Bookmarks

Yahoo Gmail Google Facebook Delicious Twitter Reddit Stumpleupon Myspace Digg

Search queries

why did Scabbers bite goyle, fuldataler mineralwasser, bikemate fahrradcomputer t52434 anleitung, frank zappa iq 172 liam gallagher 164, "heartbroke kid" "previous episode references", bikemate t52434 anleitung, marietta edgecombe cop out, kaufland autobatterie, nasi goreng in dosen kaufen, micromaxx mm 3544 universalfernbedienung

Links

XODOX
Impressum

#1: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-18 11:42:18 by jibriel

Y'all being some big dragon nerds, it would make sense for you to run
down to the local borders or what-have-you and find Naomi Novik in the
SF/F section. Ever since Anne "Dirty Old Lady" McCaffrey destroyed my
brain in junior high I have been just a big homo* for dragons, and
since I first laid my hands on some Dickens I have been just as big a
homo for 19th century England. SO when I saw a book called "Her
Majesty's Dragon" (or apparently titled "Temeraire" in the UK)
published by Del Rey (instead of Baen or Tor, for example) I hesitated
maybe a whole 3 or 4 seconds before buying it. Four hours later I'd
finished it. Read it a couple times since then.

IN SUMMARY. It is set during the Napoleonic wars, opening with our
hero Captain Will Laurence of HMS Reliant as he finishes up the capture
of a French 36-gun frigate. The period language is crisp and
consistent while still managing to be light. If you have ever snacked
on some George Eliot you will know that 19th century English is,
although totally rad, usually hard to describe as "light". It is
something of a testament to Mrs. Novik's skills, then, that she's able
to bust out the flavor of the period with none of the heavy grease.
Bravo.

Moving on in the plot, it is discovered that the reason the Frogs put
up such an unfroggishly-ferocious** fight (alliteration always adds
alot) is that they were carrying a dragon's egg. The shell is quite
hardened, which indicates it will hatch soon. That it does, the
resulting slimy black little guy picking Laurence to give him his name.
In a panic, Laurence gives him the elegant name "Temeraire." Very
different from the normal mode of naming dragons in Latin, but as he
stole the name of one of HM's finest ships of war, not to mention a
very snazzy one from a captured French vessel, it works out quite well.

The rest of the book is devoted to Temeraire growing into his own, and
the developing relationship between the two of them, as well as
Laurence getting used to the decidedly gauche manners of his now-fellow
aviators. I'm not ashamed to admit it: I just couldn't get enough of L
+ T being best buds forever. There's a particularly touching scene
near the end where they wake up together before they'll have to go into
battle and it just makes me wish for a winged friend of my own to be
righteously devoted to.

Mrs. Novik also has a couple nice touches mixing dragons into the age
of gunpowder, kitting them out with harnesses upon which ride crews of
bombadiers, riflemen, and lookouts, converting the dragon into a sort
of flying patrol boat. A patrol boat that happens to grow attached to
its crew and gets jealous if it thinks other boats are trying to steal
members.

I've also devoured Throne of Jade and Blackpowder War, the next two
books in the series (which is rumored to be a planned 6 books long).
They weren't quite as enjoyable as the more carefree HMD, but they're
certainly fun in their own right.

*relax, I've slept with enough members of my own gender to use the
word, thanks
**a throwaway joke, I am well aware of the military prowess of the
French

Report this message

#2: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-18 22:26:32 by Kalos Kalyre

Captain's log, stardate 6/18/2006 2:42 AM. We have received a mysterious
message from <a href="mailto:jibriel&#64;gmail.com." target="_blank">jibriel&#64;gmail.com.</a> Message follows:
&gt; Y'all being some big dragon nerds, it would make sense for you to run
&gt; down to the local borders or what-have-you and find Naomi Novik in the
&gt; SF/F section. Ever since Anne &quot;Dirty Old Lady&quot; McCaffrey destroyed my
&gt; brain in junior high I have been just a big homo* for dragons, and
&gt; since I first laid my hands on some Dickens I have been just as big a
&gt; homo for 19th century England. SO when I saw a book called &quot;Her
&gt; Majesty's Dragon&quot; (or apparently titled &quot;Temeraire&quot; in the UK)
&gt; published by Del Rey (instead of Baen or Tor, for example) I hesitated
&gt; maybe a whole 3 or 4 seconds before buying it. Four hours later I'd
&gt; finished it. Read it a couple times since then.
&lt;snip&gt;

Sounds pretty interesting, thanks.

