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#1: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-03 07:08:53 by morgothscurse2002

On 27 Oct 2005 11:16:27 -0700, &quot;elendur&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:elendur&#64;arcor.de" target="_blank">elendur&#64;arcor.de</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;(Morgoths´Curse comments are in chevrons)
&gt;
&gt;Note to Morgoth´s Curse: your comments on what I (Elendur) wrote in
&gt;this thread seem strong on imagination but weak on not sticking to
&gt;JRRT´s text and also to what is known from mediaeval history,
&gt;especially military history. What is your knowledge of European
&gt;mediaeval history, which JRRT draws on?)

Let me begin by asking why you seem to be taking personal offense in
this post and other posts in this thread. I hate to say so, but you
are reacting almost exactly as the notorious Michael Martinez would.
As many of the regulars here can testify, if you disagreed with
Martinez in any manner on any subject whatsoever, he would immediately
vindictively and vituperatively vilify you. It should go without
saying that this did not make him very popular. No personal offense
was intended in my post and I fail to see why you were offended.
&gt;
&gt;&lt;&lt;Your flawed assumption is that the hedge was intended to keep people
&gt;out. Hedges are not ideal defensive structures--fire would make quick
&gt;work of even the thorniest hedge--and are generally intended as fences
&gt;rather than walls. &gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;This is quite false. It is your comment which is flawed. In this
&gt;thread, I already cited the thorn hedges (Gebueck) as second defence
&gt;layer (after the town wall) around eg German mediaeval towns. Those
&gt;hedges were much higher than I suspect you and Belba Grubb from Stock
&gt;assume in this thread: 2 metres is the minimum. Hence Jackson´s Bree
&gt;hedge and gate dimensions in his film are accurate. There is a town
&gt;near Wiesbaden which still, like Bree, has part of its Gebueck. The
&gt;fact is that mediaeval towns did use thorn hedges around thir
&gt;pastures/market gardens for centuries, irrespective of the fire option
&gt;you mention. Hedges are cheaper than stone. Note that, as also on the
&gt;Roman Limes, all segments of a long hedge were under local observation
&gt;from spaced towers set into them. Any attempt to fire one would be
&gt;detected quickly. At Bree, householders on the inner side could likely
&gt;always see the hedge at all points.

Perhaps I should have emphasized the work &quot;ideal.&quot; A hedge can
certainly be used for defensive purposes. If nothing else, it
discourages &quot;smash and grab&quot; lightning raids and can also serve as a
temporary defensive barrier. It is not ideal because it is
combustible. Any determined attacker can simply pin down the
defenders with volleys of arrows while setting fire to it. Bree was
located on a hill and therefore water must either have been drawn from
wells or perhaps captured in cisterns. In any case, I seriously doubt
the villagers of Bree were trained in warfare and siege craft and able
to defend a hedge from even an orc raid. As others have pointed out
in this discussion, the Bree villagers were almost as sheltered as the
inhabitants of the Shire and unknowingly relied on the Rangers for
their protection.

I also wonder if you are taking the age of Bree into account. At the
time of this tale, Bree was at least 1,600 years old! That is
certainly ample time to build a defensive wall if the inhabitants were
so inclined. In fact, such a wall should have been a priority after
the downfall of Arnor. Yet we know that the Breelanders only relied
on a ditch and a hedge. This suggests to me that the Breelanders were
sensible people who preferred to hide during an invasion rather than
defend their homes against such an army as Angmar was able to field.
Dwarves regularly passed through Bree as they journeyed East and
probably would have only too happy to help design and build a wall.
(Recall that in The Hobbit, Thorin and company were able to build a
strong defensive wall across the Gate of the Lonely Mountain in just a
matter of days. A stout wall encircling the entire hill of Bree
should not have been much of a challenge for the dwarves.)

