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#1: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-20 20:07:21 by frodo

Was Theoden ever told about the ring and Frodo's quest? Eomer didn't find
out until after the battle of Pelenor Fields, after Theoden was dead.

Did I miss it? Was it perhaps at Isengard when G+T confered w/ Treebeard
(which we weren't told too much about).

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#2: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-21 12:46:37 by Jim Harker

<a href="mailto:frodo&#64;theshire.net" target="_blank">frodo&#64;theshire.net</a> wrote:
&gt; Was Theoden ever told about the ring and Frodo's quest? Eomer didn't find
&gt; out until after the battle of Pelenor Fields, after Theoden was dead.
&gt;
&gt; Did I miss it? Was it perhaps at Isengard when G+T confered w/ Treebeard
&gt; (which we weren't told too much about).
&gt;
We aren't told for sure. In the chapter 'The King of the Golden Hall'
Gandalf tells Theoden 'The enemy is strong beyond our reckoning, yet we
have a hope at which he has not guessed.' Gandalf then speaks to the
King and the book says no one but Theoden heard his words. Then the two
of theem stand and look into thew east. Gandalf says 'Verily that way
lies our hope, where sits our greatest fear....'
Whether Gandalf spelled it all out to Theoden, or just gave him hints we
are never told.

Jim

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#3: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-21 19:28:54 by OMeallyMD

Jim Harker wrote:

&gt; We aren't told for sure. In the chapter 'The King of the Golden Hall'
&gt; Gandalf tells Theoden 'The enemy is strong beyond our reckoning, yet
&gt; we have a hope at which he has not guessed.' Gandalf then speaks to
&gt; the King and the book says no one but Theoden heard his words. Then
&gt; the two of theem stand and look into thew east. Gandalf says 'Verily
&gt; that way lies our hope, where sits our greatest fear....'
&gt; Whether Gandalf spelled it all out to Theoden, or just gave him hints
&gt; we are never told.

I think it was more than hints, but not the full story either. Clearly,
Gandalf told Theoden enough to give him hope, bringing him out of his
Wormtongue-induced haze. But later in the same chapter, Gandalf speaks
to Theoden of &quot;... a secret hope, of which even to you, lord, I cannot
yet speak openly.&quot; (referring to Frodo and the quest to destroy the
Ring).

What I'd like to know is why *wouldn't* Gandalf give full disclosure to
a king of an allied nation who figured heavily in the councels of the
War?
--
Bill

&quot;Wise fool&quot;
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

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#4: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-21 20:28:23 by EvilBill

&quot;Bill O'Meally&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com" target="_blank">OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:qr1cg.3458$<a href="mailto:3q2.583&#64;tornado.rdc-" target="_blank">3q2.583&#64;tornado.rdc-</a>
&gt;
&gt; I think it was more than hints, but not the full story either. Clearly,
&gt; Gandalf told Theoden enough to give him hope, bringing him out of his
&gt; Wormtongue-induced haze. But later in the same chapter, Gandalf speaks to
&gt; Theoden of &quot;... a secret hope, of which even to you, lord, I cannot yet
&gt; speak openly.&quot; (referring to Frodo and the quest to destroy the Ring).
&gt;
&gt; What I'd like to know is why *wouldn't* Gandalf give full disclosure to a
&gt; king of an allied nation who figured heavily in the councels of the War?


Probably in case, as was said elsewhere, &quot;Wormtongues may be found in houses
other than Theoden's&quot;. Saruman could have had spies everywhere in Rohan.

--
Jack of Hearts in The Eeeeevil Cabal (TINC...)
<a href="http://www.evilbill.org.uk" target="_blank">http://www.evilbill.org.uk</a> - Diablo, Quake &amp; Tomb Raider
There is no spoon.

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#5: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-21 20:48:49 by OMeallyMD

EvilBill wrote:
&gt; &quot;Bill O'Meally&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com" target="_blank">OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:qr1cg.3458$<a href="mailto:3q2.583&#64;tornado.rdc-" target="_blank">3q2.583&#64;tornado.rdc-</a>

&gt;&gt; What I'd like to know is why *wouldn't* Gandalf give full disclosure
&gt;&gt; to a king of an allied nation who figured heavily in the councels of
&gt;&gt; the War?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Probably in case, as was said elsewhere, &quot;Wormtongues may be found in
&gt; houses other than Theoden's&quot;. Saruman could have had spies everywhere
&gt; in Rohan.

Fine. But then, why not disclose the information to Theoden in private?
One would think that as a head of state, and a commander of an army, it
would be at least as important for him to have information that was
known even to Merry and Pippin!
--
Bill

&quot;Wise fool&quot;
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

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#6: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-21 20:57:24 by Troels Forchhammer

In message &lt;news:qr1cg.3458$<a href="mailto:3q2.583&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com" target="_blank">3q2.583&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com</a>&gt;
&quot;Bill O'Meally&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com" target="_blank">OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com</a>&gt; enriched us with:
&gt;
&gt; Jim Harker wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; <a href="mailto:frodo&#64;theshire.net" target="_blank">frodo&#64;theshire.net</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;

&lt;reinstating full conversation and crossposting to RABT&gt;

&gt;&gt;&gt; Was Theoden ever told about the ring and Frodo's quest? Eomer
&gt;&gt;&gt; didn't find out until after the battle of Pelenor Fields, after
&gt;&gt;&gt; Theoden was dead.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Did I miss it? Was it perhaps at Isengard when G+T confered w/
&gt;&gt;&gt; Treebeard (which we weren't told too much about).
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; We aren't told for sure. In the chapter 'The King of the Golden
&gt;&gt; Hall' Gandalf tells Theoden 'The enemy is strong beyond our
&gt;&gt; reckoning, yet we have a hope at which he has not guessed.'
&gt;&gt; Gandalf then speaks to the King and the book says no one but
&gt;&gt; Theoden heard his words. Then the two of theem stand and look
&gt;&gt; into thew east. Gandalf says 'Verily that way lies our hope,
&gt;&gt; where sits our greatest fear....' Whether Gandalf spelled it all
&gt;&gt; out to Theoden, or just gave him hints we are never told.
&gt;
&gt; I think it was more than hints, but not the full story either.
&gt; Clearly, Gandalf told Theoden enough to give him hope, bringing
&gt; him out of his Wormtongue-induced haze. But later in the same
&gt; chapter, Gandalf speaks to Theoden of &quot;... a secret hope, of which
&gt; even to you, lord, I cannot yet speak openly.&quot; (referring to Frodo
&gt; and the quest to destroy the Ring).
&gt;
&gt; What I'd like to know is why *wouldn't* Gandalf give full
&gt; disclosure to a king of an allied nation who figured heavily in
&gt; the councels of the War?

I've always assumed that Gandalf did tell about the Ring and Frodo's
quest back at Meduseld, and that the later statement refers to
speaking about it loudly. I suppose that neither Éomer nor Éowyn were
to be told yet -- and there might have been other servants. I agree
that the 'even to you, lord' does seem to put a slightly different
cast to it that I haven't really considered earlier.