--
-Kalos

Peace and peppermint cheesecake to all.

Bearer of one Pickaxe of Icebreaking from Flame Stryke and one Yellow
Rose of Friendship from Gilraen.

DC2.Dw Gm L- W-- T Phwaplt Sks,wl,bh Cja-\bz,v~ Bfl A- Fr- N? M--- O H++
$~ F+~ R* Ac++ J+ S---! U- I---# V-- Q---! Tc++[QBASIC] E+
The Dragon Classification Project calls me a: class Xenosauria
(xeno=strange, saur=lizard), subclass Pterosauria (Lizard Dragon), order
Squamadraconia (Scaled Dragon), suborder Draconia (Western Dragon),
family Pterodraconia (General Western Dragon), genus Pseudodraco (False
Dragon), species Pseudodraco parvus (parvus=small)

See my art at <a href="http://kaloskalyre.deviantart.com/" target="_blank">http://kaloskalyre.deviantart.com/</a> | Read my blog at
<a href="http://kaloskalyre.livejournal.com/" target="_blank">http://kaloskalyre.livejournal.com/</a>

&quot;Offering good advice may be noble and grand, but it's not the same as a
helping hand.&quot; -Unknown

Report this message

#3: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-24 01:14:58 by jrrhack

<a href="mailto:jibriel&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">jibriel&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Y'all being some big dragon nerds, it would make sense for you to run
&gt; down to the local borders or what-have-you and find Naomi Novik in the
&gt; SF/F section. Ever since Anne &quot;Dirty Old Lady&quot; McCaffrey destroyed my
&gt; brain in junior high I have been just a big homo* for dragons, and
&gt; since I first laid my hands on some Dickens I have been just as big a
&gt; homo for 19th century England. SO when I saw a book called &quot;Her
&gt; Majesty's Dragon&quot; (or apparently titled &quot;Temeraire&quot; in the UK)
&gt; published by Del Rey (instead of Baen or Tor, for example) I hesitated
&gt; maybe a whole 3 or 4 seconds before buying it. Four hours later I'd
&gt; finished it. Read it a couple times since then.
&gt;

Lol. I can=B4t read Mccaffrey books, I tried reading two of them, but it
simply focus more on what humand do and treat dragons as horses

Report this message

#4: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-24 01:37:39 by jkarrah

&lt;<a href="mailto:jrrhack&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">jrrhack&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1151104498.887031.92770&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1151104498.887031.92770&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>

<a href="mailto:jibriel&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">jibriel&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Y'all being some big dragon nerds, it would make sense for you to run
&gt; down to the local borders or what-have-you and find Naomi Novik in the
&gt; SF/F section. Ever since Anne &quot;Dirty Old Lady&quot; McCaffrey destroyed my
&gt; brain in junior high I have been just a big homo* for dragons, and
&gt; since I first laid my hands on some Dickens I have been just as big a
&gt; homo for 19th century England. SO when I saw a book called &quot;Her
&gt; Majesty's Dragon&quot; (or apparently titled &quot;Temeraire&quot; in the UK)
&gt; published by Del Rey (instead of Baen or Tor, for example) I hesitated
&gt; maybe a whole 3 or 4 seconds before buying it. Four hours later I'd
&gt; finished it. Read it a couple times since then.
&gt;

&gt; Lol. I can´t read Mccaffrey books, I tried reading two of them, but it
&gt; simply focus more on what humand do and treat dragons as horses

Well, if you don't like the Pern books you defiantly won't like these since
the dragons are treated as nothing more than weapons of war trained to fight
and kill one another.

I've just finished all three books and I have to say I did enjoy them.
While not really comfortable with the way the dragons were used from a
personal stand point, that is &quot;just the way things are&quot; in the alternate
reality in which the stories take place. Getting upset over what is, in
effect, the &quot;natural order&quot; of things in that universe makes no sense.
Besides, in all of the multiverse who is to say there ins't a world exactly
like this somewhere.

