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Science Fiction » alt.startrek » List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers
| List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75200] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 00:54 |
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Here's a list of TOS StarFleet officers who deliberately did bad or
stupid things:
Captain Tracy (violated Prime Directive)
Commodore Stocker (incompetent to command Enterprise)
Lt. Valeris (conspired against Federation)
Admiral Cartwright (conspired against Federation)
Lt. Commander Finney (tried to frame Kirk)
Commodore Stone (willing to coverup Kirk's alleged crime)
I omitted those who did bad things thru no fault of their own, like
Captain Garth of Azar, who was mentally ill, or Commodore Matt Decker,
who had an apparent nervous breakdown.
Any others?
--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75201 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 01:18 |
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On 09 Jul 2005, the world was enlightened by Steven L.'s opinion about...
> Here's a list of TOS StarFleet officers who deliberately did bad or
> stupid things:
>
> Captain Tracy (violated Prime Directive)
If violating the Prime Suggestion makes one bad, add James T. Kirk to the
list. Besides, Kirk violated a bunch of Fleet regs and stole a starship.
> Commodore Stocker (incompetent to command Enterprise)
> Lt. Valeris (conspired against Federation)
> Admiral Cartwright (conspired against Federation)
Colonel West (conspired against Federation)
> Lt. Commander Finney (tried to frame Kirk)
Finney should be considered mentally ill like Garth or Decker.
> Commodore Stone (willing to coverup Kirk's alleged crime)
>
> I omitted those who did bad things thru no fault of their own, like
> Captain Garth of Azar, who was mentally ill, or Commodore Matt Decker,
> who had an apparent nervous breakdown.
>
> Any others?
>
>
kev
--
Civilization. An organized system of alternatives to the stone age -
CJCherryh.
The Eeeevil Cabal's Nine of Spades.
Wickeddoll's on-demand übernerd.
"Kirk and Spock are heterosexual and nothing but - and that's the truth.
Period. End of Story." - ToolPackinMama, 21.06.2005
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75202 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 01:24 |
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"Steven L." <sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:SAYze.1342$dU3.212 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Here's a list of TOS StarFleet officers who deliberately did bad or stupid
> things:
>
> Captain Tracy (violated Prime Directive)
> Commodore Stocker (incompetent to command Enterprise)
> Lt. Valeris (conspired against Federation)
> Admiral Cartwright (conspired against Federation)
> Lt. Commander Finney (tried to frame Kirk)
> Commodore Stone (willing to coverup Kirk's alleged crime)
>
> I omitted those who did bad things thru no fault of their own, like
> Captain Garth of Azar, who was mentally ill, or Commodore Matt Decker, who
> had an apparent nervous breakdown.
>
> Any others?
Ambassador Fox(Forced Enterprise into middle of a war)
Commander Hudson(sided with Maquis)
Commander Eddington(sided with Maquis)
Captain Merik(betrayed his crew)
Admiral Jamison(violated Prime Directive)
Commander Spock(hijacked Enterprise)
>
>
> --
> Steven D. Litvintchouk
> Email: sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net
>
> Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75203 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 01:25 |
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Steven L. on Starfleet officer "bad apples":
Any others?
In "Space Seed," doesn't the historian, Lieutenant McGivers, fall in
love with Khan and help release all the eugenically-engineered captives
from custody on the ENTERPRISE?
I believe she's facing court-martial, but she decides to accompany
Khan into exile instead.
(Can a Starfleet officer--or even enlisted rank--do this, escape
legal consequences by just "leaving"? How does Kirk explain her
"disappearance" from his crew, anyway?)
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75204 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 01:32 |
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CrimsnKid6 wrote:
> Steven L. on Starfleet officer "bad apples":
>
> Any others?
>
> In "Space Seed," doesn't the historian, Lieutenant McGivers, fall in
> love with Khan and help release all the eugenically-engineered captives
> from custody on the ENTERPRISE?
>
> I believe she's facing court-martial, but she decides to accompany
> Khan into exile instead.
>
> (Can a Starfleet officer--or even enlisted rank--do this, escape
> legal consequences by just "leaving"? How does Kirk explain her
> "disappearance" from his crew, anyway?)
She didn't just walk out, Kirk gave her the choice of leaving
or taking a court martial. As for how he wrote it up, who knows?
Probably just omitted any mention of wrongdoing and put her
down as having resigned. Kirk wasn't above faking log entries
when he felt like it.
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75205 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 01:43 |
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RageForTheMachine expanded the *parameters* of the question:
Ambassador Fox(Forced Enterprise into middle of a war)
An ambassador's a Federation official, but not actually a Starfleet
member.
Commander Hudson(sided with Maquis)
Commander Eddington(sided with Maquis)
Well, the original question was only about original "Trek" series
characters--but obviously Ensign Ro Laren falls into this category too.
Captain Merik(betrayed his crew)
Merrick was a spaceship commander, but not a starship captain--he
"washed out" of Starfleet Academy, didn't he?
Admiral Jamison(violated Prime Directive)
Commander Spock(hijacked Enterprise)
Admiral Kirk also hijacked the ENTERPRISE, along with several
accomplices, notably Commander Montgomery Scott who sabotaged the
engines of the U.S.S. EXCELSIOR, apparently a SWAT team starship.
So now Kirk's a "bad guy" too--not to mention the Prime Directive
violations...