&gt;&lt;&lt;The gates were most likely designed to allow people to bring in their
&gt;flocks and herds as well as carts and wagons. The fact that it allowed
&gt;the Breelanders to limit access to their community was just a bonus. &gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;I would submit this is also wrong. You overlook what JRRT writes:
&gt;&quot;there was a deep dike with a thick hedge on the inner side&quot;. If I
&gt;want a hedge for mere animal control, then I naturally fill in a deep
&gt;dike so that the animals do not fall in and break bones. Nor do I need
&gt;a thick hedge, a thin one will do. Nor do I keep one or two Bree
&gt;gatekeepers up all night every night, decade after decade, to maintain
&gt;surveillance on travellers. On the contrary, the Bree dike ie dry
&gt;moat, which may carry rainwater at some times of year, should have the
&gt;same 3 functions that all moats had from Jericho 7,000 BC to eg the
&gt;Russo-Japanese War of 1905 (Port Arthur forts): 1. braking a frontal
&gt;attack on foot against on a hedge/wall to breach the wall/hedge 2.
&gt;making storm by escalade ie ladders more difficult, by artificially
&gt;increasing the height of the requisite ladder by the depth of the ditch
&gt;3. forcing any attempt to sap ie drive a tunnel under the hedge/wall to
&gt;go even deeper, again by the depth of the moat, which then causes a
&gt;severe problem of ventilation for the sappers, who have to start their
&gt;mine out of bowshot of the line of defence ie hedge anyway, and thus
&gt;have a tunnel ca 100 meters long and several meters deep. Military
&gt;writers have commented on this problem. But the Bree hedge in FOTR is
&gt;actually illogically incomplete, as it has the military features
&gt;(thickness, dike, gatekeeper) which imply it should encircle all three
&gt;towns and not just Bree.

We both agree that the defensive system established by the Breelanders
was inadequate. This suggests that it was not intended for defense
from marauding armies or other military threats. I therefore conclude
that there are only three other reasonable possibilities: The
Breelanders maintained the hedge out of respect for the work of their
ancestors; it was intended to demarcate property lines (as Belba Grubb
of Stock suggested); or that it was a useful barrier designed to repel
predators, protect livestock and control access to Bree.

The fact that The Prancing Pony had been maintained for many
generations by the Butterbur family as well as the clannish nature of
the hobbits suggests that the Breelanders shared something of the
Numenorean obsession with ancestor worship (which I use for the lack
of a better description.) It is certainly plausible and was almost
certainly a factor, but I do not think that it adequately or
satisfactorily explains the existence of the hedge. The Breelanders
seem entirely too practical to maintain a hedge and gates simply
because that is the way it has always been done.

Hedges were certainly used to demarcate property in Bree. Bill
Ferny's house is described as having a hedge, for example. We also
know that this custom was common in the Shire as well and that many of
the Shire traditions originated in Bree. We both agree, however, that
the hedge in question is too tall and too well protected to be merely
a boundary line.

That leaves only the third possibility: It was a barrier with
practical purposes of which defense was only one--and probably not the
most important--function.

&gt;At best, I could imagine that JRRT did not realise the implications of
&gt;such a structure, or perhaps thought that the hedge was the remnant of
&gt;a full-circle hedge, or abutted onto perhaps a now-destroyed stone
&gt;defensive wall like the Rammas Echor (Gondor) on the other side of the
&gt;hill. But that does not square with what I cited Aragorn as saying at
&gt;Council of Elrond viz. that there are enemies within a day´s march of
&gt;Bree. If so, a town hedge is needed.
&gt;
&gt;&lt;&lt;The notion of hedges to mark personal property is too &quot;modern&quot; for
&gt;this tale? Then please explain why there were so many hedges in the
&gt;Shire even in neighborhoods where livestock was scare. &gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;The Shire is a hangover from The Hobbit. JRRT saw it as an idealised
&gt;Edwardian England, with strong bourgeois property rights. We know that
&gt;JRRT had no idea of the rest of LOTR while writing FOTR and never
&gt;unified all 3 books: he says so in his Letters, I believe. Brandywine
&gt;Bridge is like a time machine: cross it going East, and you step back
&gt;into mediaeval times.