I've seen many people (dragonkin and otherwise) sing the praises of the Pit
Dragon trilogy. This series is much less offensive because here at least
the dragons are trained to fight in defense of their country like the human
soldiers who fight and die beside them instead of fighting to the death in a
game for the bloodthirsty entertainment of the masses.



--

~J'Karrah

The EbonDragon's Lair: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/</a>
Dragon Sculptures: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html</a>
The Store Front: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html</a>


&quot;Imagination Soars on Dragon Wings,&quot; J'Karrah EbonDragon

Report this message

#5: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-24 14:14:58 by jibriel

what

sir you are absolutely off your peanut

The books themselves spend all kinds of time building the dragons as
characters in and of themselves, from the simple (but adorable) Volly
to the ruminations on slavery Temeraire is so fond of.

It's true that the Western societies treat dragons as instruments of
war and nothing else, but part of what the series does is play with the
injustice of that idea. Not least in Throne of Jade, where she's got
an integrated dragons and humans society going on. Or even in Turkey,
with some dragons showing up at the mosque.

In the pern books the dragons are maybe just a little bit brighter than
Volly, and Mnementh certainly spent exactly 0 time grumbling about how
the MAN was keeping his BROTHERS AND SISTERS down. The impression is
also much stronger, with dragons generally killing themselves after
they lost a rider. In Novik's books, there's grief, but since dragon
and rider stay together longer than pretty much all married couples,
well. That is understandable.

In summary: the dragons themselves are different. They are smarter,
more engaging, and have their own personalities. Pern dragons were
none of this.
J'Karrah EbonDragon wrote:
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:jrrhack&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">jrrhack&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1151104498.887031.92770&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1151104498.887031.92770&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; <a href="mailto:jibriel&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">jibriel&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; Y'all being some big dragon nerds, it would make sense for you to run
&gt; &gt; down to the local borders or what-have-you and find Naomi Novik in the
&gt; &gt; SF/F section. Ever since Anne &quot;Dirty Old Lady&quot; McCaffrey destroyed my
&gt; &gt; brain in junior high I have been just a big homo* for dragons, and
&gt; &gt; since I first laid my hands on some Dickens I have been just as big a
&gt; &gt; homo for 19th century England. SO when I saw a book called &quot;Her
&gt; &gt; Majesty's Dragon&quot; (or apparently titled &quot;Temeraire&quot; in the UK)
&gt; &gt; published by Del Rey (instead of Baen or Tor, for example) I hesitated
&gt; &gt; maybe a whole 3 or 4 seconds before buying it. Four hours later I'd
&gt; &gt; finished it. Read it a couple times since then.
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Lol. I can=B4t read Mccaffrey books, I tried reading two of them, but it
&gt; &gt; simply focus more on what humand do and treat dragons as horses
&gt;
&gt; Well, if you don't like the Pern books you defiantly won't like these sin=
ce
&gt; the dragons are treated as nothing more than weapons of war trained to fi=
ght
&gt; and kill one another.
&gt;
&gt; I've just finished all three books and I have to say I did enjoy them.
&gt; While not really comfortable with the way the dragons were used from a
&gt; personal stand point, that is &quot;just the way things are&quot; in the alternate
&gt; reality in which the stories take place. Getting upset over what is, in
&gt; effect, the &quot;natural order&quot; of things in that universe makes no sense.
&gt; Besides, in all of the multiverse who is to say there ins't a world exact=
ly
&gt; like this somewhere.
&gt;
&gt; I've seen many people (dragonkin and otherwise) sing the praises of the P=
it
&gt; Dragon trilogy. This series is much less offensive because here at least
&gt; the dragons are trained to fight in defense of their country like the hum=
an
&gt; soldiers who fight and die beside them instead of fighting to the death i=
n a
&gt; game for the bloodthirsty entertainment of the masses.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt;
&gt; ~J'Karrah
&gt;
&gt; The EbonDragon's Lair: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/</a>
&gt; Dragon Sculptures: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html</a>
&gt; The Store Front: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html</a>
&gt;=20
&gt;=20
&gt; &quot;Imagination Soars on Dragon Wings,&quot; J'Karrah EbonDragon

