|
Sprinkler Systems
Uhaul move
Lawn care
Roses and trees
Ford Parts
Chrysler Parts
Lake Powell
New IPod Touch Apps
New IPhone Apps
IPhone Apps
IPad Information
IPad Apps
Android APPS
Android Games APPS
Android Systems
Android Tablets APPS and Beyond
Smartphone Apps
Smartphone Games Apps Repair and Tools
Tablet PC
Car Sharing Car Leasing
Tabler Pc
Fly Fishing
Toyota Cars
Vacation Rentals
Stock market
NYSE
SSE Stock
Freight & Shipping News
Gluten
Lactose
Gout
My Coupon Life
Campgrounds Check
Outdoor
Kitchen Design and Redoo
Bath Remodeling
Palm Springs
Las Vegas Vacation Tipps
Lake Powell Boating
Homes for lease
Electric and green Car Blog
Pearls and diamonds
Whatsapp and forget SMS Blog, What is Whatsapp App
Solar Panel Solar Energie Sun Power Blog
|
Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » JRRT and the Great Depression
| JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105170] |
Fr, 05 August 2005 22:31 |
|
Was watching /Gone With The Wind/ the other night and in the interval
since have realized that everything Scarlett went through immediately
after the war must have really resonated with a Depression-era audience.
That movie came out roughly at the time JRRT was starting to realize
his /Hobbit/ sequel was not going to be a bedtime story, and I've
started to wonder what, if any, effect the Great Depression had on JRRT
and on this work.
Of course, I don't know how bad it was in the UK, though I've heard it
was an international phenomenon. It was pretty bad here. It's not
mentioned in the biography, as far as I can recall -- though some
hardships during WWII are (the chickens, for instance)-- and he
certainly remained employed all through that time, but some of the
letters I'm currently reading are from that period and JRRT does show
concern in a few parts of these letters about financial considerations.
What was the Great Depression like in Britain? Did it affect anything
in /The Lord of the Rings/, and if so, how? Just to toss an idea out
there (though it's probably not a very substantial one), given what JRRT
said about escape in "On Fairy-stories," could it be possible that
writing /The Lord of the Rings,/ rather than the lighter-hearted
/Hobbit/ sequel expected by the publishers and the public, was indeed an
escape for JRRT from a world darkened by economic depression?
Barb
--
Much of modern education is really just displacement activity.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105185 ] |
Sa, 06 August 2005 11:48 |
|
Belba Grubb From Stock wrote:
> Of course, I don't know how bad it was in the UK, though I've heard it
> was an international phenomenon. It was pretty bad here. It's not
> mentioned in the biography, as far as I can recall -- though some
> hardships during WWII are (the chickens, for instance)-- and he
> certainly remained employed all through that time, but some of the
> letters I'm currently reading are from that period and JRRT does show
> concern in a few parts of these letters about financial considerations.
> What was the Great Depression like in Britain? Did it affect anything
> in /The Lord of the Rings/, and if so, how? Just to toss an idea out
> there (though it's probably not a very substantial one), given what JRRT
> said about escape in "On Fairy-stories," could it be possible that
> writing /The Lord of the Rings,/ rather than the lighter-hearted
> /Hobbit/ sequel expected by the publishers and the public, was indeed an
> escape for JRRT from a world darkened by economic depression?
The Brits had other things besides Hard Times to worry them. They had
the bolsheviks and the Narzis to vex them. The U.S. lived in stupid and
spending isolation behind two great oceans untill the Japs bombed Pearl
Harbor. So the U.S. was vexed by unemployment and not by war until
about 1940.
Bob Kolker
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105194 ] |
Sa, 06 August 2005 17:54 |
|
Robert J. Kolker wrote:
> The Brits had other things besides Hard Times to worry them. They had
> the bolsheviks and the Narzis to vex them. The U.S. lived in stupid and
> spending isolation behind two great oceans untill the Japs bombed Pearl
> Harbor. So the U.S. was vexed by unemployment and not by war until
> about 1940.
I wouldn't be too hard on the U.S. and its isolation. In 1914,
the Brits and the rest of Europe rushed into a completely
unnecessary and futile war, insisted on fighting it to its
bloody conclusion despite the fact that they were throwing
hundreds of thousands of lives away for absolutely nothing,
and afterwards treated the losing side absurdly unjustly.
The Communists and Nazis were a direct result of that war.
Besides, we Americans do best when we're looking out for
ourselves (and occasionally our real friends) and not trying
to run the world, as evidenced by what's going on in Iraq.
The world is better off when we're "isolationist."
Look at all the money we've spent on Iraq along with aid to
Israel and Egypt. Now imagine having put all that money
instead into nuclear power plants and building an infra-
structure for electric cars, along with tax subsidies for
buying such cars. We'd soon have been in a position to
properly punish the Islamists for 9/11, by simply cutting
them off from us, stop buying their oil and letting them
immigrate here, and letting their part of the world wallow
in its own sordid backwardness. The best revenge for 9/11
would have been to have nothing whatever to do with them
until they wised up and decided to join the modern world
of their own accord. We can't drag them there, nor is our
job to try.