If a story-external explanation is required, then I can just as easily
point out that Tolkien's reputation as a medieval scholar is vastly
overrated. Tolkien would have been the last to describe himself as
such; he always referred to himself as either a philologist or as an
author. He possessed a detailed knowledge of medieval literature, but
not of medieval history.

Moreover at this point in the story, Bree is not at all far from the
Shire. Indeed it differs from the Shire only in that has a population
of Big Folk. You have acknowledged that hedges defined property lines
in the Shire (&quot;with strong bourgeois property rights&quot;) and therefore
it is not unreasonable to conclude that the situation is similar in
Bree--especially since we know that Bree is by the far the older
settlement.
&gt;
&gt;&lt;&lt;A ditch also prevents a mounted sortie; Even the strongest horse will
&gt;
&gt;break a leg if it falls into a hole in the ground. That was one of
&gt;the reasons why the armies of Mordor dug so many ditches/trenches when
&gt;they assailed Minas Tirith. &lt;&lt;
&gt;
&gt;Minas Tirith, like the Hornburg, is an inferior fortification because
&gt;1. it has no barbican to protect its weak point ie the gate. 2. it has
&gt;no dry or wet moat to achieve the 3 purposes of such ditches. At best,
&gt;you can excuse JRRT on account of motte-and-bailey castles being a
&gt;novelty in England introduced by the Normans after 1066, and we know
&gt;how JRRT hated the influence of French on English, so maybe JRRT had an
&gt;emotional block against designing proper mediaeval (or Late Roman: AD
&gt;400!) fortresses ie those with moat and barbican..

I too have always been puzzled by the lack of a moat in front of the
wall. The citizens of Gondor could build a defensive wall thirty
miles long around the Pelennor, but could not dig a thirty or forty
foot wide moat in front of the city wall? The only explanation that I
can come up with is that they feared that such a moat might weaken the
strength of the wall somehow. (Recall that Minas Tirith was perched
on the side of a mountain.) I am not sure how likely that is,
however, and am not prepared to defend the theory.
&gt;
&gt;Please give me examples from 7,000 BC (Jericho) to the Polish horse
&gt;cavalry charge against the German tanks (1939) of where an
&gt;attacker/besieger dug trenches to prevent cavalry sorties. I cannot
&gt;recall any. Excavation work is very labour intensive.

Labor was not a problem for Sauron. He not only had enough Orcs to
dig the trenches on the Pelennor, but he was able to spare whole
detachments just for the purpose of destroying the outwall. Labor was
not a factor in the siege of Minas Tirith.

&gt; Attackers build trenches for 1. sapping, with/without gunpowder 7,000 BC onwards,
&gt;especially ca 1550-1800 eg Vauban, Montalembert. 2. defence against accurate fire from rifled barrels post-1851, especially the machine gun after 1880, hence the trench warfare of WW1 until tanks were invented
&gt;as a counter to the machine gun. Instead (Hastings 1066, Crecy, Agincourt) bowmen took along long sharp stakes to stick in the ground and break up a cavalry charge by spearing the oncoming horses.

<a href="http://www.crystalinks.com/romemilitary.html" target="_blank">http://www.crystalinks.com/romemilitary.html</a>

Here is an interesting discussion of medieval logistics. Permit me to
quote from it:

&quot;The reason why castles had to be attacked and taken by an opposing
army was that they controlled the surrounding land by means of the
mounted force within them. The range of the castle was the range of
the horse and armored rider, not the limited field of the defensive
weaponry based within it and which, with its design, made it a near
impregnable base. [&quot;The Middle Ages: A Concise Encyclopedia&quot; H.R.
Loyns]

The Rohirrim fought primarily on horseback. Hence, they regarded the
Helm's Deep as a stockade behind which they could retreat while they
rearmed and treated their wounded and then remounted to assail the
enemy again rather than as a stronghold to be defended at all costs.
They lacked experience in siege warfare and hence were singularly
ill-suited to defend either the Hornburg or Minas Tirith - a point
that Theodon himself acknowledged. (&quot;But he knows that we are a
people who fight rather upon horseback and in the open, and that we
are also a scattered people and time is needed for the gathering of
our Riders.&quot;)

