Bookmarks

Yahoo Gmail Google Facebook Delicious Twitter Reddit Stumpleupon Myspace Digg

Search queries

why did Scabbers bite goyle, fuldataler mineralwasser, bikemate fahrradcomputer t52434 anleitung, frank zappa iq 172 liam gallagher 164, "heartbroke kid" "previous episode references", bikemate t52434 anleitung, marietta edgecombe cop out, kaufland autobatterie, nasi goreng in dosen kaufen, micromaxx mm 3544 universalfernbedienung

Links

XODOX
Impressum

#1: A T. Pratchett moment

Posted on 2006-07-14 01:59:21 by mitch

I spent the last two weeks on vacation in the Netherlands (it was
great, thanks) and had occasion to try to translate the Dutch on the
menus. This lead to me asking the rest of the family (in complete
seriousness), "I wonder what 'ook' means?"

The TP fans in the family (4 of 5) had a good laugh.

Mitch
(it's pronounced "oak" and means "also", probably sharing a root with
"auch" in German)

Report this message

#2: Re: A T. Pratchett moment

Posted on 2006-07-14 12:35:37 by Peter Boulding

On 13 Jul 2006 16:59:21 -0700, &quot;Mitch&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mitch_skool&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">mitch_skool&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in
&lt;<a href="mailto:1152835161.755211.102770&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152835161.755211.102770&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;:

&gt;I spent the last two weeks on vacation in the Netherlands (it was
&gt;great, thanks) and had occasion to try to translate the Dutch on the
&gt;menus. This lead to me asking the rest of the family (in complete
&gt;seriousness), &quot;I wonder what 'ook' means?&quot;
&gt;
&gt;The TP fans in the family (4 of 5) had a good laugh.

Did you notice the gold medallion on the cover of &quot;Where's My Cow?&quot;

--
Regards
Peter Boulding
<a href="mailto:pjb&#64;UNSPAMpboulding.co.uk" target="_blank">pjb&#64;UNSPAMpboulding.co.uk</a> (to e-mail, remove &quot;UNSPAM&quot;)
Fractal music &amp; images: <a href="http://www.pboulding.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.pboulding.co.uk/</a>

Report this message

#3: Re: A T. Pratchett moment

Posted on 2006-07-15 19:47:40 by Aggie Angst

Mitch wrote:
&gt; I spent the last two weeks on vacation in the Netherlands (it was
&gt; great, thanks) and had occasion to try to translate the Dutch on the
&gt; menus. This lead to me asking the rest of the family (in complete
&gt; seriousness), &quot;I wonder what 'ook' means?&quot;
&gt;
&gt; The TP fans in the family (4 of 5) had a good laugh.
&gt;
&gt; Mitch
&gt; (it's pronounced &quot;oak&quot; and means &quot;also&quot;, probably sharing a root with
&gt; &quot;auch&quot; in German)

I wonder if anyone has told the librarian?
8o
Aggie

Report this message

#4: Re: A T. Pratchett moment

Posted on 2006-07-15 23:04:07 by Mary

Aggie Angst wrote:
&gt; Mitch wrote:
&gt;&gt; I spent the last two weeks on vacation in the Netherlands (it was
&gt;&gt; great, thanks) and had occasion to try to translate the Dutch on the
&gt;&gt; menus. This lead to me asking the rest of the family (in complete
&gt;&gt; seriousness), &quot;I wonder what 'ook' means?&quot;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The TP fans in the family (4 of 5) had a good laugh.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Mitch
&gt;&gt; (it's pronounced &quot;oak&quot; and means &quot;also&quot;, probably sharing a root with
&gt;&gt; &quot;auch&quot; in German)
&gt;
&gt; I wonder if anyone has told the librarian?
&gt; 8o
&gt; Aggie
&gt;
&gt;


More to the point, I wonder what the Librarian says in Dutch
translations of Pratchett books?

Mary

Report this message

#5: Re: [R] A T. Pratchett moment

Posted on 2006-07-16 01:26:19 by Kimberley Verburg

Mary wrote:
&gt; Aggie Angst wrote:
&gt;&gt; Mitch wrote:

[the word &quot;ook&quot; in Dutch]
&gt;&gt;&gt; (it's pronounced &quot;oak&quot; and means &quot;also&quot;, probably sharing a root with
&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;auch&quot; in German)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I wonder if anyone has told the librarian?

&gt; More to the point, I wonder what the Librarian says in Dutch
&gt; translations of Pratchett books?

He says &quot;oek&quot; which is pronounced like the English &quot;ook&quot;.