Report this message

#6: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-24 18:06:30 by jkarrah

&quot;Jibriel&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jibriel&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">jibriel&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1151151298.878539.258990&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1151151298.878539.258990&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
what

sir you are absolutely off your peanut
*****
J'Karrah: That's Madam, if you please. Never assume gender in the
Dominance. You're likely to guess wrong more often than not :)


*****
The books themselves spend all kinds of time building the dragons as
characters in and of themselves, from the simple (but adorable) Volly
to the ruminations on slavery Temeraire is so fond of.
*****

J'Karrah: Never said they didn't. In the Pern books many of the Dragons
are also built as characters in their own right Ramoth specicifically in the
first book, Canath in the second and definately Ruth in the third. To say
they weren't characters in their own right is doing them a disservice.

This latest series of books are much the same. Yes, Temeraire, Lily,
Maximus, and Volly et al. are characters in their own right. However, that
doesn't chage the way the dragons are viewed and used by the common society
in the books. Also, *you* are the one who stressed the flying weapons
platform image of the dragons in this series AND said you didn't find the
second two books as &quot;enjoyable&quot; as the first implying that all of the social
interactions between dragons and the Chinese culture wasn't interesting
enough to hold your attention. Pulling that up NOW to use as &quot;ammunition&quot;
against my post seems a little weak.

Besides, you missed the whole point of my post: People who don't like the
Pern books because of the way dragons are viewed, probably won't like these
for the same reason.


--
~J'Karrah

The EbonDragon's Lair: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/</a>
Dragon Sculptures: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html</a>
The Store Front: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html</a>


&quot;Imagination Soars on Dragon Wings,&quot; J'Karrah EbonDragon

Report this message

#7: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-25 02:04:37 by Draco18s

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:Q7qdnZXMhu2n5gHZnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d&#64;comcast.com" target="_blank">Q7qdnZXMhu2n5gHZnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d&#64;comcast.com</a>&gt;, <a href="mailto:jkarrah&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">jkarrah&#64;yahoo.com</a>
says...

&gt;I've seen many people (dragonkin and otherwise) sing the praises of the Pit
&gt;Dragon trilogy. This series is much less offensive because here at least
&gt;the dragons are trained to fight in defense of their country like the human
&gt;soldiers who fight and die beside them instead of fighting to the death in a
&gt;game for the bloodthirsty entertainment of the masses.

That is a good point, J'Karrah. The Pit Dragon trillogy is rather ghastly in
it's portrayal of how dragons ARE in the society, yet, oddly, I still enjoy the
way they ARE in the books (and I suspect, so does everyone else).

It's not that we like them as an animal for sport, but rather the actuality of
the dragon's existence as seen in the second two books. Even if we don't like
their position in the world, we rejoice because the author has made them
CHARACTERS and not objects. Characters with emotions, feelings, and opinions--
even if only a very few can see that (and becoming one of the few does require
the death of a dragon, so while anyone CAN become one of the few, it's not like
anyone's going to advocate a line to become one).

Same thing with Pern: they may be giant beasts of burden, but they DO have
their own thoughts and minds--even if they never speak up against their own
existence (meaning trying to rise above being a verutable pack animal). Though
I suppose there's a little bit of &quot;there's no point in 'rising up'&quot; to it,
though in theory they are already 'above' most of the humans (and after all,
what would they do if 'set free'?)

Report this message

#8: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-25 19:56:28 by jkarrah

&quot;Draco18s&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:draco18s2_DOES_NOT&#64;LIKE_SPAM_hotmail.com" target="_blank">draco18s2_DOES_NOT&#64;LIKE_SPAM_hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:MPG.1f079d1dfb47335f9896a4&#64;news.teranews.com..." target="_blank">MPG.1f079d1dfb47335f9896a4&#64;news.teranews.com...</a>

&gt; Same thing with Pern: they may be giant beasts of burden, but they DO have
&gt; their own thoughts and minds--even if they never speak up against their
&gt; own
&gt; existence (meaning trying to rise above being a verutable pack animal).
&gt; Though
&gt; I suppose there's a little bit of &quot;there's no point in 'rising up'&quot; to it,
&gt; though in theory they are already 'above' most of the humans (and after
&gt; all,
&gt; what would they do if 'set free'?)

