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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Saruman meets Frodo for the first time...
| Saruman meets Frodo for the first time... [message #99430] |
Di, 02 August 2005 18:31 |
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.... in 'The Scouring of the Shire'. Saruman tries to stab Frodo (for
destroying the One Ring, I think), and when the Shire-folk tackle him to
the ground and are about to kill him, Frodo shows great clemency:
-----
"No, Sam!" said Frodo. "Do not kill him even now. For he has not hurt
me. And in any case I do not wish him to be slain in this evil mood. He
was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our
hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would
still spare him, in the hope that he may find it."
Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look
in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. "You have grown,
Halfing,' he said. 'Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and
cruel. You have robbed my revenge of its sweetness, I now I must go
hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! [...]"
Close as I can figure, these seems to be an error on Tolkien's part, for
Saruman had never met Frodo before, nor likely had any detailed account
of him -- so how could he know if Frodo had grown or not? Perhaps Frodo
was always very wise -- in fact I think he probably was. Even though he
once said it was a pity that Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the
chance, that was before he ever encountered Gollum, and saw what a
pitable creature he was. It was a view espoused far from any real
possibility of it happening, so I do not think we can say that Frodo was
once vengeful, and now merciful.
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| Re: Saruman meets Frodo for the first time... [message #99432 ] |
Di, 02 August 2005 18:47 |
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"Chris Wright" <cjwright79 [at] shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:cdNHe.97230$%K2.79867 [at] pd7tw1no...
> ... in 'The Scouring of the Shire'. Saruman tries to stab Frodo (for
> destroying the One Ring, I think), and when the Shire-folk tackle him to
> the ground and are about to kill him, Frodo shows great clemency:
>
> -----
>
> "No, Sam!" said Frodo. "Do not kill him even now. For he has not hurt
> me. And in any case I do not wish him to be slain in this evil mood. He
> was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our
> hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would
> still spare him, in the hope that he may find it."
>
> Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look
> in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. "You have grown,
> Halfing,' he said. 'Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and
> cruel. You have robbed my revenge of its sweetness, I now I must go
> hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! [...]"
>
>
> Close as I can figure, these seems to be an error on Tolkien's part, for
> Saruman had never met Frodo before, nor likely had any detailed account
> of him -- so how could he know if Frodo had grown or not? Perhaps Frodo
> was always very wise -- in fact I think he probably was. Even though he
> once said it was a pity that Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the
> chance, that was before he ever encountered Gollum, and saw what a
> pitable creature he was. It was a view espoused far from any real
> possibility of it happening, so I do not think we can say that Frodo was
> once vengeful, and now merciful.
Interesting thought. But Saruman had plenty of time to research his
downfall, find the causes, and thereby learn of Frodo in the process.
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| Re: Saruman meets Frodo for the first time... [message #99434 ] |
Di, 02 August 2005 18:55 |
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"Chris Wright" <cjwright79 [at] shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:cdNHe.97230$%K2.79867 [at] pd7tw1no...
> ... in 'The Scouring of the Shire'. Saruman tries to stab Frodo (for
> destroying the One Ring, I think), and when the Shire-folk tackle him to
> the ground and are about to kill him, Frodo shows great clemency:
>
> -----
>
> "No, Sam!" said Frodo. "Do not kill him even now. For he has not hurt me.
> And in any case I do not wish him to be slain in this evil mood. He was
> great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands
> against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare
> him, in the hope that he may find it."
>
> Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look in
> his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. "You have grown,
> Halfing,' he said. 'Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and
> cruel. You have robbed my revenge of its sweetness, I now I must go hence
> in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! [...]"
>
>
> Close as I can figure, these seems to be an error on Tolkien's part, for
> Saruman had never met Frodo before, nor likely had any detailed account of
> him -- so how could he know if Frodo had grown or not? Perhaps Frodo was
> always very wise -- in fact I think he probably was. Even though he once
> said it was a pity that Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance,
> that was before he ever encountered Gollum, and saw what a pitable
> creature he was. It was a view espoused far from any real possibility of
> it happening, so I do not think we can say that Frodo was once vengeful,
> and now merciful.
Well they had met a little earlier when they met him on the road to
rivendell (i think it was in Hollin)
But i think saruman would have known quite a bit about Frodo, he did have
many spies around the shire
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| Re: Saruman meets Frodo for the first time... [message #102420 ] |
Do, 04 August 2005 06:10 |
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[Adding r.a.b.t; this could be of interest there, too.]
Quoth Chris Wright <cjwright79 [at] shaw.ca> in article
<cdNHe.97230$%K2.79867 [at] pd7tw1no>:
> ... in 'The Scouring of the Shire'. Saruman tries to stab Frodo (for
> destroying the One Ring, I think),
I don't think so, though I don't have proof. I don't think that
Saruman was crushed by the destruction of the Ring. Certainly he had
wanted it for himself, but I think he would have been far happier to
see it destroyed than to see it give anyone else domination of
Middle-earth.