--
Kimberley Verburg
<a href="mailto:kim&#64;lspace.org" target="_blank">kim&#64;lspace.org</a>

Report this message

#6: Re: [R] Dutch librarians // was A T. Pratchett moment

Posted on 2006-07-16 04:50:27 by Flesh-eating Dragon

Aggie Angst wrote:
&gt; Mitch wrote:
&gt;&gt; I spent the last two weeks on vacation in the Netherlands (it was
&gt;&gt; great, thanks) and had occasion to try to translate the Dutch on the
&gt;&gt; menus. This lead to me asking the rest of the family (in complete
&gt;&gt; seriousness), &quot;I wonder what 'ook' means?&quot;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The TP fans in the family (4 of 5) had a good laugh.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Mitch
&gt;&gt; (it's pronounced &quot;oak&quot; and means &quot;also&quot;, probably sharing a root with
&gt;&gt; &quot;auch&quot; in German)
&gt;
&gt; I wonder if anyone has told the librarian?

It's not pronounced &quot;oak&quot;, anyway, at least not in the dialects I
heard. It's more like &quot;awk&quot;. Maybe &quot;oak with a Scottish accent&quot;.

I've sometimes wondered whether &quot;ik ook!&quot; would work as dog-dutch for
&quot;me too / AOL&quot;.

Adrian.

Report this message

#7: Re: [R] Dutch librarians // was A T. Pratchett moment

Posted on 2006-07-16 14:41:50 by PleegWat

In article &lt;e9c9f3$2rbo$<a href="mailto:1&#64;mud.stack.nl" target="_blank">1&#64;mud.stack.nl</a>&gt;, 8'FED says...
&gt; It's not pronounced &quot;oak&quot;, anyway, at least not in the dialects I
&gt; heard. It's more like &quot;awk&quot;. Maybe &quot;oak with a Scottish accent&quot;.

The way I pronounce the Dutch word &quot;ook&quot; is almost identical to the way
I've learned to pronounce the English word &quot;oak&quot; (the tree) and
definitely quite different from &quot;awk&quot; (it's a bird sound innit?) though
dialects may vary.

&gt; I've sometimes wondered whether &quot;ik ook!&quot; would work as dog-dutch for
&gt; &quot;me too / AOL&quot;.

I think it would.
--
PleegWat
Remove caps to reply

Report this message

#8: Re: [I] Dutch pronunciation // was Dutch librarians

Posted on 2006-07-16 16:14:21 by Flesh-eating Dragon

PleegWat wrote:
&gt; 8'FED says...

&gt;&gt; It's not pronounced &quot;oak&quot;, anyway, at least not in the dialects I
&gt;&gt; heard. It's more like &quot;awk&quot;. Maybe &quot;oak with a Scottish accent&quot;.
&gt;
&gt; The way I pronounce the Dutch word &quot;ook&quot; is almost identical to the way
&gt; I've learned to pronounce the English word &quot;oak&quot; (the tree) and
&gt; definitely quite different from &quot;awk&quot; (it's a bird sound innit?) though
&gt; dialects may vary.

I've uploaded a two-second .wav file here:
<a href="http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/ling/oh-aw.wav" target="_blank">http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/ling/oh-aw.wav</a>

It contains two vowel sounds (both sung [1]), each of which plays for
one second. The two sounds are similar, but they are noticeably
distinct [2] (ignore the minor difference in volume).

I would like to know which of the two sounds you think closer to the
one you would use when singing the word &quot;ook&quot;. My prediction, based on
a brief experience in the Netherlands, is that you will pick the
latter, rather than the former. In posting this, I seek to test this
hypothesis.

The former sound, I would venture, can be described as the vowel in
&quot;oak&quot; as spoken with an Irish accent, and the latter sound as the
vowel in &quot;oak&quot; as spoken with a Scottish accent. I use the latter
sound in words like &quot;horse&quot; [3], but I only ever use the former sound
when imitating a foreign accent.

Adrian.

[1] Singing helped me to keep the volume more or less constant and
to keep my lips stationary.

[2] To me. Speakers of some languages may not find them as easy to
tell apart. The difference is small enough that the International
Phonetic Alphabet specifies the same symbol for both. [4]

[3] Which, Richard, may well rhyme with Bos...(?)

[4] Which confused me somewhat when I was first learning the IPA,
because I didn't at that stage realise that the main symbols
only make coarse-grain distinctions.

