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Science Fiction » alt.fan.douglas-adams » Mish Mash Musings
Mish Mash Musings [message #73624] Mo, 04 Juli 2005 17:24
Coca C  
Hi,

I've just finished my second going-through of the Hitchhiker's books (the
first going-through having taken place some 8 years ago or something, at
which point I was somewhere between a zygote and a moody teenager, so I
didn't really get lots of things in the books at that point in time), and
something is bothering me: where (and when) exactly did the
universe/reality hopping take place? And why is that mixed up with the
dolphins?

Allow me to clarify the question(s) (as it turns out, this mess will
likely confuse you, so just skip to the end if you don't wish to waste
however long reading my stream of consciousness diarrhea):



As far as I can tell, in SLATFATF, the Earth is back where Arthur and Co.
left it in THGTTG because the dolphins decided they'd pay Slartibartfast
and friends to finish the almost-done Earth Mk. II. This explanation may
conflict with other story elements (ie that the Earth that Arthur finds
is actually one in a universe different to the one Arthur was born into -
of course, it's possible that the dolphins did do this, and that is the
Earth that Arthur finds, and it's in his home universe, but that
everything just gets complicated later due to universe-trickery).

Note that up until this point in time, there has been no universe-hopping
or other miscellaneous universe-trickery.

In Mostly Harmless, we are told that Fenchurch disappeared in hyperspace
due to her coming from the Plural Z area. This is one of two clear points
at which some universe-trickery has been undertaken. So, either Fenchurch
disappeard from the universe we know from the first three books, or,
since Arthur is also from the Plural Z area, Arthur was taken into a
different universe. This would explain why there are no flight details
for Fenchurch when Arthur confronts the spaceline (what's the space
equivalent of an airline?), and why he can no longer find the Earth that
he/we are familiar with, only Earth-like places. But, since he finds a
number of these Earth-like places, are we to assume that all this time he
has been travelling through the realms of probability, and has
encountered vast numbers of different probable Earths? Or just that he
found one probable Earth in the universe into which he has been thrust
(the one with the arse biting animals) and a bunch of planets that aren't
Earth in any sense, but just resemble it?

The only other universe-trickery incident I can find is when the Guide
Mk. II transports Random to the Earth that the astrophycisist cum TV
presenter Tricia Macmillan has been dwelling on. I had thought that it
was a case of the Guide moving Random through the General Mish Mash to an
Earth that was not of Random's native universe (as, as far as I can
recall, in Random's universe the Earth was destroyed). However, Ford and
Arthur manage to travel there via the Perfectly Normal Beasts and Elvis'
spaceship. Is this because, the Perfectly Normal Beasts traverse
universes, and via some extraordinary coincidence it just happened to be
the universe that Random and the Guide had ended up in?

Wait, that does make some kind of sense - after all, the Guide wanted to
maneuver the gang there, didn't it? And its speciality is manipulating
the Mish Mash, so it's perfectly logical that such a "coincidence" could
come into place. However, what doesn't make sense to me is why Trillian
happens to be on that Earth, in that universe, as well.



And then, I suppose, there's the whole "Know the question and answer at
the same time and the universe becomes more absurd" thing, which may or
may not have occured at some point in time. Though, I suppose, Prak
states that it's impossible to know them both. However he then sets out
consequences for what happens should those circumstances occur.

Wait - could Prak have known both the question and the answer when he was
told to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Or did such
telling not entail actual knowledge? If he did, then presumably the
universe went crazy when he did and we were left with something else
after LTUAE.


Oh, and another thing: from which universe are the Vogons that wish to
destroy Earth? Ford sees Vogons at the Guide's building that are a
different colour to what he remembers (grey instead of green), so I
suppose that's evidence for him being transported to another universe.
Are we to assume that all the Vogons through all possible universes
wished to destroy the Earth? Because all universes have a coterie of
philosophers and psychiatrists devoted to ridding their universe of the
Question. I suppose this makes some kind of sense; for a thing to be true
in all possible universes, it must be logically necessary, and maybe it's
necessary that given the purpose of philosophy and psychology,
philosophers and psychiatrists in every universe would want the Question
to not be known.