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75206 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 01:44 |
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RageForTheMachine wrote:
> "Steven L." <sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
> news:SAYze.1342$dU3.212 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>>Here's a list of TOS StarFleet officers who deliberately did bad or stupid
>>things:
>>
>>Captain Tracy (violated Prime Directive)
>>Commodore Stocker (incompetent to command Enterprise)
>>Lt. Valeris (conspired against Federation)
>>Admiral Cartwright (conspired against Federation)
>>Lt. Commander Finney (tried to frame Kirk)
>>Commodore Stone (willing to coverup Kirk's alleged crime)
>>
>>I omitted those who did bad things thru no fault of their own, like
>>Captain Garth of Azar, who was mentally ill, or Commodore Matt Decker, who
>>had an apparent nervous breakdown.
>>
>>Any others?
>
>
> Ambassador Fox(Forced Enterprise into middle of a war)
> Commander Hudson(sided with Maquis)
> Commander Eddington(sided with Maquis)
> Captain Merik(betrayed his crew)
Captain Merik was not in Starfleet. He was washed out of the Academy
and joined the merchant marine.
--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75208 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 03:26 |
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Graham Kennedy on resignation from Starfleet:
> (Can a Starfleet officer--or even enlisted rank--do this, escape
> legal consequences by just "leaving"? How does Kirk explain her
> "disappearance" from his crew, anyway?)
She didn't just walk out, Kirk gave her the choice of leaving
or taking a court martial. As for how he wrote it up, who knows?
Probably just omitted any mention of wrongdoing and put her
down as having resigned. Kirk wasn't above faking log entries
when he felt like it.
Well, normally a Starfleet member would be committed for a certain
length of service, I'd assume--probably at least five years if assigned
to a "five-year mission."
However, given the tenuous contact with Starfleet Command shown in
the original "Trek" series, it's possible that a starship captain could
have wide latitude in this area--Kirk may have had the authority to
allow Lieutenant McGivers to resign under "special circumstances."
Additionally, Kirk doesn't seem to think that her job (historian) is
particularly important--or maybe he figures he can do it himself (he
purportedly likes studying history), just as Spock "doubles" as first
officer and science officer.
Whether being the mate of a brilliant egomaniac on an untamed,
barely livable planet is better than being court-martialed, who knows?
She does it for love (or at least infatuation) anyway...
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75212 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 05:26 |
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kev wrote:
> On 09 Jul 2005, the world was enlightened by Steven L.'s opinion about...
>
>
>>Here's a list of TOS StarFleet officers who deliberately did bad or
>>stupid things:
>>
>>Captain Tracy (violated Prime Directive)
>
>
> If violating the Prime Suggestion makes one bad, add James T. Kirk to the
> list. Besides, Kirk violated a bunch of Fleet regs and stole a starship.
I would add that Kirk also willfully destroyed Federation property when
he blew up the Enterprise.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75213 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 05:35 |
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Ragnar <rworkss [at] comsouth.net> wrote in
news:Ku-dnfnbVsbzCE3fRVn-jg [at] giganews.com:
> kev wrote:
>> On 09 Jul 2005, the world was enlightened by Steven L.'s opinion
>> about...
>>
>>
>>>Here's a list of TOS StarFleet officers who deliberately did bad or
>>>stupid things:
>>>
>>>Captain Tracy (violated Prime Directive)
>>
>>
>> If violating the Prime Suggestion makes one bad, add James T. Kirk to
>> the list. Besides, Kirk violated a bunch of Fleet regs and stole a
>> starship.
>
> I would add that Kirk also willfully destroyed Federation property
> when he blew up the Enterprise.
And by so doing stopped it from falling into enemy hands.
--
---
Have Fun
Night Spirit
The yellow jester does not play
But gently pulls the strings
And smiles as the puppets dance
In the court of the crimson king.
Blog: http://www.livejournal.com/~hipdale/
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75214 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 05:39 |
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On 09 Jul 2005, the world was enlightened by Nightspirit's opinion about...
> Ragnar <rworkss [at] comsouth.net> wrote in
> news:Ku-dnfnbVsbzCE3fRVn-jg [at] giganews.com:
>
>> kev wrote:
>>> On 09 Jul 2005, the world was enlightened by Steven L.'s opinion
>>> about...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Here's a list of TOS StarFleet officers who deliberately did bad or
>>>>stupid things:
>>>>
>>>>Captain Tracy (violated Prime Directive)
>>>
>>>
>>> If violating the Prime Suggestion makes one bad, add James T. Kirk to
>>> the list. Besides, Kirk violated a bunch of Fleet regs and stole a
>>> starship.
>>
>> I would add that Kirk also willfully destroyed Federation property
>> when he blew up the Enterprise.
>
> And by so doing stopped it from falling into enemy hands.
>
But he wouldn't have needed to if he hadn't stolen it in the the first
place.
kev
--
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. -
Mario Andretti
The Eeeevil Cabal's Nine of Spades.
Wickeddoll's on-demand übernerd.
"Kirk and Spock are heterosexual and nothing but - and that's the truth.
Period. End of Story." - ToolPackinMama, 21.06.2005
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75215 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 08:18 |
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"CrimsnKid6" <CrimsnKid6 [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120958797.908363.184280 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Whether being the mate of a brilliant egomaniac on an untamed,
> barely livable planet is better than being court-martialed, who knows?
> She does it for love (or at least infatuation) anyway...
> L.L.A.P.,
> --C.K.
But you have to remember, Ceti Alpha V was a paradise until Ceti Alpha VI
exploded, six months after Khan was exiled there, so paradise with a
brilliant egomaniac...
--
"Is it a Stockbroker? Is it a Quantity Surveyor? Is it a Church Warden? No!
It's BICYCLE REPAIR MAN!"
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75217 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 08:43 |
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James Allen Kynes on Ceti Alpha V:
But you have to remember, Ceti Alpha V was a paradise until Ceti Alpha
VI
exploded, six months after Khan was exiled there, so paradise with a
brilliant egomaniac...