Anyway, a whispered monologue that can be heard by one man only can
hardly be called 'speaking openly' ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is &lt;t.forch(a)email.dk&gt;

Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are
subtle and quick to anger.
- Gildor Inglorion, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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#7: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-22 15:01:33 by OMeallyMD

Troels Forchhammer wrote:

&gt; Anyway, a whispered monologue that can be heard by one man only can
&gt; hardly be called 'speaking openly' ;-)

To &quot;speak openly&quot; in this context, IMO, means to &quot;speak frankly&quot;. I
don't think Gandalf meant that he was going to proclaim the plan for the
Ring to all within earshot. :-)
--
Bill

&quot;Wise fool&quot;
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

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#8: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-22 20:46:19 by Troels Forchhammer

In message &lt;news:NCicg.5303$<a href="mailto:3q2.3044&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com" target="_blank">3q2.3044&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com</a>&gt;
&quot;Bill O'Meally&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com" target="_blank">OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com</a>&gt; enriched us with:
&gt;
&gt; Troels Forchhammer wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Anyway, a whispered monologue that can be heard by one man only
&gt;&gt; can hardly be called 'speaking openly' ;-)
&gt;
&gt; To &quot;speak openly&quot; in this context, IMO, means to &quot;speak frankly&quot;.

OK. As is obvious, I read it as 'speak of it frankly /and/ in the
open', and, in the context, as referring to those other ears that are
always (almost) around a king. The interpretation I have been
applying, however, is in accordance with the Danish usage, which
would require the speech to be both frank and 'for all to hear';
removing one would disqualify it from being spoken 'openly' (Ã¥bent)
in Danish. So of course I might be missing a difference in the
English connotation.

&gt; I don't think Gandalf meant that he was going to proclaim the plan
&gt; for the Ring to all within earshot. :-)

How, then, do we make sense of Gandalf's earlier comemnt?

Quickly now Gandalf spoke. His voice was low and
secret, and none save the king heard what he said[*].
But ever as he spoke the light shone brighter in
Théoden's eye, and at the last he rose from his seat
to his full height, and Gandalf beside him, and together
they looked out from the high place towards the East.
'Verily,' said Gandalf, now in a loud voice, keen and
clear, 'that way lies our hope, where sits our greatest
fear. [...]'

[*] This would, as I understood the later statement, not count as
speaking openly -- even if explaining the plan to destroy the One.

If the hope Gandalf speaks of, and which, from the context, I think
he must have explained to Théoden, isn't Frodo's mission, then what?
How do we make sense of this?

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is &lt;t.forch(a)email.dk&gt;

If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you
haven't understood it yet.
- Niels Bohr (1885-1962)

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#9: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-22 21:40:31 by Christopher Kreuzer

Troels Forchhammer &lt;<a href="mailto:Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid" target="_blank">Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid</a>&gt; wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; If the hope Gandalf speaks of, and which, from the context, I think
&gt; he must have explained to Théoden, isn't Frodo's mission, then what?
&gt; How do we make sense of this?

Tolkien being overly theatrical with Gandalf's big scene here? :-)

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#10: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-22 22:18:30 by Troels Forchhammer

In message &lt;news:Psocg.73754$<a href="mailto:wl.14549&#64;text.news.blueyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">wl.14549&#64;text.news.blueyonder.co.uk</a>&gt;
&quot;Christopher Kreuzer&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:spamgard&#64;blueyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">spamgard&#64;blueyonder.co.uk</a>&gt; enriched us with:
&gt;
&gt; Troels Forchhammer &lt;<a href="mailto:Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid" target="_blank">Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; If the hope Gandalf speaks of,
[...]
&gt;&gt; isn't Frodo's mission, then what?
&gt;&gt; How do we make sense of this?
&gt;
&gt; Tolkien being overly theatrical with Gandalf's big scene here? :-)

Wouldn't &quot;overly&quot; be slightly sacrilegious? ;-)

I'd go for simply 'very theatrical' :-D

But of course you could be right -- that the 'sense' is to be found
only in the dramatic effect.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is &lt;t.forch(a)email.dk&gt;

The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the
same level of thinking with which we created them.
- Albert Einstein

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#11: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-23 01:21:37 by Christopher Kreuzer

Troels Forchhammer &lt;<a href="mailto:Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid" target="_blank">Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid</a>&gt; wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

Just a quick comment here:

&gt; How, then, do we make sense of Gandalf's earlier comemnt?
&gt;
&gt; Quickly now Gandalf spoke. His voice was low and
&gt; secret, and none save the king heard what he said[*].
&gt; But ever as he spoke the light shone brighter in
&gt; Théoden's eye...

Eye? I checked and it is indeed the singular. Wouldn't it be more
common, maybe even more correct, to say that the light shone brighter in
his eyes (plural)?

&gt; If the hope Gandalf speaks of, and which, from the context, I think
&gt; he must have explained to Théoden, isn't Frodo's mission, then what?
&gt; How do we make sense of this?

The next few paragraphs, where everyone else looks east, and the
narrator talks about Frodo, make it clear that this is indeed what we
are meant to think.

Incidentially, at the end of the chapter I found a bit giving Gandalf
more titles and noun types, as Theoden names him:

&quot;guest&quot;
&quot;Gandalf Greyhame&quot;
&quot;wisest of counsellors&quot;
&quot;most welcome of wanderers&quot;
&quot;a lord of the Mark&quot;
&quot;a chieftain of the Eorlingas&quot;

I also find the comment &quot;while our kin shall last&quot; rather interesting.
It recalls to me other similar phrase, such as Gandalf's &quot;while the
thrones of the Valar endure&quot; (at Aragorn's coronation), and Aragorn's
own &quot;unto the ending of the world&quot; (again, at the coronation), and
Treebeard's later &quot;not while your kingdoms last you mean&quot; (Many
Partings).

There seems to be some formulaic device being used here to put things in
the context of a longer time period. The only real-world example I can
think of at the moment is &quot;world without end&quot; in some of the Christian
prayer formulations, but I am sure there are more standard examples in
ceremonial language and diplomatic treaties. Can anyone think of any?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

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#12: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-23 15:01:29 by nfw

Christopher Kreuzer a écrit :
&gt; Troels Forchhammer &lt;<a href="mailto:Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid" target="_blank">Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; Quickly now Gandalf spoke. His voice was low and
&gt;&gt; secret, and none save the king heard what he said[*].
&gt;&gt; But ever as he spoke the light shone brighter in
&gt;&gt; Théoden's eye...
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Eye? I checked and it is indeed the singular. Wouldn't it be more
&gt; common, maybe even more correct, to say that the light shone brighter in
&gt; his eyes (plural)?

I prefer it singular. Anyway, could one see both eyes at once?

&gt; I also find the comment &quot;while our kin shall last&quot; rather interesting.
&gt; It recalls to me other similar phrase, such as Gandalf's &quot;while the
&gt; thrones of the Valar endure&quot; (at Aragorn's coronation), and Aragorn's
&gt; own &quot;unto the ending of the world&quot; (again, at the coronation), and
&gt; Treebeard's later &quot;not while your kingdoms last you mean&quot; (Many
&gt; Partings).
&gt;
&gt; There seems to be some formulaic device being used here to put things in
&gt; the context of a longer time period. The only real-world example I can
&gt; think of at the moment is &quot;world without end&quot; in some of the Christian
&gt; prayer formulations, but I am sure there are more standard examples in
&gt; ceremonial language and diplomatic treaties. Can anyone think of any?

We live in a short term world, and it shall be thus as long as money
rules (new one! ;-) ).