Let me also quote from an essay by Andrew Ayton in &quot;Medieval Warfare:
A History&quot; [Oxford University Press, 1999]: &quot;That long-established
ruse, the digging of ditches or pits to impede the deployment of
cavalry, proved effective at Courtrai, Bannockburn, and elsewhere,
while at Kephissos in 1311, the Catalan Company took up position
behind a marsh.&quot;

Lastly, I should point out that Tolkien's own words point to the
purpose of the trenches! From &quot;The Ride of the Rohirrim&quot;:

'Alas! he speaks all too shrewdly,' said Theoden. 'And our scouts say
that they have cast trenches and stakes across the road. We cannot
sweep them away in sudden onset.&quot;

I submit that this is sufficient proof that the trenches on the
Pelennor were intended both to protect the engines and to prevent any
mounted sortie from Minas Tirith.

&gt;Contrary to what you write, I submit that in view of military history
&gt;in our own world, JRRT can only have added trenches with mysterious
&gt;fires (&quot;as the trenches were made, each was filled with fire&quot;:
&gt;ROTK) to the siege of Minas Tirith because he wanted to have the Orcs
&gt;drive saps from ther trenches, out of bowshot, under the city walls and
&gt;then blow breaches from below using the same (gunpowder) devilry as at
&gt;the Hornburg. Maybe the &quot;fires&quot; are accidental explosions of
&gt;explosive being brought up to tunnel mouths by Orcs. But then, as JRRT
&gt;makes no mention of this tactic (first explosive mine used at the
&gt;Turkish siege of Belgrade before 1400), I suppose he preferred to have
&gt;Grond and siege towers do the siege work in a traditional pre-gunpowder
&gt;way instead. This is illogical on JRRT´s part, because if Saruman´s
&gt;Orcs could blow the culvert at the Hornburg, I cannot imagine that
&gt;Sauron´s people had no access to that explosive.

I find that notion utterly ridiculous in the context of the siege.
Minas Tirith was built upon solid stone that must have been granite or
some other stone that is especially resistant to weathering since the
city was over 2,000 years old. Tunneling or even blasting through it
would have been a very time-consuming task and time was one of the few
things that the Witch-King and his army did not have. It is essential
to bear in mind that Sauron thought that Aragorn or Gandalf had the
Ring at Minas Tirith; Every hour that passed was yet another hour in
which his enemies could unlock the secrets of the Ring and master it.
The last thing that Sauron wanted was a protracted siege. That was
why the Witch-King made the fatal error of dispatching an army to
prevent the Rohirrim from entering Anorien. The smartest strategy
would have been to lure the Rohirrim into the Pelennor and then smash
them against the walls of Minas Tirith while the Corsairs destroyed
the southern fiefs. Had the Witch-King done so, Gondor certainly
would have perished for it would have been deprived of any aid
whatsoever while Sauron could always bring up reinforcements from the
south or east. The Witch-King relied instead on brute force and
full-frontal assaults to breach the defenses and capture the city.

I also wish to mention that sapping by tunneling beneath walls was
rarely effective when the objective was a large city rather than an
isolated castle. During the final siege of Constantinople in 1453,
for example, the Turks drove no fewer than 116 different shafts
beneath city walls and the defenders defeated every attempt.

&gt;And do you know how wide a ditch has to be before a horse cannot jump
&gt;over it? Now convert that to cubic meters of soil to be moved by
&gt;labouring Orcs over a distance, say of several hundred meters...or the
&gt;perimeter of Minas Tirith. So I see no evidence that Orcs dug trenches
&gt;to break up a horse-mounted attack, not least because they had no idea
&gt;that the Rohirrim were at their rear, otherwise they would not have
&gt;stupidly left the Rammas Echor unattended for the most part. On top of
&gt;that, digging trenches everywhere restricts your own freedom of
&gt;movement. I have a feeling JRRT´s trench experience of WW1 may have
&gt;coloured his account of the Minas Tirith siege: the apparent tactics
&gt;(gunpowder age trench mining) do not fit the pre-gunpowder technology
&gt;used (siege towers, battering ram).