Well, IIRC it was never described as a "paradise," just a "chance,"
and Khan himself warned Lieutenant McGivers (as she pondered her
decision) that "It will be a struggle even to survive at first."
Even with eugenically-enhanced colonizers, a totally raw, unsettled
planet isn't going to be "paradise" for quite a while, although the
potential may be there--the planet would be barely livable to start
with.
Of course, once its orbit changed it then became actually unlivable
for normal humans like McGivers--and even only a handful of the
*superhumans* had managed to survive until the beginning of "The Wrath
of Khan."
I can understand Khan being somewhat upset with Kirk for never
*checking back* on Ceti Alpha V--I'd think that the destruction of Ceti
Alpha VI would've been mentioned in some Starfleet astronomical
reports, which Spock and/or Chekov should've read and brought to Kirk's
attention.
But then, the guy was always busy...
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75218 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 11:30 |
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CrimsnKid6 wrote:
> Graham Kennedy on resignation from Starfleet:
>
>
>>(Can a Starfleet officer--or even enlisted rank--do this, escape
>>legal consequences by just "leaving"? How does Kirk explain her
>>"disappearance" from his crew, anyway?)
>
>
>
>
> She didn't just walk out, Kirk gave her the choice of leaving
> or taking a court martial. As for how he wrote it up, who knows?
> Probably just omitted any mention of wrongdoing and put her
> down as having resigned. Kirk wasn't above faking log entries
> when he felt like it.
>
>
> Well, normally a Starfleet member would be committed for a certain
> length of service, I'd assume--probably at least five years if assigned
> to a "five-year mission."
I don't see any evidence of that. There are examples of
Starfleet officers who simply resign and walk out of the
door right then and there - Worf did that in Redemption,
Wesley did it in Journey's End. I don't know that I've
ever heard mention of a person serving out a specific
term.
> However, given the tenuous contact with Starfleet Command shown in
> the original "Trek" series, it's possible that a starship captain could
> have wide latitude in this area--Kirk may have had the authority to
> allow Lieutenant McGivers to resign under "special circumstances."
> Additionally, Kirk doesn't seem to think that her job (historian) is
> particularly important--or maybe he figures he can do it himself (he
> purportedly likes studying history), just as Spock "doubles" as first
> officer and science officer.
>
> Whether being the mate of a brilliant egomaniac on an untamed,
> barely livable planet is better than being court-martialed, who knows?
> She does it for love (or at least infatuation) anyway...
That's a decision only she could make I guess.
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75222 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 14:08 |
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Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75224 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 16:24 |
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in article 1120977789.687466.275760 [at] g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, CrimsnKid6
at CrimsnKid6 [at] aol.com wrote on 7/9/05 11:43 PM:
> Well, IIRC it was never described as a "paradise," just a "chance,"
> and Khan himself warned Lieutenant McGivers (as she pondered her
> decision) that "It will be a struggle even to survive at first."
Mr. Spock, our heading
takes us near the Ceti Alpha star system.
Quite correct, Captain.
Planet number five there is habitable,
although a bit savage, somewhat inhospitable.
No more than Australia's Botany Bay colony was at the beginning.
Those men went on to tame a continent, Mr. Khan.
Can you tame a world?
It will be difficult.
A struggle at first,
even to stay alive, to find food.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75225 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 16:53 |
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Well, Scotty sabotaging the Excelsior like that in Search for Spock won't
win him any medals. Especially since it was in the name of Kirk
commandeering the Enterprise with other top officers. The cause was a noble
one.
"Steven L." <sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:SAYze.1342$dU3.212 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Here's a list of TOS StarFleet officers who deliberately did bad or
> stupid things:
>
> Captain Tracy (violated Prime Directive)
> Commodore Stocker (incompetent to command Enterprise)
> Lt. Valeris (conspired against Federation)
> Admiral Cartwright (conspired against Federation)
> Lt. Commander Finney (tried to frame Kirk)
> Commodore Stone (willing to coverup Kirk's alleged crime)
>
> I omitted those who did bad things thru no fault of their own, like
> Captain Garth of Azar, who was mentally ill, or Commodore Matt Decker,
> who had an apparent nervous breakdown.
>
> Any others?
>
>
> --
> Steven D. Litvintchouk
> Email: sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net
>
> Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75226 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 20:13 |
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"Ragnar" <rworkss [at] comsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Ku-dnfnbVsbzCE3fRVn-jg [at] giganews.com...
> kev wrote:
>> On 09 Jul 2005, the world was enlightened by Steven L.'s opinion about...
>>
>>
>>>Here's a list of TOS StarFleet officers who deliberately did bad or
>>>stupid things:
>>>
>>>Captain Tracy (violated Prime Directive)
>>
>>
>> If violating the Prime Suggestion makes one bad, add James T. Kirk to the
>> list. Besides, Kirk violated a bunch of Fleet regs and stole a starship.
>
> I would add that Kirk also willfully destroyed Federation property when he
> blew up the Enterprise.
What good is being an Admiral if you can't blow up a starship or two? :-)
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75227 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 21:11 |
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AMIN8Rfsk with (apparently) *direct quotes*:
> Well, IIRC it was never described as a "paradise," just a "chance,"
> and Khan himself warned Lieutenant McGivers (as she pondered her
> decision) that "It will be a struggle even to survive at first."
Mr. Spock, our heading
takes us near the Ceti Alpha star system.
Quite correct, Captain.
Planet number five there is habitable,
although a bit savage, somewhat inhospitable.
No more than Australia's Botany Bay colony was at the beginning.
