of transport
available for wizards, that asking which one Hagrid was intending to
use is besides the point. He may not even have known -- for all we know
he could have been making it up as he went.

&gt;&gt;&gt; Conclusion 1: Hagrid went to Godric's Hollow with some means of
&gt;&gt;&gt; transport, most likely a flying transport.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Or he was taken there by side-along Apparation (e.g. by
&gt;&gt; Dumbledore, who would then have moved on immediately).
&gt;
&gt; Then why didn't Dumbledore go himself?

Dumbledore, quite obviously, had weightier matters to attend to than
the caring for a baby child. Seeing to the future safety of said child
and divining what had actually happened, for instance.

&gt; If the Floo network was operating to GH why didn't Lilly and Harry
&gt; Floo out of there? OK maybe there is no Floo network IN GH or you
&gt; can't Floo with a baby?

Of course there were fireplaces connected to the Floo network in
Godric's Hollow -- the village is named for a wizard and had at least
one wizard house and probably more.

The Potters' house may have been disconnected, made unreachable or
something when they hid there -- I doubt that the Fidelius Charm was
the only measure of security about the house.

&gt; Why didn't Sirius Floo to GH? Floo is certainly faster than his
&gt; bike.

As pointed out in the previous message, Sirius was not in any
particular hurry at that point.

&gt;&gt; Or he was visiting (or stationed) somewhere in Godric's Hollow to
&gt;&gt; look out for the Potters. In that scenario he had a message from
&gt;&gt; Dumbledore (possibly by Floo).
&gt;
&gt; If Hagrid was near GH then we must suppose McGonogall was near GH
&gt; too.

No, we mustn't.

&gt; Otherwise, he could not tell McGonogall.

Whoever said they actually met? McGonagall (note spelling) had been in
communication with Hagrid, but the books show enough means of
communication at a distance to provide some ideas of how it could be
managed.

Assuming that McGonagall was looking for Dumbledore at the time she
communicated with Hagrid, it would have been /after/ she had heard the
rumours (confirmation of those was the real reason why she sought
Dumbledore), and it is perfectly possible that Hagrid were no longer in
Godric's Hollow at that time. For all we know, he might have taken
Harry to the then Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix (not,
obviously, 12 Grimmauld Place), and McGonagall, seeking Dumbledore
there, contacted whoever was there to learn Dumbledore's whereabouts.

You continuously fail to look at all the available information, and
present your propositions as if they were the only possibilities, but
they are not. The old Holmesian maxim is still correct, but you have to
take a /lot/ of care to be really sure that you've truly eliminated
/all/ other possibilities.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; That is, admittedly, a problem with the conclusions I posted. But
&gt; any reconstruction must involve deductions from what is written
&gt; and then further deductions after that.

No.

If you have to base your hypothesizing on shaky hypotheses, then you
have nothing.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; Sirius is flamboyant but this is a life and death matter.

No it is not! Sirius was worried, yes, but all he had to go on was the
fact that Peter was not in his hide-out. Not enough reason for panic or
to claim a life-and-death situation.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; Thanks for agreeing.

Don't get excited -- I do, most certainly, /not/ agree, and I find
serious faults with your attempts at logic.

&gt; The secret is not the hiding place but the location of the hiding
&gt; place.

Try checking again in OotP what the secret is (hint: it is revealed to
Harry on a piece of paper) and what the effect is. 'The hiding-place of
James and Lily Potter may be found at the Potters' house in Godric's
Hollow' mirrors very closely the later secret (as invoked by Dumbledore
himself) and would obviously have the same effect.

Narcissa /knew/ that Sirius was hiding in Grimmauld Place, and she knew
all about the house, but because of the Fidelius Charm, the secret of
which was that the house was the Headquarters of the Order, she would
not have been able to find it, even though she knew perfectly well the
address and the location of it -- the house simply wouldn't have
appeared to her.

The same naturally would apply at Godric's Hollow -- a secret along the
lines I describe above would have the same effect: that even those who
knew perfectly well that the house is there will not be able to see it.

&lt;snip rest&gt;

You're too fond of your speculations and hence fails to see what
refutes them: a common trap to fall into (I've been there myself), but
nonetheless a fallacy.

I am not, in this case, forwarding any particular idea, but merely
listing alternatives (some of which may even be refutable). You base
your argumentation on a kind of 'this is the only idea I can come up
with to explain X', and showing that there are a number of other
possible explanations sort of makes that argument void. Some of it is,
naturally, entirely possible in the sense that it is not directly
contradicted by canon (as is the Thestral transport idea), but that
applies to quite a lot of things and is a /very/ bad way to argue your
case.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is &lt;t.forch(a)email.dk&gt;

We're leaving WISDOM
to starve and thirst
when we cultivate
KNOWLEDGE as such.
The very best comes
to the very worst
WHEN IGNORANTS
KNOW TOO MUCH.

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#27: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 01:55:54 by ag30476

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
&gt; &gt; It's not necessarily an important question but just how did he
&gt; &gt; plan to go back?
&gt;
&gt; The question is pointless. There are so many means of transport
&gt; available for wizards, that asking which one Hagrid was intending to
&gt; use is besides the point.
OK so you have a lack of curiosity but the question is not pointless in
the conext of the story. Wizards may have many means of travel but
Hagrid has fewer, he doesn't fly by broom and he can't apperate.
further, I think JK has shown that you would not normally take a baby
by appartaion or portkey. The question is one which goes to the heart
of SOD in the story. How was Hagrid going to get Harry to Provet Drive
before Sirius showed up? That YOU don't care is meaningless. The
question is still important StORYWISE.

&gt; He may not even have known -- for all we know
&gt; he could have been making it up as he went.
Like you.

&gt; &gt; Then why didn't Dumbledore go himself?
&gt;
&gt; Dumbledore, quite obviously, had weightier matters to attend to than
&gt; the caring for a baby child. Seeing to the future safety of said child
&gt; and divining what had actually happened, for instance.
Obviously it was MORE important to make the final destination safer
than to get the child. Let's see: 1) Make final safe place 2) Bring
child (if still alive) by less safe mean (Hagrid). That's obvious to
YOU but not to me.

Obviously finding out what really happened does not involve going tothe
scene of the crime, i.e. Godric's Hollow. Again, obvious to YOU but not
to me.

&gt; Of course there were fireplaces connected to the Floo network in
&gt; Godric's Hollow -- the village is named for a wizard and had at least
&gt; one wizard house and probably more.
Of course, naturally, OBVIOUSLY. Not obvious to Sirius. he flew. Oh
yeah, I forgot. He's flamboyant.

&gt; The Potters' house may have been disconnected, made unreachable or
&gt; something when they hid there -- I doubt that the Fidelius Charm was
&gt; the only measure of security about the house.
That's true.

&gt; &gt; Why didn't Sirius Floo to GH? Floo is certainly faster than his
&gt; &gt; bike.
&gt;
&gt; As pointed out in the previous message, Sirius was not in any
&gt; particular hurry at that point.
LV is planning to kill Harry. Pettigrew is the SK. He's supposed to be
at a certain place. No, no urgency is invloved. OBVIOUSLY not.

&gt; &gt; If Hagrid was near GH then we must suppose McGonogall was near GH
&gt; &gt; too.
&gt;
&gt; No, we mustn't.
We must or we must assume Hadrig was near GH, got the message from DD,
went to somewhere where McG was, told McG, and then finally went to GH.
Or, we must assume Hadrig was near GH, got the message from DD, McG
goes to where Hadrig is without hearing from DD, harry waits for McG to
arrive then tells McG, and then finally went to GH. Which story is more
OBVIOUS to you.

&gt; &gt; Otherwise, he could not tell McGonogall.
&gt;
&gt; Whoever said they actually met? McGonagall (note spelling) had been in
&gt; communication with Hagrid, but the books show enough means of
&gt; communication at a distance to provide some ideas of how it could be
&gt; managed.
So now you want to assume that DD messages Hagrid, Hagrid unsolicitedly
communicates by some remote means with McG (why?) or McG inititaates
remote messages with Hagrid. It seems to me that your version has more
asumptions than mine.

&gt; Assuming that McGonagall was looking for Dumbledore at the time she
&gt; communicated with Hagrid, it would have been /after/ she had heard the
&gt; rumours (confirmation of those was the real reason why she sought
&gt; Dumbledore), and it is perfectly possible that Hagrid were no longer in
&gt; Godric's Hollow at that time. For all we know, he might have taken
&gt; Harry to the then Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix (not,
&gt; obviously, 12 Grimmauld Place), and McGonagall, seeking Dumbledore
&gt; there, contacted whoever was there to learn Dumbledore's whereabouts.
For all we know &lt;snip&gt;...that seems an even more elaborate
reconstruction than mine. Anyway, the possibility that it happened that
way does not disprove that it happened the way I described. What we
have to determine here is which is more likely.

&gt; You continuously fail to look at all the available information, and
&gt; present your propositions as if they were the only possibilities,
No YOU continuously choose to take what I say is the most likely as
meaning that I say it is the only possibility. It is possible that DD
could go to GH and pick up Harry but sends Hahrid instead but it does
not make sense to me. It seems to me that IF DD could pick up Harry
then he would becuase IMHO he should because IMHO that asures Harry's
safety.

And by the way, all my conclusions are based on the available info. It
is YOU who continoualy explain away questiosn with what MIGHT have
happened.

&gt; The old Holmesian maxim is still correct, but you have to
&gt; take a /lot/ of care to be really sure that you've truly eliminated
&gt; /all/ other possibilities.
I'm not trying to eliminate possibilities but simply give the MOST
likely explanation.

&gt; &gt; That is, admittedly, a problem with the conclusions I posted. But
&gt; &gt; any reconstruction must involve deductions from what is written
&gt; &gt; and then further deductions after that.
&gt;
&gt; No.
&gt;
&gt; If you have to base your hypothesizing on shaky hypotheses, then you
&gt; have nothing.
Whose hypothesis are shaky? Who said Hagrid may have gobne to GH with
know way to get HArry to Pivet Drive. Who supposes that there are many
ways to GH? Who supposes that Hagrid took Harry to Hogwarts first?

&gt; &gt; Sirius is flamboyant but this is a life and death matter.
&gt;
&gt; No it is not! Sirius was worried, yes, but all he had to go on was the
&gt; fact that Peter was not in his hide-out. Not enough reason for panic or
&gt; to claim a life-and-death situation.
After 11 years of terror and a direct threat to Harry, James and Lilly
ar willing to go into hidin cast the &quot;extremly powerfile&quot; FC and have
Pettigrew, the SK, go into hiding, but the gact the Pettigrew is
unacounted for is NOT a life or death matter. That blows my SOD. Of
course you can believe what you want.

&gt; &gt; Thanks for agreeing.
&gt;
&gt; Don't get excited -- I do, most certainly, /not/ agree, and I find
&gt; serious faults with your attempts at logic.
Ditto.

&gt; &gt; The secret is not the hiding place but the location of the hiding
&gt; &gt; place.
&gt;
&gt; Try checking again in OotP what the secret is (hint: it is revealed to
&gt; Harry on a piece of paper) and what the effect is. 'The hiding-place of
&gt; James and Lily Potter may be found at the Potters' house in Godric's
&gt; Hollow' mirrors very closely the later secret (as invoked by Dumbledore
&gt; himself) and would obviously have the same effect.
Try re-reading the same again. When Harry reads, then house appears.
Without being told, he cannot find the house. How is that different
from what I am saying. If Pettigrew does not tell you in some way, then
you can't find where the Potter's are hiding, in other word you can't
LOCATE the place or in other words, the LOCATION is secret.

&gt; Narcissa /knew/ that Sirius was hiding in Grimmauld Place, and she knew
&gt; all about the house, but because of the Fidelius Charm, the secret of
&gt; which was that the house was the Headquarters of the Order, she would
&gt; not have been able to find it, even though she knew perfectly well the
&gt; address and the location of it -- the house simply wouldn't have
&gt; appeared to her.
Exactly waht I said. Try to understand what I said before disagreeing
(or agreeing in this case).

&gt; The same naturally would apply at Godric's Hollow -- a secret along the
&gt; lines I describe above would have the same effect: that even those who
&gt; knew perfectly well that the house is there will not be able to see it.
Correct.

&gt; You're too fond of your speculations and hence fails to see what
&gt; refutes them: a common trap to fall into (I've been there myself), but
&gt; nonetheless a fallacy.
You're too fond of hand waving away pertinent questions.

&gt; I am not, in this case, forwarding any particular idea, but merely
&gt; listing alternatives (some of which may even be refutable).
Again, alternatives do not refute other alternatives. You have not
shown my alternatives are impossible. You have merely shown (correclty)
that my version of events is not the only possibility. I arguing that
mine is the most likely, that is the one that makes the most sense.
Only one version is the absolute truth and JK has it,

&gt; You base your argumentation on a kind of 'this is the only idea I can come up
&gt; with to explain X',
No. I am saying that the other alternatives make less sense. For ex,
yes, GH could have been protecting Privet Drive. But why protect Privet
Drive before making sure Harry is safe?

&gt; and showing that there are a number of other
&gt; possible explanations sort of makes that argument void.
No it does not. Again, we should be arguing probabilities not
possibilities.

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#28: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 02:02:34 by ag30476

gjw wrote:
&gt; But it is highly unlikely that the bird
&gt; would be able to actually tell Dumbledore anything about what happened
&gt; at Godric's Hollow.
OK let me get this straight...you are willing to believe that a 150
year old wizard has a legendary creature called a phoenix as a
companinion and said creature can flay carrying 4 people despite it's
size, cry tears that heal, attack a much larger and dangerous opponent
(another legendary creature, a basilisk), apparate where wizards cannot
apparate (the Ministry), &quot;swallow&quot; an Aveda Kadevera curse and get
reborn, serve as a lookout, and sing a song of morurning ofr the dead
wizard...but NOT that it can communicate with DD? Oh no, NO!! That's
just crazy. Communicating with DD, what nonesense!

&gt; (And why do you refer to Fawkes as &quot;she&quot;? It's a male.)
That was an oops on my part. We don't know if Fawkes is male, female,
neuter or tansgender...but let me not get into slashfic terroritory
here.

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#29: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 04:04:04 by nystulc

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Probably the conclusions here have been posted before. But I've been
&gt; thinking about the events that happened at Godric's Hollow and Privet
&gt; Drive and have come to some conclusions.
&gt;
&gt; Given:
&gt; 1) There is a day between the incident at Godric's Hollow and the time
&gt; Hadrig delivers baby Harry to Privet Drive. (This is widely accepted as
&gt; per <a href="http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters.html" target="_blank"> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters. html</a>)

Right. Evidently, when he rescued Harry, on or about Midnight, he
evidently already had instruction to meet Dumbledore at Privet Drive
the following midnight -- about 24 hours later.

&gt; 2) Hagrid can't apparate or you can't apparate with a baby.

Perhaps. But he can use other methods, like magically propelled
rowboats, or maybe even take the train. Given that he had 24 hours to
get to his appointment, it is not at all implausible that he expected
to be able to get there with the help of minimal magic. I'm sure, for
instance, that Hagrid has access to the floo network, as long as he
knows of two reasonably large fireplaces somewhere near Privet Drive
and Godrick's Hollow respectfully.

&gt; 3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.

Yes. And when he got the bike he realized, he did not need to set out
as early as he had originally planned. Nonetheless, he slightly
miscalculated the time, and arrived a very few minutes late ... an easy
thing to do when a too-convenient means of transport makes one a bit
overconfident.

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#30: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 06:15:39 by drusilla

Toon escribió:
&gt; On 14 Jul 2006 02:19:54 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; That can't be the secret. we're told Vodlemort could look in their
&gt;&gt;&gt; window and never see them. That means they are the secret somehow.
&gt;&gt; IF he could look in the window, THEN he could never see them...wouldn't
&gt;&gt; put it past JK to mean it that way. But I think it's more of a figure
&gt;&gt; of speech as in &quot;You could be right in front of 12 Grimaud and never
&gt;&gt; see it.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; No, she was describing the power of the spell. So powerful, that if a
&gt; secret is hidden from you, and you stumble upon it, you still can't
&gt; see it. So, the Potters are secretly in the GH House. Even if
&gt; Voldemort decides to check out this house, he'll never see them. So,
&gt; he can see/find the house. He'd just find and empty house.

That makes me wonder what would happen if LV did manage to enter the
house, with the spell still working. Would he be able to walk around the
place, without seeing the Potters at all?

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#31: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 07:45:44 by gjw

On 15 Jul 2006 17:02:34 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; But it is highly unlikely that the bird
&gt;&gt; would be able to actually tell Dumbledore anything about what happened
&gt;&gt; at Godric's Hollow.

&gt;OK let me get this straight...you are willing to believe that a 150
&gt;year old wizard has a legendary creature called a phoenix as a
&gt;companinion and said creature can flay carrying 4 people despite it's
&gt;size, cry tears that heal, attack a much larger and dangerous opponent
&gt;(another legendary creature, a basilisk), apparate where wizards cannot
&gt;apparate (the Ministry), &quot;swallow&quot; an Aveda Kadevera curse and get
&gt;reborn, serve as a lookout, and sing a song of morurning ofr the dead
&gt;wizard...but NOT that it can communicate with DD? Oh no, NO!! That's
&gt;just crazy. Communicating with DD, what nonesense!


I'm not unwilling to believe that Rowling could choose to make the
bird talk if she wanted to. I'm simply pointing out that she has not
chosen to do so.

In a magical universe, just about anything _can_ happen, but that
doesn't mean that everything that can happen _has_ happened. There
are countless creatures in the HP universe which do not talk. As far
as we know, the bird is one of them.



&gt;&gt; (And why do you refer to Fawkes as &quot;she&quot;? It's a male.)

&gt;That was an oops on my part. We don't know if Fawkes is male, female,
&gt;neuter or tansgender...but let me not get into slashfic terroritory
&gt;here.


Actually, we do. This quote from CoS is Dumbledore talking to Harry
about Fawkes:

&quot;It's a shame you had to see him on a Burning Day,&quot; said
Dumbledore, seating himself behind his desk. &quot;He's really very
handsome most of the time, wonderful red and gold plumage.&quot;

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#32: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 09:37:18 by Toon

On 15 Jul 2006 17:02:34 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;..but NOT that it can communicate with DD? Oh no, NO!! That's
&gt;just crazy. Communicating with DD, what nonesense!

Well, it dropped feathers as a warning before. I'm sure we can all
agree, it doesn't speak English, and DD doesn't speak Phoenix. I'm
sure Fawkes could communicate by flying in patterns, moving it's wings
in a semaphore language. Perhaps DD has a Speak-N-Spell for Fawkes to
type on.

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#33: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 09:38:12 by Toon

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 23:15:39 -0500, drusilla &lt;<a href="mailto:me&#64;me.net" target="_blank">me&#64;me.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;Toon escribió:
&gt;&gt; On 14 Jul 2006 02:19:54 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; That can't be the secret. we're told Vodlemort could look in their
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; window and never see them. That means they are the secret somehow.
&gt;&gt;&gt; IF he could look in the window, THEN he could never see them...wouldn't
&gt;&gt;&gt; put it past JK to mean it that way. But I think it's more of a figure
&gt;&gt;&gt; of speech as in &quot;You could be right in front of 12 Grimaud and never
&gt;&gt;&gt; see it.&quot;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; No, she was describing the power of the spell. So powerful, that if a
&gt;&gt; secret is hidden from you, and you stumble upon it, you still can't
&gt;&gt; see it. So, the Potters are secretly in the GH House. Even if
&gt;&gt; Voldemort decides to check out this house, he'll never see them. So,
&gt;&gt; he can see/find the house. He'd just find and empty house.
&gt;
&gt;That makes me wonder what would happen if LV did manage to enter the
&gt;house, with the spell still working. Would he be able to walk around the
&gt;place, without seeing the Potters at all?

Nope. But what if they're asleep on the floor and he trips over them?
Is there like a buffer around them or such?

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#34: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 13:03:24 by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

AG 30476 wrote:

&gt; GJW wrote:

&gt;&gt; But it is highly unlikely that the bird would be able to actually tell
&gt;&gt; Dumbledore anything about what happened at Godric's Hollow.

&gt; OK let me get this straight...you are willing to believe that a 150
&gt; year old wizard has a legendary creature called a phoenix as a
&gt; companinion and said creature can flay carrying 4 people despite it's
&gt; size, cry tears that heal, attack a much larger and dangerous opponent
&gt; (another legendary creature, a basilisk), apparate where wizards cannot
&gt; apparate (the Ministry), &quot;swallow&quot; an Aveda Kadevera curse and get
&gt; reborn, serve as a lookout, and sing a song of morurning ofr the dead
&gt; wizard...but NOT that it can communicate with DD? Oh no, NO!! That's
&gt; just crazy. Communicating with DD, what nonesense!

Not to mention Crookshanks communicating with Sirius, or snakes &amp; Harry.


&gt;&gt; (And why do you refer to Fawkes as &quot;she&quot;? It's a male.)

&gt; That was an oops on my part. We don't know if Fawkes is male

When we first met Fawkes in book 2 chapter 12, Dumbledore referred to
the bird as &quot;he&quot; or &quot;him&quot;, (and also mentioned multiple phoenixes).


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!

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#35: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 19:29:35 by ag30476

gjw wrote:
&gt; I'm not unwilling to believe that Rowling could choose to make the
&gt; bird talk if she wanted to. I'm simply pointing out that she has not
&gt; chosen to do so.
Agreed. I have no evidence that Fawkes can talk.Of course this does not
mean he can't talk.

But like I have said, any reconstruction of events at Godric's Hollow
before the revleation in book 7 must include some assumptions.

DD seems to know a lot about the goings on at GH. Some suppose he went
there or found out by some magical means. Some suppose someone who was
at GH told him what happened. ALL of these are possibilities. Which is
the most LIKELY? I think a spy at GH is the most likely. Let's cal this
assumption #1.

Who was the spy? Some have suggested a wizard like Snape or Lupin. Some
have suggested a magical creature such as a house elf. ALL are
possibilities. Which is most LIKELY? I think a magical creature is the
most likely spy. Let's call this assumption #2.

Which magical creature was th spy? Some have suggested a house-elf. I
suggest Fawkes is a good candidate. In my view, he is the best
candidate.. (I'm not claiming credit for saying this first. Someone
else may have claimed the same thing somewhere on the Internet but I
don't know.) Let's call this assumption #3.

Now assumption #3 requires that Fawkes be able to communicate with DD
somehow. This is assumption #4

So the logic goes DD's knowledge -&gt; #1 (spy at GH) -&gt; #2 (magical
creatuire spy) -&gt; #3 (Fawkes is spy) -&gt; #4 (Fawkes can communicate with
DD).

You are saying we have no evidence of #4 (that Fawkes can communicate
with DD). Granted. And with that you are arguing that #3 (Fawkes is the
spy) is unlikely. I disagree but OK. To me, it's not a bifg leap to
belive #4 (Fawkes can communicate). But I can't convince you of that.
Fine.

What about #2 (a magical creature was the spy at GH)? Do you agree with
that? Or how about #1 (there was a witness at GH that told DD what went
on)? Do you agree with that?

To me, those are actually more important to the reconstruction that #3
(Fawkes is the spy). That is, if you think some other magical creature
was DD's spy at GH, let's hear it.

&gt; &gt;That was an oops on my part. We don't know if Fawkes is male, female,
&gt; &gt;neuter or tansgender...but let me not get into slashfic terroritory
&gt; &gt;here.
&gt;
&gt; Actually, we do. This quote from CoS is Dumbledore talking to Harry
&gt; about Fawkes:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;It's a shame you had to see him on a Burning Day,&quot; said
&gt; Dumbledore, seating himself behind his desk. &quot;He's really very
&gt; handsome most of the time, wonderful red and gold plumage.&quot;
I stand corrcted. Thanks.

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#36: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 19:36:14 by ag30476

Toon wrote:
&gt; Well, it dropped feathers as a warning before. I'm sure we can all
&gt; agree, it doesn't speak English, and DD doesn't speak Phoenix. I'm
&gt; sure Fawkes could communicate by flying in patterns, moving it's wings
&gt; in a semaphore language. Perhaps DD has a Speak-N-Spell for Fawkes to
&gt; type on.
LOL. Thanks. That puts a funny image in my head

DD: First word. Sounds like 'carry'. Um...fairy? Larry, Harry!
[Fawkes points to beak]

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#37: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 19:37:44 by ag30476

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

&gt; When we first met Fawkes in book 2 chapter 12, Dumbledore referred to
&gt; the bird as &quot;he&quot; or &quot;him&quot;, (and also mentioned multiple phoenixes).
Yeah I totally forgot that. Someone else pointed that out too. Thanks.

Report this message

#38: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 19:45:28 by ag30476

DaveD wrote:
&gt; There's lots of complex workings here (too many for my addled brain to
&gt; follow lol) but what is the overall point you're trying to show? Yes there
&gt; is a missing day to fill, but I don't see that filling it really adds to the
&gt; story: it doesn't show anyone as being a secret DE/traitor or undercover
&gt; agent of OoTP, or much about Harry's role in how he will destroy Voldy,
True. I wish I could figure those out too but I can't. So I got to
thiniking, just what could be figured out from what was given. I'm not
saying it has any value other than having entertained me. Of course, it
may not be as interesting to you.

On a side note, I do happen to aggee with the McG = evil theory that
has been posted on another thread. My reconstruction doesn't really add
anything to that theory (nor does it contracdict it).

&gt; for example (or even if - shock horror - he's a horcrux!) apart from suggesting
&gt; he may have a bit of a problem finding GH - and somehow I suspect he'll have
&gt; lots of bigger (and more dramatic!) things to do such as finding and
&gt; destroying all the other horcruxes and then Voldy. The question of whether
&gt; he rides a broomstick or a thestral to get to GH seems pretty small beer by
&gt; comparison!
Trure again. The big problem for Harry in book 7 is killing LV. But I
think getting to GH will be a minore problem at the beginning of book 7
- a minor test along the way.

&gt; Sorry if I missed the point somewhere along the way after all the hard work
&gt; you've put into it :)
No I think you didn't miss the point at all.

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#39: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 20:09:42 by ag30476

Toon wrote:
&gt; No, she was describing the power of the spell. So powerful, that if a
&gt; secret is hidden from you, and you stumble upon it, you still can't
&gt; see it. So, the Potters are secretly in the GH House. Even if
&gt; Voldemort decides to check out this house, he'll never see them. So,
&gt; he can see/find the house. He'd just find and empty house.
Yes that could be the nature of the secret of GH. But in book 5 we saw
how the FC worked on 12 Grimmauld. Harry could be in front of the house
but until DD told him the secret he could not see it (and more
importantly, enter it). In fact, in book 6, Snape explains that he
can't tell the DE's the location (that is how to get to) the OoP HQ
because of the FC.

Of course, the secret to GH may be different. But McG at Privet Drive
tells DD that wizards (McG says 'they') are saying that LV went to GH.
I think with this and the nature of the FC for 12 Grimmauld, we can
conclude that nature of the FC at GH is similar to the nature of the
secert at 12 Grimmauld. Again, nothing taht others have not said.

Many have long supposed that DD and Hagrid were in on the secret at GH
(along with those we KNOW that knew the secret: James, Lilly, Sirius,
Pettigrew, and LV).

All, I'm saying is what if we suppose that DD and Hagrid DID NOT know
the secret of GH, does it make more sense? Yes, it is a supposition but
so is supposing that DD and Hagrid did know. IMHO, the storyline makes
more sense if DD and Hagrid do not know the secret of GH but use some
means to bypass the secret (Fawkes or a Thestral).

&gt; &gt;Again, another assumption. Yes, nothing says there is no FC Break
&gt; &gt;spell. But nothing syas there is an FC break spell. Nothing says Sirius
&gt; &gt;can apparate. Nothing says he can't either.
&gt;
&gt; Well, there has to be,e because a secret could no longer need to be
&gt; kept secret. Nobody expected the Potters to die. So, there has to be
&gt; a way to break the FC and let them be seen by anyone there. let alone
&gt; any number of secrets that are no longer needed to be kept.
Look you're saying that the FC was broken. I'm saying that it is not.
We don't really know. We can make deductions from the story. It may
SEEM like the secret is broken but if you really look at it, every
scene that mentions GH does not really prove that the secret at GH is
broken. That is, as per usual JK style, the scense are ambigouos and
can be interpreted in more than one way. For ex, DD and McG are talking
about LV's visit to GH at Privet Drive. It SEEMS as though the secret
is out but we know that the DE's can talk about the OotP HQ without
going there. Hagrid goes to GH and that would SEEM to be a pretty
strong case for the FC being broken or for Hagrid being in on the
secret. But the fact that Hagrid gets there and uses Siriu's bike to
get to Privet Drive is very curious to me. The fact that DD does not go
to GH himself is very curious to me. Both facts point (at least to me)
to the possibility (or I should say probability) that DD and Hagrid do
not know the secret but use some exceptional means to bypass the FC.

&gt; Of course, it took 50 years from the invention of the can to invent
&gt; the can openers, so maybe the secret is permanent..
Well it would be sillier to invent the can opener before inventing the
can.

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#40: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 20:12:35 by ag30476

drusilla wrote:
&gt; Toon escribi=F3:
&gt; &gt; No, she was describing the power of the spell. So powerful, that if a
&gt; &gt; secret is hidden from you, and you stumble upon it, you still can't
&gt; &gt; see it. So, the Potters are secretly in the GH House. Even if
&gt; &gt; Voldemort decides to check out this house, he'll never see them. So,
&gt; &gt; he can see/find the house. He'd just find and empty house.
&gt;
&gt; That makes me wonder what would happen if LV did manage to enter the
&gt; house, with the spell still working. Would he be able to walk around the
&gt; place, without seeing the Potters at all?

Why assume all that. We have an example of the FC at 12 Grimmauld. It's
easiest to suppose that the FC at GH works the same as the FC at 12
Grimmauld. And nothing in the text seems to suggest otherwise.

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#41: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 20:53:34 by ag30476

<a href="mailto:nystulc&#64;cs.com" target="_blank">nystulc&#64;cs.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Right. Evidently, when he rescued Harry, on or about Midnight, he
&gt; evidently already had instruction to meet Dumbledore at Privet Drive
&gt; the following midnight -- about 24 hours later.
Can we assume this, that he rescues Harry on or about midnight? If so,
let me know how you know this. If Harry was picked up at midnight then,
this could throw a wrench in theory. That is I'm saying that neither DD
nor Hagrid were in in the secret at GH and used some magical creature
who could bypass the secret at GH, Fawkes or a Thestral. I suppose
Hagrid could apparate with Fawkes at GH (much like Fawkes apparates at
the Ministry). Thsi still uses Fawkes to bypass the secret.

But if Harry is picked up near midnight, then why does it take so long
to fly from GH to Privet Drive? Was Harry taken to some safe haven
between GH and Privet Drive? What was DD doing during this time? Why
wasn't he with Harry? What was more important?

This is the problem of the missing day...we know have 6 books and more
than 2500 pages and we can't explain what happened to Harry in this
missing day. Fine, I can accept that some things have to be revealed
only at the end: the nature of the Lilly's sacrifice, how the curse
backfires, the meaning of the scar, exactly how LV and Harry are tied
together. But if Harry was taken to some safe place between GH and
Privet Drive why does that have to be so hush hush? Is it a big deal in
the story?

&gt; &gt; 2) Hagrid can't apparate or you can't apparate with a baby.
&gt;
&gt; Perhaps. But he can use other methods, like magically propelled
&gt; rowboats, or maybe even take the train. Given that he had 24 hours to
&gt; get to his appointment, it is not at all implausible that he expected
&gt; to be able to get there with the help of minimal magic. I'm sure, for
&gt; instance, that Hagrid has access to the floo network, as long as he
&gt; knows of two reasonably large fireplaces somewhere near Privet Drive
&gt; and Godrick's Hollow respectfully.
If you can apparate or Floo quickly to GH and/or Privet Drive with a
baby, then why doesn't DD do this himself? If DD and Hagrid can
apparate or Floo to GH quickly but can apparate or Floo with baby Harry
to Privet Drive, why doesn't DD apparate with Hagrid to GH, pick up
Harry, tell Hagrid to take Harry to Privet Drive (or some safe location
and then onto Privet Drive)? Look at what happens because DD does not
do that:

1) Because DD does not go with Hagrid...Hagrid meets up with the EVIL
McG and spills the beans about Privet Drive. the EVIL McG then goes to
Privet Drive to wait for Hagrid not DD - the GOOD McG waits for DD, the
EVIL McG waits for Hagrid, no? Of course, DD is at Privet Drive so we
Harry is safe from EVIL McG. But this only highlights the danger Harry
is in.

2) Because DD does not go with Hagrid...Hagrid gets to GH just before
Sirius gets there. WE know Sirius was NOT the SK. But at that time it
was assumed he was. The real SK, Pettigrew, a DE, went into hiding.
Hagrid does not suspect Sirius of bad intentions - and WE know that he
shouldn't. But that just highlights the danger that Harry was in.
Someone else (Sirius in this case) gets to almost gets to GH before
Hagrid does. What if Sirius does get to GH before Hagrid and picks up
Harry? Harry is safe but what happens to DD's master plan? We know the
DE's are looking to see what happened. Is it IMPOSSIBLE for a DE to get
to GH first before Hagrid? What IF Pettigrew came back and took Harry?
How but just the plain fact that there is a 1 year old with two dead
parents in an almost destroyed house - is there no danger in that?

It blows SOD for me if DD can get to GH but chooses not to. &quot;DD was off
doing other IMPORTANT things&quot; is the of heard reply. What? What could
be more important than Harry? At GH Harry stops LV's 11 year reign of
terror. In book 1, Harry stops LV returning. In book 2, Harry stops a
Horcrux or LV from coming to life and destorys a basilisk, in book 3
Harry and his meddling friends uncover the Pettigrew traitor an help
save Sirius, in book 4 Harry is used by LV to return, in book 5 Harry
is the DADA instructor for the DA's, in book 6 DD takes Harry to find a
Horcrux (not Hagrid, not McG, not Sanpe, not Lupin, not Moody). Harry
is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in th story. If in book 7 it is revealed
that DD sent Hagrid to pick up Harry because he had to attend some
Ministry meeting, it's not going to cut it for me. Others may disagree
of course.

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#42: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-16 22:21:34 by nystulc

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:nystulc&#64;cs.com" target="_blank">nystulc&#64;cs.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; Right. Evidently, when he rescued Harry, on or about Midnight, he
&gt; &gt; evidently already had instruction to meet Dumbledore at Privet Drive
&gt; &gt; the following midnight -- about 24 hours later.

&gt; Can we assume this, that he rescues Harry on or about midnight? If so,
&gt; let me know how you know this.

We do not know precisely. We know his parents were killed on
&quot;Halloween&quot;, which is the night following October 31. This could
include midnight, or perhaps some hours after midnight, but would
probably not extend to the dawn of the following morning. In any
event, the news had already had time to spread significantly by
sunrise, since Owls had already begun to fly in all directions by that
time.

We know that Hagrid must have rescued Harry very shortly after the
attack. He seems to have been the first wizard on the scene, and he
got Harry out before the Muggles started swarming around. (Godrick's
Hollow is a Muggle village, and a house blowing up is a hard thing not
to notice).

BTW, I think the the timeline, to which you provided a link, is
probably mistaken in suggesting that Hagrid meets McGonagall before he
rescues Harry.

&gt; If Harry was picked up at midnight then,
&gt; this could throw a wrench in theory.

Well, he was definitely picked up that Halloween Night, before the
Muggle's started swarming around. The precise hour probably makes
little difference for your theories.

&gt; That is I'm saying that neither DD
&gt; nor Hagrid were in in the secret at GH and used some magical creature
&gt; who could bypass the secret at GH, Fawkes or a Thestral. I suppose
&gt; Hagrid could apparate with Fawkes at GH (much like Fawkes apparates at
&gt; the Ministry). Thsi still uses Fawkes to bypass the secret.

I expect most members of the order were in on the secret, they just
could not tell anyone else because of the spell. Hagrid and Sirius (at
the very least) clearly knew already, since otherwise they would not
have been able to locate the house.

&gt; But if Harry is picked up near midnight, then why does it take so long
&gt; to fly from GH to Privet Drive?

Why do you assume it took a long time? Hagrid had an appointment to
meet Dumbledore at Privet Drive at Midnight of November 1. If he
thinks it will take 15 minutes to get there, then obviously he is not
going to set out until about 11:45 pm.

Note that, even without the bike, Hagrid has access to magic enabling
him to fly. That is how he got to the Rock where Harry was hiding with
the Dursley's.

&gt; Was Harry taken to some safe haven
&gt; between GH and Privet Drive?

I assume he was somewhere other than Godrick's Hollow or Privet Drive.

&gt; What was DD doing during this time? Why
&gt; wasn't he with Harry? What was more important?

That is indeed an interesting question.

&gt; This is the problem of the missing day...we know have 6 books and more
&gt; than 2500 pages and we can't explain what happened to Harry in this
&gt; missing day.

Based on my experience with 1-year olds, I expect he probably soiled
his diapers a few times, had to be fed, had to be changed, had to be
rocked to sleep &amp; had to be watched carefully when he insisted on
running around.

&gt; Fine, I can accept that some things have to be revealed
&gt; only at the end: the nature of the Lilly's sacrifice, how the curse
&gt; backfires, the meaning of the scar, exactly how LV and Harry are tied
&gt; together. But if Harry was taken to some safe place between GH and
&gt; Privet Drive why does that have to be so hush hush? Is it a big deal in
&gt; the story?

I am not sure that THAT (particularly) is such a big deal. If Hagrid
had orders to rescue Harry, and meet Dumbledore 24 hours later, (as was
evidently the case) then it is easy to imagine what Hagrid might have
been doing with baby in the meantime. The interesting question, is why
Dumbledore gave Hagrid these instructions, and what Dumbledore was
doing in the meantime. I suspect you are right in supposing that there
is something about the story that we don't know yet.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; 1) Because DD does not go with Hagrid...Hagrid meets up with the EVIL
&gt; McG and spills the beans about Privet Drive. the EVIL McG then goes to
&gt; Privet Drive to wait for Hagrid not DD - the GOOD McG waits for DD, the
&gt; EVIL McG waits for Hagrid, no? Of course, DD is at Privet Drive so we
&gt; Harry is safe from EVIL McG. But this only highlights the danger Harry
&gt; is in.

I'm not sure McG (the Evil &amp; Only) ever met Hagrid that night. I
expect someone overheard Hagrid's (unquestionably loud) argument with
Sirius described in Book 3, where the beans were spilled that Harry was
going to his Aunt &amp; Uncle, and McG got wind of it. A few hours and a
bit of research would then suffice to determine the name &amp; address of
Harry's sole surviving relative.

&gt; 2) Because DD does not go with Hagrid...Hagrid gets to GH just before
&gt; Sirius gets there. WE know Sirius was NOT the SK. But at that time it
&gt; was assumed he was. The real SK, Pettigrew, a DE, went into hiding.
&gt; Hagrid does not suspect Sirius of bad intentions - and WE know that he
&gt; shouldn't. But that just highlights the danger that Harry was in.
&gt; Someone else (Sirius in this case) gets to almost gets to GH before
&gt; Hagrid does. What if Sirius does get to GH before Hagrid and picks up
&gt; Harry? Harry is safe but what happens to DD's master plan? We know the
&gt; DE's are looking to see what happened. Is it IMPOSSIBLE for a DE to get
&gt; to GH first before Hagrid? What IF Pettigrew came back and took Harry?
&gt; How but just the plain fact that there is a 1 year old with two dead
&gt; parents in an almost destroyed house - is there no danger in that?

The logical conclusion is that Hagrid was immediately on hand, and his
rescue of Harry was almost immediate (before the Muggles started
swarming around). DD may not have lost much time by contacting Hagrid.

&gt; If in book 7 it is revealed
&gt; that DD sent Hagrid to pick up Harry because he had to attend some
&gt; Ministry meeting, it's not going to cut it for me. Others may disagree
&gt; of course.

Well, perhaps he did not want to attract attention to Harry's
importance by going personally. (This obviously, did not work out).
But I agree that it is an interesting question why, precisely,
Dumbledore arranged things the way he did.

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#43: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 06:22:10 by gjw

On 16 Jul 2006 10:29:35 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; I'm not unwilling to believe that Rowling could choose to make the
&gt;&gt; bird talk if she wanted to. I'm simply pointing out that she has not
&gt;&gt; chosen to do so.
&gt;Agreed. I have no evidence that Fawkes can talk.Of course this does not
&gt;mean he can't talk.
&gt;
&gt;But like I have said, any reconstruction of events at Godric's Hollow
&gt;before the revleation in book 7 must include some assumptions.
&gt;
&gt;DD seems to know a lot about the goings on at GH. Some suppose he went
&gt;there or found out by some magical means. Some suppose someone who was
&gt;at GH told him what happened. ALL of these are possibilities. Which is
&gt;the most LIKELY? I think a spy at GH is the most likely. Let's cal this
&gt;assumption #1.
&gt;
&gt;Who was the spy? Some have suggested a wizard like Snape or Lupin. Some
&gt;have suggested a magical creature such as a house elf. ALL are
&gt;possibilities. Which is most LIKELY? I think a magical creature is the
&gt;most likely spy. Let's call this assumption #2.
&gt;
&gt;Which magical creature was th spy? Some have suggested a house-elf. I
&gt;suggest Fawkes is a good candidate. In my view, he is the best
&gt;candidate.. (I'm not claiming credit for saying this first. Someone
&gt;else may have claimed the same thing somewhere on the Internet but I
&gt;don't know.) Let's call this assumption #3.
&gt;
&gt;Now assumption #3 requires that Fawkes be able to communicate with DD
&gt;somehow. This is assumption #4
&gt;
&gt;So the logic goes DD's knowledge -&gt; #1 (spy at GH) -&gt; #2 (magical
&gt;creatuire spy) -&gt; #3 (Fawkes is spy) -&gt; #4 (Fawkes can communicate with
&gt;DD).


If the first three assumptions were relatively certain, I'd be more
tolerant of the 4th assumption. But you have based unsupported
assumptions on other unsupported assumptions.

#1. We simply haven't been told how Dumbledore knew about the murders
of Lily &amp; James, whether it was first hand knowledge, or whether he
was told. #2. If he was told by someone else, there's no particular
reason why it should be a magical creature rather than another person,
or even some semi-mechanical magical device which alerted him. #3. Of
the many magical creatures to choose from, Fawkes is one of the least
likely spies because he is a dumb animal (&quot;dumb&quot;, in the sense of
being unable to speak). Something more humanoid, like a house elf, or
even a centaur, would seem a more likely choice insofar as they could
at least tell someone about what they saw (although one can't really
imagine a centaur walking around in the Muggle world). #4. As far as
I know, there is no evidence in the books to support the idea that
Fawkes can communicate with Dumbledore (at least, not to an extent
which would allow him to tell details of what happened at Godric's
Hollow).

It's possible that JKR simply hasn't thought it through. Her
storyline regarding that day seems somewhat spotty.

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#44: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 09:35:18 by Toon

On 16 Jul 2006 11:09:42 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:


&gt;All, I'm saying is what if we suppose that DD and Hagrid DID NOT know
&gt;the secret of GH, does it make more sense? Yes, it is a supposition but
&gt;so is supposing that DD and Hagrid did know. IMHO, the storyline makes
&gt;more sense if DD and Hagrid do not know the secret of GH but use some
&gt;means to bypass the secret (Fawkes or a Thestral).

I'm sure DD knew. But Hagrid. He's a Blabbermouth. Especially when
drunk.


&gt;Look you're saying that the FC was broken. I'm saying that it is not.

I'm not saying this one was, but there has to be a way. I doubt DD
intended the Potters to stay hidden forever. Other secrets might need
to be made known. A permanent FC seems a bit extreme and counter
productive.

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#45: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 10:18:37 by dsueme

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt; 3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.

If I'm correct, the issue of the chance meeting and the motorcycle
wasn't made clear until HP3. If so, then what we have here is an
example of JKR trying to embellish the story and in the process
introducing a contradiction.

Mind if I change the channel? I'm bored.

Dave

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#46: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 15:45:45 by Benjamin Esham

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt; gjw wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; But it is highly unlikely that the bird would be able to actually tell
&gt; &gt; Dumbledore anything about what happened at Godric's Hollow.
&gt;
&gt; OK let me get this straight...you are willing to believe that a 150 year
&gt; old wizard has a legendary creature called a phoenix as a companinion and
&gt; said creature can flay carrying 4 people despite it's size, cry tears that
&gt; heal, attack a much larger and dangerous opponent (another legendary
&gt; creature, a basilisk), apparate where wizards cannot apparate (the
&gt; Ministry), &quot;swallow&quot; an Aveda Kadevera curse and get reborn, serve as a
&gt; lookout, and sing a song of morurning ofr the dead wizard...but NOT that
&gt; it can communicate with DD? Oh no, NO!! That's just crazy. Communicating
&gt; with DD, what nonesense!

These traits are hardly indicative of sapience. For all we know, all of the
above qualities are possessed by normal, household wizarding pets.
Obviously, this specific combination is unique to the phoenix, but the point
is that a number of unusual qualities does not prove that Fawkes is
self-aware, let alone intelligent.

I'll admit, the ability to serve as a lookout is potentially indicative of
intelligence, but this is still a stretch from being able to converse in any
spoken or otherwise complex language. As for realizing that his master is
dead, this is merely a logical extension of the ability of many Muggle pets
to know when their masters are away for extended periods.

Fawkes acting as a spy is an attractive idea, but IMO it is not possible
given the evidence in the book (or at least the evidence you've presented
here).

Cheers,
--
Benjamin D. Esham
<a href="mailto:bdesham&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">bdesham&#64;gmail.com</a> | AIM: bdesham128 | Jabber: same as e-mail
&quot;Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier
dying on the battlefield will think hard before starting a war.&quot;
— Otto von Bismarck

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#47: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 15:46:30 by ag30476

David Sueme wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; 3) Hagrid did not plan on meeting Sirius and getting his bike.
&gt;
&gt; If I'm correct, the issue of the chance meeting and the motorcycle
&gt; wasn't made clear until HP3. If so, then what we have here is an
&gt; example of JKR trying to embellish the story and in the process
&gt; introducing a contradiction.
Nope, the chance meeting is made clear in book 1. DD asked Hagrid where
he got the bike. Hagrid says he borrowed it from from Sirius. DD did
not expect Hagrid to be at Privet Drive on the bike. Rather, it is
likely that DD expected Hagrid on some other form of transport.

&gt; Mind if I change the channel? I'm bored.
Don't tell me you cam here looking for intelligent, engaging
coversation...this is usenet.

Report this message

#48: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 15:49:14 by ag30476

Toon wrote:
&gt; On 16 Jul 2006 11:09:42 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt;All, I'm saying is what if we suppose that DD and Hagrid DID NOT know
&gt; &gt;the secret of GH, does it make more sense? Yes, it is a supposition but
&gt; &gt;so is supposing that DD and Hagrid did know. IMHO, the storyline makes
&gt; &gt;more sense if DD and Hagrid do not know the secret of GH but use some
&gt; &gt;means to bypass the secret (Fawkes or a Thestral).
&gt;
&gt; I'm sure DD knew. But Hagrid. He's a Blabbermouth. Especially when
&gt; drunk.
Even Blabbermouth Hagrid can't tell the FC secret...it's magic!

&gt; &gt;Look you're saying that the FC was broken. I'm saying that it is not.
&gt;
&gt; I'm not saying this one was, but there has to be a way. I doubt DD
&gt; intended the Potters to stay hidden forever. Other secrets might need
&gt; to be made known. A permanent FC seems a bit extreme and counter
&gt; productive.
But it's magic!

Report this message

#49: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 16:08:55 by ag30476

gjw wrote:
&gt; On 16 Jul 2006 10:29:35 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt;So the logic goes DD's knowledge -&gt; #1 (spy at GH) -&gt; #2 (magical
&gt; &gt;creatuire spy) -&gt; #3 (Fawkes is spy) -&gt; #4 (Fawkes can communicate with
&gt; &gt;DD).
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; If the first three assumptions were relatively certain, I'd be more
&gt; tolerant of the 4th assumption. But you have based unsupported
&gt; assumptions on other unsupported assumptions.
Actually it the first 2 assumptions were what you disagreed with then
it makes no sense to attack the 3rd by attacking the 4th (ie Fawkes
can't communicate so Fawkes can't be the spy). As I said in my original
post we know of several magical creatures who can break the rules:
house-elves can apparate in Hogwarts grounds while wizards can't, a
portrait is used to communicate with 12 Grimmauld, and Fawkes can
apperate in the Ministry while wizards can't. Fawkes can also survive
(be reborn) after an AK curse while wizards can.

&gt; #1. We simply haven't been told how Dumbledore knew about the murders
&gt; of Lily &amp; James, whether it was first hand knowledge, or whether he
&gt; was told.
Of course not...this is an attempt to find out what happened before
thigs are revealed in book 7...this is part of the fun of reading a
detective novel...it's a game.

&gt; #2. If he was told by someone else, there's no particular
&gt; reason why it should be a magical creature rather than another person,
&gt; or even some semi-mechanical magical device which alerted him.
If a person told him then why didn't that person take Harry with
him/her? This leaves an SOD whole, at least for me.

If a magical remote-sesning device told him then it leaves a cheesy
flavor...Hermione: &quot;So DD knew what went on at GH because of the
never-heard-of-before Eye of Agamotto referred to in my copy of Cliched
Magical Plot Hole Fixes Through the Ages.&quot;

&gt; #3. Of the many magical creatures to choose from, Fawkes is one of the least
&gt; likely spies because he is a dumb animal (&quot;dumb&quot;, in the sense of
&gt; being unable to speak). Something more humanoid, like a house elf, or
&gt; even a centaur, would seem a more likely choice insofar as they could
&gt; at least tell someone about what they saw (although one can't really
&gt; imagine a centaur walking around in the Muggle world).
First that is rather speciest. But that aside, we don't know that
Fawkes can or cannot talk. We do know that Fawkes is magically
exceptional enough to survive an encounter with LV. But like I said it
could be a house-elf or a portrait. The reason I favor Fawkes is that
he is an already existing character. That is it is easier to suspend
belief with &quot;Oh I see, Fawkes was there&quot; than it is with &quot;Oh I see,
this never before heard of character was there, of course&quot;


&gt; #4. As far as I know, there is no evidence in the books to support the idea that
&gt; Fawkes can communicate with Dumbledore (at least, not to an extent
&gt; which would allow him to tell details of what happened at Godric's
&gt; Hollow).
There is no evidence that he can't. Fawkes seems intelligent. And DD
seems to be able to gather info silently rhogh Legimency. Anyway, your
focusing way too much on this non-talking Fawkes issue. It's not
critical that Fawkes talk. It's not critical that Fawkes be the spy.
Like I said, Fawkes is my choice but not the only one.

&gt; It's possible that JKR simply hasn't thought it through. Her
&gt; storyline regarding that day seems somewhat spotty.
Perhaps but then that would be disappointing. But given how much debate
there is here, I would doubt that. Plus, in all likelihood, JK probably
wrote the events of the night at GH before she started writing as well
as the backstories of the major characters (LV, Harry, etc.). So when
book 7 comes out and she reveals what she has hidden until now, it will
all seem to fit together (which it always did because it was written
that way). And partof the fun (for some) in reading detective stories
is trying to figure out this &quot;hidden&quot; info from the limited/broken up
info the author gives throughout the book.

Report this message

#50: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 16:12:09 by Benjamin Esham

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt; DaveD wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Gosh - book 7's going to be awfully complicated if it's going to come
&gt; &gt; close to covering that sort of back story!!!
&gt;
&gt; I don't think the story is complicated. JK wrote a consistent story and
&gt; then just left out certain key parts. Naturally our guesses as to what
&gt; that story is will sound strange (or will be downright strange in some
&gt; cases).
&gt;
&gt; I figure, we will get a flashback or expository scene where the events at
&gt; GH will be explained. (Of course, JK could get artsy and show multiple POV
&gt; flashbacks so that we never know what really happened but I doubt that.)

We should also consider the possibility that the inordinately long jump in
time was simply an error on JKR's part :-) I'm not really sure, myself, but
I'm not sure what significance it could have to the story if e.g. Hagrid
went to Godric's Hollow by thestral.

--
Benjamin D. Esham
<a href="mailto:bdesham&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">bdesham&#64;gmail.com</a> | AIM: bdesham128 | Jabber: same as e-mail
&quot;The wizards represent all that the true 'Muggle' most fears:
They are plainly outcasts and comfortable with being so. Nothing
is more unnerving to the truly conventional than the unashamed
misfit!&quot; — J.K. Rowling

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#51: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 17:02:32 by ag30476

<a href="mailto:nystulc&#64;cs.com" target="_blank">nystulc&#64;cs.com</a> wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; Can we assume this, that he rescues Harry on or about midnight? If so,
&gt; &gt; let me know how you know this.
&gt;
&gt; We do not know precisely. We know his parents were killed on
&gt; &quot;Halloween&quot;, which is the night following October 31. This could
&gt; include midnight, or perhaps some hours after midnight, but would
&gt; probably not extend to the dawn of the following morning. In any
&gt; event, the news had already had time to spread significantly by
&gt; sunrise, since Owls had already begun to fly in all directions by that
&gt; time.
Yes the news of LV's defeat was widespread by daybreak but this does
not tell us when Harry was rescued. And yes, it would make more sense
if Harry is rescued quickly but we just don't know this.

&gt; We know that Hagrid must have rescued Harry very shortly after the
&gt; attack. He seems to have been the first wizard on the scene, and he
&gt; got Harry out before the Muggles started swarming around. (Godrick's
&gt; Hollow is a Muggle village, and a house blowing up is a hard thing not
&gt; to notice).
Like I said, it makes sense that Hagrid gets there quickly. But
&quot;muggles swarming around&quot; is ambigous. The muggles must have seen/heard
something. But then why didn't they enter the house? We just don't
know. And the fact that Hagrid was the first wizard on the scene is
surprising too. Like I have said before, why wasn't it DD or Sirius by
apparation?

&gt; BTW, I think the the timeline, to which you provided a link, is
&gt; probably mistaken in suggesting that Hagrid meets McGonagall before he
&gt; rescues Harry.
That could be. But if McG is evil (and I agree with you that she is)
then she is at Privet Drive to get Harry (not confirm facts with DD).
If so, then why can't she intercept Hagrid before Privet Drive? If McG
can't get to the GH hiding spot and can't follow Hagrid to the GH
hiding spot because the FC is still in effect, then it makes sense (to
me) that the EVIL McG would wait for Hagrid where she knew he would be.

&gt; &gt; If Harry was picked up at midnight then,
&gt; &gt; this could throw a wrench in theory.
&gt;
&gt; Well, he was definitely picked up that Halloween Night, before the
&gt; Muggle's started swarming around. The precise hour probably makes
&gt; little difference for your theories.
Yeah...but I sort of want to explain the missing day without resorting
to Hagrid taking Harry to a 3rd location or delaying for hours at GH.
It's a matter of taste...I like the idea of GH being travel-wise
distant from both Hogwarts and Privet Drive. But that may not be
possible as you say. And as you say that does not effect that there was
a magical creature spying at GH, that the FC is still in effect, and
that Hagrid took some flying magical transport to GH to take Harry to
Privet Drive.

