| TMP: didja ever notice... [message #71610] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 05:07 |
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In ST: TMP...
When Spock first appears on the bridge, he addresses Captain Decker as
"Commander", and he addresses Admiral Kirk as "Captain".
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71620 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 05:49 |
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"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:42C75659.331CB703 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> In ST: TMP...
>
> When Spock first appears on the bridge, he addresses Captain Decker as
> "Commander", and he addresses Admiral Kirk as "Captain".
That is correct - Kirk took a (temporary) downgrade of rank from Admiral to
"Captain" in order to command the Enterprise as Admiral is a flag, not an
operational, officer. Decker was given a (temporary) demotion by Kirk to
Commander in order to fill the rank of Executive Officer, below a Captain.
Both Uhura and Sulu address Kirk as "Captain!" when he first walks on the
bridge after his shuttlepod trip over to the Enterprise.
Kirk to Decker in Engineering:
"I'm replacing you as Captain of the Enterprise. You'll stay on as
Executive Officer - temporary grade reduction to Commander"
Very important scene in Engineering - I am sure it is unedited in all three
of the four releases to video (I have three - VHS, LaserDisc and DVD (twice:
I only have the Director's Cut but I'm looking for the prior version!!)
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71621 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 05:54 |
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Snake wrote:
>
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:42C75659.331CB703 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> > In ST: TMP...
> >
> > When Spock first appears on the bridge, he addresses Captain Decker as
> > "Commander", and he addresses Admiral Kirk as "Captain".
>
> That is correct - Kirk took a (temporary) downgrade of rank from Admiral to
> "Captain" in order to command the Enterprise as Admiral is a flag, not an
> operational, officer. Decker was given a (temporary) demotion by Kirk to
> Commander in order to fill the rank of Executive Officer, below a Captain.
I know, but how does Spock know that?
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71622 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 06:07 |
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"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:42C76177.4EC1ECED [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> Snake wrote:
>>
>> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
>> news:42C75659.331CB703 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
>> > In ST: TMP...
>> >
>> > When Spock first appears on the bridge, he addresses Captain Decker as
>> > "Commander", and he addresses Admiral Kirk as "Captain".
>>
>> That is correct - Kirk took a (temporary) downgrade of rank from Admiral
>> to
>> "Captain" in order to command the Enterprise as Admiral is a flag, not an
>> operational, officer. Decker was given a (temporary) demotion by Kirk to
>> Commander in order to fill the rank of Executive Officer, below a
>> Captain.
>
> I know, but how does Spock know that?
Logic. Only a Captain my command a starship during a normal mission; ranks
higher command task forces from flagships (I believe), not normal ship
operations.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71623 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 06:16 |
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"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:42C76177.4EC1ECED [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> Snake wrote:
>>
>> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
>> news:42C75659.331CB703 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
>> > In ST: TMP...
>> >
>> > When Spock first appears on the bridge, he addresses Captain Decker as
>> > "Commander", and he addresses Admiral Kirk as "Captain".
>>
>> That is correct - Kirk took a (temporary) downgrade of rank from Admiral
>> to
>> "Captain" in order to command the Enterprise as Admiral is a flag, not an
>> operational, officer. Decker was given a (temporary) demotion by Kirk to
>> Commander in order to fill the rank of Executive Officer, below a
>> Captain.
>
> I know, but how does Spock know that?
BTW, I'm watching TMP as we "speak". LaserDisc edition.
Spock also mentions after first coming on board
"I've been monitoring your communications with Starfleet Command, Captain"
So I am sure Kirk's rank would have been mentioned in references to him.
Note: I also noticed something - Spock's speech pattern. It shows great
emotion of intonation and most importantly he uses the contraction of
"I've". Everyone has always thought Spock was in Kohlinar upon his arrival
on Enterprise but this is /false/. He raises his eyebrow at McCoy jab in
the Officer's Lounge - an emotional reaction - and intones quite a bit.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71624 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 06:30 |
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Snake wrote:
>
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:42C76177.4EC1ECED [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> > Snake wrote:
> >>
> >> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> >> news:42C75659.331CB703 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> >> > In ST: TMP...
> >> >
> >> > When Spock first appears on the bridge, he addresses Captain Decker as
> >> > "Commander", and he addresses Admiral Kirk as "Captain".