Report this message

#9: Re: A T. Pratchett moment

Posted on 2006-07-16 19:51:10 by Julian Hall

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 17:47:40 +0000, Aggie Angst wrote:

&gt; I wonder if anyone has told the librarian?
&gt; 8o
&gt; Aggie

Well as oak is a type of wood, and paper is just pulped wood, maybe he
already knows :) It's quite fitting really.
--
Kind regards,

Julian Hall
&quot;I'm only on the planet because I missed the bus home&quot;

Report this message

#10: Re: [R] Dutch librarians // was A T. Pratchett moment

Posted on 2006-07-17 09:38:13 by Hendrik Schober

8'FED &lt;<a href="mailto:dragon&#64;netyp.com.au" target="_blank">dragon&#64;netyp.com.au</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; [...]
&gt; I've sometimes wondered whether &quot;ik ook!&quot; would work as dog-dutch for
&gt; &quot;me too / AOL&quot;.

Despite the fact that the local dialect would call for a
&quot;ick ooch&quot; (where the double o is pronounced more like
the oa in boat and the ch is that throat sound Germans
make), you'd probably be understood in Berlin.

Schobi

--
<a href="mailto:SpamTrap&#64;gmx.de" target="_blank">SpamTrap&#64;gmx.de</a> is never read
I'm Schobi at suespammers dot org

&quot;The sarcasm is mightier than the sword.&quot;
Eric Jarvis

Report this message

#11: Re: [R] Dutch librarians // was A T. Pratchett moment

Posted on 2006-07-17 09:38:13 by Hendrik Schober

8'FED &lt;<a href="mailto:dragon&#64;netyp.com.au" target="_blank">dragon&#64;netyp.com.au</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; [...]
&gt; I've sometimes wondered whether &quot;ik ook!&quot; would work as dog-dutch for
&gt; &quot;me too / AOL&quot;.

Despite the fact that the local dialect would call for a
&quot;ick ooch&quot; (where the double o is pronounced more like
the oa in boat and the ch is that throat sound Germans
make), you'd probably be understood in Berlin.

Schobi

--
<a href="mailto:SpamTrap&#64;gmx.de" target="_blank">SpamTrap&#64;gmx.de</a> is never read
I'm Schobi at suespammers dot org

&quot;The sarcasm is mightier than the sword.&quot;
Eric Jarvis

Report this message

#12: Re: [I] Dutch pronunciation // was Dutch librarians

Posted on 2006-07-17 10:29:53 by PleegWat

In article &lt;e9dhhi$i6m$<a href="mailto:1&#64;mud.stack.nl" target="_blank">1&#64;mud.stack.nl</a>&gt;, 8'FED says...
&gt; PleegWat wrote:
&gt; &gt; 8'FED says...
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; It's not pronounced &quot;oak&quot;, anyway, at least not in the dialects I
&gt; &gt;&gt; heard. It's more like &quot;awk&quot;. Maybe &quot;oak with a Scottish accent&quot;.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The way I pronounce the Dutch word &quot;ook&quot; is almost identical to the way
&gt; &gt; I've learned to pronounce the English word &quot;oak&quot; (the tree) and
&gt; &gt; definitely quite different from &quot;awk&quot; (it's a bird sound innit?) though
&gt; &gt; dialects may vary.
&gt;
&gt; I've uploaded a two-second .wav file here:
&gt; <a href="http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/ling/oh-aw.wav" target="_blank">http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/ling/oh-aw.wav</a>
&gt;
&gt; It contains two vowel sounds (both sung [1]), each of which plays for
&gt; one second. The two sounds are similar, but they are noticeably
&gt; distinct [2] (ignore the minor difference in volume).
&gt;
&gt; I would like to know which of the two sounds you think closer to the
&gt; one you would use when singing the word &quot;ook&quot;. My prediction, based on
&gt; a brief experience in the Netherlands, is that you will pick the
&gt; latter, rather than the former. In posting this, I seek to test this
&gt; hypothesis.

I'd go for the former.
--
PleegWat
Remove caps to reply

Report this message

#13: Re: [I] Dutch pronunciation // was Dutch librarians

Posted on 2006-07-18 01:13:19 by raltbos

&quot;8'FED&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dragon&#64;netyp.com.au" target="_blank">dragon&#64;netyp.com.au</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; PleegWat wrote:
&gt; &gt; 8'FED says...
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; It's not pronounced &quot;oak&quot;, anyway, at least not in the dialects I
&gt; &gt;&gt; heard. It's more like &quot;awk&quot;. Maybe &quot;oak with a Scottish accent&quot;.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The way I pronounce the Dutch word &quot;ook&quot; is almost identical to the way
&gt; &gt; I've learned to pronounce the English word &quot;oak&quot; (the tree) and
&gt; &gt; definitely quite different from &quot;awk&quot; (it's a bird sound innit?) though
&gt; &gt; dialects may vary.
&gt;
&gt; I've uploaded a two-second .wav file here:
&gt; <a href="http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/ling/oh-aw.wav" target="_blank">http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/ling/oh-aw.wav</a>
&gt;
&gt; It contains two vowel sounds (both sung [1]), each of which plays for
&gt; one second. The two sounds are similar, but they are noticeably
&gt; distinct [2] (ignore the minor difference in volume).