If Saruman had not attacked Rohan (nor angered the Ents), he might
have been in a good position to conquer both Rohan and Gondor after
their war with Mordor (and after the Ring's destruction). So I would
guess that his anger was rather at being "defeated" yet again (this
time by a bunch of hobbits!), and his "vengeance" was aimed at the
obvious leader of those who had humiliated him this final time. Or
perhaps even more, he may have simply felt jealous of the victory of
"good", and felt painfully aware that had he not fallen, he would have
been one of its chief leaders. (There's also the suicidal nature of
his act: killing Frodo while surrounded by a troop of armed hobbits
would have meant almost certain death.)
In Frodo, Saruman may have seen not only an ally of Gandalf's, but a
person not so different from what he himself once had been. So in
attempting to kill Frodo, he may have been trying to demonstrate (to
himself, even!) that the victory of "good" was anything but perfect
(and never complete). He failed, of course. But in the end, his
prediction of Frodo's future fate was pretty much on the mark: he
would have been better off just waiting.
[Quoting Saruman's response to Frodo's mercy:]
> Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look
> in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. "You have grown,
> Halfing,' he said. 'Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and
> cruel. You have robbed my revenge of its sweetness, I now I must go
> hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! [...]"
> Close as I can figure, these seems to be an error on Tolkien's part,
> for Saruman had never met Frodo before,
As someone else has pointed out, Saruman did meet Frodo on the road
west from Isengard. But that doesn't invalidate your point: I'm not
sure that Frodo even spoke during that encounter (certainly not enough
to have left a strong impression), and in any case I suspect that his
"moral growth" had mostly occurred before he left Gondor.
Perhaps, though, Saruman was simply recognizing that remarkably few
hobbits showed anything close to Frodo's wisdom here. It wouldn't be
unreasonable to guess that Frodo's journey and experiences had
something to do with that. (For that matter, Saruman doesn't specify
_when_ Frodo had "grown". :) It could have been when he was eight
years old! But that doesn't seem to be Saruman's intent here, I'll
agree.) In general, I think I've seen these comments as simply a
recognition by Saruman that Frodo truly had risen to the elite ranks
of the wise, however he got there.
> Perhaps Frodo was always very wise -- in fact I think he probably
> was. Even though he once said it was a pity that Bilbo didn't kill
> Gollum when he had the chance, that was before he ever encountered
> Gollum, and saw what a pitable creature he was. It was a view
> espoused far from any real possibility of it happening, so I do not
> think we can say that Frodo was once vengeful, and now merciful.
But I don't think that post-quest Frodo would have made such a comment
about anyone or anything. He had felt his own deep failure and seen
his share of redemption (for both himself and Gollum).
I think that Frodo was probably always quite wise (especially for a
hobbit: they seem to be rather practical and uncomplicated folks), but
the level of wisdom that he showed in his comments to Saruman was
something more, something truly exceptional. (This guy just tried to
kill him, and Frodo hardly even seems bothered: he still manages to
sound like the Dali Lama.)
Steuard Jensen
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| Re: Saruman meets Frodo for the first time... [message #102425 ] |
Do, 04 August 2005 18:30 |
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>
> As someone else has pointed out, Saruman did meet Frodo on the road
> west from Isengard. But that doesn't invalidate your point: I'm not
> sure that Frodo even spoke during that encounter (certainly not enough
> to have left a strong impression), and in any case I suspect that his
> "moral growth" had mostly occurred before he left Gondor.
Saruman (depending on how skilled he was with it) may have been able to use
the Palantir to observe the Hobbits/Frodo.
Also I dont think he needed to have 'met' Frodo before to realise that Frodo
has grown a lot (maybe even the effects of the morgul-knife injury were
apparent to Saruman) maybe he is just comparing what he believes Hobbits to
be to the way Frodo behaves at the end of LOTR
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| Re: Saruman meets Frodo for the first time... [message #105162 ] |
Fr, 05 August 2005 13:03 |
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Dan Leach wrote:
>
>
>>
>> As someone else has pointed out, Saruman did meet Frodo on the road
>> west from Isengard. But that doesn't invalidate your point: I'm not
>> sure that Frodo even spoke during that encounter (certainly not enough
>> to have left a strong impression), and in any case I suspect that his
>> "moral growth" had mostly occurred before he left Gondor.
>
>
> Saruman (depending on how skilled he was with it) may have been able to
> use the Palantir to observe the Hobbits/Frodo.
> Also I dont think he needed to have 'met' Frodo before to realise that
> Frodo has grown a lot (maybe even the effects of the morgul-knife injury
Now that's an interesting point. I don't think anyone's yet pointed _that_
_one_ out. If Gandalf could see the effects of the Morgul-knife of Frodo,
then everyone of an equal spiritual status or recently fallen from such,
could see it.
If Frodo's incorporated that damage into his psyche, and Saruman has
rejected the damage to his psyche caused by the utter failure of his plots
and plans by refusing to aid in rebuilding what he wrecked and ruined, then
his statement is as much a confession of his own failure and ruin as it is
of Frodo's spiritual nobility.
It seems to be the only one he's ready to make, and he doesn't get to enjoy
even that for very long, either.
Wesley Parish
> were apparent to Saruman) maybe he is just comparing what he believes
> Hobbits to be to the way Frodo behaves at the end of LOTR
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well." "Well, you tonight. And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home. I trust you with a tender silence." I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word. I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
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