--
nfw - adresse valide sur grandefaux.com
&gt; Wasn't Ungoliant committed to creating a world-wide web?
sounds like the sort of evil thing she'd do. she was probably the
first spammer, too. -- Count Menelvagor in RABT--

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#13: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-23 15:15:50 by Derek Broughton

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

&gt; Troels Forchhammer &lt;<a href="mailto:Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid" target="_blank">Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Just a quick comment here:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; How, then, do we make sense of Gandalf's earlier comemnt?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Quickly now Gandalf spoke. His voice was low and
&gt;&gt; secret, and none save the king heard what he said[*].
&gt;&gt; But ever as he spoke the light shone brighter in
&gt;&gt; Théoden's eye...
&gt;
&gt; Eye? I checked and it is indeed the singular. Wouldn't it be more
&gt; common, maybe even more correct, to say that the light shone brighter in
&gt; his eyes (plural)?

More common, yes, but Tolkien was anything but common :-)

I think it might even be more common in poetry to use the singular. &quot;With
half a smile, and twinkle of the eye...&quot; (perhaps not commonly known to
European readers, but should be immediately familiar to Americans - though
they may not call it poetry).
--
derek

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#14: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-23 19:17:07 by JimboCat

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

&gt;I also find the comment &quot;while our kin shall last&quot; rather interesting.
&gt;It recalls to me other similar phrase, such as Gandalf's &quot;while the
&gt;thrones of the Valar endure&quot; (at Aragorn's coronation), and Aragorn's
&gt;own &quot;unto the ending of the world&quot; (again, at the coronation), and
&gt;Treebeard's later &quot;not while your kingdoms last you mean&quot; (Many
&gt;Partings).
&gt;
&gt;There seems to be some formulaic device being used here to put things in
&gt;the context of a longer time period. The only real-world example I can
&gt;think of at the moment is &quot;world without end&quot; in some of the Christian
&gt;prayer formulations, but I am sure there are more standard examples in
&gt;ceremonial language and diplomatic treaties. Can anyone think of any?

&quot;as long as the grass grows and the rivers run&quot; is a common phrase in
treaties between the US government and Indian tribes and other
groupings. Didn't make any difference, though: the US still abrogated
pretty much any treaty any time they wanted to.

My favorite in LotR has always been Pippin's oath to Gondor &quot;until my
Lord release me, or death take me, or the world end&quot;. That is Cool.

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
&quot;Write a wise saying and your name will live forever&quot;
--Anonymous

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#15: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-23 19:56:34 by Derek Broughton

JimboCat wrote:

&gt; My favorite in LotR has always been Pippin's oath to Gondor &quot;until my
&gt; Lord release me, or death take me, or the world end&quot;. That is Cool.

Of course, Denethor was set on a course to try to make all three concurrent.
--
derek

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#16: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-23 21:02:14 by Christopher Kreuzer

JimboCat &lt;<a href="mailto:103134.3516&#64;compuserve.com" target="_blank">103134.3516&#64;compuserve.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I also find the comment &quot;while our kin shall last&quot; rather
&gt;&gt; interesting. It recalls to me other similar phrase, such as
&gt;&gt; Gandalf's &quot;while the thrones of the Valar endure&quot; (at Aragorn's
&gt;&gt; coronation), and Aragorn's own &quot;unto the ending of the world&quot;
&gt;&gt; (again, at the coronation), and Treebeard's later &quot;not while your
&gt;&gt; kingdoms last you mean&quot; (Many Partings).
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; There seems to be some formulaic device being used here to put
&gt;&gt; things in the context of a longer time period. The only real-world
&gt;&gt; example I can think of at the moment is &quot;world without end&quot; in some
&gt;&gt; of the Christian prayer formulations, but I am sure there are more
&gt;&gt; standard examples in ceremonial language and diplomatic treaties.
&gt;&gt; Can anyone think of any?
&gt;
&gt; &quot;as long as the grass grows and the rivers run&quot; is a common phrase in
&gt; treaties between the US government and Indian tribes and other
&gt; groupings. Didn't make any difference, though: the US still abrogated
&gt; pretty much any treaty any time they wanted to.
&gt;
&gt; My favorite in LotR has always been Pippin's oath to Gondor &quot;until my
&gt; Lord release me, or death take me, or the world end&quot;. That is Cool.

It is nice, isn't it. :-)

I've just been re-reading the bit about Cirion and Eorl in Unfinished
Tales. The bit about their oaths has similar ceremonial language. This
also reminded me of the Oath of Feanor, several versions of which are in
HoME, and probably have similar language.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

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#17: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-23 21:07:04 by Raven

&quot;JimboCat&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:103134.3516&#64;compuserve.com" target="_blank">103134.3516&#64;compuserve.com</a>&gt; skrev i en meddelelse
news:<a href="mailto:1148404627.876052.118950&#64;j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1148404627.876052.118950&#64;j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>

&gt; &quot;as long as the grass grows and the rivers run&quot; is a common phrase in
&gt; treaties between the US government and Indian tribes and other
&gt; groupings. Didn't make any difference, though: the US still abrogated
&gt; pretty much any treaty any time they wanted to.

Of course. Figures. Many places the grass was smothered and rivers
choked, remember? &gt;;-}

Marghvran.

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#18: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-24 00:24:59 by EvilBill

&quot;Derek Broughton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:news&#64;pointerstop.ca" target="_blank">news&#64;pointerstop.ca</a>&gt; wrote in message news:ivubk3-
&gt; JimboCat wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; My favorite in LotR has always been Pippin's oath to Gondor &quot;until my
&gt;&gt; Lord release me, or death take me, or the world end&quot;. That is Cool.
&gt;
&gt; Of course, Denethor was set on a course to try to make all three
&gt; concurrent.

Just goes to show how even without the Ring, Sauron can use his will to
dominate pretty much anyone via the Palantir, with the exception of Aragorn.

--
Jack of Hearts in The Eeeeevil Cabal (TINC...)
<a href="http://www.evilbill.org.uk" target="_blank">http://www.evilbill.org.uk</a> - Diablo, Quake &amp; Tomb Raider
There is no spoon.

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#19: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-24 04:50:55 by pseudonimofaqhater

nfw wrote:

&gt; We live in a short term world, and it shall be thus as long as money
&gt; rules (new one! ;-) ).

Money's reign shall never end!

&gt; nfw - adresse valide sur grandefaux.com
&gt; &gt; Wasn't Ungoliant committed to creating a world-wide web?
&gt; sounds like the sort of evil thing she'd do. she was probably the
&gt; first spammer, too. -- Count Menelvagor in RABT--

Lies.

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#20: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-26 05:26:00 by morgothscurse2002

On Tue, 23 May 2006 23:24:59 +0100, &quot;EvilBill&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:quake2lives&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">quake2lives&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;&quot;Derek Broughton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:news&#64;pointerstop.ca" target="_blank">news&#64;pointerstop.ca</a>&gt; wrote in message news:ivubk3-
&gt;&gt; JimboCat wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; My favorite in LotR has always been Pippin's oath to Gondor &quot;until my
&gt;&gt;&gt; Lord release me, or death take me, or the world end&quot;. That is Cool.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Of course, Denethor was set on a course to try to make all three
&gt;&gt; concurrent.
&gt;
&gt;Just goes to show how even without the Ring, Sauron can use his will to
&gt;dominate pretty much anyone via the Palantir, with the exception of Aragorn.