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105197 ] |
Sa, 06 August 2005 19:09 |
|
Belba Grubb From Stock wrote:
> I've started to wonder what, if any, effect the Great Depression
> had on JRRT and on this work.
By Frodo's time all of Middle Earth was in a great depression.
The formerly flourishing kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor had fallen into
decline or vanished altogether; where the price of a bony, underfed,
dispirited pony had diminished to a mere 4 silver pennies.
These were the fading years of the Eldar, who attempted no new
enterprise and were content to live in memory of the past.
The Dwarves hid themselves in deep places, guarding their hoards,
but one by one their ancient treasures were plundered, and they
became a wandering people (like the migrant workers in Steinbeck's
_The Grapes of Wrath_, perhaps the most famous Depression novel).
The Hobbits had sought refuge in rustic isolation.
In Bree, business was not even fair, it was downright bad.
Treebeard & Co. had lost track of their lovers for millennia;
that would be depressing for anyone, even an Ent.
Like the Dirty Thirties of our last century, Middle Earth's
depression had encouraged the growth of Fascism (the Sauronist
movement) and Communism (Saurman's "Gather and Share" economic
model).
However, as in our world the Depression was brought to an end
by a great and terrible war.
Sean
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105200 ] |
Sa, 06 August 2005 22:29 |
|
Flame of the West wrote:
> I wouldn't be too hard on the U.S. and its isolation.
If you see chickening out of your responsibilities and
appeasing dictators as a good thing...
In 1914,
> the Brits and the rest of Europe rushed into a completely
> unnecessary and futile war, insisted on fighting it to its
> bloody conclusion despite the fact that they were throwing
> hundreds of thousands of lives away for absolutely nothing,
How is that? Most critics say that their mistake was to end
the war too soon, before the Germans could realise they were
truly beaten, and Churchill and Roosevelt were determined to
defeat them completely in the next one to avoid repeating
that mistake. But how do you think the Brits could have ended
the first war before 1918?
> and afterwards treated the losing side absurdly unjustly.
Don't know how unjust it was, but definetely unwise.
> The Communists and Nazis were a direct result of that war.
Not direct, although it had some effect in that. The collapse
of Tzars was a direct result of the war, but the communists
came to power only through a long civil war. And the main
element in Nazis taking over was the great depression.
> Besides, we Americans do best when we're looking out for
> ourselves (and occasionally our real friends)
Who do you think are your "real" friends? Does that mean
countries that are economically and militarily completely
dependent on you, like Israel?
and not trying
> to run the world, as evidenced by what's going on in Iraq.
> The world is better off when we're "isolationist."
Unfortunately not. But why can't you find a middle road between
running the world and total isolation? It's ridiculous how you
people always insist it has to be one or the other.
Morgil
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105203 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 01:09 |
|
Flame of the West wrote:
>I wouldn't be too hard on the U.S. and its isolation. In 1914,
the Brits and the rest of Europe rushed into a completely
unnecessary and futile war, insisted on fighting it to its
bloody conclusion despite the fact that they were throwing
hundreds of thousands of lives away for absolutely nothing,
and afterwards treated the losing side absurdly unjustly.
The Communists and Nazis were a direct result of that war.
I know that the idea that it didn't matter who won WWI is very popular
among some Americans, but I disagree. Basically, both wars
were about fighting German militarism and expansionism. Despite the
Russian distraction, it really comes down to the western democracies
resisting anti-democratic aggression. In fact, many historians regard
the two World Wars as one single war with a breathing pause of 20
years.
=D6jevind
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105204 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 07:20 |
|
Morgil wrote:
> Who do you think are your "real" friends? Does that mean
> countries that are economically and militarily completely
> dependent on you, like Israel?
No. Real friends don't sink the U.S.S. Liberty.
> But why can't you find a middle road between
> running the world and total isolation? It's ridiculous how you
> people always insist it has to be one or the other.
That's nonsense, go study your history. But why
should I bother arguing with you? It's obvious
that whatever the U.S. does, you're going to hate
us. Nothing we do pleases you. Have you ever
had any words of approval for the United States?
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105205 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 07:29 |
|
Öjevind Lång wrote:
> I know that the idea that it didn't matter who won WWI is very popular
> among some Americans, but I disagree.
I didn't exactly mean that. When I spoke of throwing away
lives for absolutely nothing, I meant it literally: both
sides would pour troops into enemy fire knowing full well
they couldn't take any appreciable real estate. Both
sides just sat in place killing each others' troops.
> Basically, both wars
> were about fighting German militarism and expansionism.
Actually, Germany didn't start WW1. The Serbian terrorist
state did that, with Russia's help when the Austrians
tried to put an end to Serboterrorism. If Russia hadn't
militarized against Austria, the conflict would not have
escalated into a world war and Germany would not have had
an excuse to get involved.
> Despite the
> Russian distraction, it really comes down to the western democracies
> resisting anti-democratic aggression. In fact, many historians regard
> the two World Wars as one single war with a breathing pause of 20
> years.
You might as well add the Cold War to that list. The Western
democracies were threatened with anti-democratic aggression
until fifty years after WW2. It's rather an odd interpretation
of 20th Century European history to regard Germany as the only
anti-democratic aggressor.