The thing about the Pernese dragons is their views on fighting thread and
impressing with a human aren't much different, in the main, than the natural
inclinations of the firelizards. As explained in Dragonsdawn humans didn't
realize firelizards would or could bond with humans *after* until it
happened, and it seeing the way the firelizards reacted to thread *on their
own* by attacking it with firebreath that gave the colonial geneticists the
idea of breeding a much larger version and &quot;tweaking&quot; the ability to bond
with a human.

The idea of dragon as pack animal is much less a reality in the Pern books
as it is in the Temeriare series. In the Pern books, the dragons rarely
carry more than just their riders and firestone sacks if fighting thread,
while the dragons in the Temeraire books routinely carry not only their
&quot;captain&quot; but a crew of 20 or more, plus a full cargo of weapons and
supplies strapped to their bellies in a net.

In the Pern books dragons can be injured or killed fighting defending the
planet from the dangers of thread but their riders do everything they can to
limit the risk to the dragons. Cases of dragon fighting dragon are
extremely rare (only one incident I am familiar with in the series in
Dragonquest) and is something that the dragonriders find instinctively
abhorrent.

In the Temeraire books the dragons are not only expected to fight one
another, but are specifically trained in the best tactics by which to do so.
It is the intentional, direct actions of humans that have the dragons acting
as pack animals as well as fighting and killing other dragons. What is seen
in Throne of Jade (second book) and Blackpowder Wars (third book) is that
left to their own devices the dragons of that universe are not *naturally*
disposed to fight one another without provocation. However, in Throne of
Jade you also see how the dragons are ill used as living taxies carrying
humans hither and yon to the point of open sores caused by chaffing
harnesses and if they can't afford to pay for food, they don't eat. Other
than the Celestials and Imperials who are pampered and well cared for, the
&quot;peasant class&quot; of dragons of China are shown no more regard than the
peasant class of humans.

I've read both series and really there is very little common ground on which
they can be compared since the worlds in which they take place are so
radically different. About the only thing the two series have in common is
that it is the dragons who chose which human to bond with. But in making a
side by side comparison I would have to say that the Pernese dragons are in
the better situation... strictly personal opinion of course.


--
~J'Karrah

The EbonDragon's Lair: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/</a>
Dragon Sculptures: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html</a>
The Store Front: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html</a>


&quot;Imagination Soars on Dragon Wings,&quot; J'Karrah EbonDragon

Report this message

#9: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-26 07:56:59 by jibriel

I use sir for pretty much everyone everywhere. It is a thing I do.

NOW. I did not misunderstand your post, but perhaps I stated my
position poorly. Alors:

1. Pern dragons are dull and uninteresting. The only personalities
they have are reflections of their riders.

2. This is not the case with Novik dragons.

3. I believed the initial complaint to be &quot;Pern dragons are dull and
uninteresting,&quot; not &quot;I have a problem with how the human societies
interact with dragons.&quot;

D'accord?
D'accord.

Second, the reason I preferred HMD over ToJ/BPW is not because there
was more fighting in HMD. Quite the opposite. How to state this? I
am a currently deployed soldier in the us army, with about 7 months
left to go before I go home. I have been shot at a couple times and it
was not very fun. I did not like reading the fight scenes in any of
the books. I liked the scenes where Laurence and Tem are best buds,
flying around and reading together into the night, for reasons of
simple escapism. I am not living in a world of shit by any means, but
I still preferred being with them than where I'm at.

ALSO. Calling the Chinese dragons &quot;ill used&quot; is weird. They are just
slotted into the caste-system with the humans, so if they're ill-used
then so are their bipedal friends. That said, perhaps you are a
sincere communist and feel that both dragons and Chinese were ill-used.
That is a silly position to hold, but consistent.

Report this message

#10: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-26 08:27:27 by jkarrah

&quot;Jibriel&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jibriel&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">jibriel&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1151301419.292538.134090&#64;i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1151301419.292538.134090&#64;i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;I use sir for pretty much everyone everywhere. It is a thing I do.
&gt;
&gt; NOW. I did not misunderstand your post, but perhaps I stated my
&gt; position poorly. Alors:
&gt;
&gt; 1. Pern dragons are dull and uninteresting. The only personalities
&gt; they have are reflections of their riders.