The following is not really as important as the above, just some
ramblings/meanderings.



Another thing that just occured to me: given the (sometimes*) four
dimensional/block universe** nature of Adams' creation, if Prak (or
anyone, for that matter) were to know the question and answer at the same
time, wouldn't the universe wink out of existence immediately? Because
the nature of the BU is such that all events "occur" at the same time, so
as soon as the universe was created, the point in time that a person knew
both the question and the answer has already occured (assuming it did
happen in the history of that universe). But perhaps that's what Adams
wants! And, I suppose, there's nothing contradictory about this.



* He also mentions that society for the preservation of space/time or
something, which has been set up to stop paradoxes occuring and the past
being rewritten etc. Under a block universe set up, such paradoxes and
rewriting of the past are impossible.



** Um, basically, that "time" only seems to "pass" because of the way we
percieve it, and that in reality time is a dimension just like the third
spatial one, and there's this big 4D chunk of stuff, and time travel
can't change events in the past, merely bring them to come to pass, for
example, when Arthur and Ford arrive back on past-Earth with the
Golgafrinchans and the Golgafrinchans replace prehistoric-man, Arthur and
Ford don't change the course of history with their actions, merely acted
out what had already been done by them prior to Arthur ever being
born.... er... this explanation has proved messier than expected...
sorry, or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_Universe

This might help.


--------------------------------


Oh dear. If any of the above actually turned out to clarify my questions
for you, then you must have a strange sense of what exactly "clarity"
entails. I suppose I could sum my questions with "What the hell exactly
happens with all this General Mish Mash mish mash?" I understand what
that concept *is*, but I can't see exactly when it has been relevant in
Mostly Harmless (ie I'm not sure when anyone has jumped around the
place), and what that means for the overall point(s)/message(s) of the
books. Probably nothing, actually.

By the way, I've tried googling and wikiing and FAQing and haven't found
satisfactory answers yet.
Re: Mish Mash Musings [message #73636 ] Di, 05 Juli 2005 01:51
Frankymole  
Coca C wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've just finished my second going-through of the Hitchhiker's books
> (the first going-through having taken place some 8 years ago or
> something, at which point I was somewhere between a zygote and a
> moody teenager, so I didn't really get lots of things in the books at
> that point in time), and something is bothering me: where (and when)
> exactly did the universe/reality hopping take place? And why is that
> mixed up with the dolphins?
>
> Allow me to clarify the question(s) (as it turns out, this mess will
> likely confuse you, so just skip to the end if you don't wish to waste
> however long reading my stream of consciousness diarrhea):
>
>
>
> As far as I can tell, in SLATFATF, the Earth is back where Arthur and
> Co. left it in THGTTG because the dolphins decided they'd pay
> Slartibartfast and friends to finish the almost-done Earth Mk. II.

Nope, the dolphins don't even know about the Earth MArk II. They just
donate one of the parallel universe Earth's as part of their "Save the
Humans" campaign. They are off enjoying life swimming and having fun in
another part of the WSOGMM and don't interact with Magrathea.

--
Frankymole
Re: Mish Mash Musings [message #73637 ] Di, 05 Juli 2005 02:03
Frankymole  
Coca C wrote:
> Oh dear. If any of the above actually turned out to clarify my
> questions for you, then you must have a strange sense of what exactly
> "clarity" entails. I suppose I could sum my questions with "What the
> hell exactly happens with all this General Mish Mash mish mash?" I
> understand what that concept *is*, but I can't see exactly when it
> has been relevant in Mostly Harmless (ie I'm not sure when anyone has
> jumped around the place), and what that means for the overall
> point(s)/message(s) of the books. Probably nothing, actually.
>
> By the way, I've tried googling and wikiing and FAQing and haven't
> found satisfactory answers yet.