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105220 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 12:41 |
|
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 01:20:13 -0400, Flame of the West
<spamalot [at] solinas.org> wrote:
>Morgil wrote:
>
>> Who do you think are your "real" friends? Does that mean
>> countries that are economically and militarily completely
>> dependent on you, like Israel?
>
>No. Real friends don't sink the U.S.S. Liberty.
>
>> But why can't you find a middle road between
>> running the world and total isolation? It's ridiculous how you
>> people always insist it has to be one or the other.
>
>That's nonsense, go study your history. But why
>should I bother arguing with you? It's obvious
>that whatever the U.S. does, you're going to hate
>us. Nothing we do pleases you. Have you ever
>had any words of approval for the United States?
>
Naaaah. He's a swamp critter and hates everybody.
the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
A hush fell over the courtroom, injuring six.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105221 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 13:14 |
|
Flame of the West wrote:
>> Basically, both wars
>> were about fighting German militarism and expansionism.
>Actually, Germany didn't start WW1. The Serbian terrorist
state did that, with Russia's help when the Austrians
tried to put an end to Serboterrorism. If Russia hadn't
militarized against Austria, the conflict would not have
escalated into a world war and Germany would not have had
an excuse to get involved.
You seem to have Serbia confused with North Korea, Iran or some other
country currently being hated by the American Right. In fact, the
Serbian government had nothing to do with the group of terrorists ("The
Black Hand") which tried to provoke a war between Austria and Serbia
and succeeded. In fact, Serbia tried to appease Austria, offering all
kinds of apologies and compensations, but the Austrians turned them
down because influential persons in its leadership (among them Conrad
von H=F6tzendorf, the Chief of the Austrian General Staff) wanted a war
with Serbia. Austria knew perfectly well that if there was such a war,
Russia would intervene on the side of Serbia, so it sought assurances
from Germany that it would come to its aid. Despite misgivings about
getting involved in a two-front war (Russia had a defensive pact with
France and Britain), Germany gave such assurances. It can be said,
unequivocally, that Austrians started the war and that Germany, despite
its doubts, gave them the backing they felt they needed to start it.
>> Despite the
> Russian distraction, it really comes down to the western democracies
> resisting anti-democratic aggression. In fact, many historians regard
> the two World Wars as one single war with a breathing pause of 20
> years.
>You might as well add the Cold War to that list. The Western
democracies were threatened with anti-democratic aggression
until fifty years after WW2. It's rather an odd interpretation
of 20th Century European history to regard Germany as the only
anti-democratic aggressor.
The Cold War was not a war; that's why it goes under the nickname "the
Cold War". And it is a fact that the Soviet Union never attacked
Europe. It gained control of eastern Europe because of *being* attacked
by Germany in 1941.
=D6jevind
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105222 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 13:11 |
|
Flame of the West wrote:
> Morgil wrote:
>
>> Who do you think are your "real" friends? Does that mean
>> countries that are economically and militarily completely
>> dependent on you, like Israel?
>
>
> No. Real friends don't sink the U.S.S. Liberty.
So who are the "real friends" you were talking about??
>> But why can't you find a middle road between
>> running the world and total isolation? It's ridiculous how you
>> people always insist it has to be one or the other.
>
>
> That's nonsense, go study your history.
It is not nonsense. You just suggested it in your post
and plenty of other americans have argued that as well.
But why
> should I bother arguing with you? It's obvious
> that whatever the U.S. does, you're going to hate
> us. Nothing we do pleases you.
And there you go again. If I don't approve the current
ways of US foreign policy, but don't think that total
isolation is the answer either, it means that nothing
pleases me. Just as if those were the only possible
alternatives.
Have you ever
> had any words of approval for the United States?
I think you have much better filmmakers then New Zealand.
Morgil
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105224 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 13:23 |
|
Flame of the West wrote:
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>> Basically, both wars
>> were about fighting German militarism and expansionism.
>
>
> Actually, Germany didn't start WW1. The Serbian terrorist
> state did that, with Russia's help when the Austrians
> tried to put an end to Serboterrorism.
Or more presicely, they used the terrorism as an excuse to
settle some old scores and pursuit their imperialist ambitions.
If Russia hadn't
> militarized against Austria, the conflict would not have
> escalated into a world war and Germany would not have had
> an excuse to get involved.
Or if Austria had backed down from annexing Serbia.
Morgil
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105229 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 13:39 |
|
Öjevind Lång wrote:
> Flame of the West wrote:
>>You might as well add the Cold War to that list. The Western
>
> democracies were threatened with anti-democratic aggression
> until fifty years after WW2. It's rather an odd interpretation
> of 20th Century European history to regard Germany as the only
> anti-democratic aggressor.
>
> The Cold War was not a war; that's why it goes under the nickname "the
> Cold War". And it is a fact that the Soviet Union never attacked
> Europe.
Well, exept Finland, but they seemed to have learned from that mistake.