> >>
> >> That is correct - Kirk took a (temporary) downgrade of rank from Admiral
> >> to
> >> "Captain" in order to command the Enterprise as Admiral is a flag, not an
> >> operational, officer. Decker was given a (temporary) demotion by Kirk to
> >> Commander in order to fill the rank of Executive Officer, below a
> >> Captain.
> >
> > I know, but how does Spock know that?
>
> BTW, I'm watching TMP as we "speak". LaserDisc edition.
>
> Spock also mentions after first coming on board
>
> "I've been monitoring your communications with Starfleet Command, Captain"
>
> So I am sure Kirk's rank would have been mentioned in references to him.
I see. OK!
>
> Note: I also noticed something - Spock's speech pattern. It shows great
> emotion of intonation and most importantly he uses the contraction of
> "I've". Everyone has always thought Spock was in Kohlinar upon his arrival
> on Enterprise but this is /false/. He raises his eyebrow at McCoy jab in
> the Officer's Lounge - an emotional reaction - and intones quite a bit.
Well, he basically failed to attain kohlinar. The voice from outer
space was calling him?
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71625 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 06:45 |
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"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:42C769F5.3DF97B91 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> Snake wrote:
>> Note: I also noticed something - Spock's speech pattern. It shows great
>> emotion of intonation and most importantly he uses the contraction of
>> "I've". Everyone has always thought Spock was in Kohlinar upon his
>> arrival
>> on Enterprise but this is /false/. He raises his eyebrow at McCoy jab in
>> the Officer's Lounge - an emotional reaction - and intones quite a bit.
>
> Well, he basically failed to attain kohlinar. The voice from outer
> space was calling him?
I simply find it interesting how quickly he, Spock, seemingly abandons
Kholinar. Kholinar is the removal of emotional triggers from the psyche,
not simply controlling the post-trigger reactions. If Nimoy was playing a
man who just recently failed in a Kholinar attempt less emotion would have
been logical. I am sure Nimoy could have taken training to emulate this.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71637 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 14:40 |
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"Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.IHATESPAM.SPAM_VAC.com> wrote
in message news:uEJxe.2918$vu5.6 [at] trndny08...
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:42C76177.4EC1ECED [at] lauragoodwin.org...
>> Snake wrote:
>>>
>>> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
>>> news:42C75659.331CB703 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
>>> > In ST: TMP...
>>> >
>>> > When Spock first appears on the bridge, he addresses Captain Decker as
>>> > "Commander", and he addresses Admiral Kirk as "Captain".
>>>
>>> That is correct - Kirk took a (temporary) downgrade of rank from Admiral
>>> to
>>> "Captain" in order to command the Enterprise as Admiral is a flag, not
>>> an
>>> operational, officer. Decker was given a (temporary) demotion by Kirk
>>> to
>>> Commander in order to fill the rank of Executive Officer, below a
>>> Captain.
>>
>> I know, but how does Spock know that?
>
> BTW, I'm watching TMP as we "speak". LaserDisc edition.
>
> Spock also mentions after first coming on board
>
> "I've been monitoring your communications with Starfleet Command, Captain"
>
> So I am sure Kirk's rank would have been mentioned in references to him.
>
> Note: I also noticed something - Spock's speech pattern. It shows great
> emotion of intonation and most importantly he uses the contraction of
> "I've". Everyone has always thought Spock was in Kohlinar upon his
> arrival on Enterprise but this is /false/. He raises his eyebrow at McCoy
> jab in the Officer's Lounge - an emotional reaction - and intones quite a
> bit.
Maybe not Kohlinar - but if my memory serves, Spock sounds a lot more
mechanical when he first arrives on Enterprise.
Now where did I put that DVD...
--
--
Laura Ware (bookwormlady [at] earthlink.net)
Parents are not interested in justice, they want quiet.
- Bill Cosby
Visit my blog at http://lauraslook.blogspot.com/
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71638 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 15:03 |
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"Laura Ware" <bookwormlady [at] NOBADSTUFearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:c1Rxe.16630$eM6.5683 [at] newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Maybe not Kohlinar - but if my memory serves, Spock sounds a lot more
> mechanical when he first arrives on Enterprise.
> Now where did I put that DVD...
Hmmm. :) Not to my ears he does not. There is quite a bit of intonation
in that voice on the bridge - he simply has a stoic face. He also uses
"I've" - a contraction. Based upon my experience contractions are used as a
time saver, which is not logical as it is not staying to the strictest
interpretation of grammar usage. That sentence is delivered with quite a
bit of intonation.