You seem to have forgotten the mounted sortie that Prince Imrahil led
to rescue Faramir! Look at it from the perspective of the Witch-King:
The army that has successfully delayed his army from crossing the
river is broken and must be annihilated if he wishes to quickly
capture the city. His troops savagely attack the rearguard while his
cavalry races to flank it and his fellow Nazgul swoop in for the kill.
For a fleeting moment victory is his: the retreat becomes a rout and
a slaughter. Then, suddenly, from the city the Prince and his mounted
knights and Gandalf come racing to the rescue. They butcher his
vanguard, scatter the cavalry and allow the remnants of Faramir's army
to be safely extracted from the trap and brought into the city.

Now what is to prevent this scenario from occurring again? He cannot
bring his own troops too close to the wall without exposing them to
archers and fire from the defenders. They must be close enough to the
walls, however, to prevent Gondor from erecting temporary defensive
barriers which would further delay the conquest of the city. The
invaders must also protect the their siege engines from a
counterattack. The obvious solution is a trench filled with fire to
deter horses and infantry charges.
&gt;
&gt;As JRRT reviled modern English literature after and including
&gt;Shakespeare, I see no reason to think he knew anything about gunpowder
&gt;age sieges post-1494 (1st use of wheeled cannon in Italy campaign of
&gt;Charles V: mass destruction of mediaeval castle walls).
&gt;
&gt;Lastly, Google Captain Lendy´s British Army manual for field engineers
&gt;of ca 1860: it does not mention any trenchworks against horses such as
&gt;you are alleging.

I thought it was obvious that the British had firearms and hence
different defensive tactics and strategies.
&gt;
&gt;&lt;&lt;The Numenoreans certainly maintained and probably improved the road,
&gt;but that does necessarily mean that it had been built by the
&gt;Numenoreans. &gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;Look, if you want to deny footnote 6 of UT´s &quot;Disaster of the
&gt;Gladden Fields&quot;, feel free, but I don´t have to believe you.

I have read that footnote. It does not explicitly state the
Numenoreans built the East-West road. I repeat three essential facts:

1. The dwarven cities of Khazad-dum in the Misty Mountains and
Belegost and Nogrod in the Blue Mountains predate the Havens,
Rivendell and Numenor.

2. There must have been a road through Eriador between these cities
since we know from both the Silmarillion and LoTR that there was trade
between these cities.

3. The Havens and Rivendell predate the foundation of Arnor. Most of
the Noldor of Eregion perished in the invasion of Eriador in 1695 of
the Second Age. Would the remaining Elves have undertaken such labor
to build a road over the long miles between Rivendell and the Havens?

I do not doubt that Elendil and his followers improved and maintained
the road. They may even have altered the course of it somewhat. Why
go to all the trouble of building a new road when there is already an
existing road that can be enlarged and improved? Arnor was not as
populous as Gondor and hence quite likely had a smaller pool of labor
and stonewrights to draw upon. Moreover, the war of the Last Alliance
occurred a mere 110 years after the foundation of Arnor. In
consideration of the labor and time necessary to build and maintain
all of their cities and fortifications (Amon Sul, Fornost, Tharbad, et
cetera), it is likely that the Dunedain would have preferred to
improve an existing road rather than build a new road. I submit that
the evidence is insufficient to render a final verdict on this issue.

Morgoth's Curse

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#2: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-10 09:13:07 by Michael

Morgoth's Curse a =E9crit :

&gt; Let me begin by asking why you seem to be taking personal offense in
&gt; this post and other posts in this thread. I hate to say so, but you
&gt; are reacting almost exactly as the notorious Michael Martinez would.
&gt; As many of the regulars here can testify, if you disagreed with
&gt; Martinez in any manner on any subject whatsoever, he would immediately
&gt; vindictively and vituperatively vilify you.