&gt; [2] To me. Speakers of some languages may not find them as easy to
&gt; tell apart. The difference is small enough that the International
&gt; Phonetic Alphabet specifies the same symbol for both. [4]

Er... no. First is o, second is turned c. I.e., first is close-mid back,
second open-mid back. Close, but clearly distinct.

&gt; I would like to know which of the two sounds you think closer to the
&gt; one you would use when singing the word &quot;ook&quot;. My prediction, based on
&gt; a brief experience in the Netherlands, is that you will pick the
&gt; latter, rather than the former.

Wrong; it's the close-mid back vowel, longish.

&gt; The former sound, I would venture, can be described as the vowel in
&gt; &quot;oak&quot; as spoken with an Irish accent, and the latter sound as the
&gt; vowel in &quot;oak&quot; as spoken with a Scottish accent. I use the latter
&gt; sound in words like &quot;horse&quot; [3],

&gt; [3] Which, Richard, may well rhyme with Bos...(?)

Somewhat. It rhymes for English values of &quot;rhyme&quot;, where poets
throughout the centuries have perpetrated &quot;sky/longingly&quot; just because
that used to rhyme for Spenser. It is the same base vowel, but &quot;horse&quot;
is longer, and often rhoticised or followed by a schwa; the one in my
name is strictly short and the pure vowel.

Richard

Report this message

#14: Re: [I] Dutch pronunciation // was Dutch librarians

Posted on 2006-07-18 03:27:55 by Flesh-eating Dragon

Richard Bos wrote:
&gt; 8'FED wrote:

&gt;&gt; It contains two vowel sounds (both sung [1]), each of which plays for
&gt;&gt; one second. The two sounds are similar, but they are noticeably
&gt;&gt; distinct [2] (ignore the minor difference in volume).
&gt;
&gt;&gt; [2] To me. Speakers of some languages may not find them as easy to
&gt;&gt; tell apart. The difference is small enough that the International
&gt;&gt; Phonetic Alphabet specifies the same symbol for both. [4]
&gt;
&gt; Er... no. First is o, second is turned c. I.e., first is close-mid back,
&gt; second open-mid back. Close, but clearly distinct.

Wrong. They're both o. Turned c is *significantly* wider.

IPA vowels are something that I do know about, and I assure you that
both sounds fall very definitely within the range of [o].

Adrian.

Report this message

#15: Re: [I] Dutch pronunciation // was Dutch librarians

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:57:13 by raltbos

&quot;8'FED&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dragon&#64;netyp.com.au" target="_blank">dragon&#64;netyp.com.au</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Richard Bos wrote:
&gt; &gt; 8'FED wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; It contains two vowel sounds (both sung [1]), each of which plays for
&gt; &gt;&gt; one second. The two sounds are similar, but they are noticeably
&gt; &gt;&gt; distinct [2] (ignore the minor difference in volume).
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; [2] To me. Speakers of some languages may not find them as easy to
&gt; &gt;&gt; tell apart. The difference is small enough that the International
&gt; &gt;&gt; Phonetic Alphabet specifies the same symbol for both. [4]
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Er... no. First is o, second is turned c. I.e., first is close-mid back,
&gt; &gt; second open-mid back. Close, but clearly distinct.
&gt;
&gt; Wrong. They're both o. Turned c is *significantly* wider.
&gt;
&gt; IPA vowels are something that I do know about, and I assure you that
&gt; both sounds fall very definitely within the range of [o].

Are they now? I have this complete IPA chart here and it definitely
claims that [o] is, to be precise, the rounded back close-mid vowel,
while [turned c] is an equally rounded, equally back, open-mid vowel.
Its non-rounded equivalent is the [turned v], as in the official
pronunciation of &quot;but&quot;. This may have changed since 1993 (the date on
the chart), but I'd be surprised. (And, again, to my ear your second
vowel sounds rather more opened than the first.)