&gt; &gt; That is I'm saying that neither DD
&gt; &gt; nor Hagrid were in in the secret at GH and used some magical creature
&gt; &gt; who could bypass the secret at GH, Fawkes or a Thestral. I suppose
&gt; &gt; Hagrid could apparate with Fawkes at GH (much like Fawkes apparates at
&gt; &gt; the Ministry). Thsi still uses Fawkes to bypass the secret.
&gt;
&gt; I expect most members of the order were in on the secret, they just
&gt; could not tell anyone else because of the spell. Hagrid and Sirius (at
&gt; the very least) clearly knew already, since otherwise they would not
&gt; have been able to locate the house.
It would seem as though Hagrid knew. And it would seem logical that DD
knew. But then this seemingly simple assumption (DD/Hagrid and or other
OotP'ers knew) leads to contradictions. If DD knew, then why didn't he
go instead of Hagrid. If Hagrid knew, then he knew the secret, and
everyone thought that Sirius was the secret keeper, then even the
(relatively) slow-witted Hagrid would have figured out (incorrectly WE,
the readers, know) that Sirius betrayed James and Lilly.

But if we assume that James, Lilly and Sirius trusted noone, not even
DD, with the secret except for Pettigrew, then the plot holes are
fixed. For ex, DD sends Hagrid because DD has a (relatively) slow
magical means to bypass the secret (a Thestral for ex). DD has to fly
to GH then to Privet Drive (because you can't apparate or Floo with a
baby). Now it makes sense that DD sends Hagrid because DD can't be
missing for a whole day. DD has to find Snape and verify the Dark Mark
is gone, inform the ministry, look for Sirius (the secret keeper), help
round up the DE's, etc. If he's gone a whole day rescuing Harry then
many bad things can happen. But if DD knows the secret and can apparate
(with or without Hagrid) at GH and pickup Harry in a few minutes, then
he should.

That is if we assume DD did not know the secret, then all we need a
magical exception to work around the magical absolute. And JK has done
this many times without breaking SOD: you can't apparate in Hogwarts
grounds unless you are a house-elf of course, you can't apparate at the
Ministry unless you are Fawkes, you can't block the AK curse unless a
mother sacrifices herself or you have a phoenix with you. This case is
just another: you can't get to the secret hiding place of GH unless X.

If we assume, DD does know the secret, then we and JK must work around
the plot wholes. And since this is the main story (LV v Harry), the
story must be very tight indeed or there just won't be any SOD (at
least for some).



&gt; &gt; But if Harry is picked up near midnight, then why does it take so long
&gt; &gt; to fly from GH to Privet Drive?
&gt;
&gt; Why do you assume it took a long time? Hagrid had an appointment to
&gt; meet Dumbledore at Privet Drive at Midnight of November 1. If he
&gt; thinks it will take 15 minutes to get there, then obviously he is not
&gt; going to set out until about 11:45 pm.
Then we have to assume at least one safe haven in between GH and Privet
or that Hagrid delayed unexplicably at Privet Drive or that Hagrid flew
a holding pattern for all this time. The question is: what happened
during that missing day?

&gt; Note that, even without the bike, Hagrid has access to magic enabling
&gt; him to fly. That is how he got to the Rock where Harry was hiding with
&gt; the Dursley's.
Yes he flew. But how? He could have used a Thestral again. But we just
don't know. But then this event is not central to the main storyline so
I don't know how productive it is to figure out the main story line
except to say that Hagrid probably has some means of flight.

&gt; &gt; Was Harry taken to some safe haven
&gt; &gt; between GH and Privet Drive?
&gt;
&gt; I assume he was somewhere other than Godrick's Hollow or Privet Drive.
Yes that would be a safe assumption.

&gt; &gt; What was DD doing during this time? Why
&gt; &gt; wasn't he with Harry? What was more important?
&gt;
&gt; That is indeed an interesting question.
Agreed.

&gt; &gt; Fine, I can accept that some things have to be revealed
&gt; &gt; only at the end: the nature of the Lilly's sacrifice, how the curse
&gt; &gt; backfires, the meaning of the scar, exactly how LV and Harry are tied
&gt; &gt; together. But if Harry was taken to some safe place between GH and
&gt; &gt; Privet Drive why does that have to be so hush hush? Is it a big deal in
&gt; &gt; the story?
&gt;
&gt; I am not sure that THAT (particularly) is such a big deal. If Hagrid
&gt; had orders to rescue Harry, and meet Dumbledore 24 hours later, (as was
&gt; evidently the case) then it is easy to imagine what Hagrid might have
&gt; been doing with baby in the meantime.
See that's the thing that sort of blows SOD for me. If Hagrid had to
babysit Harry for 24 hours then it's the sort of thing that should have
a short explanation like

&quot;Hagrid,&quot; said Dumbledore, sounding relieved. &quot;At last. And where did
you get that motorcycle?&quot;

&quot;Borrowed it, Professor Dumbledore, sir,&quot; said the giant, climbing
carefully off the motorcycle as he spoke. &quot;Young Sirius Black lent it
to me. I've got him, sir.&quot;


&quot;No problems, were there?&quot;

&quot;No, sir -- house was almost destroyed, but I got him out all right
before the Muggles started swarmin' around. CLEANED HIM UP. FED HIM.
HAD HIM CHECKED OUT. He fell asleep as we was flyin' over Bristol.&quot;

&gt; &gt; 1) Because DD does not go with Hagrid...Hagrid meets up with the EVIL
&gt; &gt; McG and spills the beans about Privet Drive. the EVIL McG then goes to
&gt; &gt; Privet Drive to wait for Hagrid not DD - the GOOD McG waits for DD, the
&gt; &gt; EVIL McG waits for Hagrid, no? Of course, DD is at Privet Drive so we
&gt; &gt; Harry is safe from EVIL McG. But this only highlights the danger Harry
&gt; &gt; is in.
&gt;
&gt; I'm not sure McG (the Evil &amp; Only) ever met Hagrid that night. I
&gt; expect someone overheard Hagrid's (unquestionably loud) argument with
&gt; Sirius described in Book 3, where the beans were spilled that Harry was
&gt; going to his Aunt &amp; Uncle, and McG got wind of it. A few hours and a
&gt; bit of research would then suffice to determine the name &amp; address of
&gt; Harry's sole surviving relative.
That's possible. But it's also probable that Hagrid also talked
directly with McG. It seems likely to me that DD would confirm the
conversation between Hagrid and McG with Hagrid.

&gt; The logical conclusion is that Hagrid was immediately on hand, and his
&gt; rescue of Harry was almost immediate (before the Muggles started
&gt; swarming around). DD may not have lost much time by contacting Hagrid.
That would seem like the logical conclusion but it leaves such a big
plot hole for me, that I question it. If Hagrid can get there in a few
minutes, then DD can get there faster (he doesn't have to find Hagrid,
tell him where to go, etc.) I know I'm repeatingmyself here but if DD
can't get there faster than Hagrid and in fact can't get there fast and
noone else can get there, then it is not unreasonable for DD to send
Hagrid.

&gt; &gt; If in book 7 it is revealed that DD sent Hagrid to pick up Harry because he
&gt; &gt; had to attend some Ministry meeting, it's not going to cut it for me.
&gt;&gt; Others may disagree of course.
&gt;
&gt; Well, perhaps he did not want to attract attention to Harry's
&gt; importance by going personally. (This obviously, did not work out).
&gt; But I agree that it is an interesting question why, precisely,
&gt; Dumbledore arranged things the way he did.
Indeed.

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#52: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 17:25:07 by ag30476

Benjamin Esham wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; OK let me get this straight...you are willing to believe that a 150 year
&gt; &gt; old wizard has a legendary creature called a phoenix as a companinion and
&gt; &gt; said creature can flay carrying 4 people despite it's size, cry tears that
&gt; &gt; heal, attack a much larger and dangerous opponent (another legendary
&gt; &gt; creature, a basilisk), apparate where wizards cannot apparate (the
&gt; &gt; Ministry), &quot;swallow&quot; an Aveda Kadevera curse and get reborn, serve as a
&gt; &gt; lookout, and sing a song of morurning ofr the dead wizard...but NOT that
&gt; &gt; it can communicate with DD? Oh no, NO!! That's just crazy. Communicating
&gt; &gt; with DD, what nonesense!
&gt;
&gt; These traits are hardly indicative of sapience. For all we know, all of the
&gt; above qualities are possessed by normal, household wizarding pets.
&gt; Obviously, this specific combination is unique to the phoenix, but the point
&gt; is that a number of unusual qualities does not prove that Fawkes is
&gt; self-aware, let alone intelligent.
I never claimed Fawkes was self-aware or had a particular IQ or can
speak. All I was claiming is that he was at GH and communicated to DD
what happened. How? Well maybe Fawkes spoke English. Maybe DD
understands the song of the phoenix. Maybe DD used Legimency. Maybe DD
used the pensieve of Fawkes. Maybe DD used a spell to see what Fawkes
saw. Who knows? Not me. That is a very particular detail and no clue is
given in the canon.

I'm trying to get at the big picture from what is written. And even
though I know I'm being repetative and I have said this before let me
review: DD seems to have a lot of knowledge about what happened at GH.
However, it also seems that he did not see Harry before Privet Drive
and that he did not go to GH. (If he did then why did he now pick up
Harry himself?). So many have supposed that DD had a spy. This is the
first thing that should be agreed or disagreed with not whether Fawkes
can communicate with DD which is a later and much less important
assumption.

Following the logic, then some have supposed that wizard was the spy at
GH. But then why didn't they take Harry. So some have supposed that the
spy was a magical creature such as house-elf or a portrait. This is the
second assumption that should be challenged not whether Fawkes can
communicate with DD which is a later and much less important
assumption.

I have proposed Fawkes as the spy because he has all the capabilities
and is extremely powerful and is trusted by DD. The only thing missing
is that he does not communicate openly in the text. So I assume that
somehow DD can communicate with Fawkes.

By challenging that Fawkes can communicate, you are challenging that
Fawkes ws the spy. But by leaving unchallenged the first two
assumptions, you imply to be agreeing with the first two suppositions.
Is this the case?

Look, whether you think Fawkes can communicate with DD is a matter of
taste. And if you think the spy was someone else that is OK. I think JK
can pull off Fawkes being the spy very easily in the book 7. Nobody has
questioned how magically powerful elves are bound to wizard houses or
how a phoenix's tears can (coneniently for the plot) heal Harry. It's
magic and JK has built up enough SOD on magic. But she must explain how
DD knew what he knew.

&gt; I'll admit, the ability to serve as a lookout is potentially indicative of
&gt; intelligence, but this is still a stretch from being able to converse in any
&gt; spoken or otherwise complex language. As for realizing that his master is
&gt; dead, this is merely a logical extension of the ability of many Muggle pets
&gt; to know when their masters are away for extended periods.
&gt;
&gt; Fawkes acting as a spy is an attractive idea, but IMO it is not possible
&gt; given the evidence in the book (or at least the evidence you've presented
&gt; here).
The only thing we don't know is how DD can know what Fawkes saw. But
like I said, that is a rather small detail. And if you can't buy, it's
OK. There are other candidates for the spy, a house-elf or a portrait.
I just happen to like Fawkes as the spy. For one thing, for a house-eld
or a portrait to be the spy, then it has to be a new character. And
though JK does often introduce knew characters, I don't think she will
do it in this case - call it my preference, that's all it is.

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#53: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 17:29:31 by ag30476

Benjamin Esham wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; I don't think the story is complicated. JK wrote a consistent story and
&gt; &gt; then just left out certain key parts. Naturally our guesses as to what
&gt; &gt; that story is will sound strange (or will be downright strange in some
&gt; &gt; cases).
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I figure, we will get a flashback or expository scene where the events at
&gt; &gt; GH will be explained. (Of course, JK could get artsy and show multiple POV
&gt; &gt; flashbacks so that we never know what really happened but I doubt that.)
&gt;
&gt; We should also consider the possibility that the inordinately long jump in
&gt; time was simply an error on JKR's part :-) I'm not really sure, myself, but
&gt; I'm not sure what significance it could have to the story if e.g. Hagrid
&gt; went to Godric's Hollow by thestral.
It' possible but it's not normally the way you write this things -
precisely because you can run into errors. It's easier to write the
crime then leave out the details then it is to write a detective story
then write the crime at the end.

Plus in interviews she's given said how she wrote - pile of papers
tracking bits of info, she wrote the last chapter of book 7 to have
something to write too, she showed the first and last chapters to her
publisher, etc.

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#54: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-17 23:56:51 by Markku Uttula

gjw wrote:
&gt; although one can't really imagine a centaur walking around in the
&gt; Muggle world

Why not? Hippogrifs do (walk around in the muggle world) ... at least I
think there was a quote to support this in FBaWtFT, but since I don't
have my books with me at this point, I can't provide it right now. It
had something to do with people having Hippogrifs as pets and being
required by law to use some hiding spells on them when living close to
muggles - or something to that effect.

--
Markku Uttula

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#55: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 00:07:59 by Markku Uttula

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; I never claimed Fawkes was self-aware or had a particular IQ or can
&gt; speak. All I was claiming is that he was at GH and communicated to DD
&gt; what happened. How? Well maybe Fawkes spoke English. Maybe DD
&gt; understands the song of the phoenix. Maybe DD used Legimency. Maybe DD
&gt; used the pensieve of Fawkes. Maybe DD used a spell to see what Fawkes
&gt; saw. Who knows? Not me. That is a very particular detail and no clue
&gt; is given in the canon.

I don't know if this has already been stated in this thread, but Mrs
Figg used her cat as a lookout, and it did go and &quot;alert&quot; Mrs Figg.
Taking into account that Mrs Figg is a squib, I'm imagining a rather
dreadfull Lassiesque communication &quot;What is it Mr Tibbies?&quot; *yank yank*
&quot;Mundungus?&quot; *yank yank* &quot;HE LEFT?!?&quot; *yank* &quot;And left the boy all by
himself&quot; *yank yank* &quot;I will kill him, just wait 'till Dumbledore hears&quot;
*yank yank* (and all the cat *really* wants is to be fed).

--
Markku Uttula

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#56: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 00:12:21 by Markku Uttula

drusilla wrote:
&gt; Could it be that the Fidelius Charm gets broken once the secret is
&gt; revealed?

Umm, no... The secret of OotP's headquarters is revealed to many, but
the secret still doesn't brake.

I think the Occam's Razor on this subject is that *if* the secret was
*where* the Potters were *hiding*, it would most likely have been broken
as soon as they stopped being hiding and started being dead.

--
Markku Uttula

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#57: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 00:54:28 by ag30476

Markku Uttula wrote:
&gt; drusilla wrote:
&gt; &gt; Could it be that the Fidelius Charm gets broken once the secret is
&gt; &gt; revealed?
&gt;
&gt; Umm, no... The secret of OotP's headquarters is revealed to many, but
&gt; the secret still doesn't brake.
&gt;
&gt; I think the Occam's Razor on this subject is that *if* the secret was
&gt; *where* the Potters were *hiding*, it would most likely have been broken
&gt; as soon as they stopped being hiding and started being dead.

Markku Uttula wrote:
&gt; drusilla wrote:
&gt; &gt; Could it be that the Fidelius Charm gets broken once the secret is
&gt; &gt; revealed?
&gt;
&gt; Umm, no... The secret of OotP's headquarters is revealed to many, but
&gt; the secret still doesn't brake.
&gt;
&gt; I think the Occam's Razor on this subject is that *if* the secret was
&gt; *where* the Potters were *hiding*, it would most likely have been broken
&gt; as soon as they stopped being hiding and started being dead.
The problem with that is that it is a very strange secret: the secret
hides where James and Lilly are but not Harry, the ultimate taget. That
is *if* the secret was *where* the Potters were *hiding* AND the secret
stopped when they were dead *then* the secret did not hide where
*Harry* was hiding.
DE spy: Where are the Potters?
Sirius: Can't tell. Sorry FC you know.
DE spy: So you can't tell me where Harry Potter is huh?
Sirius: Oh you meant Harry. Sure. He's at GH at ...

But we have an example of an FC at 12 Grimmauld. The DE's know the OotP
has an HQ. They just can't get there. Like Harry, they could be write
in front of it and not see it. But if someone foolishly hands them a
piece of paper written by the SK then BWAHAHAHAHA.

If you want to apply Occam's razor to the nature of the secret of the
hiding place of the Potters it's that it works like 12 Grimmauld.
Wizards can talk about the Potters hiding at GH. This does not mean the
secret is broken. It just means they know that the Potters were hiding
somewhere in GH but if they try to find the hiding spot, they can't.

What location is hidden we don't know. It could be a room (like the
Room of Requirement - not an FC but similar). It could be the house
like 12 Grimmauld (protected by an FC). It could be the whole street
like Diagon Alley (not an FC but similar in that it's hidden to certain
people ie muggles). It could be all of GH. Who knows? Not me. The exact
details I can't get from the clues given.

But suppose the FC at GH protects a house just like the FC at 12
Grimmauld. Then DE spies can go to GH and search GH but they can't find
it. They can follow someone right to the front of the house, but once
the person goes inside, the DE can't follow. A person who knows the
secret but is not the SK can know how to get there and can enter the
house but can't show anyone else how to get there. How does it work
exactly? It's magic - this is where suspension of belief comes in.

But what is not part of suspending belief in the HP world is plain old
(seeming) plot holes - actions/event which just have no explanation (so
far).

Why does DD not pick up Harry himself or at least go with Hagrid to GH
to check on Harry or the scene of the crime if DD knows the secret and
DD can get there quickly?

How does DD know so much about what happened to Harry at GH before ever
seeing Harry? And if he went to GH to find out, then why didn't he go
to GH with Hagrid in the first place?

If Hagrid picks up Harry at or near midnight why does it take nearly 24
hours to get to Privet Drive? If it does not take nearly 24 hours to go
from GH to Privet Drive, then where was Harry taken?

How was Hagrid planning to take Harry from GH to Privet Drive before
Sirius conveniently and accidently arrives at GH?

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#58: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 00:57:27 by gjw

On 17 Jul 2006 07:08:55 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; #4. As far as I know, there is no evidence in the books to support the idea that
&gt;&gt; Fawkes can communicate with Dumbledore (at least, not to an extent
&gt;&gt; which would allow him to tell details of what happened at Godric's
&gt;&gt; Hollow).

&gt;There is no evidence that he can't.

The fact that we've been reading about the bird for years, and he has
never uttered a word might be a clue...



&gt;&gt; It's possible that JKR simply hasn't thought it through. Her
&gt;&gt; storyline regarding that day seems somewhat spotty.'

&gt;Perhaps but then that would be disappointing.

I know. But unfortunately, life has a tendency to be disappointing.
And JKR has a tendency to leave dangling threads. (We still haven't
reconciled that whole changing-the-past issue in GoF, for instance.
Or the number of students at Hogwarts...)


&gt;But given how much debate
&gt;there is here, I would doubt that. Plus, in all likelihood, JK probably
&gt;wrote the events of the night at GH before she started writing as well
&gt;as the backstories of the major characters (LV, Harry, etc.). So when
&gt;book 7 comes out and she reveals what she has hidden until now, it will
&gt;all seem to fit together (which it always did because it was written
&gt;that way).

To tell you the truth, I don't think we'll learn that much in the next
book about what happened at Godric's Hollow. I suspect that we'll
learn that Voldemort gave Lily a chance to escape to placate Snape.
And there's the remote possibility that Snape was there at the time of
the murders. But other than that, I don't think she'll tell us much
about the incident.

As such, I haven't spent much time trying to make sense of the
timeline.

I can't remember off the top of my head whether there is any proof
that Dumbledore told Hagrid where to go to get baby Harry.

If not, here is a simple scenario which might fill in most of the
blanks:

Once Lily &amp; James are dead, the secret is broken, and their former
hiding place becomes visible once more. Hagrid happens to be in the
neighborhood, spots the burning ruins of their home, discovers the
bodies of the Potters and rescues the surviving baby Harry. Using
some magical communication device (e.g. a set of matching mirrors, the
old &quot;head in the fireplace&quot; routine, an owl), Hagrid contacts
Dumbledore and tells him what happened. Dumbledore instructs him to
bring the baby to Privet Drive. Sirius shows up with his flying
motorbike and gives it to Hagrid, who uses it to fly to Privet Drive.

Does that cover most of the bases?

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#59: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 00:58:35 by gjw

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 00:56:51 +0300, &quot;Markku Uttula&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:markku.uttula&#64;disconova.com" target="_blank">markku.uttula&#64;disconova.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; although one can't really imagine a centaur walking around in the
&gt;&gt; Muggle world
&gt;
&gt;Why not?


Consider how Muggles would react to the sight of a centaur.

Report this message

#60: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 01:22:46 by ag30476

gjw wrote:
&gt; The fact that we've been reading about the bird for years, and he has
&gt; never uttered a word might be a clue...
Or a cleverly hidden fact like that Snape is good or McG is bad or ...
or ... Besides your focusing on the fact the Fawkes doesn't and can't
talk fine. This does not mean that DD can't find out what Fawkes saw. I
gave several options that DD might have.

&gt; &gt;&gt; It's possible that JKR simply hasn't thought it through. Her
&gt; &gt;&gt; storyline regarding that day seems somewhat spotty.'
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Perhaps but then that would be disappointing.
&gt;
&gt; I know. But unfortunately, life has a tendency to be disappointing.
Life is certainly dissapointing and joyful and confusing and filled
with purpose and confusing...life is all that. But we are talking about
a storyline. And all indications are that she wrote it in the logical
way that you write these kinds of stories...you write the full story of
events then hide parts from the readers...then the readers waste
precious time figuring out what the original story was rather than
living life.

&gt; And JKR has a tendency to leave dangling threads. (We still haven't
&gt; reconciled that whole changing-the-past issue in GoF, for instance.
&gt; Or the number of students at Hogwarts...)
Yes but she has written 2600+ pages...some minor errors are bound to
come up. In fact, nothing says the HP world must be consistent or
logical...it's a fantasy world. But the story of the curse and what
happened at GH is the crucial part of the backstory in this series of
books...and figuring it out is part of the game just like figuring out
the discontinuities in the other parts of the story.

&gt; To tell you the truth, I don't think we'll learn that much in the next
&gt; book about what happened at Godric's Hollow.
That would be really disappointing since that is what we and the
characters in the book want to know - what is that scar and what is
LV's connection to Harry. I don't believe JK will disappoint.

&gt; I suspect that we'll learn that Voldemort gave Lily a chance to escape to
&gt; placate Snape. And there's the remote possibility that Snape was there at the
&gt; time of the murders. But other than that, I don't think she'll tell us much
&gt; about the incident.
See, you too are suspecting things based on clues given...

&gt; As such, I haven't spent much time trying to make sense of the
&gt; timeline.
You must have more life than I do then...

&gt; I can't remember off the top of my head whether there is any proof
&gt; that Dumbledore told Hagrid where to go to get baby Harry.
It would not make sense otherwise...dumb ol'Hagrid gets the baby first,
tells the wise ol'DD about it and the DD goes &quot;Oh you got him? Take him
to Privet Drive. I'll meet you in 24 hours. I have some important
things to attend to.&quot;

&gt; If not, here is a simple scenario which might fill in most of the
&gt; blanks:
Except your scenario is not so simple...

&gt; Once Lily &amp; James are dead, the secret is broken, and their former
&gt; hiding place becomes visible once more.
This is the first contradiction. The secret hides James and Lilly but
not Harry, the target.


&gt; Hagrid happens to be in the neighborhood, spots the burning ruins of their
&gt; home, discovers the bodies of the Potters and rescues the surviving baby
&gt; Harry.
How convenient. I guess nobody was really that worried about Harry and
the Potters given that there is a prophecy, a direct threat by LV
against Harry, an 11 year reign of terror by LV before that night, DD
suggest using the powerful FC charm which is the same charm used to
protect the OotP HQ, James and Sirius agree to use the charm but
secretly switch the SK to be Pettigrew in order to have added security,
and Sirius visits Pettigrew that night to make sure the the SK is where
he is supposed to be.

&gt; Using some magical communication device (e.g. a set of matching mirrors, the
&gt; old &quot;head in the fireplace&quot; routine, an owl), Hagrid contacts
&gt; Dumbledore and tells him what happened.
That could be except Hagrid can't do much magic. Only adult wizards are
seen using such tricks. If Hagrid had one then DD gave it to him, then
DD was expecting a 2 way with Hagrid, then Hagrid did not just happen
to be in the neighborhood. But applying YOUR logic this assumption is
impossible. We have NEVER seen Hagrid communicate this way, so
therefore he cannot. Of course, I'm just pointing this out to show how
1) ANY reconstruction must make assumptions and 2) many such
assumptions are stretches from the book.

I say DD can somehow know what Fawkes saw. You say Hagrid has some kind
of two way device. Neither has been seen before in the books. So they
are equivalent assumptions. But your assumption is based on the prior
assumptions that 1) the secret was broken once James an Lilly were dead
and 2) Hagrid was near GH. Those make sense to you but not to me.


&gt; Dumbledore instructs him to bring the baby to Privet Drive. Sirius shows up
&gt; with his flying motorbike and gives it to Hagrid, who uses it to fly to
&gt; Privet Drive.
And prior to that Hagrid was planning to get to Privet Drive how? By
using the Knight Bus?
Hagrid: &quot;DoubleD this is the big man. I got the package. How do I get
it delivered? Over.&quot;
DD: &quot;Figure it out dummy.&quot;

&gt; Does that cover most of the bases?
Not even close.

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#61: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 03:18:53 by Sky Rider

On 17 Jul 2006 16:22:46 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> looked at Ron with an
evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;gjw wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;&gt; Hagrid happens to be in the neighborhood, spots the burning ruins of their
&gt;&gt; home, discovers the bodies of the Potters and rescues the surviving baby
&gt;&gt; Harry.

&gt;How convenient. I guess nobody was really that worried about Harry and
&gt;the Potters given that there is a prophecy, a direct threat by LV
&gt;against Harry, an 11 year reign of terror by LV before that night,...

&lt;beeeep... &gt;

This hadn't been established then and wouldn't be until Voldie
attacked *either* Harry *or* Neville and since Neville's parents were
Aurors it might be supposed *they* would have been the primary target.
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

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#62: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 03:24:21 by drusilla

Markku Uttula escribió:
&gt; gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; although one can't really imagine a centaur walking around in the
&gt;&gt; Muggle world
&gt;
&gt; Why not? Hippogrifs do (walk around in the muggle world) ... at least I
&gt; think there was a quote to support this in FBaWtFT, but since I don't
&gt; have my books with me at this point, I can't provide it right now. It
&gt; had something to do with people having Hippogrifs as pets and being
&gt; required by law to use some hiding spells on them when living close to
&gt; muggles - or something to that effect.
&gt;

Muggles are aware of the existence of such magical beasts (although now
those are mythology or tales), so, at some point, wizards weren't as
careful as they are now or they weren't so elusive with muggles.

Report this message

#63: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 03:26:16 by drusilla

Markku Uttula escribió:
&gt; drusilla wrote:
&gt;&gt; Could it be that the Fidelius Charm gets broken once the secret is
&gt;&gt; revealed?
&gt;
&gt; Umm, no... The secret of OotP's headquarters is revealed to many, but
&gt; the secret still doesn't brake.

Is revealed to the members of the Order, while the Secret is about the
Order being hidden. I doubt James or Lily weren't able to tell where
they were to each other.

&gt; I think the Occam's Razor on this subject is that *if* the secret was
&gt; *where* the Potters were *hiding*, it would most likely have been broken
&gt; as soon as they stopped being hiding and started being dead.

Possible. Or, when LV found them, because they were no more in hiding too.

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#64: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 06:14:47 by dicconf

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153149907.519344.209630&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153149907.519344.209630&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;I'm trying to get at the big picture from what is written. And even
&gt;though I know I'm being repetative and I have said this before let me
&gt;review: DD seems to have a lot of knowledge about what happened at GH.
&gt;However, it also seems that he did not see Harry before Privet Drive
&gt;and that he did not go to GH. (If he did then why did he now pick up
&gt;Harry himself?).

Why did Dd not pick up Harry himself? Why did he send Hagrid?

Dd knew what we found out in OotP, that giants are unusually
resistant to magical attack. Hagrid has the equivalent of a Shield
spell that doesn't have to be cast. He's big enough to fight off
a normal physical attack. He has experience of Azkaban, so he can
stand up to the feelings stimulated by Dementors for a while at least.
And he can fly on a thestral or a hippogriff to get there, though my
guess is that a thestral would be preferred simply because fewer
muggles would be able to see it flying back to Hogwarts and because
it could probably defend itself rather well, even better than a
hippogriff can.

=Tamar

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#65: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 06:52:32 by Sky Rider

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 04:14:47 -0000, <a href="mailto:dicconf&#64;radix.net" target="_blank">dicconf&#64;radix.net</a> (Richard Eney)
looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153149907.519344.209630&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153149907.519344.209630&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&lt;snip&gt;

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;it could probably defend itself rather well, even better than a
&gt;hippogriff can.

Where would you get that info from?? I'd have thought the hippogriff
was far better armed than a Thestral... not that I've ever seen one of
course (nor wish to thanks) :)
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

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#66: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 06:57:30 by dicconf

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152866891.513063.162300&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152866891.513063.162300&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; Seriously, someone could still have been alive in GH and
&gt;we know the value DD puts on life.

Yes, he feels it isn't quite as important as some other things.
But OTOH, this is the child of the prophecy, and their last chance
to defeat Voldemort.

&gt; And if it is Harry, it is even more
&gt;important because I think by the time of the events at GH, DD knows the
&gt;prophecy and its implication: Harry must live. Again, I ask what was
&gt;more important than Harry's safety IF DD could get to GH QUICKLY? (If
&gt;DD can get to GH by appartaion, we are talking about a few minutes of
&gt;DD's time.)

DD may have been talking to the centaurs for astrological advice. After
all, one supposedly fool-proof magical protection has failed; the next
one will have to be really good. We know he's never studied divination,
so maybe he also ignored astrology.
&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;McG asks DD in book 1, chapter 1:
&gt;'&quot;What they're saying,&quot; she pressed on, &quot;is that last
&gt;night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to
&gt;find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James Potter
&gt;are -- are -- that they're -- dead. &quot;'
&gt;
&gt;Who are 'they'? How can 'they' not know the importance of GH?

How do 'they' know that the Potters were in GH? Was it widespread
knowledge? Why didn't McG say &quot;The rumor is that Lily and James
Potter were hiding there and...&quot;?

&gt;&gt; &gt; I think on close (or perhaps over-)
&gt;&gt; &gt; analysis, they don't add up. Hagris is instructed to take Harry to
&gt;&gt; &gt; Privet Drive and we learn that it's because it is (thanks to the blood
&gt;&gt; &gt; charm) the safest place for Harry. That means, DD, wants Harry safe,
&gt;&gt; &gt; naturally with all the DE's still around. And at that time, DE's were
&gt;&gt; &gt; hidden everywhere. It seems the most logical instruction for DD to give
&gt;&gt; &gt; Hagrid is &quot;Get the baby and take it straight to Privet Drive.&quot;
&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;And then DD has the NERVE to say:
&gt;'&quot;Hagrid,&quot; said Dumbledore, sounding relieved. &quot;At last.

DD has been checking his astrology/astronomy watch. I think he was waiting
for the most auspicious time to complete the blood-protection spell. The
spell was probably keyed to the letter he had written in advance, and was
cast by the act of putting it into the basket with baby Harry. The most
auspicious time, as determined by the centaurs (speculation), was the
following midnight, so Hagrid was told to bring the baby there at the
right time. He was a little bit late, but not enough to spoil the spell.
That's why Dd was relieved.

&gt;And where did you get that motorcycle?&quot;'

Having Dd ask about the motorcycle is JKR's way of distracting us from the
time element she had set up.

&gt;We're talking minutes, mere minutes, for DD to go pick up Harry IF he
&gt;can do it.
&lt;snips&gt;
&gt;And as for casting the spell on Privet Drive...that reverses
&gt;priorities. Imagine that DD spends a good part of the day researching
&gt;and preparing the blood charm. He meets McG, waits for Hagrid and
&gt;then...
&gt;Hagrid: &quot;Well you sees sir when I got there I was too to late...&quot;
&gt;DD: &quot;Oh bother&quot;

The muggles would have been swarming around as soon as there was an
explosion. Even if the nearest muggle fire company and rescue squad
equivalent was 20 minutes away, there is only a small window of time
open for Hagrid to arrive, find Harry, meet Sirius, and leave before
the muggles got there. The MoM arrived after the muggles, because
they questioned the muggles as witnesses.

Harry's jagged cut on his face was not yet a scar. It may have
stopped bleeding but it hadn't even scabbed over yet - it is described
as a &quot;small cut&quot;. It is DD who says it will be a scar.

I hate it, but I think there's another time turner involved. DD
finds out that Stuff Happened. He uses magic, finds out when and
where, realizes that nobody has mentioned finding a baby, so he
sends Hagrid back to be the one who finds and removes the baby.
They also know they can't prevent the deaths they've already heard
about; all they can do is try to save Harry. Hagrid goes back
through time, flies (call it a thestral) to the site, finds Harry,
meets Sirius and gets the motorcycle, and leaves. Hagrid then uses the
time-turner to return to the later time.

I still can't figure in how Hagrid and Dd seem not to know about
Sirius being caught and accused. McG was sitting on a brick wall
since dawn, so she has an excuse. Nor can I think of a way to have
Hagrid return at a later time so as to avoid hearing about Sirius.
If Sirius's encounter with Pettigrew was later and in a different
place, maybe it was enough later - after the following midnight -
but to be honest, I think JKR just messed up the timeline.

&gt;&gt; &gt; And surely there existed the possibility that someone was alive. If DD
&gt;&gt; &gt; can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is not logical for DD to
&gt;&gt; &gt; send Hagrid.

Hagrid is naturally protected against magical attack... born with a
Shield spell, so to speak.

=Tamar

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#67: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 07:18:41 by Sky Rider

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 04:57:30 -0000, <a href="mailto:dicconf&#64;radix.net" target="_blank">dicconf&#64;radix.net</a> (Richard Eney)
looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152866891.513063.162300&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152866891.513063.162300&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;&gt;Who are 'they'? How can 'they' not know the importance of GH?

&gt;How do 'they' know that the Potters were in GH? Was it widespread
&gt;knowledge? Why didn't McG say &quot;The rumor is that Lily and James
&gt;Potter were hiding there and...&quot;?

Nobody said they *knew*... there was a rumour Voldie turned up
*looking for* James and Lily...

&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; I think on close (or perhaps over-)
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; analysis, they don't add up. Hagris is instructed to take Harry to
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Privet Drive and we learn that it's because it is (thanks to the blood
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; charm) the safest place for Harry. That means, DD, wants Harry safe,
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; naturally with all the DE's still around. And at that time, DE's were
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; hidden everywhere. It seems the most logical instruction for DD to give
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Hagrid is &quot;Get the baby and take it straight to Privet Drive.&quot;

The death eaters would have still been so stunned by the loss of their
leader than they would need time to regroup. There is no indication
Voldie ever gave them much freedom of action. Also being formed into
small cells they'd have no way of communicating properly with one
another after his disappearance so may well have just hidden until
they decided what individual action to take.

And of course, as Snape said, there was the possibility that Harry was
in fact a great dark wizard himself... so they'd not have tried to
kill him until they were *sure* they were doing the right thing.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;I still can't figure in how Hagrid and Dd seem not to know about
&gt;Sirius being caught and accused. McG was sitting on a brick wall
&gt;since dawn, so she has an excuse. Nor can I think of a way to have
&gt;Hagrid return at a later time so as to avoid hearing about Sirius.
&gt; If Sirius's encounter with Pettigrew was later and in a different
&gt;place, maybe it was enough later - after the following midnight -
&gt;but to be honest, I think JKR just messed up the timeline.

Why? there is no suggestion in the books to indicate that Sirius
caught up with Wormtail the same night... or same week come to that!
It may have been weeks before he'd tracked him down.

Sirius had no reason to try to find Harry. He knew Harry was safe, and
would have been far more desperate to locate the person he knew had
betrayed his friends to their deaths. And of course there had been no
communication between him and Dumbledore else he would have made sure
he knew he was innocent... at least of the deaths of James and Lily.

&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; And surely there existed the possibility that someone was alive. If DD
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is not logical for DD to
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; send Hagrid.

&gt;Hagrid is naturally protected against magical attack... born with a
&gt;Shield spell, so to speak.

And we don't know where Dumbledore was at the time of the attack or
what he was doing.
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

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#68: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 07:19:18 by dicconf

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:t5qob2po5kh43lb1v04r7tlbquh2vuahoh&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">t5qob2po5kh43lb1v04r7tlbquh2vuahoh&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
Sky Rider &lt;<a href="mailto:home&#64;therange.com" target="_blank">home&#64;therange.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 04:14:47 -0000, <a href="mailto:dicconf&#64;radix.net" target="_blank">dicconf&#64;radix.net</a> (Richard Eney)
&gt;looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153149907.519344.209630&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153149907.519344.209630&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;it could probably defend itself rather well, even better than a
&gt;&gt;hippogriff can.
&gt;
&gt;Where would you get that info from?? I'd have thought the hippogriff
&gt;was far better armed than a Thestral... not that I've ever seen one of
&gt;course (nor wish to thanks) :)

Thestrals are meat-eaters and have sharp teeth. Hooves can be sharp,
too. Hagrid is the only person known to have tamed thestrals. They
can fly as fast as a magical steam train for hours and they don't seem
to get tired; I think hippogriffs can get tired. I don't know whether
hippogriff wings are less efficient when wet, but I think the leathery
wings of thestrals probably are not affected by bad weather. Overall,
I'd say thestrals have some potential advantages in some situation.

=Tamar

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#69: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 07:43:02 by Sky Rider

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 05:19:18 -0000, <a href="mailto:dicconf&#64;radix.net" target="_blank">dicconf&#64;radix.net</a> (Richard Eney)
looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :

&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:t5qob2po5kh43lb1v04r7tlbquh2vuahoh&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">t5qob2po5kh43lb1v04r7tlbquh2vuahoh&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
&gt;Sky Rider &lt;<a href="mailto:home&#64;therange.com" target="_blank">home&#64;therange.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 04:14:47 -0000, <a href="mailto:dicconf&#64;radix.net" target="_blank">dicconf&#64;radix.net</a> (Richard Eney)
&gt;&gt;looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;&gt;&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153149907.519344.209630&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153149907.519344.209630&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;&gt;&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;&gt;&gt;it could probably defend itself rather well, even better than a
&gt;&gt;&gt;hippogriff can.

&gt;&gt;Where would you get that info from?? I'd have thought the hippogriff
&gt;&gt;was far better armed than a Thestral... not that I've ever seen one of
&gt;&gt;course (nor wish to thanks) :)

&gt;Thestrals are meat-eaters and have sharp teeth. Hooves can be sharp,
&gt;too. Hagrid is the only person known to have tamed thestrals. They
&gt;can fly as fast as a magical steam train for hours and they don't seem
&gt;to get tired; I think hippogriffs can get tired. I don't know whether
&gt;hippogriff wings are less efficient when wet, but I think the leathery
&gt;wings of thestrals probably are not affected by bad weather. Overall,
&gt;I'd say thestrals have some potential advantages in some situation.

Against the savage beak of that eagle head?? And those claws?? The way
he snaffled sown those ferrets in the film was an indication of how
nasty he could be... and of course he didn't hesitate to attack a
werewolf!

Even *Hagrid* was wary of letting the kids near Buckbeak, which speaks
volumes by itself... but he let them near the Thestrals without
comment... even tho they are invisible.

Can you imagine a team of Buckbeaks pulling carriages in any docile
fashion??

I think the real difference is between a hunter and scavenger and the
hippogriff is a hunter.... a bit like the difference between an eagle
and a vulture :)
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

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#70: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 08:04:31 by ag30476

Sky Rider wrote:
&gt; On 17 Jul 2006 16:22:46 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> looked at Ron with an
&gt; evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt; &gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Hagrid happens to be in the neighborhood, spots the burning ruins of their
&gt; &gt;&gt; home, discovers the bodies of the Potters and rescues the surviving baby
&gt; &gt;&gt; Harry.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;How convenient. I guess nobody was really that worried about Harry and
&gt; &gt;the Potters given that there is a prophecy, a direct threat by LV
&gt; &gt;against Harry, an 11 year reign of terror by LV before that night,...
&gt;
&gt; &lt;beeeep... &gt;
&gt;
&gt; This hadn't been established then and wouldn't be until Voldie
&gt; attacked *either* Harry *or* Neville and since Neville's parents were
&gt; Aurors it might be supposed *they* would have been the primary target.
I'm not saying that Neville wasn't a target. I'm saying that Harry was
a target. And so was Neville. It doesn't take away from Harry being a
target. And Neville and Harry were the targets not their parents. The
prophecy referred to a newborn not its parents.

The point is given that Harry is a target then Hagrid can't just happen
to be &quot;in the neighborhood of GH&quot; with a way to communicate 2-way with
DD (as gjw) supposed. He had to posted watching the house. But then
this in itself just raises more issues.

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#71: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 08:10:50 by ag30476

Richard Eney wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153149907.519344.209630&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153149907.519344.209630&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt;I'm trying to get at the big picture from what is written. And even
&gt; &gt;though I know I'm being repetative and I have said this before let me
&gt; &gt;review: DD seems to have a lot of knowledge about what happened at GH.
&gt; &gt;However, it also seems that he did not see Harry before Privet Drive
&gt; &gt;and that he did not go to GH. (If he did then why did he now pick up
&gt; &gt;Harry himself?).
&gt;
&gt; Why did Dd not pick up Harry himself? Why did he send Hagrid?
&gt;
&gt; Dd knew what we found out in OotP, that giants are unusually
&gt; resistant to magical attack. Hagrid has the equivalent of a Shield
&gt; spell that doesn't have to be cast. He's big enough to fight off
&gt; a normal physical attack. He has experience of Azkaban, so he can
&gt; stand up to the feelings stimulated by Dementors for a while at least.
&gt; And he can fly on a thestral or a hippogriff to get there, though my
&gt; guess is that a thestral would be preferred simply because fewer
&gt; muggles would be able to see it flying back to Hogwarts and because
&gt; it could probably defend itself rather well, even better than a
&gt; hippogriff can.
He's also trusting enough to not suspect Sirius of foul play (though
reliable enough not to hand over the baby to him). And he's loose
enough with his tongue to tell McGonogall about Privet drive, a piece
of information that for whatever reason, DD did not tell McG.

True Hagrid is tough but to send Hagrid, DD still has to find him and
instruct him. And if Hagrid apparates, floos or portkeys to GH then DD
can get there just as fast. If DD goes with Hagrid then Hagrid can take
Harry while DD investigates the house. Regardless of how tough you
suppose Hagrid to be, Dd is tougher still. It is still safer and saner
for DD to go to GH IF he can get there quickly.

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#72: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 08:37:03 by dicconf

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:ousob29al6j1tka6dni433s12585vfboek&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">ousob29al6j1tka6dni433s12585vfboek&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
Sky Rider &lt;<a href="mailto:home&#64;therange.com" target="_blank">home&#64;therange.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;<a href="mailto:dicconf&#64;radix.net" target="_blank">dicconf&#64;radix.net</a> (Richard Eney)
&gt;&gt;Sky Rider &lt;<a href="mailto:home&#64;therange.com" target="_blank">home&#64;therange.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href="mailto:dicconf&#64;radix.net" target="_blank">dicconf&#64;radix.net</a> (Richard Eney)
&lt;about a thestral:&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;it could probably defend itself rather well, even better than
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;a hippogriff can.
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Where would you get that info from?? I'd have thought the hippogriff
&gt;&gt;&gt;was far better armed than a Thestral... not that I've ever seen one
&gt;&gt;&gt;of course (nor wish to thanks) :)
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Thestrals are meat-eaters and have sharp teeth. Hooves can be sharp,
&gt;&gt;too. Hagrid is the only person known to have tamed thestrals. They
&gt;&gt;can fly as fast as a magical steam train for hours and they don't seem
&gt;&gt;to get tired; I think hippogriffs can get tired. I don't know whether
&gt;&gt;hippogriff wings are less efficient when wet, but I think the leathery
&gt;&gt;wings of thestrals probably are not affected by bad weather. Overall,
&gt;&gt;I'd say thestrals have some potential advantages in some situation.
&gt;
&gt;Against the savage beak of that eagle head?? And those claws?? The way
&gt;he snaffled sown those ferrets in the film was an indication of how
&gt;nasty he could be... and of course he didn't hesitate to attack a
&gt;werewolf!

Thestral teeth can rip and tear large chunks of raw beef, quite rapidly.
The beak only has one pair of points. And the thestral has the advantage
of being invisible. We don't know whether hippogriffs can see thestrals.
If hippogriffs tire and thestrals don't, then a thestral, or a group of
them, could tire out and beat a hippogriff even if it could see them.

&gt;Even *Hagrid* was wary of letting the kids near Buckbeak, which speaks
&gt;volumes by itself... but he let them near the Thestrals without
&gt;comment... even tho they are invisible.

Good point. But the kids weren't attacking the thestrals. The
comparison is not about general nastiness but about effectiveness of
response to active attack.

&gt;Can you imagine a team of Buckbeaks pulling carriages in any docile
&gt;fashion??

Hippogriffs are proud, which can be a weakness.

&gt;I think the real difference is between a hunter and scavenger and the
&gt;hippogriff is a hunter.... a bit like the difference between an eagle
&gt;and a vulture :)

Egyptian vultures are hunters. :-)

=Tamar

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#73: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 08:46:27 by dicconf

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153203050.155952.238000&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153203050.155952.238000&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;Richard Eney wrote:
&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;&gt; Dd knew what we found out in OotP, that giants are unusually
&gt;&gt; resistant to magical attack. Hagrid has the equivalent of a Shield
&gt;&gt; spell that doesn't have to be cast.

&lt;snip, rearrange&gt;
&gt;Regardless of how tough you suppose Hagrid to be, Dd is tougher still.

IMO, Dd is not tougher than Hagrid. More magical, yes, but not tougher.
Even back then, when Dd was 16 years younger and uninjured, Dd was
a very old man physically. Dd is over 150, Hagrid is a mere 67 or so.
Dd's magical protections have to be cast; Hagrid's are in effect all
the time. (The wizards don't like the idea of Hagrid, but they should
be absolutely terrified of Maxime - she's fully trained as well as
having the innate magical protection.)

=Tamar

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#74: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 16:51:39 by ag30476

Richard Eney wrote:
&gt; IMO, Dd is not tougher than Hagrid. More magical, yes, but not tougher.
&gt; Even back then, when Dd was 16 years younger and uninjured, Dd was
&gt; a very old man physically. Dd is over 150, Hagrid is a mere 67 or so.
&gt; Dd's magical protections have to be cast; Hagrid's are in effect all
&gt; the time. (The wizards don't like the idea of Hagrid, but they should
&gt; be absolutely terrified of Maxime - she's fully trained as well as
&gt; having the innate magical protection.)
But that's all supposition with no basis in text or in SOD/consistency.
It's like an argument about who whether Spiderman or Batman would win.

We know that Hagrid is formidable but limited magically. Could Hagrid
survive a direct confrontation with LV, DD, Snape, Sirius? Maybe. Who
cares?

The problem with sending Hagrid instead of DD is just not 'sending
Hagrid instead of DD'. IF DD can get to GH quickly and get back quickly
from GH then DD should go to GH RIGHT AWAY with Hagrid or without. Here
are the advantages of going to GH:
- DD can be sure that Harry is safe
- DD has more ways of getting to GH quickly than Hagrid. For one, DD
can apparate.
- If Hagrid is safe, the team of Hagrid and DD is even safer. One can
hold off danger, while the other takes Harry away from danger.
- DD can investigate GH and Harry for clues to what happened to LV and
Harry when the curse backfired.

But DD does not take these advantages despite the fact that the cost is
minimal timewise. If DD goes to GH then he needs to find or communicat
with Hagrid which you had to do anyway, apparate at GH with Hagrid or
apparate at GH and wait for Hagrid to come by his means, make sure
Harry is safe, give him to Hagrid with instruction to take him to
Privet Drive at such and such a time, give the once over to GH for
clues, and return to where he needs to be. ALL THAT can be done in
what, 5 or 10 minutes? There's still a whole DAY between that and
Privet Drive for DD to do everything else he needs to do.

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#75: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 17:50:54 by ag30476

Richard Eney wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152866891.513063.162300&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152866891.513063.162300&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt; And if it is Harry, it is even more
&gt; &gt;important because I think by the time of the events at GH, DD knows the
&gt; &gt;prophecy and its implication: Harry must live. Again, I ask what was
&gt; &gt;more important than Harry's safety IF DD could get to GH QUICKLY? (If
&gt; &gt;DD can get to GH by appartaion, we are talking about a few minutes of
&gt; &gt;DD's time.)
&gt;
&gt; DD may have been talking to the centaurs for astrological advice. After
&gt; all, one supposedly fool-proof magical protection has failed; the next
&gt; one will have to be really good. We know he's never studied divination,
&gt; so maybe he also ignored astrology.
Maybe. Perhaps. This too is a possibility. You make suppositions just
like I do. Neither possibility negates the other. What we have is a
choice between possible explanations. In fact, my 2 assumptions (1. DD
and Hagrid could not go directly GH because they did not know the
secret of GH and 2. DD had a relatively slow transport that could
bypass the secret and so he sent Hagrid by this means) and yours (DD
went to the Centaurs to get astrology advice) are not necessarily
contradictory. But you are making the further assumption that DD HAD to
go the Centaurs to get astrology advice RIGHT AWAY and this is the
reason he sent Hagrid to GH. The question then is which explanation is
more likely? And it makes no sense to me that DD has a sense of urgency
about getting astrological advice but not about rescuing Harry.

&gt; &gt;McG asks DD in book 1, chapter 1:
&gt; &gt;'&quot;What they're saying,&quot; she pressed on, &quot;is that last
&gt; &gt;night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to
&gt; &gt;find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James Potter
&gt; &gt;are -- are -- that they're -- dead. &quot;'
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Who are 'they'? How can 'they' not know the importance of GH?
&gt;
&gt; How do 'they' know that the Potters were in GH? Was it widespread
&gt; knowledge?
Oh come on! That is plain English. 'They' can only mean 'other
wizards', that is other than DD and McG. How many other wizards? 2? 20?
200? Who knows? But it is 2 or more.

&gt; Why didn't McG say &quot;The rumor is that Lily and James
&gt; Potter were hiding there and...&quot;?
She did just not in your style. Compare
Richard: &quot;The rumor is that Lily and James Potter were hiding&quot;
McG: &quot;...they're saying [other wizards are making rumors]...that last
night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. [and] He went to find the
Potters. [where they are hiding]&quot;

&gt; &gt;And then DD has the NERVE to say:
&gt; &gt;'&quot;Hagrid,&quot; said Dumbledore, sounding relieved. &quot;At last.
&gt;
&gt; DD has been checking his astrology/astronomy watch. I think he was waiting
&gt; for the most auspicious time to complete the blood-protection spell. The
&gt; spell was probably keyed to the letter he had written in advance, and was
&gt; cast by the act of putting it into the basket with baby Harry. The most
&gt; auspicious time, as determined by the centaurs (speculation), was the
&gt; following midnight, so Hagrid was told to bring the baby there at the
&gt; right time. He was a little bit late, but not enough to spoil the spell.
&gt; That's why Dd was relieved.
It does not matter why DD is worried that Hagrid is late. My point was
that given the usual scenario (Hagrid picks up Harry close to midnight,
does something with him for 24 hours, then comes to Privet Drive on
Sirius' bike which Hagrid - rightly or wrongly - judged to be no worse
than the mode he was planning on using) that it is pointless for DD to
be worried because the plan has so many places where a delay can be
introduced.

&gt; &gt;And where did you get that motorcycle?&quot;'
&gt;
&gt; Having Dd ask about the motorcycle is JKR's way of distracting us from the
&gt; time element she had set up.
There's not reason to claim that because JK gives no hint otherwise
that the exact moment is important - your supposition. In fact, though
DD is worried about Hagrid being late to meet him, he does not seem
like an overly rushed person. The three stop to look at and talk about
Harry.

&gt; The muggles would have been swarming around as soon as there was an
&gt; explosion. Even if the nearest muggle fire company and rescue squad
&gt; equivalent was 20 minutes away, there is only a small window of time
&gt; open for Hagrid to arrive, find Harry, meet Sirius, and leave before
&gt; the muggles got there. The MoM arrived after the muggles, because
&gt; they questioned the muggles as witnesses.
That assumes a 2nd supposition - that the FC was broken and the muggles
could get to the hiding spot. And that is a supposition - it is never
explicitly stated that the FC is broken. Further, it supposes that
certain people (DD and Hagrid) know the secret - another supposition
because this is never explicitly stated. It may seem like an obvious
deduction: Hagrid went to the GH hiding spot and so either Hagrid knew
the secret or the FC was broken. But then either of these deductions
only lead to contradiction. My proposal that Hagrid got to the GH
hiding spot by some exceptional magical means that bypasses the secret
supposes that (1) the secret was not broken (2) DD/Hagrid did not know
it and (3) this magical bypass exists but it logically explains the
actions of DD and Hagrid.

As for the interviewing of muggles in GH...like I've said we can
suppose that they saw/heard something that night. Many then suppose
that the FC was broken and the muggles could see the house which they
could not see before. But this is suppostion because it is not
explicitly stated in the text. The question again is which is most
likely.

&gt; Harry's jagged cut on his face was not yet a scar. It may have
&gt; stopped bleeding but it hadn't even scabbed over yet - it is described
&gt; as a &quot;small cut&quot;. It is DD who says it will be a scar.
It is a magical scar. So what does this imply to you? We know that it
is about 24 hours later because McG waited all day.

&gt; I hate it, but I think there's another time turner involved. DD
&gt; finds out that Stuff Happened. He uses magic, finds out when and
&gt; where, realizes that nobody has mentioned finding a baby, so he
&gt; sends Hagrid back to be the one who finds and removes the baby.
&gt; They also know they can't prevent the deaths they've already heard
&gt; about; all they can do is try to save Harry. Hagrid goes back
&gt; through time, flies (call it a thestral) to the site, finds Harry,
&gt; meets Sirius and gets the motorcycle, and leaves. Hagrid then uses the
&gt; time-turner to return to the later time.
Time-travel introduces so many possibilities that it has to be
discounted. If DD can go back in time why can't he go back in time to
when he met Riddle or why can't LV later on go back in time...on and on
and on...time travel does not simplify matters it complicates them.


&gt; I still can't figure in how Hagrid and Dd seem not to know about
&gt; Sirius being caught and accused.
I think here you are supposing that DD sends Hagrid back in time and
now you have to suppose not only about the things that happened but
about what the time travellers may have known. This is why time travel
is such a bad choice to fix suspension of disbelief/continuity
problems.

In the non-time travel reconstruction DD thinks he know Sirius is the
SK and testifies to that later. Hagrid apparently did not know this
when he met Sirius and is too dense (sorry to say) to ask how and why
Sirius is there at GH.

&gt; McG was sitting on a brick wall since dawn, so she has an excuse.
About not knowing about Sirius? Sorry not sure what you mean.

&gt; Nor can I think of a way to have Hagrid return at a later time so as to avoid
&gt; hearing about Sirius.
Hagrid not hearing about Sirius is only one of the smallest problems
with the time travel resolution.

&gt; If Sirius's encounter with Pettigrew was later and in a different
&gt; place, maybe it was enough later - after the following midnight -
&gt; but to be honest, I think JKR just messed up the timeline.
This is a bad assumption because the well-known and easy way to write a
detective-type story is to write the crime first then to leave out
parts as you tell the story from different POVs. The parts to leave out
are relatively easy to figure out because all you have to do is ask who
knew what and when. To the readers, the different POVs may not
reconcile but that is the intended effect. Then the curtain is pulled
back at the end and everyone says &quot;Oh I see.&quot;

&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; And surely there existed the possibility that someone was alive. If DD
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is not logical for DD to
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; send Hagrid.
&gt;
&gt; Hagrid is naturally protected against magical attack... born with a
&gt; Shield spell, so to speak.
So? This may protect Hagrid. But it is Harry who needs protection. Can
Hagrid stop a whole group of DE's of the power of Bellatrix and Lucius
Malfoy? Can Hagrid protect Harry if an AK is cast at Harry. Can Hagrid
protect Sirius' bike or whatever means he was going to use if that is
targeted? What if the bad guys bring an equally strong creature as
Hagrid? Or simply what if Sirius gets to Harry before Hagrid? Hagrid
only beats Sirius there by a few minutes. If Sirius picks up Harry,
harry is safe but what happens to DD's and the Centaur's master plan.