Morgil
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105234 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 14:25 |
|
Öjevind Lång wrote:
> In fact, Serbia tried to appease Austria, offering all
> kinds of apologies and compensations, but the Austrians turned them
> down because influential persons in its leadership (among them Conrad
> von Hötzendorf, the Chief of the Austrian General Staff) wanted a war
> with Serbia. Austria knew perfectly well that if there was such a war,
> Russia would intervene on the side of Serbia, so it sought assurances
> from Germany that it would come to its aid. Despite misgivings about
> getting involved in a two-front war (Russia had a defensive pact with
> France and Britain), Germany gave such assurances. It can be said,
> unequivocally, that Austrians started the war and that Germany, despite
> its doubts, gave them the backing they felt they needed to start it.
I don't deny any of that. Both Germany and Russia were willing
and eager to go to war to support their respective allies, as
were France and England. All of the major powers in Europe
were spoiling for a fight.
> The Cold War was not a war; that's why it goes under the nickname "the
> Cold War". And it is a fact that the Soviet Union never attacked
> Europe. It gained control of eastern Europe because of *being* attacked
> by Germany in 1941.
The Cold War was a war, just not one that was fought in Europe.
Neither side desired to devastate the continent yet again, so
they fought on other battlegrounds in Asia, Africa, etc.
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105235 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 14:35 |
|
Morgil wrote:
> So who are the "real friends" you were talking about??
Western Europe, Canada, Australia/NZ for starters.
I'd have no problem with the U.S. helping any of
them if they were attacked. Our real friends do NOT
include countries with pro-U.S. governments but whose
populations hate our guts.
>>> But why can't you find a middle road between
>>> running the world and total isolation? It's ridiculous how you
>>> people always insist it has to be one or the other.
>>
>> That's nonsense, go study your history.
>
> It is not nonsense. You just suggested it in your post
> and plenty of other americans have argued that as well.
OK, for example, we were openly pro-British from the
start of WW2, even before we got involved. That was
neither running the world nor total isolation. And
as I said just above, our minding our own business
(what you call "isolation") would not exclude us from
helping our friends when they are in trouble.
> And there you go again. If I don't approve the current
> ways of US foreign policy, but don't think that total
> isolation is the answer either, it means that nothing
> pleases me. Just as if those were the only possible
> alternatives.
The totality of your posts throught the years proves
that you've never supported anything the U.S. did.
> Have you ever
>> had any words of approval for the United States?
>
> I think you have much better filmmakers then New Zealand.
You like Star Wars because it is a criticism of U.S.
foreign policy in Vietnam. But I don't mean American
culture, I mean the United States. Has our government
*ever* done anything you really approve of nongrudgingly?
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105242 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 20:31 |
|
Flame of the West kirjoitti viestissä ...
>Morgil wrote:
>> And there you go again. If I don't approve the current
>> ways of US foreign policy, but don't think that total
>> isolation is the answer either, it means that nothing
>> pleases me. Just as if those were the only possible
>> alternatives.
>
>The totality of your posts throught the years proves
>that you've never supported anything the U.S. did.
That's complete nonsense. If I sometimes appear anti-
US, it's only because I mostly deal with fanatic loonies
who badmouth everything and everybody else, but never
see anything wrong with anything that US does.
>> Have you ever
>>> had any words of approval for the United States?
>>
>> I think you have much better filmmakers then New Zealand.
>
>You like Star Wars because it is a criticism of U.S.
>foreign policy in Vietnam.
I hope you're not serious because only a complete moron
would think so.
But I don't mean American
>culture, I mean the United States. Has our government
>*ever* done anything you really approve of nongrudgingly?
Yes. Now can you drop this ad-hominem nonsense and
address the issues instead?
Morgil
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105256 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 02:15 |
|
On 7 Aug 2005 04:14:14 -0700, "Öjevind Lång"
<ojevind.lang [at] bredband.net> wrote:
>
>You seem to have Serbia confused with North Korea, Iran or some other
>country currently being hated by the American Right. In fact, the
>Serbian government had nothing to do with the group of terrorists ("The
>Black Hand") which tried to provoke a war between Austria and Serbia
>and succeeded. In fact, Serbia tried to appease Austria, offering all
>kinds of apologies and compensations,
Well, Serbia kinda was like North Korea, only much less powerful and
not quite so stupid. When they saw what Princip had done, they
backwatered very quickly, but, as you say, Austria would not be
placated. That is one of the problems with state-supported terrorism
-- eventually you take on a stup[id, vindictive opponent. And Austria
wanted to consolidate its hold on the South Slavic states.
> but the Austrians turned them
>down because influential persons in its leadership (among them Conrad
>von Hötzendorf, the Chief of the Austrian General Staff) wanted a war
>with Serbia. Austria knew perfectly well that if there was such a war,
>Russia would intervene on the side of Serbia, so it sought assurances
>from Germany that it would come to its aid. Despite misgivings about
>getting involved in a two-front war (Russia had a defensive pact with
>France and Britain), Germany gave such assurances. It can be said,
>unequivocally, that Austrians started the war and that Germany, despite
>its doubts, gave them the backing they felt they needed to start it.
>
Yeah, but a number in the German government had Bush's and FotW's
"Let's kick some butt" attitude. And there were the profits of the
victor to be had, they thought. Germany sustained the war which
Austria vs Serbia began.
>
>The Cold War was not a war; that's why it goes under the nickname "the
>Cold War". And it is a fact that the Soviet Union never attacked
>Europe.