And Sauron did not have enough time to try. I have always suspected
that the fact that Sauron was distracted by the war (as well as the
fact that he was the legitimate owner of the palantir) was what
allowed Aragorn to wrest the stone from Sauron's control. I suspect
that if he had sufficient time and opportunity, Sauron could have
mastered even Aragorn. Sauron had, after all, literally tens of
thousands of years of experience in the art of manipulation.

Morgoth's Curse

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#21: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-26 05:27:53 by morgothscurse2002

On 22 May 2006 18:46:19 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
&lt;<a href="mailto:Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid" target="_blank">Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;In message &lt;news:NCicg.5303$<a href="mailto:3q2.3044&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com" target="_blank">3q2.3044&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com</a>&gt;
&gt;&quot;Bill O'Meally&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com" target="_blank">OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com</a>&gt; enriched us with:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Troels Forchhammer wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Anyway, a whispered monologue that can be heard by one man only
&gt;&gt;&gt; can hardly be called 'speaking openly' ;-)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; To &quot;speak openly&quot; in this context, IMO, means to &quot;speak frankly&quot;.
&gt;
&gt;OK. As is obvious, I read it as 'speak of it frankly /and/ in the
&gt;open', and, in the context, as referring to those other ears that are
&gt;always (almost) around a king. The interpretation I have been
&gt;applying, however, is in accordance with the Danish usage, which
&gt;would require the speech to be both frank and 'for all to hear';
&gt;removing one would disqualify it from being spoken 'openly' (Ã¥bent)
&gt;in Danish. So of course I might be missing a difference in the
&gt;English connotation.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I don't think Gandalf meant that he was going to proclaim the plan
&gt;&gt; for the Ring to all within earshot. :-)
&gt;
&gt;How, then, do we make sense of Gandalf's earlier comemnt?
&gt;
&gt; Quickly now Gandalf spoke. His voice was low and
&gt; secret, and none save the king heard what he said[*].
&gt; But ever as he spoke the light shone brighter in
&gt; Théoden's eye, and at the last he rose from his seat
&gt; to his full height, and Gandalf beside him, and together
&gt; they looked out from the high place towards the East.
&gt; 'Verily,' said Gandalf, now in a loud voice, keen and
&gt; clear, 'that way lies our hope, where sits our greatest
&gt; fear. [...]'
&gt;
&gt;[*] This would, as I understood the later statement, not count as
&gt;speaking openly -- even if explaining the plan to destroy the One.
&gt;
&gt;If the hope Gandalf speaks of, and which, from the context, I think
&gt;he must have explained to Théoden, isn't Frodo's mission, then what?
&gt;How do we make sense of this?

Perhaps Gandalf supplied just enough information to provide a measure
of hope to Theodon. At this point in time, Theodon has valid reasons
to despair: Even if the Rohirrim can defeat Saruman's armies in the
field, they must still assail and besiege Isengard in order to capture
or slay Saruman. (Neither Theodon or anybody else in Rohan except
perhaps Gandalf has any knowledge of the fact that Saruman's powers
have been steadily waning. Indeed, he is feared as much as or more
than Sauron.) Even if Theodon can prevail over Saruman, he must still
battle an enemy vastly more powerful and fearsome than Saruman. Recall
that Boromir was astounded to learn of the Ring's existence at the
Council of Elrond. Up to that moment, Boromir had no idea that Sauron
had any vulnerabilities at all. It is unlikely that Theodon was any
better informed than Boromir.

In their hasty and secret conference upon the stairs of Meduseld.
Gandalf explains that the Wise have discovered that Sauron--the master
of Saruman--has a fatal weakness which can be exploited if only they
are granted enough time. He does not provide the details for several
reasons: He simply does not have time--Saruman's armies have already
issued from Isengard and it is essential to deal with that threat
immediately. Moreover, even Elrond had believed it was necessary to
describe the entire history of the Ring so that all present at the
Council could fully appreciate the nature of the threat and of the
opportunity. Gandalf also does not fully trust Theodon. He knows
that Theodon has been under the spells of Wormtongue for several
months at least and perhaps longer. Gandalf can counter that, but the
cure will probably take some time to be effective. Last, but not
least, is the fact that Theodon already has enough on his mind.
Gandalf's resurrection must have been as great of a shock to Theodon
as it had been for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. He has also recently
lost his son, been theoretically betrayed by Eomer and just discovered
that he been deceived and manipulated for years by one of his most
trusted advisors. It is hardly the best time to deliver the full news
of the Ring. (Recall also that Gandalf refused to deliver that
information even to Denethor until Faramir returned and described his
encounter with Frodo.)

So Gandalf compromises and provides just enough information to
persuade Theodon that he need not despair and trusts him to do the
right thing. Gandalf himself said it best: &quot;we must first destroy
the threat of Saruman, while we have time.&quot;

Morgoth's Curse

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#22: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-27 02:13:52 by OMeallyMD

Morgoth's Curse wrote:

&gt; Perhaps Gandalf supplied just enough information to provide a measure
&gt; of hope to Theodon.

That's what I suggested in my reply to Jim Harker earlier in this
thread.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; In their hasty and secret conference upon the stairs of Meduseld.
&gt; Gandalf explains that the Wise have discovered that Sauron--the master
&gt; of Saruman--has a fatal weakness which can be exploited if only they
&gt; are granted enough time. He does not provide the details for several
&gt; reasons: He simply does not have time--Saruman's armies have already
&gt; issued from Isengard and it is essential to deal with that threat
&gt; immediately. Moreover, even Elrond had believed it was necessary to
&gt; describe the entire history of the Ring so that all present at the
&gt; Council could fully appreciate the nature of the threat and of the
&gt; opportunity.

And unlike Denethor, who though not exactly a lore master, still knew
enough of Gondor's history to know about Isildur's Bane, and knew
somewhat of the history of the Rings of Power, Theoden (please note the
spelling :-)) as king of the more rustic Rohirrim, would probably not
have that background to draw upon. It is doubtful that Gandalf would
have taken the time to explain the whole history of the Rings in the
short span that he had with Theoden. Rather, I think he told him just
enough to provide him with some hope.

&lt;snip other good points&gt;

&gt; So Gandalf compromises and provides just enough information to
&gt; persuade Theodon that he need not despair and trusts him to do the
&gt; right thing. Gandalf himself said it best: &quot;we must first destroy
&gt; the threat of Saruman, while we have time.&quot;


Your post provides at least some explanation as to why Gandalf would say
that he *cannot* speak openly of the &quot;secret hope&quot;. Thanks. :-)

Bill

&quot;Wise fool&quot;
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

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#23: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-05-30 17:24:00 by morgothscurse2002

On Sat, 27 May 2006 00:13:52 GMT, &quot;Bill O'Meally&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com" target="_blank">OMeallyMD&#64;wise.rr.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;Morgoth's Curse wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Perhaps Gandalf supplied just enough information to provide a measure
&gt;&gt; of hope to Theodon.
&gt;
&gt;That's what I suggested in my reply to Jim Harker earlier in this
&gt;thread.