Anyone making such a testimony about me would be lying, as you well
know. I have never responded that way to anyone.

--
If you could get honest discussion from the Tolkien Flame Groups...wel,
you can't. So there.

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#3: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-11 23:51:46 by Dimitrios Tzortzakakis

? &lt;<a href="mailto:Michael&#64;xenite.org" target="_blank">Michael&#64;xenite.org</a>&gt; ?????? ??? ??????
news:<a href="mailto:1152515587.558928.325450&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152515587.558928.325450&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
Morgoth's Curse a écrit :

&gt; Let me begin by asking why you seem to be taking personal offense in
&gt; this post and other posts in this thread. I hate to say so, but you
&gt; are reacting almost exactly as the notorious Michael Martinez would.
&gt; As many of the regulars here can testify, if you disagreed with
&gt; Martinez in any manner on any subject whatsoever, he would immediately
&gt; vindictively and vituperatively vilify you.

&gt;Anyone making such a testimony about me would be &gt;lying, as you well
&gt;know. I have never responded that way to anyone.

Vous êtes français?


--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering,freelance electrician
542nd mechanized infantry batallion
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr

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#4: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-12 06:07:37 by Michael

Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:
&gt; ? &lt;<a href="mailto:Michael&#64;xenite.org" target="_blank">Michael&#64;xenite.org</a>&gt; ?????? ??? ??????
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1152515587.558928.325450&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152515587.558928.325450&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; Morgoth's Curse a =E9crit :
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Let me begin by asking why you seem to be taking personal offense in
&gt; &gt; this post and other posts in this thread. I hate to say so, but you
&gt; &gt; are reacting almost exactly as the notorious Michael Martinez would.
&gt; &gt; As many of the regulars here can testify, if you disagreed with
&gt; &gt; Martinez in any manner on any subject whatsoever, he would immediately
&gt; &gt; vindictively and vituperatively vilify you.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Anyone making such a testimony about me would be &gt;lying, as you well
&gt; &gt;know. I have never responded that way to anyone.
&gt;
&gt; Vous =EAtes fran=E7ais?

I am not french. I found the lie by Morgoth's Curse through Google
France.

Je ne suis pas fran=E7ais. J'ai trouv=E9 le mensonge par Curse de
Morgoth's par Google France.

I was curious to see how my reply would look from Google France.

J'=E9tais curieux pour voir comment ma r=E9ponse regarderait de Google
France.

--
Now you're Tolkien my language.

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#5: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-12 06:59:09 by Larry Swain

&gt; --
&gt; Now you're Tolkien my language.

Oi, that's bad Michael....;)

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#6: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-12 15:39:54 by Dimitrios Tzortzakakis

? &lt;<a href="mailto:Michael&#64;xenite.org" target="_blank">Michael&#64;xenite.org</a>&gt; ?????? ??? ??????
news:<a href="mailto:1152677257.773592.157100&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152677257.773592.157100&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...</a>
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:
&gt; ? &lt;<a href="mailto:Michael&#64;xenite.org" target="_blank">Michael&#64;xenite.org</a>&gt; ?????? ??? ??????
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1152515587.558928.325450&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152515587.558928.325450&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; Morgoth's Curse a écrit :
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Let me begin by asking why you seem to be taking personal offense in
&gt; &gt; this post and other posts in this thread. I hate to say so, but you
&gt; &gt; are reacting almost exactly as the notorious Michael Martinez would.
&gt; &gt; As many of the regulars here can testify, if you disagreed with
&gt; &gt; Martinez in any manner on any subject whatsoever, he would immediately
&gt; &gt; vindictively and vituperatively vilify you.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Anyone making such a testimony about me would be &gt;lying, as you well
&gt; &gt;know. I have never responded that way to anyone.
&gt;
&gt; Vous êtes français?

&gt;I am not french. I found the lie by Morgoth's Curse &gt;through Google
&gt;France.

&gt;Je ne suis pas français. J'ai trouvé le mensonge par &gt;Curse de
&gt;Morgoth's par Google France.