Those men went on to tame a continent, Mr. Khan.
Can you tame a world?
It will be difficult.
A struggle at first,
even to stay alive, to find food.
Okay, I'd say that I got it 90-95%, just going "off the top of my
head," from memory of the episode--that's good enough for me.
And I still think that there should have been some Starfleet
astronomical data about the destruction of Ceti Alpha VI (and the
effect on the planetary system) that Spock or Chekov would've relayed
to Kirk...
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75228 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 21:31 |
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Graham Kennedy on futuristic military enlistment:
I don't see any evidence of that. There are examples of
Starfleet officers who simply resign and walk out of the
door right then and there - Worf did that in Redemption,
Wesley did it in Journey's End. I don't know that I've
ever heard mention of a person serving out a specific
term.
It may be that a career officer can resign at will after a certain
period of service, but I would say that in the original "Trek" series
it would be very difficult to maintain a "five-year mission" if those
involved weren't legally committed to at least five years of service.
In Worf's case, Picard as his commanding officer likely had the
latitude to accept his immediate resignation--or Worf may already have
served enough time to be able to resign at will, as long as it's
peacetime anyway.
Wesley Crusher was an entirely different situation, but what can
Starfleet do when one of its officers evolves into a superior, more
powerful life form? What if Amanda ("True Q") had been a member of
Starfleet when she'd discovered she was a Q life form?
Picard probably wasn't in position to allow Wesley's resignation
(IIRC Wesley wasn't permanently assigned to the ENTERPRISE then), but
he could report to Starfleet that one of its officers "has evolved into
a Traveler" and henceforth wouldn't be serving anymore.
But a military force in which any member serving can resign at any
time? That doesn't sound practical or plausible to me, now or in the
23rd/24th century...
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75229 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 21:47 |
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CrimsnKid6 wrote:
> Graham Kennedy on futuristic military enlistment:
>
> I don't see any evidence of that. There are examples of
> Starfleet officers who simply resign and walk out of the
> door right then and there - Worf did that in Redemption,
> Wesley did it in Journey's End. I don't know that I've
> ever heard mention of a person serving out a specific
> term.
>
> It may be that a career officer can resign at will after a certain
> period of service, but I would say that in the original "Trek" series
> it would be very difficult to maintain a "five-year mission" if those
> involved weren't legally committed to at least five years of service.
And yet Kirk expected that women just leave the
service when they get married in Who Mourns for
Adonais.
> In Worf's case, Picard as his commanding officer likely had the
> latitude to accept his immediate resignation--or Worf may already have
> served enough time to be able to resign at will, as long as it's
> peacetime anyway.
> Wesley Crusher was an entirely different situation, but what can
> Starfleet do when one of its officers evolves into a superior, more
> powerful life form? What if Amanda ("True Q") had been a member of
> Starfleet when she'd discovered she was a Q life form?
>
> Picard probably wasn't in position to allow Wesley's resignation
> (IIRC Wesley wasn't permanently assigned to the ENTERPRISE then), but
> he could report to Starfleet that one of its officers "has evolved into
> a Traveler" and henceforth wouldn't be serving anymore.
Wesley resigned well before that happened.
Put it this way; rather than just make excuses as to
why the multiple examples of people resigning don't
actually count, can you suggest one single example of
a person who wanted to leave Starfleet and couldn't?
Can you name any single example of anybody in Starfleet
who mentioned that they were serving a fixed term?
Anything at all like that? The only examples I can
think of are some of the Maquis on Voyager, and that
was always said to be a limitation only because of
the long journey home.
It seems to me that all the evidence we do have points
to personnel being able to leave anytime they want.
> But a military force in which any member serving can resign at any
> time? That doesn't sound practical or plausible to me, now or in the
> 23rd/24th century...
Don't see why not. The average Starfleeter seems to regard
it as a lifestyle choice more than a job to be done for
a few years.
And they can certainly take only the most dedicated; with
maybe ten thousand ships Starfleet probably has no more than
about twenty or thirty million personnel even counting the
bases and such. That's an absolutely tiny percentage of the
population, so they can afford to take only those who truly
want to stay.
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75230 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 22:06 |
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"CrimsnKid6" <CrimsnKid6 [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1121022677.125904.6880 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> AMIN8Rfsk with (apparently) *direct quotes*:
>
> > Well, IIRC it was never described as a "paradise," just a "chance,"
> > and Khan himself warned Lieutenant McGivers (as she pondered her
> > decision) that "It will be a struggle even to survive at first."
>
>
> Mr. Spock, our heading
> takes us near the Ceti Alpha star system.
> Quite correct, Captain.
> Planet number five there is habitable,
> although a bit savage, somewhat inhospitable.
> No more than Australia's Botany Bay colony was at the beginning.
> Those men went on to tame a continent, Mr. Khan.
> Can you tame a world?
>
> It will be difficult.
> A struggle at first,
> even to stay alive, to find food.
>
> Okay, I'd say that I got it 90-95%, just going "off the top of my
> head," from memory of the episode--that's good enough for me.
> And I still think that there should have been some Starfleet
> astronomical data about the destruction of Ceti Alpha VI (and the
> effect on the planetary system) that Spock or Chekov would've relayed
> to Kirk...
My bad, I think I mistook a Chekov quote. Possibly "This is the garden spot
of Ceti Alpha VI'.
*smacks self on head*
--
"Is it a Stockbroker? Is it a Quantity Surveyor? Is it a Church Warden? No!
It's BICYCLE REPAIR MAN!"