Twue. twue. (One tries to remember when Russia attacked the rest of
Europe. They always seem to wait for some idiot to attack them.)
the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Are you still here? The message is over. Shoo! Go away!
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105257 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 02:15 |
|
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 08:35:26 -0400, Flame of the West
<spamalot [at] solinas.org> wrote:
>Morgil wrote:
>
>> So who are the "real friends" you were talking about??
>
>Western Europe, Canada, Australia/NZ for starters.
>I'd have no problem with the U.S. helping any of
>them if they were attacked. Our real friends do NOT
>include countries with pro-U.S. governments but whose
>populations hate our guts.
>
Does that include Sardinia?
the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Are you still here? The message is over. Shoo! Go away!
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105258 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 02:15 |
|
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:39:50 +0300, Morgil <morestelx [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> The Cold War was not a war; that's why it goes under the nickname "the
>> Cold War". And it is a fact that the Soviet Union never attacked
>> Europe.
>
>Well, exept Finland, but they seemed to have learned from that mistake.
>
Oh .....
well ---- Finland!
Pah! So they got mired in the Frozen Swamp. Served them right, the
cretins!
the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Are you still here? The message is over. Shoo! Go away!
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105260 ] |
So, 07 August 2005 04:12 |
|
the softrat wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:39:50 +0300, Morgil <morestelx [at] hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>The Cold War was not a war; that's why it goes under the nickname "the
>>>Cold War". And it is a fact that the Soviet Union never attacked
>>>Europe.
>>
>>Well, exept Finland, but they seemed to have learned from that mistake.
>>
>
> Oh .....
>
> well ---- Finland!
>
> Pah! So they got mired in the Frozen Swamp. Served them right, the
> cretins!
Wasn't there a Finnish general once, who, upon being told
the Germans were invading, said: "But there are so many
of them. And we are such a small country. Where will we
bury them all?"
--
"Use what talent you possess: the woods would be very silent if
no birds sang except those that sang best". — Henry Van Dyke
Send POINTless replies to denaldo [at] ePOInTv1.net
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105261 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 04:46 |
|
the softrat wrote:
> Yeah, but a number in the German government had Bush's and FotW's
> "Let's kick some butt" attitude.
Moi? I was agin the first Gulf War, let alone the second.
I'm practically an isolationist. The only butts I would
see kicked are the ones belonging to those who would
threaten us, like Al Qaida and their Taliban and Saudi
backers.
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105262 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 04:48 |
|
Morgil wrote:
> Flame of the West kirjoitti viestissä ...
>
>>Morgil wrote:
>> Has our government
>>*ever* done anything you really approve of nongrudgingly?
>
> Yes.
I'm not convinced. Would you mind giving us an
example, including why Americans are so praiseworthy
in that case? You need not be stinting in your
praise.
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105263 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 05:06 |
|
Flame of the West kirjoitti viestissä ...
>Morgil wrote:
>
>> Flame of the West kirjoitti viestissä ...
>>
>>>Morgil wrote:
>>> Has our government
>>>*ever* done anything you really approve of nongrudgingly?
>>
>> Yes.
>
>I'm not convinced. Would you mind giving us an
>example, including why Americans are so praiseworthy
>in that case? You need not be stinting in your
>praise.
How about if you would give an example when have I ever
critisized America unfairly, or even just failed to acknowledge
something positive about them? It's your argument after all.
Morgil
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105264 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 06:36 |
|
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:48:39 -0400, Flame of the West
<spamalot [at] solinas.org> wrote:
>Morgil wrote:
>
>> Flame of the West kirjoitti viestissä ...
>>
>>>Morgil wrote:
>>> Has our government
>>>*ever* done anything you really approve of nongrudgingly?
>>
>> Yes.
>
>I'm not convinced. Would you mind giving us an
>example, including why Americans are so praiseworthy
>in that case? You need not be stinting in your
>praise.
>
Hey! *I* am a resident and a citizen of the United States and I'm not
sure that *I* could answer the question in the affirmative. (And I
don't believe in 'Affirmative Action' either. It's just another form
of discrimination, however it's 'PC'.)
My Credo
I believe that our government, like all governments, sucks. But a real
democracy is so confused that it allows some freedom of action to the
people living under it more or less by accident. We, the Wise, take
advantage of that freedom. They, the Stupid, do not, and ask for more
government.
EoC
It is true that most other places have governments that suck even
worse than ours.
Most people *love* bad government. That's why they espouse it and
choose to live under it. (cf, 'socialist')
the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Can you look at an aardvark and see nothing funny?
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105265 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 06:41 |
|
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:46:07 -0400, Flame of the West
<spamalot [at] solinas.org> wrote:
>The only butts I would
>see kicked are the ones belonging to those who would
>threaten us, like Al Qaida and their Taliban and Saudi
>backers.
>
>
You do realize, don't you, that the Taliban is just the Students for a
Democratic Society on molto bonza hash? (I think that Mohammed would
be appalled! He was a trader, not a terrorist.)
the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Are you still here? The message is over. Shoo! Go away!