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| Re: TMP: didja ever notice... [message #71641 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 15:57 |
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Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
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| Re: TMP: didja ever notice... [message #71643 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 16:40 |
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"Neon Knight" <knightofneon [at] spamex.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96885B0D667F219knightofneon20 [at] 216.196.97.136...
> Doesn't the color patch behind the arrowhead insignia denote rank? I
> think white is for captain. It's been awhile since I watched TMP. For
> example, when Ilia sees Decker, she looks at his insignia and says
> Commander? Like she's surprised he's not the captain. That's when Decker
> says something about Kirk having "the utmost confidence in him."
>
> If anyone feels like watching TMP again, they should check to Decker's
> insignia while he's still captain and see if it's white, then check it
> again later (after he's demoted) and see if it changes color.
It seems to be white with some kind of gold insignia. Good call on that
one!
You know, for what it's worth, I just confirmed that the only person who
seems to be missing from rec hall meeting where Kirk briefs the crew about
V'Ger is...Decker. Did he snub Kirk by not showing?
OK, nope, it's not the bars on the shoulders!! The uniforms have the same
type of gold stripes on the sleeves as TOS! Decker has 2 stripes, Kirk has
3 - 2 solids surrounding a broken bar. The uniforms they were wearing prior
to Ilea showing up (on the bridge with all there) must have not been duty
uniform.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71644 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 18:47 |
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"Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.IHATESPAM.SPAM_VAC.com> wrote
in message news:RmRxe.7703$vE5.4638 [at] trndny07...
> "Laura Ware" <bookwormlady [at] NOBADSTUFearthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:c1Rxe.16630$eM6.5683 [at] newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> Maybe not Kohlinar - but if my memory serves, Spock sounds a lot more
>> mechanical when he first arrives on Enterprise.
>> Now where did I put that DVD...
>
> Hmmm. :) Not to my ears he does not. There is quite a bit of intonation
> in that voice on the bridge - he simply has a stoic face. He also uses
> "I've" - a contraction. Based upon my experience contractions are used as
> a time saver, which is not logical as it is not staying to the strictest
> interpretation of grammar usage. That sentence is delivered with quite a
> bit of intonation.
Well, I'm going to have to find the DVD and see it again - because now the
question is driving me NUTS!
--
--
Laura Ware (bookwormlady [at] earthlink.net)
Invalid thought detected. Close all mental processes and restart body.
Visit my blog at http://lauraslook.blogspot.com/
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| Re: TMP: didja ever notice... [message #71645 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 19:13 |
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in article Xns96885B0D667F219knightofneon20 [at] 216.196.97.136, Neon Knight at
knightofneon [at] spamex.com wrote on 7/3/05 6:57 AM:
> ToolPackinMama <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in news:42C75659.331CB703
> [at] lauragoodwin.org:
>
>> In ST: TMP...
>>
>> When Spock first appears on the bridge, he addresses Captain Decker as
>> "Commander", and he addresses Admiral Kirk as "Captain".
>
> Doesn't the color patch behind the arrowhead insignia denote rank? I
> think white is for captain. It's been awhile since I watched TMP. For
> example, when Ilia sees Decker, she looks at his insignia and says
> Commander? Like she's surprised he's not the captain. That's when Decker
> says something about Kirk having "the utmost confidence in him."
>
> If anyone feels like watching TMP again, they should check to Decker's
> insignia while he's still captain and see if it's white, then check it
> again later (after he's demoted) and see if it changes color.
>
Spock says he's been monitoring the E's communications with Starfleet.
That's gonna tell him Kirk is a Captain right there.
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| Re: TMP: didja ever notice... [message #71646 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 19:27 |
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Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
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| Re: TMP: didja ever notice... [message #71649 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 19:38 |
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Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
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| Re: TMP: didja ever notice... [message #71650 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 19:42 |
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"Neon Knight" <knightofneon [at] spamex.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96885B0D667F219knightofneon20 [at] 216.196.97.136...
> ToolPackinMama <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in news:42C75659.331CB703
> [at] lauragoodwin.org:
>
> > In ST: TMP...
> >
> > When Spock first appears on the bridge, he addresses Captain Decker as
> > "Commander", and he addresses Admiral Kirk as "Captain".