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75231 ] |
So, 10 Juli 2005 22:50 |
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"Graham Kennedy" <graham [at] ditl.org> wrote in message
news:PU5Ae.117642$Vo6.61895 [at] fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> CrimsnKid6 wrote:
>
>> Graham Kennedy on resignation from Starfleet:
>>
>>>(Can a Starfleet officer--or even enlisted rank--do this, escape
>>>legal consequences by just "leaving"? How does Kirk explain her
>>>"disappearance" from his crew, anyway?)
>>
>> She didn't just walk out, Kirk gave her the choice of leaving
>> or taking a court martial. As for how he wrote it up, who knows?
>> Probably just omitted any mention of wrongdoing and put her
>> down as having resigned. Kirk wasn't above faking log entries
>> when he felt like it.
>>
>> Well, normally a Starfleet member would be committed for a certain
>> length of service, I'd assume--probably at least five years if assigned
>> to a "five-year mission."
>
> I don't see any evidence of that. There are examples of
> Starfleet officers who simply resign and walk out of the
> door right then and there - Worf did that in Redemption,
> Wesley did it in Journey's End. I don't know that I've
> ever heard mention of a person serving out a specific
> term.
In ST TMP McCoy was apparently drafted back into service through some kind
of "Reserve activation clause".
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75233 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 02:41 |
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Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75239 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 06:55 |
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Uray on "no choice in the matter":
In ST TMP McCoy was apparently drafted back into service through some
kind
of "Reserve activation clause".
Yet if a Starfleet member can resign at any time, in theory he
could've just shown up and handed in his resignation and gone home
again.
But he was clearly grumbling that he was *stuck* on the mission and
that he couldn't just leave at his convenience.
Starfleet personnel may be allowed to resign at Starfleet's
discretion, especially in peacetime, but clearly if Starfleet wants to
compel someone to serve against his/her preference in some sort of
"emergency situation," it's legally able to do so.
That Starfleet may PERMIT individual resignations isn't the same as
its personnel having the absolute RIGHT to resign at will.
No combat-ready military force could effectively operate that way...
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75240 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 07:22 |
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Graham Kennedy on the timespan of "Journey's End":
> Picard probably wasn't in position to allow Wesley's resignation
> (IIRC Wesley wasn't permanently assigned to the ENTERPRISE then), but
> he could report to Starfleet that one of its officers "has evolved into
> a Traveler" and henceforth wouldn't be serving anymore.
Wesley resigned well before that happened.
IIRC the episode only covered a span of a few days, so Wesley may
have resigned about midway through the episode--but that's only a day
or so before he evolved.
IMHO a bureaucracy like Starfleet Command wouldn't be likely to
react to that situation before he became a Traveler, at which point it
wouldn't matter.
I don't believe that Starfleet would invest four years (or however
long it took Wesley to get through Starfleet Academy) in training him,
only to let him "walk away" (actually teleport away) at his discretion,
if it could help it.
Stafleet Academy is modeled after the service academies in the
United States (like West Point), and they require a minimum five-year
service committment as a return on the training and education they
provide.
I don't see Starfleet Academy being that different...
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #75241 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 08:13 |
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"Neon Knight" <knightofneon [at] spamex.com> wrote in message
news:Xns968FC85B0315819knightofneon20 [at] 216.196.97.136...
> "uray" <remove-uray [at] att.net> wrote in
> news:aSfAe.407955$cg1.97018 [at] bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
> > In ST TMP McCoy was apparently drafted back into service through
> > some kind of "Reserve activation clause".
>
> I believe it was a "little known, seldom used, reserve activation
> clause."
What, like, 'We need you to serve, and we have pictures of yourself with a
certain nurse that you wouldn't want to get out...' :-)
--
"Where did you get your clothes from? The toilet store?"
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #77748 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 15:30 |
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On 10 Jul 2005 21:55:54 -0700, "CrimsnKid6" <CrimsnKid6 [at] aol.com>
wrote:
>Uray on "no choice in the matter":
>
>In ST TMP McCoy was apparently drafted back into service through some
>kind
>of "Reserve activation clause".
>
> Yet if a Starfleet member can resign at any time, in theory he
>could've just shown up and handed in his resignation and gone home
>again.
> But he was clearly grumbling that he was *stuck* on the mission and
>that he couldn't just leave at his convenience.
>
> Starfleet personnel may be allowed to resign at Starfleet's
>discretion, especially in peacetime, but clearly if Starfleet wants to
>compel someone to serve against his/her preference in some sort of
>"emergency situation," it's legally able to do so.
> That Starfleet may PERMIT individual resignations isn't the same as
>its personnel having the absolute RIGHT to resign at will.
>
> No combat-ready military force could effectively operate that way...
> L.L.A.P.,
> --C.K.
Being in the military is like being a slave or prisoner with a gun.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #77749 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 15:43 |
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CrimsnKid6 wrote:
> Uray on "no choice in the matter":
>
> In ST TMP McCoy was apparently drafted back into service through some
> kind
> of "Reserve activation clause".
> Yet if a Starfleet member can resign at any time, in theory he
> could've just shown up and handed in his resignation and gone home
> again.
> But he was clearly grumbling that he was *stuck* on the mission and
> that he couldn't just leave at his convenience.
> Starfleet personnel may be allowed to resign at Starfleet's
> discretion, especially in peacetime, but clearly if Starfleet wants to
> compel someone to serve against his/her preference in some sort of
> "emergency situation," it's legally able to do so.
That's true. So they may be able to prevent you from resigning
during an emergency situation.
> That Starfleet may PERMIT individual resignations isn't the same as
> its personnel having the absolute RIGHT to resign at will.
But consider "Sub Rosa" :
BEVERLY : I'm leaving Starfleet. (to Chief) Energize.