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105277 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 15:04 |
|
Öjevind Lång wrote:
> Flame of the West wrote:
>
>>I wouldn't be too hard on the U.S. and its isolation. In 1914,
> the Brits and the rest of Europe rushed into a completely
> unnecessary and futile war, insisted on fighting it to its
> bloody conclusion despite the fact that they were throwing
> hundreds of thousands of lives away for absolutely nothing,
> and afterwards treated the losing side absurdly unjustly.
> The Communists and Nazis were a direct result of that war.
>
> I know that the idea that it didn't matter who won WWI is very popular
> among some Americans, but I disagree. Basically, both wars
> were about fighting German militarism and expansionism. Despite the
It was a cosy club of imperialists fighting someone who was a latecomer to
the imperial game.
Nothing, but nothing, to do with "German militarism and expansionism". That
was home-front propaganda.
> Russian distraction, it really comes down to the western democracies
> resisting anti-democratic aggression. In fact, many historians regard
> the two World Wars as one single war with a breathing pause of 20
> years.
A century-long war with breathing spaces to fight insurgencies in places
like Iraq in the mid-twenties, where there wouldn't have been an insurgency
if there hadn't been obnoxious imperialist Poms to be insurgent against.
>
> Öjevind
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105278 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 15:10 |
|
Flame of the West wrote:
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>
>> I know that the idea that it didn't matter who won WWI is very popular
>> among some Americans, but I disagree.
>
> I didn't exactly mean that. When I spoke of throwing away
> lives for absolutely nothing, I meant it literally: both
> sides would pour troops into enemy fire knowing full well
> they couldn't take any appreciable real estate. Both
> sides just sat in place killing each others' troops.
>
>> Basically, both wars
>> were about fighting German militarism and expansionism.
>
> Actually, Germany didn't start WW1. The Serbian terrorist
> state did that, with Russia's help when the Austrians
> tried to put an end to Serboterrorism. If Russia hadn't
> militarized against Austria, the conflict would not have
> escalated into a world war and Germany would not have had
> an excuse to get involved.
>
>> Despite the
>> Russian distraction, it really comes down to the western democracies
>> resisting anti-democratic aggression. In fact, many historians regard
>> the two World Wars as one single war with a breathing pause of 20
>> years.
>
> You might as well add the Cold War to that list. The Western
> democracies were threatened with anti-democratic aggression
> until fifty years after WW2. It's rather an odd interpretation
> of 20th Century European history to regard Germany as the only
> anti-democratic aggressor.
Actually, considering the attempts to crackdown on Mark Twain's freedom of
speech, etc, concerning the atrocities in the Phillipines following the US
Army's arrival there, you might consider adding the US to that list.
And considering that the Third Reich took its inspiration for the
concentration camps primarily from the British Empire's use of them in
South Africa, by all means add the British Empire to that list as well.
I can't see that any European's got any right to boast particularly loudly
about their nation's behaviour, except those who had fallen behind in the
power stakes, such as Denmark and Sweden, and didn't have overseas
possessions to brutalize in the way of Great Britain, Belgium, etc.
Wesley Parish
>
>
> -- FotW
>
> Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105281 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 15:20 |
|
denaldo wrote:
> the softrat wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:39:50 +0300, Morgil <morestelx [at] hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>The Cold War was not a war; that's why it goes under the nickname "the
>>>>Cold War". And it is a fact that the Soviet Union never attacked
>>>>Europe.
>>>
>>>Well, exept Finland, but they seemed to have learned from that mistake.
>>>
>>
>> Oh .....
>>
>> well ---- Finland!
>>
>> Pah! So they got mired in the Frozen Swamp. Served them right, the
>> cretins!
>
> Wasn't there a Finnish general once, who, upon being told
> the Germans were invading, said: "But there are so many
> of them. And we are such a small country. Where will we
> bury them all?"
>
The Soviets made a number of huge mistakes attacking Finland. They paid
very little attention to the terrain. They paid even less attention to the
cold-weather needs of their troops. They paid very little attention to the
enemy and its state of preparedness. And they did something even worse -
they'd imprisoned, murdered, and exiled most of their best generals because
their top man was paranoid.
Now if they were geniuses a la Dubya, they would've just sent in their
troops ... Dubya hasn't had any of his generals murdered. By this I
conclude they are just as bright as him, and consequently no threat
whatsoever.
Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105282 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 15:21 |
|
Flame of the West wrote:
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>
>> In fact, Serbia tried to appease Austria, offering all
>> kinds of apologies and compensations, but the Austrians turned them
>> down because influential persons in its leadership (among them Conrad
>> von Hötzendorf, the Chief of the Austrian General Staff) wanted a war
>> with Serbia. Austria knew perfectly well that if there was such a war,
>> Russia would intervene on the side of Serbia, so it sought assurances
>> from Germany that it would come to its aid. Despite misgivings about
>> getting involved in a two-front war (Russia had a defensive pact with
>> France and Britain), Germany gave such assurances. It can be said,
>> unequivocally, that Austrians started the war and that Germany, despite
>> its doubts, gave them the backing they felt they needed to start it.
>
> I don't deny any of that. Both Germany and Russia were willing
> and eager to go to war to support their respective allies, as
> were France and England. All of the major powers in Europe
> were spoiling for a fight.