Report this message

#76: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 18:00:02 by ag30476

Sky Rider wrote:
&gt; &gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152866891.513063.162300&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152866891.513063.162300&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; I think on close (or perhaps over-)
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; analysis, they don't add up. Hagris is instructed to take Harry to
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Privet Drive and we learn that it's because it is (thanks to the blood
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; charm) the safest place for Harry. That means, DD, wants Harry safe,
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; naturally with all the DE's still around. And at that time, DE's were
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; hidden everywhere. It seems the most logical instruction for DD to give
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Hagrid is &quot;Get the baby and take it straight to Privet Drive.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; The death eaters would have still been so stunned by the loss of their
&gt; leader than they would need time to regroup. There is no indication
&gt; Voldie ever gave them much freedom of action. Also being formed into
&gt; small cells they'd have no way of communicating properly with one
&gt; another after his disappearance so may well have just hidden until
&gt; they decided what individual action to take.
&gt;
&gt; And of course, as Snape said, there was the possibility that Harry was
&gt; in fact a great dark wizard himself... so they'd not have tried to
&gt; kill him until they were *sure* they were doing the right thing.
Maybe. Maybe not. My question is do you think it likely that DD would
take such deductions as he's assurance that it is as safe to send
Hagrid by himself to pck up Harry. Look, Hagrid beats Sirius by only a
few moments. If Sirius picks up Harry first than what happens? Suddenly
DD has a big problem to deal with. Harry is alive and apparently taken
by the betrayer SK. What does DD do then. It just does not make sense
to me, in terms of suspension of disbelief, that DD would not go to GH
himself IF he could go there quickly. That is, this &quot;MORE IMPORTANT
THINGS TO DO&quot; that DD was doing and prevented him from going to GH has
got to be more important that saving Harry...and after 6 books and 2600
pagers we know that saving Harry is the most important thing period

&gt; &gt;I still can't figure in how Hagrid and Dd seem not to know about
&gt; &gt;Sirius being caught and accused. McG was sitting on a brick wall
&gt; &gt;since dawn, so she has an excuse. Nor can I think of a way to have
&gt; &gt;Hagrid return at a later time so as to avoid hearing about Sirius.
&gt; &gt; If Sirius's encounter with Pettigrew was later and in a different
&gt; &gt;place, maybe it was enough later - after the following midnight -
&gt; &gt;but to be honest, I think JKR just messed up the timeline.
&gt;
&gt; Why? there is no suggestion in the books to indicate that Sirius
&gt; caught up with Wormtail the same night... or same week come to that!
&gt; It may have been weeks before he'd tracked him down.
Richard is here supposing that DD send Hagrid back in time with a time
turner which opens up a whole can of worms.

&gt; Sirius had no reason to try to find Harry. He knew Harry was safe, and
&gt; would have been far more desperate to locate the person he knew had
&gt; betrayed his friends to their deaths. And of course there had been no
&gt; communication between him and Dumbledore else he would have made sure
&gt; he knew he was innocent... at least of the deaths of James and Lily.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; And surely there existed the possibility that someone was alive. If DD
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is not logical for DD to
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; send Hagrid.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Hagrid is naturally protected against magical attack... born with a
&gt; &gt;Shield spell, so to speak.
&gt;
&gt; And we don't know where Dumbledore was at the time of the attack or
&gt; what he was doing.
But we NEED to know. At least, I NEED to know. There has to be a very
good explanation of where and what DD was doing. And I think there is
one. JK wrote it a long time ago when she wrote the original backstory.
I'm just trying to figure it out which is part of the fun of reading
detective type stories.

Report this message

#77: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 19:11:01 by drusilla

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> escribió:
&gt; Richard Eney wrote:
&gt;&gt; IMO, Dd is not tougher than Hagrid. More magical, yes, but not tougher.
&gt;&gt; Even back then, when Dd was 16 years younger and uninjured, Dd was
&gt;&gt; a very old man physically. Dd is over 150, Hagrid is a mere 67 or so.
&gt;&gt; Dd's magical protections have to be cast; Hagrid's are in effect all
&gt;&gt; the time. (The wizards don't like the idea of Hagrid, but they should
&gt;&gt; be absolutely terrified of Maxime - she's fully trained as well as
&gt;&gt; having the innate magical protection.)
&gt; But that's all supposition with no basis in text or in SOD/consistency.
&gt; It's like an argument about who whether Spiderman or Batman would win.
&gt;
&gt; We know that Hagrid is formidable but limited magically. Could Hagrid
&gt; survive a direct confrontation with LV, DD, Snape, Sirius? Maybe. Who
&gt; cares?

Well, I think DD does (or did) care. Hagrid is indeed tougher than DD in
certain aspects: we know as a fact that a Stunning Charm can't knock him
down so easily as with the regular wizard (I know DD is not a regular
wizard, BTW). But we don't know how a Avada Kedabra can affect him,
specially because he is not a fully giant but half human. If Sirius,
Snape or LV had shot him with simple charms, he could have survived; but
I doubt LV had used a simple curse, rather than something that might
stun a Giant (AK? the Knock-Out-Giants curse? Who knows?).

&gt; The problem with sending Hagrid instead of DD is just not 'sending
&gt; Hagrid instead of DD'. IF DD can get to GH quickly and get back quickly
&gt; from GH then DD should go to GH RIGHT AWAY with Hagrid or without. Here
&gt; are the advantages of going to GH:
&gt; - DD can be sure that Harry is safe
&gt; - DD has more ways of getting to GH quickly than Hagrid. For one, DD
&gt; can apparate.
&gt; - If Hagrid is safe, the team of Hagrid and DD is even safer. One can
&gt; hold off danger, while the other takes Harry away from danger.
&gt; - DD can investigate GH and Harry for clues to what happened to LV and
&gt; Harry when the curse backfired.


&gt; But DD does not take these advantages despite the fact that the cost is
&gt; minimal timewise. If DD goes to GH then he needs to find or communicat
&gt; with Hagrid which you had to do anyway, apparate at GH with Hagrid or
&gt; apparate at GH and wait for Hagrid to come by his means, make sure
&gt; Harry is safe, give him to Hagrid with instruction to take him to
&gt; Privet Drive at such and such a time, give the once over to GH for
&gt; clues, and return to where he needs to be. ALL THAT can be done in
&gt; what, 5 or 10 minutes? There's still a whole DAY between that and
&gt; Privet Drive for DD to do everything else he needs to do.
&gt;

I think we should agree here that DD had something very important to do
that same night, at the moment he knew LV was gone.

Let's see:
- He was somehow aware of the situation of Harry's living relatives: he
was headmaster of James and Lily and, these could have told them whom to
go in case they're dead, besides Sirius. And, as knowing Sirius &quot;had
betrayed&quot;, he couldn't give him the baby so, he thought about Petunia
and he started to cast the protection spell on PD.
- But, he couldn't be at Privet Drive or he had seen McGonagall. Perhaps
he was there, but, he left at the moment she arrived.
- He wasn't informing Petunia, as she looked shocked when she saw Harry
by first time (unless she was aware but she wasn't expecting him to see
him that soon or in that way)
- DD was already aware of LV's ways to survive (or attempts) so, he went
immediately to look after him. *IF* he arrived first to GH and didn't
find LV's body, that was his main job: to check where it was, where it
went or who took it. So, he asked Hagrid to get Harry.
- DD was with Hagrid at the moment he heard the news: Hagrid heard the
Potters were dead and volunteered (I mean he started crying and left
Hogwarts running towards GH), and DD had only time to gave him some
important information and orders.

Don't forget that Hagrid is a old wizard who had managed to survive and
adapt very well even when is not allowed to magic. Also, he is a DD's
employee: he is ordered to make some simple jobs for him that probably
include to travel lot, so, he must have his own ways to do so. He has
his umbrella, doesn't he? Perhaps Hagrid has heard of Mary Poppins :)

Also, we don't know yet WHERE is located Godric's Hollow. Don't count
the Bristol clue because if Hagrid was flying over the country, we don't
know what way he took so he couldn't be seen; knowing HAgrid, he
probably got lost or learned to ride the bike in the way and got out the
route many times. But if this village was named after a Wizard, I
wouldn't be surprised the place is near Hogwarts or Hogsmeade.

Report this message

#78: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 20:48:47 by gjw

On 17 Jul 2006 16:22:46 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;gjw wrote:


&gt;&gt; And JKR has a tendency to leave dangling threads. (We still haven't
&gt;&gt; reconciled that whole changing-the-past issue in GoF, for instance.
&gt;&gt; Or the number of students at Hogwarts...)
&gt;Yes but she has written 2600+ pages...some minor errors are bound to
&gt;come up. In fact, nothing says the HP world must be consistent or
&gt;logical...it's a fantasy world. But the story of the curse and what
&gt;happened at GH is the crucial part of the backstory in this series of
&gt;books...and figuring it out is part of the game just like figuring out
&gt;the discontinuities in the other parts of the story.

It may or may not be crucial, but I suspect that Rowling has told us
most of what she wants us to know about it. If there are other
important things we need to know about that night at Godric's (e.g. if
Snape was there, if Harry's scar is a horcrux, etc.), she will no
doubt tell us. But I honestly doubt that we will ever learn why
Hagrid was there, and/or how he and Dumbledore communicated. I
suspect it's just one of those minor details that Rowling hasn't even
considered. (If someone asked her, she'd probably come up with
something, but don't hold your breath waiting for her to put it in the
last book without prompting.)


&gt;&gt; I suspect that we'll learn that Voldemort gave Lily a chance to escape to
&gt;&gt; placate Snape. And there's the remote possibility that Snape was there at the
&gt;&gt; time of the murders. But other than that, I don't think she'll tell us much
&gt;&gt; about the incident.
&gt;See, you too are suspecting things based on clues given...

More than a clue, actually. When asked whether Voldemort _really_
would have let Lily live, or whether he was just tormenting her,
Rowing said clearly that yes, he would have let her live. That almost
certainly means that Rowling has a storyline there that she plans to
tell. (_Why_ he let her live is mere speculation on my part.)


&gt;&gt; I can't remember off the top of my head whether there is any proof
&gt;&gt; that Dumbledore told Hagrid where to go to get baby Harry.

&gt;It would not make sense otherwise...dumb ol'Hagrid gets the baby first,
&gt;tells the wise ol'DD about it and the DD goes &quot;Oh you got him? Take him
&gt;to Privet Drive. I'll meet you in 24 hours. I have some important
&gt;things to attend to.&quot;

It makes perfect sense to me. Hagrid found the child, notified
Dumbledore, who set up a delivery time &amp; place where he planned to
leave Harry at the Dursleys.


&gt;&gt; If not, here is a simple scenario which might fill in most of the
&gt;&gt; blanks:
&gt;Except your scenario is not so simple...
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Once Lily &amp; James are dead, the secret is broken, and their former
&gt;&gt; hiding place becomes visible once more.
&gt;This is the first contradiction. The secret hides James and Lilly but
&gt;not Harry, the target.

The secret is the family's hiding place. It's designed to protect the
family from attack by Voldemort. Once Voldemort has found the family
and destroyed it, the house itself is destroyed, and Voldemort himself
is dead, there is no secret left to protect.

Having Dumbledore tell Hagrid doesn't work if the Secret Keeper spell
is still in effect.

Go to JKR's official site, go to the FAQ section, then on &quot;About the
Books&quot;, and then click on the FAQ Poll results (off to the left side).
Read what she has to say about how the Secret Keeper .

Here are here exact words:

&quot;...a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the
Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody
else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge
the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have
been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only
people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail
had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on
the information.&quot;


Rowling has indicates that while Wormtail could reveal the secret to
someone (e.g. Dumbledore), that person could not then reveal the
secret to someone else (e.g. Hagrid). In order for the spell to still
be in effect. Hagrid would have had to have been told the secret
directly by Wormtail. Otherwise, Hagrid would have been unable to even
see the remains of the family. And why would Wormtail tell Hagrid?
And if he had, Hagrid couldn't have revealed it to Dumbledore. Yet
Dumbledore knows about Godric's Hollow when he is on Privet Drive. In
fact, within hours, everyone in the magical world knew the story of
Godric's Hollow. If the Secret were still in effect, how could that
information have been passed from person to person? Obviously the
Secret was broken when the family's hiding place was found and
destroyed.


&gt;&gt; Hagrid happens to be in the neighborhood, spots the burning ruins of their
&gt;&gt; home, discovers the bodies of the Potters and rescues the surviving baby
&gt;&gt; Harry.
&gt;How convenient.

It doesn't really matter to me why Hagrid was in the neighborhood.
Only that he was there. It will most likely never be explained in the
books. But again, even if Dumbledore had known about the family's
hiding place, he could not have told Hagrid where to go, so long as
the Secret was in effect.


&gt;&gt; Using some magical communication device (e.g. a set of matching mirrors, the
&gt;&gt; old &quot;head in the fireplace&quot; routine, an owl), Hagrid contacts
&gt;&gt; Dumbledore and tells him what happened.

&gt;That could be except Hagrid can't do much magic.

He can't send an owl?


&gt;I say DD can somehow know what Fawkes saw.

We have no evidence that Fawkes was anywhere near Godric's Hollow, let
alone that he was there and then somehow spoke to Dumbledore about
what happened there.


&gt;You say Hagrid has some kind
&gt;of two way device. Neither has been seen before in the books. So they
&gt;are equivalent assumptions.

Sorry. They're not. Mine isn't dependent upon talking birds.


&gt;But your assumption is based on the prior
&gt;assumptions that 1) the secret was broken once James an Lilly were dead
&gt;and 2) Hagrid was near GH. Those make sense to you but not to me.

As I made clear above, the Secret had to have been broken.

The fact that Hagrid was near Godric's Hollow is probably just one of
those fortunate coincidences that happen so often in books... and
sometimes in real life. Or he may have had some business there - we
know little about the neighborhood, what kind of activity took place
there, or why Hagrid might have been in the area. Dumbledore could
not have told Hagrid to go there (e.g. to protect the family) before
the Secret spell was lifted.


&gt;&gt; Dumbledore instructs him to bring the baby to Privet Drive. Sirius shows up
&gt;&gt; with his flying motorbike and gives it to Hagrid, who uses it to fly to
&gt;&gt; Privet Drive.

&gt;And prior to that Hagrid was planning to get to Privet Drive how?

Again, we don't know the location of Godric's Hollow, or what means of
transportation are available between there and Privet Drive. All
Rowling wants us to know is that Dumbledore told Hagrid to bring the
baby to Privet Drive, and that Dumbledore didn't know about the flying
motorcycle - which means that there were obviously alternate means of
transportation available which Dumbledore assumed Hagrid would use.

Report this message

#79: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 20:57:51 by gjw

On 17 Jul 2006 23:10:50 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:


&gt;True Hagrid is tough but to send Hagrid, DD still has to find him and
&gt;instruct him. And if Hagrid apparates, floos or portkeys to GH then DD
&gt;can get there just as fast. If DD goes with Hagrid then Hagrid can take
&gt;Harry while DD investigates the house. Regardless of how tough you
&gt;suppose Hagrid to be, Dd is tougher still. It is still safer and saner
&gt;for DD to go to GH IF he can get there quickly.

Once again, the easiest answer is that Dumbledore didn't send Hagrid
at all. Hagrid was in Godric's Hollow for one reason or another and
discovered the smoking remains of the house and rescued Harry. He
then contacted Dumbledore, who told him to bring the child to Privet
Drive.

Report this message

#80: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 21:15:09 by ag30476

drusilla wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> escribi=F3:
&gt; &gt; We know that Hagrid is formidable but limited magically. Could Hagrid
&gt; &gt; survive a direct confrontation with LV, DD, Snape, Sirius? Maybe. Who
&gt; &gt; cares?
&gt;
&gt; Well, I think DD does (or did) care.
Agreed DD does care about DD's toughness. My &quot;who cares&quot; was a
rhetorical plea to not get into an argument about how the mechanics of
magic work, eg an AK cuse can't kill a giant or half-giant. This may or
may not be the case. I doubt JK took the time to make strict rules for
the magical world she created. (And did she uses GURPS or D20?) In
terms of SOD, exceptions in this magical world are perfectly fine. But
holes in the backstory are not.

&gt; Hagrid is indeed tougher than DD in
&gt; certain aspects: we know as a fact that a Stunning Charm can't knock him
&gt; down so easily as with the regular wizard (I know DD is not a regular
&gt; wizard, BTW).
Agreed. Hagrid is tough and capable.

&gt; But we don't know how a Avada Kedabra can affect him,
&gt; specially because he is not a fully giant but half human. If Sirius,
&gt; Snape or LV had shot him with simple charms, he could have survived; but
&gt; I doubt LV had used a simple curse, rather than something that might
&gt; stun a Giant (AK? the Knock-Out-Giants curse? Who knows?).
Exactly. Who knows? We don't know how the wizards keep giants,
vampires, werewolves or even house-elves at bay. All are interesting
questions about the HP world. But the books are only written to give
the HP world as background. As such there might be some inconsistencies
there. But it does not matter to SOD. However certain things are
crucial: what Lilly did to protect Harry, how the curse backfired, what
the scar is. And to this list I would add: what happened at GH and
where was DD when Hagrid rescued Harry.

&gt; I think we should agree here that DD had something very important to do
&gt; that same night, at the moment he knew LV was gone.
Until not long ago I would have agreed that DD had to do something very
important or was doing something very important when the Potters were
attacked and Harry was rescued. But I just don't buy it anymore. What
could be more important than protecting Harry in this his hour of
greatest need, until that point? Within the context of the 6 books,
Harry is IT. Harry is the MOST IMPORTANCE THING.

The only way I could agree that DD was doing something as important or
more important than protecting Harry is if what DD was doing was as
important or more important than protecting Harry. That is something
also that invloved life and death. For ex, DD might have been defending
Neville whom he thought the primary target, relying on the FC to
protect Harry. But this does not seem to have any evidence at all for
it.

I just don't buy that checking Snape's Dark Mark, or informing the OotP
or the Ministry, or looking Sirius, or finding the Horcruxes (which
takes years), or rounding up the DE's, or researching the blood charm
is something that can't wait 5 or 10 minutes. None of those things
involve the same sense of urgency as rescuing Harry. I can buy that all
those actions are important and DD can't spare the whole day when he
can send Hagrid (who can't do any of those things) to make sure Harry
is safe. And IF the rescue from GH to Privet Drive is, somehow, going
to take 24 hours and DD can't reduce this time then Hagrid is as good a
choice as DD. In fact, Hagrid is a better choice because DD can be off
doing all he needs to do that day (checking Snape's Dark Mark, or
informing the OotP...) And IF DD can be reasonably sure that noone else
(other Sirius) can find Harry at GH, it makes even more sense.

&gt; Let's see:
&gt; - He was somehow aware of the situation of Harry's living relatives: he
&gt; was headmaster of James and Lily and, these could have told them whom to
&gt; go in case they're dead, besides Sirius. And, as knowing Sirius &quot;had
&gt; betrayed&quot;, he couldn't give him the baby so, he thought about Petunia
&gt; and he started to cast the protection spell on PD.
Yes but the important thing is to make Harry safe first then make the
final destination safe. Go with Hagrid to GH. Make sure Harry is safe.
Then cast the spell on PD. After all, wasn't Hagrid late? That is, DD
was the one with time to spare at the end.

&gt; - But, he couldn't be at Privet Drive or he had seen McGonagall. Perhaps
&gt; he was there, but, he left at the moment she arrived.
Yes but that is an unnecessaty complication. Besides, the narrator
tells us that DD had never been to PD until he got there after McG. The
exercise here is to reconstruct the backstory storyline from the
fragmented POVs. In this reconstruction we should only make the minimal
assumptions. For ex, Hagrid goes to GH to rescue Harry is OK but Hagrid
goes to rescue Harry, stops for a bathroom break, the continues on to
GH is not OK as part of the reconstruction.

&gt; - He wasn't informing Petunia, as she looked shocked when she saw Harry
&gt; by first time (unless she was aware but she wasn't expecting him to see
&gt; him that soon or in that way)
True...my main problem with the DD is out making Harry's final
destination safe is that DD's plan is unncesarily complicated: send
Hagrid to get Harry, Hagrid does some unspecified stuff with Harry in
24 hours, DD does some unspecified stuff for 24 hours, then you drop
off the baby in a basket at the door near midnight, then you send a
secret 2nd letter to Petunia.

It's simpler for DD to go with Hagrid to GH, pick up Harry, go with
Hagrid and Harry to PD, drop Harry off, tell Hagrid to watch over while
he goes to make the blood charm, then tell the Ministry the
fait-a-compli. We're done with that night in what 30 minutes? Instead
now we have a missing day.

The implication for me here is that DD could not shortcut the missing
day.

&gt; - DD was already aware of LV's ways to survive (or attempts) so, he went
&gt; immediately to look after him. *IF* he arrived first to GH and didn't
&gt; find LV's body, that was his main job: to check where it was, where it
&gt; went or who took it. So, he asked Hagrid to get Harry.
In this scenario then it makes sense to ask Hagrid to go with him or to
wait for Hagrid until he gets there. Let us assume that DD goes to GH,
finds the bodies of James and Lilly, does not find the wands of
Pettigrew or LV (Pettigrew takes LV's wand and if DD had found
Pettigrews wand he would have suspected Pettigrew of something), and
finds Harry. Then he calls Hagrid to come pick up Harry. But then what
of Sirius? I'm not saying DD is perfect. But DD is not likely to forget
that Sirius is the SK. And since he does not know what happened to
Sirius, he does not know if Sirius is on the way. In fact Sirius is on
the way and it is only by chance that Hagrid beats him.If Sirius takes
Harry then Harry is safe but DD's plan is in danger. No. IF DD goes to
GH THEN he must pick up Harry.

&gt; - DD was with Hagrid at the moment he heard the news: Hagrid heard the
&gt; Potters were dead and volunteered (I mean he started crying and left
&gt; Hogwarts running towards GH), and DD had only time to gave him some
&gt; important information and orders.
And DD can't control Hagrid or follow him? Just because Hagrid acts
impulsively does not mean that DD has to also. DD still has the same
considerations: help save Harry for 5-10 minutes or do something else
MORE IMPORTANT.

&gt; Don't forget that Hagrid is a old wizard who had managed to survive and
&gt; adapt very well even when is not allowed to magic. Also, he is a DD's
&gt; employee: he is ordered to make some simple jobs for him that probably
&gt; include to travel lot, so, he must have his own ways to do so. He has
&gt; his umbrella, doesn't he? Perhaps Hagrid has heard of Mary Poppins :)
I just hope Hagrid doesn't start singing
&quot;Supercallifragiliexpialadcious&quot; in book 7.
I don't doubt that Hagrid is capable. He has some significant
weaknesses though (for ex being a blabbermouth - lets McG get to PD -
and being trusting - lets Sirius get away). More importantly is, it's
really not about Hagrid. It's about DD. The real question is not why
Hagrid goes but why DD does not go (with or without Hagrid) IF DD can
make it there and back QUICKLY?

&gt; Also, we don't know yet WHERE is located Godric's Hollow. Don't count
&gt; the Bristol clue because if Hagrid was flying over the country,
I'm not. I don't know where GH is. But if, as seems logical to me, the
travel time from Hogwarts to GH and from GH to PD is what takes up most
of the missing day, the GH is far from both Hogwarts and PD.

&gt; we don't
&gt; know what way he took so he couldn't be seen; knowing HAgrid, he
&gt; probably got lost or learned to ride the bike in the way and got out the
&gt; route many times. But if this village was named after a Wizard, I
&gt; wouldn't be surprised the place is near Hogwarts or Hogsmeade.
It could be but see above. My assumption is that GH is far from
Hogwarts and PD.

Report this message

#81: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 21:54:03 by ag30476

gjw wrote:
&gt; On 17 Jul 2006 23:10:50 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt;True Hagrid is tough but to send Hagrid, DD still has to find him and
&gt; &gt;instruct him. And if Hagrid apparates, floos or portkeys to GH then DD
&gt; &gt;can get there just as fast. If DD goes with Hagrid then Hagrid can take
&gt; &gt;Harry while DD investigates the house. Regardless of how tough you
&gt; &gt;suppose Hagrid to be, Dd is tougher still. It is still safer and saner
&gt; &gt;for DD to go to GH IF he can get there quickly.
&gt;
&gt; Once again, the easiest answer is that Dumbledore didn't send Hagrid
&gt; at all. Hagrid was in Godric's Hollow for one reason or another and
&gt; discovered the smoking remains of the house and rescued Harry. He
&gt; then contacted Dumbledore, who told him to bring the child to Privet
&gt; Drive.
The backstory is full of suspense. LV is known to be plotting the muder
of one or another child. The Potters have used the FC charm which is
used to hide the OotP HQ. James and Sirius have not even told DD that
Pettigrew is the SK. Hagrid can't just be near GH for &quot;some reason or
another&quot;. He can only be there because he is protecting Harry. If so,
why is he not inside the hiding place? Hagrid is perhaps the best
bodyguard but not the best lookout (he does not suspect Sirius, the
&quot;known&quot; SK, of wrongdoing for ex.)

Regardless, this reconstruction still has some some assumptions (some
of which are hidden):

- *Hagrid is near GH* - assumption - no explicitly stated in the text.

- *Hagrid does not see LV enter the hiding place or is too late or too
slow to do anything about* - assumption - not explicitly stated in the
text. Curiously Hagrid is angry at himself at not having stopped Sirius
when he had the chance. Yet he does not EVER seem effected with the
remorse that he was at GH, near the Potter's, when the attack took
place and could not do anything to stop it. Completely out of
characater.

- Hagrid rescues Harry and is instructed by DD to take Harry to PD.
*Hagrid then must have some way to get Harry to PD before Sirius
arrives* - assumption - not explicitly stated in the text. What is it?
Did he have it before he got to GH? Did DD send it?

- In this scenario, Hagrid is not in the hiding place. So he does not
see Lilly makes the sacrifice. Yet DD knows about this. How? *DD must
have some means of reconstructing what went on at GH before we see him
at PD* - assumption - not explicitly stated in the text.

For me, this is not a satisfactory explanation - especially the part
where emo and blabbermouthy Hagrid never talks about the strange thing
that made him go over to the hiding place or the fact that he was in GH
but could not do anything to stop LV.

Report this message

#82: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 22:13:45 by Sky Rider

On 18 Jul 2006 09:00:02 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> looked at Ron with an
evil Grint in his eye and said :

&gt;
&gt;Sky Rider wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152866891.513063.162300&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152866891.513063.162300&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt;&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; I think on close (or perhaps over-)
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; analysis, they don't add up. Hagris is instructed to take Harry to
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Privet Drive and we learn that it's because it is (thanks to the blood
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; charm) the safest place for Harry. That means, DD, wants Harry safe,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; naturally with all the DE's still around. And at that time, DE's were
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; hidden everywhere. It seems the most logical instruction for DD to give
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Hagrid is &quot;Get the baby and take it straight to Privet Drive.&quot;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The death eaters would have still been so stunned by the loss of their
&gt;&gt; leader than they would need time to regroup. There is no indication
&gt;&gt; Voldie ever gave them much freedom of action. Also being formed into
&gt;&gt; small cells they'd have no way of communicating properly with one
&gt;&gt; another after his disappearance so may well have just hidden until
&gt;&gt; they decided what individual action to take.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; And of course, as Snape said, there was the possibility that Harry was
&gt;&gt; in fact a great dark wizard himself... so they'd not have tried to
&gt;&gt; kill him until they were *sure* they were doing the right thing.
&gt;Maybe. Maybe not. My question is do you think it likely that DD would
&gt;take such deductions as he's assurance that it is as safe to send
&gt;Hagrid by himself to pck up Harry. Look, Hagrid beats Sirius by only a
&gt;few moments.

Where does it say that?? All the book tells us is that Hagrid borrowed
the bike from Sirius... not that they met at GH!! They could have met
at a rave party for all we know!!!

&gt; If Sirius picks up Harry first than what happens? Suddenly
&gt;DD has a big problem to deal with. Harry is alive and apparently taken
&gt;by the betrayer SK. What does DD do then. It just does not make sense
&gt;to me, in terms of suspension of disbelief, that DD would not go to GH
&gt;himself IF he could go there quickly. That is, this &quot;MORE IMPORTANT
&gt;THINGS TO DO&quot; that DD was doing and prevented him from going to GH has
&gt;got to be more important that saving Harry...and after 6 books and 2600
&gt;pagers we know that saving Harry is the most important thing period

Maybe Voldies disappearance was important to Dumbledore... maybe he
was doing something critical at the time... lots of possible reasons
we can't begin to imagine.

It's the most important thing now to save Harry... but maybe there
were more pressing matters at hand when GH was attacked?

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;&gt; And we don't know where Dumbledore was at the time of the attack or
&gt;&gt; what he was doing.

&gt;But we NEED to know. At least, I NEED to know. There has to be a very
&gt;good explanation of where and what DD was doing. And I think there is
&gt;one. JK wrote it a long time ago when she wrote the original backstory.
&gt;I'm just trying to figure it out which is part of the fun of reading
&gt;detective type stories.

Maybe in book 7 all will be revealed... but I wouldn't count on it :)
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

Report this message

#83: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 22:35:43 by ag30476

gjw wrote:
&gt; It may or may not be crucial, but I suspect that Rowling has told us
&gt; most of what she wants us to know about it. If there are other
&gt; important things we need to know about that night at Godric's (e.g. if
&gt; Snape was there, if Harry's scar is a horcrux, etc.), she will no
&gt; doubt tell us. But I honestly doubt that we will ever learn why
&gt; Hagrid was there, and/or how he and Dumbledore communicated. I
&gt; suspect it's just one of those minor details that Rowling hasn't even
&gt; considered.
Well we can agree to disagree. I think this are important questions
which will be answered. And however the story of GH works out (I'm not
saying mine is THE correct version), we will find out the details of DD
and Hagrid's actions that night.

&gt; &gt;See, you too are suspecting things based on clues given...
&gt;
&gt; More than a clue, actually. When asked whether Voldemort _really_
&gt; would have let Lily live, or whether he was just tormenting her,
&gt; Rowing said clearly that yes, he would have let her live. That almost
&gt; certainly means that Rowling has a storyline there that she plans to
&gt; tell. (_Why_ he let her live is mere speculation on my part.)
Exactly. That is what I meant. It is in the text the LV made an offer
to let Lilly live. I was questioning your reason as to why he offered
to let her leave, ie Snape. Certainly the offer to Lilly is an
important clue to something. And many, like you, have pieced together
that clue with the clues regarding the Lilly and Snape backstory. The
idea that Snape is there is certainly not far-fetched. And I favored it
for some time. Except that if Snape was there at GH, I don't see why
after witnessing what happens, he does not pickup Harry and go to DD.
Or if instead, he simply communicates with DD, why DD does not come
pick up Harry (with or without Hagrid).

&gt; &gt;It would not make sense otherwise...dumb ol'Hagrid gets the baby first,
&gt; &gt;tells the wise ol'DD about it and the DD goes &quot;Oh you got him? Take him
&gt; &gt;to Privet Drive. I'll meet you in 24 hours. I have some important
&gt; &gt;things to attend to.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; It makes perfect sense to me. Hagrid found the child, notified
&gt; Dumbledore, who set up a delivery time &amp; place where he planned to
&gt; leave Harry at the Dursleys.
That leaves out many things, but see my other response.

&gt; &gt;This is the first contradiction. The secret hides James and Lilly but
&gt; &gt;not Harry, the target.
&gt;
&gt; The secret is the family's hiding place. It's designed to protect the
&gt; family from attack by Voldemort. Once Voldemort has found the family
&gt; and destroyed it, the house itself is destroyed, and Voldemort himself
&gt; is dead, there is no secret left to protect.
Except where Harry is hiding. You have to come up with a strangely
worded secret which does not protect Harry's hiding place in case his
parents and or LV is destroyed. Further, this in itself is not a simple
assumption. The simplest assumption is that the secret at GH is the
same as the secret at 12 Grimmauld, that is it protects the location
and is not dependent on clauses such as &quot;Harry's parents are alive&quot; and
&quot;LV is not dead&quot;.

&gt; Having Dumbledore tell Hagrid doesn't work if the Secret Keeper spell
&gt; is still in effect.
I only need 1 assumption if the FC is still in effect AND both DD and
Hagrid are not in on the secret: that there is an exceptional magical
means to bypass the secret known only to DD. We have seen this MO
before: elves at Hogwarts, Fawkes at the Ministry, Fawkes surviving an
AK, Harry surviving an AK.

&gt; Go to JKR's official site, go to the FAQ section, then on &quot;About the
&gt; Books&quot;, and then click on the FAQ Poll results (off to the left side).
&gt; Read what she has to say about how the Secret Keeper .
&gt;
&gt; Here are here exact words:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;...a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the
&gt; Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
&gt; our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody
&gt; else - not even the subjects of the secret themselves - can divulge
&gt; the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
&gt; Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have
&gt; been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only
&gt; people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail
&gt; had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on
&gt; the information.&quot;
Yeah I know that too. We all know that quote. It does not invalidate
what I say. In fact, if anything it invalidates that the secret could
be broken if the condition for the secret were no longer true.

&gt; Rowling has indicates that while Wormtail could reveal the secret to
&gt; someone (e.g. Dumbledore), that person could not then reveal the
&gt; secret to someone else (e.g. Hagrid). In order for the spell to still
&gt; be in effect. Hagrid would have had to have been told the secret
&gt; directly by Wormtail. Otherwise, Hagrid would have been unable to even
&gt; see the remains of the family. And why would Wormtail tell Hagrid?
&gt; And if he had, Hagrid couldn't have revealed it to Dumbledore. Yet
&gt; Dumbledore knows about Godric's Hollow when he is on Privet Drive. In
&gt; fact, within hours, everyone in the magical world knew the story of
&gt; Godric's Hollow. If the Secret were still in effect, how could that
&gt; information have been passed from person to person? Obviously the
&gt; Secret was broken when the family's hiding place was found and
&gt; destroyed.
That is an assumption again, that people can't talk about the Potter's
hiding in GH. The DE's talk about the OotP HQ but they can't find it.
Certainly it would be OK to talk about the &quot;Potter's hiding place&quot; when
the FC was still in place no? Then what's wrong if you say the
&quot;Potter's hiding place at GH&quot;? It only means you know something a
little more specific. But you can't still find it. The easiest
assumption is the the secret works like 12 Grimmauld. That is that the
FC protects the location not the fact of what the location is or who
goes there.

So say a DE follows a member of the OotP to 12 Grimmauld. The OotP
member enters. The DE can't enter. He can't see the house. What does he
see? Who knows? But in your scenario you supposed that the FC at 12
Grimmauld must memory wipe the DE so he doesn't even know which town he
was in when he was following the member of the OotP. The fact that
people talk about the Potter's hiding place at GH is not evidence that
the FC is broken just like the fact that DE's can talk about &quot;the OotP
HQ&quot; wihtout that FC being broken. But if they try to get there, then
they can't find it. If the FC is still in effect, then DD knows that
Harry is alone but relatively safe.


&gt; &gt;&gt; Hagrid happens to be in the neighborhood, spots the burning ruins of their
&gt; &gt;&gt; home, discovers the bodies of the Potters and rescues the surviving baby
&gt; &gt;&gt; Harry.
&gt; &gt;How convenient.
&gt;
&gt; It doesn't really matter to me why Hagrid was in the neighborhood.
&gt; Only that he was there. It will most likely never be explained in the
&gt; books. But again, even if Dumbledore had known about the family's
&gt; hiding place, he could not have told Hagrid where to go, so long as
&gt; the Secret was in effect.
See, this are YOUR assumptions. 1) Hagrid is near GH coincidentally
even though he cannot know that the Potters are there because noone can
even say &quot;the Potter's are hiding at GH&quot; 2) The backfire cursed breaks
the FC or the FC breaks when certain conditions are met (Harry's
parents die and LV is nearly destroyed). 3) Hagrid sees something when
the curse backfires, informs DD of what he finds. 4) DD then
communicates back to Hagrid to take the baby to PD BEFORE DD goes to GH
himself.

Compare with my assumptions. 1) The FC works like 12 Grimmauld but
(originally) only James, Lilly, Sirius and Pettigrew are in on the
secret (we then know that Pettigrew tells LV). 2) DD has a spy, a
magical exception (Fawkes), in GH That bypasses the FC. 3) DD has a
means, a magical exception (Fawkes or a Thestral) that bypasses the FC.
He shares this means with Hagrid and that's how Hagrid gets to GH.

Your assumptions need a convieniently placed Hagrid to make the
reconstruction work. Plus they need a magical exception to the normally
absolutely unbreakable FC. My assumptions only require that DD has
magical exceptions to bypass the FC.

&gt; &gt;&gt; Using some magical communication device (e.g. a set of matching mirrors,
&gt; &gt;&gt; the old &quot;head in the fireplace&quot; routine, an owl), Hagrid contacts
&gt; &gt;&gt; Dumbledore and tells him what happened.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;That could be except Hagrid can't do much magic.
&gt;
&gt; He can't send an owl?
That he can do but you mentioned the &quot;head in fireplace routine&quot; not
me.

&gt; &gt;I say DD can somehow know what Fawkes saw.
&gt;
&gt; We have no evidence that Fawkes was anywhere near Godric's Hollow, let
&gt; alone that he was there and then somehow spoke to Dumbledore about
&gt; what happened there.
No we do not have evidence that Hagrid, Fawkes or AYNYONE was near GH
when the cursed backfired. The text only tells us the James, Lilly,
Harry, Pettigrew and LV were there. The rest is deduction. And all
assumptions that SOMEONE is near GH start from the fact the DD knows
too much by the time of Privet Drive.

&gt; &gt;You say Hagrid has some kind
&gt; &gt;of two way device. Neither has been seen before in the books. So they
&gt; &gt;are equivalent assumptions.
&gt;
&gt; Sorry. They're not. Mine isn't dependent upon talking birds.
Correction, MAGICAL LEGENDARY EXTREMELY POWERFUL talking bird.

&gt; &gt;But your assumption is based on the prior
&gt; &gt;assumptions that 1) the secret was broken once James an Lilly were dead
&gt; &gt;and 2) Hagrid was near GH. Those make sense to you but not to me.
&gt;
&gt; As I made clear above, the Secret had to have been broken.
It is not clear at all not even after JK's quote. In fact, after JK's
quote it's even more curious how the FC could be ever broken. In fact,
we have a second example of an FC (12 Grimmauld) and we know that
people can talk about the secret protected by that FC without that FC
being broken. So the fact that people talk about what is protected by
the FC at GH is not evidence that the FC at GH is broken.

&gt; The fact that Hagrid was near Godric's Hollow is probably just one of
&gt; those fortunate coincidences that happen so often in books... and
&gt; sometimes in real life. Or he may have had some business there - we
&gt; know little about the neighborhood, what kind of activity took place
&gt; there, or why Hagrid might have been in the area. Dumbledore could
&gt; not have told Hagrid to go there (e.g. to protect the family) before
&gt; the Secret spell was lifted.
It could be one of a Series of Fortunate Coincidences. We will have to
wait and see for book 7.

&gt; &gt;And prior to that Hagrid was planning to get to Privet Drive how?
&gt;
&gt; Again, we don't know the location of Godric's Hollow, or what means of
&gt; transportation are available between there and Privet Drive. All
&gt; Rowling wants us to know is that Dumbledore told Hagrid to bring the
&gt; baby to Privet Drive, and that Dumbledore didn't know about the flying
&gt; motorcycle - which means that there were obviously alternate means of
&gt; transportation available which Dumbledore assumed Hagrid would use.
DD is shown as someone who is prepared for all contigencies. He would
not have told Hagrid to go to PD without thinking whether Hagrid could
in fact get to PD with Harry.

Report this message

#84: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-18 23:57:39 by ag30476

Sky Rider wrote:
&gt; &gt;Maybe. Maybe not. My question is do you think it likely that DD would
&gt; &gt;take such deductions as he's assurance that it is as safe to send
&gt; &gt;Hagrid by himself to pck up Harry. Look, Hagrid beats Sirius by only a
&gt; &gt;few moments.
&gt;
&gt; Where does it say that?? All the book tells us is that Hagrid borrowed
&gt; the bike from Sirius... not that they met at GH!! They could have met
&gt; at a rave party for all we know!!!
Sirius says he was heading back to check on the Potters - but he was
going to stop at a rave party first - just where Hagrid was taking
Harry - that's one very conveniently placed rave party. The easiest
assumption is that they met at GH.

&gt; Maybe Voldies disappearance was important to Dumbledore... maybe he
&gt; was doing something critical at the time... lots of possible reasons
&gt; we can't begin to imagine.
I'm sure all those thing were important to DD. But that can't wait for
5 minutes while Harry is made safe. And if LV disappears at GH, you
don't want to go to GH to figure out what happened there?

&gt; It's the most important thing now to save Harry... but maybe there
&gt; were more pressing matters at hand when GH was attacked?
Yes but what are those more important matters? I mean it's really comes
down to a question of taste. At this point, I'm not buing that there is
anything more important than saving Harry. Other people, like you
disagree, and say that they can imagine DD rushing off to do something
important, relegating the task of saving Harry to Hagrid.

I can't convince anyone of that. If you can imagine DD needing to
something so pressing that he can't spare 5 to 10 minutes to make sure
that 1 year old Harry is safe, then you don't have a problem with SOD.
But I do.

&gt; &gt;But we NEED to know. At least, I NEED to know. There has to be a very
&gt; &gt;good explanation of where and what DD was doing. And I think there is
&gt; &gt;one. JK wrote it a long time ago when she wrote the original backstory.
&gt; &gt;I'm just trying to figure it out which is part of the fun of reading
&gt; &gt;detective type stories.
&gt;
&gt; Maybe in book 7 all will be revealed... but I wouldn't count on it :)
Well JK has revealed herself to be a good writer. I'm not saying she's
written a literary masterpiece but so far, the story has held together
very well over 6 books and 2600 pages.

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#85: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 00:08:39 by ag30476

Let me compare and contrast my proposed reconstruction with the
&quot;standard&quot; ones, not like there is a &quot;standard&quot; one but anyway:

Regarding the FC...

STANDARD: The FC is broken OR DD and Hagrid are in on the secret of the
FC.
*Stated Explicitly In The Text: No
*Evidence For: Hagrid goes to GH to pick up Harry.
*Evidence Against: DD does not go to GH to pick up Harry.
*Assumption That Has To Be Made To Accept: DD has something more
important to do than pick up Harry. Or DD went to GH but did not pick
up Harry and left before Hagrid arrived because he has something more
important to do.

PROPOSED: The FC is NOT broken (it's still in effect) AND DD and Hagrid
are NOT in on the secret.
*Stated Explicitly In The Text: No
*Evidence For: DD does not go to GH to pick up Harry.
*Evidence Against: Hagrid goes to GH to pick up Harry.
*Assumptions That Have To Be Made To Accept: DD has a magical means to
bypass the secret (Fawkes or a Thestral). This means is slow and DD
can't spare the long time it would take because he has many things to
do. He sends Hagrid by this means instead.

Regarding who picks up Harry...

STANDARD: Hagrid picks up Harry right away.
*Stated Explicitly In The Text: No
*Evidence For: It's natural to assume that that someone would get to
Harry quickly. But there is little evidence in the text for it.
*Evidence Against: Hagrid gets to GH after muggles are swarming about
and just before Sirius arrives. It then takes 24 hours to get from GH
to PD.
*Assumptions That Have To Be Made To Accept: GH is close to Hogwarts or
Hagrid was close to GH or Hagrid can Floo or Portkey to GH. Hagrid
takes Harry to a 3rd unmentioned location or the trip from GH to PD
takes 24 hours.

PROPOSED: Hagrid does not pick up Harry right away.
*Stated Explicitly In The Text: No
*Evidence For: No strong evidence at all.
*Evidence Against: Tha natural assumption is that someone would get to
Harry quickly.
*Assumptions That Has To Be Made To Accept: DD has a magical means to
bypass the secret (Fawkes or a Thestral). This means is relatively slow
and Hagrid can't get to GH quickly. Harry is picked up in the early
morning hours. Then it takes another long trip from GH to PD (but much
less than 24 hours).

Regarding how DD knows what he knows...

STANDARD-NO-SPY: DD either goes to GH (but does not pick up Harry) or
DD has some magical means to know what happened at GH.
*Stated Explicitly In The Text: DD knows a lot of things so he must
have some way to know. But no explicit mention is made in the text of
how he knows.
*Evidence For: See above.
*Evidence Against: If DD goes to GH then he should pick up Harry. But
he does not. If DD has some magical means to know then it is not one of
DD's many revealed powers in books 1-6.
*Assumptions That Have To Be Made To Accept: DD went to GH but did not
pick up Harry for some unknown reason. DD has a heretofore unknown
means of finding out what happened at GH.

STANDARD-SPY: DD has a spy, a witness at GH that tells him what went
on. This spy is either a wizard (usually Snape or Lupin) or a magical
creature (like a house-elf).
*Stated Explicitly In The Text: No.
*Evidence For: LV offers to spare Lilly. This is seen as gesture to
placate Snape who is assumed to be in love with Lilly. Lupin has a
&quot;strange&quot; reaction when Harry says that he heard his father's voice.
This is seen as evidence that Lupin knows it could not have been James
that Harry heard. A magical creature can get around wizard defenses.
House-elves can apparate in Hogwarts grounds. A portrait is used to
communicate with 12 Grimmauld.
*Evidence Against: If Snape or Lupin are at GH and go to see DD after
LV's curse backfires, why don't they bring Harry? If a house-elf or
protrait is the spy, then it is a character that will be introduced in
book 7.
*Assumptions That Have To Be Made To Accept: Snape or Lupin were at GH,
then went to DD but did not pick up Harry for some undisclosed reason.
Or DD has a house-elf or portrait spy at GH.

PROPOSED-SPY-FAWKES: DD has a spy, a witness at GH that tells him what
went on. This spy is the magical creature Fawkes.
*Stated Explicitly In The Text: No.
*Evidence For: A magical creature can get around wizard defenses.
Fawkes can apparate at the Ministry. Fawkes can survive an AK. Fawkes
is trusted by DD.
*Evidence Against: It is not known that Fawkes can communicate with DD.
*Assumptions That Have To Be Made To Accept: DD has Fawkes as a spy at
GH. DD can somehow know what Fawkes saw at GH.

As we can see, each reconstruction involves assumptions because things
are not explicitly stated in the text. The question is which
reconstruction is the most likely given the scant evidence. In the end,
it comes down it seems to matter of taste on how we want the problems
in the storyline resolved.

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#86: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 01:59:04 by Sky Rider

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:57:51 GMT, gjw &lt;<a href="mailto:gjw&#64;example.net" target="_blank">gjw&#64;example.net</a>&gt; looked at Ron
with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;On 17 Jul 2006 23:10:50 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;Once again, the easiest answer is that Dumbledore didn't send Hagrid
&gt;at all. Hagrid was in Godric's Hollow for one reason or another and
&gt;discovered the smoking remains of the house and rescued Harry. He
&gt;then contacted Dumbledore, who told him to bring the child to Privet
&gt;Drive.

I don't think Hagrid would have been in Godric's Hollow accidentally.

On the current level of information I'd have said the place was
somewhat obscurely located in mid-Wales or similar. We know it can't
be a 'wizarding village' because Hogsmeade is the only one so there is
currently no reason to assume Hagrid (because he stands out so much)
would have cause to be in a muggle village unless directed there by
Dumbledore.

And to make it even simpler it may be that Dumbledore wasn't sure
Voldemort had vanished and *if* Harry *had* been killed then his duty
was to protect Neville who would then clearly have been 'the chosen
one'.

Because he didn't *know* for certain Voldemort was gone and Harry was
still alive, he thought it best to send Hagrid to check rather than go
himself while he stayed on to guard Neville!!

Makes sense to me anyway :)
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

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#87: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 02:09:43 by ag30476

Sky Rider wrote:
&gt; On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:57:51 GMT, gjw &lt;<a href="mailto:gjw&#64;example.net" target="_blank">gjw&#64;example.net</a>&gt; looked at Ron
&gt; with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt; And to make it even simpler it may be that Dumbledore wasn't sure
&gt; Voldemort had vanished and *if* Harry *had* been killed then his duty
&gt; was to protect Neville who would then clearly have been 'the chosen
&gt; one'.
&gt;
&gt; Because he didn't *know* for certain Voldemort was gone and Harry was
&gt; still alive, he thought it best to send Hagrid to check rather than go
&gt; himself while he stayed on to guard Neville!!
&gt;
&gt; Makes sense to me anyway :)
That is a very good possibility for the &quot;more (or equally) important&quot;
thing that DD had to do: that DD is off guarding Neville while Hagrid
rescues Harry.

I mentioned it earlier in this thread but it's been thought of way
before.

But like I said, it jusn't doesn't feel right to me in that there isn't
enough development of this idea in the books. The books don't seem to
emphasize the character's guilt about choosing to protect the wrong
child but rather the misplaced trust that the character's had: James
and Sirius trusted Pettigrew not Lupin, DD trusts Snape but Harry
doesn't trust Snape, etc.

Report this message

#88: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 02:26:21 by Sky Rider

On 18 Jul 2006 12:54:03 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> looked at Ron with an
evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; On 17 Jul 2006 23:10:50 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;For me, this is not a satisfactory explanation - especially the part
&gt;where emo and blabbermouthy Hagrid never talks about the strange thing
&gt;that made him go over to the hiding place or the fact that he was in GH
&gt;but could not do anything to stop LV.

For me this last is the only reason I have for accepting Snape's
remorse as real.

I figured the only way Dumbledore could have known about all this is
from a witness. Since we know he'd not have spoken to Wormtail...
there are few other possibilities... and as one of Voldemorts closest
DE's, *and* as the person who passed on as much of the prophecy as was
known... Snape is the only logical choice. So Snape was there, saw the
whole thing and informed Dumbledore.

Dumbledore didn't know if Harry was alive or dead sent Hagrid to check
while he sped off to protect Neville. Snape returned to Hogwarts and
remained there until he killed Dumbledore.

Trouble is that not only doesn't this explain much... it adds even
more complications... for example... had he been there he surely must
have known Harry was still alive... so why didn't he take him
himself.. esp. if there was a possibility Harry might be Voldies
'replacement' as the great dark lord??

Also... as with the rest of this thread... Dumbledore could have
apparated to Godric's Hollow, obliviated the memories of any muggles
he found there and sped back in seconds... why didn't he?

Clearly we are still missing vital parts of the story.
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
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#89: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 03:59:32 by gjw

On 18 Jul 2006 13:35:43 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; It may or may not be crucial, but I suspect that Rowling has told us
&gt;&gt; most of what she wants us to know about it. If there are other
&gt;&gt; important things we need to know about that night at Godric's (e.g. if
&gt;&gt; Snape was there, if Harry's scar is a horcrux, etc.), she will no
&gt;&gt; doubt tell us. But I honestly doubt that we will ever learn why
&gt;&gt; Hagrid was there, and/or how he and Dumbledore communicated. I
&gt;&gt; suspect it's just one of those minor details that Rowling hasn't even
&gt;&gt; considered.
&gt;Well we can agree to disagree. I think this are important questions
&gt;which will be answered. And however the story of GH works out (I'm not
&gt;saying mine is THE correct version), we will find out the details of DD
&gt;and Hagrid's actions that night.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;See, you too are suspecting things based on clues given...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; More than a clue, actually. When asked whether Voldemort _really_
&gt;&gt; would have let Lily live, or whether he was just tormenting her,
&gt;&gt; Rowing said clearly that yes, he would have let her live. That almost
&gt;&gt; certainly means that Rowling has a storyline there that she plans to
&gt;&gt; tell. (_Why_ he let her live is mere speculation on my part.)
&gt;Exactly. That is what I meant. It is in the text the LV made an offer
&gt;to let Lilly live. I was questioning your reason as to why he offered
&gt;to let her leave, ie Snape. Certainly the offer to Lilly is an
&gt;important clue to something. And many, like you, have pieced together
&gt;that clue with the clues regarding the Lilly and Snape backstory. The
&gt;idea that Snape is there is certainly not far-fetched. And I favored it
&gt;for some time. Except that if Snape was there at GH, I don't see why
&gt;after witnessing what happens, he does not pickup Harry and go to DD.
&gt;Or if instead, he simply communicates with DD, why DD does not come
&gt;pick up Harry (with or without Hagrid).

I don't really think that Snape was there at GH. I just can't
completely rule it out. My guess is that it was just Voldemort and
perhaps Wormtail leading him there - plus the Potters, of course. (The
one advantage to having Wormtail present is that it allows him to
recover Voldemort's wand.)


&gt;&gt; &gt;It would not make sense otherwise...dumb ol'Hagrid gets the baby first,
&gt;&gt; &gt;tells the wise ol'DD about it and the DD goes &quot;Oh you got him? Take him
&gt;&gt; &gt;to Privet Drive. I'll meet you in 24 hours. I have some important
&gt;&gt; &gt;things to attend to.&quot;


&gt;&gt; &gt;This is the first contradiction. The secret hides James and Lilly but
&gt;&gt; &gt;not Harry, the target.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The secret is the family's hiding place. It's designed to protect the
&gt;&gt; family from attack by Voldemort. Once Voldemort has found the family
&gt;&gt; and destroyed it, the house itself is destroyed, and Voldemort himself
&gt;&gt; is dead, there is no secret left to protect.

&gt;Except where Harry is hiding. You have to come up with a strangely
&gt;worded secret which does not protect Harry's hiding place in case his
&gt;parents and or LV is destroyed.

I didn't come up with it. Rowling describes the secret as &quot;the
location of a family in hiding&quot;. Once there is no longer a family in
hiding, no longer an intact hiding place, and no longer the enemy that
was stalking them, there is no secret. It's the only way of defining
it that fits the facts. The charm is clearly not in effect when
Hagrid arrives at Godric's Hollow, or else he wouldn't have been able
to see the Potters.



&gt;&gt; Having Dumbledore tell Hagrid doesn't work if the Secret Keeper spell
&gt;&gt; is still in effect.
&gt;I only need 1 assumption if the FC is still in effect AND both DD and
&gt;Hagrid are not in on the secret: that there is an exceptional magical
&gt;means to bypass the secret known only to DD.

That is an enormous assumption to make, and is almost certainly wrong.
It goes against the entire spirit of absolute secrecy that Rowling has
built up around the FC. Note what she says here: &quot; nobody else - not
even the subjects of the secret themselves - can divulge the secret.
Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or
placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give
away the whereabouts of the other two.&quot; We are clearly talking about
an absolutely iron-clad secret here. There can be no loopholes.
Either the charm was in place or it was not. If it was, Hagrid
wouldn't have been able to find Harry. So obviously, it was not.


&gt;&gt; Rowling has indicates that while Wormtail could reveal the secret to
&gt;&gt; someone (e.g. Dumbledore), that person could not then reveal the
&gt;&gt; secret to someone else (e.g. Hagrid). In order for the spell to still
&gt;&gt; be in effect. Hagrid would have had to have been told the secret
&gt;&gt; directly by Wormtail. Otherwise, Hagrid would have been unable to even
&gt;&gt; see the remains of the family. And why would Wormtail tell Hagrid?
&gt;&gt; And if he had, Hagrid couldn't have revealed it to Dumbledore. Yet
&gt;&gt; Dumbledore knows about Godric's Hollow when he is on Privet Drive. In
&gt;&gt; fact, within hours, everyone in the magical world knew the story of
&gt;&gt; Godric's Hollow. If the Secret were still in effect, how could that
&gt;&gt; information have been passed from person to person? Obviously the
&gt;&gt; Secret was broken when the family's hiding place was found and
&gt;&gt; destroyed.