The radio plays make it a lot clearer - get the latest two Phases now,
they're great fun too.

In short, the Trillian who had Random is brought to Earth (Dolphin earth -
maybe) by the Bird. All instances of escaped Earth people need to be
"cleaned up", though Elvis seems to have escaped, but he left before the
scheduled destruction so is not on Jeltz's "hit list" (or Van Haarl's).

Ford Prefect is brought there too because he was originally on Earth on its
deathday, and so scheduled for demolition too.

No, the Perfectly Normal Beasts don't relocate Arthur and Ford into another
part of the WSOGMM, they stay in the same universe/dimension/region-of-MM as
Random and Trillian. However, Arthur seems to be in a different dimension
to Fenchurch - both he, Ford and somehow Trillian have hopped there, of
course this may not be the original Trillian as she wouldn't be the kind to
be a reporter, surely... ah well, her lifespan originates from a Plural Zone
too, like arthur - she keeps crossing bits of the WSOGMM.

Haven't been much help, sorry, but have listened to the new radio series a
few times and re-read the last three books this year. The radio series
Quandary and Quintessential Phases do make sense when you listen to them -
as much as this ever can!
--
Frankymole
Re: Mish Mash Musings [message #73638 ] Di, 05 Juli 2005 05:20
Coca C  
I see, thanks for your explanation, it was rather helpful. So if HGTTG was
Arthur finding out his little planet was nothing compared to the universe
in which it was, MH was Arthur discovering that the universe in which he
dwelled was, in fact, miniscule compared to the entirity of what there was?
Or since he probably didn't really grasp the WSOGMM, maybe "Arthur gets
lost in something even bigger" is more appropriate.

By the way, where can I listen to this new series? Can I download it, or
buy it from somewhere online, perhaps?
Re: Mish Mash Musings [message #73654 ] Mi, 06 Juli 2005 03:46
Frankymole  
Coca C wrote:
> I see, thanks for your explanation, it was rather helpful. So if
> HGTTG was Arthur finding out his little planet was nothing compared
> to the universe in which it was, MH was Arthur discovering that the
> universe in which he dwelled was, in fact, miniscule compared to the
> entirity of what there was? Or since he probably didn't really grasp
> the WSOGMM, maybe "Arthur gets lost in something even bigger" is more
> appropriate.
>
> By the way, where can I listen to this new series? Can I download it,
> or buy it from somewhere online, perhaps?

Yes it should be available from Amazon, or do a search on a CD
price-checking site. I assume you're not in the UK so can't give any
specific URL links.

They are called "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - The Quandary Phase",
ISBN number 0-563-50496-X and "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - The
Quintessential Phase" ISBN number 0-563-50407-2. These double CDs contain
25 minutes of extra material recorded but not broadcast - accept no
substitutes! (No, I'm not on commission ;o))
--
Frankymole
Re: Mish Mash Musings [message #73658 ] Mi, 06 Juli 2005 12:37
Coca C  
"Frankymole" <ask_for_it [at] on_the_group.com> wrote in
news:dafd64$2k3$1 [at] news6.svr.pol.co.uk:
>
> Yes it should be available from Amazon, or do a search on a CD
> price-checking site. I assume you're not in the UK so can't give any
> specific URL links.
>
> They are called "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - The Quandary
> Phase", ISBN number 0-563-50496-X and "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
> Galaxy - The Quintessential Phase" ISBN number 0-563-50407-2. These
> double CDs contain 25 minutes of extra material recorded but not
> broadcast - accept no substitutes! (No, I'm not on commission ;o))