Richard

Report this message

#16: Re: [I] Dutch pronunciation // was Dutch librarians

Posted on 2006-07-21 04:39:14 by Flesh-eating Dragon

Richard Bos wrote:
&gt; 8'FED wrote:

&gt;&gt; IPA vowels are something that I do know about, and I assure you that
&gt;&gt; both sounds fall very definitely within the range of [o].
&gt;
&gt; Are they now? I have this complete IPA chart here and it definitely
&gt; claims that [o] is, to be precise, the rounded back close-mid vowel,
&gt; while [turned c] is an equally rounded, equally back, open-mid vowel.

That is all correct.

&gt; (And, again, to my ear your second
&gt; vowel sounds rather more opened than the first.)

However, it's nowhere near open /enough/ to be turned c.

What you're doing is like looking at two similar shades of purple - a
slightly redder one and a slightly bluer one - and calling the latter
&quot;blue&quot;. Or, given 2.8 and 3.1, you're calling the latter &quot;4-ish&quot;. In
phonology you might do that, but not in phonetics.

Adrian.

Report this message

#17: Re: [I] Dutch pronunciation // was Dutch librarians

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:40:16 by raltbos

&quot;8'FED&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dragon&#64;netyp.com.au" target="_blank">dragon&#64;netyp.com.au</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Richard Bos wrote:
&gt; &gt; 8'FED wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; IPA vowels are something that I do know about, and I assure you that
&gt; &gt;&gt; both sounds fall very definitely within the range of [o].
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Are they now? I have this complete IPA chart here and it definitely
&gt; &gt; claims that [o] is, to be precise, the rounded back close-mid vowel,
&gt; &gt; while [turned c] is an equally rounded, equally back, open-mid vowel.
&gt;
&gt; That is all correct.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; (And, again, to my ear your second
&gt; &gt; vowel sounds rather more opened than the first.)
&gt;
&gt; However, it's nowhere near open /enough/ to be turned c.

I repeat: maybe to your ear, but not to mine. And I repeat: the Dutch
word &quot;ook&quot; is definitely pronounced [o:k], and its vowel is clearly much
closer to your first vowel.

Richard

Report this message

#18: Re: [I] Dutch pronunciation // was Dutch librarians

Posted on 2006-07-24 02:08:38 by Flesh-eating Dragon

Richard Bos wrote:
&gt; 8'FED wrote:

&gt;&gt; However, it's nowhere near open /enough/ to be turned c.
&gt;
&gt; I repeat: maybe to your ear, but not to mine.

Well, the values of the first formant are:
1st vowel: F1 = 360 Hz
2nd vowel: F1 = 440 Hz
The second formant, F2, is about 800 Hz for both.

I've currently lent my book on the IPA to a friend, so I can't look up
the discussion of formant frequencies as they relate to IPA vowels, but
<a href="http://www.ling.mq.edu.au/speech/phonetics/phonetics/vowelgraphs/AusE_Monophthongs.html" target="_blank"> http://www.ling.mq.edu.au/speech/phonetics/phonetics/vowelgr aphs/AusE_Monophthongs.html</a>
would suggest that the second vowel is actually a better example of [o]
than the first one is!

(BTW, I have aspirations to write a simple application to simulate
vowels and diphthongs given formant frequencies etc as input. However,
I don't know how to do the fundamental sound-creating operations.
Looked for something of use in the Java documentation but didn't find
it.)

&gt; And I repeat: the Dutch
&gt; word &quot;ook&quot; is definitely pronounced [o:k], and its vowel is clearly much
&gt; closer to your first vowel.

Well, I was just going on the basis of what I've heard. We talked
about the word when I was at Boudewijn's place, and he demonstrated
it, and it definitely sounded like &quot;orc&quot; to me, not &quot;oak&quot;. It's a
sample of one, but it's a one that I remember distinctly.

Adrian.

Report this message

#19: Re: [I] Dutch pronunciation // was Dutch librarians

Posted on 2006-07-24 02:12:49 by Philippa Cowderoy

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006, 8'FED wrote:

&gt; (BTW, I have aspirations to write a simple application to simulate
&gt; vowels and diphthongs given formant frequencies etc as input. However,
&gt; I don't know how to do the fundamental sound-creating operations.
&gt; Looked for something of use in the Java documentation but didn't find
&gt; it.)
&gt;

Yeesh, what did they teach you in physics anyway? Sum some sine waves. Or
do you mean how to play the result? In a pinch you can always write out
raw data or wav files and feed 'em into something else to get started. Or
use CSound or similar.

--
<a href="mailto:flippa&#64;flippac.org" target="_blank">flippa&#64;flippac.org</a>

A problem that's all in your head is still a problem.
Brain damage is but one form of mind damage.

Report this message