That's a matter of personal opinion. You are entitled to yours as I am
entitled to mine... without the rude comment of being told &quot;you are off your
bean&quot; If you recall in my first comment about this book I also stated that
I didn't like the way the British government treated *their* dragons either.


&gt; ALSO. Calling the Chinese dragons &quot;ill used&quot; is weird. They are just
&gt; slotted into the caste-system with the humans, so if they're ill-used
&gt; then so are their bipedal friends. That said, perhaps you are a
&gt; sincere communist and feel that both dragons and Chinese were ill-used.
&gt; That is a silly position to hold, but consistent.

Being &quot;communist&quot; or not has nothing to do with it... and as a veteran of
both the Navy, Desert Storm, and being wife to a 30 year Coast Guard veteran
who was a member of the first federal response units in New York after the
9-11 attacks I highly resent the implication.


To say the &quot;peasant class&quot; of both dragon and humans of Imperial China and
its caste system were ill used does not require one to be a communist. It
merely requires one to be sympathetic to and concerned about the welfare of
the disadvantaged.

But perhaps that is something beyond your comprehension since you apparently
are incapable of having a discussion about a work of fiction without
resorting to snide remarks and insults. And while I commend you on *your*
military service and wish you a safe and speedy return home, it doesn't
excuse those snide remarks and insults. A soldier should have more honor
than to stoop to such petty tactics.

Report this message

#11: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-26 08:42:32 by jibriel

Good lord, relax.

Were I to sincerely desire to insult you, I -- well, first, I'd have to
know you (which I do not). Second I would use perhaps slightly more
cutting remarks than &quot;off your peanut&quot; and, of all things, &quot;sincere
communist&quot;. The second especially is hard to consider an insult. I
think that communism is based upon faulty premises but I've read my
Marx and it has a certain appeal. I view sincere communists with the
same sort of tolerant envy with which I view sincere libertarians. Lo,
in my youth, I was myself one of the two.

I have gone at too much length. The grist of it is as follows: &quot;they
was jokes, suh.&quot;

Now, hopefully having disposed of comments on the textual coriander
with which my internet chatting is served, we may progress.

Of course we are all entitled to whatever opinions we have. However,
some opinions are better than others. That is secondary, however, to
the fact that the fun is in arguing about them.

For example: the ill-use thing. Let's refer to it by iu. My
reasoning:

1. In saying that the dragons were iu, the poster felt that ideally
dragons should never be treated thus.

Leading to two branches:
1. Dragons are special, so it's ok for humans to be so used, or

2. Neither humans nor dragons should be so used

I dismissed branch 1 as outright silly, and branch 2 was the one I took
to be that of a sincere communist. Note that &quot;iu&quot; doesn't really
denote mere sympathy, but rather a *conviction* that such things should
never happen. Since it is simply the case that they *will* happen in a
society with any level of capitalism (ie: all of them), WELL.

I'll reword that just for giggles. If someone thinks no one should
ever be poor, then communism seems like a good ideological fit for
them.

Perhaps you disagree with me that the iu designation means someone
thinks it should never happen, but I think you'd be on shaky ground.

I suppose the remark could be construed as &quot;no one should ever have to
do manual labor,&quot; but I'd like to give the poster more credit than
that.