Haha. Should I bother tracking down the original radio plays (I've only
ever bothered with the books) to listen to before I go onto the Quandary
and Quintessential Phases?
Re: Mish Mash Musings [message #73659 ] Mi, 06 Juli 2005 18:55
Richmond  
"Coca C" <glebchild [at] mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:Xns968BD1DBFD88Esoca [at] 203.2.194.51...
> "Frankymole" <ask_for_it [at] on_the_group.com> wrote in
> news:dafd64$2k3$1 [at] news6.svr.pol.co.uk:
>>
>> Yes it should be available from Amazon, or do a search on a CD
>> price-checking site. I assume you're not in the UK so can't give any
>> specific URL links.
>>
>> They are called "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - The Quandary
>> Phase", ISBN number 0-563-50496-X and "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
>> Galaxy - The Quintessential Phase" ISBN number 0-563-50407-2. These
>> double CDs contain 25 minutes of extra material recorded but not
>> broadcast - accept no substitutes! (No, I'm not on commission ;o))
>
> Haha. Should I bother tracking down the original radio plays (I've only
> ever bothered with the books) to listen to before I go onto the Quandary
> and Quintessential Phases?

You should listen to the previous series, for the simple reason that they're
wonderful. But the Q-phases can be heard whether you've heard the previous
three phases or not, as long as you've read the first three books.

B.
Re: Mish Mash Musings [message #73663 ] Do, 07 Juli 2005 02:37
Frankymole  
Coca C wrote:
> "Frankymole" <ask_for_it [at] on_the_group.com> wrote in
> news:dafd64$2k3$1 [at] news6.svr.pol.co.uk:
>>
>> Yes it should be available from Amazon, or do a search on a CD
>> price-checking site. I assume you're not in the UK so can't give any
>> specific URL links.
>>
>> They are called "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - The Quandary
>> Phase", ISBN number 0-563-50496-X and "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
>> Galaxy - The Quintessential Phase" ISBN number 0-563-50407-2. These
>> double CDs contain 25 minutes of extra material recorded but not
>> broadcast - accept no substitutes! (No, I'm not on commission ;o))
>
> Haha. Should I bother tracking down the original radio plays (I've
> only ever bothered with the books) to listen to before I go onto the
> Quandary and Quintessential Phases?

You can if you like. My favourites are Fit the Fifth and Sixth, co-written
with John Lloyd (The restaurant at the End of the Universe sequence). But
they're not really necessary - the new radio plays carry on from the books,
not the radio series, really.
--
Frankymole
Re: Mish Mash Musings [message #73672 ] Do, 07 Juli 2005 12:01
John Coxon  
On 06/07/2005 11:37, five wild Event Maelstroms swirled in vicious storms of
unreason and Coca C spewed up:

> "Frankymole" <ask_for_it [at] on_the_group.com> wrote in
> news:dafd64$2k3$1 [at] news6.svr.pol.co.uk:
>
>>Yes it should be available from Amazon, or do a search on a CD
>>price-checking site. I assume you're not in the UK so can't give any
>>specific URL links.
>>
>>They are called "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - The Quandary
>>Phase", ISBN number 0-563-50496-X and "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
>>Galaxy - The Quintessential Phase" ISBN number 0-563-50407-2. These
>>double CDs contain 25 minutes of extra material recorded but not
>>broadcast - accept no substitutes! (No, I'm not on commission ;o))
>
>
> Haha. Should I bother tracking down the original radio plays (I've only
> ever bothered with the books) to listen to before I go onto the Quandary
> and Quintessential Phases?

Hmmm.

The Quandary and Quintessential Phases do not require this, no.

However, I always subscribed to the opinion that the first two radio series
are better than the first two books in almost every respect, so my answer to
your question is this:

YES! GET THEM NOW!


You can take or leave the Tertiary Phase, it's up to you - I think that it
beats the book in some ways but is inferior in others. I think it's worth
having. But get the other four first.