&gt;That is an assumption again, that people can't talk about the Potter's
&gt;hiding in GH. The DE's talk about the OotP HQ but they can't find it.

They may talk about there being a HQ, but they don't know where it is.
Godric's Hollow is specifically mentioned by name as the Potter's
hiding place. Not much of a secret if everyone knows where it is.


&gt;So say a DE follows a member of the OotP to 12 Grimmauld.

He could go physically there, or anywhere else, for some other reason,
but he couldn't know that their hiding place was at 12 Grimmauld.
Rowling has only dealt with how the secret works when one person is
telling another - she hasn't bothered to detail how it would work in
the case of someone being followed - and she almost certainly never
will. I feel no burden to write her story for her.


&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Hagrid happens to be in the neighborhood, spots the burning ruins of their
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; home, discovers the bodies of the Potters and rescues the surviving baby
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Harry.
&gt;&gt; &gt;How convenient.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; It doesn't really matter to me why Hagrid was in the neighborhood.
&gt;&gt; Only that he was there. It will most likely never be explained in the
&gt;&gt; books. But again, even if Dumbledore had known about the family's
&gt;&gt; hiding place, he could not have told Hagrid where to go, so long as
&gt;&gt; the Secret was in effect.

&gt;See, this are YOUR assumptions. 1) Hagrid is near GH coincidentally
&gt;even though he cannot know that the Potters are there because noone can
&gt;even say &quot;the Potter's are hiding at GH&quot;

1.) Someone had to find baby Harry and rescue him (if Rowling was to
tell the story). If it hadn't been Hagrid, she would have had to make
it someone else, and you now would be raising the same objections to
the fact that that person was there to do the needed job. All that is
important to the story is that Harry was rescued. If he dies - there
are no HP books. The fact that Hagrid did it is only relevant insofar
as it helps creates an emotional bond between he &amp; Harry later in the
story.


&gt; 2) The backfire cursed breaks
&gt;the FC or the FC breaks when certain conditions are met (Harry's
&gt;parents die and LV is nearly destroyed).

That is clearly demonstrable by the fact that the Potters were now
visible to Hagrid. If Hagrid can see them, the FC is broken.


&gt;3) Hagrid sees something when
&gt;the curse backfires, informs DD of what he finds.

If Hagrid (or any one of Dumbledore's supporters) is in Godric's
Hollow at the time of the magical explosion and the resulting fire,
they would certainly inform Dumbledore that the Potters had been
killed.


&gt;4) DD then
&gt;communicates back to Hagrid to take the baby to PD BEFORE DD goes to GH
&gt;himself.

That is indeed the way Rowling wrote it. There is no mention of
Dumbledore going to Godric's Hollow. Instead, he instructed Hagrid to
bring the baby to him on Privet Drive. If you don't like the way the
story was told, complain to JKR.


&gt;Compare with my assumptions. 1) The FC works like 12 Grimmauld but
&gt;(originally) only James, Lilly, Sirius and Pettigrew are in on the
&gt;secret (we then know that Pettigrew tells LV).

So far, so good.


&gt; 2) DD has a spy, a
&gt;magical exception (Fawkes), in GH That bypasses the FC.

Another huge leap. Not only do we not know that he had a spy at
Godric's Hollow, but we don't know that Fawkes was there, we don't
know that Fawkes is capable of overcoming the Fidelius Charm, and we
certainly don't know that he could tell Dumbledore anything about it.
That is a wild assumption at best.


&gt;3) DD has a
&gt;means, a magical exception (Fawkes or a Thestral) that bypasses the FC.
&gt;He shares this means with Hagrid and that's how Hagrid gets to GH.

That doesn't follow either. Even if Fawkes could somehow bypass the
Fidelius Charm and go to Godric's Hollow himself, even if he could
lead Hagrid to the house, Hagrid would still be unable to see the
Potters there if the charm hadn't been broken.


&gt;Your assumptions need a convieniently placed Hagrid to make the
&gt;reconstruction work.

One wizard being in Godric's Hollow is not all that convenient.


&gt;Plus they need a magical exception to the normally
&gt;absolutely unbreakable FC.

It's not an exception. It is simply how the charm finally ends - when
the secret ceases to be a secret.


My assumptions only require that DD has
&gt;magical exceptions to bypass the FC.

No, your assumptions require Fawkes to be able to defy the FC. They
require that Fawkes could then lead Hagrid to GC. They require that
Hagrid could then defy the FC and see the Potters.

It's much simpler (and far more likely) to assume that Hagrid simply
was the first one there after the charm disappeared.


&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Using some magical communication device (e.g. a set of matching mirrors,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; the old &quot;head in the fireplace&quot; routine, an owl), Hagrid contacts
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Dumbledore and tells him what happened.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;That could be except Hagrid can't do much magic.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; He can't send an owl?

&gt;That he can do but you mentioned the &quot;head in fireplace routine&quot; not
&gt;me.


I was simply mentioning some of the various methods of magical
communication available in the books... (there is also the patronus
communication, but I suspect that is probably beyond Hagrid's
prowess.) On the other hand, I suspect that the &quot;head in the
fireplace&quot; bit is simply a means of using flue powder, something
Hagrid could probably manage. But an owl is the least complicated
choice.


&gt;&gt; &gt;I say DD can somehow know what Fawkes saw.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; We have no evidence that Fawkes was anywhere near Godric's Hollow, let
&gt;&gt; alone that he was there and then somehow spoke to Dumbledore about
&gt;&gt; what happened there.

&gt;No we do not have evidence that Hagrid, Fawkes or AYNYONE was near GH
&gt;when the cursed backfired. The text only tells us the James, Lilly,
&gt;Harry, Pettigrew and LV were there. The rest is deduction.

We know that Hagrid was also nearby, because he apparently shows up
only a few seconds after the fatal explosion, &quot;before the Muggle
neighbors start milling around.&quot; it doesn't take long for neighbors
to come out of their houses when there's an explosion next door.
Unless you want to argue that he got there magically (e.g.
apparation), it's apparent that Hagrid was in the general area when
Voldemort attacked.


&gt;And all
&gt;assumptions that SOMEONE is near GH start from the fact the DD knows
&gt;too much by the time of Privet Drive.

My assumptions about that night are only what the story tells us: that
Hagrid was there to rescue Harry from the destroyed house, and that
Dumbledore and Hagrid had spoken about later bringing Harry to Privet
Drive.



&gt;&gt; &gt;But your assumption is based on the prior
&gt;&gt; &gt;assumptions that 1) the secret was broken once James an Lilly were dead
&gt;&gt; &gt;and 2) Hagrid was near GH. Those make sense to you but not to me.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; As I made clear above, the Secret had to have been broken.

&gt;It is not clear at all not even after JK's quote. In fact, after JK's
&gt;quote it's even more curious how the FC could be ever broken.

It's simple logic. The charm protects a secret. Once the secret
disappears, there is no need for the charm. The secret in this case
was the hiding place of the Potters. That hiding place had been
destroyed, the Potters had been found and murdered. There was no a
secret to protect.


&gt;&gt; &gt;And prior to that Hagrid was planning to get to Privet Drive how?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Again, we don't know the location of Godric's Hollow, or what means of
&gt;&gt; transportation are available between there and Privet Drive. All
&gt;&gt; Rowling wants us to know is that Dumbledore told Hagrid to bring the
&gt;&gt; baby to Privet Drive, and that Dumbledore didn't know about the flying
&gt;&gt; motorcycle - which means that there were obviously alternate means of
&gt;&gt; transportation available which Dumbledore assumed Hagrid would use.

&gt;DD is shown as someone who is prepared for all contigencies. He would
&gt;not have told Hagrid to go to PD without thinking whether Hagrid could
&gt;in fact get to PD with Harry.

I agree. There was obviously available transportation (either Muggle
or magical) between Godric's Hollow and Privet Drive. For some
reason, Hagrid chose not to use it, and opted for the flying
motorcycle instead (despite the fact that it would be difficult to
ride a normal motorcycle - let alone a flying one - while holding a
baby in one arm...)

The real reason is probably because Rowling wanted the giant to make a
dramatic entrance. And he did.

Rowling has shown, on many occasions, a willingness to take short cuts
when she wants to do something in the books.

Never ignore the simple needs of the writer. This is fiction, after
all, and the practical need to tell a story often accounts for the
otherwise inexplicable parts of a plot.

Here's a good example of that: For years, people here tried to figure
out what happened to all of Harry's relatives. How could they
possibly all be dead? I said that most likely, JKR simply wanted
Harry to be an orphan, and that was all there was to it. People
didn't want to believe it. Later, Rowing herself said:

&quot;As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was
completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family
apart from Aunt Petunia.... That's as far as it goes. There's nothing
serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the
way so I killed them.&quot;

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#90: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 04:15:49 by gjw

On 18 Jul 2006 12:54:03 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;gjw wrote:

&gt;&gt; Once again, the easiest answer is that Dumbledore didn't send Hagrid
&gt;&gt; at all. Hagrid was in Godric's Hollow for one reason or another and
&gt;&gt; discovered the smoking remains of the house and rescued Harry. He
&gt;&gt; then contacted Dumbledore, who told him to bring the child to Privet
&gt;&gt; Drive.

&gt;The backstory is full of suspense. LV is known to be plotting the muder
&gt;of one or another child. The Potters have used the FC charm which is
&gt;used to hide the OotP HQ. James and Sirius have not even told DD that
&gt;Pettigrew is the SK. Hagrid can't just be near GH for &quot;some reason or
&gt;another&quot;.

Sure he can.

&gt;He can only be there because he is protecting Harry.

Not at all. Given the fact that the neighborhood is named after a
wizard, there's a good chance that there are quite a few wizards
living there (and/or doing business there). That alone gives Hagrid,
or any other wizard, a reason to be in the village.

He couldn't have been there to protect Harry, because he can't know
Harry is there. It's a secret, remember? A secret that only Wormtail
could reveal. It's possible that Hagrid might have been in the
village to visit the Potters' house for some other reason, not
realizing that he was going to their hiding place, and was surprised
to find it in ruins when he arrived.


&gt;Regardless, this reconstruction still has some some assumptions (some
&gt;of which are hidden):
&gt;
&gt;- *Hagrid is near GH* - assumption - no explicitly stated in the text.

Obviously. But the fact that he arrives within seconds of the attack
would tend to confirm it.


&gt;- *Hagrid does not see LV enter the hiding place or is too late or too
&gt;slow to do anything about* - assumption - not explicitly stated in the
&gt;text.

Had Hagrid seen Voldemort approaching the Potter's house, he surely
would have tried to stop him. The fact that he didn't is proof that
he didn't see him. The most likely scenario is that he was either
attracted to the house by the explosion, or that he was on his way to
the house for some other reason and arrived just after the attack.


&gt;Curiously Hagrid is angry at himself at not having stopped Sirius
&gt;when he had the chance. Yet he does not EVER seem effected with the
&gt;remorse that he was at GH, near the Potter's, when the attack took
&gt;place and could not do anything to stop it. Completely out of
&gt;characater.

He simply arrived to late to do anything. And he feels lucky to have
saved the child. (Dumbledore doesn't seem to beat himself over the
head about it either.)


&gt;- Hagrid rescues Harry and is instructed by DD to take Harry to PD.
&gt;*Hagrid then must have some way to get Harry to PD before Sirius
&gt;arrives* - assumption - not explicitly stated in the text. What is it?
&gt;Did he have it before he got to GH? Did DD send it?

Obviously, if Dumbledore told him to come to Privet Drive, Hagrid had
a means of getting there. What that means was is pointless (except
that a flying motorcycle was obviously preferable to Hagrid).


&gt;- In this scenario, Hagrid is not in the hiding place. So he does not
&gt;see Lilly makes the sacrifice. Yet DD knows about this.

As far as I can gather, Dumbledore simply put two &amp; two together. The
mother was dead, the child was alive (but scarred), and Voldemort's
curse had backfired on him. To a wizard like Dumbledore,
well-aquainted with the maternal protection magic, it was obvious what
had happened.

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#91: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 04:22:09 by gjw

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:59:04 +1000, Sky Rider &lt;<a href="mailto:home&#64;therange.com" target="_blank">home&#64;therange.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:57:51 GMT, gjw &lt;<a href="mailto:gjw&#64;example.net" target="_blank">gjw&#64;example.net</a>&gt; looked at Ron
&gt;with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;&gt;On 17 Jul 2006 23:10:50 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Once again, the easiest answer is that Dumbledore didn't send Hagrid
&gt;&gt;at all. Hagrid was in Godric's Hollow for one reason or another and
&gt;&gt;discovered the smoking remains of the house and rescued Harry. He
&gt;&gt;then contacted Dumbledore, who told him to bring the child to Privet
&gt;&gt;Drive.
&gt;
&gt;I don't think Hagrid would have been in Godric's Hollow accidentally.
&gt;
&gt;On the current level of information I'd have said the place was
&gt;somewhat obscurely located in mid-Wales or similar. We know it can't
&gt;be a 'wizarding village' because Hogsmeade is the only one so there is
&gt;currently no reason to assume Hagrid (because he stands out so much)
&gt;would have cause to be in a muggle village unless directed there by
&gt;Dumbledore.

It's called &quot;Godric's Hollow&quot;, for pete's sake. Of course there are
more than your average quota of wizards there. Which provides Hagrid
with all the reason he needs to be there. But his reason doesn't
really matter. All that matters is that Hagrid was there at the right
time because Rowling wanted him to be there at the right time.
Otherwise, Harry isn't rescued and we have no HP stories...


&gt;And to make it even simpler it may be that Dumbledore wasn't sure
&gt;Voldemort had vanished and *if* Harry *had* been killed then his duty
&gt;was to protect Neville who would then clearly have been 'the chosen
&gt;one'.
&gt;Because he didn't *know* for certain Voldemort was gone and Harry was
&gt;still alive, he thought it best to send Hagrid to check rather than go
&gt;himself while he stayed on to guard Neville!!


Hagrid showed up within minutes, maybe within seconds, of the
explosion (the Muggle neighbors were just beginning to mill around the
ruins of the house). Dumbledore would have no reason to think that
Voldemort had vanished at that point. (And Hagrid wouldn't have been
able to arrive that quickly, even if he had been sent there the moment
the house exploded - he can't apparate.)

Report this message

#92: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 04:58:06 by gjw

On 18 Jul 2006 15:08:39 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;Let me compare and contrast my proposed reconstruction with the
&gt;&quot;standard&quot; ones, not like there is a &quot;standard&quot; one but anyway:
&gt;
&gt;Regarding the FC...
&gt;
&gt;STANDARD: The FC is broken OR DD and Hagrid are in on the secret of the
&gt;FC.

Hagrid cannot know the secret. The only ones who can know are those
who Wormtail told _directly_. And those who know cannot tell anyone
else. Why would Wormtail tell Hagrid?


&gt;*Stated Explicitly In The Text: No

Agreed. But it can be reasonably assumed from the events.


&gt;*Evidence For: Hagrid goes to GH to pick up Harry.

The fact that Hagrid can see the Potter is evidence that the secret is
broken, and evidence that Hagrid was in Godric's Hollow at
approximately the same time. It is not evidence that either Hagrid or
Dumbledore knew the secret in advance.


&gt;*Evidence Against: DD does not go to GH to pick up Harry.

Since Hagrid was already on the spot to rescue Harry, the only thing
left to be done is for Hagrid to deliver Harry to Dumbledore. The only
real question - in my opinion - is why it took him so long to do so.
But that could merely be a bit of sloppy writing on JKR's part...


&gt;*Assumption That Has To Be Made To Accept: DD has something more
&gt;important to do than pick up Harry.

Harry was already safe with Hagrid. Dumbledore was confident that
Hagrid could safely deliver him. McGonagall challenges Dumbledore's
judgement about trusting Hagrid to keep Harry safe. Dumbledore
replies that &quot;I would trust Hagrid with my life.&quot;


&gt;PROPOSED: The FC is NOT broken (it's still in effect) AND DD and Hagrid
&gt;are NOT in on the secret.

Then Hagrid would have been unable to see the Potters when he got
there, and baby Harry never would have been rescued.

&gt;*Stated Explicitly In The Text: No

Agreed.


&gt;*Evidence For: DD does not go to GH to pick up Harry.

That is evidence only of the fact that Hagrid beat him to it (and/or
that he trusts Hagrid enough to do the job).


&gt;*Evidence Against: Hagrid goes to GH to pick up Harry.
&gt;*Assumptions That Have To Be Made To Accept: DD has a magical means to
&gt;bypass the secret (Fawkes or a Thestral). This means is slow and DD
&gt;can't spare the long time it would take because he has many things to
&gt;do. He sends Hagrid by this means instead.

Rather than simply accept the fact that Hagrid was in Godric's Hollow
that night, you'd rather invent an unsupported way of breaking the
unbreakable Fidelius charm and give Fawkes special powers that he
doesn't have?



&gt;Regarding who picks up Harry...
&gt;
&gt;STANDARD: Hagrid picks up Harry right away.
&gt;*Stated Explicitly In The Text: No
&gt;*Evidence For: It's natural to assume that that someone would get to
&gt;Harry quickly. But there is little evidence in the text for it.

Yes there is.

Hagrid says: &quot;It was me what rescued Harry from Lily an' James's house
after they was killed! jus' got him outta the ruins, poor little
thing, with a great slash across his forehead, an' his parents
dead...&quot; and &quot;...house was almost destroyed, but I got him out all
right before the Muggles started swarmin' around...&quot;


&gt;*Evidence Against: Hagrid gets to GH after muggles are swarming about
&gt;and just before Sirius arrives. It then takes 24 hours to get from GH
&gt;to PD.

There was an explosion that demolished the house. How many seconds
(or at most, minutes) do you think it would take for the neighbors to
come out and see what happened?

&gt;
&gt;Regarding how DD knows what he knows...
&gt;
&gt;STANDARD-NO-SPY: DD either goes to GH (but does not pick up Harry) or
&gt;DD has some magical means to know what happened at GH.

Or Hagrid is in Godric's Hollow at the time, and tells Dumbledore what
has happened.


&gt;PROPOSED-SPY-FAWKES: DD has a spy, a witness at GH that tells him what
&gt;went on. This spy is the magical creature Fawkes.
&gt;*Stated Explicitly In The Text: No.
&gt;*Evidence For: A magical creature can get around wizard defenses.

If it were that simple, Voldemort would have simply gotten his hands
on a magical creature and broken the Fidelius Code for himself.



&gt;Fawkes can apparate at the Ministry.

So did Voldemort and the Death Eaters. But apparating at Hogwarts is
a neater trick.


&gt;Fawkes can survive an AK.

He didn't really survive. He died, and (as phoenixes are wont to do)
was reborn from his ashes.

Report this message

#93: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 17:02:27 by ag30476

Sky Rider wrote:
&gt; I figured the only way Dumbledore could have known about all this is
&gt; from a witness.
I agree and so do many others.

&gt; Since we know he'd not have spoken to Wormtail...
That is a reasonable deduction.

&gt; there are few other possibilities... and as one of Voldemorts closest
&gt; DE's, *and* as the person who passed on as much of the prophecy as was
&gt; known... Snape is the only logical choice. So Snape was there, saw the
&gt; whole thing and informed Dumbledore.
But then Snape would have to leave Harry there alone and go tell Snape.
Or Harry communicated with DD, DD communicated with Hagrid, and Hagrid
went to fecth Harry while Snape either went somewhere else or hid so
that neither Hagrid not Sirius saw him.

In the end, for me, it can't be a wizard that is the spy because no
(good) adult human would leave a 1 year old alone especially after the
traumatic experiences GH.

&gt; Dumbledore didn't know if Harry was alive or dead sent Hagrid to check
&gt; while he sped off to protect Neville. Snape returned to Hogwarts and
&gt; remained there until he killed Dumbledore.
Although DD could have been protecting Neville the excat sequence you
just proposed makes no sense. Any reconstruction of the events must be
exact and logical.

The point of having Snape at GH is to explain why DD knows what
happened to Lilly, LV and Harry before he gets to Privet Drive. If
Snape &quot;saw the whole thing&quot; then DD should go to GH with or without
Hagrid. Why? Because LV is dead. He cannot attack Neville. DD can only
rush off to protect Neville is some other info source tells him Neville
is in danger. Or perhaps, DD was in the process of protecting Neville
from a real threat (an ongoing or threatened DE attack) and so sends
Hagrid to GH after hearing from Snape. So in this case (Snape sees all
but DD goes to Neville), Snape does not explain why DD went off to
Neville and we must suppose another threat to Neville offstage.

If Snape didn't know that Harry was alive or dead, then it's doubtful
that he saw everything. And this still does not explain why DD went to
Neville. If you don't know that Harry is alive or dead then he COULD be
alive so you must RUSH off there right away. Again, DD would only not
do this if there was a DIRECT threat to Neville. And again we have to
assume a DIRECT threat to Neville offstage.

&gt; Trouble is that not only doesn't this explain much... it adds even
&gt; more complications... for example... had he been there he surely must
&gt; have known Harry was still alive... so why didn't he take him
&gt; himself.. esp. if there was a possibility Harry might be Voldies
&gt; 'replacement' as the great dark lord??
Exactly.

&gt; Also... as with the rest of this thread... Dumbledore could have
&gt; apparated to Godric's Hollow, obliviated the memories of any muggles
&gt; he found there and sped back in seconds... why didn't he?
Well there's probably a union rule at the Ministry but that is also a
good question. But it's the inability (on my part admittedly) to answer
questions like that plotwise that lead me to reject Snape as a spy
candidate.

&gt; Clearly we are still missing vital parts of the story.
As JK intended.

Report this message

#94: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 18:38:35 by ag30476

gjw wrote:
&gt; I don't really think that Snape was there at GH. I just can't
&gt; completely rule it out. My guess is that it was just Voldemort and
&gt; perhaps Wormtail leading him there - plus the Potters, of course. (The
&gt; one advantage to having Wormtail present is that it allows him to
&gt; recover Voldemort's wand.)
Agreed. Pettigrew has to be there for the wand. I too thought Snape was
the spy for a time (and it's a nice story twist). But I rule it out now
because there are just too many complications. I can't completely rule
him out either in that there is nothing which directly contradicts him
being there.

&gt; &gt;Except where Harry is hiding. You have to come up with a strangely
&gt; &gt;worded secret which does not protect Harry's hiding place in case his
&gt; &gt;parents and or LV is destroyed.
&gt;
&gt; I didn't come up with it. Rowling describes the secret as &quot;the
&gt; location of a family in hiding&quot;. Once there is no longer a family in
&gt; hiding, no longer an intact hiding place, and no longer the enemy that
&gt; was stalking them, there is no secret.
Well by &quot;you have to come up with&quot; I meant &quot;one has to come up with&quot;
where on is anyone including JK. JK's description is not inconsistent
with the secret at 12 Grimmauld. She says it hides the &quot;location of a
family in hiding&quot; which can jsut as easily be taken to mean &quot;the FC
secret is the location [of a family in hiding]&quot; as it is taken by you
to mean the FC secret is [the location of a family in hiding]. In the
former, the FC hides the location and the family hides in the location.
When the family is killed, the location is still secret.
To make the secret &quot;the location of a family in hiding&quot; AND to have the
secret broken when the parents are killed THEN the secret MUST have an
implicit or explicit clause that when James and Lilly are killed, the
family no longer exists. This is a strange secret because in this
(admittedly rare and unforeseen) event, the survivor, Harry, is NOT
protected.

&gt; It's the only way of defining
&gt; it that fits the facts.
It is not. In fact, it is contrary to known facts. Before book 5, we
could have supposed that the secret was one of many things. But after
12 Grimmauld, it is simplest to assume that the FC at GH works the
same. In fact, there is nothing to say otherwise (of course it could be
but why make it complicated?)

&gt; The charm is clearly not in effect when
&gt; Hagrid arrives at Godric's Hollow, or else he wouldn't have been able
&gt; to see the Potters.
That is not clear at all. Here you assume what the FC would do. That
the FC woudl hide the Potters even if Hagrid went to the hiding place.
Actually this is clearly NOT how FC's work. In book 6, the DE's ask
Snape about the location. Snape explains that he cannot tell because of
the FC. That is, the DE's would love to know how to get 12 Grimmauld
and launch an attack there (under the right cirmcumstances).

&gt; &gt;&gt; Having Dumbledore tell Hagrid doesn't work if the Secret Keeper spell
&gt; &gt;&gt; is still in effect.
&gt; &gt;I only need 1 assumption if the FC is still in effect AND both DD and
&gt; &gt;Hagrid are not in on the secret: that there is an exceptional magical
&gt; &gt;means to bypass the secret known only to DD.
&gt;
&gt; That is an enormous assumption to make, and is almost certainly wrong.
It may be wrong but it is certainly not &quot;enormous&quot;. It is no more
enormous than the assumptions you and others make.

Since we are not told the exact nature of the secret we don't know
whether it is in place, broken by the Potter's death or broken by the
backfiring curse. These are things we have to deduce or assume. We also
don't know who knew the secret, whether DD or Hagrid knew the secret or
whether Hagrid got there because the secret was broken. These are all
deductions.

In order to deduce the the FC is broken, you must make an exception to
a magical absolute. The FC is one of those magical absolutes in the HP
world. By magical absolute, I don't mean how magic in HP works, I mean
simply the description and import JK gives to the absolute. For ex, an
Unforgiveable Curse is &quot;unforgiveable&quot; and it is fortunate for Harry
that his attempts at such have been ineffective. You CAN'T survive an
AK curse (unless you meet certain exceptions). And so on. JK has mde it
clear that the FC is &quot;extremely powerful&quot; and the secret dies with the
secret keeper. So to break the FC curse is another example of breaking
one of JK's magical absolutes (which is something that happens all the
time without paradoxically breaking SOD).

To say that the backfired curse broke the FC or to say that the death
of Harry's parents (but not Harry) breaks the FC is to say that some
exception breaks the curse. All I have supposed is that the FC is in
place but somehow Hagrid can get to the secret place by another magical
exception (Fawkes or a Thestral).

&gt; It goes against the entire spirit of absolute secrecy that Rowling has
&gt; built up around the FC.
Rowling routinely breaks her own absolutes in the HP world, absolutes
regarding secrecy and security. You can't apparate in Hogwarts grounds
unless you are a house-elf. You can't apparate at the Ministry unless
you are a phoenix. You can't survive an AK curse unless you are a
phoenix or unless your mother sacrifices herself. All animagi are
registered unless you are James, Sirius, Pettigrew or Rita Skeeter. The
mauraders map can show everyone on Hogwarts grounds unless you are
using a time turner, then only the Hermione in the current timeline is
shown. And you can't break an FC unless an AK curse backfires or unless
you kill 2/3 family members the FC is protecting.

The fact that JK can do this is a testament to her ability as a writer
to build up SOD in the magic of her HP world.

&gt; Note what she says here: &quot; nobody else - not
&gt; even the subjects of the secret themselves - can divulge the secret.
&gt; Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or
&gt; placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give
&gt; away the whereabouts of the other two.&quot; We are clearly talking about
&gt; an absolutely iron-clad secret here.
And we know how long those last with JK.

&gt; There can be no loopholes.
Except that a family is defined as not existing if the parents are
killed even if the son survives. That's not a loophole in your assumed
version of the FC at GH?

&gt; Either the charm was in place or it was not. If it was, Hagrid
&gt; wouldn't have been able to find Harry. So obviously, it was not.
Except if there was an exception. See IF the FC is still in place and
Hagrid is in on the FC, then so it makes sense the DD is in on he FC
and then DD should be at GH too. That is FC in place AND DD is in on
secret leads to PLOT HOLE (DD is not at GH). Then you have to make
another assumption that DD is off doing SOMETHING MORE IMPORTANT.

IF the FC is not in place and Hagrid gets there, then so it makes sense
the DD should be at GH too. That is FC is not in place AND DD is not at
GH leads to the same PLOT HOLE (DD is not at GH). You again have to
make another assumption that DD is off doing SOMETHING MORE IMPORTANT.

Look at my assumptions. Look at yours. Mine are actually simpler.

&gt; &gt;That is an assumption again, that people can't talk about the Potter's
&gt; &gt;hiding in GH. The DE's talk about the OotP HQ but they can't find it.
&gt;
&gt; They may talk about there being a HQ, but they don't know where it is.
EXACTLY.

&gt; Godric's Hollow is specifically mentioned by name as the Potter's
&gt; hiding place. Not much of a secret if everyone knows where it is.
GH is a VILLAGE.

&gt; &gt;So say a DE follows a member of the OotP to 12 Grimmauld.
&gt;
&gt; He could go physically there, or anywhere else, for some other reason,
&gt; but he couldn't know that their hiding place was at 12 Grimmauld.
12 Grimmauld is a HOUSE. According to you, the DE's cannot even talk
about the town they were in when they lost track of the OotP they were
following.

Look, it's simple really. Everyone knew the Potters were at GH
*somewhere*. How? LV had spies. They saw them go there or they saw
Hagrid or D or whoever else is in on the secret go there. But then they
disappear and can't be found even if you are in GH. This is the same as
12 Grimmauld. Harry goes right up to the house but he can't see it or
enter it.

&gt; Rowling has only dealt with how the secret works when one person is
&gt; telling another - she hasn't bothered to detail how it would work in
&gt; the case of someone being followed - and she almost certainly never
&gt; will. I feel no burden to write her story for her.
But you in fact are. You have made a ton of assumptions and deductions
from the scant info given in book 1 about the nature of the FC at GH.
yet you have ignored the 2nd example of a GH in book 5 when she spells
out exactly how it works.

&gt; &gt;See, this are YOUR assumptions. 1) Hagrid is near GH coincidentally
&gt; &gt;even though he cannot know that the Potters are there because noone can
&gt; &gt;even say &quot;the Potter's are hiding at GH&quot;
&gt;
&gt; 1.) Someone had to find baby Harry and rescue him (if Rowling was to
&gt; tell the story). If it hadn't been Hagrid, she would have had to make
&gt; it someone else, and you now would be raising the same objections to
&gt; the fact that that person was there to do the needed job. All that is
&gt; important to the story is that Harry was rescued. If he dies - there
&gt; are no HP books. The fact that Hagrid did it is only relevant insofar
&gt; as it helps creates an emotional bond between he &amp; Harry later in the
&gt; story.
Exactly. Someone has to find the baby. You are supposing this finding
to be accidental (Hagrid was conveniently near GH.) Remember we are
talking about a storyline here that is written to be in part a
detective story. We are not talking about a real life story. In a real
life story many things happen just by accident. In a detecttive story
too, things can happen by accident and the writer uses these as plot
twists. But here, in this story, the finding of Harry accidentally is
not just not plausible.

&gt; &gt; 2) The backfire cursed breaks
&gt; &gt;the FC or the FC breaks when certain conditions are met (Harry's
&gt; &gt;parents die and LV is nearly destroyed).
&gt;
&gt; That is clearly demonstrable by the fact that the Potters were now
&gt; visible to Hagrid. If Hagrid can see them, the FC is broken.
That is is YOU assume the FC works like YOU imagine. If the FC works
like it does at 12 Grimmauld then all Harry has to do is get to the
hiding place. If Hagrid is in on the secret, the clearly he can get to
the hiding place (but that brings up the plot hole of why DD did not
go). If there is some excpetion that DD knows (Fawkes or Hagrid), then
Hagrid can get to the hiding place without being in on the FC.

&gt; &gt;3) Hagrid sees something when
&gt; &gt;the curse backfires, informs DD of what he finds.
&gt;
&gt; If Hagrid (or any one of Dumbledore's supporters) is in Godric's
&gt; Hollow at the time of the magical explosion and the resulting fire,
&gt; they would certainly inform Dumbledore that the Potters had been
&gt; killed.
Thanks for elaborating on what I said.

&gt; &gt;4) DD then
&gt; &gt;communicates back to Hagrid to take the baby to PD BEFORE DD goes to GH
&gt; &gt;himself.
&gt;
&gt; That is indeed the way Rowling wrote it.
That is indeed nothing of the kind. We don't know if DD has ever been
at the hiding place. It is not explicitly stated anywhere. It is
something that has to be deduced.

&gt; There is no mention of
&gt; Dumbledore going to Godric's Hollow.
Which does not mean he did not go.

&gt; Instead, he instructed Hagrid to
&gt; bring the baby to him on Privet Drive.
Which is your logical deduction. What you are trying to say is that
this is what JK wrote not what you deduced and that is just not the
case. Your reconstruction has to have deductions and assumptions. ANY
reconstruction has to have deductions and assumptions. The question is
which reconstruction gives the best fit. I have already laid out my
arguments in favor of mine and against yours ad nasuseum.

&gt; If you don't like the way the
&gt; story was told, complain to JKR.
Obviously since I am a fan, I have no problems with JK's story. Yours
on thr other hand leaves a lot to be desired.

&gt; &gt;Compare with my assumptions. 1) The FC works like 12 Grimmauld but
&gt; &gt;(originally) only James, Lilly, Sirius and Pettigrew are in on the
&gt; &gt;secret (we then know that Pettigrew tells LV).
&gt;
&gt; So far, so good.
Not sure what you are agreeing to here. Clearly you do not think that
the FC at GH works like 12 Grimmauld.

&gt; &gt; 2) DD has a spy, a
&gt; &gt;magical exception (Fawkes), in GH That bypasses the FC.
&gt;
&gt; Another huge leap. Not only do we not know that he had a spy at
&gt; Godric's Hollow, but we don't know that Fawkes was there, we don't
&gt; know that Fawkes is capable of overcoming the Fidelius Charm, and we
&gt; certainly don't know that he could tell Dumbledore anything about it.
&gt; That is a wild assumption at best.
It's not wild at all. We don't but MANY have supposed this to be true
because DD knows so many details before Privet Drive. The only thing
I'm saying that is a little different is that Fawkes was the spy as
opposed to Snape or Lupin or whoever. And you yourself admit to not
being able to rule out that Snape was at the Potters.


&gt; &gt;3) DD has a
&gt; &gt;means, a magical exception (Fawkes or a Thestral) that bypasses the FC.
&gt; &gt;He shares this means with Hagrid and that's how Hagrid gets to GH.
&gt;
&gt; That doesn't follow either. Even if Fawkes could somehow bypass the
&gt; Fidelius Charm and go to Godric's Hollow himself, even if he could
&gt; lead Hagrid to the house, Hagrid would still be unable to see the
&gt; Potters there if the charm hadn't been broken.
That is your UNSUPPORTED assumption of the FC works. It also IGNORES
how the FC works at 12 Grimmauld.

&gt; &gt;Your assumptions need a convieniently placed Hagrid to make the
&gt; &gt;reconstruction work.
&gt;
&gt; One wizard being in Godric's Hollow is not all that convenient.
It is extremely convenient. It is known that LV is looking for Harry.
Harryis hidden. Are not the DE's following known or suspected OotP'ers
like Hagrid? So either Hagrid is in GH making sure he is not followed
or he just happens to be unknowingly going to the same village that
Harry is hidden and that too is convenient.

Now ask the character question. If Hagrid was at GH, for OotP purposes
or just on his own, and LV attacks the Potters that night that he is
there, dont you think overly-sensitive and protective Hagrid would have
some guilt about being there and not being able to do anything about
it. Before you say &quot;well he coudl see the Potters&quot;, my question is not
about Hagrid seeing LV enter the hiding place about Hagrid seeing LV
enter GH. And before you say &quot;well there is no way that Hagrid could
LOGICALLLY blah blah blah&quot;, my question is about the character of
Hagrid NOT what is logical.

When Hagrid meets Sirius, he does not know (incorreclty) that Sirius is
the SK. But later he finds out that Sirius is the SK (although we the
readers find out later its Pettigrew). After Hagrid learns that false
fact, he feels guilty about not stopping Sirius even though his job was
to protect the baby in his arms not catch Sirius and even though at the
time Hagrid did not know Sirius was the SK. So if Hagrid had been at GH
the night LV attacks, he would have been extremely guilt ridden about
being powerless to stop the attack. The fact that he is not means that
in all likelyhood, Hagrid was not in GH when the attack happened.


&gt; &gt;Plus they need a magical exception to the normally
&gt; &gt;absolutely unbreakable FC.
&gt;
&gt; It's not an exception. It is simply how the charm finally ends - when
&gt; the secret ceases to be a secret.
See above.

&gt;
&gt; My assumptions only require that DD has
&gt; &gt;magical exceptions to bypass the FC.
&gt;
&gt; No, your assumptions require Fawkes to be able to defy the FC.
Exactly. Thanks for specifying my previous statement.

&gt; They require that Fawkes could then lead Hagrid to GC.
Simple. Fawkes apparates with Hagrid or let's him grab on to his tale
feather. This one is a no-brainer.

&gt; They require that Hagrid could then defy the FC and see the Potters.
See above. The way YOU assume the FC to work is probably not the way
the FC works.

&gt; It's much simpler (and far more likely) to assume that Hagrid simply
&gt; was the first one there after the charm disappeared.
Not simpler and not more likely.

&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Using some magical communication device (e.g. a set of matching mirrors,
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; the old &quot;head in the fireplace&quot; routine, an owl), Hagrid contacts
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Dumbledore and tells him what happened.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;That could be except Hagrid can't do much magic.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; He can't send an owl?
&gt;
&gt; &gt;That he can do but you mentioned the &quot;head in fireplace routine&quot; not
&gt; &gt;me.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I was simply mentioning some of the various methods of magical
&gt; communication available in the books... (there is also the patronus
&gt; communication, but I suspect that is probably beyond Hagrid's
&gt; prowess.)
For no reason apparently because now you are admitting that Hagrid
can't do the head in the fireplace routine.

&gt; On the other hand, I suspect that the &quot;head in the
&gt; fireplace&quot; bit is simply a means of using flue powder, something
&gt; Hagrid could probably manage.
Probably?

&gt; But an owl is the least complicated choice.
Then stick with it.

&gt; &gt;No we do not have evidence that Hagrid, Fawkes or AYNYONE was near GH
&gt; &gt;when the cursed backfired. The text only tells us the James, Lilly,
&gt; &gt;Harry, Pettigrew and LV were there. The rest is deduction.
&gt;
&gt; We know that Hagrid was also nearby, because he apparently shows up
&gt; only a few seconds after the fatal explosion, &quot;before the Muggle
&gt; neighbors start milling around.&quot;
WRONG. We don't know the exact time. In fact, the text references we
have are all of Hagrid after Sirius gets there or after DD communicates
with Hagrid.

In fact, the text implies that DD sent Hagrid to pick up the baby which
to MOST people imply that Hagrid was not there first.

YOU are deducing the Hagrid is in GH (not explicitly stated), finds
Harry with seconds (not explicitly stated) and tells DD (not explicitly
stated). Why can't you just admit to the assumptions you make.



&gt; it doesn't take long for neighbors
&gt; to come out of their houses when there's an explosion next door.
&gt; Unless you want to argue that he got there magically (e.g.
&gt; apparation), it's apparent that Hagrid was in the general area when
&gt; Voldemort attacked.
See above for why that is such a bad deduction. In all likelyhood,
Hagrid was nowhere near GH.

&gt; &gt;And all
&gt; &gt;assumptions that SOMEONE is near GH start from the fact the DD knows
&gt; &gt;too much by the time of Privet Drive.
&gt;
&gt; My assumptions about that night are only what the story tells us:
LOL. Your assumptions are assumptions just like the rest of the
assumptions/deductions everyone else makes. What you have to show is
the likelyhood of your assumptions being true which you haven't.


&gt; that Hagrid was there to rescue Harry from the destroyed house,
That's in the text. But you assume Hagrid was in GH before LV attacks.
To most people, that will make no sense. See above for the various
reasons.

&gt; and that Dumbledore and Hagrid had spoken about later bringing Harry to
&gt; Privet Drive.
That's not in the text either. We don't know when DD spoke to Hagrid
about taking Harry to PD.

&gt; &gt;It is not clear at all not even after JK's quote. In fact, after JK's
&gt; &gt;quote it's even more curious how the FC could be ever broken.
&gt;
&gt; It's simple logic. The charm protects a secret. Once the secret
&gt; disappears, there is no need for the charm. The secret in this case
&gt; was the hiding place of the Potters. That hiding place had been
&gt; destroyed, the Potters had been found and murdered. There was no a
&gt; secret to protect.
Now you are changing everything. First you said it was the Potter's
death that destroyed the FC. Now you say it's the destruction of the
hiding place. The house was not destroyed, only nearly destroyed. What
exactly does that mean? Who knows? Regardless, you consistently
assume/deduce the way the secret works(see your logica above) while
ignoring the way the FC works at 12 Grimmauld.

&gt; I agree. There was obviously available transportation (either Muggle
&gt; or magical) between Godric's Hollow and Privet Drive. For some
&gt; reason, Hagrid chose not to use it, and opted for the flying
&gt; motorcycle instead (despite the fact that it would be difficult to
&gt; ride a normal motorcycle - let alone a flying one - while holding a
&gt; baby in one arm...)
&gt;
&gt; The real reason is probably because Rowling wanted the giant to make a
&gt; dramatic entrance. And he did.
And flying on an invisible skeletal horse, a dragon, a gryphon, or
pulled by a phoenix is not dramatic. Why not just let Hagrid own the
bike? The clue here is that it is Sirius' bike. That is the bike is
used to introduce Sirius. That's why she uses the bike. But in writing
the backstory, JK does not simply say &quot;OH nice I can mention Sirius
here in chapter 1&quot;. No, in writing her backsory she goes &quot;To introduce
Sirius here I will use the bike. For Hagrid to use the bike, he must
abondon his previous mode of transport. Hagrid original mode of
transport was X.&quot; See this is how you write a consistent backstory.

&gt; Rowling has shown, on many occasions, a willingness to take short cuts
&gt; when she wants to do something in the books.
When it does not affect SOD and the central backstory affects SOD.

&gt; Never ignore the simple needs of the writer. This is fiction, after
&gt; all, and the practical need to tell a story often accounts for the
&gt; otherwise inexplicable parts of a plot.
See above.

&gt; Here's a good example of that: For years, people here tried to figure
&gt; out what happened to all of Harry's relatives. How could they
&gt; possibly all be dead? I said that most likely, JKR simply wanted
&gt; Harry to be an orphan, and that was all there was to it. People
&gt; didn't want to believe it. Later, Rowing herself said:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was
&gt; completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family
&gt; apart from Aunt Petunia.... That's as far as it goes. There's nothing
&gt; serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the
&gt; way so I killed them.&quot;
That reflects the idiocy of certain readers not JK's style. In fact, it
shows that JK removed relatives for simplicity, ie so she would not
have to spend time on them and not mention them inadverdantly and cause
incosistencies or SOD issues. That all points to careful writer who
creates a proper backstory without hanging plot holes (why DD did not
pick up Harry), unsaisfying conveniences (Hagrid wondering through GH)
or charaters acting out-of-character (Hagrid not feeling guilty about
being in GH but being powerless to stop LV).

Report this message

#95: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 18:57:14 by ag30476

gjw wrote:
&gt; &gt;The backstory is full of suspense. LV is known to be plotting the muder
&gt; &gt;of one or another child. The Potters have used the FC charm which is
&gt; &gt;used to hide the OotP HQ. James and Sirius have not even told DD that
&gt; &gt;Pettigrew is the SK. Hagrid can't just be near GH for &quot;some reason or
&gt; &gt;another&quot;.
&gt;
&gt; Sure he can.
In the context of this backstory that is a very happy and strange
coincidence.

&gt; &gt;He can only be there because he is protecting Harry.
&gt;
&gt; Not at all. Given the fact that the neighborhood is named after a
&gt; wizard, there's a good chance that there are quite a few wizards
&gt; living there (and/or doing business there). That alone gives Hagrid,
&gt; or any other wizard, a reason to be in the village.
And that's not an assumption on your part?

&gt; He couldn't have been there to protect Harry, because he can't know
&gt; Harry is there. It's a secret, remember?
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. See my previous. You can say &quot;the Potters are
hiding in the village of FC&quot; with the FC in place. That phrase won't
help you find the location they are hiding in. For example, the DE's
could say &quot;the OotP HQ in London&quot; without finding 12 Grimmauld.

&gt; A secret that only Wormtail
&gt; could reveal. It's possible that Hagrid might have been in the
&gt; village to visit the Potters' house for some other reason, not
&gt; realizing that he was going to their hiding place, and was surprised
&gt; to find it in ruins when he arrived.
Possible uncessary assumption number...sorry I lost count.

&gt; &gt;Regardless, this reconstruction still has some some assumptions (some
&gt; &gt;of which are hidden):
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;- *Hagrid is near GH* - assumption - no explicitly stated in the text.
&gt;
&gt; Obviously. But the fact that he arrives within seconds of the attack
&gt; would tend to confirm it.
It does not say that in the text. That is an assumption you (and many
others) make.

&gt; &gt;- *Hagrid does not see LV enter the hiding place or is too late or too
&gt; &gt;slow to do anything about* - assumption - not explicitly stated in the
&gt; &gt;text.
&gt;
&gt; Had Hagrid seen Voldemort approaching the Potter's house, he surely
&gt; would have tried to stop him. The fact that he didn't is proof that
&gt; he didn't see him. The most likely scenario is that he was either
&gt; attracted to the house by the explosion, or that he was on his way to
&gt; the house for some other reason and arrived just after the attack.
Exactly. Your just elaborating here.

&gt; &gt;Curiously Hagrid is angry at himself at not having stopped Sirius
&gt; &gt;when he had the chance. Yet he does not EVER seem effected with the
&gt; &gt;remorse that he was at GH, near the Potter's, when the attack took
&gt; &gt;place and could not do anything to stop it. Completely out of
&gt; &gt;characater.
&gt;
&gt; He simply arrived to late to do anything. And he feels lucky to have
&gt; saved the child. (Dumbledore doesn't seem to beat himself over the
&gt; head about it either.)
You may buy that but I don't.

&gt; &gt;- Hagrid rescues Harry and is instructed by DD to take Harry to PD.
&gt; &gt;*Hagrid then must have some way to get Harry to PD before Sirius
&gt; &gt;arrives* - assumption - not explicitly stated in the text. What is it?
&gt; &gt;Did he have it before he got to GH? Did DD send it?
&gt;
&gt; Obviously, if Dumbledore told him to come to Privet Drive, Hagrid had
&gt; a means of getting there. What that means was is pointless (except
&gt; that a flying motorcycle was obviously preferable to Hagrid).
It's not pointless for the backstory. This is the central backstory. JK
wrote it bullet proof. And it's not a hard thing to do, if you'er a
good writer.

&gt; &gt;- In this scenario, Hagrid is not in the hiding place. So he does not
&gt; &gt;see Lilly makes the sacrifice. Yet DD knows about this.
&gt;
&gt; As far as I can gather, Dumbledore simply put two &amp; two together.
An assumption AGAIN because it is not explcitly stated. The problem
with this is that he put &quot;two &amp; two&quot; together without seeing Harry or
going to GH* or having a direct witness (if we are to belive the Hagrid
is first on the scene scenario for Privet Drive).

*Unless we assume that DD goes to GH after Hagrid leaves with Harry.
But then if DD goes to GH later, why doesn't he apparate instantly to
where Hagrid and Harry are at GH when he gets Hagrid's message.

Report this message

#96: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-19 19:00:12 by ag30476

gjw wrote:
&gt; On 18 Jul 2006 15:08:39 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Let me compare and contrast my proposed reconstruction with the
&gt; &gt;&quot;standard&quot; ones, not like there is a &quot;standard&quot; one but anyway:
&lt;snip&gt;
You did not get the point of this post did you?

Report this message

#97: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 01:48:48 by Sky Rider

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 02:22:09 GMT, gjw &lt;<a href="mailto:gjw&#64;example.net" target="_blank">gjw&#64;example.net</a>&gt; looked at Ron
with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:59:04 +1000, Sky Rider &lt;<a href="mailto:home&#64;therange.com" target="_blank">home&#64;therange.com</a>&gt;
&gt;wrote:
&gt;&gt;On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:57:51 GMT, gjw &lt;<a href="mailto:gjw&#64;example.net" target="_blank">gjw&#64;example.net</a>&gt; looked at Ron
&gt;&gt;with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;&gt;&gt;On 17 Jul 2006 23:10:50 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;&gt;&gt;Once again, the easiest answer is that Dumbledore didn't send Hagrid
&gt;&gt;&gt;at all. Hagrid was in Godric's Hollow for one reason or another and
&gt;&gt;&gt;discovered the smoking remains of the house and rescued Harry. He
&gt;&gt;&gt;then contacted Dumbledore, who told him to bring the child to Privet
&gt;&gt;&gt;Drive.

&gt;&gt;I don't think Hagrid would have been in Godric's Hollow accidentally.

&gt;&gt;On the current level of information I'd have said the place was
&gt;&gt;somewhat obscurely located in mid-Wales or similar. We know it can't
&gt;&gt;be a 'wizarding village' because Hogsmeade is the only one so there is
&gt;&gt;currently no reason to assume Hagrid (because he stands out so much)
&gt;&gt;would have cause to be in a muggle village unless directed there by
&gt;&gt;Dumbledore.

&gt;It's called &quot;Godric's Hollow&quot;, for pete's sake. Of course there are
&gt;more than your average quota of wizards there. Which provides Hagrid
&gt;with all the reason he needs to be there. But his reason doesn't
&gt;really matter. All that matters is that Hagrid was there at the right
&gt;time because Rowling wanted him to be there at the right time.
&gt;Otherwise, Harry isn't rescued and we have no HP stories...

There is a place called Merlin's Bridge in West Wales... all that
proves is that there is named after Merlin! As for the rest... we're
all trying to find internal consistency in the books as a way of
isolating clues to the last book... since clues are liberally pasted
through the other books there has to be *something* for us to hook
into in the last book :)

&gt;&gt;And to make it even simpler it may be that Dumbledore wasn't sure
&gt;&gt;Voldemort had vanished and *if* Harry *had* been killed then his duty
&gt;&gt;was to protect Neville who would then clearly have been 'the chosen
&gt;&gt;one'.

&gt;&gt;Because he didn't *know* for certain Voldemort was gone and Harry was
&gt;&gt;still alive, he thought it best to send Hagrid to check rather than go
&gt;&gt;himself while he stayed on to guard Neville!!

&gt;Hagrid showed up within minutes, maybe within seconds, of the
&gt;explosion (the Muggle neighbors were just beginning to mill around the
&gt;ruins of the house). Dumbledore would have no reason to think that
&gt;Voldemort had vanished at that point. (And Hagrid wouldn't have been
&gt;able to arrive that quickly, even if he had been sent there the moment
&gt;the house exploded - he can't apparate.)

We don't know *when* Hagrid arrived... we don't *know* that Sirius
wasn't there either. Maybe they met at the ruins of the house and when
Hagrid explained what Dumbledore was suggesting for keeping Harry safe
that Sirius agreed it was for the best because he was going off to
look for Wormtail... and loaned the bike to Hagrid because he wanted
Harry to be safe... tho this isn't a satisfactory explanation in lots
of ways.

The assumptions you make in that paragraph don't hold. Likewise how do
you know he can't apparate?? We know he uses Thestrals in preference
to brooms but this is one more thing we are assuming and don't *know*.
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

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#98: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 01:53:58 by Sky Rider

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 02:58:06 GMT, gjw &lt;<a href="mailto:gjw&#64;example.net" target="_blank">gjw&#64;example.net</a>&gt; looked at Ron
with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;On 18 Jul 2006 15:08:39 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;&gt;*Evidence Against: Hagrid gets to GH after muggles are swarming about
&gt;&gt;and just before Sirius arrives. It then takes 24 hours to get from GH
&gt;&gt;to PD.

&gt;There was an explosion that demolished the house. How many seconds
&gt;(or at most, minutes) do you think it would take for the neighbors to
&gt;come out and see what happened?

Another assumption. How big is GH?? A Hamlet, Village? Town? How do we
know there were houses nearby? The house could have been a manor house
on a large estate for all we know? Or maybe on its own at the end of a
lane... or maybe... well there are lots of other options.

Who says there was a bang? Maybe the house simply collapsed... this is
magic after all :)
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

Report this message

#99: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 02:06:05 by Troels Forchhammer

In message &lt;news:<a href="mailto:hg0rb2t7uctl5b39nv7490leqo6q7jvfh2&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">hg0rb2t7uctl5b39nv7490leqo6q7jvfh2&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt; gjw
&lt;<a href="mailto:gjw&#64;example.net" target="_blank">gjw&#64;example.net</a>&gt; enriched us with:
&gt;
&gt; On 18 Jul 2006 13:35:43 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;

An easy day today, so a last posting . . .

GJW -- I wondered if you would be willing to drop me an e-mail?


&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; I don't really think that Snape was there at GH. I just can't
&gt; completely rule it out.

Exactly. Absence of evidence is not evidence either way, but it does
place a huge burden of proof on the part of anyone trying to claim
anything out of the ordinary.

Snape being present at Godric's Hollow explains nothing, and thus
begins at a disadvantage.

&gt; My guess is that it was just Voldemort and perhaps Wormtail
&gt; leading him there - plus the Potters, of course.
&gt; (The one advantage to having Wormtail present is that it allows
&gt; him to recover Voldemort's wand.)

We do need something or someone to do that, and since it turns up next
time in Albania when Wormtail arrives there, and since Wormtail is even
allowed to use it . . .

&gt;&gt; Except where Harry is hiding. You have to come up with a strangely
&gt;&gt; worded secret which does not protect Harry's hiding place in case
&gt;&gt; his parents and or LV is destroyed.
&gt;
&gt; I didn't come up with it. Rowling describes the secret as &quot;the
&gt; location of a family in hiding&quot;.

Something along the lines of &quot;The hiding-place of the Potter family may
be found at the Rose Cottage, Godric's Hollow.&quot; (the name of the house
is invented for this occasion).

That would certainly suffice to explain every observed effect of the
Charm.

&gt; Once there is no longer a family in hiding, no longer an intact
&gt; hiding place, and no longer the enemy that was stalking them,
&gt; there is no secret.

Exactly.

&gt; It's the only way of defining it that fits the facts. The charm
&gt; is clearly not in effect when Hagrid arrives at Godric's Hollow,
&gt; or else he wouldn't have been able to see the Potters.

That is the way I see it as well, though I think it is possible to
construct a consistent scenario that allows the Charm to still be in
effect.

Peter Pettigrew tells the secret to Sirius -- there is no problem
there: Sirius was to have been the actual Secret-Keeper, and would
probably insist on being told so that he could visit the Potters if
necessary.

Peter Pettigrew also writes an unsigned note with a sentence revealing
the secret (along the lines of the sentence above), but does not sign
the paper, and does not add any spells to make the paper self-destruct.
This note is given to Sirius for handing on to Dumbledore, preserving
the illusion that it is Sirius who reveals the secret.

Dumbledore then lets Hagrid read the secret before sending him to
Godric's Hollow (whether before or after the attack).

As I said, I don't think that it is very likely that it happened that
way, but it is still, IMO, possible without resorting to inventing new
magical effects or abilities.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; We are clearly talking about an absolutely iron-clad secret here.

That's the whole purpose of the thing . . .

&gt; There can be no loopholes.

Depending on what you mean by 'loopholes'. If one of the Potters had
been caught, he or she would have been unable to reveal the secret,
even under veritaserum, but an intelligent person questioning them
might learn enough to guess that they were hiding in the Potters' house
in Godric's Hollow, *but**that**would**not**help**them*! Even if they
/knew/ that the Potters were hiding in that precise house, they would
have been unable to actually enter or even see the house until they had
been told the secret.