>
> Doesn't the color patch behind the arrowhead insignia denote rank? I
> think white is for captain. It's been awhile since I watched TMP. For
> example, when Ilia sees Decker, she looks at his insignia and says
> Commander? Like she's surprised he's not the captain. That's when Decker
> says something about Kirk having "the utmost confidence in him."
>
> If anyone feels like watching TMP again, they should check to Decker's
> insignia while he's still captain and see if it's white, then check it
> again later (after he's demoted) and see if it changes colour.
Those colours behind the "Enterprise insignia" in TMP denote department.
The stripes on the sleeves are the rank (just like TOS)
--
Qa'pla
Kweeg
Ten of Clubs in the eeeevil Cabal
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath
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| Re: TMP: didja ever notice... [message #71653 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 21:38 |
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in article Xns9688809E1E3519knightofneon20 [at] 216.196.97.136, Neon Knight at
knightofneon [at] spamex.com wrote on 7/3/05 10:38 AM:
> Neon Knight <knightofneon [at] spamex.com> wrote in
> news:Xns96887ECB2324D19knightofneon20 [at] 216.196.97.136:
>
>> Yes, but I'll say it again. In TMP, rank is determined by the color
>> circle behind the arrowhead insignia.
>
> As a followup, the site below further explains the colored rank circle
> behind the arrowhead insignia. While the site itself isn't canon, alot
> of the information may be. I'm sure if I look hard enough I can find a
> canon source.
>
> Here's a summary from the site (talking about TMP uniforms):
>
> "These uniforms indicated department by a colored circle behind the
> mission patch, according to this color code:
> White – command division
The problem there is, 'white' wouldn't tell you if somebody was an Admiral
or a Captain or a Commadore . . .
> Red – operations division, engineering and maintainance branches
> Gold – operations division, helm, communications and navigation branches
> Gray – operations division, security and services branches
> Orange – sciences division, scientific research and technical branches
> Green – sciences division, medical branch"
>
> http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starfleet_uniform
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71654 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 22:09 |
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"Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.IHATESPAM.SPAM_VAC.com> writes:
> "Laura Ware" <bookwormlady [at] NOBADSTUFearthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:c1Rxe.16630$eM6.5683 [at] newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > Maybe not Kohlinar - but if my memory serves, Spock sounds a lot more
> > mechanical when he first arrives on Enterprise.
> > Now where did I put that DVD...
>
> Hmmm. :) Not to my ears he does not. There is quite a bit of intonation
> in that voice on the bridge - he simply has a stoic face. He also uses
> "I've" - a contraction. Based upon my experience contractions are used as a
> time saver, which is not logical as it is not staying to the strictest
> interpretation of grammar usage. That sentence is delivered with quite a
> bit of intonation.
What do contractions have to do with emotion?
Perhaps you are confusing Spock's emotional makeup with Data's.
Data does not have emotions, but that's not the reason that
he doesn't use contractions - it's just a bug in his programming.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71656 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 22:53 |
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"Christopher C. Stacy" <cstacy [at] news.dtpq.com> wrote in message
news:uslyv8xdy.fsf [at] news.dtpq.com...
>What do contractions have to do with emotion?
The use of a contraction denotes an emotional response - in order to either
save time in a sentence due to the contraction's shorter construct or to
make a sentence less rigid sounding thereby reflecting an emotional choice.
Here is something I just found to point to this theory.
http://www.tefl.net/esl-articles/accommodation.htm
For instance:
"Therefore, we could contend that the "universality" of convergence
strategies may well point to people's perennial need for social approval and
mutual intelligibility, which is the underlying assumption proposed by
similarity-attraction theory"
Kohlinar would remove such emotional reactions to others and other's needs,
as only logic dictates a reaction. Therefore the use of a contraction that
breaks the proper grammatical construct of a sentence is illogical. A
contraction is a personal reinterpretation of a grammatical construct to
suit the mood or need of the user.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #71673 ] |
Mo, 04 Juli 2005 04:34 |
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"Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.IHATESPAM.SPAM_VAC.com> wrote
in message news:lfYxe.12314$Hw5.8141 [at] trndny09...
> "Christopher C. Stacy" <cstacy [at] news.dtpq.com> wrote in message
> news:uslyv8xdy.fsf [at] news.dtpq.com...
> >What do contractions have to do with emotion?