&gt;I was curious to see how my reply would look from &gt;Google France.

&gt;J'étais curieux pour voir comment ma réponse &gt;regarderait de Google
&gt;France.
Desolèe, excusez-moi.
--
Now you're Tolkien my language.
Oui, merci beaucoup.

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#7: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-12 23:51:46 by bredband.net

&quot;Larry Swain&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:theswain&#64;operamail.com" target="_blank">theswain&#64;operamail.com</a>&gt; skrev i meddelandet
news:<a href="mailto:19idnSiCsPMLHCnZnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d&#64;rcn.net..." target="_blank">19idnSiCsPMLHCnZnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d&#64;rcn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt; --
&gt;&gt; Now you're Tolkien my language.
&gt;
&gt; Oi, that's bad Michael....;)

Please don't forsake me, oh my balrog!
Please don't forsake me on my wedding day!

Öjevind

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#8: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-13 04:05:42 by Michael

Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:
&gt; ? &lt;<a href="mailto:Michael&#64;xenite.org" target="_blank">Michael&#64;xenite.org</a>&gt; ?????? ??? ??????
&gt; &gt;I am not french. I found the lie by Morgoth's Curse &gt;through Google
&gt; &gt;France.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Je ne suis pas fran=E7ais. J'ai trouv=E9 le mensonge par &gt;Curse de
&gt; &gt;Morgoth's par Google France.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;I was curious to see how my reply would look from &gt;Google France.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;J'=E9tais curieux pour voir comment ma r=E9ponse &gt;regarderait de Google
&gt; &gt;France.
&gt; Desol=E8e, excusez-moi.

I guess the worst part is that a year from now Morgoth's Curse will
return to this discussion. By then Larry Swain will be falsely
claiming I've attacked people in two dozen forums for mentioning my
name. I notice he has increased the number to 12 as of a few weeks
ago.

Je devine que la plus mauvaise partie est que la mal=E9diction de
Morgoth d'ann=E9e en date de maintenant reviendra =E0 cette discussion.
D'ici l=E0 Larry Swain sera faussement r=E9clamant moi ont attaqu=E9 des
personnes dans deux forum douzaine pour mentionner mon nom. Je note
qu'il a augment=E9 le nombre =E0 12 en date il y a de quelques semaines.

And people wonder why I don't &quot;contribute&quot; to the Tolkien groups more
often. I cannot keep up with the volume of lies posted by so few
individuals.

Et les gens se demandent pourquoi je &quot;ne contribue pas&quot; aux groupes de
Tolkien plus souvent. Je ne peux pas suivre le volume de mensonges
signal=E9 par tellement peu d'individus.

Please forgive my poor French. I used Babelfish to translate.

Veuillez pardonner mon fran=E7ais faible. J'avais l'habitude Babelfish
pour traduire.
--
Tolkien discussions are like liar's competitions: honest people don't
stand a chance. So much for Tolkien.

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#9: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-13 15:47:38 by Dimitrios Tzortzakakis

? &lt;<a href="mailto:Michael&#64;xenite.org" target="_blank">Michael&#64;xenite.org</a>&gt; ?????? ??? ??????
news:<a href="mailto:1152756342.160593.325350&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152756342.160593.325350&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...</a>
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:
&gt; ? &lt;<a href="mailto:Michael&#64;xenite.org" target="_blank">Michael&#64;xenite.org</a>&gt; ?????? ??? ??????
&gt; &gt;I am not french. I found the lie by Morgoth's Curse &gt;through Google
&gt; &gt;France.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Je ne suis pas français. J'ai trouvé le mensonge par &gt;Curse de
&gt; &gt;Morgoth's par Google France.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;I was curious to see how my reply would look from &gt;Google France.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;J'étais curieux pour voir comment ma réponse &gt;regarderait de Google
&gt; &gt;France.
&gt; Desolèe, excusez-moi.


&gt;Please forgive my poor French. I used Babelfish to &gt;translate.