PICARD : Belay that order. (to Beverly) Beverly, you
can't just... resign.
BEVERLY : I can - and I have. I've decided to stay on
Caldos and become a healer, like my grandmother.
It's a proud Howard tradition, and I've decided
to uphold it. (to Chief) Energize.
(The transporter chief looks to Picard.)
BEVERLY : I've resigned my commission. Now unless you plan
on kidnapping me...
(Picard nods to the Transporter Chief. Beverly dematerialises.)
Now that's plain as can be; Beverly resigned her commission,
and her CO at the moment was not able to prevent her. She even
compares hesitating to let her go to kidnapping!
> No combat-ready military force could effectively operate that way...
Yet they do.
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #77750 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 17:05 |
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in article zdfAe.20097$O22.16864 [at] fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk, James Allan
Kynes at penfold_007_2002 [at] remove2reply.yahoo.co.uk wrote on 7/10/05 1:06 PM:
> "CrimsnKid6" <CrimsnKid6 [at] aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1121022677.125904.6880 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> AMIN8Rfsk with (apparently) *direct quotes*:
>>
>>> Well, IIRC it was never described as a "paradise," just a "chance,"
>>> and Khan himself warned Lieutenant McGivers (as she pondered her
>>> decision) that "It will be a struggle even to survive at first."
>>
>>
>> Mr. Spock, our heading
>> takes us near the Ceti Alpha star system.
>> Quite correct, Captain.
>> Planet number five there is habitable,
>> although a bit savage, somewhat inhospitable.
>> No more than Australia's Botany Bay colony was at the beginning.
>> Those men went on to tame a continent, Mr. Khan.
>> Can you tame a world?
>>
>> It will be difficult.
>> A struggle at first,
>> even to stay alive, to find food.
>>
>> Okay, I'd say that I got it 90-95%, just going "off the top of my
>> head," from memory of the episode--that's good enough for me.
>> And I still think that there should have been some Starfleet
>> astronomical data about the destruction of Ceti Alpha VI (and the
>> effect on the planetary system) that Spock or Chekov would've relayed
>> to Kirk...
>
> My bad, I think I mistook a Chekov quote. Possibly "This is the garden spot
> of Ceti Alpha VI'.
>
> *smacks self on head*
>
Smack Chekov. I mean, he's usually wrong.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #77753 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 17:10 |
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in article n1t4d1d7bfl7sl92i5fe4pr9pujq09bg8k [at] 4ax.com, God'sClone [at] earth.net
at God'sClone [at] earth.net wrote on 7/11/05 6:30 AM:
> On 10 Jul 2005 21:55:54 -0700, "CrimsnKid6" <CrimsnKid6 [at] aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Uray on "no choice in the matter":
>>
>> In ST TMP McCoy was apparently drafted back into service through some
>> kind
>> of "Reserve activation clause".
>>
>> Yet if a Starfleet member can resign at any time, in theory he
>> could've just shown up and handed in his resignation and gone home
>> again.
>> But he was clearly grumbling that he was *stuck* on the mission and
>> that he couldn't just leave at his convenience.
>>
>> Starfleet personnel may be allowed to resign at Starfleet's
>> discretion, especially in peacetime, but clearly if Starfleet wants to
>> compel someone to serve against his/her preference in some sort of
>> "emergency situation," it's legally able to do so.
>> That Starfleet may PERMIT individual resignations isn't the same as
>> its personnel having the absolute RIGHT to resign at will.
>>
>> No combat-ready military force could effectively operate that way...
>> L.L.A.P.,
>> --C.K.
>
> Being in the military is like being a slave or prisoner with a gun.
Except for the part where it's totally different, sure.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #77754 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 17:34 |
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Graham Kennedy wrote:
> CrimsnKid6 wrote:
>
>> Uray on "no choice in the matter":
>>
>> In ST TMP McCoy was apparently drafted back into service through some
>> kind
>> of "Reserve activation clause".
>> Yet if a Starfleet member can resign at any time, in theory he
>> could've just shown up and handed in his resignation and gone home
>> again.
>> But he was clearly grumbling that he was *stuck* on the mission and
>> that he couldn't just leave at his convenience.
>> Starfleet personnel may be allowed to resign at Starfleet's
>> discretion, especially in peacetime, but clearly if Starfleet wants to
>> compel someone to serve against his/her preference in some sort of
>> "emergency situation," it's legally able to do so.
>
>
> That's true. So they may be able to prevent you from resigning
> during an emergency situation.
>
>> That Starfleet may PERMIT individual resignations isn't the same as
>> its personnel having the absolute RIGHT to resign at will.
>
>
> But consider "Sub Rosa" :
>
> BEVERLY : I'm leaving Starfleet. (to Chief) Energize.
> PICARD : Belay that order. (to Beverly) Beverly, you
> can't just... resign.
> BEVERLY : I can - and I have. I've decided to stay on
> Caldos and become a healer, like my grandmother.
> It's a proud Howard tradition, and I've decided
> to uphold it. (to Chief) Energize.
>
> (The transporter chief looks to Picard.)
>
> BEVERLY : I've resigned my commission. Now unless you plan
> on kidnapping me...
>
> (Picard nods to the Transporter Chief. Beverly dematerialises.)
>
>
> Now that's plain as can be; Beverly resigned her commission,
> and her CO at the moment was not able to prevent her. She even
> compares hesitating to let her go to kidnapping!
>
>> No combat-ready military force could effectively operate that way...
>
>
> Yet they do.