I just thought that a more elaborate explanation was in order. ;-)

&gt;&lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; In their hasty and secret conference upon the stairs of Meduseld.
&gt;&gt; Gandalf explains that the Wise have discovered that Sauron--the master
&gt;&gt; of Saruman--has a fatal weakness which can be exploited if only they
&gt;&gt; are granted enough time. He does not provide the details for several
&gt;&gt; reasons: He simply does not have time--Saruman's armies have already
&gt;&gt; issued from Isengard and it is essential to deal with that threat
&gt;&gt; immediately. Moreover, even Elrond had believed it was necessary to
&gt;&gt; describe the entire history of the Ring so that all present at the
&gt;&gt; Council could fully appreciate the nature of the threat and of the
&gt;&gt; opportunity.
&gt;
&gt;And unlike Denethor, who though not exactly a lore master, still knew
&gt;enough of Gondor's history to know about Isildur's Bane, and knew
&gt;somewhat of the history of the Rings of Power, Theoden (please note the
&gt;spelling :-))

I would correct my spell-checker, but I have an appointment to be
flogged for overlooking this error. ;-)

&gt;as king of the more rustic Rohirrim, would probably not
&gt;have that background to draw upon. It is doubtful that Gandalf would
&gt;have taken the time to explain the whole history of the Rings in the
&gt;short span that he had with Theoden. Rather, I think he told him just
&gt;enough to provide him with some hope.

I am not even certain that Theoden knew of the existence of the White
Council. It seems possible since Saruman was the titular leader of
it, but I am not prepared to make any wagers on it. On the other
hand, Boromir had visited Rohan several months earlier and informed
Theoden of the nature of his errand, so he could reasonably infer that
Denethor was involved; Theoden had no reason to mistrust the Steward
of Gondor. Gandalf had also warned the king that Saruman was a
traitor after he escaped from Isengard, but we do not have any way to
know exactly what Gandalf said during that encounter.
&gt;
&gt;&lt;snip other good points&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; So Gandalf compromises and provides just enough information to
&gt;&gt; persuade Theodon that he need not despair and trusts him to do the
&gt;&gt; right thing. Gandalf himself said it best: &quot;we must first destroy
&gt;&gt; the threat of Saruman, while we have time.&quot;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;Your post provides at least some explanation as to why Gandalf would say
&gt;that he *cannot* speak openly of the &quot;secret hope&quot;. Thanks. :-)
&gt;
&gt;Bill

I do what little I can. ;-)

Morgoth's Curse

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#24: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-07-03 20:19:44 by Troels Forchhammer

In message &lt;news:<a href="mailto:gdtc72l0e8kjr9b8jn1gjh4bap4ldu57s1&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">gdtc72l0e8kjr9b8jn1gjh4bap4ldu57s1&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;
&quot;Morgoth's Curse&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:morgothscurse2002&#64;nospam.yahoo.com" target="_blank">morgothscurse2002&#64;nospam.yahoo.com</a>&gt; enriched us
with:
&gt;
&gt; On 22 May 2006 18:46:19 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid" target="_blank">Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;

It's my turn to resurrect a conversation that is beyond its prime,
digging back to the end of May ;)


Discussing what precisely Gandalf told Théoden in that whispered
conversation outside Meduseld, which ended with Théoden rising 'to
his full height' looking to the east as Gandalf comments, 'that way
lies our hope, where sits our greatest fear.'

&gt;&gt; If the hope Gandalf speaks of, and which, from the context, I
&gt;&gt; think he must have explained to Théoden, isn't Frodo's mission,
&gt;&gt; then what? How do we make sense of this?
&gt;
&gt; Perhaps Gandalf supplied just enough information to provide a
&gt; measure of hope to Theodon.

Rather a great hope, I'd say (making 'the light shine brighter in
Théoden's eye'), and also enough to provide Théoden with a direction,
east.

As I see it, it is mostly Gandalf's later comment that is giving rise
to doubts as to whether Gandalf told Théoden about the Ring, but I
also think that the same passage puts the One Ring within the limits
of what Théoden has been told:

If Éomer had not defied Wormtongue's voice speaking with
your mouth, those Orcs would have reached Isengard by now,
bearing a great prize. Not indeed that prize which Saruman
desires above all else, but at the least two members of my
Company, sharers of a secret hope, of which even to you,
lord, I cannot yet speak openly.
[Gandalf, LotR III,6 'The King of the Golden Hall']

The 'prize which Saruman desires above all else' is, of course, the
One Ring, and the reference to that here, when speaking directly to
Théoden, certainly suggests, to me, that Gandalf knows that Théoden
will know of what he speaks. So the continuation must mean other than
that he cannot yet tell Théoden about the One Ring at all.

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; Recall that Boromir was astounded to learn of the Ring's
&gt; existence at the Council of Elrond.

/Continued/ existence, yes. He had heard about the Enemy's Ring, but
they (the people of Gondor, presumably) 'believed that it perished
from the world in the ruin of his first realm.'

&gt; Up to that moment, Boromir had no idea that Sauron had any
&gt; vulnerabilities at all. It is unlikely that Theodon was any
&gt; better informed than Boromir.

And also unlikely that he was any worse informed in this -- i.e.
Théoden would have heard about the Master Ring, but believe that it
had perished three thousand years earlier.

So that, in my opinion, would be the basis that Gandalf had to work
from; that Théoden believed the Master Ring destroyed. This is the
only vulnerability that Sauron could have: the destruction of the
thing that they had believed already destroyed. If the Ring had been
destroyed and Sauron still was as powerful as this, then he must have
been truly indestructible, but if the Ring was /not/ destroyed and
they are assured that the destruction of the Ring will vanquish him,
then there is hope -- the only possible hope, IMO.

The whole passage about looking east shows that Théoden knows at
least that this secret hope involves a mission to Mordor, and that he
also knows enough to be aware that it is not to send a valiant
warrior to kill Sauron (that took a huge army and the lives of the
High Kings of both Elves and Men to do that last time), so the
possibilites are very limited -- in particular when considering also
Gandalf's reference to the prize which Saruman desires.

&gt; In their hasty and secret conference upon the stairs of Meduseld.
[...]
&gt; He does not provide the details for several reasons: He simply
&gt; does not have time--Saruman's armies have already issued from
&gt; Isengard and it is essential to deal with that threat immediately.

Actually the second Battle of the Fords of Isen take place that same
day (Théodred died in the first battle). And we also have Gandalf's
introduction to the whispered conversation:

'There is no time to tell all that you should hear,' said
Gandalf. 'Yet if my hope is not cheated, a time will come
ere long when I can speak more fully. Behold! you are come
into a peril greater even than the wit of Wormtongue could
weave into your dreams. But see! you dream no longer. You
live. Gondor and Rohan do not stand alone. The enemy is
strong beyond our reckoning, yet we have a hope at which he
has not guessed.'
[Gandalf, LotR III,6 'The King of the Golden Hall']

Besides stating time as the limiting factor, this also, IMO, shows
that Gandalf had no reservations against full honesty towards
Théoden, he even notes that Théoden /should/ hear more. I quite
agree, though, that Gandalf would not have had the time to tell the
full story -- especially as it was told at the Council.

&gt; Moreover, even Elrond had believed it was necessary to describe
&gt; the entire history of the Ring so that all present at the Council
&gt; could fully appreciate the nature of the threat and of the
&gt; opportunity.

Of course. At the Council of Elrond, however, the purpose of telling
the full story was to enable everyone to help with the decision that
the Council had to reach. Théoden only had to be told what had been
decided -- not given the whole background for that decision (it was
too late to change anything, anyway).