J'Karrah EbonDragon wrote:
&gt; &quot;Jibriel&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jibriel&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">jibriel&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1151301419.292538.134090&#64;i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1151301419.292538.134090&#64;i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;I use sir for pretty much everyone everywhere. It is a thing I do.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; NOW. I did not misunderstand your post, but perhaps I stated my
&gt; &gt; position poorly. Alors:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; 1. Pern dragons are dull and uninteresting. The only personalities
&gt; &gt; they have are reflections of their riders.
&gt;
&gt; That's a matter of personal opinion. You are entitled to yours as I am
&gt; entitled to mine... without the rude comment of being told &quot;you are off your
&gt; bean&quot; If you recall in my first comment about this book I also stated that
&gt; I didn't like the way the British government treated *their* dragons either.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; ALSO. Calling the Chinese dragons &quot;ill used&quot; is weird. They are just
&gt; &gt; slotted into the caste-system with the humans, so if they're ill-used
&gt; &gt; then so are their bipedal friends. That said, perhaps you are a
&gt; &gt; sincere communist and feel that both dragons and Chinese were ill-used.
&gt; &gt; That is a silly position to hold, but consistent.
&gt;
&gt; Being &quot;communist&quot; or not has nothing to do with it... and as a veteran of
&gt; both the Navy, Desert Storm, and being wife to a 30 year Coast Guard veteran
&gt; who was a member of the first federal response units in New York after the
&gt; 9-11 attacks I highly resent the implication.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; To say the &quot;peasant class&quot; of both dragon and humans of Imperial China and
&gt; its caste system were ill used does not require one to be a communist. It
&gt; merely requires one to be sympathetic to and concerned about the welfare of
&gt; the disadvantaged.
&gt;
&gt; But perhaps that is something beyond your comprehension since you apparently
&gt; are incapable of having a discussion about a work of fiction without
&gt; resorting to snide remarks and insults. And while I commend you on *your*
&gt; military service and wish you a safe and speedy return home, it doesn't
&gt; excuse those snide remarks and insults. A soldier should have more honor
&gt; than to stoop to such petty tactics.

Report this message

#12: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-26 17:32:57 by jkarrah

&quot;Jibriel&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jibriel&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">jibriel&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1151306330.021493.175060&#64;i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1151306330.021493.175060&#64;i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; I suppose the remark could be construed as &quot;no one should ever have to
&gt; do manual labor,&quot; but I'd like to give the poster more credit than
&gt; that.

No, the remark should be construed to mean no one should be forced to do
manual labor to the point of sever injury. An injured worker in an unhappy
worker. An unhappy worker is an inefficient worker. It's a fact of good
business and labor management. Workers who feel and are treated as valuable
assets, as opposed to mere &quot;tools&quot; to be worked to failure then discarded,
perform better and more effectively benefiting themselves, their employers,
and their community.

That's not communism, it's not capitalism. It's common sense.


--
~J'Karrah

The EbonDragon's Lair: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/</a>
Dragon Sculptures: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html</a>
The Store Front: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html</a>


&quot;Imagination Soars on Dragon Wings,&quot; J'Karrah EbonDragon

Report this message

#13: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-06-26 19:37:17 by jibriel

I went back and looked at it again since at this point I was working
off memories of a skimmed post some days old:

&quot;However, in Throne of
Jade you also see how the dragons are ill used as living taxies
carrying
humans hither and yon to the point of open sores caused by chaffing
harnesses and if they can't afford to pay for food, they don't eat&quot;

As a matter of fact, I had been thinking someone else entirely made
that remark.

Anyways. Now that you've clarified what you were getting at, it's uh.
Clearer.
That said, I hope you can see where the alternate interpretation is
easy to arrive at.

J'Karrah EbonDragon wrote:
&gt; &quot;Jibriel&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jibriel&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">jibriel&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1151306330.021493.175060&#64;i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1151306330.021493.175060&#64;i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; I suppose the remark could be construed as &quot;no one should ever have to
&gt; &gt; do manual labor,&quot; but I'd like to give the poster more credit than
&gt; &gt; that.
&gt;
&gt; No, the remark should be construed to mean no one should be forced to do
&gt; manual labor to the point of sever injury. An injured worker in an unhappy
&gt; worker. An unhappy worker is an inefficient worker. It's a fact of good
&gt; business and labor management. Workers who feel and are treated as valuable
&gt; assets, as opposed to mere &quot;tools&quot; to be worked to failure then discarded,
&gt; perform better and more effectively benefiting themselves, their employers,
&gt; and their community.
&gt;
&gt; That's not communism, it's not capitalism. It's common sense.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; ~J'Karrah
&gt;
&gt; The EbonDragon's Lair: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/</a>
&gt; Dragon Sculptures: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Sculptures.html</a>
&gt; The Store Front: <a href="http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html" target="_blank">http://ebon-dragon.com/Store.html</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Imagination Soars on Dragon Wings,&quot; J'Karrah EbonDragon

Report this message

#14: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-07-06 08:14:55 by Pyros Rutilicus

At Sun, 18 Jun 2006 09:42:18 GMT, <a href="mailto:jibriel&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">jibriel&#64;gmail.com</a> hissed:

&lt;chomp&gt;
&gt; SO when I saw a book called &quot;Her
&gt; Majesty's Dragon&quot; (or apparently titled &quot;Temeraire&quot; in the UK)
&gt; published by Del Rey (instead of Baen or Tor, for example) I hesitated
&gt; maybe a whole 3 or 4 seconds before buying it. Four hours later I'd
&gt; finished it. Read it a couple times since then.