>
I would add that in the US military doctors, lawyers, chaplains and
other specialists serve under different rules than "line" officers. The
doctor may be able to just resign on a whim, but "line" officers may not
be so lucky.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #77755 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 18:02 |
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"ANIM8Rfsk" <ANIM8Rfsk [at] cox.net> wrote in message
news:BEF7D8E6.42C21%ANIM8Rfsk [at] cox.net...
> in article zdfAe.20097$O22.16864 [at] fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk, James Allan
> Kynes at penfold_007_2002 [at] remove2reply.yahoo.co.uk wrote on 7/10/05 1:06
> PM:
>
>> "CrimsnKid6" <CrimsnKid6 [at] aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1121022677.125904.6880 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> AMIN8Rfsk with (apparently) *direct quotes*:
>>>
>>>> Well, IIRC it was never described as a "paradise," just a "chance,"
>>>> and Khan himself warned Lieutenant McGivers (as she pondered her
>>>> decision) that "It will be a struggle even to survive at first."
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Spock, our heading
>>> takes us near the Ceti Alpha star system.
>>> Quite correct, Captain.
>>> Planet number five there is habitable,
>>> although a bit savage, somewhat inhospitable.
>>> No more than Australia's Botany Bay colony was at the beginning.
>>> Those men went on to tame a continent, Mr. Khan.
>>> Can you tame a world?
>>>
>>> It will be difficult.
>>> A struggle at first,
>>> even to stay alive, to find food.
>>>
>>> Okay, I'd say that I got it 90-95%, just going "off the top of my
>>> head," from memory of the episode--that's good enough for me.
>>> And I still think that there should have been some Starfleet
>>> astronomical data about the destruction of Ceti Alpha VI (and the
>>> effect on the planetary system) that Spock or Chekov would've relayed
>>> to Kirk...
>>
>> My bad, I think I mistook a Chekov quote. Possibly "This is the garden
>> spot
>> of Ceti Alpha VI'.
>>
>> *smacks self on head*
>>
>
> Smack Chekov. I mean, he's usually wrong.
And he screams so well...
--
--
Laura Ware (bookwormlady [at] earthlink.net)
Invalid thought detected. Close all mental processes and restart body.
Visit my blog at http://lauraslook.blogspot.com/
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #77756 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 18:45 |
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Ragnar on leaving Starfleet:
I would add that in the US military doctors, lawyers, chaplains and
other specialists serve under different rules than "line" officers.
The
doctor may be able to just resign on a whim, but "line" officers may
not
be so lucky.
In addition, by the time of "Sub Rosa" Beverly Crusher would
undoubtedly have served the minimum time that might be required by
Starfleet in return for her medical training, so she very well could be
able to leave at her discretion.
Barring it being wartime or there being a state of "emergency" (as
in the case of Dr. McCoy in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture"), an
officer who'd fullfilled his/her service commitment likely could simply
resign at any time--as in the U.S. armed forces, AFAIK.
But if Dr. Crusher had tried to resign much earlier, say only six
months after finishing her training at Starfleet Medical, that might
not have been allowed.
In the case of her son, though--well, good luck to Starfleet in
trying to *track down* and prosecute a Traveler for failing to fullfill
his service commitment...
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #77757 ] |
Mo, 11 Juli 2005 19:29 |
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<God'sClone [at] earth.net> wrote in message
news:n1t4d1d7bfl7sl92i5fe4pr9pujq09bg8k [at] 4ax.com...
<Moron alert>
--
Qa ' PLONK
Kweeg
Ten of Clubs in the eeeevil Cabal
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #77765 ] |
Di, 12 Juli 2005 06:03 |
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"Graham Kennedy" <graham [at] ditl.org> wrote in message
news:3IuAe.24569$O22.10677 [at] fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> BEVERLY : I'm leaving Starfleet. (to Chief) Energize.
> PICARD : Belay that order. (to Beverly) Beverly, you
> can't just... resign.
> BEVERLY : I can - and I have. I've decided to stay on
> Caldos and become a healer, like my grandmother.
> It's a proud Howard tradition, and I've decided
> to uphold it. (to Chief) Energize.
>
> (The transporter chief looks to Picard.)
>
> BEVERLY : I've resigned my commission. Now unless you plan
> on kidnapping me...
>
> (Picard nods to the Transporter Chief. Beverly dematerialises.)
>
>
> Now that's plain as can be; Beverly resigned her commission,
> and her CO at the moment was not able to prevent her. She even
> compares hesitating to let her go to kidnapping!
>
>> No combat-ready military force could effectively operate that way...
>
> Yet they do.
Well, you forgetting the fact that Picard is a WIMP! WIIIIIIIIIIMP!!!
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #77769 ] |
Di, 12 Juli 2005 07:29 |
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CrimsnKid6 wrote:
>
> Graham Kennedy on futuristic military enlistment:
>
> I don't see any evidence of that. There are examples of
> Starfleet officers who simply resign and walk out of the
> door right then and there - Worf did that in Redemption,
> Wesley did it in Journey's End. I don't know that I've
> ever heard mention of a person serving out a specific
> term.
>
> It may be that a career officer can resign at will after a certain
> period of service, but I would say that in the original "Trek" series
> it would be very difficult to maintain a "five-year mission" if those
> involved weren't legally committed to at least five years of service.
>
> In Worf's case, Picard as his commanding officer likely had the
> latitude to accept his immediate resignation--or Worf may already have
> served enough time to be able to resign at will, as long as it's
> peacetime anyway.
> Wesley Crusher was an entirely different situation, but what can
> Starfleet do when one of its officers evolves into a superior, more
> powerful life form? What if Amanda ("True Q") had been a member of
> Starfleet when she'd discovered she was a Q life form?