Essentially all that Gandalf had to say was &quot;We found the Enemy's
Ring! Yes, it is true, I promise you, it was never destroyed. Saruman
desires it and has tried to capture it, but it escaped. We've sent a
mission to Mount Doom to destroy it, because that will also destroy
Sauron.&quot;

Any extra time implied by the &quot;Quickly now Gandalf spoke.&quot; paragraph
was used to convince Théoden of the truth, perhaps in particular of
item one, that they really, really did have Sauron's Master Ring ;)

&gt; Gandalf also does not fully trust Theodon.
[...]

I disagree. I don't see any reservation in Gandalf's behaviour, and
he strongly implies that the full story is only postponed and that
Théoden has a right to hear it ('all that you /should/ hear' -- my
emphasis).

&gt; Gandalf's resurrection must have been as great of a shock to
&gt; Theodon as it had been for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli.

Of course not.

Théoden has heard a rumour through Éomer, and though he probably
believed the news, he has no problems readjusting, merely noting that
'news from afar is seldom sooth. Here you come again!'

&gt; It is hardly the best time to deliver the full news of the Ring.

And he doesn't -- the discussion regards rather how much of it he did
deliver ;)

One item that I think he did not bother to confuse Théoden with was
that of the Haflings -- hence Théoden's surprise at seeing Merry and
Pippin in Isengard (not at their location, but at their nature).

&gt; (Recall also that Gandalf refused to deliver that information
&gt; even to Denethor until Faramir returned and described his
&gt; encounter with Frodo.)

Unlike Théoden, Gandalf suspects Denethor from the beginning -- he
knew about Boromir's fall, and didn't trust the father any more than
the oldest son.

&lt;snip&gt;

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is &lt;t.forch(a)email.dk&gt;

&quot;What're quantum mechanics?&quot;
&quot;I don't know. People who repair quantums, I suppose.&quot;
- /Eric/ (Terry Pratchett)

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#25: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-07-13 21:52:35 by morgothscurse2002

On 3 Jul 2006 18:19:44 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
&lt;<a href="mailto:Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid" target="_blank">Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;In message &lt;news:<a href="mailto:gdtc72l0e8kjr9b8jn1gjh4bap4ldu57s1&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">gdtc72l0e8kjr9b8jn1gjh4bap4ldu57s1&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;
&gt;&quot;Morgoth's Curse&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:morgothscurse2002&#64;nospam.yahoo.com" target="_blank">morgothscurse2002&#64;nospam.yahoo.com</a>&gt; enriched us
&gt;with:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; On 22 May 2006 18:46:19 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid" target="_blank">Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;It's my turn to resurrect a conversation that is beyond its prime,
&gt;digging back to the end of May ;)

Welcome to the Dead Thread Faction, Troels. Our numbers and our power
is growing daily and soon, very soon, we shall rule the Usenet! ^___^

&gt;Discussing what precisely Gandalf told Théoden in that whispered
&gt;conversation outside Meduseld, which ended with Théoden rising 'to
&gt;his full height' looking to the east as Gandalf comments, 'that way
&gt;lies our hope, where sits our greatest fear.'
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; If the hope Gandalf speaks of, and which, from the context, I
&gt;&gt;&gt; think he must have explained to Théoden, isn't Frodo's mission,
&gt;&gt;&gt; then what? How do we make sense of this?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Perhaps Gandalf supplied just enough information to provide a
&gt;&gt; measure of hope to Theodon.
&gt;
&gt;Rather a great hope, I'd say (making 'the light shine brighter in
&gt;Théoden's eye'), and also enough to provide Théoden with a direction,
&gt;east.

I wonder if Gandalf established a clear link between Sauron and
Saruman. Eomer certainly would have reported as much when he returned,
but Theoden may not have believed it--and Wormtongue certainly would
have ridiculed the idea. I recall Eomer's words to Aragorn when they
first met: Saruman was Rohan's primary concern at that moment.
Theoden, on the other hand, could not have been ignorant of the threat
that Sauron posed. He had lived his life in the growing shadow of
Mordor: he was seventy-one years old when the War of the Ring began
and had been three years old when Sauron openly declared his power in
Mordor. Rohan had just enough men to deal with the threat of Saruman,
but could not possibly win a war with Mordor. Any news of Sauron's
vulnerability would therefore be welcome indeed.

&gt;As I see it, it is mostly Gandalf's later comment that is giving rise
&gt;to doubts as to whether Gandalf told Théoden about the Ring, but I
&gt;also think that the same passage puts the One Ring within the limits
&gt;of what Théoden has been told:
&gt;
&gt; If Éomer had not defied Wormtongue's voice speaking with
&gt; your mouth, those Orcs would have reached Isengard by now,
&gt; bearing a great prize. Not indeed that prize which Saruman
&gt; desires above all else, but at the least two members of my
&gt; Company, sharers of a secret hope, of which even to you,
&gt; lord, I cannot yet speak openly.
&gt; [Gandalf, LotR III,6 'The King of the Golden Hall']
&gt;
&gt;The 'prize which Saruman desires above all else' is, of course, the
&gt;One Ring, and the reference to that here, when speaking directly to
&gt;Théoden, certainly suggests, to me, that Gandalf knows that Théoden
&gt;will know of what he speaks. So the continuation must mean other than
&gt;that he cannot yet tell Théoden about the One Ring at all.

But if Gandalf had already mentioned the Ring a few moments earlier,
then the reference to Eomer's deeds and Saruman's desire is
unnecessary. I wonder if perhaps Gandalf's words &quot;sharers of a secret
hope, of which even to you, lord, I cannot yet speak openly&quot; are in
fact a pointed warning to Theoden that the information he had just
been given was a state secret and therefore not to be shared with
anybody. But why not just included that information in the previous
whispered conversation?

&gt;&lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Recall that Boromir was astounded to learn of the Ring's
&gt;&gt; existence at the Council of Elrond.
&gt;
&gt;/Continued/ existence, yes. He had heard about the Enemy's Ring, but
&gt;they (the people of Gondor, presumably) 'believed that it perished
&gt;from the world in the ruin of his first realm.'
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Up to that moment, Boromir had no idea that Sauron had any
&gt;&gt; vulnerabilities at all. It is unlikely that Theodon was any
&gt;&gt; better informed than Boromir.
&gt;
&gt;And also unlikely that he was any worse informed in this -- i.e.
&gt;Théoden would have heard about the Master Ring, but believe that it
&gt;had perished three thousand years earlier.

Is there any evidence that Theoden ever knew of the existence of the
Ring? Boromir would have heard about it because he was the Heir of
Denethor. In due time, he would have become the Steward of Gondor. His
father was also the loremaster of Gondor. It was quite natural that
Boromir would learn about the Ring when he learned the history of his
ancestors and his people. Theodon was born and educated in Gondor,
but would that education have included the tale of the Ring as it was
known to the loremasters? The appendixes report that Denethor was a
man who kept his own counsel and mistrusted all others who resisted
Sauron unless they served him alone. Theoden was an ally, not a
subject. I assert that it may be possible that Theoden knew about the
Ring, but it was also unlikely.
&gt;
&gt;So that, in my opinion, would be the basis that Gandalf had to work
&gt;from; that Théoden believed the Master Ring destroyed. This is the
&gt;only vulnerability that Sauron could have: the destruction of the
&gt;thing that they had believed already destroyed. If the Ring had been
&gt;destroyed and Sauron still was as powerful as this, then he must have
&gt;been truly indestructible, but if the Ring was /not/ destroyed and
&gt;they are assured that the destruction of the Ring will vanquish him,
&gt;then there is hope -- the only possible hope, IMO.