>
>> The Cold War was not a war; that's why it goes under the nickname "the
>> Cold War". And it is a fact that the Soviet Union never attacked
>> Europe. It gained control of eastern Europe because of *being* attacked
>> by Germany in 1941.
>
> The Cold War was a war, just not one that was fought in Europe.
> Neither side desired to devastate the continent yet again, so
> they fought on other battlegrounds in Asia, Africa, etc.
Precisely.
>
>
> -- FotW
>
> Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105285 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 15:36 |
|
the softrat wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:48:39 -0400, Flame of the West
> <spamalot [at] solinas.org> wrote:
>
>>Morgil wrote:
>>
>>> Flame of the West kirjoitti viestissä ...
>>>
>>>>Morgil wrote:
>>>> Has our government
>>>>*ever* done anything you really approve of nongrudgingly?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>
>>I'm not convinced. Would you mind giving us an
>>example, including why Americans are so praiseworthy
>>in that case? You need not be stinting in your
>>praise.
>>
> Hey! *I* am a resident and a citizen of the United States and I'm not
> sure that *I* could answer the question in the affirmative. (And I
> don't believe in 'Affirmative Action' either. It's just another form
> of discrimination, however it's 'PC'.)
>
> My Credo
>
> I believe that our government, like all governments, sucks. But a real
> democracy is so confused that it allows some freedom of action to the
> people living under it more or less by accident. We, the Wise, take
> advantage of that freedom. They, the Stupid, do not, and ask for more
> government.
>
> EoC
>
> It is true that most other places have governments that suck even
> worse than ours.
>
> Most people *love* bad government. That's why they espouse it and
> choose to live under it. (cf, 'socialist')
>
>
> the softrat
> Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
> mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
> --
> Can you look at an aardvark and see nothing funny?
I was in New Zealand during the eighties when we had the big Nuclear-Free
argument with the US government. The interesting thing was that at the
start, a lot of New Zealanders, being conservative, were on the side of the
US government and pro-nuclear-weapons, until various members of Congress
started bad-mouthing New Zealand. Gratuitously.
During the eighties we were also exposed to the big "anti-American" argument
- the idea that being opposed to various policies of the US government
meant we were fanatical haters of the United States of America and all its
citizens.
I consider nuclear weaponry to be a repudiation of the freedoms and rights
proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution,
because nuclear weaponry make the statement that in sufficient numbers -
which the US and the Russian Federation still possess, and which China is
likely to possess as well - the US president one day will have the right to
murder as many of his fellow citizens as he can, while murdering as many of
his enemies' citizens as he can. As he has the power even now.
So I oppose nuclear weapons. So I oppose their proliferation. etc.
Now to connect that to my supposed fanatical hatred of all US citizens, you
wind up giving nuclear weaponry US citizenship.
It's a funny world we live in, and that is one of the funnier things.
Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105289 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 15:50 |
|
Flame of the West wrote:
>I don't deny any of that. Both Germany and Russia were willing
and eager to go to war to support their respective allies, as
were France and England. All of the major powers in Europe
were spoiling for a fight.
No, not really. Germany was, as I said, hesitant to take on a two-front
war. Despite its thirst for revenge after losing Alsace in 1870, France
was rather dubious too. And Britain was extremely averse to getting
involved in a continental war. It had been British policy ever since
1815 not to get embroiled in wars in Europe; that's where the phrase
"splendid isolation" comes from. What made them decide to declare war
against Germany was Germany's invasion of Belgium, a country whose
independence Britain (like Germany) had undertaken to respect and
protect.
It's true that once war broke out, mobs of people cheered in the
capitals of all the countries involved. They cheered because most of
them had no idea what a major war meant. But their leaders did not
cheer. Sir Edward Grey, the Foreign Minister of Britain, said: "The
lamps are going out all over Europe; we shall not see them lit again in
our life-time." Internally, the German government were rather muted
too. They did want a war, but not this war.
The interesting thing is that is was the senile empires, those that
should have avoided war at any cost - that is to say Russia,
Austria-Hungary and the Osman Empire - that rushed headlong into WWI.
Incidentally, I reject the idealization of Austria that many people buy
into. It was not quite the wienerwaltzing operetta idyll that it is
frequently made out to have been. Czechs, Poles, Romanians, Italians or
others who expressed (no matter how peacefully) a desire for
independence, or for being reunited with their mother country, were
imprisoned. So were radical socialists. So were quite a few perfectly
innocent people on the mere suspicion of being subversives. Also, it
was an extremely corrupt empire - as I said, senile.
>> The Cold War was not a war; that's why it goes under the nickname "the
> Cold War". And it is a fact that the Soviet Union never attacked
> Europe. It gained control of eastern Europe because of *being* attacked
> by Germany in 1941.
>The Cold War was a war, just not one that was fought in Europe.
Neither side desired to devastate the continent yet again, so
they fought on other battlegrounds in Asia, Africa, etc.
Huh? In the first case, I thought we were talking about wars in Europe.
Now you are suddenly talking about various little wars in Africa and
Asia. And various little wars where one side is supported by the US and
the other side by the Soviets still do not amount to one big war, let
alone a world war.