>
> The use of a contraction denotes an emotional response - in order to
either
> save time in a sentence due to the contraction's shorter construct or to
> make a sentence less rigid sounding thereby reflecting an emotional
choice.
The use of contractions is related to comfort and habits with a language.
Someone who is comfortable with speech patterns doesn't take the time
to figure out how they can save time by using contractions.
But let's do a bit of a reality check. We're talking about a character in a
television
show. The writers showed no use of this technique previously and they have
not
hinted at the design in the time since the movie premiered. Only with Data
do they
make a notation that contractions mean anything unusual.
I remember some stiffness in the speech but put it down just to the script
and the
fact that it had been a number of years since the actors had portrayed the
characters.
>
> Here is something I just found to point to this theory.
>
> http://www.tefl.net/esl-articles/accommodation.htm
>
> For instance:
>
> "Therefore, we could contend that the "universality" of convergence
> strategies may well point to people's perennial need for social approval
and
> mutual intelligibility, which is the underlying assumption proposed by
> similarity-attraction theory"
>
> Kohlinar would remove such emotional reactions to others and other's
needs,
> as only logic dictates a reaction. Therefore the use of a contraction
that
> breaks the proper grammatical construct of a sentence is illogical. A
> contraction is a personal reinterpretation of a grammatical construct to
> suit the mood or need of the user.
>
>
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73423 ] |
Mo, 04 Juli 2005 18:09 |
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Spock does mention that he'd been monitoring what was going on, presumably
including all of the playing of musical ranks that was happening.
"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:42C75659.331CB703 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> In ST: TMP...
>
> When Spock first appears on the bridge, he addresses Captain Decker as
> "Commander", and he addresses Admiral Kirk as "Captain".
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| Re: TMP: didja ever notice... [message #73432 ] |
Di, 05 Juli 2005 05:19 |
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ToolPackinMama wrote:
> In ST: TMP...
>
> When Spock first appears on the bridge, he addresses Captain Decker as
> "Commander", and he addresses Admiral Kirk as "Captain".
Yes, probably because at that point both men were wearing those ranks.
Its a simple matter of observation to note someone's rank and then use
it when addressing them.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73433 ] |
Di, 05 Juli 2005 07:13 |
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"Brenda" <invalid [at] invalid.invalid> writes:
> "Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.IHATESPAM.SPAM_VAC.com> wrote
> in message news:lfYxe.12314$Hw5.8141 [at] trndny09...
> > "Christopher C. Stacy" <cstacy [at] news.dtpq.com> wrote in message
> > news:uslyv8xdy.fsf [at] news.dtpq.com...
> > >What do contractions have to do with emotion?
> >
> > The use of a contraction denotes an emotional response - in order
> to either > save time in a sentence due to the contraction's shorter
> construct or to > make a sentence less rigid sounding thereby
> reflecting an emotional choice.
>
> The use of contractions is related to comfort and habits with a language.
> Someone who is comfortable with speech patterns doesn't take the time
> to figure out how they can save time by using contractions.
Being facile with a language doesn't imply that you
are expressing emotions by using; it simply means
that you are well-educated in the language.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73435 ] |
Di, 05 Juli 2005 14:55 |
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"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote:
>
> "Brenda" <invalid [at] invalid.invalid> writes:
>
> > "Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.IHATESPAM.SPAM_VAC.com> wrote
> > in message news:lfYxe.12314$Hw5.8141 [at] trndny09...
> > > "Christopher C. Stacy" <cstacy [at] news.dtpq.com> wrote in message
> > > news:uslyv8xdy.fsf [at] news.dtpq.com...
> > > >What do contractions have to do with emotion?
> > >
> > > The use of a contraction denotes an emotional response - in order
> > to either > save time in a sentence due to the contraction's shorter
> > construct or to > make a sentence less rigid sounding thereby
> > reflecting an emotional choice.
> >
> > The use of contractions is related to comfort and habits with a language.
> > Someone who is comfortable with speech patterns doesn't take the time
> > to figure out how they can save time by using contractions.
>
> Being facile with a language doesn't imply that you
> are expressing emotions by using; it simply means
> that you are well-educated in the language.
English is a primary language for Spock, his Terran mother no doubt
spoke it with him since infancy. Of course he's fluent.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73445 ] |
Di, 05 Juli 2005 21:53 |
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ToolPackinMama <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> writes:
> "Christopher C. Stacy" wrote:
> >
> > "Brenda" <invalid [at] invalid.invalid> writes:
> >
> > > "Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.IHATESPAM.SPAM_VAC.com> wrote
> > > in message news:lfYxe.12314$Hw5.8141 [at] trndny09...