This is based on the presumption that the loremasters who had taught
Theoden understood the link between the Ring and Sauron. Recall that
even Boromir--who had heard of the Ring--did not understand the link
between its existence and the power of Sauron. In one of his
letters, Tolkien emphasized that the Eldar had kept the matter of the
Ring as secret as long as possible. It seems unlikely that the Elves
would have shared the secrets of the rings with even the loremasters
of Gondor and especially after the Last Alliance when Isildur took the
Ruling Ring for his own.
&gt;
&gt;The whole passage about looking east shows that Théoden knows at
&gt;least that this secret hope involves a mission to Mordor, and that he
&gt;also knows enough to be aware that it is not to send a valiant
&gt;warrior to kill Sauron (that took a huge army and the lives of the
&gt;High Kings of both Elves and Men to do that last time), so the
&gt;possibilites are very limited -- in particular when considering also
&gt;Gandalf's reference to the prize which Saruman desires.

It is, of course, very difficult to determine what Theoden knew and
imagined and what Gandalf actually told him. My theory is based on
minimal knowledge of the circumstances at stake. Your theory presumes
a certain amount of detailed knowledge on the part of Theoden. It is
possible that we are both right, I suppose. In consideration of the
circumstances and the hasty nature of their conference, I chose to be
conservative. Is there any information in the Reader's Companion
about this point?
&gt;
&gt;&gt; In their hasty and secret conference upon the stairs of Meduseld.
&gt;[...]
&gt;&gt; He does not provide the details for several reasons: He simply
&gt;&gt; does not have time--Saruman's armies have already issued from
&gt;&gt; Isengard and it is essential to deal with that threat immediately.
&gt;
&gt;Actually the second Battle of the Fords of Isen take place that same
&gt;day (Théodred died in the first battle). And we also have Gandalf's
&gt;introduction to the whispered conversation:
&gt;
&gt; 'There is no time to tell all that you should hear,' said
&gt; Gandalf. 'Yet if my hope is not cheated, a time will come
&gt; ere long when I can speak more fully. Behold! you are come
&gt; into a peril greater even than the wit of Wormtongue could
&gt; weave into your dreams. But see! you dream no longer. You
&gt; live. Gondor and Rohan do not stand alone. The enemy is
&gt; strong beyond our reckoning, yet we have a hope at which he
&gt; has not guessed.'
&gt; [Gandalf, LotR III,6 'The King of the Golden Hall']
&gt;
&gt;Besides stating time as the limiting factor, this also, IMO, shows
&gt;that Gandalf had no reservations against full honesty towards
&gt;Théoden, he even notes that Théoden /should/ hear more. I quite
&gt;agree, though, that Gandalf would not have had the time to tell the
&gt;full story -- especially as it was told at the Council.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Moreover, even Elrond had believed it was necessary to describe
&gt;&gt; the entire history of the Ring so that all present at the Council
&gt;&gt; could fully appreciate the nature of the threat and of the
&gt;&gt; opportunity.
&gt;
&gt;Of course. At the Council of Elrond, however, the purpose of telling
&gt;the full story was to enable everyone to help with the decision that
&gt;the Council had to reach. Théoden only had to be told what had been
&gt;decided -- not given the whole background for that decision (it was
&gt;too late to change anything, anyway).
&gt;
&gt;Essentially all that Gandalf had to say was &quot;We found the Enemy's
&gt;Ring! Yes, it is true, I promise you, it was never destroyed. Saruman
&gt;desires it and has tried to capture it, but it escaped. We've sent a
&gt;mission to Mount Doom to destroy it, because that will also destroy
&gt;Sauron.&quot;
&gt;
&gt;Any extra time implied by the &quot;Quickly now Gandalf spoke.&quot; paragraph
&gt;was used to convince Théoden of the truth, perhaps in particular of
&gt;item one, that they really, really did have Sauron's Master Ring ;)
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Gandalf also does not fully trust Theodon.
&gt;[...]
&gt;
&gt;I disagree. I don't see any reservation in Gandalf's behaviou0r, and
&gt;he strongly implies that the full story is only postponed and that
&gt;Théoden has a right to hear it ('all that you /should/ hear' -- my
&gt;emphasis).

Though he never explicitly states as much, Gandalf is willing to share
the secret of the Ring after two conditions are met: The immediate
threat of Saruman is thwarted and Theoden has had an opportunity to
prove that he has been fully healed of the bewitchments that
Wormtongue laid upon him. Recall that during the Battle of the
Hornburg, Theoden doubted (and not without reason) that Gandalf's
counsel had been good. (&quot;Had I known that the strength of Isengard has
grown so great, maybe I should not so rashly have ridden forth to meet
it, for all the arts if Gandalf. His counsel seems not now so good as
it did under the morning sun.&quot;) This is Theoden's moment of doubt. It
is only with his next words--words that Aragorn almost certainly would
have reported to Gandalf--that Theoden becomes worthy of Gandalf's
complete trust. He will ride out against his enemy even though he is
many times outnumbered and has little hope to win or even to escape.
In that moment, Theoden emerges from the shadows that Saruman has cast
on him and demonstrates that he is indeed the Heir of Eorl, a lord who
will stand firm with Gondor against the might of Mordor.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Gandalf's resurrection must have been as great of a shock to
&gt;&gt; Theodon as it had been for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli.
&gt;
&gt;Of course not.
&gt;
&gt;Théoden has heard a rumour through Éomer, and though he probably
&gt;believed the news, he has no problems readjusting, merely noting that
&gt;'news from afar is seldom sooth. Here you come again!'

It is important to recall that we never witness Theoden's _initial_
reaction. One of the guards at the gate of Edoras had already
informed the king that Gandalf had arrived and demanded an audience. I
readily concede that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli were much more amazed
because they had personally seen Gandalf plunge into the abyss of
Moria. Theoden had only heard a report from Eomer, but Shadowfax had
also returned shortly before Eomer learned of Gandalf's demise. In
consideration of Theoden's grim mood--his kingdom is being assailed,
his only son has just been slain and Wormtongue is whispering grim
warnings of treachery and defeat in his ear--I think he was only too
ready to believe that Gandalf had fallen in battle. Perhaps he even
wished it was true since his war with Saruman had begun only after
Gandalf's escape from the Orthanc.

&gt;&gt; It is hardly the best time to deliver the full news of the Ring.
&gt;
&gt;And he doesn't -- the discussion regards rather how much of it he did
&gt;deliver ;)


&gt;One item that I think he did not bother to confuse Théoden with was
&gt;that of the Haflings -- hence Théoden's surprise at seeing Merry and
&gt;Pippin in Isengard (not at their location, but at their nature).

Absolutely. Gandalf lacked the time to fully explain the peril and
opportunity that the Ring offered; he certainly did not have time to
explain the existence and nature of the people chosen to bear the Ring
to the Cracks of Doom.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; (Recall also that Gandalf refused to deliver that information
&gt;&gt; even to Denethor until Faramir returned and described his
&gt;&gt; encounter with Frodo.)
&gt;
&gt;Unlike Théoden, Gandalf suspects Denethor from the beginning -- he
&gt;knew about Boromir's fall, and didn't trust the father any more than
&gt;the oldest son.