The same would apply to the Black house. If Narcissa and Lucius didn't,
after speaking with Kreacher during the OotP Christmas, guess that the
old Black house was not only Sirius' hiding place, but also the
headquarters (or at least a gathering place) for the Order of the
Phoenix, then they were significantly more stupid than I credit them
for. But the guess wouldn't help them -- not unless Dumbledore told
them the secret would they be able to see the house.

&gt; Either the charm was in place or it was not. If it was, Hagrid
&gt; wouldn't have been able to find Harry. So obviously, it was not.

Unless, of course, Hagrid had been 'told' the secret, in which case
there is still no use for resorting to exotic magical inventions . . .

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; They may talk about there being a HQ, but they don't know where it
&gt; is. Godric's Hollow is specifically mentioned by name as the
&gt; Potter's hiding place. Not much of a secret if everyone knows
&gt; where it is.

Well, I'd like to have your opinion on what I say above regarding the
nature of the Fidelius Charm. The key, as I see it, is in the
description of what happened in OotP when Harry was told the secret of
the Headquarters, and in the description Flitwick gives in PoA-10 'The
Marauder's Map':

As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who
could search the village where Lily and James were staying
for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose
pressed against their sitting-room window!'

The implication is that he actually /could/ have pressed his nose
against their sitting-room window, and there was definitely nothing to
stop him from searching Godric's Hollow.

If he could press his nose against their sitting-room window, then the
Charm in Godric's Hollow did work differently than in Grimmauld Place,
where he would not have been able to find a window (or a house) to
press his nose against.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;&gt; See, this are YOUR assumptions.

And none of them resorts to claiming fantastic, undocumented abilities
of any creaturs or other kinds of invention. All of it relies on
documentable effects.

&gt;&gt; 1) Hagrid is near GH coincidentally even though he cannot know
&gt;&gt; that the Potters are there because noone can even say &quot;the
&gt;&gt; Potter's are hiding at GH&quot;

Of course he can know. &quot;Go to Godric's Hollow and have a look around,
checking that nothing happens to the Potters.&quot;

Just as Narcissa might have told some other Death Eater to go to
Grimmauld Place and watch out for any members of the Order of the
Phoenix.

It seems a fundamental aspect of Rowling's magic, that no magic is
infallible, and that would apply also to the Fidelius Charm.
&lt;<a href="http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=105" target="_blank">http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=105</a>&gt;

In every sort of magic, there is a weakness, but that relies on the
cleverness of the opposite side, not some Deux ex Machina magical
ability (note how rarely such abilities have played a major role --
with GoF as the spectacular exception).

&gt; 1.) Someone had to find baby Harry and rescue him
[...]

The descriptions furthermore require that Hagrid is on the scene very
shortly after the rebounding curse. This can be achieved either by
Hagrid being already nearby, or by assuming that Dumbledore has placed
some other warning system to warn him, and then he sends off Hagrid by
some magical means (Floo, Portkey, Side-along Apparition, whatever).

&gt;&gt; 2) The backfire cursed breaks the FC or the FC breaks when
&gt;&gt; certain conditions are met (Harry's parents die and LV
&gt;&gt; is nearly destroyed).

Not quite right. The Fidelius Charm isn't broken at all -- but the
secret it protected has ceased to exist. Since the secret doesn't
exist, there is nothing for the Fidelius Charm to protect, and hence it
cannot have any effect. That is a simple application of deduction.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; That is clearly demonstrable by the fact that the Potters were now
&gt; visible to Hagrid. If Hagrid can see them, the FC is broken.

Unless Hagrid has been told the secret (which I agree is rather
unlikely).

&gt;&gt; 3) Hagrid sees something when the curse backfires, informs DD of
&gt;&gt; what he finds.
&gt;
&gt; If Hagrid (or any one of Dumbledore's supporters) is in Godric's
&gt; Hollow

Or any kind of magical warning system -- he might even have had some
kind of system akin to Mrs Weasley's clock to show him when the Chosen
One was in deadly peril.

The point is that we can imagine dozens of ways for Dumbledore to know,
even before the attack, but too late to react to save the Potters, what
was going on.

[...]
&gt; they would certainly inform Dumbledore that the Potters had been
&gt; killed.

Naturally.

&gt;&gt; 4) DD then communicates back to Hagrid to take the baby to PD
&gt;&gt; BEFORE DD goes to GH himself.

Don't shout -- that you fail to grasp the fact doesn't change it.

&gt; That is indeed the way Rowling wrote it. There is no mention of
&gt; Dumbledore going to Godric's Hollow. Instead, he instructed
&gt; Hagrid to bring the baby to him on Privet Drive. If you don't
&gt; like the way the story was told, complain to JKR.

In particular Dumbledore was never mentioned in the connection of
Hagrid meeting Sirius as he would surely have been had he been there
(unless Rowling decides to change that fact retroactively). Dumbledore
may have been in Godric's Hollow later in the day, but still before he
arrived in Little Whinging (though we have no way of knowing that, I,
/personally/, think that it would be the natural way of things).

Hagrid found Harry very shortly after the killing curse rebounded,
ruining the house, and he already had instructions from Dumbledore to
take care of Harry (enough to insist to keep Harry from his godfather).

It is extremely unlikely that Dumbledore would have had time to visit
Godric's Hollow before Sirius got there (except, perhaps, to drop off
Hagrid before hurrying on to do what else had to be done), so the only
solution is indeed that Dumbledore told Hagrid to take Harry and bring
him to the Dursleys the following evening at midnight before he himself
(Dumbledore) had time to investigate the scene. That is not an
assumption, but the only story that fits the facts.

&gt;&gt; Compare with my assumptions. 1) The FC works like 12 Grimmauld

Did you change your description of how it worked? The description you
gave earlier (that the location of Godric's Hollow was the secret) is
/not/ how it worked at the Headquarters.

&gt;&gt; but (originally) only James, Lilly, Sirius and Pettigrew are in
&gt;&gt; on the secret (we then know that Pettigrew tells LV).
&gt;
&gt; So far, so good.

Most likely, yes.

&gt;&gt; 2) DD has a spy, a magical exception (Fawkes), in GH That
&gt;&gt; bypasses the FC.
&gt;
&gt; Another huge leap.

That is fitting the facts to the hypothesis rather than rejecting the
the hypothesis for not fitting the facts. It's what the scientists,
with a certain amount of disdain, sneeringly calls an 'ad Hoc
assumption of the worst kind'.

&gt; Not only do we not know that he had a spy at Godric's Hollow, but
&gt; we don't know that Fawkes was there, we don't know that Fawkes is
&gt; capable of overcoming the Fidelius Charm, and we certainly don't
&gt; know that he could tell Dumbledore anything about it.

Putting any kind of spy or warning system in Godric's Hollow to warn
Dumbledore is an assumption. It is an assumption that arise because we
cannot find any other way of explaining how he came to know about the
attack so quickly as he did (enough to have instructed the first man on
the scene, Hagrid, to take care of Harry).

Trying to put a name to the spy or warning system is just to pile a
needless complications and extra assumptions on top of the previous
assumption -- and this time without the benefit of explaining something
unknown.

Furthermore fantacising that this spy would have some fantastic magical
ability that is hitherto unrevealed is merely fan-fiction. It has no
basis in the books.

Assuming, however, that Fawkes could have warned Dumbledore quickly
enough if he were at the place is fair -- we do see Fawkes warning
Dumbledore, Harry and McGonagall about the approaching Umbridge in
OotP.

&gt; That is a wild assumption at best.

You're too kind . . .

&gt;&gt; 3) DD has a means, a magical exception (Fawkes or a Thestral)
&gt;&gt; that bypasses the FC. He shares this means with Hagrid and
&gt;&gt; that's how Hagrid gets to GH.
&gt;
&gt; That doesn't follow either. Even if Fawkes could somehow bypass
&gt; the Fidelius Charm and go to Godric's Hollow himself, even if he
&gt; could lead Hagrid to the house, Hagrid would still be unable to
&gt; see the Potters there if the charm hadn't been broken.

And neither Fawkes or the thestrals could have got Hagrid there in
time. It would have had to be Hagrid who took the creature by some
other kind of magical transport (though possibly Fawkes could have
teleported himself to Godric's Hollow the way he teleports into the
Chamber of Secrets, but he couldn't take passengers that way as we see
when they leave the Chamber).

&gt;&gt; Your assumptions need a convieniently placed Hagrid to make the
&gt;&gt; reconstruction work.
&gt;
&gt; One wizard being in Godric's Hollow is not all that convenient.

Hagrid or whatever -- something or someone installed in Godric's Hollow
to warn Dumbledore within seconds of the attack.

&gt;&gt; Plus they need a magical exception to the normally absolutely
&gt;&gt; unbreakable FC.
&gt;
&gt; It's not an exception. It is simply how the charm finally ends -
&gt; when the secret ceases to be a secret.

[The Fidelius Charm is an 'immensly complex spell']
'involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a
single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the
chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth
impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper
chooses to divulge it.
[PoA-10, 'The Marauder's Map]

If there is no longer any secret, then it cannot be magically
concealed, and, logically, the whole things collapses.

&gt;&gt; My assumptions only require that DD has magical exceptions to
&gt;&gt; bypass the FC.
&gt;
&gt; No, your assumptions require

1) Dumbledore had a spy or warning system in Godric's Hollow

2a) That is a spy
2b) The spy is Fawkes

3)
&gt; Fawkes to be able to defy the FC.
(This is something wholly new -- a new kind of magical ability for the
Phoenix that has never been even hinted at)

4) The spy (Fawkes) warned Dumbledore

5) Dumbledore got hold of Hagrid and instructs him

6) Hagrid had a means of transport to take him instantly, or nearly
instantly, to Godric's Hollow

7)
&gt; Fawkes could then lead Hagrid to GC.
(I'm going to let this stand, despite 6 above, as the two cannot
possibly be the same)

8) The Fidelius Charm could persist after the secret was void

9)
&gt; Hagrid could then defy the FC and see the Potters.
(another out-of-the-blue invention that is even contradicted by
everything we know about the Fidelius Charm)

That's a total of nine assumptions, one of which, 3), is /very/ tenuous
and another of which, 9), is contradicted by canon.

The alternative scenario presents:

A) Dumbledore had a spy or warning system in Godric's Hollow

B) This warned Dumbledore

C) Dumbledore got hold of Hagrid and instructs him

D) Hagrid had a means of transport to take him instantly, or nearly
instantly, to Godric's Hollow
*OR*
D1) Dumbledore had a spy
D2) The spy was Hagrid

E) The Fidelius Charm could not persist after the secret was void


That is a total of five assumptions, four of which are mere repetitions
from the longer list (but these are generally so unproblematic that I
guess they're hardly worth being called assumptions -- in particular C
is based on canon).

E) is the only one that differs, and though I'm sure that we could
argue back and forth on that, I am, in the complete absence of
evidence, willing to consider, for the sake of this argument, either
way as equally controversial.

That still leaves four extra assumptions adding not only complexity,
but also highly doubtful speculations to the resulting hypothesis.

For what it's worth, the idea involving Hagrid having been told about
the Fidelius Charm would add several assumptions:

I) Sirius was told the secret
II) Peter wrote it down on a piece of paper
III) Dumbledore somehow got that paper
IV) Dumbledore showed the paper to Hagrid

And of course it would also rely on 8) from the first list.

This adds unnecessary complexity for such a hypothesis, but at least it
doesn't assume the existence of hitherto unseen magic effects or
contradict canon in any way -- it relies completely on established
practices.

&gt; It's much simpler (and far more likely) to assume that Hagrid
&gt; simply was the first one there after the charm disappeared.

Indeed it is.

&gt; I was simply mentioning some of the various methods of magical
&gt; communication available in the books... (there is also the
&gt; patronus communication, but I suspect that is probably beyond
&gt; Hagrid's prowess.) On the other hand, I suspect that the &quot;head in
&gt; the fireplace&quot; bit is simply a means of using flue powder,
&gt; something Hagrid could probably manage. But an owl is the least
&gt; complicated choice.

An owl would be too slow, but both two-way mirrors and floo networking
would be available to Hagrid as he would not have to actually do any
magic himself. All in all getting the information from Godric's Hollow
to Dumbledore and from there the instructions to Hagrid is not a
problem. The OP has to assume some kind of fast communication as well
(though I'm not sure they realise that), so it's rather foolish to
complain about it.

&gt;&gt; No we do not have evidence that Hagrid, Fawkes or AYNYONE was near
&gt;&gt; GH when the cursed backfired. The text only tells us the James,
&gt;&gt; Lilly, Harry, Pettigrew and LV were there.

Not even Pettigrew.

&gt;&gt; The rest is deduction.

Not really.

Voldemort's wand got from Godric's Hollow to Albania. From there we
/deduce/ that most likely[*] someone was there with him to pick it up.
That it was Wormtail is speculation.

We also know that information about the deaths of James and Lily got to
Dumbledore in a matter of seconds. From there we deduce the most
likely[*] presence at the spot of some spy or warning system. The rest
is speculation.

[*] Most likely because in both cases Rowling may have something
unexpected up her sleeve -- wands that magically return to their owner
(Thor's hammer, anyone?) or James' ghost appearing before Dumbledore
(both /very/ unlikely, IMO).

[...]
&gt; Unless you want to argue that he got there magically (e.g.
&gt; apparation), it's apparent that Hagrid was in the general
&gt; area when Voldemort attacked.

Well, either-or. I don't think it's particularly important, and I doubt
that it'll ever prove important for the story.

The exact events leading up to killing curse rebounding will possibly
be important -- in particular Voldemort's reluctance to kill Lily (much
as I detest the idea, I have to say that it seems to me incresingly
likely that Rowling might go for a 'Snape loved Lily' solution).

But the aftermath, Hagrid rescuing Harry, Dumbledore arranging for
Harry's safety etc. all that is explained in sufficient detail in the
books as they stand, and the further details are very unlikely to be
important for the story.

&gt;&gt; And all assumptions that SOMEONE is near GH start from the fact
&gt;&gt; the DD knows too much by the time of Privet Drive.
&gt;
&gt; My assumptions about that night are only what the story tells us:
&gt; that Hagrid was there to rescue Harry from the destroyed house,
&gt; and that Dumbledore and Hagrid had spoken about later bringing
&gt; Harry to Privet Drive.

I suppose there's a difference between the assumptions necessary for
seeking an explanation and forgoing that need by not seeking an
explanation.

What you list is, by the way, not assumptions, but the facts of the
case ;-)

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; Never ignore the simple needs of the writer. This is fiction,
&gt; after all, and the practical need to tell a story often accounts
&gt; for the otherwise inexplicable parts of a plot.

Very sound advice, yes.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is &lt;t.forch(a)email.dk&gt;

The idea of being *paid* to govern is terribly
middle-class :-)
- Igenlode on AFH-P

Report this message

#100: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 02:12:28 by Sky Rider

On 19 Jul 2006 08:02:27 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> looked at Ron with an
evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;Sky Rider wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;&gt; Clearly we are still missing vital parts of the story.
&gt;As JK intended.

As aggravating as it is, I suppose we'd not all be hooked so
effectively if the story was entirely clear :)

Roll on the last book.. tho I'll be sad when it's all over.
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

Report this message

#101: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 06:20:03 by drusilla

Sky Rider escribió:

&gt; The assumptions you make in that paragraph don't hold. Likewise how do
&gt; you know he can't apparate?? We know he uses Thestrals in preference
&gt; to brooms but this is one more thing we are assuming and don't *know*.


&quot;The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid until
he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose against
the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone.&quot;

(HP &amp; the PS, Diagon Alley)

Disapparition, anybody? Might be...

Report this message

#102: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 07:32:08 by ag30476

Sky Rider wrote:
&gt; Another assumption. How big is GH?? A Hamlet, Village? Town? How do we
&gt; know there were houses nearby? The house could have been a manor house
&gt; on a large estate for all we know? Or maybe on its own at the end of a
&gt; lane... or maybe... well there are lots of other options.
&gt;
&gt; Who says there was a bang? Maybe the house simply collapsed... this is
&gt; magic after all :)
Yes we can assume...assume...assume...to explain one thing you assumed
you need another. The reconstruction is then possible but extremely
complicated.

I'm going after a simple, straightforward story where everything
happens on the main stage with the main actors (the known characters)
with perhaps a few magical twists along the way.

Those who say...this simply follows from that (eg Hagrid picks up Harry
so the FC/secret is no more or Hagrid knew the secret) and then make
one assumption after another to fill in plot holes are going for a
different but plausible reconstruction. One in my IMHO is unnecessarily
complicated and introduces plot elements that have not even been hinted
at in books 1-6 (eg what DD was doing while Hagrd was picking up
Harry).

To my thinking, JK will more likely write a simple, straightforward
backstory with a few magical twists. But it is a matter of taste.

Report this message

#103: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 09:11:51 by ag30476

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
I think in this post some times you respond to what gjw wrote and some
times you respond to what I wrote. But that's OK, it's confusing for me
to keep track of all the arguments and I started this troll.

&gt; Snape being present at Godric's Hollow explains nothing, and thus
&gt; begins at a disadvantage.
I have to agree.

&gt; We do need something or someone to do that, and since it turns up next
&gt; time in Albania when Wormtail arrives there, and since Wormtail is even
&gt; allowed to use it . . .
Yup

&gt; &gt;&gt; Except where Harry is hiding. You have to come up with a strangely
&gt; &gt;&gt; worded secret which does not protect Harry's hiding place in case
&gt; &gt;&gt; his parents and or LV is destroyed.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I didn't come up with it. Rowling describes the secret as &quot;the
&gt; &gt; location of a family in hiding&quot;.
&gt;
&gt; Something along the lines of &quot;The hiding-place of the Potter family may
&gt; be found at the Rose Cottage, Godric's Hollow.&quot; (the name of the house
&gt; is invented for this occasion).
&gt;
&gt; That would certainly suffice to explain every observed effect of the
&gt; Charm.
Yes that could be the secret. Then it would work similar to the secret
at 12 Grimmauld, ie &quot;The HQ of OotP may be found at the 12 Grimmauld,
London.&quot;

&gt; &gt; Once there is no longer a family in hiding, no longer an intact
&gt; &gt; hiding place, and no longer the enemy that was stalking them,
&gt; &gt; there is no secret.
&gt;
&gt; Exactly.
But this is the prob: &quot;The hiding-place of the Potter family may
be found at the Rose Cottage, Godric's Hollow,&quot; must then contain the
hidden clauses &quot;by the Potter family it is meant a grouping of at least
one living parent and the child&quot; and &quot;by hiding place is meant the Rose
Cottage in an undamaged state&quot; and &quot;by hiding is meant hiding from LV,
the enemy of the Potters&quot;. Only then could it be that the FC is broken
once there is no longer a family OR there is not longer a hiding place
OR a need to hide. Aside from being unecassarily long, I think you need
the wizard world equivalent of a lawyer to write &quot;The Potter family,
consisting of Harry Potter and either James Potter or Lilly Potter or
both James Potter and Lilly Potter, can be found hiding at Rose Cottage
in Godric's Hollow until such a time as the direct threat to Harry
Potter's life from Lord Voldemort, the Death Eaters, and any person or
persons acting under the direction of Lord Voldemort or the Death
Eaters cease to exist. In the event that the Rose Cottage sustains
damage to such an extent that a reasonable person would then judge the
Rose Cottage to be an unsuitable hiding place, then this secret will be
null and void.&quot;...whew!

&gt; &gt; It's the only way of defining it that fits the facts. The charm
&gt; &gt; is clearly not in effect when Hagrid arrives at Godric's Hollow,
&gt; &gt; or else he wouldn't have been able to see the Potters.
&gt;
&gt; That is the way I see it as well, though I think it is possible to
&gt; construct a consistent scenario that allows the Charm to still be in
&gt; effect.
&gt;
&gt; Peter Pettigrew tells the secret to Sirius -- there is no problem
&gt; there: Sirius was to have been the actual Secret-Keeper, and would
&gt; probably insist on being told so that he could visit the Potters if
&gt; necessary.
&gt;
&gt; Peter Pettigrew also writes an unsigned note with a sentence revealing
&gt; the secret (along the lines of the sentence above), but does not sign
&gt; the paper, and does not add any spells to make the paper self-destruct.
&gt; This note is given to Sirius for handing on to Dumbledore, preserving
&gt; the illusion that it is Sirius who reveals the secret.
&gt;
&gt; Dumbledore then lets Hagrid read the secret before sending him to
&gt; Godric's Hollow (whether before or after the attack).
&gt;
&gt; As I said, I don't think that it is very likely that it happened that
&gt; way, but it is still, IMO, possible without resorting to inventing new
&gt; magical effects or abilities.
But this requires a very exact and not necessarily likely set of
events. And the reluctance to invent new magical effects is not
something that JK shares. Each book has had a ton of new magical
effects. Often, a magical effect is invented that directly contradicts
a previous absolute.

&gt; &gt; We are clearly talking about an absolutely iron-clad secret here.
&gt;
&gt; That's the whole purpose of the thing . . .
Except she breaks these all the time (no apparition in
Hogwarts/house-elves, no apparition in the ministry/Fawkes, impossible
to survise the AK curse/Fawkes).

&gt; &gt; There can be no loopholes.
&gt;
&gt; Depending on what you mean by 'loopholes'. If one of the Potters had
&gt; been caught, he or she would have been unable to reveal the secret,
&gt; even under veritaserum, but an intelligent person questioning them
&gt; might learn enough to guess that they were hiding in the Potters' house
&gt; in Godric's Hollow, *but**that**would**not**help**them*! Even if they
&gt; /knew/ that the Potters were hiding in that precise house, they would
&gt; have been unable to actually enter or even see the house until they had
&gt; been told the secret.
Yes! Just like 12 Grimmauld.

&gt; The same would apply to the Black house. If Narcissa and Lucius didn't,
&gt; after speaking with Kreacher during the OotP Christmas, guess that the
&gt; old Black house was not only Sirius' hiding place, but also the
&gt; headquarters (or at least a gathering place) for the Order of the
&gt; Phoenix, then they were significantly more stupid than I credit them
&gt; for. But the guess wouldn't help them -- not unless Dumbledore told
&gt; them the secret would they be able to see the house.
Exactly!

&gt; &gt; Either the charm was in place or it was not. If it was, Hagrid
&gt; &gt; wouldn't have been able to find Harry. So obviously, it was not.
&gt;
&gt; Unless, of course, Hagrid had been 'told' the secret, in which case
&gt; there is still no use for resorting to exotic magical inventions . . .
Yes. One way is for Hagrid to be told the secret but then this leads
(IMHO) to plot holes. There is no need to resort to exotic magic but
resorting to exotic magic elimates plot holes and is something JK has
done before without apparently any SOD problems.

&gt; &gt; They may talk about there being a HQ, but they don't know where it
&gt; &gt; is. Godric's Hollow is specifically mentioned by name as the
&gt; &gt; Potter's hiding place. Not much of a secret if everyone knows
&gt; &gt; where it is.
&gt;
&gt; Well, I'd like to have your opinion on what I say above regarding the
&gt; nature of the Fidelius Charm. The key, as I see it, is in the
&gt; description of what happened in OotP when Harry was told the secret of
&gt; the Headquarters, and in the description Flitwick gives in PoA-10 'The
&gt; Marauder's Map':
&gt;
&gt; As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who
&gt; could search the village where Lily and James were staying
&gt; for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose
&gt; pressed against their sitting-room window!'
&gt;
&gt; The implication is that he actually /could/ have pressed his nose
&gt; against their sitting-room window, and there was definitely nothing to
&gt; stop him from searching Godric's Hollow.

&gt; If he could press his nose against their sitting-room window, then the
&gt; Charm in Godric's Hollow did work differently than in Grimmauld Place,
&gt; where he would not have been able to find a window (or a house) to
&gt; press his nose against.
I'm with 100%.

&gt; &gt;&gt; See, this are YOUR assumptions.
&gt;
&gt; And none of them resorts to claiming fantastic, undocumented abilities
&gt; of any creaturs or other kinds of invention. All of it relies on
&gt; documentable effects.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; 1) Hagrid is near GH coincidentally even though he cannot know
&gt; &gt;&gt; that the Potters are there because noone can even say &quot;the
&gt; &gt;&gt; Potter's are hiding at GH&quot;
&gt;
&gt; Of course he can know. &quot;Go to Godric's Hollow and have a look around,
&gt; checking that nothing happens to the Potters.&quot;
Um...I think here you are actually responding to me not to gjw. And
here I was spelling out gjw's assumptions. Under his assumptions,
Hagrid is in GH but not there to check on the Potters (because he can't
because of the way that gjw thinks the FC works at GH).

&gt; Just as Narcissa might have told some other Death Eater to go to
&gt; Grimmauld Place and watch out for any members of the Order of the
&gt; Phoenix.
&gt;
&gt; It seems a fundamental aspect of Rowling's magic, that no magic is
&gt; infallible, and that would apply also to the Fidelius Charm.
&gt; &lt;<a href="http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=105" target="_blank">http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=105</a>&gt;
&gt;
&gt; In every sort of magic, there is a weakness, but that relies on the
&gt; cleverness of the opposite side, not some Deux ex Machina magical
&gt; ability (note how rarely such abilities have played a major role --
&gt; with GoF as the spectacular exception).
Actually exceptions played a major role in each book.

Book Absolute Exception
---- ----------------------------- -----------------------------
1 AK curse cannot be survived Mother sacrifices herself
2 No apparation in Hogwarts A house-elf
3 Azkaban is escape proof Sirius Black
The map shows all persons Time-travellers
4 AK curse cannot be survived Prior Incantato
5 AK curse cannot be survived Phoenix swallows AK curse
No apparation in the Ministry A phoenix
6 No apparation in Hogwarts Vanishing cabinet
*Later we learn Barty Crouch Jr. also escaped.

It's actually a wonder why DD considered Hogwarts so safe or why
Azkaban is describe as escape proof. In fact, it's hard to believe that
any magical absolute in the HP world does not have a deus-ex-machina
escape clause. Of course, you have to be clever or talented to find it.

&gt;
&gt; &gt; 1.) Someone had to find baby Harry and rescue him
&gt; [...]
&gt;
&gt; The descriptions furthermore require that Hagrid is on the scene very
&gt; shortly after the rebounding curse. This can be achieved either by
&gt; Hagrid being already nearby, or by assuming that Dumbledore has placed
&gt; some other warning system to warn him, and then he sends off Hagrid by
&gt; some magical means (Floo, Portkey, Side-along Apparition, whatever).
Yes but if (A) Hagrid is nearby why is Hagrid the lookout and not in
the house. Hagrid is certainly a good bodyguard but he is not the most
observant person. And why does Hagrid not even have the slightest guilt
about being in GH but not being able to do anything to stop LV? We know
that Hagrid berates himself for not stopping Sirius when he had baby
Harry in his arms and had no knowledge that Sirius was (falsely) the
betrayer at the time they met.

If (B) DD sends Hagrid by a quick means to GH, then we have to ask why
DD did not go by the same quick means himself? We have to suppose that
off-stage, never mentioned in books 1-6, there was a dire emergency
that DD had to takje care off that was of the same or equal importance
to saving Harry.

You would rather suppose that there are plot reasons for either (A)
Hagrid being nearby or (B) DD not going to GH himself to save Harry.

I would rather suppose that the FC is still in effect and DD cannot go
except by this wonderful, exciting, new but totally plausible *MAGICAL*
means (emphasis not shout).

It's a matter of taste.

&gt; &gt;&gt; 2) The backfire cursed breaks the FC or the FC breaks when
&gt; &gt;&gt; certain conditions are met (Harry's parents die and LV
&gt; &gt;&gt; is nearly destroyed).
&gt;
&gt; Not quite right. The Fidelius Charm isn't broken at all -- but the
&gt; secret it protected has ceased to exist.
Same diff. But here again I was spelling out gjw's assumptions. OK so I
should have said gjw must assume that &quot;the backfire cursed breaks the
FC or the FC breaks when certain conditions are met or the secret
ceases to exist when certain conditions are met&quot;.


&gt; Since the secret doesn't
&gt; exist, there is nothing for the Fidelius Charm to protect, and hence it
&gt; cannot have any effect. That is a simple application of deduction.
No so simple. See above. The secret you stated above is 1 sentence. And
that 1 sentence does not imply all you imply. It is not simple to
deduction to say that after Harry's parents die (but not Harry), the
Potter family ceases to exist. It is not simple deduction to say the
hiding means hiding while the threat of LV exists. And it is not a
simple deduction to say that the hiding ceases to exist when it is
&quot;nearly destroyed&quot;. (What is left, ruins, walls, a ceiling? When does
the house cease to be? When the rood is gone? All four walls? What if a
pile of rubble is left? Is that a proper hiding spot? Etc.)

&gt; &gt; That is clearly demonstrable by the fact that the Potters were now
&gt; &gt; visible to Hagrid. If Hagrid can see them, the FC is broken.
&gt;
&gt; Unless Hagrid has been told the secret (which I agree is rather
&gt; unlikely).
Or unless...I won't say it again.

&gt; &gt;&gt; 3) Hagrid sees something when the curse backfires, informs DD of
&gt; &gt;&gt; what he finds.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; If Hagrid (or any one of Dumbledore's supporters) is in Godric's
&gt; &gt; Hollow
&gt;
&gt; Or any kind of magical warning system -- he might even have had some
&gt; kind of system akin to Mrs Weasley's clock to show him when the Chosen
&gt; One was in deadly peril.
&gt;
&gt; The point is that we can imagine dozens of ways for Dumbledore to know,
&gt; even before the attack, but too late to react to save the Potters, what
&gt; was going on.
Yes we can imagine any number of ways...but this is hand-waving.
Unfortunately it brings in complications. For one, if DD can have a way
of knowing LV is attacking but can't react in time, why have an alarm
system at all?

But the main point is the here again I was was spelling out gjw's
assumption. It was his assumption that Hagrid just happens to be at GH,
coincidentally, not guarding the Potters. Hagrid then sees something at
the hiding place (like the muggles do). Hagrid then goes over and finds
Harry and then messages DD (or messages DD and then finds Harry). These
are in fact, gjw's assumptions in his reconstruction.

&gt; &gt;&gt; 4) DD then communicates back to Hagrid to take the baby to PD
&gt; &gt;&gt; BEFORE DD goes to GH himself.
&gt;
&gt; Don't shout -- that you fail to grasp the fact doesn't change it.
You fail to grasp what I am saying and whose assumptions I am talking
about here. I'm emphasizing that under gjw's assumptions (#4) not mine
that at this point DD tells Hagrid to take the baby to PD. Thus, DD,
with the help of owls, uses Hagrid as a proxy to perform the most
important action that night (saving Harry from GH) while he does
something else. It would simply have been easier for DD to go to GH
himself for a few minutes. This is the point that you and gjw are
ignoring: if the FC is broken/secret is no more and DD can apparate
to/out of GH quickly the he should. It's that simple. To say that he
doesn't means that he was doing something more important. Yet in this
reconstruction of gjw, DD is doing something more important while
Hagrid is at GH and at the same time DD is in two-way communication
with Hagrid regarding what to do with the baby. And in books 1-6, we
have not been given even the slightest inkling of what DD was doing
that was more important. Do you understand how huge a plot hole this
is?

&gt; &gt; That is indeed the way Rowling wrote it. There is no mention of
&gt; &gt; Dumbledore going to Godric's Hollow. Instead, he instructed
&gt; &gt; Hagrid to bring the baby to him on Privet Drive. If you don't
&gt; &gt; like the way the story was told, complain to JKR.
&gt;
&gt; In particular Dumbledore was never mentioned in the connection of
&gt; Hagrid meeting Sirius as he would surely have been had he been there
&gt; (unless Rowling decides to change that fact retroactively). Dumbledore
&gt; may have been in Godric's Hollow later in the day, but still before he
&gt; arrived in Little Whinging (though we have no way of knowing that, I,
&gt; /personally/, think that it would be the natural way of things).
&gt;
&gt; Hagrid found Harry very shortly after the killing curse rebounded,
&gt; ruining the house, and he already had instructions from Dumbledore to
&gt; take care of Harry (enough to insist to keep Harry from his godfather).
&gt;
&gt; It is extremely unlikely that Dumbledore would have had time to visit
&gt; Godric's Hollow before Sirius got there (except, perhaps, to drop off
&gt; Hagrid before hurrying on to do what else had to be done), so the only
&gt; solution is indeed that Dumbledore told Hagrid to take Harry and bring
&gt; him to the Dursleys the following evening at midnight before he himself
&gt; (Dumbledore) had time to investigate the scene. That is not an
&gt; assumption, but the only story that fits the facts.
I have to again agree with you here 100%.

&gt; &gt;&gt; Compare with my assumptions. 1) The FC works like 12 Grimmauld
&gt;
&gt; Did you change your description of how it worked? The description you
&gt; gave earlier (that the location of Godric's Hollow was the secret) is
&gt; /not/ how it worked at the Headquarters.
Yes I did change. I'm now just simply saying there was a house in GH
guarded by the FC. This is simpler plus I don't have to explain
myself...but I will.

In my original post, I was trying to make as little assumptions as
possible so I said that some location at GH was guarded by the FC. By
this I meant (though this may not have been clear) that the location
could have been a room, the house, the street or the whole town for all
we know. We have seen examples of each guraded by some magical means
(not all FC's): Room of Requirement (hidden until you think of the
specific room), 12 Grimmauld (guarded by an FC), Diagon Alley (hidden
from muggles), Hogwarts (hidden from muggles). But this introduces
confusion (admittedly through my errors in communication). So now I
simply say &quot;the house&quot;.


&gt; &gt;&gt; but (originally) only James, Lilly, Sirius and Pettigrew are in
&gt; &gt;&gt; on the secret (we then know that Pettigrew tells LV).
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; So far, so good.
&gt;
&gt; Most likely, yes.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; 2) DD has a spy, a magical exception (Fawkes), in GH That
&gt; &gt;&gt; bypasses the FC.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Another huge leap.
&gt;
&gt; That is fitting the facts to the hypothesis rather than rejecting the
&gt; the hypothesis for not fitting the facts. It's what the scientists,
&gt; with a certain amount of disdain, sneeringly calls an 'ad Hoc
&gt; assumption of the worst kind'.
LOL. This is not science. It's a game...trying to guess the original
backstory. And that is what we must do because we cannot approach this
scientifically.

The fact is that any reconstruction cannot have a &quot;simple&quot; deduction
from the facts. All reconstuction must involve guesswork. There is no
this follows simply from that.

For ex, suppose you say that the secret is broken follows simply from
the fact the the Potters are dead and the house is nearly destroyed.
Read above and you will see that that is not simply the case. But OK
let's say it is true the thse secret is no more. Then we know that
Hagrid picks up Harry on DD's instructions. So it follows, simply, that
DD had to have some reason for sending Hagrid and not apparating there
in a few seconds himself. To fill this plot hole, you must then assume
that there is something that DD is doing which is more important than
checking on Harry or that something is preventing him. And now you have
done the equivalent to what I have done. You have invented a way
(something more important) to explain your previous deductions (DD
can't go to GH for some reason) which you derived from the text (Hagrid
picked up Harry not DD).

The question is which one is more likely to you/which do you prefer?
You seem to prefer a backstory in which some heretofore unknown
important thing is keeping DD from checking up on Harry at GH. I prefer
a magical twist that explains away these plot holes. And the latter
seems more in keeping with the way JKR would write the backstory IMHO.

&gt; &gt; Not only do we not know that he had a spy at Godric's Hollow, but
&gt; &gt; we don't know that Fawkes was there, we don't know that Fawkes is
&gt; &gt; capable of overcoming the Fidelius Charm, and we certainly don't
&gt; &gt; know that he could tell Dumbledore anything about it.
&gt;
&gt; Putting any kind of spy or warning system in Godric's Hollow to warn
&gt; Dumbledore is an assumption. It is an assumption that arise because we
&gt; cannot find any other way of explaining how he came to know about the
&gt; attack so quickly as he did (enough to have instructed the first man on
&gt; the scene, Hagrid, to take care of Harry).
Again, we agree.

&gt; Trying to put a name to the spy or warning system is just to pile a
&gt; needless complications and extra assumptions on top of the previous
&gt; assumption -- and this time without the benefit of explaining something
&gt; unknown.
But it's part of the game of guessing the backstory...it's like trying
to guess who the killer is in a whodunit.

&gt; Furthermore fantacising that this spy would have some fantastic magical
&gt; ability that is hitherto unrevealed is merely fan-fiction. It has no
&gt; basis in the books.
It has no basis in the books except for character. That is, like you do
in whodunits, you ask why would someone do something. In this case the
question is why would the spy at GH leave Harry behind so that DD has
to instruct Hagrid to pick up Harry.

We could suppose it is Snape but then Snape has to be there but
powerless to prevent the act or warn DD in time. This seems against the
(good) Snape nature. Then Snape has to tell DD and then hide or leave
before Hagrid gets there.

But a magical creature spy has nice properties. A portrait can see and
deliver messages but is not able to transport the baby. A house-elf has
powerful magic such as being able to apparate at Hogwarts but is a
strange creature with strange motivations and there may be a reason why
it can't transport the baby. Finally Fawkes can apparate in warded
placs and survive an AK curse. And he has an advantage that only a dew
other characters in the book have (Hagrid and Snape being the other
two)...namely DD's absolute trust.


&gt; Assuming, however, that Fawkes could have warned Dumbledore quickly
&gt; enough if he were at the place is fair -- we do see Fawkes warning
&gt; Dumbledore, Harry and McGonagall about the approaching Umbridge in
&gt; OotP.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; That is a wild assumption at best.
&gt;
&gt; You're too kind . . .
And what would you call the assumption that DD is off doing something
so important that he cannot spare a few minutes to go to GH and check
on Harry?...but I will kind.

&gt; &gt;&gt; 3) DD has a means, a magical exception (Fawkes or a Thestral)
&gt; &gt;&gt; that bypasses the FC. He shares this means with Hagrid and
&gt; &gt;&gt; that's how Hagrid gets to GH.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; That doesn't follow either. Even if Fawkes could somehow bypass
&gt; &gt; the Fidelius Charm and go to Godric's Hollow himself, even if he
&gt; &gt; could lead Hagrid to the house, Hagrid would still be unable to
&gt; &gt; see the Potters there if the charm hadn't been broken.
&gt;
&gt; And neither Fawkes or the thestrals could have got Hagrid there in
&gt; time.
If you assume that Hagrid got there right away. Funny how that &quot;simple
assumption&quot; is not supported by anything direclty in the text, that is
the time is not explicitly stated. It's not a simple assumption at all
but an assumption dependent on deducing things from very vague
references (muggles were swarming about) and the supposed fact that the
FC/secret is broken.

&gt; It would have had to be Hagrid who took the creature by some
&gt; other kind of magical transport (though possibly Fawkes could have
&gt; teleported himself to Godric's Hollow the way he teleports into the
&gt; Chamber of Secrets, but he couldn't take passengers that way as we see
&gt; when they leave the Chamber).
Again if we assume that Hagrid gets there right away...but we'll have
to wait to see who's guess is right.

&gt; &gt;&gt; Your assumptions need a convieniently placed Hagrid to make the
&gt; &gt;&gt; reconstruction work.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; One wizard being in Godric's Hollow is not all that convenient.
&gt;
&gt; Hagrid or whatever -- something or someone installed in Godric's Hollow
&gt; to warn Dumbledore within seconds of the attack.
I would agree with you. But just to put this series of comments in
context...under gjw's reconstruction, Hagrid is at GH coincidentally
and is able to tell DD what happens and rescue Harry because of this
fortunate coincidence.

&gt; &gt;&gt; Plus they need a magical exception to the normally absolutely
&gt; &gt;&gt; unbreakable FC.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; It's not an exception. It is simply how the charm finally ends -
&gt; &gt; when the secret ceases to be a secret.
&gt;
&gt; [The Fidelius Charm is an 'immensly complex spell']
&gt; 'involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a
&gt; single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the
&gt; chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth
&gt; impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper
&gt; chooses to divulge it.
&gt; [PoA-10, 'The Marauder's Map]
&gt;
&gt; If there is no longer any secret, then it cannot be magically
&gt; concealed, and, logically, the whole things collapses.
See above why it can't simply be that there is no longer any secret to
hide.

&gt; &gt;&gt; My assumptions only require that DD has magical exceptions to
&gt; &gt;&gt; bypass the FC.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; No, your assumptions require
&gt;
&gt; 1) Dumbledore had a spy or warning system in Godric's Hollow
Yup. Same as you.

&gt;
&gt; 2a) That is a spy
&gt; 2b) The spy is Fawkes
Here we differ on this particular. But you make it like it's a big deal

&gt; 3)
&gt; &gt; Fawkes to be able to defy the FC.
&gt; (This is something wholly new -- a new kind of magical ability for the
&gt; Phoenix that has never been even hinted at)
Just like every magical ability that the phoenix has shown. How did DD
introduce Fawkes, &quot;Harry this bird being reborn into flames here is my
basilisk fighting, super-strong flying, apparating even in the
Ministry, AK curse swallowing, mourning song lamenting, phoenix. Oh and
I forgot to mentions his tears can heal.&quot;

&gt; 4) The spy (Fawkes) warned Dumbledore
Er...um...naturally otherwise why have a spy. But you want to nitpick
your own deduction OK.

&gt; 5) Dumbledore got hold of Hagrid and instructs him
Well this is not even an assumption...this is in the text.

&gt; 6) Hagrid had a means of transport to take him instantly, or nearly
&gt; instantly, to Godric's Hollow
No I do not assume this at all...if you had read what I had clearly
written...I said (repeatedly) that DD has a means of transport that is
(relatively) slow compared to apparating. This means is Fawkes or a
Thestral who, because of their super-dupery-Harry-Pottery-magicalness
can bypass the FC (which I assume to be in effect). This means will be
used to fly Harry out of GH to PD. When Sirius arrives, Hagrid chooses
to fly on Sirius bike because it, the bike, is no slower than the means
he meant to use (Fawkes or a Thestral). What could be less clear than
that :)


&gt; 7)
&gt; &gt; Fawkes could then lead Hagrid to GC.
&gt; (I'm going to let this stand, despite 6 above, as the two cannot
&gt; possibly be the same)
How are they not one and the same. 7 is the same as 6. Read it.
Carefully.

&gt; 8) The Fidelius Charm could persist after the secret was void
Correction. You assume the secret is void. It is not necessarily void.
It could be voided of course but when you write what the secret is, you
do not specify the (non-obvious) condictions when it could be voided.
You are the one who brings in this extra assumption (the secret can be
voided). Most people say that either the FC was broken (as gjw does) or
that the FC is still in effect but Hagrid knows the secret.

I'm just saying that the FC is still in effect and that neither Hagrd
nor DD knew the secret. And yes this means that the secret is not
voided in your language.


&gt; 9)
&gt; &gt; Hagrid could then defy the FC and see the Potters.
&gt; (another out-of-the-blue invention that is even contradicted by
&gt; everything we know about the Fidelius Charm)
Not at all. In fact, you and gjw's are making an assumption on the way
magic works in the HP world based in fact on some very unclear text
(&quot;you can press your nose&quot;). In fact, Bellatrix asks Snape at Spinner's
end about the location of the OotP's HQ. Snape says that he cannot
speak the name of the place. So the DE's want to find the OotP HQ. What
idiots, specially that Bellatrix, huh? If they ever find the OotP HQ,
the OotP'ers would be invisible to the DE'ers and would win easily.

&gt; That's a total of nine assumptions, one of which, 3), is /very/ tenuous
&gt; and another of which, 9), is contradicted by canon.
Let's recount

1) Dumbledore had a spy - same as yours
2) The spy is Fawkes - different from yours
3) Fawkes to be able to defy the FC - different from yours
4) The spy (Fawkes) warned Dumbledore - nitpic/same as yours
5) Dumbledore got hold of Hagrid and instructs him - same as yours
6) Hagrid had a means of transport to take him instantly, or nearly
instantly, to Godric's Hollow - wrong this is more like yours.

My assumption is that he has a slow means of transport to GH - which
is different from yours.

7) Fawkes could then lead Hagrid to GC - this is the same as 6
8) The Fidelius Charm could persist after the secret was void - wrong
Mine is the the FC is still in effect - different from yours
9) Hagrid could then defy the FC and see the Potters - wrong my
assumption is that the hiding place is the thing that is hidden like
12 Grimmauld - this
is the same as your assumption - you further assume that if tha FC
is in
effect and someone finds the house (bypassing) the FC, they cannot
still see the Potters


So 1, 4 and 5 are the same as yours. 6 is the same as 7. Now 2, 3, 6,
and 8 are different from yours. 9 is the same as yours except that you
add a further condition on how the FC works. So I only make 4
assumptions that you do not make. And you make 1 assumption that I do
not make. This is what it takes to make my scenario work.

&gt; The alternative scenario presents:
&gt;
&gt; A) Dumbledore had a spy or warning system in Godric's Hollow
&gt;
&gt; B) This warned Dumbledore
&gt;
&gt; C) Dumbledore got hold of Hagrid and instructs him
&gt;
&gt; D) Hagrid had a means of transport to take him instantly, or nearly
&gt; instantly, to Godric's Hollow
&gt; *OR*
&gt; D1) Dumbledore had a spy
&gt; D2) The spy was Hagrid
&gt;
&gt; E) The Fidelius Charm could not persist after the secret was void
&gt;
&gt; That is a total of five assumptions, four of which are mere repetitions
&gt; from the longer list (but these are generally so unproblematic that I
&gt; guess they're hardly worth being called assumptions -- in particular C
&gt; is based on canon).
But you forgot to add the following assumptions:

Why did the spy not pick up Harry?
A1) The spy was either Hagrid positioned outside the hiding spot.
Or A2) The spy was inside the hiding spot but for some reason did not
pick
up Harry.

Why did DD not go to GH with Hagrid to make sure that
C1) DD was off doing something more important or had to do something
more
important than going to GH and checking that Harry was OK.

Why did it take 24 hours for Harry to go from GH to PD?
F1) Hagrid had to fly for 24 hours on a flying bike, approx 1440
miles.
F2) Hagrid did not fly for 24 hours but took Harry to an undisclosed
3rd location.

Now A, B and C are the same as mine. D and E are different. But you
have to add A1 or A2, and C1, and F1 or F2. That's 5 assumptions that I
don't make.

So from the baseline of assumptions that you and I both make, I make 5
assumption that are not part of the baseline (counting our difference
with 9 above). You make 5 explicit and implicit assumptions that are
not part of the baseline.

The real difference is one of taste/style/preference. I prefer the plot
to have few plot holes. I prefer the backstory to introduce no new
major characters or events that have not been mentioned in books 1-6.
But I don't care how many new magical tricks JKR invents in book 7.

You prefer that the backstory follow already deduced (not explicitly
stated) magical events (the FC/secret is void) and work with the ways
that you think magic works (eg the FC charm works the way you say).
That is you would prefer few if any magical tricks (like new powers for
Fawkes). But you would not mind if the plot was expanded (the something
that DD was doing while Harry was being rescued).

&gt; For what it's worth, the idea involving Hagrid having been told about
&gt; the Fidelius Charm would add several assumptions:
&gt;
&gt; I) Sirius was told the secret
&gt; II) Peter wrote it down on a piece of paper
&gt; III) Dumbledore somehow got that paper
&gt; IV) Dumbledore showed the paper to Hagrid
&gt;
&gt; And of course it would also rely on 8) from the first list.
&gt;
&gt; This adds unnecessary complexity for such a hypothesis, but at least it
&gt; doesn't assume the existence of hitherto unseen magic effects or
&gt; contradict canon in any way -- it relies completely on established
&gt; practices.
As I said before...you prefer &quot;unnecessary complexity&quot; to the plot to
new, &quot;unestablished&quot; magical practices.

&gt; &gt; I was simply mentioning some of the various methods of magical
&gt; &gt; communication available in the books... (there is also the
&gt; &gt; patronus communication, but I suspect that is probably beyond
&gt; &gt; Hagrid's prowess.) On the other hand, I suspect that the &quot;head in
&gt; &gt; the fireplace&quot; bit is simply a means of using flue powder,
&gt; &gt; something Hagrid could probably manage. But an owl is the least
&gt; &gt; complicated choice.
&gt;
&gt; An owl would be too slow, but both two-way mirrors and floo networking
&gt; would be available to Hagrid as he would not have to actually do any
&gt; magic himself. All in all getting the information from Godric's Hollow
&gt; to Dumbledore and from there the instructions to Hagrid is not a
&gt; problem.
It may not be a problem for your reconstruction (as you more wisely
assume that if Hagrid is near GH, then he is in a mission).

But it is a problem for gjw...again to put this comments in context gjw
assumes in his reconstruction that Hagrid is in GH accidentally, ie he
is not checking on the Potter's but merely paying GH a visit. Under
such an assumption it is harder to see why he would have a 2-way device
with DD. After all, Hagrid is out for a stroll not on call with the
beeper.

&gt; The OP has to assume some kind of fast communication as well
&gt; (though I'm not sure they realise that), so it's rather foolish to
&gt; complain about it.
I'm not complaining about OP communications. I'm complaining about
Hagrid visiting GH by accident.

&gt; &gt;&gt; No we do not have evidence that Hagrid, Fawkes or AYNYONE was near
&gt; &gt;&gt; GH when the cursed backfired. The text only tells us the James,
&gt; &gt;&gt; Lilly, Harry, Pettigrew and LV were there.
&gt;
&gt; Not even Pettigrew.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; The rest is deduction.
&gt;
&gt; Not really.
This is where you start to argue semantics isn't it.

&gt; Voldemort's wand got from Godric's Hollow to Albania. From there we
&gt; /deduce/ that most likely[*] someone was there with him to pick it up.
&gt; That it was Wormtail is speculation.
&gt;
&gt; We also know that information about the deaths of James and Lily got to
&gt; Dumbledore in a matter of seconds. From there we deduce the most
&gt; likely[*] presence at the spot of some spy or warning system. The rest
&gt; is speculation.
&gt;
&gt; [*] Most likely because in both cases Rowling may have something
&gt; unexpected up her sleeve -- wands that magically return to their owner
&gt; (Thor's hammer, anyone?) or James' ghost appearing before Dumbledore
&gt; (both /very/ unlikely, IMO).
Yup I was right...semantics.

&gt; &gt; Unless you want to argue that he got there magically (e.g.
&gt; &gt; apparation), it's apparent that Hagrid was in the general
&gt; &gt; area when Voldemort attacked.
&gt;
&gt; Well, either-or. I don't think it's particularly important, and I doubt
&gt; that it'll ever prove important for the story.
Well since we are trying to guess the details of the story then I guess
it is important. That is the game...who was where.

&gt; The exact events leading up to killing curse rebounding will possibly
&gt; be important -- in particular Voldemort's reluctance to kill Lily (much
&gt; as I detest the idea, I have to say that it seems to me incresingly
&gt; likely that Rowling might go for a 'Snape loved Lily' solution).
Obviously she wants us to believe that or at least think it but say &quot;No
way&quot;. How that will turn out (Snape loved, Snape did not love, Snape
fries a fish)...can't say at all given what is given IMHO.

&gt; But the aftermath, Hagrid rescuing Harry, Dumbledore arranging for
&gt; Harry's safety etc. all that is explained in sufficient detail in the
&gt; books as they stand, and the further details are very unlikely to be
&gt; important for the story.
I have to disagree. The missing day is a big problem. Where was DD?
Whre was Snape? If there is one clear fact in this discussion is that
you, gjw, I and all the others have different versions of what
happened. So the things that happened that night are not at al clear.

&gt; &gt; Never ignore the simple needs of the writer. This is fiction,
&gt; &gt; after all, and the practical need to tell a story often accounts
&gt; &gt; for the otherwise inexplicable parts of a plot.
&gt;
&gt; Very sound advice, yes.
Sigh...but it's a whodunnit...the story of the crime is written in a
logical sequnce first...then witness points of view are written...then
the aftermath is written...so the readers seem to see a story with
contradictions until the detective reveals all at the end. And JKR has
admitted to writing in this way.

Of course, after 2600 pages, some elements far removed from this
original backstory and witness accounts may be inconsistent.

But the game is to figure out whodunit.

Now ff you want good advice...don't waste so much time on the usenet!

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#104: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 09:15:39 by ag30476

drusilla wrote:
&gt; &quot;The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid until
&gt; he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose against
&gt; the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; (HP &amp; the PS, Diagon Alley)
&gt;
&gt; Disapparition, anybody? Might be...
Could be but...blah blah blah....*yawn*...sleepy...

Anyway point taken. Hagrid may be able to apparate. I'll be sure to
correct my 50 previous posts...in the morning.

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#105: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 12:58:26 by Sky Rider

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 23:20:03 -0500, drusilla &lt;<a href="mailto:me&#64;me.net" target="_blank">me&#64;me.net</a>&gt; looked at Ron
with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;Sky Rider escribió:

&gt;&gt; The assumptions you make in that paragraph don't hold. Likewise how do
&gt;&gt; you know he can't apparate?? We know he uses Thestrals in preference
&gt;&gt; to brooms but this is one more thing we are assuming and don't *know*.

&gt;&quot;The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid until
&gt;he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose against
&gt;the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone.&quot;

&gt;(HP &amp; the PS, Diagon Alley)

&gt;Disapparition, anybody? Might be...

Nice catch :)

That'll mess with a few assumptions eh?? :D
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#106: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 13:02:22 by Sky Rider

On 20 Jul 2006 00:15:39 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> looked at Ron with an
evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;drusilla wrote:

&gt;&gt; &quot;The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid until
&gt;&gt; he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose against
&gt;&gt; the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone.&quot;

&gt;&gt; (HP &amp; the PS, Diagon Alley)

&gt;&gt; Disapparition, anybody? Might be...

&gt;Could be but...blah blah blah....*yawn*...sleepy...

&gt;Anyway point taken. Hagrid may be able to apparate. I'll be sure to
&gt;correct my 50 previous posts...in the morning.

dontcha just *hate* it when that happens?? :)
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#107: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:05:56 by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Tamar RE wrote:

&gt; Sky Rider wrote:

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; A thestral could probably defend itself rather well, even better
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; than a hippogriff can.

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Where would you get that info from?? I'd have thought the hippogriff
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; was far better armed than a Thestral... not that I've ever seen one
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of course (nor wish to thanks) :)

&gt;&gt;&gt; Thestrals are meat-eaters and have sharp teeth. Hooves can be sharp,
&gt;&gt;&gt; too. Hagrid is the only person known to have tamed thestrals. They can
&gt;&gt;&gt; fly as fast as a magical steam train for hours and they don't seem to
&gt;&gt;&gt; get tired; I think hippogriffs can get tired. I don't know whether
&gt;&gt;&gt; hippogriff wings are less efficient when wet, but I think the leathery
&gt;&gt;&gt; wings of thestrals probably are not affected by bad weather. Overall,
&gt;&gt;&gt; I'd say thestrals have some potential advantages in some situation.

&gt;&gt; Against the savage beak of that eagle head?? And those claws?? The way
&gt;&gt; he snaffled sown those ferrets in the film was an indication of how
&gt;&gt; nasty he could be... and of course he didn't hesitate to attack a
&gt;&gt; werewolf!

&gt; Thestral teeth can rip and tear large chunks of raw beef, quite rapidly.
&gt; The beak only has one pair of points. And the thestral has the advantage
&gt; of being invisible. We don't know whether hippogriffs can see thestrals.
&gt; If hippogriffs tire and thestrals don't, then a thestral, or a group of
&gt; them, could tire out and beat a hippogriff even if it could see them.

&gt;&gt; Even *Hagrid* was wary of letting the kids near Buckbeak, which speaks
&gt;&gt; volumes by itself... but he let them near the Thestrals without
&gt;&gt; comment... even tho they are invisible.

&gt; Good point. But the kids weren't attacking the thestrals. The comparison
&gt; is not about general nastiness but about effectiveness of response to
&gt; active attack.