> > > > "Christopher C. Stacy" <cstacy [at] news.dtpq.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:uslyv8xdy.fsf [at] news.dtpq.com...
> > > > >What do contractions have to do with emotion?
> > > >
> > > > The use of a contraction denotes an emotional response - in order
> > > to either > save time in a sentence due to the contraction's shorter
> > > construct or to > make a sentence less rigid sounding thereby
> > > reflecting an emotional choice.
> > >
> > > The use of contractions is related to comfort and habits with a language.
> > > Someone who is comfortable with speech patterns doesn't take the time
> > > to figure out how they can save time by using contractions.
> >
> > Being facile with a language doesn't imply that you
> > are expressing emotions by using; it simply means
> > that you are well-educated in the language.
>
> English is a primary language for Spock, his Terran mother
> no doubt spoke it with him since infancy. Of course he's fluent.
I think that his AVOIDING the use of contractions belies his emotions.
His natural fluent use of English would have used contractions.
Never using them is a deliberate affectation, cultivated to give the
appearance that his speech and thoughts are more formal and precise.
The reason why he does this is rooted in some emotional reaction.
Perhaps it's an inferiority complex relative to full-blooded Vulcans.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73450 ] |
Di, 05 Juli 2005 22:39 |
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"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote:
> I think that his AVOIDING the use of contractions belies his emotions.
> His natural fluent use of English would have used contractions.
> Never using them is a deliberate affectation, cultivated to give the
> appearance that his speech and thoughts are more formal and precise.
That makes sense to me.
> The reason why he does this is rooted in some emotional reaction.
> Perhaps it's an inferiority complex relative to full-blooded Vulcans.
I think it's well-established in TOS canon that Spock is sensitive about
his half-breed status. Perhaps he has low self-esteem, and feels like
he has to try extra hard to be respectable.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73457 ] |
Di, 05 Juli 2005 23:32 |
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Snake wrote:
> "Laura Ware" <bookwormlady [at] NOBADSTUFearthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:c1Rxe.16630$eM6.5683 [at] newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>>Maybe not Kohlinar - but if my memory serves, Spock sounds a lot more
>>mechanical when he first arrives on Enterprise.
>>Now where did I put that DVD...
>
>
> Hmmm. :) Not to my ears he does not. There is quite a bit of intonation
> in that voice on the bridge - he simply has a stoic face. He also uses
> "I've" - a contraction. Based upon my experience contractions are used as a
> time saver, which is not logical as it is not staying to the strictest
> interpretation of grammar usage. That sentence is delivered with quite a
> bit of intonation.
Wouldn't it be logical to save time by using contractions? As long as
the meaning is clearly understood by all parties, contractions are fine.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73466 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 03:28 |
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Ragnar wrote:
> Wouldn't it be logical to save time by using contractions? As long as
> the meaning is clearly understood by all parties, contractions are fine.
You'd think. But then, being charitable and forgiving is more
cost-efficient that being warlike, too. Hypothetically.
--
I was raised Christian, but I "fell away". I still wish people would do
what Jesus said. The fact that most "Christians" don't actually follow
Jesus is ~seriously~ why I "fell away". [Laura Goodwin]
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73470 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 04:30 |
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ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Ragnar wrote:
>
>
>>Wouldn't it be logical to save time by using contractions? As long as
>>the meaning is clearly understood by all parties, contractions are fine.
>
>
> You'd think. But then, being charitable and forgiving is more
> cost-efficient that being warlike, too. Hypothetically.
Not really. A middle road would be far more logical.
You have only to ask yourself what would happen if the Vulcans were
charitable and forgiving to the Klingons. There wouldn't be any Vulcans
afterwards.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73471 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 04:55 |
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"Christopher C. Stacy" <cstacy [at] news.dtpq.com> wrote in message
news:u8y0lltsd.fsf [at] news.dtpq.com...
> Being facile with a language doesn't imply that you
> are expressing emotions by using; it simply means
> that you are well-educated in the language.
It depends upon the grammatical usage. The words and form you choose in
expressing those words is a direct reflection of your emotional state during
your construction of the conversational content.