Amusingly enough, a couple of months ago I visited a friend of mine, who
asked me if I'd ever heard of Naomi Novik. I said that I hadn't, and he
gave me &quot;His Majesty's Dragon,&quot; and said &quot;Here, you'll like this.&quot; He
was right. I even thought &quot;I should post about this to AFD&quot;--but I
wanted to finish the rest of the series first, and I'm only halfway
through Throne of Jade right now.

So, in short, I second the recommendation.

--
Pyros Rutilicus
---------------
DC2.Dw~ Gm L40f75w W- T- Sks,wl Cre-,eau Bfl A Fr++ Nm R+ Ac++ J+ Tc++ E-
Proud Owner of One Ponder Point
Scales protect many times better than flesh, but ironically, as long as
I wear this flesh I am safe, whereas if I were to show my true self I
would be vulnerable...
&quot;Thoughts of [an annoying human] still make my teeth itch.&quot;
--D. J. Heinrich, The Dragon's Tomb

Report this message

#15: Re: New author what has some dragons in her stuff

Posted on 2006-07-06 08:32:06 by Pyros Rutilicus

At Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:37:39 GMT, &quot;J'Karrah EbonDragon&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:jkarrah&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">jkarrah&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; hissed:

&lt;chomp&gt;
&gt;&gt; Lol. I can´t read Mccaffrey books, I tried reading two of them, but
&gt;&gt; it simply focus more on what humand do and treat dragons as horses

I can't read McCaffrey books, because I...uh...tried reading one, and
kept falling asleep halfway through. That was a while ago, though, so
maybe I'll try again.

&gt; Well, if you don't like the Pern books you defiantly won't like these
&gt; since the dragons are treated as nothing more than weapons of war
&gt; trained to fight and kill one another.
&gt;
&gt; I've just finished all three books and I have to say I did enjoy them.
&gt; While not really comfortable with the way the dragons were used from a
&gt; personal stand point, that is &quot;just the way things are&quot; in the
&gt; alternate reality in which the stories take place. Getting upset over
&gt; what is, in effect, the &quot;natural order&quot; of things in that universe
&gt; makes no sense. Besides, in all of the multiverse who is to say there
&gt; ins't a world exactly like this somewhere.

Well, I can understand not liking it even if that's &quot;just the way things
are&quot; in a particular universe. For example, I don't think I'd like a
fictional universe in which the &quot;natural order of things&quot; involves
dragons as simple mindless animals.

Personally though, I'm still able to enjoy the Temeraire books (as well
as the Bazil Broketail series, which has a similar &quot;dragons bred and
trained for military service&quot; bent), mainly because in each of them the
dragons are fully-drawn characters, are intelligent, have close
friendships with the human protagonists, and generally accept their
position. In both series, the question is also brought up explicitly--
I'm just at the point in Throne of Jade where Temeraire is starting to
compare his position to that of a slave (don't ruin anything for me!),
and in Rowley's books Bazil debates with wild dragons about his level of
freedom. So it's clear that the characters are able to consider the
question, which is quite important to me.

--
Pyros Rutilicus
---------------
DC2.Dw~ Gm L40f75w W- T- Sks,wl Cre-,eau Bfl A Fr++ Nm R+ Ac++ J+ Tc++ E-
Proud Owner of One Ponder Point
Scales protect many times better than flesh, but ironically, as long as
I wear this flesh I am safe, whereas if I were to show my true self I
would be vulnerable...
&quot;Thoughts of [an annoying human] still make my teeth itch.&quot;
--D. J. Heinrich, The Dragon's Tomb

Report this message