Absolutely.


&gt;&gt; Can you imagine a team of Buckbeaks pulling carriages in any docile
&gt;&gt; fashion??

&gt; Hippogriffs are proud, which can be a weakness.

Indeed.


&gt;&gt; I think the real difference is between a hunter and scavenger and the
&gt;&gt; hippogriff is a hunter.... a bit like the difference between an eagle
&gt;&gt; and a vulture :)

&gt; Egyptian vultures are hunters. :-)

Predators only have to defend themselves against their prey, whose
primary defence is to hide or run away. Okay some can be dangerous
if cornered, but then the predator can back off a bit and wait.

However, scavengers must constantly defend their meals against the
hungry attacks of other scavengers, all equally as well-armed.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
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#108: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:07:23 by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

AG 30476 wrote:

&gt; Richard is here supposing that

Actually, 'Richard Eney' is a woman named Tamar. ^_^

By the way, your posts would be much clearer to read in black &amp; white
if you left a blank line between the quoted text &amp; your response.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
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#109: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:08:50 by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

AG 30476 wrote:

&gt; Sky Rider wrote:

&gt;&gt; And to make it even simpler it may be that Dumbledore wasn't sure
&gt;&gt; Voldemort had vanished and *if* Harry *had* been killed then his duty
&gt;&gt; was to protect Neville who would then clearly have been 'the chosen
&gt;&gt; one'.

&gt;&gt; Because he didn't *know* for certain Voldemort was gone and Harry was
&gt;&gt; still alive, he thought it best to send Hagrid to check rather than go
&gt;&gt; himself while he stayed on to guard Neville!!

&gt;&gt; Makes sense to me anyway :)

&gt; That is a very good possibility for the &quot;more (or equally) important&quot;
&gt; thing that DD had to do: that DD is off guarding Neville while Hagrid
&gt; rescues Harry.

I like this idea, AG 30476.


&gt; But like I said, it jusn't doesn't feel right to me in that there isn't
&gt; enough development of this idea in the books. The books don't seem to
&gt; emphasize the character's guilt about choosing to protect the wrong
&gt; child but rather the misplaced trust that the character's had: James
&gt; and Sirius trusted Pettigrew not Lupin, DD trusts Snape but Harry
&gt; doesn't trust Snape, etc.

When Hagrid arrived with 15-month-old Harry, shouldn't Dumbledore have
been more shocked to see the cut on the boy's head? That would've been
the moment that he realised Voldemort had marked him as his equal.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
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#110: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:10:37 by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

AG 30476 wrote:

&gt; You have made a ton of assumptions and deductions from the scant info
&gt; given in book 1 about the nature of the FC at GH. yet you have ignored
&gt; the 2nd example of a GH in book 5 when she spells out exactly

Don't you mean a FC in book 5?


&gt; Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. See my previous. You can say &quot;the Potters are
&gt; hiding in the village of FC&quot; with the FC in place.

Don't you mean the village of GH?


I know it's easier to type two letters instead of thirteen, but doing so
makes ideas harder to follow, for you as well as your readers. And....

&gt; that happens all the time without paradoxically breaking SOD.

&gt; ability as a writer to build up SOD in the magic of her HP world.

&gt; when it does not affect SOD and the central backstory affects SOD.

&gt; mention them inadverdantly and cause incosistencies or SOD issues.

.....what on Earth is this SOD thing supposed to mean?


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
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#111: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:12:02 by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Drusilla wrote:

&gt; Also, we don't know yet WHERE is located Godric's Hollow. Don't count
&gt; the Bristol clue because if Hagrid was flying over the country, we don't
&gt; know what way he took so he couldn't be seen.

Even so, the best bet is to extend a line from Little Whinging in Surrey
through Bristol, giving us a starting point in South Wales.


&gt; But if this village was named after a Wizard, I wouldn't be surprised
&gt; the place is near Hogwarts or Hogsmeade.

I would be very surprised if it was nearby.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
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#112: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:22:35 by ag30476

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
&gt; Actually, 'Richard Eney' is a woman named Tamar. ^_^

(=F3 =F4)...interesting

&gt; By the way, your posts would be much clearer to read in black &amp; white
&gt; if you left a blank line between the quoted text &amp; your response.

Point taken...I'm just Googling...but I'll be more considerate from
here on.

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#113: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:28:05 by ag30476

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
&gt; &gt; That is a very good possibility for the &quot;more (or equally) important&quot;
&gt; &gt; thing that DD had to do: that DD is off guarding Neville while Hagrid
&gt; &gt; rescues Harry.
&gt;
&gt; I like this idea, AG 30476.

Wish I could take credit but nothing is new under the Internet sun.

&gt; When Hagrid arrived with 15-month-old Harry, shouldn't Dumbledore have
&gt; been more shocked to see the cut on the boy's head? That would've been
&gt; the moment that he realised Voldemort had marked him as his equal.

Yeah that's just another one of thosee things that make many people
suspect that a witness at Godric's Hollow told Dumbledore what
happened. DD just seems a bit too knowledgeable and calm by the time of
Privet Drive.

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#114: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:35:29 by Benjamin Esham

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

&gt; AG 30476 wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; [confusing &quot;FC&quot; with &quot;GH&quot;]
&gt;
&gt; I know it's easier to type two letters instead of thirteen, but doing so
&gt; makes ideas harder to follow, for you as well as your readers.

I'm pretty much used to the rampant use of acronyms here, but this thread
really challenged me. I'm glad to hear it wasn't just me :-)

&gt; ....what on Earth is this SOD thing supposed to mean?

Suspension of disbelief. (I can't say I've ever seen that acronym used
before—in this group or just in general.) <a href="http://www.acronymfinder.com" target="_blank">http://www.acronymfinder.com</a> is
your friend, in any case :-)

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nu mă, nu mă iei, nu mă, nu mă, nu mă iei.
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#115: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 22:10:42 by ag30476

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
&gt; AG 30476 wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; You have made a ton of assumptions and deductions from the scant info
&gt; &gt; given in book 1 about the nature of the FC at GH. yet you have ignored
&gt; &gt; the 2nd example of a GH in book 5 when she spells out exactly
&gt;
&gt; Don't you mean a FC in book 5?

Yeah I do. Sorry.

&gt; &gt; Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. See my previous. You can say &quot;the Potters are
&gt; &gt; hiding in the village of FC&quot; with the FC in place.
&gt;
&gt; Don't you mean the village of GH?

Yup. I must have hit the dyslexic button.

&gt; I know it's easier to type two letters instead of thirteen, but doing so
&gt; makes ideas harder to follow, for you as well as your readers. And....

I'll try to use less abbreviations but the geek in me is hard to
repress.

&gt; &gt; that happens all the time without paradoxically breaking SOD.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; ability as a writer to build up SOD in the magic of her HP world.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; when it does not affect SOD and the central backstory affects SOD.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; mention them inadverdantly and cause incosistencies or SOD issues.
&gt;
&gt; ....what on Earth is this SOD thing supposed to mean?

Sorry again. SOD can stand for 'Stormtroopers of Death' or 'superoxide
dismutase' but here I mean 'suspension of disbelief', or the
willingness to accept the premises in a work of fiction. For example,
for Harry Potter to work we must be willing to believe that, for the
purpose of enjoying the book or film, that witches do in fact exist in
the context of that book or film. This can happen quickly for the
reader or viewer, for example, all sorts of strange things are
introduced in chapter 1 of book 1. It's not just magical premises that
must be accepted but certain story premises, for example we must accept
that Voldemort is really a Big Bad Evil Guy and won't say something
like &quot;I would've gotten away with if it wasn't for those meddling
kids!&quot; at the end.

My point in the post was that at this point with 6 books, 2600 pages,
familiarity with certain characters, and the fact that certain
characters are gone, I am more willing to suspend disbelief in new
magical effects than in new characters or relationships or events that
we have never heard of before. For example, if we find out in book 7
that Dumbledore did not pick up Harry because he was off defending
against an invasion by the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth sent by Lord
Voldemort, then my suspension of disbelief goes away because it seems
like that is something we should have heard of before. This is because,
for me as a reader, at this point Harry is the end-all an be-all of the
Harry Potter stories. (Of course in the supposed universe of Harry
Potter books, the Earth still has billions of people and is one planet
in a big universe...so how can Harry be the end-all and be-all of that?
Because there is no such universe...it's a story.)

On the other hand, if we find out in book 7 that Fawkes can not only
talk but that he can also can make a darn good Mocha Frappucino come
out of his a** (sorry), then my suspension of disbelief will not be
affected that much. Why not? Because I was not surprised the
first...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...8! times Fawkes has pulled a
hocus-pocus trick out of his a**.

In fact, JKR has introduced new magical tricks (including magical
exceptions to previously assumed magical absolutes) nonestop since page
1. And the fans have swallowed everyone. Notice though, that she is
much more careful in the way she handles character and plot elements.

How many readers would say, &quot;The Quirrel betrayal in book 1 is just
bogus. I don't believe it.&quot;

How many readers would say, &quot;Snape kills DD in book 6 with an AK curse.
I don't believe it. That is not like *Snape*&quot;

Even the readers who believe Snape is ultimately good are willing to
believe that Snape could kill DD.

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#116: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 22:21:06 by DaveD

&quot;Sky Rider&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:home&#64;therange.com" target="_blank">home&#64;therange.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:7duqb2d0mfd2ctaoob6f88lgps6ldl84uj&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">7duqb2d0mfd2ctaoob6f88lgps6ldl84uj&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; On 18 Jul 2006 12:54:03 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> looked at Ron with an
&gt; evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt; &gt;gjw wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; On 17 Jul 2006 23:10:50 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt;For me, this is not a satisfactory explanation - especially the part
&gt; &gt;where emo and blabbermouthy Hagrid never talks about the strange thing
&gt; &gt;that made him go over to the hiding place or the fact that he was in GH
&gt; &gt;but could not do anything to stop LV.
&gt;
&gt; For me this last is the only reason I have for accepting Snape's
&gt; remorse as real.
&gt;
&gt; I figured the only way Dumbledore could have known about all this is
&gt; from a witness. Since we know he'd not have spoken to Wormtail...
&gt; there are few other possibilities... and as one of Voldemorts closest
&gt; DE's, *and* as the person who passed on as much of the prophecy as was
&gt; known... Snape is the only logical choice. So Snape was there, saw the
&gt; whole thing and informed Dumbledore.

I like the idea of Snape turning up to try and stop Voldy, but I'm not sure
how that could have happened: Snape only heard the first part of the
prophecy and told Dd. Presumably Voldy said he would go and kill the Potters
(not sure how he jumpled to that conclusion unless he didn't know about
Neville's birth, unlikely I suspect as the DEs had been torturing his
parents). But how did Snape know where that was - only Wormtail could tell
him due to the FC, and why would he (or did I miss something somewhere).
Possibly the instant Lilly and James were both dead, the FC ceased to work,
but by then they were dead so Snape could only arrive afterwards rather than
be there to witness it.



&gt; Dumbledore didn't know if Harry was alive or dead sent Hagrid to check
&gt; while he sped off to protect Neville. Snape returned to Hogwarts and
&gt; remained there until he killed Dumbledore.

But did Dd consider Neville might be one of two who fit the prophecy back
then?


[snip]
&gt;
&gt; Clearly we are still missing vital parts of the story.


Possibly but I'm still struggling to understand how or why this missing day
is so important (which probably means it is, I just haven't worked out why
yet!)

DaveD

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#117: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 22:49:07 by ag30476

Benjamin Esham wrote:
&gt; Suspension of disbelief. (I can't say I've ever seen that acronym used
&gt; before-in this group or just in general.) <a href="http://www.acronymfinder.com" target="_blank">http://www.acronymfinder.com</a> is
&gt; your friend, in any case :-)

It's common abbreviation in rec.arts.sf.written, rec.games.frp.dnd, and
groups like that.

The posters here are very nice and considerate in comparison...that's
not necessarily a compliment ;)

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#118: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-20 23:34:51 by ag30476

DaveD wrote:
&gt; Possibly but I'm still struggling to understand how or why this missing day
&gt; is so important (which probably means it is, I just haven't worked out why
&gt; yet!)

No it probably means that you are less anal than I am...

The &quot;missing day&quot; problem has been noticed by many and it bothers many
because it effects &quot;suspension of disbelief&quot;.

The books are written in a partly mystery/whodunit style and part of
the fun of this style of book, for some, is figuring out the mystery. A
&quot;missing day&quot; is then not just something that can be hand-waved away
but rather is something that is part of figuring out the mystery. It's
a game. (And arguing who-did-it is with others is part of the game
too.)

But even for those readers who are not actively engaged in figuring out
the mystery, the &quot;missing day&quot; is a problem if it does turn out to be a
&quot;missing day&quot;, an error or errors in the plot. Suppose, just suppose,
that in book 7 we find out that Hagrid got to Godric's Hollow close to
midnight and then in 15 minutes went to Hogwarts and stayed there with
Harry for the whole day. DD is off doing various things (questioning
Snape, informing the Ministry, etc.) At some point DD contacts Hagrid
with the time and place to be with Harry. It only takes Hagrid 15
minutes to go from Hogwarts to Privet Drive. Hagrid gives the baby to
DD and DD casts the blood charm. And then JKR goes to an interview...

Q: Did DD have to go off right away? Could he have have apparated and
GH to check on Harry?
JKR: I guess DD could have gone. He just didn't.

Q: In book 7, we find the trip from Godric's Hollow to Privet Drive is
no more than 30 minutes and DD casts the blood charm very quickly...why
didn't DD just tell Hagrid to meet him at Privet Drive 30 minutes after
Hagrid picked up Harry?
JKR: Oh you see DD is a very proper Englishman and he though it was too
late in the evening to drop off a baby on the Durseley's doorstep.

Q: What would have happened if Sirius had gotten to Harry before
Hagrid?
JKR: I don't know. I didn't write it that way.

Q: If Sirius was worried about the Potters, why did he fly there on his
bike?
JKR: Sirius never did get an apparate license you see.

Q: How come DD knows so much about what happened at Grodric's Hollow
that night.
JKR: Oh he just figure it out. He's such a smarty.

Do the answers sound flippant and ad-hoc? They are. Do you think that
if you read such a story and did not get any better answers than that,
that you would happy and satisfied as a fan and reader of book 7? I
wouldn't be satisfied. Many others wouldn't either.

Before anybody jumps in and says &quot;But that won't happen&quot;, of course it
won't happen that way.

The assumption above all others that I am making is that JKR did the
sensible mystery writer thing and wrote a consistent and believable
backstory, the story of what at happened the night at Godric's Hollow
to Jame, Lilly, Harry, Voldemort, Pettigrew, DD, Sirius, Hagrid,
McGonogall, Snape and even the muggles at Godric's Hollow. She then
wrote notes on the points of view of events for each character. This is
not hard to do for a good writer. In fact, she has said she writes more
or less in this way in interviews. And it lets her tell a tale with
mystery that will be resolved without conflict in the last book.

For me the important thing as a reader is the the story maintain it's
'suspension of disbelief'. That is that character and plot be
consistent. That no deus-ex-machina's/ad-hoc explanations are used to
fix plot hose. Eg, the Potter's former butler told DD everything that
happend at GH.

But it seems some people would prefer that the magical mechanics of the
Harry Potter world (eg how the Fidelius Charm works) work in a way
consistent with their assumptions and that no new magical exceptions
appear (eg the Fidelius Charm can be bypassed with X). I guess that is
how they want to keep 'suspension of disbelief'.

I guess it's a matter of taste.

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#119: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:39:35 by Other John

On 20 Jul 2006 13:10:42 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
&gt;&gt; AG 30476 wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; You have made a ton of assumptions and deductions from the scant info
&gt;&gt; &gt; given in book 1 about the nature of the FC at GH. yet you have ignored
&gt;&gt; &gt; the 2nd example of a GH in book 5 when she spells out exactly
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Don't you mean a FC in book 5?
&gt;
&gt;Yeah I do. Sorry.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. See my previous. You can say &quot;the Potters are
&gt;&gt; &gt; hiding in the village of FC&quot; with the FC in place.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Don't you mean the village of GH?
&gt;
&gt;Yup. I must have hit the dyslexic button.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I know it's easier to type two letters instead of thirteen, but doing so
&gt;&gt; makes ideas harder to follow, for you as well as your readers. And....
&gt;
&gt;I'll try to use less abbreviations but the geek in me is hard to
&gt;repress.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; that happens all the time without paradoxically breaking SOD.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; ability as a writer to build up SOD in the magic of her HP world.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; when it does not affect SOD and the central backstory affects SOD.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; mention them inadverdantly and cause incosistencies or SOD issues.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ....what on Earth is this SOD thing supposed to mean?
&gt;
&gt;Sorry again. SOD can stand for 'Stormtroopers of Death'

Well that conjures up some fun memories. Of course having &quot;what's that
noise&quot; stuck in my head won't be fun for much longer.

&gt;dismutase' but here I mean 'suspension of disbelief', or the
&gt;willingness to accept the premises in a work of fiction. For example,
&gt;for Harry Potter to work we must be willing to believe that, for the
&gt;purpose of enjoying the book or film, that witches do in fact exist in
&gt;the context of that book or film. This can happen quickly for the
&gt;reader or viewer, for example, all sorts of strange things are
&gt;introduced in chapter 1 of book 1. It's not just magical premises that
&gt;must be accepted but certain story premises, for example we must accept
&gt;that Voldemort is really a Big Bad Evil Guy and won't say something
&gt;like &quot;I would've gotten away with if it wasn't for those meddling
&gt;kids!&quot; at the end.
&gt;
&gt;My point in the post was that at this point with 6 books, 2600 pages,
&gt;familiarity with certain characters, and the fact that certain
&gt;characters are gone, I am more willing to suspend disbelief in new
&gt;magical effects than in new characters or relationships or events that
&gt;we have never heard of before.

I have a hunch that a good amount of book 7 is going to be revealing
bits of history and relationships that aren't exactly the way Harry
wants them to be. Certainly not as good and noble as the &quot;good
guys&quot; remember. Not enough to drive Harry to Daywatch but enough
to change the way he looks at his father, Sirius, DD and the rest of
the &quot;good guys&quot;


&gt; For example, if we find out in book 7
&gt;that Dumbledore did not pick up Harry because he was off defending
&gt;against an invasion by the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth sent by Lord
&gt;Voldemort, then my suspension of disbelief goes away because it seems
&gt;like that is something we should have heard of before.

Maybe not one big event like that, but probably a series of
unfortunate ^H^H^H^H^H lesser events that as a whole make a
huge difference in the final battle. Of all the jobs on DD's list of
&quot;Things to do when Voldemort snuffs it&quot; going to get Harry was
probably the only thing Hagrid was capable of.


&gt;This is because,
&gt;for me as a reader, at this point Harry is the end-all an be-all of the
&gt;Harry Potter stories. (Of course in the supposed universe of Harry
&gt;Potter books, the Earth still has billions of people and is one planet
&gt;in a big universe...so how can Harry be the end-all and be-all of that?
&gt;Because there is no such universe...it's a story.)
&gt;
&gt;On the other hand, if we find out in book 7 that Fawkes can not only
&gt;talk but that he can also can make a darn good Mocha Frappucino come
&gt;out of his a** (sorry), then my suspension of disbelief will not be
&gt;affected that much. Why not? Because I was not surprised the
&gt;first...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...8! times Fawkes has pulled a
&gt;hocus-pocus trick out of his a**.

I'll disagree with you on this one. A character with knowledge
or a skill that was unknown until it is needed is dangerously close to
deus ex machina. Any more tricks pulled out of Fawlkes' a** won't
work for me.

&gt;In fact, JKR has introduced new magical tricks (including magical
&gt;exceptions to previously assumed magical absolutes) nonestop since page
&gt;1. And the fans have swallowed everyone. Notice though, that she is
&gt;much more careful in the way she handles character and plot elements.


JKR has set up a few characters as having the potential to save the
day but as yet they have either under performed or simply been
ignored. The bit about Neville (sp?) and the gillyweed in GOF is a
good example. Neville had the right books and could have solved
Harry's problem early on but nobody asked. The fake Moody even
berated Harry for not asking.

I think we'll be seeing more characters doing the same things they
have done before. The only difference is that Harry will actually ask
for help before the crap hits the fan not after.


&gt;How many readers would say, &quot;The Quirrel betrayal in book 1 is just
&gt;bogus. I don't believe it.&quot;
&gt;
&gt;How many readers would say, &quot;Snape kills DD in book 6 with an AK curse.
&gt;I don't believe it. That is not like *Snape*&quot;
&gt;
&gt;Even the readers who believe Snape is ultimately good are willing to
&gt;believe that Snape could kill DD.

Report this message

#120: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:45:30 by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Ag 30476 wrote:

&gt; Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

&gt;&gt; Actually, 'Richard Eney' is a woman named Tamar. ^_^

&gt; (=F3 =F4)...interesting

Tamar is indeed very interesting!


&gt;&gt; By the way, your posts would be much clearer to read in black &amp; white
&gt;&gt; if you left a blank line between the quoted text &amp; your response.

&gt; Point taken...I'm just Googling...but I'll be more considerate from
&gt; here on.

Thanks - I do like your posts, at least the less long ones. ^_^


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!

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#121: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:46:37 by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

AG 30476 wrote:

&gt; Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:

&gt;&gt;&gt; That is a very good possibility for the &quot;more (or equally) important&quot;
&gt;&gt;&gt; thing that DD had to do: that DD is off guarding Neville while Hagrid
&gt;&gt;&gt; rescues Harry.

&gt;&gt; I like this idea, AG 30476.

&gt; Wish I could take credit but nothing is new under the Internet sun.

I managed to miss it until now.


&gt;&gt; When Hagrid arrived with 15-month-old Harry, shouldn't Dumbledore have
&gt;&gt; been more shocked to see the cut on the boy's head? That would've been
&gt;&gt; the moment that he realised Voldemort had marked him as his equal.

&gt; Yeah that's just another one of thosee things that make many people
&gt; suspect that a witness at Godric's Hollow told Dumbledore what
&gt; happened. DD just seems a bit too knowledgeable and calm by the time of
&gt; Privet Drive.

I still wonder if reality changed when Harry &amp; Hermione went back in time.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!

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#122: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:47:43 by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Sky Rider wrote:

&gt; Drusilla wrote:

&gt;&gt;&gt; The assumptions you make in that paragraph don't hold. Likewise how do
&gt;&gt;&gt; you know he can't apparate?? We know he uses Thestrals in preference
&gt;&gt;&gt; to brooms but this is one more thing we are assuming and don't *know*.

&gt;&gt; &quot;The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid until
&gt;&gt; he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose against
&gt;&gt; the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone.&quot;

&gt;&gt; (HP &amp; the PS, Diagon Alley)

&gt;&gt; Disapparition, anybody? Might be...

&gt; Nice catch :)

&gt; That'll mess with a few assumptions eh?? :D

Hagrid disapparated off the overbridge in the movie.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

--
Free Margaret Blaine now!

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#123: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:17:10 by Sky Rider

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:21:06 GMT, &quot;DaveD&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:davedn1DELETE&#64;THESEblueyonderBITS.co.uk" target="_blank">davedn1DELETE&#64;THESEblueyonderBITS.co.uk</a>&gt; looked at Ron with an evil
Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;&quot;Sky Rider&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:home&#64;therange.com" target="_blank">home&#64;therange.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;news:<a href="mailto:7duqb2d0mfd2ctaoob6f88lgps6ldl84uj&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">7duqb2d0mfd2ctaoob6f88lgps6ldl84uj&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; On 18 Jul 2006 12:54:03 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> looked at Ron with an
&gt;&gt; evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;&gt; &gt;gjw wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On 17 Jul 2006 23:10:50 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;&gt; For me this last is the only reason I have for accepting Snape's
&gt;&gt; remorse as real.

&gt;&gt; I figured the only way Dumbledore could have known about all this is
&gt;&gt; from a witness. Since we know he'd not have spoken to Wormtail...
&gt;&gt; there are few other possibilities... and as one of Voldemorts closest
&gt;&gt; DE's, *and* as the person who passed on as much of the prophecy as was
&gt;&gt; known... Snape is the only logical choice. So Snape was there, saw the
&gt;&gt; whole thing and informed Dumbledore.

&gt;I like the idea of Snape turning up to try and stop Voldy, but I'm not sure
&gt;how that could have happened: Snape only heard the first part of the
&gt;prophecy and told Dd. Presumably Voldy said he would go and kill the Potters
&gt;(not sure how he jumpled to that conclusion unless he didn't know about
&gt;Neville's birth, unlikely I suspect as the DEs had been torturing his
&gt;parents). But how did Snape know where that was - only Wormtail could tell
&gt;him due to the FC, and why would he (or did I miss something somewhere).
&gt;Possibly the instant Lilly and James were both dead, the FC ceased to work,
&gt;but by then they were dead so Snape could only arrive afterwards rather than
&gt;be there to witness it.

I didn't think he'd gone there to *stop* Voldie... but was there under
orders from him when he destroyed the Potters. Snape would have
enjoyed watching James die.

I also suspect that Snape had a 'thing' for Lily and might have been
hoping to 'comfort' her after James death. As part of some 'deal',
Voldie told Snape he wouldn't kill Lily and was devastated when he
realised she'd been killed.

Part of his hatred for Harry is that apart from him looking so much
like the hated James, he also has his mothers eyes and each time he
sees them he is reminded of his greatest treachery.

I see nothing inconsistent with anything in the books about this...
and can see Snape waiting outside the house along with Wormtail for
the deed to be done.

&gt;&gt; Dumbledore didn't know if Harry was alive or dead sent Hagrid to check
&gt;&gt; while he sped off to protect Neville. Snape returned to Hogwarts and
&gt;&gt; remained there until he killed Dumbledore.

&gt;But did Dd consider Neville might be one of two who fit the prophecy back
&gt;then?

Of course... there were only two children born during the previous
year whose parents fitted the prophecy. The wizarding world is small
enough such that any such occurrence would have been noted.

[snip]

&gt;&gt; Clearly we are still missing vital parts of the story.

&gt;Possibly but I'm still struggling to understand how or why this missing day
&gt;is so important (which probably means it is, I just haven't worked out why
&gt;yet!)

I'm not sure it's relevant in the overall scheme of things... and
yet... there are so many questions unanswered that it just might be...
especially if it brings Snape and his motivations into sharper focus.
It could give us an insight into the role he will play in the final
battle. :)
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
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#124: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:47:35 by Sky Rider

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:47:43 BST, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day
Slitheen &lt;<a href="mailto:bffpds&#64;raxacoricofallapatoria" target="_blank">bffpds&#64;raxacoricofallapatoria</a>&gt; looked at Ron with an evil
Grint in his eye and said :

&gt;Sky Rider wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Drusilla wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The assumptions you make in that paragraph don't hold. Likewise how do
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; you know he can't apparate?? We know he uses Thestrals in preference
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to brooms but this is one more thing we are assuming and don't *know*.
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid until
&gt;&gt;&gt; he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose against
&gt;&gt;&gt; the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone.&quot;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; (HP &amp; the PS, Diagon Alley)
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Disapparition, anybody? Might be...
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Nice catch :)
&gt;
&gt;&gt; That'll mess with a few assumptions eh?? :D
&gt;
&gt;Hagrid disapparated off the overbridge in the movie.

Still disappeared tho... the movie just made it more obvious :)
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

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#125: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:45:33 by ag30476

Other John wrote:
&gt; I have a hunch that a good amount of book 7 is going to be revealing
&gt; bits of history and relationships that aren't exactly the way Harry
&gt; wants them to be. Certainly not as good and noble as the &quot;good
&gt; guys&quot; remember. Not enough to drive Harry to Daywatch...

And for those who have not seen Night Watch (Nochnoy Dozor) yet : DO
IT! It's better than the Matrix.

&gt; &gt; For example, if we find out in book 7
&gt; &gt;that Dumbledore did not pick up Harry because he was off defending
&gt; &gt;against an invasion by the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth sent by Lord
&gt; &gt;Voldemort, then my suspension of disbelief goes away because it seems
&gt; &gt;like that is something we should have heard of before.
&gt;
&gt; Maybe not one big event like that, but probably a series of
&gt; unfortunate ^H^H^H^H^H lesser events that as a whole make a
&gt; huge difference in the final battle. Of all the jobs on DD's list of
&gt; &quot;Things to do when Voldemort snuffs it&quot; going to get Harry was
&gt; probably the only thing Hagrid was capable of.

Absolutely. I can totally believe that DD has a ton of stuff to do:
find out what's happened (if he does not know already), check the Dark
Mark on Snape's arm, inform the Ministry, inform the OotP, start
rounding up DE's, locate Sirius (the supposed SK), research/cast the
blood charm (if he has not already done so), recharge the Put-Outer,
etc.

It looks like a long list. It might even take a day to complete. He
better get started right away and send good ol'Hagrid to pick up the
kid. No sense in wasting 5 minutes apparating to GH and back. Hagrid
can do the job. I'm sure Hagrid can get thre before Sirius or anyone
else. It's not even likely Hagrid will run into any trouble. DD
probably won't even ask Hagrid if he had any problems when Hagrid turns
up at Privet Drive.

&gt; I'll disagree with you on this one. A character with knowledge
&gt; or a skill that was unknown until it is needed is dangerously close to
&gt; deus ex machina. Any more tricks pulled out of Fawlkes' a** won't
&gt; work for me.

Fawkes does seem to full of tricks up his ... Actually, the
intervention of Fawkes almost did my suspension of disbelief in CoS.
And the go-back-in-time-to-save-the-hero's cliche in PoA was also hard
to take. Then there was the Priori Incantatem in GoF...

&gt; JKR has set up a few characters as having the potential to save the
&gt; day but as yet they have either under performed or simply been
&gt; ignored. The bit about Neville (sp?) and the gillyweed in GOF is a
&gt; good example. Neville had the right books and could have solved
&gt; Harry's problem early on but nobody asked. The fake Moody even
&gt; berated Harry for not asking.

Agreed. Neville is set up enough to do something great...or maybe she's
just playing with out emotions again.

Report this message

#126: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:48:49 by ag30476

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
&gt; Thanks - I do like your posts, at least the less long ones. ^_^

(-_-;)

It's the frustrated professor in me...

(ToT)

Report this message

#127: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-21 04:16:21 by ag30476

Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen wrote:
&gt; I still wonder if reality changed when Harry &amp; Hermione went back in time.

&quot;Time travel is increasingly regarded as a menace.&quot;
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Report this message

#128: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-21 04:39:26 by ag30476

Sky Rider wrote:
&gt; I didn't think he'd gone there to *stop* Voldie... but was there under
&gt; orders from him when he destroyed the Potters. Snape would have
&gt; enjoyed watching James die.

It's more likely that it was Snape that warned Dumbledore after he,
Snape, told the Dumbledore the prophecy but before Voldemort took
action. But it's really hard to tell...

&gt; I also suspect that Snape had a 'thing' for Lily and might have been
&gt; hoping to 'comfort' her after James death. As part of some 'deal',
&gt; Voldie told Snape he wouldn't kill Lily and was devastated when he
&gt; realised she'd been killed.

Although this is similar to how many interpret two clues (the hints of
Snape's feelings for Lilly at Hogwarts and Voldemort's offer to spare
Lilly), this interpretation does not really fit the characters in IMHO.


Voldemort is unlikely to make deals or spare anyone to reward a
follower. Voldemort expects obedience. His followers are deathly afraid
of him. And we see him play with their expectations, eg Pettigrew in
Gof and Narcissa and Draco in HBP.

Snape is sharper that most DE's and seems aware of the way Voldemort
treats his followers. More importantly, there are a few hints about
Lilly's character before Godric's Hollow. And none would seem to
indicate that anyone who knew her well would expect her to accept an
offer to live in exchange for her child.

&gt; Part of his hatred for Harry is that apart from him looking so much
&gt; like the hated James, he also has his mothers eyes and each time he
&gt; sees them he is reminded of his greatest treachery.
&gt;
&gt; I see nothing inconsistent with anything in the books about this...
&gt; and can see Snape waiting outside the house along with Wormtail for
&gt; the deed to be done.

It's not inconsistent as far as the text is considered. It just seems
out of character with the good Snape. Now if Snape is ultimately evil,
then it's in character.

Report this message

#129: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-21 09:23:33 by dicconf

In article &lt;e9n049$7qb$<a href="mailto:1&#64;nntp.aioe.org" target="_blank">1&#64;nntp.aioe.org</a>&gt;, drusilla &lt;<a href="mailto:me&#64;me.net" target="_blank">me&#64;me.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;Sky Rider escribió:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; The assumptions you make in that paragraph don't hold. Likewise how do
&gt;&gt; you know he can't apparate?? We know he uses Thestrals in preference
&gt;&gt; to brooms but this is one more thing we are assuming and don't *know*.
&gt;
&gt;&quot;The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid until
&gt;he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose against
&gt;the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone.&quot;
&gt;
&gt;(HP &amp; the PS, Diagon Alley)
&gt;
&gt;Disapparition, anybody? Might be...

Or a borrowed Invisibility Cloak. Or a hidden wizard (inside an Inv.Clk.)
casting a Disillusionment-Chameleon spell on Hagrid.

=Tamar

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#130: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day - LONG spoilers

Posted on 2006-07-21 11:15:51 by dicconf

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153237854.372985.122770&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153237854.372985.122770&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;Richard Eney wrote:
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt; what was more important than Harry's safety IF DD could get to
&gt;&gt; &gt; GH QUICKLY?

&gt;&gt; DD may have been talking to the centaurs for astrological advice.
&lt;snips&gt;
&gt;Maybe. Perhaps. This too is a possibility.
&lt;snip&gt;
&gt;In fact, my 2 assumptions (1. DD and Hagrid could not go directly
&gt; GH because they did not know the secret of GH and 2. DD had a
&gt;relatively slow transport that could bypass the secret and so
&gt; he sent Hagrid by this means) and yours (DD went to the Centaurs
&gt; to get astrology advice) are not necessarily contradictory.
&gt;
&gt;But you are making the further assumption that DD HAD to go to
&gt;the Centaurs to get astrology advice RIGHT AWAY and this is the
&gt;reason he sent Hagrid to GH. The question then is which explanation is
&gt;more likely? And it makes no sense to me that DD has a sense of urgency
&gt;about getting astrological advice but not about rescuing Harry.

Yes, that is a further assumption I made: that DD felt the need to get
astrological advice immediately. The use of astrology for planning the
best time for your actions - horary astrology - is all about Time. JKR
has used time a lot in the story so far. The Dept. of Mysteries studies
time: the planets, time reversal and its effect on growth and development,
prophecy (which transcends time). They had devices that could control time.
If the best time to place Harry with a blood relative would be at dawn,
then DD needed to know that. Whether he did the work himself, asked the
centaurs, or asked the Dept.of Mysteries, he seemed to have to know when
the most auspicious time was.

I'm not speculating much about that: I'm basing it on the canon fact
that DD checked his planets-motions watch anxiously and said that Hagrid
was late. He was relieved when Hagrid finally arrived and there was
still a short time during which the planets were in position for
auspicious aspects. The really speculative part is that I am trying
to fill in some of the missing 24 hours by having Dd go for the advice
first, while sending Hagrid to rescue Harry from the rubble.

&gt;&gt; &gt;McG asks DD in book 1, chapter 1:
&gt;&gt; &gt;'&quot;What they're saying,&quot; she pressed on, &quot;is that last
&gt;&gt; &gt;night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to
&gt;&gt; &gt;find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James Potter
&gt;&gt; &gt;are -- are -- that they're -- dead. &quot;'
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;Who are 'they'? How can 'they' not know the importance of GH?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; How do 'they' know that the Potters were in GH? Was it widespread
&gt;&gt; knowledge?
&gt;
&gt;Oh come on! That is plain English. 'They' can only mean 'other
&gt;wizards', that is other than DD and McG. How many other wizards? 2? 20?
&gt;200? Who knows? But it is 2 or more.

If you count the &gt;&gt;&gt; marks, you will see that I was quoting you.
You were the one who asked &quot;Who are 'they'?&quot;

What _I_ asked was &quot;How do 'they' know that the Potters were in GH?&quot;
The way McG says it, it sounds as though everybody knew the Potters
were hiding in GH. Now, probably that was backformation by the general
wizarding public: if the Potters are found dead in GH, obviously
they were in GH at some point - either alive or having been brought
their dead to have the bodies dumped in a symbolic place (which is
not the DEs' usual style).

The whole thing is screwy. How does _anyone_ know what Voldemort's
motivation really was? &quot;They&quot; - the other wizards who are spreading
the rumors and celebrating - are assuming that Voldemort went there
to find the Potters; for all we really know, he was going out for pizza
and saw James Potter coming home with the groceries. (That's a joke.)

The other wizards are making the assumption based on the observed result:
the adult Potters are dead. Thinking it over, I think that McG said
&quot;the rumor is&quot; because she didn't want it to be true, even though she
was emotionally able to say that Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow
in the form of a factual statement.

&gt;&gt; &gt;And then DD has the NERVE to say:
&gt;&gt; &gt;'&quot;Hagrid,&quot; said Dumbledore, sounding relieved. &quot;At last.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; DD has been checking his astrology/astronomy watch. I think he was waiting
&gt;&gt; for the most auspicious time to complete the blood-protection spell. The
&gt;&gt; spell was probably keyed to the letter he had written in advance, and was
&gt;&gt; cast by the act of putting it into the basket with baby Harry. The most
&gt;&gt; auspicious time, as determined by the centaurs (speculation), was the
&gt;&gt; following midnight, so Hagrid was told to bring the baby there at the
&gt;&gt; right time. He was a little bit late, but not enough to spoil the spell.
&gt;&gt; That's why Dd was relieved.

&gt;It does not matter why DD is worried that Hagrid is late. My point was
&gt;that given the usual scenario (Hagrid picks up Harry close to midnight,
&gt;does something with him for 24 hours, then comes to Privet Drive
&lt;snip&gt;)
&gt; that it is pointless for DD to be worried because the plan has
&gt;so many places where a delay can be introduced.

Yes, the plan has a lot of places where delays can happen; that
is why Dd is worried. Possibly there is some magical reason why Dd
couldn't use a magical means of keeping track of Hagrid's progress;
he's been busy somewhere that he couldn't use his little silver gadgets
or a scrying crystal (even though he has one in his office). But it
seems that he trusts Hagrid to have picked up Harry - he was only
worried about the time of arrival.

&gt;&gt; &gt;And where did you get that motorcycle?&quot;'
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Having Dd ask about the motorcycle is JKR's way of distracting us
&gt;&gt; from the time element she had set up.
&gt;
&gt;There's not reason to claim that because JK gives no hint otherwise
&gt;that the exact moment is important - your supposition. In fact, though
&gt;DD is worried about Hagrid being late to meet him, he does not seem
&gt;like an overly rushed person. The three stop to look at and talk about
&gt;Harry.

My supposition is based entirely on the fact that Dd checks his planetary
watch and says Hagrid is late. Therefore the time is important. Some
astrological aspects only last about eight minutes, while others last
for days and even months. From the story action described, it seems
likely that the aspect - if there was one involved - allowed for close
to an hour of time during which the protection spell set-up could be
completed.

Storywise, it seems likely that the act of leaving Harry on the doorstep
had to be completed during the hour between midnight and one o'clock in
the morning - the traditional &quot;witching hour&quot;, which is supposed to be
the most magical. The attack was almost certainly during that hour on
Halloween; the doorstep-deposition would be during that hour of All
Saints' Day night. (By the old system, in which the day begins at dawn
and the 24 hours goes to the following dawn, the midnight hour is part
of the preceding daylight hours, so the hour between 12:00 midnight
and 1:00 AM that night would still have been All Saints' Day.)

&gt;&gt; The muggles would have been swarming around as soon as there was an
&gt;&gt; explosion. Even if the nearest muggle fire company and rescue squad
&gt;&gt; equivalent was 20 minutes away, there is only a small window of time
&gt;&gt; open for Hagrid to arrive, find Harry, meet Sirius, and leave before
&gt;&gt; the muggles got there. The MoM arrived after the muggles, because
&gt;&gt; they questioned the muggles as witnesses.
&gt;
&gt;That assumes a 2nd supposition - that the FC was broken and the muggles
&gt;could get to the hiding spot. And that is a supposition - it is never
&gt;explicitly stated that the FC is broken.

Hagrid says that he got there before the Muggles started swarmin' around.
If the muggles couldn't have seen him, it wouldn't have made any
difference, so why mention them at all?

&gt;It may seem like an obvious deduction: Hagrid went to the GH hiding
&gt;spot and so either Hagrid knew the secret or the FC was broken.

Hagrid had to get into the rubble to find Harry.

&gt; My proposal that Hagrid got to the GH hiding spot by some
&gt;exceptional magical means that bypasses the secret supposes that
&gt; (1) the secret was not broken (2) DD/Hagrid did not know it
&gt;and (3) this magical bypass exists
&gt;but it logically explains the actions of DD and Hagrid.

It depends on whether the secret can be broken by the secret-keeper
in such a way that everyone can get in. I feel that if the spell
specifies (as it ought to) exactly _who_ isn't to be told, then by
telling _that person_, the secret-keeper effectively ends the spell
completely. If that is true, then when PP told LV the secret, the
spell was completely ended and therefore Hagrid - and the muggles -
could get in. If so, then no magical bypass is needed.

&gt;As for the interviewing of muggles in GH...like I've said we can
&gt;suppose that they saw/heard something that night.

I assume they did, because they began &quot;swarmin' around&quot; - something
had to have caused them to come around after midnight. That fact
might be more evidence that the spell was broken - if sound could
be heard outside the house when a Fidelius Charm was operational,
Mrs Black's screaming (not to mention Molly's) would be noticed
by the neighbors in Grimmauld Place.

That's another problem in the story: the _house_ seems to have
blown up when the AK backfired, but the explosion in the street
that drew the attention of muggles happened when Sirius faced Peter,
and Peter blew up over a dozen muggles and (supposedly) himself.

It can't have been the same explosion, because Hagrid got there
and found Harry in the rubble, then met Sirius, who had not yet met
Peter and who was upset about the deaths of the adult Potters. (So
I assume they found the bodies relatively intact, and since nobody
was quite sure about LV, his body must have been destroyed - which
is not the usual result of AK.)

&gt;&gt; Harry's jagged cut on his face was not yet a scar. It may have
&gt;&gt; stopped bleeding but it hadn't even scabbed over yet - it is
&gt;&gt; described as a &quot;small cut&quot;. It is DD who says it will be a scar.
&gt;
&gt;It is a magical scar. So what does this imply to you? We know that
&gt;it is about 24 hours later because McG waited all day.

The cut is not described as still bleeding, but it is a cut, not yet
a scar. If it hasn't formed a noticeable scab (which is debatable,
I suppose), then there seems to have been very little time elapsed
from being picked out of the rubble and taken to Privet Drive.
If the cut has formed a solid scab, then Harry has gone through at
least an hour at normal time rates. If the cut is still open, then
either somebody has kept it open (unlikely) or there has been time
travel (which I don't want to have happened).

I agree that time-turners don't help here anyway, because as so
far described, they return you to the time you left. Besides,
McG already knew from the rumors that that Harry had survived.
If Hagrid was the first to get there and took Harry away immediately,
how did the general wizarding public know that Harry had survived
in time for McG to hear about it?

&gt;time travel does not simplify matters it complicates them.
I know that. That's why I hate the idea.

&gt;If DD can go back in time why can't he go back in time to when he
&gt;met Riddle or why can't LV later on go back in time...on and on
&gt;and on...

Because even DEs know that if you mess around with changing history,
you run a risk of dying as a result. Voldy wouldn't want that, and
DD is against that kind of thing too, but he has been shown taking
the risk because he knew he could trust Hermione to follow the rules.
Also Dd is a lot less frightened of dying than LV is.

&gt;&gt; I still can't figure in how Hagrid and Dd seem not to know about
&gt;&gt; Sirius being caught and accused.
&gt;
&gt;I think here you are supposing that DD sends Hagrid back in time and
&gt;now you have to suppose not only about the things that happened but
&gt;about what the time travellers may have known. This is why time travel
&gt;is such a bad choice to fix suspension of disbelief/continuity
&gt;problems.

Agreed. It's a weak theory. About the only thing it might explain is
why Harry's cut wasn't scabby.

Even without a time turner, though, it seems odd that Dd and Hagrid
don't know about Sirius. Unless Dd had guessed that Sirius as the
Secret Keeper must have told the secret (not knowing about PP), and
for some reason didn't tell Hagrid to beware of Sirius, which doesn't
make a lot of sense either. If Dd doesn't know, then Sirius confronted
PP after Harry was left on the doorstep, and Dd had originally planned
just to order Sirius (as godfather) not to ever visit Harry.

&gt;In the non-time travel reconstruction DD thinks he know Sirius is the
&gt;SK and testifies to that later. Hagrid apparently did not know this
&gt;when he met Sirius and is too dense (sorry to say) to ask how and why
&gt;Sirius is there at GH.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; McG was sitting on a brick wall since dawn, so she has an excuse.
&gt;About not knowing about Sirius? Sorry not sure what you mean.

Yes. McG was sitting on the wall all day, not contacting gossiping
wizards, therefore she didn't know about Sirius being arrested
(though she apparently had heard about the fireworks, either
before she got there or on the neighborhood's muggle radio).

&gt;&gt; If Sirius's encounter with Pettigrew was later and in a different
&gt;&gt; place, maybe it was enough later - after the following midnight -
&gt;&gt; but to be honest, I think JKR just messed up the timeline.
&gt;
&gt;This is a bad assumption because the well-known and easy way to write
&gt;a detective-type story is to write the crime first then to leave out
&gt;parts as you tell the story from different POVs.
&lt;snip&gt;

But it's an excellent assumption given how many times JKR has messed
up the calendar. Two Saturdays in one week, Halloween on Saturday
two years in a row, etc.

&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; If DD can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; not logical for DD to send Hagrid.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Hagrid is naturally protected against magical attack... born with a
&gt;&gt; Shield spell, so to speak.
&gt;
&gt;So? This may protect Hagrid. But it is Harry who needs protection. Can
&gt;Hagrid stop a whole group of DE's of the power of Bellatrix and Lucius
&gt;Malfoy? Can Hagrid protect Harry if an AK is cast at Harry.

Harry has just survived an AK... who's going to try again?

Hagrid is _big_. If Harry is wrapped in Hagrid's arms, any spell cast
will have to go through Hagrid to get to Harry. Also, the attack was
over. People knew it had happened. The DEs were no longer hanging
around; their standard method is to kill, leave the mark, and go away.

Besides: the DEs would have known LV was going there to kill the
child with the power, so they knew he would have tried an AK,
and when the dark marks disappeared and people under Imperius
woke up from it, they knew something major had happened.
But it seems to have taken a few hours for them to be sure, so
they didn't immediately swarm around. When they did, instead of
trying for Harry, they went for Neville's parents. (Why? Maybe
they thought LV had successfully killed Harry but then had tried
for Neville and failed there?)

=Tamar

Report this message

#131: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-21 11:23:44 by dicconf

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;But it's funny, that regarding the FC, JK has said in an interview that
&gt;the FC dies with the SK, that the secret is bound to the soul of the
&gt;SK. What I take from this is that the FC is a very strong charm that is
&gt;nearly impossible break.

Did JKR say that? What I remember (and I could be wrong) is that
JKR said that if the secret keeper dies while the secret is still in force,
then the secret is kept forever. That's why No.12 Grimmauld Place will
someday be lost to all wizardkind, after the last person who was told
about it by DD dies.

=Tamar

Report this message

#132: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-21 14:50:58 by Thomas Madura

Richard Eney wrote:

&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;But it's funny, that regarding the FC, JK has said in an interview that
&gt;&gt;the FC dies with the SK, that the secret is bound to the soul of the
&gt;&gt;SK. What I take from this is that the FC is a very strong charm that is
&gt;&gt;nearly impossible break.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Did JKR say that? What I remember (and I could be wrong) is that
&gt; JKR said that if the secret keeper dies while the secret is still in force,
&gt; then the secret is kept forever. That's why No.12 Grimmauld Place will
&gt; someday be lost to all wizardkind, after the last person who was told
&gt; about it by DD dies.
&gt;
&gt; =Tamar


No - you are wrong.

THe secret was NOT that.

THe secret was that 12 Grimmauld place was the meeting place for
Dumbledore and his followers. That means that if someone went to the
house - they would not be able to see the group meeting there.

Harry owns 12 Grimmaud place - and certainly can tell anyone he chooses
about it - if he keeps it he can pass it on to his heirs.

Report this message

#133: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-21 17:45:40 by ag30476

Richard Eney wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;But it's funny, that regarding the FC, JK has said in an interview that
&gt; &gt;the FC dies with the SK, that the secret is bound to the soul of the
&gt; &gt;SK. What I take from this is that the FC is a very strong charm that is
&gt; &gt;nearly impossible break.
&gt;
&gt; Did JKR say that? What I remember (and I could be wrong) is that
&gt; JKR said that if the secret keeper dies while the secret is still in force,
&gt; then the secret is kept forever. That's why No.12 Grimmauld Place will
&gt; someday be lost to all wizardkind, after the last person who was told
&gt; about it by DD dies.

Sorry for adding confusion here. I think we can all agree that for the
purposes of the story, the FC is supposed to be a magical absolute.
Below is the quote from the JK Rowling site which includes both the
answers she gave interviews and a quote from PoA (page 10).

How the FC works in reality, I don't know. Nobody does. It is not
reality. The point people here are failing to grasp is the the rules of
magic in the HP world are given as simple statements in English. It is
then not too hard to construct, with simple logic,
contradictory/illogical situations the resolutions of which are not
necessarily implied by the text. This is because the HP world is a
imaginary world.

By the way, since it is constructed by the author, she can choose to
break the magical absolute anytime. All she has to do is keep the
'suspension of disbelief'. And she has done just that many times
already in the series.

************************************************************ *****
&gt;From <a href="http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_poll.cfm:" target="_blank">http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_poll.cfm:</a>
************************************************************ *****

What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?
I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that
I'd have voted for... but hey, if this is what you want to know, this
is what you want to know!

When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it
another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the
moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to
know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works,
it is

&quot;an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it&quot;
(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper
(in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody
else - not even the subjects of the secret themselves - can divulge
the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have
been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only
people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail
had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the
information.

Report this message

#134: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-21 18:04:31 by ag30476

Thom Madura wrote:

&gt; No - you are wrong.
&gt;
&gt; THe secret was NOT that.
&gt;
&gt; THe secret was that 12 Grimmauld place was the meeting place for
&gt; Dumbledore and his followers. That means that if someone went to the
&gt; house - they would not be able to see the group meeting there.
&gt;
&gt; Harry owns 12 Grimmaud place - and certainly can tell anyone he chooses
&gt; about it - if he keeps it he can pass it on to his heirs.

No you are wrong. Harry owned it but could not see it until DD gave him
a piece of paper. Harry could have walked straight into where it
appears after the paper, it's still won't doing him any good. Harry,
the owner, is bound by the FC.

Then as per the FC, Harry the owner, cannot tell someone else where 12
Grimmauld is. That may sound illogical to you but it's the way it works
based on the simple rule that only the secret keeper can tell someone
where it is. This is clearly how the author intends it in the text.

We can also make a rather straightforward deduction from the test which
the author almost surely intends us to make. Note that Harry had to
destroy the paper. That and that DD handed him a paper imply that the
secret keeper can tell the secret inadverdantly. DD hands a piece of
paper so as not to speak the secret allowed. Harry destroys the paper
so noone else can read it later.

If Harry had kept the paper, he could then have showed it to someone
else and shared the secret. But then it would not have been Harry
sharing the secret but actually DD through his written note.

The problem here that you and many others make is that you bring in
unnecessary assumptions about how the FC works.

- the FC does not bind the owner (you)

- the FC is worded in a specific way (ie the secret is the fact that
someone is hiding not that the house is hidden)

- the FC has particular strange effects when you create a strange
situation (if you don't know the secret of 12 Grimmauld you could press
your nose to the window of the house and not see anyone inside - of
course if you don't know the secret of 12 Grimmauld you can't press
your nose to the window)

- the FC is logically dependent on other clauses (eg the secret of 12
Grimmauld depends on the house being intact or the OotP exisiting or
the secret at GH depends on the house being intact or the Potter's
being alive)

- there is not exception to the FC (despite that the FC is a
construction of a storyteller who has repeatedly violated in the
stories previously stated magical absolutes without breaking
'suspension of disbelief')

Report this message

#135: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day - LONG spoilers

Posted on 2006-07-21 19:31:27 by ag30476

Richard Eney wrote:
&gt; Yes, that is a further assumption I made: that DD felt the need to get
&gt; astrological advice immediately. The use of astrology for planning the
&gt; best time for your actions - horary astrology - is all about Time. JKR
&gt; has used time a lot in the story so far. The Dept. of Mysteries studies
&gt; time: the planets, time reversal and its effect on growth and development,
&gt; prophecy (which transcends time). They had devices that could control time.
&gt; If the best time to place Harry with a blood relative would be at dawn,
&gt; then DD needed to know that. Whether he did the work himself, asked the
&gt; centaurs, or asked the Dept.of Mysteries, he seemed to have to know when
&gt; the most auspicious time was.

It's not a bad assumption in itself.

&gt; I'm not speculating much about that: I'm basing it on the canon fact
&gt; that DD checked his planets-motions watch anxiously and said that Hagrid
&gt; was late. He was relieved when Hagrid finally arrived and there was
&gt; still a short time during which the planets were in position for
&gt; auspicious aspects. The really speculative part is that I am trying
&gt; to fill in some of the missing 24 hours by having Dd go for the advice
&gt; first, while sending Hagrid to rescue Harry from the rubble.

Well to fill in the missing day we all have to speculate. I hope your
speculations get a friendlier reception than mine did...I don't bind
myself to that though ;)

&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;'&quot;What they're saying,&quot; she pressed on, &quot;is that last
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James Potter
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;are -- are -- that they're -- dead. &quot;'
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;Who are 'they'? How can 'they' not know the importance of GH?
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; How do 'they' know that the Potters were in GH? Was it widespread
&gt; &gt;&gt; knowledge?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Oh come on! That is plain English. 'They' can only mean 'other
&gt; &gt;wizards', that is other than DD and McG. How many other wizards? 2? 20?
&gt; &gt;200? Who knows? But it is 2 or more.
&gt;
&gt; If you count the &gt;&gt;&gt; marks, you will see that I was quoting you.
&gt; You were the one who asked &quot;Who are 'they'?&quot;
&gt;
&gt; What _I_ asked was &quot;How do 'they' know that the Potters were in GH?&quot;
&gt; The way McG says it, it sounds as though everybody knew the Potters
&gt; were hiding in GH.

Yes it does.

&gt; Now, probably that was backformation by the general
&gt; wizarding public: if the Potters are found dead in GH, obviously
&gt; they were in GH at some point - either alive or having been brought
&gt; their dead to have the bodies dumped in a symbolic place (which is
&gt; not the DEs' usual style).
&gt;
&gt; The whole thing is screwy. How does _anyone_ know what Voldemort's
&gt; motivation really was? &quot;They&quot; - the other wizards who are spreading
&gt; the rumors and celebrating - are assuming that Voldemort went there
&gt; to find the Potters; for all we really know, he was going out for pizza
&gt; and saw James Potter coming home with the groceries. (That's a joke.)
&gt;
&gt; The other wizards are making the assumption based on the observed result:
&gt; the adult Potters are dead. Thinking it over, I think that McG said
&gt; &quot;the rumor is&quot; because she didn't want it to be true, even though she
&gt; was emotionally able to say that Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow
&gt; in the form of a factual statement.

Well the problem here is &quot;The other wizards are making the assumption
based on the observed result&quot;. We don't know what if anything other
wizards observed. All that is said is that rumors are spreading.