=D6jevind
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105304 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 21:48 |
|
"the softrat" <softrat [at] pobox.com> wrote in message
news:m05df1tucuj2n66ll98vobcejdbiktm37r [at] 4ax.com...
> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:39:50 +0300, Morgil <morestelx [at] hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>
>>> The Cold War was not a war; that's why it goes under the nickname "the
>>> Cold War". And it is a fact that the Soviet Union never attacked
>>> Europe.
>>
>>Well, exept Finland, but they seemed to have learned from that mistake.
>>
> Oh .....
>
> well ---- Finland!
>
> Pah! So they got mired in the Frozen Swamp. Served them right, the
> cretins!
>
And I am sure that Hungary, Czechoslovbakia, and Poland only recently were
named European countries. I am absolutely certain that Czechoslovakia was
not in Europe in 1968. I think maybe they were part of Africa or South
America (it doesn't matter really. I always get thsoe two places mixed up).
>
> the softrat
> Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
> mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
> --
> Are you still here? The message is over. Shoo! Go away!
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105308 ] |
Mo, 08 August 2005 22:32 |
|
denaldo <denaldo [at] ePOINTv1.net> wrote:
> Wasn't there a Finnish general once, who, upon being told
> the Germans were invading, said: "But there are so many
> of them. And we are such a small country. Where will we
> bury them all?"
Finland was an ally of Germany from 1941-1944.
Staso
--
Schizophrenic? I'm bleeding quadrophenic.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105312 ] |
Di, 09 August 2005 00:05 |
|
On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:32:17 +0200, Staso.Spamfalle [at] gmx.net (Michael
Starosta) wrote:
>
>Finland was an ally of Germany from 1941-1944.
>
>Staso
You might have been too if the USSR was all over *your* tail!
the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
When you're talking about me, keep your mouth shut.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105313 ] |
Di, 09 August 2005 00:40 |
|
Morgil wrote:
>>>>Has our government
>>>>*ever* done anything you really approve of nongrudgingly?
>>>
>>>Yes.
>>
>>I'm not convinced. Would you mind giving us an
>>example, including why Americans are so praiseworthy
>>in that case? You need not be stinting in your
>>praise.
>
> How about if you would give an example when have I ever
> critisized America unfairly, or even just failed to acknowledge
> something positive about them? It's your argument after all.
*LOL!* You can't do it, can you?
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105314 ] |
Di, 09 August 2005 00:42 |
|
the softrat wrote:
> My Credo
>
> I believe that our government, like all governments, sucks. But a real
> democracy is so confused that it allows some freedom of action to the
> people living under it more or less by accident. We, the Wise, take
> advantage of that freedom. They, the Stupid, do not, and ask for more
> government.
>
> EoC
>
> It is true that most other places have governments that suck even
> worse than ours.
>
> Most people *love* bad government. That's why they espouse it and
> choose to live under it. (cf, 'socialist')
This kind of thing is why you are My Hero.
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105320 ] |
Di, 09 August 2005 01:17 |
|
Flame of the West wrote:
> Morgil wrote:
>>> I'm not convinced. Would you mind giving us an
>>> example, including why Americans are so praiseworthy
>>> in that case? You need not be stinting in your
>>> praise.
>>
>>
>> How about if you would give an example when have I ever
>> critisized America unfairly, or even just failed to acknowledge
>> something positive about them? It's your argument after all.
>
>
> *LOL!* You can't do it, can you?
Easily. But you said that my posting history shows that
I critisize US no matter what they do. So first show an
example or two where I have critisized them unfairly.
I'm not gonna post compliments just to humor you if you
keep refusing to back up your claims.
Morgil
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105321 ] |
Di, 09 August 2005 01:26 |
|
Flame of the West wrote:
> the softrat wrote:
>> Most people *love* bad government. That's why they espouse it and
>> choose to live under it. (cf, 'socialist')
>
>
> This kind of thing is why you are My Hero.
Ooh! I think I can hear the song of the Flower-Children
on the background there...
Morgil
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105332 ] |
Di, 09 August 2005 12:50 |
|
the softrat <softrat [at] pobox.com> wrote:
> >Finland was an ally of Germany from 1941-1944.
>
> You might have been too if the USSR was all over *your* tail!
I didn't critizise Finland. After all, my country started WW2.
Staso
--
Schizophrenic? I'm bleeding quadrophenic.
|
|
|
| Re: JRRT and the Great Depression [message #105343 ] |
Di, 09 August 2005 19:45 |
|
On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:50:46 +0200, Staso.Spamfalle [at] gmx.net (Michael
Starosta) wrote:
>the softrat <softrat [at] pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> >Finland was an ally of Germany from 1941-1944.
>>
>> You might have been too if the USSR was all over *your* tail!
>
>I didn't critizise Finland. After all, my country started WW2.
>
>Staso
You are Japanese?
the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
We knock at Death's door yelling: "I'm here!!" Then... we
realise our folly.
|
|
|
Gehe zu:
aktuelle Zeit: Sa Mai 26 13:16:53 CEST 2012
Insgesamt benötigte Zeit, um die Seite zu erzeugen: 0,08291 Sekunden |