That is certainly true, but is also true that Gandalf is very much
aware that Frodo's peril increases with every step towards Mordor. The
fact that Frodo was beyond the aid of any of the Company (or indeed
any of the Wise) must have been very frustrating for Gandalf. Only
time would tell whether Frodo had succeeded or failed. Gandalf's only
hope now is secrecy: A rumor or even just a whisper of Frodo's
mission in the wrong ears will have disastrous consequences! It just
seems strange to me that Gandalf would emphasize secrecy in the matter
of troop movements within Rohan and yet entrust such a critical secret
as the potential fate of the Ring to a king who had, just several
months earlier, effectively booted him out of the kingdom.

Morgoth's Curse

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#26: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-07-13 22:14:42 by Phlip

Morgoth's Curse wrote:

&gt; But if Gandalf had already mentioned the Ring a few moments earlier, then
&gt; the reference to Eomer's deeds and Saruman's desire is unnecessary. I
&gt; wonder if perhaps Gandalf's words &quot;sharers of a secret hope, of which even
&gt; to you, lord, I cannot yet speak openly&quot; are in fact a pointed warning to
&gt; Theoden that the information he had just been given was a state secret and
&gt; therefore not to be shared with anybody. But why not just included that
&gt; information in the previous whispered conversation?

Because Gandalf's political chops require him to state the severity of
Saruman's treason, out loud for others to hear, and in a way that absolves
Theoden. His court must hear that Gandalf has a clue vs. Sauron, that
Saruman was risking the West, not just Rohan, and that Gandalf and Theoden
are sharing a secret. Theoden's court must hear this from Gandalf, not
Theoden, because any word of Theoden's against Saruman would be viewed as
small politics.

&gt; Is there any evidence that Theoden ever knew of the existence of the Ring?
&gt; Boromir would have heard about it because he was the Heir of Denethor. In
&gt; due time, he would have become the Steward of Gondor. His father was also
&gt; the loremaster of Gondor.

Theoden grew up in Minas Tirith, right?

&gt; Absolutely. Gandalf lacked the time to fully explain the peril and
&gt; opportunity that the Ring offered; he certainly did not have time to
&gt; explain the existence and nature of the people chosen to bear the Ring
&gt; to the Cracks of Doom.

A common theme among the nobility of the South: They all know fragments of
the rumor. Then Gandalf or Frodo are able to tell them just enough to
connect the dots, and then it all makes sense.

Everyone has heard the poem &quot;One Ring to Rule them All&quot;...

&gt; ...This is Theoden's moment of doubt...

And it's also the beginning of his end. Every other sentence from Theoden
keeps fore-telling he will die before Minas Tirith. This is beyond
foresight and foreshadowing; it's suicide via self-fulfilling prophecy. He
is redeeming himself for allowing Wormtongue to help Saruman do so much
damage to his country, and his family.

--
Phlip

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#27: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:47:39 by Christopher Kreuzer

Troels Forchhammer &lt;<a href="mailto:Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid" target="_blank">Troels&#64;ThisIsFake.invalid</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; It's my turn to resurrect a conversation that is beyond its prime,
&gt; digging back to the end of May ;)
&gt;
&gt; Discussing what precisely Gandalf told Théoden in that whispered
&gt; conversation outside Meduseld, which ended with Théoden rising 'to
&gt; his full height' looking to the east as Gandalf comments, 'that way
&gt; lies our hope, where sits our greatest fear.'

&lt;snip&gt;

I haven't had time to look through the whole thread to see if this point
was raised earlier (apologies if it has), but looking at 'Reader's
Companion', I see that they quote an earlier draft of this chapter from
HoME (The Treason of Isengard, to be precise), which has Gandalf
speaking openly to Theoden about: Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond, the Council
of Elrond, the journey and perils encountered by the Company, the death
of Boromir, and, crucially for this thread, Gandalf openly says (with
others nearby hearing all this as well) that &quot;two small folk&quot; have gone
into the &quot;heart of menace&quot;, and with a &quot;look eastward&quot;, Gandalf makes it
clear that this is where they have gone.

The problem though is that we have no clue as to whether Tolkien rewrote
this and obscured what Gandalf was saying to: (a) save space and make
the writing more efficient; (b) leave things unclear; (c) still have all
this said to Theoden, but sotto voce; or (d) as a total rejection of the
idea of Gandalf revealing anything to Theoden.

I think a combination of (a) and (c).

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

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#28: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:55:50 by Phlip

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

&gt; The problem though is that we have no clue as to whether Tolkien rewrote
&gt; this and obscured what Gandalf was saying to: (a) save space and make
&gt; the writing more efficient; (b) leave things unclear; (c) still have all
&gt; this said to Theoden, but sotto voce; or (d) as a total rejection of the
&gt; idea of Gandalf revealing anything to Theoden.
&gt;
&gt; I think a combination of (a) and (c).

And the exact distinction between audience participation and fanfic is..?

--
Phlip
<a href="http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand" target="_blank">http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand</a> &lt;-- NOT a blog!!!

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#29: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:15:43 by Christopher Kreuzer

Phlip &lt;<a href="mailto:phlipcpp&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">phlipcpp&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; The problem though is that we have no clue as to whether Tolkien
&gt;&gt; rewrote this and obscured what Gandalf was saying to: (a) save space
&gt;&gt; and make the writing more efficient; (b) leave things unclear; (c)
&gt;&gt; still have all this said to Theoden, but sotto voce; or (d) as a
&gt;&gt; total rejection of the idea of Gandalf revealing anything to Theoden.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I think a combination of (a) and (c).
&gt;
&gt; And the exact distinction between audience participation and fanfic
&gt; is..?

Message not getting through...

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#30: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:43:53 by Phlip

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

&gt; Message not getting through...

Gandalf said to Theoden _________. The audience is invited to fill in the
blank.

Happens all the time in literature. Just that Tolkien is so delightfully
deterministic, most of the time, it makes his incidences more rare and
special.

--
Phlip
<a href="http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand" target="_blank">http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand</a> &lt;-- NOT a blog!!!

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#31: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:01:16 by Christopher Kreuzer

Phlip &lt;<a href="mailto:phlipcpp&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">phlipcpp&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Message not getting through...
&gt;
&gt; Gandalf said to Theoden _________. The audience is invited to fill in
&gt; the blank.

Ooh! I get it! It's like those headline writing competitions. :-)

&quot;Vertically challenged heroes head east!&quot;
&quot;Frodo and batman struggle onwards&quot;
&quot;Small hands move wheels of the world!&quot;

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#32: Re: Q: Was Theoden ever told...

Posted on 2006-07-22 04:59:40 by Phlip

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

&gt; Ooh! I get it! It's like those headline writing competitions. :-)

No, like in /The Fountainhead/ by Ayn Rand, when Peter Keating accidentally
lets Ellsworth M. Toohey know he has proposed to Catherine Halsey, and in
the next paragraph Dominique Francon shows up to interfere.

We don't know what Toohey said to Francon. Although in Ayn Rand's case the
book is already so thick with examples of Toohey's meddling that we don't
care, and we are relieved not to hear the sordid details.

Insert discussion of the differences between AR and JRRT here --&gt; [ ]

Please write legibly.

--
Phlip
<a href="http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand" target="_blank">http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand</a> &lt;-- NOT a blog!!!

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