My reconstrcution (speculation if you will) is that the rumors are not
based on observed event but are rumors from *reported* events. That is,
Dumbledore's spy at GH tells Dumbledore. (Snape may also show
Dumbledore a fading Dark Mark). Then Dumbledore tells the Ministry and
the OotP. And these wizards in turn tell others. Some wizards may also
go to GH and get the testimony of muggles who saw *something*. But
noone (other than Sirius of Hagrid) go to the hiding place. Of course
in my speculation, the FC at GH is still in effect.

&gt; &gt;It does not matter why DD is worried that Hagrid is late. My point was
&gt; &gt;that given the usual scenario (Hagrid picks up Harry close to midnight,
&gt; &gt;does something with him for 24 hours, then comes to Privet Drive
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;)
&gt; &gt; that it is pointless for DD to be worried because the plan has
&gt; &gt;so many places where a delay can be introduced.
&gt;
&gt; Yes, the plan has a lot of places where delays can happen; that
&gt; is why Dd is worried. Possibly there is some magical reason why Dd
&gt; couldn't use a magical means of keeping track of Hagrid's progress;
&gt; he's been busy somewhere that he couldn't use his little silver gadgets
&gt; or a scrying crystal (even though he has one in his office). But it
&gt; seems that he trusts Hagrid to have picked up Harry - he was only
&gt; worried about the time of arrival.

I'm not sure what you are saying? Yes we agree DD is worried. He acts
worried (looks at the watch, says &quot;At last&quot;). My point is that the wise
DD would not make a time-dependent plan unless he had assurances that
he could meet his timelines. The implication being that the plan as
normally thought of (Hagrid pick up Harry, take him to X, them meet me
at Y at time Z while I do A, B, C, ...) is too complicated to be
time-dependent.

I take it you are saying that he is naturally worried because the plan
is complicated but he would still make the plan. If that is in
character for DD for you then I can't argue. But for me, it sounds out
of character.

&gt; My supposition is based entirely on the fact that Dd checks his planetary
&gt; watch and says Hagrid is late. Therefore the time is important. Some
&gt; astrological aspects only last about eight minutes, while others last
&gt; for days and even months. From the story action described, it seems
&gt; likely that the aspect - if there was one involved - allowed for close
&gt; to an hour of time during which the protection spell set-up could be
&gt; completed.
&gt;
&gt; Storywise, it seems likely that the act of leaving Harry on the doorstep
&gt; had to be completed during the hour between midnight and one o'clock in
&gt; the morning - the traditional &quot;witching hour&quot;, which is supposed to be
&gt; the most magical. The attack was almost certainly during that hour on
&gt; Halloween; the doorstep-deposition would be during that hour of All
&gt; Saints' Day night. (By the old system, in which the day begins at dawn
&gt; and the 24 hours goes to the following dawn, the midnight hour is part
&gt; of the preceding daylight hours, so the hour between 12:00 midnight
&gt; and 1:00 AM that night would still have been All Saints' Day.)

I understand your assumptions 1) time is important 2) in particular the
time at Privet Drive had to be midnight. And we are both speculating
here to fill in this missing day. Your assumptions help explain the
missng day. It's just your assumptions are not to my taste. We all have
different taste of course.

See your assumptions are about the way magic works in the HP world. And
this is something that I don't like to speculate on. Because I don't
think JK wrote down a whole set of magical laws or rules (like you
might find in some RPG like GURPS or D20).

I think she wrote a consistent backstory, parts of which she has
revealed. And I think her mode of operation, her way of keeping
suspension of disbelief, is to mention characters and events before
they are fully developed. For ex, Sirius Black is mentioned in book 1
chapter but is only fully developed in book 3. She does this because it
lends an air of authenticity to the story, eg you say to yourself &quot;Who?
Sirius Black? Oh yeah the guy who lent the bike to Hagrid.&quot; But she
does not bother to maintain a consistency in the mechanics of her
magical world. She constantly finds magical exceptions and
deus-ex-machinas without breaking suspension of dibelief.

&gt; &gt;That assumes a 2nd supposition - that the FC was broken and the muggles
&gt; &gt;could get to the hiding spot. And that is a supposition - it is never
&gt; &gt;explicitly stated that the FC is broken.
&gt;
&gt; Hagrid says that he got there before the Muggles started swarmin' around.
&gt; If the muggles couldn't have seen him, it wouldn't have made any
&gt; difference, so why mention them at all?

Many reasons, to use the word muggles for one. If mentioning it is so
important why is Hagrid not more specific? 'Swarming around' could mean
almost anything.

&gt; &gt;It may seem like an obvious deduction: Hagrid went to the GH hiding
&gt; &gt;spot and so either Hagrid knew the secret or the FC was broken.
&gt;
&gt; Hagrid had to get into the rubble to find Harry.

Like I said it may seem obvious. But I'm speculating that there is (yet
another) magical exception. Note that after 6 books and 2600 pages we
only know for sure of two people who went the hiding place after the
curse backfired, Hagrid and Sirius. And most curiously, it is never
explicitly stated that the person who had the most reason to go to the
hiding place after the curse backfires, Dumbledore, went there.

&gt; &gt; My proposal that Hagrid got to the GH hiding spot by some
&gt; &gt;exceptional magical means that bypasses the secret supposes that
&gt; &gt; (1) the secret was not broken (2) DD/Hagrid did not know it
&gt; &gt;and (3) this magical bypass exists
&gt; &gt;but it logically explains the actions of DD and Hagrid.
&gt;
&gt; It depends on whether the secret can be broken by the secret-keeper
&gt; in such a way that everyone can get in. I feel that if the spell
&gt; specifies (as it ought to) exactly _who_ isn't to be told, then by
&gt; telling _that person_, the secret-keeper effectively ends the spell
&gt; completely. If that is true, then when PP told LV the secret, the
&gt; spell was completely ended and therefore Hagrid - and the muggles -
&gt; could get in. If so, then no magical bypass is needed.

Yes this could be. But again it's an assumption on magical mechanics.

Not that my assumption on an exception is *NOT* an assumption of way
magic works. It's an assumption on the way JKR writes. That is she
creates magical absolutes which are meant to believe cannot be broken.
Then she creates a magical exception (or more than one) that breaks the
absolute without breaking our suspension of disbelief.

So you suppose that the FC is broken when the SK tells the secret to
the enemy. Plausible but not necessary for magical consistency. Gjw
supposes the secret to be brokem when the house is destroyed or the
Potter family is killed. Plausible but not necessary for magical
consistency. I speculate that Hagrid got to the hiding place because he
had a way to bypass the FC. And people argue against that by saying
&quot;NOT MAGICALLY CONSISTENT! NOT MAGICALLY CONSISTENT!&quot;

It's a matter of taste.

&gt; &gt;As for the interviewing of muggles in GH...like I've said we can
&gt; &gt;suppose that they saw/heard something that night.
&gt;
&gt; I assume they did, because they began &quot;swarmin' around&quot; - something
&gt; had to have caused them to come around after midnight. That fact
&gt; might be more evidence that the spell was broken - if sound could
&gt; be heard outside the house when a Fidelius Charm was operational,
&gt; Mrs Black's screaming (not to mention Molly's) would be noticed
&gt; by the neighbors in Grimmauld Place.

They were &quot;swarming around&quot;. Could that mean they were looking at the
rubble? Looking in the rubble? Asking each other where the rubble came
from? Not seeing the rubble at all but asking each other what strange
thing they heard or saw? Or were they walking around dazed and
confused, an after effect of the backfired curse?


&gt; That's another problem in the story: the _house_ seems to have
&gt; blown up when the AK backfired, but the explosion in the street
&gt; that drew the attention of muggles happened when Sirius faced Peter,
&gt; and Peter blew up over a dozen muggles and (supposedly) himself.

Different explosions. The explosion created by Pettigrew was in a
different town a couple of days later.

The second explosion was meant to kill, for the purpose of the story
that os. Pettigrew kills people in the story and leaves a hole in the
ground and we are told these facts because JKR intends us to believe
that Pettigrew is dead.

On the other hand, the events at GH have been kept intentionally vague
and mysterious. And not without coincidence, Harry is going to GH only
in book 7.

&gt; It can't have been the same explosion, because Hagrid got there
&gt; and found Harry in the rubble, then met Sirius, who had not yet met
&gt; Peter and who was upset about the deaths of the adult Potters. (So
&gt; I assume they found the bodies relatively intact, and since nobody
&gt; was quite sure about LV, his body must have been destroyed - which
&gt; is not the usual result of AK.)

Correct.

&gt; &gt;&gt; Harry's jagged cut on his face was not yet a scar. It may have
&gt; &gt;&gt; stopped bleeding but it hadn't even scabbed over yet - it is
&gt; &gt;&gt; described as a &quot;small cut&quot;. It is DD who says it will be a scar.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;It is a magical scar. So what does this imply to you? We know that
&gt; &gt;it is about 24 hours later because McG waited all day.
&gt;
&gt; The cut is not described as still bleeding, but it is a cut, not yet
&gt; a scar. If it hasn't formed a noticeable scab (which is debatable,
&gt; I suppose), then there seems to have been very little time elapsed
&gt; from being picked out of the rubble and taken to Privet Drive.
&gt; If the cut has formed a solid scab, then Harry has gone through at
&gt; least an hour at normal time rates. If the cut is still open, then
&gt; either somebody has kept it open (unlikely) or there has been time
&gt; travel (which I don't want to have happened).


I think people read too much into this. We are not performing a medical
diagnosis here just solving a mystery novel. I don't know exactly what
the healing rate is for cuts of various kinds let alone magically
created ones.

But I have several scars from punches, cuts, falls, etc. I can tell you
a cut from a punch over the eye does not scar in 1 day. It starts to
scab and stops bleeding. But you wouldn't call it scar. Most people
would call it a cut at that point.

&gt; &gt;If DD can go back in time why can't he go back in time to when he
&gt; &gt;met Riddle or why can't LV later on go back in time...on and on
&gt; &gt;and on...
&gt;
&gt; Because even DEs know that if you mess around with changing history,
&gt; you run a risk of dying as a result. Voldy wouldn't want that, and
&gt; DD is against that kind of thing too, but he has been shown taking
&gt; the risk because he knew he could trust Hermione to follow the rules.
&gt; Also Dd is a lot less frightened of dying than LV is.

This is more assumptions on time-travel in the HP world. JKR introduced
time-travel in a limited way in PoA and we are meant to take it just as
a matter of fact that it was just used in that book. Of course if you
start to think about the implications of what you could do with a
time-turner, even one that only sent you back a couple of hours, then
you would never leave home without one.

&gt; &gt;&gt; I still can't figure in how Hagrid and Dd seem not to know about
&gt; &gt;&gt; Sirius being caught and accused.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;I think here you are supposing that DD sends Hagrid back in time and
&gt; &gt;now you have to suppose not only about the things that happened but
&gt; &gt;about what the time travellers may have known. This is why time travel
&gt; &gt;is such a bad choice to fix suspension of disbelief/continuity
&gt; &gt;problems.
&gt;
&gt; Agreed. It's a weak theory. About the only thing it might explain is
&gt; why Harry's cut wasn't scabby.

See above. You don't need time travel if you just take JKR's
description of the cut to be consistent with a scar formed recently,
which it was.

&gt; Even without a time turner, though, it seems odd that Dd and Hagrid
&gt; don't know about Sirius.

No. Hagrid does not suspect Sirius. We can infer Hagrid did not know
Sirius was the SK. DD recommended the FC to the Potters and he
testified that Sirius was the FC. We can infer that DD knew Sirius was
the SK. Sirius sets out looking for Pettigrew. When Pettigrew
disappears, Sirius goes nuts. This is consistent with Sirius knowing
that he cannot know convince anyone that he was not the SK - but this
means that he knew someone knew he was the FC (if that makes sense to
you).

That DD didn't react to the name Sirius Black is in character for the
generally stable DD, a master of Occlumency. Hagrid, the touchstone and
emo of the group, of course has a more emotional reaction later when he
does learn about Sirius.

&gt; Unless Dd had guessed that Sirius as the
&gt; Secret Keeper must have told the secret (not knowing about PP), and
&gt; for some reason didn't tell Hagrid to beware of Sirius, which doesn't
&gt; make a lot of sense either.

This an OK deduction but it is OK that DD did not tell Hagrid abou
Sirius. To me, rescuing Harry is an urgent situation. So DD's
instructions should be relatively simple &quot;pick up Harry, take him to X,
use the Y to get there and back, hurry&quot; not &quot;pick up Harry, take him to
X, use the Y to get there and back, hurry, beware of Sirius, beware of
the DE's, don't fly to fast, take the baby kit...&quot;

&gt; If Dd doesn't know, then Sirius confronted
&gt; PP after Harry was left on the doorstep, and Dd had originally planned
&gt; just to order Sirius (as godfather) not to ever visit Harry.

Agreed. Sirius confronted PP after Prive Drive. But he probably
informed the Ministry that Sirius was the SK right away.

&gt; &gt;&gt; If Sirius's encounter with Pettigrew was later and in a different
&gt; &gt;&gt; place, maybe it was enough later - after the following midnight -
&gt; &gt;&gt; but to be honest, I think JKR just messed up the timeline.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;This is a bad assumption because the well-known and easy way to write
&gt; &gt;a detective-type story is to write the crime first then to leave out
&gt; &gt;parts as you tell the story from different POVs.
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt; But it's an excellent assumption given how many times JKR has messed
&gt; up the calendar. Two Saturdays in one week, Halloween on Saturday
&gt; two years in a row, etc.

Those are OK as long as they don't affect suspension of disbelief.
Halloween on Saturday is just a calendar mistake - an oops. Two
Saturdays in one week can happen if you fail one consistency check in
2600 pages.

But the events at GH are central and were written first. If they don't
fit well, then the story will have a real problem. Of couse it won'd
have a problem because the story of the crime was written first. It's
also not a 2600 page backstory. It's at most 1 chapter lenght. And it
was probably written to be very logical and will seem so when revealed.

&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; If DD can get in and out faster than Hagrid, then it is
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; not logical for DD to send Hagrid.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Hagrid is naturally protected against magical attack... born with a
&gt; &gt;&gt; Shield spell, so to speak.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;So? This may protect Hagrid. But it is Harry who needs protection. Can
&gt; &gt;Hagrid stop a whole group of DE's of the power of Bellatrix and Lucius
&gt; &gt;Malfoy? Can Hagrid protect Harry if an AK is cast at Harry.
&gt;
&gt; Harry has just survived an AK... who's going to try again?

The DE's won't kill Harry. They will just take him to find out what
happened. Sirius won't kill Harry. He will take him to protect him.
Where? Who knows. But Sirius doesn't know about DD's astrological
timeline. A muggle, a person in the village, won't kill Harry. But, if
he could enter the house and hear Harry, he might take him to the
muggle authorities. Then DD has a mess to fix before getting Harry
back. No doubt DD could get Harry back in such a circumstance but why
risk it.

If DD can take 5 minutes to apparate with Hagrid and make sure that
Harry is OK and that Hagrid is on his way to wherever, then DD should.
That DD does not do this is a huge plot hole that takes huge plot
assumptions to overcome.

&gt; Hagrid is _big_. If Harry is wrapped in Hagrid's arms, any spell cast
&gt; will have to go through Hagrid to get to Harry. Also, the attack was
&gt; over. People knew it had happened. The DEs were no longer hanging
&gt; around; their standard method is to kill, leave the mark, and go away.

That is not the only way. Is Hagrid immune to all spells. Could not an
Imperius curse be cast on him. What if he meets a werewolf. Who wins?

The point is, and I don't know why people fail to see this, is
- there is a 1 year old that just went through a traumatic experience
- he is trapped in a neraly destroyed house
- he lives in a very dangerous world with very dangerous things
- Sirius can pick up Harry
- muggle might pick up Harry
- DD can apparate anywhere and back in a matter of moments

Yet DD does not take a few minutes to make sure that DD is safe. This
is, by definition, a plot hole.

&gt; Besides: the DEs would have known LV was going there to kill the
&gt; child with the power, so they knew he would have tried an AK,
&gt; and when the dark marks disappeared and people under Imperius
&gt; woke up from it, they knew something major had happened.
&gt; But it seems to have taken a few hours for them to be sure, so
&gt; they didn't immediately swarm around. When they did, instead of
&gt; trying for Harry, they went for Neville's parents. (Why? Maybe
&gt; they thought LV had successfully killed Harry but then had tried
&gt; for Neville and failed there?)

The fact that they went to the Lonbottom's, that they continued to
operate/hide after LV's fall, that DE's kill and torture muggles at the
Quidditch cup, that Bellatrix kills a fox, all that points to the
character traits that is mean to guide our judgment of the DE's.

The DE's are cruel, evil, ruthless and dangerous.

DD would not stop to think &quot;Well as an intelligent man, I know the DE's
are cruel, evil, ruthless and dangerous. But the DEs would have known
LV was going there to kill the child with the power. So they knew he
would have tried an AK. *checks with Snape* And the dark marks have
disappeared. The people under Imperius are waking up from it. The DE's
know something major has happened. But it will take them a few hours
for them to be sure. So it's safe. I can senf Hagrid.&quot;

At least this type of thinking on DD's part does not make sense to me.

Report this message

#136: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-21 21:28:22 by Thomas Madura

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Thom Madura wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;No - you are wrong.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;THe secret was NOT that.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;THe secret was that 12 Grimmauld place was the meeting place for
&gt;&gt;Dumbledore and his followers. That means that if someone went to the
&gt;&gt;house - they would not be able to see the group meeting there.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Harry owns 12 Grimmaud place - and certainly can tell anyone he chooses
&gt;&gt;about it - if he keeps it he can pass it on to his heirs.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; No you are wrong. Harry owned it but could not see it until DD gave him
&gt; a piece of paper. Harry could have walked straight into where it
&gt; appears after the paper, it's still won't doing him any good. Harry,
&gt; the owner, is bound by the FC.


No - read your stories again.

It is just like the secret of where the Potters were.

The secrets were not where the houses where - the secrets were that they
were hiding places - one of the Potters - the second of the Order of the
Phoenix.

One could walk past the house at Grimmaud place and unless they were in
on the secret - they would not be able to determine that the OOP met
there. However - the house didn't just up a disappear to anyone not in
on the secret. THAT would be stupid. People would notice a house gone.
Especially those who lived there - or near there. A good example would
be if Narcissus found that her family house had disappeared. SHe would
not be in on the OOP secret but since the house was part of her family -
it would be obvious to her that a &quot;secret&quot; was there if the house just
up and was gone.

For example - if the FC was still in place AFTER the person dies(and
your assumption were correct) - then no one would know where the Potters
house was except Pettigrew and those he told - BUT - Sirius was able to
go to the house - and Dumbledore managed to extricate Harry from the
house, and the Dursleys knew that the house &quot;blew up&quot;, and Hagrid
brought baby Harry from the house to the Dursleys (And Hagrid was the
least likely to know the secret).


Now - in the case of DD giving Harry the piece of Paper - DD wanted
Harry to know the secret - that the OOP met at Sirus' house. IF Sirus
had brought Harry to the house WITHOUT the piece of paper - Harry would
have been able to see the house - just not the OOP meeting there.

Report this message

#137: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-21 21:46:02 by ag30476

Thom Madura wrote:
&gt; It is just like the secret of where the Potters were.

Sigh...this is wrong...why is this so hard to understand for people?

&gt; However - the house didn't just up a disappear to anyone not in
&gt; on the secret.

Yes it did just that. 12 Grimmauld did just that.

&gt; THAT would be stupid.

And wizards and flying broom are *NOT* stupid.

&gt; People would notice a house gone.
&gt; Especially those who lived there - or near there. A good example would
&gt; be if Narcissus found that her family house had disappeared. SHe would
&gt; not be in on the OOP secret but since the house was part of her family -
&gt; it would be obvious to her that a &quot;secret&quot; was there if the house just
&gt; up and was gone.

Yes Narcissa would know *about* her family house. But she could not
*find* it. See it's magic.

You should think about what would happen if Narcissa just had a whim to
visit the ol' family home.

Or perhaps you would like to ponder how &quot;brooms&quot; can fly or why
&quot;brooms&quot; are not made with aerodynamic shapes so wizards can fly faster
or whether wizards actually use their &quot;brooms&quot; as brooms.

Report this message

#138: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-21 23:20:08 by Benjamin Esham

Thom Madura wrote:

&gt; Now - in the case of DD giving Harry the piece of Paper - DD wanted Harry
&gt; to know the secret - that the OOP met at Sirus' house. IF Sirus had
&gt; brought Harry to the house WITHOUT the piece of paper - Harry would have
&gt; been able to see the house - just not the OOP meeting there.

Why, then, could Harry only see the house after he had read the paper?

--
Benjamin D. Esham
<a href="mailto:bdesham&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">bdesham&#64;gmail.com</a> | AIM: bdesham128 | Jabber: same as e-mail
&quot;How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!?&quot;
— Pink Floyd

Report this message

#139: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-21 23:38:10 by strom

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
....
&gt;
&gt; &quot;an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
&gt; secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
&gt; the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
&gt; find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it&quot;
&gt; (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
&gt;
&gt; In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
&gt; the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper
&gt; (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody
&gt; else - not even the subjects of the secret themselves - can divulge
&gt; the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
&gt; Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have
&gt; been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only
&gt; people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail
&gt; had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the
&gt; information.

I think I understand it better now.

I originally thought that the FC only behaved as in your second
paragraph.
But actually the first paragraph involves a stronger effect. The
two paragraphs are not synonymous.

The second paragraph is a limited charm:
it only refers to human communication,
and it only affects people who know the secret.
It says that once PP became the SC, nobody else who
knew the secret beforehand could divulge it.
And nobody else who learned it from PP afterward
could divulge it. Only PP could divulge it.
If anyone else tried to divulge it,
either their words would magically vanish in air unheard, or the
recipient would magically forget or misunderstand
what was said. The latter probably happened in Book 6 when
Harry divulged openly that 12GP was the headquarters of
the OOTP in front of the Dursleys -- Harry spoke
the words, but somehow the &quot;information&quot; never
made it into the Dursleys' brains -- instant Obliviation.

But the first paragraph is a much, much, stronger
magical effect than the second paragraph, since
it not only forbids the *divulging* of the secret
by the finite number of people who already know it,
but it also forbids the *discovery* of the secret
by anybody via any means, even means that don't involve
having people betray the secret. I originally didn't
understand that this was part of the definition of the FC,
since the name of the charm implied it had to
do with trust and a defense against betrayal.

The first paragraph implies that the *information* itself,
rather than the *divulging* of the information
is controlled. Therefore, even an independent
investigation wouldn't discover the secret, because
the &quot;information&quot; contained therein was localized
in one spot and couldn't be re-created. An example
from my field (computer science) is cryptography: because
factorizing a large number is hard (even though
checking that a particular pair of numbers are factors
is easy), the factors are often used as a &quot;secret&quot; key --
e.g. for encryption. The
FC would prevent someone from ever, even by
random trial-and-error, guessing/testing the factors. If
he ever tried to guess the factors, he'd forget them
before he got around to checking that their product
equalled the original large number. I assume that
there must be barriers preventing misuse of this
on small enough numbers -- imagine putting the
FC on the fact that 3 and 5 are the factors of 15,
and hereby preventing anyone in the future learning that!

So if the FC is performed often enough, and Secret Keepers
die with their secrets, information will slowly and irretrievably
leak out of the universe. The world will literally fill up
with &quot;lost keys&quot; that nobody can find!

--
Rob Strom

Report this message

#140: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-21 23:44:44 by ag30476

<a href="mailto:s...&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">s...&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote:
&gt; I originally thought that the FC only behaved as in your second
&gt; paragraph.

Well the paragraphs you cite are actually from the official JK Rowling
site (and one is a direct quote from PoA).

&lt;snip elaboration on the *power* of the Fidelius Charm&gt;

&gt; So if the FC is performed often enough, and Secret Keepers
&gt; die with their secrets, information will slowly and irretrievably
&gt; leak out of the universe. The world will literally fill up
&gt; with &quot;lost keys&quot; that nobody can find!

LOL I guess the FC is the black hole of the HP universe.

Report this message

#141: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 00:43:20 by Thomas Madura

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Thom Madura wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;It is just like the secret of where the Potters were.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Sigh...this is wrong...why is this so hard to understand for people?


Because it remains YOU who are wrong.

&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;However - the house didn't just up a disappear to anyone not in
&gt;&gt;on the secret.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Yes it did just that. 12 Grimmauld did just that.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;THAT would be stupid.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; And wizards and flying broom are *NOT* stupid.


They are part of the story - as is the FC spell.


&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;People would notice a house gone.
&gt;&gt;Especially those who lived there - or near there. A good example would
&gt;&gt;be if Narcissus found that her family house had disappeared. SHe would
&gt;&gt;not be in on the OOP secret but since the house was part of her family -
&gt;&gt;it would be obvious to her that a &quot;secret&quot; was there if the house just
&gt;&gt;up and was gone.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Yes Narcissa would know *about* her family house. But she could not
&gt; *find* it. See it's magic.


That IS my point.

If Narcissus could not FIND the house - it would immediatly point out
that the house was part of a secret.

More important - what you are saying is that if the DE's met in
Narcissus' house and Draco did not know the secret - that Draco would
not be able to find his own Home - rubbish.



&gt;
&gt; You should think about what would happen if Narcissa just had a whim to
&gt; visit the ol' family home.

Considering that she would likely believe she had a right to inherit it
as a family member from Sirius - It could have happened.


&gt;
&gt; Or perhaps you would like to ponder how &quot;brooms&quot; can fly or why
&gt; &quot;brooms&quot; are not made with aerodynamic shapes so wizards can fly faster
&gt; or whether wizards actually use their &quot;brooms&quot; as brooms.
&gt;

No - I am sure you spend enough time doing that for both of us.

Report this message

#142: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 01:19:50 by Thomas Madura

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Thom Madura wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;It is just like the secret of where the Potters were.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Sigh...this is wrong...why is this so hard to understand for people?

Because it remains YOU who are wrong. THis is from JKR's site

&quot;an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it&quot;
(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
– not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the
secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.



In plain english - the FC made Pettigrew the ONLY person who could tell
where the Potters were hiding - no one else could do so - even one of
the Potters could not tell about the rest. Even if say Dumbledore knew
by having been told by Pettigrew - he would not have been able to tell
anyone else.

This has nothing to do with the house disappearing - either the Potter's
house or Grimauld place.

Since virtually everyone thought that Sirius was the secret keeper =
only Sirius knew - then if the Potter house disappeared(as you suggest)
- then Dumbledore would not have been able to find it that night since
he was not in on the secret - Hagrid would also have not been able to
find the house - and they would not have been able to find Baby Harry -
unless Pettigrew told them where to find him.

But - Dumbledore found both the house and Harry - Hagrid also found
Harry and took him to the Dursleys at Dumbledore's request.


That 12 Grimmaud place was not visible is not consistent with the FC
spell - and it must have been the result of other enchantments.






&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;However - the house didn't just up a disappear to anyone not in
&gt;&gt;on the secret.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Yes it did just that. 12 Grimmauld did just that.

But not because of the FC spell.


&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;THAT would be stupid.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; And wizards and flying broom are *NOT* stupid.


They are part of the story - as is the FC spell.


&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;People would notice a house gone.
&gt;&gt;Especially those who lived there - or near there. A good example would
&gt;&gt;be if Narcissus found that her family house had disappeared. SHe would
&gt;&gt;not be in on the OOP secret but since the house was part of her family -
&gt;&gt;it would be obvious to her that a &quot;secret&quot; was there if the house just
&gt;&gt;up and was gone.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Yes Narcissa would know *about* her family house. But she could not
&gt; *find* it. See it's magic.


That IS my point.

If Narcissus could not FIND the house - it would immediatly point out
that the house was part of a secret.

More important - what you are saying is that if the DE's met in
Narcissus' house and Draco did not know the secret - that Draco would
not be able to find his own Home - rubbish.



&gt;
&gt; You should think about what would happen if Narcissa just had a whim to
&gt; visit the ol' family home.

Considering that she would likely believe she had a right to inherit it
as a family member from Sirius - It could have happened.


&gt;
&gt; Or perhaps you would like to ponder how &quot;brooms&quot; can fly or why
&gt; &quot;brooms&quot; are not made with aerodynamic shapes so wizards can fly faster
&gt; or whether wizards actually use their &quot;brooms&quot; as brooms.
&gt;

No - I am sure you spend enough time doing that for both of us.

Report this message

#143: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 01:33:23 by ag30476

Thom Madura wrote:
&gt; &gt; And wizards and flying broom are *NOT* stupid.
&gt; They are part of the story - as is the FC spell.

And they fly the way you think they fly.

&gt; &gt; Yes Narcissa would know *about* her family house. But she could not
&gt; &gt; *find* it. See it's magic.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; That IS my point.

It's not going to be about the missing plot hole that you created is
it?

&gt;
&gt; If Narcissus could not FIND the house - it would immediately point out
&gt; that the house was part of a secret.

Nope it wasn't.

&gt; &gt; Or perhaps you would like to ponder how &quot;brooms&quot; can fly or why
&gt; &gt; &quot;brooms&quot; are not made with aerodynamic shapes so wizards can fly faster
&gt; &gt; or whether wizards actually use their &quot;brooms&quot; as brooms.
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; No - I am sure you spend enough time doing that for both of us.

I'm not the expert on *magic*.

Report this message

#144: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 01:39:38 by ag30476

Thom Madura wrote:
&gt; Because it remains YOU who are wrong. THis is from JKR's site
&gt;
&gt; &quot;an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
&gt; secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
&gt; the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
&gt; find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it&quot;
&gt; (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
&gt;
&gt; In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
&gt; the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
&gt; our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
&gt; - not even the subjects of the secret themselves - can divulge the
&gt; secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
&gt; Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
&gt; able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
&gt; ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
&gt; directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.
&gt;
&gt; In plain english -

Not plain enough for you. I don't know how to explain &quot;The information
is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth
impossible to find&quot; any plainer than that.

And apparently you can't understand that if the FC works the way you
assume, then you have a plot hole.

&gt; the FC made Pettigrew the ONLY person who could tell
&gt; where the Potters were hiding - no one else could do so - even one of
&gt; the Potters could not tell about the rest. Even if say Dumbledore knew
&gt; by having been told by Pettigrew - he would not have been able to tell
&gt; anyone else.
&gt;
&gt; This has nothing to do with the house disappearing - either the Potter's
&gt; house or Grimauld place.

So the house not appearing to Harry's eyes until DD gives him the paper
is not caused by the FC but some other effect? You are the expert in
*magic*.


&gt; Since virtually everyone thought that Sirius was the secret keeper =

Virtually everyone does not include Hagrid of course.

&gt; But - Dumbledore found both the house and Harry - Hagrid also found
&gt; Harry and took him to the Dursleys at Dumbledore's request.

Got it. Dumbledore found the house and Harry left and then told Hagrid
to pick up Harry.

&gt; That 12 Grimmaud place was not visible is not consistent with the FC
&gt; spell - and it must have been the result of other enchantments.

Right o' master of *magic*.

Report this message

#145: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 04:34:19 by Benjamin Esham

strom wrote:

&gt; So if the FC is performed often enough, and Secret Keepers die with their
&gt; secrets, information will slowly and irretrievably leak out of the
&gt; universe.

Holy crap... does this mean that the Fidelius Charm reverses entropy?! :-)

--
Benjamin D. Esham
<a href="mailto:bdesham&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">bdesham&#64;gmail.com</a> | AIM: bdesham128 | Jabber: same as e-mail
&quot;A time is marked not so much by ideas that are argued about as
by ideas that are taken for granted.&quot; — Lawrence Lessig

Report this message

#146: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-22 06:38:09 by Sky Rider

On 20 Jul 2006 19:39:26 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> looked at Ron with an
evil Grint in his eye and said :
&gt;Sky Rider wrote:

&gt;&gt; I didn't think he'd gone there to *stop* Voldie... but was there under
&gt;&gt; orders from him when he destroyed the Potters. Snape would have
&gt;&gt; enjoyed watching James die.

&gt;It's more likely that it was Snape that warned Dumbledore after he,
&gt;Snape, told the Dumbledore the prophecy but before Voldemort took
&gt;action. But it's really hard to tell...

We know that Snape was remorseful *after* telling his master as much
of the prophecy as he had heard. However, we also know he showed
remorse *before* the events at GH.

Question is what *was* it that he was remorseful about?

We know that he was a spy for the OoP before the downfall of Voldie so
there he could still have been at GH with Voldie... but his prior
remorse is still a real issue... *unless*... he *was* enamored of
Lily, had realised the enormity of what he'd done to the object of his
affection and had perhaps gone with Voldie to try to deflect him from
killing Lily?

There is a lot of confusion regarding timelines around this part of
the story.

&gt;&gt; I also suspect that Snape had a 'thing' for Lily and might have been
&gt;&gt; hoping to 'comfort' her after James death. As part of some 'deal',
&gt;&gt; Voldie told Snape he wouldn't kill Lily and was devastated when he
&gt;&gt; realised she'd been killed.

&gt;Although this is similar to how many interpret two clues (the hints of
&gt;Snape's feelings for Lilly at Hogwarts and Voldemort's offer to spare
&gt;Lilly), this interpretation does not really fit the characters in IMHO.

&gt;Voldemort is unlikely to make deals or spare anyone to reward a
&gt;follower. Voldemort expects obedience. His followers are deathly afraid
&gt;of him. And we see him play with their expectations, eg Pettigrew in
&gt;Gof and Narcissa and Draco in HBP.
&gt;
&gt;Snape is sharper that most DE's and seems aware of the way Voldemort
&gt;treats his followers. More importantly, there are a few hints about
&gt;Lilly's character before Godric's Hollow. And none would seem to
&gt;indicate that anyone who knew her well would expect her to accept an
&gt;offer to live in exchange for her child.

Maybe not... but we should be looking at what is motivating Severus
not whether he had any hope she's fall into line with his dreams.

&gt;&gt; Part of his hatred for Harry is that apart from him looking so much
&gt;&gt; like the hated James, he also has his mothers eyes and each time he
&gt;&gt; sees them he is reminded of his greatest treachery.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I see nothing inconsistent with anything in the books about this...
&gt;&gt; and can see Snape waiting outside the house along with Wormtail for
&gt;&gt; the deed to be done.
&gt;
&gt;It's not inconsistent as far as the text is considered. It just seems
&gt;out of character with the good Snape. Now if Snape is ultimately evil,
&gt;then it's in character.
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

Report this message

#147: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-22 06:40:13 by drusilla

Richard Eney escribió:
&gt; In article &lt;e9n049$7qb$<a href="mailto:1&#64;nntp.aioe.org" target="_blank">1&#64;nntp.aioe.org</a>&gt;, drusilla &lt;<a href="mailto:me&#64;me.net" target="_blank">me&#64;me.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; Sky Rider escribió:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; The assumptions you make in that paragraph don't hold. Likewise how do
&gt;&gt;&gt; you know he can't apparate?? We know he uses Thestrals in preference
&gt;&gt;&gt; to brooms but this is one more thing we are assuming and don't *know*.
&gt;&gt; &quot;The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid until
&gt;&gt; he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose against
&gt;&gt; the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone.&quot;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; (HP &amp; the PS, Diagon Alley)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Disapparition, anybody? Might be...
&gt;
&gt; Or a borrowed Invisibility Cloak. Or a hidden wizard (inside an Inv.Clk.)
&gt; casting a Disillusionment-Chameleon spell on Hagrid.
&gt;
&gt; =Tamar

Or an house elf came to take him :)
But it's possible, yes. Who knows if DD could have wanted to know Harry
before their 'first meet' at Hogwarts?

Report this message

#148: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 10:05:53 by Toon

On 21 Jul 2006 08:45:40 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;Richard Eney wrote:
&gt;&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;But it's funny, that regarding the FC, JK has said in an interview that
&gt;&gt; &gt;the FC dies with the SK, that the secret is bound to the soul of the
&gt;&gt; &gt;SK. What I take from this is that the FC is a very strong charm that is
&gt;&gt; &gt;nearly impossible break.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Did JKR say that? What I remember (and I could be wrong) is that
&gt;&gt; JKR said that if the secret keeper dies while the secret is still in force,
&gt;&gt; then the secret is kept forever. That's why No.12 Grimmauld Place will
&gt;&gt; someday be lost to all wizardkind, after the last person who was told
&gt;&gt; about it by DD dies.
&gt;
&gt;Sorry for adding confusion here. I think we can all agree that for the
&gt;purposes of the story, the FC is supposed to be a magical absolute.
&gt;Below is the quote from the JK Rowling site which includes both the
&gt;answers she gave interviews and a quote from PoA (page 10).

Yes, but the FC must have a way to end the spell, because not every
secret needs to be eternally kept. If James had killed V that night,
they'd need a way to end the FC, or no one could find them in their
house. THye couldn't receive owls, or sign for parcels, or anything.

If DD had lived, surely he'd have wanted to end the secret of 12GP
after Harry killed V.

Report this message

#149: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 10:06:54 by Toon

On 21 Jul 2006 14:38:10 -0700, <a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote:

&gt;The latter probably happened in Book 6 when
&gt;Harry divulged openly that 12GP was the headquarters of
&gt;the OOTP in front of the Dursleys -- Harry spoke
&gt;the words, but somehow the &quot;information&quot; never
&gt;made it into the Dursleys' brains -- instant Obliviation.

Except DD announces it.

Report this message

#150: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 11:27:03 by Aenneken

Thom Madura &lt;<a href="mailto:Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net</a>&gt; schrub in
news:qidwg.158334$<a href="mailto:mF2.153571&#64;bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.ne" target="_blank">mF2.153571&#64;bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.ne</a>
t:

&lt;snip&gt;


&gt; That 12 Grimmaud place was not visible is not consistent
&gt; with the FC spell - and it must have been the result of
&gt; other enchantments.

In OotP Sirius tells Harry: &quot;My father put every security
measure known to wizardkind on it when he lived here.
It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call...&quot;

&gt;&gt;&gt;However - the house didn't just up a disappear to anyone
&gt;&gt;&gt;not in on the secret.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Yes it did just that. 12 Grimmauld did just that.
&gt;
&gt; But not because of the FC spell.

I am going with Tom here.It disappeared because of what Sirius'
father did,DD used that when added the FC spell to the
house.

&lt;snip&gt;


Aenneken

Report this message

#151: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 13:56:54 by Thomas Madura

Toon wrote:
&gt; On 21 Jul 2006 08:45:40 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Richard Eney wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;But it's funny, that regarding the FC, JK has said in an interview that
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;the FC dies with the SK, that the secret is bound to the soul of the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;SK. What I take from this is that the FC is a very strong charm that is
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;nearly impossible break.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Did JKR say that? What I remember (and I could be wrong) is that
&gt;&gt;&gt;JKR said that if the secret keeper dies while the secret is still in force,
&gt;&gt;&gt;then the secret is kept forever. That's why No.12 Grimmauld Place will
&gt;&gt;&gt;someday be lost to all wizardkind, after the last person who was told
&gt;&gt;&gt;about it by DD dies.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Sorry for adding confusion here. I think we can all agree that for the
&gt;&gt;purposes of the story, the FC is supposed to be a magical absolute.
&gt;&gt;Below is the quote from the JK Rowling site which includes both the
&gt;&gt;answers she gave interviews and a quote from PoA (page 10).
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Yes, but the FC must have a way to end the spell, because not every
&gt; secret needs to be eternally kept. If James had killed V that night,
&gt; they'd need a way to end the FC, or no one could find them in their
&gt; house. THye couldn't receive owls, or sign for parcels, or anything.
&gt;
&gt; If DD had lived, surely he'd have wanted to end the secret of 12GP
&gt; after Harry killed V.

JKR has already defined the end of the spell.

SHe said that the spell remains in force as it was as of the death of
the secret keeper - ie - the only people who know the secret are those
the secret keeper told in life - which now cannot be added to.

Report this message

#152: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 14:00:49 by DaveD

&quot;Thom Madura&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:qidwg.158334$<a href="mailto:mF2.153571&#64;bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net..." target="_blank">mF2.153571&#64;bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...</a>
&gt; <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; Thom Madura wrote:
&gt; &gt;

&gt; That 12 Grimmaud place was not visible is not consistent with the FC
&gt; spell - and it must have been the result of other enchantments.

I agree - otherwise mischief makers could make secrets of all sorts of
things, eg the location of MoM or Gringotts, and bingo - no-one would be
able to get there! Instant blackmail - we've just FCed your workplace; give
us some money to reverse it or your business is history :) Or even FCing a
person: you and a mate agree to FC someone like the MoM himself, or Dd, and
suddenly no-one could see them. I don't think so.

Rather, the secret is that 12GP is the HQ of OoTP, or GH is the hiding place
of the Potters. After all, 12GP was unplottable so perhaps that's why it
also disappeared if you didn't know about it or where to look (pretty much
the same as the Leaky Cauldron on Charing Cross Road is invisible to
muggles. I should know - I get my bus home after the gym from CXRd and I've
never seen it!

And if the books disagree with any of that, then they're just wrong :-P


&gt; &gt;&gt;People would notice a house gone.
&gt; &gt;&gt;Especially those who lived there - or near there. A good example would
&gt; &gt;&gt;be if Narcissus found that her family house had disappeared. SHe would
&gt; &gt;&gt;not be in on the OOP secret but since the house was part of her family -
&gt; &gt;&gt;it would be obvious to her that a &quot;secret&quot; was there if the house just
&gt; &gt;&gt;up and was gone.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Yes Narcissa would know *about* her family house. But she could not
&gt; &gt; *find* it. See it's magic.

And it's been made unplottable.


&gt; That IS my point.
&gt;
&gt; If Narcissus could not FIND the house - it would immediatly point out
&gt; that the house was part of a secret.


But because the secret's been FCed, no-one would be able to work that out or
pass it on - they'd keep forgetting or get tongue-tied or something.


&gt; More important - what you are saying is that if the DE's met in
&gt; Narcissus' house and Draco did not know the secret - that Draco would
&gt; not be able to find his own Home - rubbish.

Exactly - you could cause no end of trouble FCing common things if that
caused them to disappear.


&gt; &gt; Or perhaps you would like to ponder how &quot;brooms&quot; can fly or why
&gt; &gt; &quot;brooms&quot; are not made with aerodynamic shapes so wizards can fly faster
&gt; &gt; or whether wizards actually use their &quot;brooms&quot; as brooms.

How about an aerodynamic charm instead (also, the wizard's the most
unaerodynamic thing about the broom - far great surface area than a broom
and a worse shape) - much more likely in a magical world.


DaveD

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#153: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 14:01:12 by Thomas Madura

Aenneken wrote:

&gt; Thom Madura &lt;<a href="mailto:Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net</a>&gt; schrub in
&gt; news:qidwg.158334$<a href="mailto:mF2.153571&#64;bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.ne" target="_blank">mF2.153571&#64;bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.ne</a>
&gt; t:
&gt;
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;That 12 Grimmaud place was not visible is not consistent
&gt;&gt;with the FC spell - and it must have been the result of
&gt;&gt;other enchantments.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; In OotP Sirius tells Harry: &quot;My father put every security
&gt; measure known to wizardkind on it when he lived here.
&gt; It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call...&quot;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;However - the house didn't just up a disappear to anyone
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;not in on the secret.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Yes it did just that. 12 Grimmauld did just that.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;But not because of the FC spell.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I am going with Tom here.It disappeared because of what Sirius'
&gt; father did,DD used that when added the FC spell to the
&gt; house.
&gt;
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Aenneken



Thank You


THe fact is - we KNOW what the secret was for the OOP. It was directly
on the paper given to Harry - last page - chapter three in the OOP -

&quot; The headquarters fo the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number
twelve, Grimmauld Place, London.&quot;

It is not the location of the house - it is the location of the
headquarters of the OOP. THerefore - the location of the house is not
secret - nor do I believe a FC spell could make it secret anyway.

Report this message

#154: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 14:11:54 by Thomas Madura

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt; Thom Madura wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;And wizards and flying broom are *NOT* stupid.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;They are part of the story - as is the FC spell.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; And they fly the way you think they fly.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Yes Narcissa would know *about* her family house. But she could not
&gt;&gt;&gt;*find* it. See it's magic.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;That IS my point.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; It's not going to be about the missing plot hole that you created is
&gt; it?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;If Narcissus could not FIND the house - it would immediately point out
&gt;&gt;that the house was part of a secret.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Nope it wasn't.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Or perhaps you would like to ponder how &quot;brooms&quot; can fly or why
&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;brooms&quot; are not made with aerodynamic shapes so wizards can fly faster
&gt;&gt;&gt;or whether wizards actually use their &quot;brooms&quot; as brooms.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;No - I am sure you spend enough time doing that for both of us.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I'm not the expert on *magic*.
&gt;
You were the one who brought up brooms.


AS I point out in another post to Anneken, the secret was not the
location of the house - it was the where the OOP met - just as I said.

It was directly on the paper given to Harry - last page - chapter three
in the OOP -

&quot; The headquarters fo the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number
twelve, Grimmauld Place, London.&quot;


AND as Anneken pointed out - from OOP - the enchantments on 12 Grimmauld
place were not from the FC

&quot;My father put every security measure known to wizardkind on it when
he lived here.It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call...&quot;

Report this message

#155: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 14:14:33 by Thomas Madura

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt; Thom Madura wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Because it remains YOU who are wrong. THis is from JKR's site
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&quot;an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
&gt;&gt;secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
&gt;&gt;the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
&gt;&gt;find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it&quot;
&gt;&gt;(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
&gt;&gt;the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
&gt;&gt;our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
&gt;&gt;- not even the subjects of the secret themselves - can divulge the
&gt;&gt;secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
&gt;&gt;Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
&gt;&gt;able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
&gt;&gt;ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
&gt;&gt;directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;In plain english -
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Not plain enough for you. I don't know how to explain &quot;The information
&gt; is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth
&gt; impossible to find&quot; any plainer than that.
&gt;
&gt; And apparently you can't understand that if the FC works the way you
&gt; assume, then you have a plot hole.

No plot hole - you have the wrong &quot;secret&quot;.

&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;the FC made Pettigrew the ONLY person who could tell
&gt;&gt;where the Potters were hiding - no one else could do so - even one of
&gt;&gt;the Potters could not tell about the rest. Even if say Dumbledore knew
&gt;&gt;by having been told by Pettigrew - he would not have been able to tell
&gt;&gt;anyone else.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;This has nothing to do with the house disappearing - either the Potter's
&gt;&gt;house or Grimauld place.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; So the house not appearing to Harry's eyes until DD gives him the paper
&gt; is not caused by the FC but some other effect? You are the expert in
&gt; *magic*.


AS Anneken pointed out - that was from Sirius' fathers spells - not from
the FC.


&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Since virtually everyone thought that Sirius was the secret keeper =
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Virtually everyone does not include Hagrid of course. (

No - only Sirius knew that Pettigrew was the secret keeper because it
was he who convinced James to do it.

Report this message

#156: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 17:46:57 by ag30476

Aenneken wrote:
&gt; In OotP Sirius tells Harry: &quot;My father put every security
&gt; measure known to wizardkind on it when he lived here.
&gt; It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call...&quot;

&quot;...except the Fidelius Charm of course. That was Dumbledore's idea.&quot;

So &quot;every security measure&quot; does not include an FC.

Look, here Sirius is clearly talking in figuratively. It is used by JKR
to emphasize that the house is safe. It is not meant to show how magic
works.

&gt; I am going with Tom here.It disappeared because of what Sirius'
&gt; father did,DD used that when added the FC spell to the
&gt; house.

Do you understand that you are arguing here for how an imaginary magic
system works. That is you ar arguing taht 12 Grimmauld did not appear
to Harry because of X spell but because of Y spell in conjunction with
X spell.

You are arguing the X spell has properties A, B, C from a description
of of the spell in a few English sentences, a description which at the
same time is so vague and comprehensive that you cannot determine what
X applies to and what it does not apply to.

In the real world, our world, you can hide objects or encrypt messages
but because we know how things int the real world work, we don't have
the same problems.

Let me give you another simple example of this because it seems that
people have difficulty understand when the problem arises from within
the context of an HP story.

RL: Airplanes are devices used to fly.
HP: Brooms are devices used to fly.

Question: You can use the flying device to (however slowly) get to the
moon (assuming you take the appropriate air supply and life
protection).

RL answer: By airplanes we normally mean fixed-winged aircraft using
internal, combustion or jet engines. Due to constraints from
engineering and physical laws, these craft are (up to now) limited to
operations within the lower atmosphere

HP answer: ???

With the FC charm we are in the same situation. The FC charm is only
describe in a couple of English sentences in PoA. It is further
elaborated on by JK in an interview where she gives really only one new
piece of information.

Report this message

#157: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 18:21:54 by ag30476

DaveD wrote:
&gt; &gt; That 12 Grimmaud place was not visible is not consistent with the FC
&gt; &gt; spell - and it must have been the result of other enchantments.
&gt;
&gt; I agree - otherwise mischief makers could make secrets of all sorts of
&gt; things, eg the location of MoM or Gringotts, and bingo - no-one would be
&gt; able to get there! Instant blackmail - we've just FCed your workplace; give
&gt; us some money to reverse it or your business is history :) Or even FCing a
&gt; person: you and a mate agree to FC someone like the MoM himself, or Dd, and
&gt; suddenly no-one could see them. I don't think so.

This is thinking *too* much about *magic* and not allowing your
*suspension of disbelief* to work for the *world assumptions* of the
story. Sorry for all the emphasis but really it is a story. Arguing how
the FC works is like arguing how Star Trek warp drives work.

You yourself said that there must be a check on misused of the FC
inappropriately. Yo point to it's use as blackmail. Someone else
earlier in the thread pointed to the need to protect against it's
destructive/anarchistic disuse. Suppose you used the FC to hide the
fact that 1 + 1 = 2. Wha affect woudl that have? Does everything you
crate need an anti-FC charm. Or does the FC charm have built-in
limitations? And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

&gt; Rather, the secret is that 12GP is the HQ of OoTP, or GH is the hiding place
&gt; of the Potters. After all, 12GP was unplottable so perhaps that's why it
&gt; also disappeared if you didn't know about it or where to look (pretty much
&gt; the same as the Leaky Cauldron on Charing Cross Road is invisible to
&gt; muggles. I should know - I get my bus home after the gym from CXRd and I've
&gt; never seen it!

But why assume that? This is a story. A magical story. The FC is meant
to be a way to hide from magical enemies...that is all. It's a way that
is supersecret - unbreakable - except for 1 major weakeness - you have
to trust the secret keeper.

And these effect two effect (hides you but not if the secret keeper
tells) are the important to the story. How exactly it works we are not
meant to think about.

Harry is handed a piece of paper, 12 Grimmauld appears. The easiest
assumption is that that is the effect of 12 Grimmauld. With the death
of DD, we can assume the secret is safe...eventhough Bellatirx asks
Snape about the location of the OotP HQ...even if Narcissa decides to
pay a visit to her familie's old house.

&gt; &gt; &gt; Yes Narcissa would know *about* her family house. But she could not
&gt; &gt; &gt; *find* it. See it's magic.
&gt;
&gt; And it's been made unplottable.

You are the making it un-plot-able.

If you are going to be an expert on magic then you must do a good job.
According to you, &quot;Unplottability&quot; protects against someone who did'nt
know the house from seeing the house, ie Harry or a muggle. Because you
said the house didn't appear to Harry do to the revelation of the FC
but because of the &quot;unplottability&quot;. So knowledge about the house is
kept from Harry by the FC and it's location is made secret by the
&quot;unplottabiility&quot;. But once Harry knows the FC, he knows about the
house and synergistically can find it though it is &quot;unplotatble&quot;.
Narcissa knows about the house. So the FC does not work on her. But
because it is &quot;unplottable&quot; she can't find it now that the FC is in
place though presumably she could find her family's house before the
FC. So the &quot;unplottability&quot; protects 12 Grimmauld from Narcissa even
though she does not fall under the FC spell and knows about the house.
I think you will find a good argument with out other resident *magic*
expert..

&gt; &gt; If Narcissus could not FIND the house - it would immediatly point out
&gt; &gt; that the house was part of a secret.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; But because the secret's been FCed, no-one would be able to work that out or
&gt; pass it on - they'd keep forgetting or get tongue-tied or something.

So then why do we need &quot;unplottability&quot; at all?

&gt; &gt; More important - what you are saying is that if the DE's met in
&gt; &gt; Narcissus' house and Draco did not know the secret - that Draco would
&gt; &gt; not be able to find his own Home - rubbish.
&gt;
&gt; Exactly - you could cause no end of trouble FCing common things if that
&gt; caused them to disappear.

And why doesn't DD use the time-turner himself to fix all problems? And
why...and why...if you stop to think about all the implications of
magic and what you could do you end thinking all of HP is rubbish
because it is.

Sorry for shouting but

MAGIC IN THE HP WORLD IS NOT CONSISTENT BECAUSE IT IS THE MAGICAL
TECHNOLOGY OF AN IMAGINARY WORLD.

See making the imaginary magic/technology of a fantasy universe
consistent is impossible for a writer. But telling a believable and
entertaining story is not.

&gt; How about an aerodynamic charm instead (also, the wizard's the most
&gt; unaerodynamic thing about the broom - far great surface area than a broom
&gt; and a worse shape) - much more likely in a magical world.

How about it indeed.

Report this message

#158: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 18:28:36 by ag30476

Thom Madura wrote:
&gt; &quot; The headquarters fo the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number
&gt; twelve, Grimmauld Place, London.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; It is not the location of the house - it is the location of the
&gt; headquarters of the OOP. THerefore - the location of the house is not
&gt; secret - nor do I believe a FC spell could make it secret anyway.

So Narcissa can't find the house if she is looking for the OotP HQ but
id she decides to visit her family home she thinks &quot;The family home is
at 12 Grimmauld.&quot; And there it is just like she would think. Because if
she can't see it she knows something is up.

Then she walks in and sees Hagrid. Bamf. House disappears now she
doesn't know it.

Or maybe she can't see Hagrid at all. It's as if the OotP'ers and their
stuff are invisible to her. Of course they did clean out the place so
Narcissa puts two and two together...Bamf. House disappears now she
doesn't know it.

Is that the way it works? I defer to you on questions of *magic*.

Report this message

#159: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 18:50:40 by ag30476

Thom Madura wrote:
&gt; You were the one who brought up brooms.

And some people say cucumbers taste better pickled.

&gt; AS I point out in another post to Anneken, the secret was not the
&gt; location of the house - it was the where the OOP met - just as I said.
&gt;
&gt; It was directly on the paper given to Harry - last page - chapter three
&gt; in the OOP -
&gt;
&gt; &quot; The headquarters fo the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number
&gt; twelve, Grimmauld Place, London.&quot;

OK let me get this straight. Some other spell X was cast by Sirius'
unclue before the FC was cast. Spell X makes the house invisible to
Harry because he does not know the about the house. The FC let's him
know about the address. The house appears. So the FC and the spell X
are an effective means of pretecting the house against Harry. Good to
know.

Narcissa knows abouut the house. If she goes to the house she will see
it. Suppose there are no OotP'ers inside and they took all their stuff
temporarily out. She walks in no problem. If Hagrid walks in then what.
Does Hagrid disappear? Does Hagrid disappear if she thinks the house is
the OotP HQ? If not, an she tell V? You must know suppose other spell
effects to explain what happens.

It is simplext to assume from the PoA descrition that once the FC is
cast, the house is safe from the DE's unless the SK betrays. The DE's
can't find it at all (how that is possible is left up to *magic*
experts).

&gt; AND as Anneken pointed out - from OOP - the enchantments on 12 Grimmauld
&gt; place were not from the FC
&gt;
&gt; &quot;My father put every security measure known to wizardkind on it when
&gt; he lived here.It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call...&quot;

I guess you too failed to see how &quot;every security measure known&quot; does
not include the FC.