--
John Coxon

"IRTA 'Virgins suck even more'." - MEow (afdaniain)

Email: john[dot]coxon[at]gmail[dot]com
Website: http://alphacentauri.8k.com
Missing footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemowiki.pl?ISFN
ZZ9 - the official HHGG appreciation society: http://www.zz9.org/
Re: Mish Mash Musings [message #75504 ] Fr, 08 Juli 2005 00:58
bigbadwolf  
On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 10:37:13 GMT, Coca C <glebchild [at] mailinator.com>
wrote:

>"Frankymole" <ask_for_it [at] on_the_group.com> wrote in
>news:dafd64$2k3$1 [at] news6.svr.pol.co.uk:
>>
>> Yes it should be available from Amazon, or do a search on a CD
>> price-checking site. I assume you're not in the UK so can't give any
>> specific URL links.
>>
>> They are called "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - The Quandary
>> Phase", ISBN number 0-563-50496-X and "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
>> Galaxy - The Quintessential Phase" ISBN number 0-563-50407-2. These
>> double CDs contain 25 minutes of extra material recorded but not
>> broadcast - accept no substitutes! (No, I'm not on commission ;o))
>
>Haha. Should I bother tracking down the original radio plays (I've only
>ever bothered with the books) to listen to before I go onto the Quandary
>and Quintessential Phases?


Definately. The books are similar to the radio plays but the story
carries diferently. you also will want The Tertiary Phase, which came
out last year.
Re: Mish Mash Musings [message #75508 ] Fr, 08 Juli 2005 16:00
Kevin Saliga  
<bigbadwolf [at] threepigs.com> wrote in message
news:0bvpc192lkqfk39791stq97seuba17h6qe [at] 4ax.com...
> On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 10:37:13 GMT, Coca C <glebchild [at] mailinator.com>
> wrote:
>
>>"Frankymole" <ask_for_it [at] on_the_group.com> wrote in
>>news:dafd64$2k3$1 [at] news6.svr.pol.co.uk:
>>>
>>> They are called "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - The Quandary
>>> Phase", ISBN number 0-563-50496-X and "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
>>> Galaxy - The Quintessential Phase" ISBN number 0-563-50407-2. These
>>> double CDs contain 25 minutes of extra material recorded but not
>>> broadcast - accept no substitutes! (No, I'm not on commission ;o))
>>

Ironically, a search for the ISBN number on Amazon's site didn't turn up
this CD. However, searching for this number on Google turned up a link
directly to the CD - ON AMAZON! I love Google.

Could be that I was searching on the American Amazon site, and the Google
link took me to the UK site. No matter - found it and bought it!
Re: Mish Mash Musings [message #75513 ] Sa, 09 Juli 2005 12:48
Frankymole  
Kevin Saliga wrote:
> <bigbadwolf [at] threepigs.com> wrote in message
> news:0bvpc192lkqfk39791stq97seuba17h6qe [at] 4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 10:37:13 GMT, Coca C <glebchild [at] mailinator.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Frankymole" <ask_for_it [at] on_the_group.com> wrote in
>>> news:dafd64$2k3$1 [at] news6.svr.pol.co.uk:
>>>>
>>>> They are called "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - The
>>>> Quandary Phase", ISBN number 0-563-50496-X and "The Hitchhiker's
>>>> Guide to the Galaxy - The Quintessential Phase" ISBN number
>>>> 0-563-50407-2. These double CDs contain 25 minutes of extra
>>>> material recorded but not broadcast - accept no substitutes! (No,
>>>> I'm not on commission ;o))
>>>
>
> Ironically, a search for the ISBN number on Amazon's site didn't turn
> up this CD. However, searching for this number on Google turned up a
> link directly to the CD - ON AMAZON! I love Google.
>
> Could be that I was searching on the American Amazon site, and the
> Google link took me to the UK site. No matter - found it and bought
> it!

You won't regret it!

Dirk Maggs and Co have done an incredible job - and I rarely hyperbolize :o)
--
Frankymole
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