&gt;Veuillez pardonner mon français faible. J'avais &gt;l'habitude Babelfish
&gt;pour traduire.
I don't use the babelfish so I've run out of french expressions, now.I hope
my french will get better with studying.
--
Tolkien discussions are like liar's competitions: honest people don't
stand a chance. So much for Tolkien.

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#10: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-15 04:00:07 by Odysseus

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1152756342.160593.325350&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1152756342.160593.325350&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:Michael&#64;xenite.org" target="_blank">Michael&#64;xenite.org</a> wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Please forgive my poor French. I used Babelfish to translate.
&gt;
&gt; Veuillez pardonner mon français faible. J'avais l'habitude Babelfish
&gt; pour traduire.

Why even bother? The results are (as usual for all such services)
atrocious!

--
Odysseus

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#11: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-15 04:07:04 by Phlip

Odysseus wrote:

&gt;&gt; Please forgive my poor French. I used Babelfish to translate.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Veuillez pardonner mon français faible. J'avais l'habitude Babelfish
&gt;&gt; pour traduire.
&gt;
&gt; Why even bother? The results are (as usual for all such services)
&gt; atrocious!

Hey, I worked for the company backing that thing once!

Wasn't allowed to fix it... ;-)

--
Phlip
<a href="http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand" target="_blank">http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand</a> &lt;-- NOT a blog!!!

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#12: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-15 15:58:52 by Een Wilde Ier

Morgoth's Curse wrote:
&gt; On 27 Oct 2005 11:16:27 -0700, &quot;elendur&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:elendur&#64;arcor.de" target="_blank">elendur&#64;arcor.de</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; (Morgoths´Curse comments are in chevrons)
&lt;snip&gt;
&gt; I also wonder if you are taking the age of Bree into account. At the
&gt; time of this tale, Bree was at least 1,600 years old! That is
&gt; certainly ample time to build a defensive wall if the inhabitants were
&gt; so inclined. In fact, such a wall should have been a priority after
&gt; the downfall of Arnor. Yet we know that the Breelanders only relied
&gt; on a ditch and a hedge. This suggests to me that the Breelanders were
&gt; sensible people who preferred to hide during an invasion rather than
&gt; defend their homes against such an army as Angmar was able to field.
&gt; Dwarves regularly passed through Bree as they journeyed East and
&gt; probably would have only too happy to help design and build a wall.
&gt; (Recall that in The Hobbit, Thorin and company were able to build a
&gt; strong defensive wall across the Gate of the Lonely Mountain in just a
&gt; matter of days. A stout wall encircling the entire hill of Bree
&gt; should not have been much of a challenge for the dwarves.)

There may have been one (or even several) stone walls around the town
throughout its' history: it's entirely possible that the villagers may
have dismantled it for stone for building in times of peace (as happened
frequently in our own real history).

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#13: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-16 15:13:36 by Henriette

Een Wilde Ier schreef:

&gt; There may have been one (or even several) stone walls around the town
&gt; throughout its' history: it's entirely possible that the villagers may
&gt; have dismantled it for stone for building in times of peace (as happened
&gt; frequently in our own real history).

I especially liked the Daulkey Baby-Castle!

HB

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#14: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-16 15:45:39 by Een Wilde Ier

Henriette wrote:
&gt; Een Wilde Ier schreef:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; There may have been one (or even several) stone walls around the town
&gt;&gt; throughout its' history: it's entirely possible that the villagers may
&gt;&gt; have dismantled it for stone for building in times of peace (as happened
&gt;&gt; frequently in our own real history).
&gt;
&gt; I especially liked the Daulkey Baby-Castle!

*I* especially liked the warm pub when we got to the top of that hill

:-P

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#15: Re: Bree defences and the building of the Great East Road

Posted on 2006-07-20 10:45:52 by Henriette

Een Wilde Ier schreef:

&gt; *I* especially liked the warm pub when we got to the top of that hill
&gt;
I suppose you'd like sitting next to the blazing open hearth a lot less
*today*?;-)

HB

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