You also missed how unplottability protect from muggles and non-muggles
(Harry could not see the house because of unplottabilty not the FC
according to you).

I don't blame you. It's JKR who makes no sense the way she wrote what
Sirius said. Despite that error on her part, she still wrote a good
*story*, no?

Report this message

#160: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 19:10:49 by ag30476

Thom Madura wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; And apparently you can't understand that if the FC works the way you
&gt; &gt; assume, then you have a plot hole.
&gt;
&gt; No plot hole - you have the wrong &quot;secret&quot;.

Let's see if we can Tivo though this exchange

ag: The plot hole created when Narcissa coms to look at the family
home.

Thom: If Narcissa comes, she can find the house but not the OotP'ers
inside.

ag: The why does Bellatirx ask Snape about the location?

Thom: JKR made a mistake.

ag: Exactly

&gt; &gt; So the house not appearing to Harry's eyes until DD gives him the paper
&gt; &gt; is not caused by the FC but some other effect? You are the expert in
&gt; &gt; *magic*.
&gt;
&gt; AS Anneken pointed out - that was from Sirius' fathers spells - not from
&gt; the FC.

Spells that have synergystic effects with the FC and need even more
asumptions to explain what happens in unforseen circunstances - all
unecessay for story purposes.

&gt; &gt; Virtually everyone does not include Hagrid of course. (
&gt;
&gt; No - only Sirius knew that Pettigrew was the secret keeper because it
&gt; was he who convinced James to do it.

Try to follow. You said &quot;Since virtually everyone thought that Sirius
was the secret keeper&quot; in the context of the night at Godric's Hollow.

If everyone thought the secret keeper was Sirius that night when the
curse backfired then Hagrid would have suspected Sirius of treachery.
It is only after that night that Hagrid learns (falsely) that Sirius
was the sercret keeper. When he does find out, he feels remorse at not
catching Sirius when he had a chance that night.

So Hagrid did not think (falsely) that Sirius was the secret keeper.
But you calimed that virtually everyone thought (falsely) that Siris
was the secret keeper...so virtually everyone does not include Hagrid
that night.

Thus your 1st supposition for you argument

&quot;Since virtually everyone thought that Sirius was the secret keeper =
only Sirius knew - then if the Potter house disappeared(as you
suggest)
- then Dumbledore would not have been able to find it that night since
he was not in on the secret - Hagrid would also have not been able to
find the house - and they would not have been able to find Baby Harry -

unless Pettigrew told them where to find him.&quot;

makes no sense.

It was a nitpick. I did not bother to explain how I explain that Hagrid
got to the hosue because I have done so ad nauseum in this thread.

Report this message

#161: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 20:44:17 by Aenneken

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> schrub in
news:<a href="mailto:1153583217.222979.253870&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153583217.222979.253870&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com</a>:

&gt;
&gt; Aenneken wrote:
&gt;&gt; In OotP Sirius tells Harry: &quot;My father put every security
&gt;&gt; measure known to wizardkind on it when he lived here.
&gt;&gt; It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call...&quot;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;...except the Fidelius Charm of course. That was Dumbledore's idea.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; So &quot;every security measure&quot; does not include an FC.
&gt;
&gt; Look, here Sirius is clearly talking in figuratively. It is used by JKR
&gt; to emphasize that the house is safe. It is not meant to show how magic
&gt; works.

So when Sirius says.&quot;It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and
call...&quot; he is clearly talking figuratively?
Well,I agree to disagree here.

&gt;&gt; I am going with Tom here.It disappeared because of what Sirius'
&gt;&gt; father did,DD used that when added the FC spell to the
&gt;&gt; house.
&gt;
&gt; Do you understand that you are arguing here for how an imaginary magic
&gt; system works. That is you ar arguing taht 12 Grimmauld did not appear
&gt; to Harry because of X spell but because of Y spell in conjunction with
&gt; X spell.

Since in PoA it is said &quot;As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-
Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years
and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their
sitting room window!&quot; I assumed that the house where the Potters were hiding
was visible. So the secret could not have been the village where they were
hiding or the exact place but that the Potters were hiding at that place.
The same goes for 12GP.The secret is not the exact location but that the OotP
has its headquaters there.

And yes,I do think GP12 is invisible to Harry at first because it was made
unplottable and he needed to know it existed before he could see it.

But in the End I am just guessing and I don't really care if I am right or
wrong,it's fun and that's it.



&lt;snip&gt;

Aenneken

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#162: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 22:20:23 by maxx2112

&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; done said:


&gt;&gt; I agree - otherwise mischief makers could make secrets of all sorts of
&gt;&gt; things, eg the location of MoM or Gringotts, and bingo - no-one would be
&gt;&gt; able to get there! Instant blackmail - we've just FCed your workplace; give
&gt;&gt; us some money to reverse it or your business is history :) Or even FCing a
&gt;&gt; person: you and a mate agree to FC someone like the MoM himself, or Dd, and
&gt;&gt; suddenly no-one could see them. I don't think so.
&gt;
&gt; This is thinking *too* much about *magic* and not allowing your
&gt; *suspension of disbelief* to work for the *world assumptions* of the
&gt; story. Sorry for all the emphasis but really it is a story. Arguing how
&gt; the FC works is like arguing how Star Trek warp drives work.


They work by warping local space so the physical distance traveled by the
warp-driven craft is significantly less than that of the actual, linear
distance. This is not the same as hyper-drive, which drops the craft in and
out of &quot;normal&quot; three dimensional space.

Now the transporters . . . there's an argument!

Heisenberg compensators? I bet!



- Max -
=======
Any sufficiently advanced technology
is indistinguishable from magic. - AC Clarke

Report this message

#163: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 22:27:31 by ag30476

Aenneken wrote:
&gt; &gt; Aenneken wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; In OotP Sirius tells Harry: &quot;My father put every security
&gt; &gt;&gt; measure known to wizardkind on it when he lived here.
&gt; &gt;&gt; It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call...&quot;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;...except the Fidelius Charm of course. That was Dumbledore's idea.&quot;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; So &quot;every security measure&quot; does not include an FC.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Look, here Sirius is clearly talking in figuratively. It is used by JKR
&gt; &gt; to emphasize that the house is safe. It is not meant to show how magic
&gt; &gt; works.
&gt;
&gt; So when Sirius says.&quot;It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and
&gt; call...&quot; he is clearly talking figuratively?
&gt; Well,I agree to disagree here.

Except if you do the Sirius says &quot;It's unplottable,so Muggles could
never come and call&quot;

Not it's unplottable, so people who don't know about the place
including the wizard Harry could never come calling.

So here Sirus must be speaking figuratively for YOU to let YOU mean
that unplottable makes it disappear for Harry,.

And as I said before,. when Sirius says &quot;every security measure known&quot;
he means &quot;every security measure known except the FC.&quot;

So again, sirius must be speaking figuratvely for YOU to let you mean
that Sirius does indeed mea the house has many enchantments which is
what you said.

You don't acknowledge that you are taking Sirius figuratively.

And then you make firther assumptions in which unspecified protection
spells, unplottability - whatever that is - and the FC work together -
something which wasn't intended by Sirius's father when he cast the
original spells.

And then you don't acknowledge that either,

That is what you mean by 'agree to disagree'.

&gt; &gt;&gt; I am going with Tom here.It disappeared because of what Sirius'
&gt; &gt;&gt; father did,DD used that when added the FC spell to the
&gt; &gt;&gt; house.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Do you understand that you are arguing here for how an imaginary magic
&gt; &gt; system works. That is you ar arguing taht 12 Grimmauld did not appear
&gt; &gt; to Harry because of X spell but because of Y spell in conjunction with
&gt; &gt; X spell.
&gt;
&gt; Since in PoA it is said &quot;As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-
&gt; Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years
&gt; and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their
&gt; sitting room window!&quot;

Again, another figure of speech.If you think about it, it makes little
sense if it worked this way.

Suppose the FC worked this way, that you could somehow find the house
at 12 Grimmauld or GH and press your nose to the window. And that you
can't see the people hiding inside.

If I can press my eye to the window, I can just be outside looking at
the house. Say Hagrid leaves the house at 12 Grimmauld while I'm
looking at it. Does he *poof* appear. No, that would make me suspicious
of the secret. So I guess he walks away a few feet and *poof * he
appears. How many feet? Can I figure out that he's *poofing* in and out
between 8 and 14 Grimmauld?

Now I go press my nose against the window. No one is in the house.
Presumably I cannot se thre possessions either. Can I see the old
stuff? The old stuff has been moved around or removed but I can see no
one. I see what I recognize is an old Black family chair. Somthing
invisible moves it. Can I see the chair move. Or *poof* does the chair
vanish along with my abitlity to recognize that the chair has vanished.

Suppose I say think for some reason that this must be the OotP HQ? As a
good DE, I go rushing in to cast curses on everyone. yet onece inside,
I cannot see the OotP'ers but they can see me. Obviously, I would never
want to go inside the HQ if this was the case. Obviously then,
Bellatrix would not ask Snape about the HQ becuase the not-so-stupid
DE's would never got the FC protected house and make themselevs so
vulnerable.

Does this seem like too much analysis of the way it works? It is. But
you started it - that is you started along the path of how magic works
in the HP world.

It is much simpler to assume that the FC very plainly and simply
prevents anyone not in on the secret from finding the house unless the
FC tells them. That way, Narcissa can't accidentally discover the
house. That way, if Narcissa presses her nose against the window we
don't have to suppoe an invisibility effect. That way DE's can talk
about wanting to find the house - but they can't. Similarly with that
one assumption, people can talk about the Potters hiding in the village
of GH without ever being able to find the house.

How exactly does the FC &quot;prevents anyone not in on the secret from
finding the house unless the FC tells them&quot;? Who cares? It's magic.

The important point are the PLOT points
- the Potters were safe until THE weakness of the FC betrayed them
- the OotP HQ is a safe haven the DE's will never find

&gt; I assumed that the house where the Potters were hiding
&gt; was visible.

At least you admit this aassumption

&gt; So the secret could not have been the village where they were
&gt; hiding or the exact place but that the Potters were hiding at that place.

But people were talking about that fact after the night at Godric's
Hollow, so McGonogall informs us. So you must further assume/deduce
that the FC was broken in some way after the curse backfired.

&gt; The same goes for 12GP.The secret is not the exact location but that the OotP
&gt; has its headquaters there.

Sigh...then as I have said repeatedly...the FC or some other spell must
protect the house from Narcissa going there and saying &quot;Hey something
funny here.&quot;

&gt; And yes,I do think GP12 is invisible to Harry at first because it was made
&gt; unplottable and he needed to know it existed before he could see it.

Sigh...but unplottability (whatever that is) is literally said to be a
protection against muggles. You are also saying it makes the house
invisible to a non-muggle who did not know the FC and had never been
there.

&gt; But in the End I am just guessing and I don't really care if I am right or
&gt; wrong,it's fun and that's it.

Well here I can't disagree. If it's fun for you coming up with ways
that the magic in HP world works then by all means.

I prefer trying to figure out the backstory - that is the game I enjoy.

To each hos own. It's a matter of taste.

Report this message

#164: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 22:38:16 by ag30476

Max C. Webster III wrote:
&gt; They work by warping local space so the physical distance traveled by the
&gt; warp-driven craft is significantly less than that of the actual, linear
&gt; distance.

Yes it was all quite clear after reading
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_%28Star_Trek%29" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_%28Star_Trek%29</a>

and
<a href="http://www.calormen.com/Star_Trek/FAQs/warp-faq.htm" target="_blank">http://www.calormen.com/Star_Trek/FAQs/warp-faq.htm</a>

All that reading proved one thing to me...I'm still not the world's
greatest geek :(

Report this message

#165: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 22:40:21 by DaveD

&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153585314.849310.266260&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153585314.849310.266260&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; DaveD wrote:

[big snip]

&gt; Sorry for shouting but
&gt;
&gt; MAGIC IN THE HP WORLD IS NOT CONSISTENT BECAUSE IT IS THE MAGICAL
&gt; TECHNOLOGY OF AN IMAGINARY WORLD.


Erm, might I suggest you may be taking this a bit too seriously?

Of course, the more consistent JKR's &quot;rules&quot; of magic are, the more
enjoyable are the books - random inconsistent magic would be boring and
annoying. Of course, there may be a few mistakes or inconsistencies here and
there, but it's fun playing with what we've been told so far to try and
explain situations or extrapolate from them and possibly work out a few
clues for book 7. I'm sorry if you don't enjoy that but I don't think that's
grounds for shouting etc.

Perhaps we should draw this thread to a close before a flamewar starts :)

DaveD

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#166: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 23:04:45 by ag30476

DaveD wrote:
&gt; Erm, might I suggest you may be taking this a bit too seriously?

Sorry for all the shouting (I did apolgize ahead of time too) but the
discussion has gone from a discussion of plot - and I do thank everyone
for trying to debunk my reconstruction - to a nitpicking over magic.

&gt; Of course, the more consistent JKR's &quot;rules&quot; of magic are, the more
&gt; enjoyable are the books - random inconsistent magic would be boring and
&gt; annoying. Of course, there may be a few mistakes or inconsistencies here and
&gt; there, but it's fun playing with what we've been told so far to try and
&gt; explain situations or extrapolate from them and possibly work out a few
&gt; clues for book 7. I'm sorry if you don't enjoy that but I don't think that's
&gt; grounds for shouting etc.

I realize FC charm is widely a debated topic. For me, magical mechanics
after a certain point it becomes pointless. Not even JKR has worked all
the points of magic out. Of course, if such argument is fun for you,
please continue.

JKR has worked out the storyline ahead of time - figuring that out is
more fun for me. But hey to each his one

&gt; Perhaps we should draw this thread to a close before a flamewar
starts :)

Well I did sort of want some flames - and I did get some. Troel's,
gjw's, Tamar's SkyRiders and others were good post and fun too - at
least for me.

But this how FC works crap...I'll let whoever wants have the last
crap...er words.

Report this message

#167: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-22 23:59:27 by Sky Rider

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:56:54 GMT, Thom Madura
&lt;<a href="mailto:Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net</a>&gt; looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
eye and said :
&gt;Toon wrote:
&gt;&gt; On 21 Jul 2006 08:45:40 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;Richard Eney wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt;SHe said that the spell remains in force as it was as of the death of
&gt;the secret keeper - ie - the only people who know the secret are those
&gt;the secret keeper told in life - which now cannot be added to.

So... since DD was secret keeper for the OoP headquarters it's now
wide open to attack??
--

Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
<a href="http://www.australianopinion.com" target="_blank">http://www.australianopinion.com</a>

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#168: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 02:11:10 by Thomas Madura

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Aenneken wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;In OotP Sirius tells Harry: &quot;My father put every security
&gt;&gt;measure known to wizardkind on it when he lived here.
&gt;&gt;It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call...&quot;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;...except the Fidelius Charm of course. That was Dumbledore's idea.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; So &quot;every security measure&quot; does not include an FC.
&gt;
&gt; Look, here Sirius is clearly talking in figuratively. It is used by JKR
&gt; to emphasize that the house is safe. It is not meant to show how magic
&gt; works.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;I am going with Tom here.It disappeared because of what Sirius'
&gt;&gt;father did,DD used that when added the FC spell to the
&gt;&gt;house.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Do you understand that you are arguing here for how an imaginary magic
&gt; system works. That is you ar arguing taht 12 Grimmauld did not appear
&gt; to Harry because of X spell but because of Y spell in conjunction with
&gt; X spell.
&gt;
&gt; You are arguing the X spell has properties A, B, C from a description
&gt; of of the spell in a few English sentences, a description which at the
&gt; same time is so vague and comprehensive that you cannot determine what
&gt; X applies to and what it does not apply to.


No - the FC charm description is quite specific. It is a spell that
binds a &quot;secret&quot; to one single person. Afterwards - no one else may
reveal that secret except the &quot;secret keeper&quot;.

If you look at the name of the spell itself - Fidelity is implied. So -
the spell involves people - not objects.

No spell is needed to give a house Fidelity - it can neither KNOW a
secret - keep a secret - or tell a secret. THerefore - it is always
faithful. In fact - one could not use the FC spell on a house. It is not
a person - nor could it ever tell anyone the secret - even if they were
supposed to learn it.

Report this message

#169: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 02:15:18 by Thomas Madura

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt; DaveD wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;That 12 Grimmaud place was not visible is not consistent with the FC
&gt;&gt;&gt;spell - and it must have been the result of other enchantments.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;I agree - otherwise mischief makers could make secrets of all sorts of
&gt;&gt;things, eg the location of MoM or Gringotts, and bingo - no-one would be
&gt;&gt;able to get there! Instant blackmail - we've just FCed your workplace; give
&gt;&gt;us some money to reverse it or your business is history :) Or even FCing a
&gt;&gt;person: you and a mate agree to FC someone like the MoM himself, or Dd, and
&gt;&gt;suddenly no-one could see them. I don't think so.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; This is thinking *too* much about *magic* and not allowing your
&gt; *suspension of disbelief* to work for the *world assumptions* of the
&gt; story. Sorry for all the emphasis but really it is a story. Arguing how
&gt; the FC works is like arguing how Star Trek warp drives work.
&gt;
&gt; You yourself said that there must be a check on misused of the FC
&gt; inappropriately. Yo point to it's use as blackmail. Someone else
&gt; earlier in the thread pointed to the need to protect against it's
&gt; destructive/anarchistic disuse. Suppose you used the FC to hide the
&gt; fact that 1 + 1 = 2. Wha affect woudl that have? Does everything you
&gt; crate need an anti-FC charm. Or does the FC charm have built-in
&gt; limitations? And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Rather, the secret is that 12GP is the HQ of OoTP, or GH is the hiding place
&gt;&gt;of the Potters. After all, 12GP was unplottable so perhaps that's why it
&gt;&gt;also disappeared if you didn't know about it or where to look (pretty much
&gt;&gt;the same as the Leaky Cauldron on Charing Cross Road is invisible to
&gt;&gt;muggles. I should know - I get my bus home after the gym from CXRd and I've
&gt;&gt;never seen it!
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; But why assume that? This is a story. A magical story. The FC is meant
&gt; to be a way to hide from magical enemies...that is all. It's a way that
&gt; is supersecret - unbreakable - except for 1 major weakeness - you have
&gt; to trust the secret keeper.
&gt;
&gt; And these effect two effect (hides you but not if the secret keeper
&gt; tells) are the important to the story. How exactly it works we are not
&gt; meant to think about.
&gt;
&gt; Harry is handed a piece of paper, 12 Grimmauld appears. The easiest
&gt; assumption is that that is the effect of 12 Grimmauld. With the death
&gt; of DD, we can assume the secret is safe...eventhough Bellatirx asks
&gt; Snape about the location of the OotP HQ...even if Narcissa decides to
&gt; pay a visit to her familie's old house.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Yes Narcissa would know *about* her family house. But she could not
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;*find* it. See it's magic.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;And it's been made unplottable.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; You are the making it un-plot-able.
&gt;
&gt; If you are going to be an expert on magic then you must do a good job.
&gt; According to you, &quot;Unplottability&quot; protects against someone who did'nt
&gt; know the house from seeing the house, ie Harry or a muggle. Because you
&gt; said the house didn't appear to Harry do to the revelation of the FC
&gt; but because of the &quot;unplottability&quot;. So knowledge about the house is
&gt; kept from Harry by the FC and it's location is made secret by the
&gt; &quot;unplottabiility&quot;. But once Harry knows the FC, he knows about the
&gt; house and synergistically can find it though it is &quot;unplotatble&quot;.
&gt; Narcissa knows about the house. So the FC does not work on her. But
&gt; because it is &quot;unplottable&quot; she can't find it now that the FC is in
&gt; place though presumably she could find her family's house before the
&gt; FC. So the &quot;unplottability&quot; protects 12 Grimmauld from Narcissa even
&gt; though she does not fall under the FC spell and knows about the house.
&gt; I think you will find a good argument with out other resident *magic*
&gt; expert..



Unplottability has NOTHING to do with the FC spell. In fact - the spell
has nothing to do with the &quot;secret&quot; itself - which could be anything.
THe FC spell binds the secret to a single person - and from that point
on - only the &quot;secret Keeper&quot; may reveal the secret to others.

Report this message

#170: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 02:25:43 by Thomas Madura

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt; Thom Madura wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&quot; The headquarters fo the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number
&gt;&gt;twelve, Grimmauld Place, London.&quot;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;It is not the location of the house - it is the location of the
&gt;&gt;headquarters of the OOP. THerefore - the location of the house is not
&gt;&gt;secret - nor do I believe a FC spell could make it secret anyway.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; So Narcissa can't find the house if she is looking for the OotP HQ but
&gt; id she decides to visit her family home she thinks &quot;The family home is
&gt; at 12 Grimmauld.&quot; And there it is just like she would think. Because if
&gt; she can't see it she knows something is up.
&gt;
&gt; Then she walks in and sees Hagrid. Bamf. House disappears now she
&gt; doesn't know it.
&gt;
&gt; Or maybe she can't see Hagrid at all. It's as if the OotP'ers and their
&gt; stuff are invisible to her. Of course they did clean out the place so
&gt; Narcissa puts two and two together...Bamf. House disappears now she
&gt; doesn't know it.
&gt;
&gt; Is that the way it works? I defer to you on questions of *magic*.
&gt;


WHile the house disappearing might be a way to keep a secret - it has
nothing to do with the FC spell.

For example - Dumbledore - who knows where the MOM is - could make a FC
saying that the OOP now meets at the MOM offices in London - making
himself the secret keeper.

From that point on - the only people who would know that the oop meets
at the MOM are those that Dumbledore tells. However - there are lots of
people who work at the MOM offices in London. THeir offices don't just
up a disappear. THey go to work at the MOM as normal - they just don't
know that the OOP meets there - and cannot find out unless DD tells them.

If we do it YOUR way - I could use the FC charm to make a secret that
YOU exist as a person. Instantly you would disappear and never be seen
again by anyone except me and anyone I chose to tell.

Report this message

#171: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 02:34:32 by strom

Toon wrote:
&gt; On 21 Jul 2006 14:38:10 -0700, <a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;The latter probably happened in Book 6 when
&gt; &gt;Harry divulged openly that 12GP was the headquarters of
&gt; &gt;the OOTP in front of the Dursleys -- Harry spoke
&gt; &gt;the words, but somehow the &quot;information&quot; never
&gt; &gt;made it into the Dursleys' brains -- instant Obliviation.
&gt;
&gt; Except DD announces it.

That wasn't what I remembered, so I went back and checked.
DD announces that Sirius has bequeathed 12GP to Harry.
But it is Harry who reveals that 12GP
is being used as headquarters,
which I thought was the secret.

At the Dursleys:
Dumbledore:
&quot;Our problem ... is that Sirius also left you
number twelve, Grimmauld Place.&quot;
Vernon Dursley:
&quot;He's been left a house?&quot; ...
HP:
&quot;You can keep using it as headquarters.&quot;

Earlier, at Spinner's End.
Bellatrix Lestrange:
&quot;And, while we are on the subject of the Order,
you still claim you cannot reveal the whereabouts
of their headquarters, don't you?&quot;
Snape:
&quot;I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak
the name of the place. You understand how
the enchantment works, I think?&quot;

Other things in that chapter seem to imply that
the FC literally doesn't keep you from getting into
12GP, merely from learning that it is headquarters:

Dumbledore:
&quot;... We do not know whether the enchantments
we ourselves have placed upon it, for example,
making it Unplottable, will hold now that
the ownership has passed from Sirius' hands.&quot;

So it appeared that the FC did not by itself make
the house unplottable; additional enchantments were
needed. Furthermore, although presumably
the FC keeps anyone who goes there from learning
that the OOTP is headquartered there, it doesn't
seem to protect people from seeing any
valuable clues members of the order have left lying
around, hence DD continues by saying:
&quot;It might be that Bellatrix will arrive on
the doorstep at any moment. Naturally,
we had to move out until such time as we have
clarified the position.&quot; So the FC didn't seem to
protect against someone entering the premises
and seeing things the Order didn't want seen.

--
Rob Strom

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#172: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 02:44:05 by Thomas Madura

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt; Thom Madura wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;And apparently you can't understand that if the FC works the way you
&gt;&gt;&gt;assume, then you have a plot hole.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;No plot hole - you have the wrong &quot;secret&quot;.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Let's see if we can Tivo though this exchange
&gt;
&gt; ag: The plot hole created when Narcissa coms to look at the family
&gt; home.
&gt;
&gt; Thom: If Narcissa comes, she can find the house but not the OotP'ers
&gt; inside.
&gt;
&gt; ag: The why does Bellatirx ask Snape about the location?
&gt;
&gt; Thom: JKR made a mistake.
&gt;
&gt; ag: Exactly
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;So the house not appearing to Harry's eyes until DD gives him the paper
&gt;&gt;&gt;is not caused by the FC but some other effect? You are the expert in
&gt;&gt;&gt;*magic*.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;AS Anneken pointed out - that was from Sirius' fathers spells - not from
&gt;&gt;the FC.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Spells that have synergystic effects with the FC and need even more
&gt; asumptions to explain what happens in unforseen circunstances - all
&gt; unecessay for story purposes.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Virtually everyone does not include Hagrid of course. (
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;No - only Sirius knew that Pettigrew was the secret keeper because it
&gt;&gt;was he who convinced James to do it.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Try to follow. You said &quot;Since virtually everyone thought that Sirius
&gt; was the secret keeper&quot; in the context of the night at Godric's Hollow.
&gt;
&gt; If everyone thought the secret keeper was Sirius that night when the
&gt; curse backfired then Hagrid would have suspected Sirius of treachery.
&gt; It is only after that night that Hagrid learns (falsely) that Sirius
&gt; was the sercret keeper. When he does find out, he feels remorse at not
&gt; catching Sirius when he had a chance that night.
&gt;
&gt; So Hagrid did not think (falsely) that Sirius was the secret keeper.
&gt; But you calimed that virtually everyone thought (falsely) that Siris
&gt; was the secret keeper...so virtually everyone does not include Hagrid
&gt; that night.
&gt;
&gt; Thus your 1st supposition for you argument
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Since virtually everyone thought that Sirius was the secret keeper =
&gt; only Sirius knew - then if the Potter house disappeared(as you
&gt; suggest)
&gt; - then Dumbledore would not have been able to find it that night since
&gt; he was not in on the secret - Hagrid would also have not been able to
&gt; find the house - and they would not have been able to find Baby Harry -
&gt;
&gt; unless Pettigrew told them where to find him.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; makes no sense.
&gt;
&gt; It was a nitpick. I did not bother to explain how I explain that Hagrid
&gt; got to the hosue because I have done so ad nauseum in this thread.
&gt;


?????

Try to follow

THe ONLY person(other than the potters themselves) - who knew that
Pettigrew was the secret keeper was Sirius - who convinced the potters
to use Pettigrew instead of himself.

Since EVERYONE ELSE - including Dumbledore and Hagrid - thought that the
secret keeper was Sirius - that means that they were not in on the
secret. IF they were in on the secret - they would have known that
Pettigrew was the secret keeper - they would have known that Sirius did
not give up the secret to V - they would have known that Sirius was
attacking Pettigrew because he gave the secret to V = IE - they would
have known WHY Sirius attacked Pettigrew - and I suspect Sirius would
not have landed in Azkhaban based on that.

SO - if DUMBLEDORE and HAGRID and the MOM and did NOT know the secret -
then they did not know that the Potters were hiding at their house.

Since Pettigrew really didn't die - he still was(is) the secret keeper
and no one could find out about that secret unless Pettigrew told them.

Now - if - as you say - the FC spell would have made the Potter House
Disappear and only those who were told the secret could find it - then
Dumbledore and Hagrid

1 - Wouldn't be able to find the Potter House - they didn't know the secret.
2 - THey wouldn't have been able to rescue Harry - since they would not
be able to find the house.
3 - No - Harry - No Harry Potter story to tell. SO the books would not
have been written.

THerefore - your argument HAS to be wrong for the simple reason that we
are arguing about the Harry Potter Stories from the Harry Potter books
that were produced because the Potter House did not Disappear - so
Dumbledore was able to find Harry and rescue him - and have Hagrid take
him to the Dursleys.

If you continue to think you are correct - then there ARE NO Harry
Potter stories - so we have no argument


Good Day

Report this message

#173: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 02:48:56 by Thomas Madura

Sky Rider wrote:

&gt; On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:56:54 GMT, Thom Madura
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">Thom-Madura&#64;Worldnet.att.net</a>&gt; looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
&gt; eye and said :
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Toon wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;On 21 Jul 2006 08:45:40 -0700, <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Richard Eney wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152868794.521207.206680&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;SHe said that the spell remains in force as it was as of the death of
&gt;&gt;the secret keeper - ie - the only people who know the secret are those
&gt;&gt;the secret keeper told in life - which now cannot be added to.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; So... since DD was secret keeper for the OoP headquarters it's now
&gt; wide open to attack??

No - just the opposite - since DD is dead - no one else can learn the
secret - only those that DD told while he was alive will now know and
they cannot tell anyone else.

However - since they stopped meeting there after Sirius' death, the
secret itself was no longer true as well.

Report this message

#174: Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***

Posted on 2006-07-23 07:02:12 by Emma Pease

In article &lt;SARvg.301$<a href="mailto:8a.168&#64;fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">8a.168&#64;fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk</a>&gt;, DaveD wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Sky Rider&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:home&#64;therange.com" target="_blank">home&#64;therange.com</a>&gt; wrote in message

&gt;&gt; I figured the only way Dumbledore could have known about all this is
&gt;&gt; from a witness. Since we know he'd not have spoken to Wormtail...
&gt;&gt; there are few other possibilities... and as one of Voldemorts closest
&gt;&gt; DE's, *and* as the person who passed on as much of the prophecy as was
&gt;&gt; known... Snape is the only logical choice. So Snape was there, saw the
&gt;&gt; whole thing and informed Dumbledore.

&gt; I like the idea of Snape turning up to try and stop Voldy, but I'm not sure
&gt; how that could have happened: Snape only heard the first part of the
&gt; prophecy and told Dd. Presumably Voldy said he would go and kill the Potters
&gt; (not sure how he jumpled to that conclusion unless he didn't know about
&gt; Neville's birth, unlikely I suspect as the DEs had been torturing his
&gt; parents). But how did Snape know where that was - only Wormtail could tell
&gt; him due to the FC, and why would he (or did I miss something somewhere).
&gt; Possibly the instant Lilly and James were both dead, the FC ceased to work,
&gt; but by then they were dead so Snape could only arrive afterwards rather than
&gt; be there to witness it.

1. Even if the possible witness had come with Voldemort he couldn't have
entered the cottage unless Pettigrew had told him. Voldemort could
have brought a whole crowd of people and none could have entered the
cottage until it was no more. Voldemort supporters if any would have
fled once they thought Voldemort was no more but someone picked up his
wand. The assumption is that this was Pettigrew.

2. How many knew that Pettigrew was the traitor? Surely the
Deatheaters who appeared to repent didn't know otherwise they would
have revealed Pettigrew as the traitor (he would have appeared to have
been a traitor to Voldemort also so no harm in revealing his role).

3. Neville's parents weren't tortured until after the incident at
Godric's Hollow.

&gt;&gt; Dumbledore didn't know if Harry was alive or dead sent Hagrid to check
&gt;&gt; while he sped off to protect Neville. Snape returned to Hogwarts and
&gt;&gt; remained there until he killed Dumbledore.
&gt;
&gt; But did Dd consider Neville might be one of two who fit the prophecy back
&gt; then?

They may have gone into protection also but came out after Godric's
Hollow thinking they were safe (only to be captured and tortured).

Why were they tortured? Did Bellatrix think that Dumbledore had come
up with some new magic to defeat Voldemort and that the prophecy was a
trick to lure Voldemort into a trap either at Godric Hollow or
wherever Neville's parents were (in which case Neville's parents knew
what the magic was).

--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

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#175: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 14:08:31 by Toon

On 22 Jul 2006 17:34:32 -0700, <a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote:

&gt;Toon wrote:
&gt;&gt; On 21 Jul 2006 14:38:10 -0700, <a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;The latter probably happened in Book 6 when
&gt;&gt; &gt;Harry divulged openly that 12GP was the headquarters of
&gt;&gt; &gt;the OOTP in front of the Dursleys -- Harry spoke
&gt;&gt; &gt;the words, but somehow the &quot;information&quot; never
&gt;&gt; &gt;made it into the Dursleys' brains -- instant Obliviation.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Except DD announces it.
&gt;
&gt;That wasn't what I remembered, so I went back and checked.
&gt;DD announces that Sirius has bequeathed 12GP to Harry.
&gt;But it is Harry who reveals that 12GP
&gt;is being used as headquarters,
&gt;which I thought was the secret.

No, the place itself, which is why you don't see it without knowing
ahead of time. You quoted the proof below:

&gt;At the Dursleys:
&gt;Dumbledore:
&gt;&quot;Our problem ... is that Sirius also left you
&gt;number twelve, Grimmauld Place.&quot;

Here he's naming it. Remember that.


&gt;Snape:
&gt;&quot;I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak
&gt;the name of the place. You understand how
&gt;the enchantment works, I think?&quot;

He cannot speak the name of it. Yet he knows it. Harry knows it, and
spoke it's name. Therefore, the fact it's the HQ's can't be the
secret. Or else Harry is so powerful as to break free of the FC. IT's
the buidling's locaiton. Otherwise, why hide the buildig? Poeple cna
ocem and go, and neevr see the order there.



&gt;So it appeared that the FC did not by itself make
&gt;the house unplottable; additional enchantments were
&gt;needed. Furthermore, although presumably
&gt;the FC keeps anyone who goes there from learning
&gt;that the OOTP is headquartered there, it doesn't
&gt;seem to protect people from seeing any
&gt;valuable clues members of the order have left lying
&gt;around, hence DD continues by saying:
&gt;&quot;It might be that Bellatrix will arrive on
&gt;the doorstep at any moment. Naturally,
&gt;we had to move out until such time as we have
&gt;clarified the position.&quot; So the FC didn't seem to
&gt;protect against someone entering the premises
&gt;and seeing things the Order didn't want seen.


Right. Because that's not the secret. The building's location is.
It's further made unplottable to stymie those who already know it's
location. In the end, they'd assume it was destroyed or moved or
such.

Not to mention, the unplottable house is invisble until Harry read the
note from DD. if it was the fact that the house is the HQ, Harry
would be able to see it fine. The FC wouldn't make it plottable.

And sicne harry says the Order can use it,t hat's reevaling it's the
HQ for the Order. And Harry can't do that, he's not the Sk. DD is.

Report this message

#176: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 14:36:37 by Eric Bohlman

Toon &lt;<a href="mailto:toon&#64;toon.com" target="_blank">toon&#64;toon.com</a>&gt; wrote in news:l8p6c25idmgkj1im90pf7sp84njumssumg@
4ax.com:

&gt; On 22 Jul 2006 17:34:32 -0700, <a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;Snape:
&gt;&gt;&quot;I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak
&gt;&gt;the name of the place. You understand how
&gt;&gt;the enchantment works, I think?&quot;
&gt;
&gt; He cannot speak the name of it. Yet he knows it. Harry knows it, and
&gt; spoke it's name. Therefore, the fact it's the HQ's can't be the
&gt; secret. Or else Harry is so powerful as to break free of the FC. IT's
&gt; the buidling's locaiton. Otherwise, why hide the buildig? Poeple cna
&gt; ocem and go, and neevr see the order there.

Aren't you forgetting that, assuming that &quot;Spinner's End&quot; is roughly
contemporaneous with &quot;Will and Won't,&quot; the HQ's been at least temporarily
relocated?

Report this message

#177: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 15:29:49 by Thomas Madura

Toon wrote:
&gt; On 22 Jul 2006 17:34:32 -0700, <a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Toon wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;On 21 Jul 2006 14:38:10 -0700, <a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The latter probably happened in Book 6 when
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Harry divulged openly that 12GP was the headquarters of
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;the OOTP in front of the Dursleys -- Harry spoke
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;the words, but somehow the &quot;information&quot; never
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;made it into the Dursleys' brains -- instant Obliviation.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Except DD announces it.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;That wasn't what I remembered, so I went back and checked.
&gt;&gt;DD announces that Sirius has bequeathed 12GP to Harry.
&gt;&gt;But it is Harry who reveals that 12GP
&gt;&gt;is being used as headquarters,
&gt;&gt;which I thought was the secret.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; No, the place itself, which is why you don't see it without knowing
&gt; ahead of time. You quoted the proof below:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;At the Dursleys:
&gt;&gt;Dumbledore:
&gt;&gt;&quot;Our problem ... is that Sirius also left you
&gt;&gt;number twelve, Grimmauld Place.&quot;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Here he's naming it. Remember that.

Sure - Harry is the new owner of the house. That does not say that it is
the headquarters of the OOP


&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Snape:
&gt;&gt;&quot;I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak
&gt;&gt;the name of the place. You understand how
&gt;&gt;the enchantment works, I think?&quot;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; He cannot speak the name of it. Yet he knows it. Harry knows it, and
&gt; spoke it's name. Therefore, the fact it's the HQ's can't be the
&gt; secret. Or else Harry is so powerful as to break free of the FC. IT's
&gt; the buidling's locaiton. Otherwise, why hide the buildig? Poeple cna
&gt; ocem and go, and neevr see the order there.


You CAN speak the name of the location of the house. That is not the secret.

THe secret - which is on a piece of paper given to Harry From Dumbledore
and may be found on the last page of Chapter THree in OOP IS

&quot;THe Headquarters of the OOP may be found at number 12 Grimmauld Place,
London&quot;

Since it specifically stated in highlighted text in the Book itself -
there is NO QUESTION at all that the secret is the location of the
headquarters of the OOP.


Again - the FC charm binds PEOPLE from telling a secret - it has nothing
to do with a house being hid.




&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;So it appeared that the FC did not by itself make
&gt;&gt;the house unplottable; additional enchantments were
&gt;&gt;needed. Furthermore, although presumably
&gt;&gt;the FC keeps anyone who goes there from learning
&gt;&gt;that the OOTP is headquartered there, it doesn't
&gt;&gt;seem to protect people from seeing any
&gt;&gt;valuable clues members of the order have left lying
&gt;&gt;around, hence DD continues by saying:
&gt;&gt;&quot;It might be that Bellatrix will arrive on
&gt;&gt;the doorstep at any moment. Naturally,
&gt;&gt;we had to move out until such time as we have
&gt;&gt;clarified the position.&quot; So the FC didn't seem to
&gt;&gt;protect against someone entering the premises
&gt;&gt;and seeing things the Order didn't want seen.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Right. Because that's not the secret.


NO - the secret - word for word - is above. It is NOT the location of
the building.


The building's location is.
&gt; It's further made unplottable to stymie those who already know it's
&gt; location. In the end, they'd assume it was destroyed or moved or
&gt; such.
&gt;
&gt; Not to mention, the unplottable house is invisble until Harry read the
&gt; note from DD. if it was the fact that the house is the HQ, Harry
&gt; would be able to see it fine. The FC wouldn't make it plottable.
&gt;
&gt; And sicne harry says the Order can use it,t hat's reevaling it's the
&gt; HQ for the Order. And Harry can't do that, he's not the Sk. DD is.

In this case - the order temporarily moved out of the house after Sirius
died. Until Harry was known to have been left the house - it was a
possibilty that Narcissus would have inherited it - making it unsuitable.

When the OOP moved out of the house - that made the secret false. It is
my feeling that a secret is only protected while it is true.

But, there is a problem here. The Pettigrew &quot;secret&quot; that the Potters
were hiding at their house - remained TRUE even after James and Lily
died because Harry was still alive. That would have protected Harry from
people who did not know the secret. In this case - we know that only
Sirius, Pettigrew, and eventually V knew the secret.

WE know that Dumbledore and Hagrid - and the MOM thought that Sirius was
the secret keeper - so they were not in on the secret. WE know that
because Sirius was convicted of Killing Pettigrew (SOmething that never
happened but they thought it did) - and no one testified that Pettigrew
was actually a DE and the secret keeper - and revealed the secret to V.
THey ALL (Including Snape) thought that Sirius had told V. Sirius would
not have been convicted of murder if he killed Pettigrew as a known DE
who had turned it the Potters to V - since they were at war with the DE's.

SO......

If Pettigrew was still alive (True)

And Harry was still alive (Also true)

then the FC was still in force. Only those who were in on the secret
could have found Harry at his parents house. That means only V (who was
defeated by love) - Pettigrew(who hid as a rat - a wierd choice too) -
and Sirius knew the secret.


How did Dumbledore and Hagrid find and rescue Harry?

THe only possibility I can think of is that the secret did not include
Harry - and once the Potters were dead - the secret ended.

Report this message

#178: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 21:48:25 by Markku Uttula

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Let's see if we can Tivo though this exchange
&gt;
&gt; ag: The plot hole created when Narcissa coms to look at the family
&gt; home.
&gt;
&gt; Thom: If Narcissa comes, she can find the house but not the OotP'ers
&gt; inside.

I think Narcissa would've been able to get to the house, as well as find
the OotP folk inside. Still, I think the Fidelius Charm would somehow
disable her from connecting the dots that the house was the
headquarters. And yes, I know how silly that sounds :p

Even though it sounds rather silly, it would explain - more or less -
how come Narcissa didn't connect the dots when Kreacher appeared and
told her OotP secrets ... without being able to divulge *where* the
headquarters was (by logic, she should've been able to tell it had to be
somewhere Kreacher had access to, quite likely in the most ancient and
noble House of the Black). Please also note the last paragraph of this
message for comment on wizards and logic.

&gt; ag: The why does Bellatirx ask Snape about the location?
&gt;
&gt; Thom: JKR made a mistake.
&gt;
&gt; ag: Exactly

Actually; she specifically asked whether Snape claims that he can't
reveal the whereabouts of OotP's headquarters. She *didn't* ask where it
was located.

Furthermore, Snape couldn't have revealed the location; not as in &quot;the
location of the headquarters of OotP&quot;. I believe (and could of course be
badly mistaken) that if he had asked &quot;what is the location of the Black
House&quot;, Snape would most likely had no problem telling it (as it was not
the house that was the secret but the location of the headquarters -
even if they are as close to one-to-one relation as there can be). Of
course, she had no reason to ask such a question, since she already knew
the location and couldn't have a faintest idea that the house was
invaded by a mob of do-gooders who happen to call themselves Order of
the Phoenix.

Which brings up an interesting question; if it's known there is a
secret, could the Fidelius charm be broken by going through the map area
by area and asking &quot;is it in this area&quot;, and everytime the person who
knows the secret, but can't tell it to others tells he can't answer, we
know we're in the right area; bring in a more detailed map :)

Of course, doing something like this would require some time and
applying quite some logic, and (as we know from the Philosopher's Stone)
it just so happens that &quot;a lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an
ounce of logic&quot; :)

--
Markku Uttula

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#179: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 21:55:07 by Markku Uttula

<a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; DaveD wrote:
&gt;&gt; Erm, might I suggest you may be taking this a bit too seriously?
&gt;
&gt; Sorry for all the shouting (I did apolgize ahead of time too) but the
&gt; discussion has gone from a discussion of plot - and I do thank
&gt; everyone for trying to debunk my reconstruction - to a nitpicking
&gt; over magic.

Welcome to Usenet. That sort of thing tends to happen here :)

--
Markku Uttula

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#180: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 22:02:06 by Markku Uttula

Benjamin Esham wrote:
&gt;&gt; Now - in the case of DD giving Harry the piece of Paper - DD wanted
&gt;&gt; Harry to know the secret - that the OOP met at Sirus' house. IF
&gt;&gt; Sirus had brought Harry to the house WITHOUT the piece of paper -
&gt;&gt; Harry would have been able to see the house - just not the OOP
&gt;&gt; meeting there.
&gt;
&gt; Why, then, could Harry only see the house after he had read the paper?

I'd say it's quite a lot like what's going on with the Leaky Cauldron.
The muggles can't see it because they don't know to look at it... &quot;If
Hagrid hadn't pointed it out, Harry wouldn't have noticed it was
there&quot; - remind us of anything we've seen later? &quot;Harry thought, and no
sooner had he reached the part about number twelve, Grimmauld Place,
than a battered foor emerged out of nowhere between numbers eleven and
thirteen&quot; ... I'd say that only at that point did Harry know what he was
looking for, and thus found it.

--
Markku Uttula

Report this message

#181: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-23 23:51:31 by strom

Markku Uttula wrote:
....
&gt;
&gt; Which brings up an interesting question; if it's known there is a
&gt; secret, could the Fidelius charm be broken by going through the map area
&gt; by area and asking &quot;is it in this area&quot;, and everytime the person who
&gt; knows the secret, but can't tell it to others tells he can't answer, we
&gt; know we're in the right area; bring in a more detailed map :)

I believe that according to JKR's definition,
the magic prevents the *information* from being
disclosed. Some kind of magical counterpart to Heisenberg's
uncertainty principle kicks in; the more questions are answered
with &quot;I can't say&quot;, the more cloudy the map (or the questioner's
memory) becomes, so that the total information content with
regard to the secret remains constant.

As I mentioned in another post, we know that at Privet Drive,
Dumbledore and Harry jointly did something
which if normal logic applied, would count
as revealing the secret to the Dursleys:
Dumbledore said that Harry now owns 12GP, followed by
Harry saying &quot;You can continue to use *it* [i.e. 12GP] as
headquarters&quot;. Neither statement revealed the secret, but
Harry's statement *in the context
of Dumbledore's statement* would normally
have done so. But since Harry isn't the SK, we must
assume that the FC will prevent the communication
of information from Harry to VD, and therefore
that Vernon's mind will be appropriately
obliviated to make it impossible for him to connect
&quot;Harry owns 12GP&quot; with &quot;You can continue to use *it*
as headquarters&quot; to conclude &quot;12GP is currently headquarters&quot;.

--
Rob Strom

Report this message

#182: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:42:38 by Eric Bohlman

<a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote in news:1153691491.544393.148650
@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

&gt; As I mentioned in another post, we know that at Privet Drive,
&gt; Dumbledore and Harry jointly did something
&gt; which if normal logic applied, would count
&gt; as revealing the secret to the Dursleys:
&gt; Dumbledore said that Harry now owns 12GP, followed by
&gt; Harry saying &quot;You can continue to use *it* [i.e. 12GP] as
&gt; headquarters&quot;. Neither statement revealed the secret, but
&gt; Harry's statement *in the context
&gt; of Dumbledore's statement* would normally
&gt; have done so. But since Harry isn't the SK, we must
&gt; assume that the FC will prevent the communication
&gt; of information from Harry to VD, and therefore
&gt; that Vernon's mind will be appropriately
&gt; obliviated to make it impossible for him to connect
&gt; &quot;Harry owns 12GP&quot; with &quot;You can continue to use *it*
&gt; as headquarters&quot; to conclude &quot;12GP is currently headquarters&quot;.

The flaw in your argument is that, although Harry wasn't aware of it
until a few seconds later, when he said &quot;you can continue to use it as
headquarters&quot; it *wasn't* *currently* the headquarters. The secret was
&quot;the the headquarters of OotP *can* be found at...,&quot; not &quot;could have been
found in the past at...&quot; or &quot;might be found in the future at...&quot; I would
assume that if the Order did indeed move back to 12GP, they would have to
cast a new FC because they have a new secret (I'm going on the assumption
that the FC protects against the disclosure of *specific facts* rather
than broad potential &quot;families&quot; of facts, e.g. it prevents disclosure of
the particular location of HQ at the time it was cast, not of all
possible subsequent locations).

Report this message

#183: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:50:41 by ag30476

Markku Uttula wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:ag30476&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ag30476&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; DaveD wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; Erm, might I suggest you may be taking this a bit too seriously?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Sorry for all the shouting (I did apolgize ahead of time too) but the
&gt; &gt; discussion has gone from a discussion of plot - and I do thank
&gt; &gt; everyone for trying to debunk my reconstruction - to a nitpicking
&gt; &gt; over magic.
&gt;
&gt; Welcome to Usenet. That sort of thing tends to happen here :)

Oh I'm OK with the Usenet stuff. I don't mind the fight, But this
newsgroup seems nice and all. So when I shouted (which is was no big
deal) and DaveD said that I was taking it too far, I thought it best
not to continue because the discussion would only degenerate from
there.

Now if the &quot;magical consistency&quot; crowd wants to continue thier
nitpicking over a magical mechanics, more power to them.

I'm just not interested in a discussion over the logic of magical
mechanics when such a thing does not exist. Besides it's done better
here

<a href="http://tinyurl.com/qo8o3" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/qo8o3</a>

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#184: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-24 03:14:07 by strom

Eric Bohlman wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote in news:1153691491.544393.148650
&gt; @i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
&gt;
....
&gt; The flaw in your argument is that, although Harry wasn't aware of it
&gt; until a few seconds later, when he said &quot;you can continue to use it as
&gt; headquarters&quot; it *wasn't* *currently* the headquarters.

I take your point, but it seems to rely on a subtle point of
what the definition of &quot;is the headquarters&quot; is.

It appears that the scope of the Fidelius Charm rests on the
very subtle question as to whether description (a) or (b)
better describes the situation at the time DD and HP were
visiting the Dursleys:

(a) 12GP is still the headquarters of the OoTP, but is temporarily
left empty pending the investigation of a possible
security exposure. If the investigation reveals that the
possible exposure is not a problem, the OoTP will resume
holding meetings there. It will be considered as having
been the headquarters continuously though.
(b) 12GP is no longer the headquarters of the OoTP because
there does not exist at least one member of the OoTP present there.
If they decide it's safe and come back, it may resume being
the headquarters of the OoTP, but will require a new FC,
because its restored status as headquarters is a new secret.

It appears that either version (a) or (b) is a valid description
of the situation, so it's odd that something as important
as the scope of the charm rests on such a tiny point.

I slightly prefer description (a), but others might think differently.

The trouble with the strictness of (b) is that it could also apply
to the situation at the Potters' Godrics Hollow hideout, in that
if the family ever left the hideout even for a minute to take
Harry for a stroll in his carriage (perambulator?) then they'd
need a new FC and a new SK once they returned, since
for that minute the secret stopped being true.

--
Rob Strom

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#185: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-24 03:59:46 by Thomas Madura

<a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote:

&gt; Markku Uttula wrote:
&gt; ...
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Which brings up an interesting question; if it's known there is a
&gt;&gt;secret, could the Fidelius charm be broken by going through the map area
&gt;&gt;by area and asking &quot;is it in this area&quot;, and everytime the person who
&gt;&gt;knows the secret, but can't tell it to others tells he can't answer, we
&gt;&gt;know we're in the right area; bring in a more detailed map :)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I believe that according to JKR's definition,
&gt; the magic prevents the *information* from being
&gt; disclosed. Some kind of magical counterpart to Heisenberg's
&gt; uncertainty principle kicks in; the more questions are answered
&gt; with &quot;I can't say&quot;, the more cloudy the map (or the questioner's
&gt; memory) becomes, so that the total information content with
&gt; regard to the secret remains constant.
&gt;
&gt; As I mentioned in another post, we know that at Privet Drive,
&gt; Dumbledore and Harry jointly did something
&gt; which if normal logic applied, would count
&gt; as revealing the secret to the Dursleys:
&gt; Dumbledore said that Harry now owns 12GP, followed by
&gt; Harry saying &quot;You can continue to use *it* [i.e. 12GP] as
&gt; headquarters&quot;. Neither statement revealed the secret, but
&gt; Harry's statement *in the context
&gt; of Dumbledore's statement* would normally
&gt; have done so. But since Harry isn't the SK, we must
&gt; assume that the FC will prevent the communication
&gt; of information from Harry to VD, and therefore
&gt; that Vernon's mind will be appropriately
&gt; obliviated to make it impossible for him to connect
&gt; &quot;Harry owns 12GP&quot; with &quot;You can continue to use *it*
&gt; as headquarters&quot; to conclude &quot;12GP is currently headquarters&quot;.
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Rob Strom
&gt;

But remember - at the time that Harry told Dumbledore that the OOP could
continue to use the house - they had already temporarily moved out of
the house. THe secret did not apply at that time - the headquarters was
NOT at the Black house.

It would make sense that the FC only protects a secret as long as the
secret is true.

Report this message

#186: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-24 04:08:40 by Thomas Madura

<a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote:

&gt; Eric Bohlman wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;<a href="mailto:strom&#64;watson.ibm.com" target="_blank">strom&#64;watson.ibm.com</a> wrote in news:1153691491.544393.148650
&gt;&gt;@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; ...
&gt;
&gt;&gt;The flaw in your argument is that, although Harry wasn't aware of it
&gt;&gt;until a few seconds later, when he said &quot;you can continue to use it as
&gt;&gt;headquarters&quot; it *wasn't* *currently* the headquarters.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I take your point, but it seems to rely on a subtle point of
&gt; what the definition of &quot;is the headquarters&quot; is.
&gt;
&gt; It appears that the scope of the Fidelius Charm rests on the
&gt; very subtle question as to whether description (a) or (b)
&gt; better describes the situation at the time DD and HP were
&gt; visiting the Dursleys:
&gt;
&gt; (a) 12GP is still the headquarters of the OoTP, but is temporarily
&gt; left empty pending the investigation of a possible
&gt; security exposure. If the investigation reveals that the
&gt; possible exposure is not a problem, the OoTP will resume
&gt; holding meetings there. It will be considered as having
&gt; been the headquarters continuously though.
&gt; (b) 12GP is no longer the headquarters of the OoTP because
&gt; there does not exist at least one member of the OoTP present there.
&gt; If they decide it's safe and come back, it may resume being
&gt; the headquarters of the OoTP, but will require a new FC,
&gt; because its restored status as headquarters is a new secret.
&gt;
&gt; It appears that either version (a) or (b) is a valid description
&gt; of the situation, so it's odd that something as important
&gt; as the scope of the charm rests on such a tiny point.
&gt;
&gt; I slightly prefer description (a), but others might think differently.
&gt;
&gt; The trouble with the strictness of (b) is that it could also apply
&gt; to the situation at the Potters' Godrics Hollow hideout, in that
&gt; if the family ever left the hideout even for a minute to take
&gt; Harry for a stroll in his carriage (perambulator?) then they'd
&gt; need a new FC and a new SK once they returned, since
&gt; for that minute the secret stopped being true.
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Rob Strom
&gt;

Actually - neither A nor B really applied.

When Sirius died - the OOP no longer had permisssion to use the house as
its Headquarters. Until the new ownership was established - they
certainly would have to leave. Having no heirs of his own, Sirius' next
of Kin would have been Narcissus - wife of a Death Eater - and surely
the OOP was not going to ask permission from her.

It was only when Sirius estate was settled in Harry's favor - probably
through a will - that it was possible for the OOP to get permission to
return there. Even then - they still needed Harry's permission to meet
there.

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#187: Re: Secret Keeper

Posted on 2006-07-24 05:05:58 by Markku Uttula

Thom Madura wrote:
&gt; But remember - at the time that Harry told Dumbledore that the OOP
&gt; could continue to use the house - they had already temporarily moved
&gt; out of the house. THe secret did not apply at that time - the
&gt; headquarters was NOT at the Black house.
&gt;
&gt; It would make sense that the FC only protects a secret as long as the
&gt; secret is true.

Also, before Harry goes on to mentioning the word &quot;headquarters&quot;,
Dumbledore has already told everything else of the secret; the name of
the group as well as the location - as well as the fact that in the said
location there is a house in existence, and that the said house become a
problem for the aforementioned group :)

It could also be argued (though I think this is a rather weak argument)
that the Dursley's had no use what so ever for the information they were
given. They had no connotation as to what and who else is the &quot;Order of
the Phoenix&quot;. Most likely they'll never even want to find out.

--
Markku Uttula

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