>
> Picard probably wasn't in position to allow Wesley's resignation
> (IIRC Wesley wasn't permanently assigned to the ENTERPRISE then), but
> he could report to Starfleet that one of its officers "has evolved into
> a Traveler" and henceforth wouldn't be serving anymore.
>
> But a military force in which any member serving can resign at any
> time? That doesn't sound practical or plausible to me, now or in the
> 23rd/24th century...
> L.L.A.P.,
> --C.K.
Wasn't wesley still a cadet at that point? He was in a cadet uniform I
think. Plus I think he would have been facing disciplinary action for
his conduct on that planet.
Yet somehow there he is in Nemesis as a Lt (I can never get a clear
enough view to tell if it is jr or sr grade) so he not only went back
but got at least 1 maybe 2 promotions
--
____________________________________________________________ _______
http://www.khaaan.com/
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #78316 ] |
Di, 12 Juli 2005 17:44 |
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M.H. on Wesley Crusher:
Wasn't wesley still a cadet at that point? He was in a cadet uniform I
think. Plus I think he would have been facing disciplinary action for
his conduct on that planet.
Yet somehow there he is in Nemesis as a Lt (I can never get a clear
enough view to tell if it is jr or sr grade) so he not only went back
but got at least 1 maybe 2 promotions
I can't make much sense out of Wesley's situation, since it's hard
to think of a space-spanning Traveler being in Starfleet--at the
conclusion of "Journey's End," it was strongly implied that Wesley was
moving *beyond* normal human existence as a Traveler.
Yet there's a brief glimpse of him in "Star Trek: Nemesis,"
apparently in Starfleet uniform--IMHO that seems to contradict the
ending to "Journey's End," unless one postulates that he just wore that
uniform in reflection of his former normal-human status in order to fit
in at the wedding.
That sounds questionable, but so does the idea that Starfleet is now
recruiting Travelers. (Q once temporarily joined the ENTERPRISE-D crew,
but he'd been stripped of his cosmic powers at that point.)
So Wesley "washed out" of the Travelers and somehow rejoined a very
forgiving Starfleet? That sounds pretty implausible too.
IMHO it was a mistake, given earlier continuity, to put Wesley (even
for just a brief glimpse) in a Starfleet uniform in "Nemesis."
More continuity issues...
L.L.A.P.,
--C.K.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #78318 ] |
Di, 12 Juli 2005 18:01 |
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James Allan Kynes wrote:
> "CrimsnKid6" <CrimsnKid6 [at] aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1120958797.908363.184280 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Whether being the mate of a brilliant egomaniac on an untamed,
>>barely livable planet is better than being court-martialed, who knows?
>> She does it for love (or at least infatuation) anyway...
>> L.L.A.P.,
>> --C.K.
>
>
> But you have to remember, Ceti Alpha V was a paradise ....
It was not a "paradise," though it was habitable:
SPOCK: Planet number five there is habitable,
although a bit savage, somewhat inhospitable.
KIRK: No more than Australia's Botany Bay colony was at the beginning.
Those men went on to tame a continent, Mr. Khan.
Can you tame a world?
--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
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| Re: List Of Bad TOS Starfleet Officers [message #78341 ] |
Di, 12 Juli 2005 20:54 |
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in article 1121183065.838844.158460 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, CrimsnKid6
at CrimsnKid6 [at] aol.com wrote on 7/12/05 10:44 AM:
> M.H. on Wesley Crusher:
>
> Wasn't wesley still a cadet at that point? He was in a cadet uniform I
> think. Plus I think he would have been facing disciplinary action for
> his conduct on that planet.
> Yet somehow there he is in Nemesis as a Lt (I can never get a clear
> enough view to tell if it is jr or sr grade) so he not only went back
> but got at least 1 maybe 2 promotions
>
> I can't make much sense out of Wesley's situation, since it's hard
> to think of a space-spanning Traveler being in Starfleet--at the
> conclusion of "Journey's End," it was strongly implied that Wesley was
> moving *beyond* normal human existence as a Traveler.
> Yet there's a brief glimpse of him in "Star Trek: Nemesis,"
> apparently in Starfleet uniform--IMHO that seems to contradict the
> ending to "Journey's End," unless one postulates that he just wore that
> uniform in reflection of his former normal-human status in order to fit
> in at the wedding.
>
> That sounds questionable, but so does the idea that Starfleet is now
> recruiting Travelers. (Q once temporarily joined the ENTERPRISE-D crew,
> but he'd been stripped of his cosmic powers at that point.)
> So Wesley "washed out" of the Travelers and somehow rejoined a very
> forgiving Starfleet? That sounds pretty implausible too.
>
> IMHO it was a mistake, given earlier continuity, to put Wesley (even
> for just a brief glimpse) in a Starfleet uniform in "Nemesis."
> More continuity issues...
That late TNG episode with the Traveler sucked a large quantity of dead
dingo dicks if you want my opinion. The pandering plot with the "American"
Indians was silly in the extreme.
Trying to make sense of "Journey's End" or "Nemesis" in some grand
story-telling sense is crazy. What you're seeing is a production staff ten
years apart in the two cases that barely knew what the fuck they were doing
on any given day.
The reason that Wesley was ever in "Nemesis" I suppose was to throw Wheaton
an olive branch and shoehorn as many characters back into the swan song for
the franchise. Maybe they saw that Wheaton had a posse because of his blog
and thought they'd squeeze the last drop of demographics they could into the
film? Given the mess "Nemesis" was that's more likely.
That once he and others like Whoopi got on set and they really had nothing
for them to do isn't surprising given the total cluster-fuck that movie
turned out to be.
--
"A bookstore is one of the only pieces of evidence we have that people are
still thinking."
-- Jerry Seinfeld
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