Attempt an emotional repression during this written conversation and you
will find your sentence becoming more rigid in structure. During
conversations regarding Kholinar I seem to raise my personal shields a small
amount and can indeed sense this pattern reoccurring. My thoughts become
more patterned and proper grammatical structure is just another pattern for
a focused mind to follow.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73472 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 05:38 |
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"Ragnar" <rworkss [at] comsouth.net> wrote in message
news:p_ydncBFZ8bxYVffRVn-oQ [at] giganews.com...
> Wouldn't it be logical to save time by using contractions? As long as the
> meaning is clearly understood by all parties, contractions are fine.
Regretfully, no. The question is how the logical mind works. "Logic" is a
progressive pattern of steps accomplished with a mathematical style of
framework. When we are taught English in schools we learn the most rigid
patterns of these constructs as "proper" - stylistic interpretive writing
comes later after much experience. Vocalized language follows the same
pattern. A contraction is a stylistic interpretation of a "proper"
grammatical construct of "I will", "could have", "you will", etc. The
requirements of using these stylistic interpretations is based upon proper
understanding of the formal construct and fluently replacing the formal
patterns with stylistic constructs. If a sentence can be formed inside a
mathematical model of English grammar using formal communication rules,
using the stylistic construct results in the equivalent of a calculative
matrix outside the main mathematical model.
For a logical, patterned mind to change matrices outside the main construct
for the sake of adaptive interpersonal communications is illogical. Once
locked into the structure of formal speaking in order to maintain the
mathematical paradigm of communications that a Kholinar mind would function
on, to switch formulae outside the formal structure is not rational.
....
Let us simply say I have experience in this example and my I ask politely to
leave it at that. I will explain if forced.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73473 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 07:08 |
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Ragnar wrote:
>
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
> > Ragnar wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Wouldn't it be logical to save time by using contractions? As long as
> >>the meaning is clearly understood by all parties, contractions are fine.
> >
> >
> > You'd think. But then, being charitable and forgiving is more
> > cost-efficient that being warlike, too. Hypothetically.
>
> Not really. A middle road would be far more logical.
Oh? Meaning what, specifically?
>
> You have only to ask yourself what would happen if the Vulcans were
> charitable and forgiving to the Klingons. There wouldn't be any Vulcans
> afterwards.
Oh? So what do you think the Vulcans actually did instead - and why do
you think that?
--
"I had an unhappy childhood, and you have to pay!" [Conan O'Brian]
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73475 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 11:07 |
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ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Ragnar wrote:
>
>>ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>
>>>Ragnar wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Wouldn't it be logical to save time by using contractions? As long as
>>>>the meaning is clearly understood by all parties, contractions are fine.
>>>
>>>
>>>You'd think. But then, being charitable and forgiving is more
>>>cost-efficient that being warlike, too. Hypothetically.
>>
>>Not really. A middle road would be far more logical.
>
>
> Oh? Meaning what, specifically?
What part of "middle road" between the two extremes do you not understand?
>>You have only to ask yourself what would happen if the Vulcans were
>>charitable and forgiving to the Klingons. There wouldn't be any Vulcans
>> afterwards.
>
>
> Oh? So what do you think the Vulcans actually did instead - and why do
> you think that?
Vulcans aren't stupid. Even elementary analysis would show that true
pacifism isn't compatible with continued existence in the face of
unrestrained hostility.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73476 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 11:09 |
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Snake wrote:
> "Ragnar" <rworkss [at] comsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:p_ydncBFZ8bxYVffRVn-oQ [at] giganews.com...
>
>>Wouldn't it be logical to save time by using contractions? As long as the
>>meaning is clearly understood by all parties, contractions are fine.
>
>
> Regretfully, no. The question is how the logical mind works. "Logic" is a
> progressive pattern of steps accomplished with a mathematical style of
> framework. When we are taught English in schools we learn the most rigid
> patterns of these constructs as "proper" - stylistic interpretive writing
> comes later after much experience. Vocalized language follows the same
> pattern. A contraction is a stylistic interpretation of a "proper"
> grammatical construct of "I will", "could have", "you will", etc. The
> requirements of using these stylistic interpretations is based upon proper
> understanding of the formal construct and fluently replacing the formal
> patterns with stylistic constructs. If a sentence can be formed inside a
> mathematical model of English grammar using formal communication rules,
> using the stylistic construct results in the equivalent of a calculative
> matrix outside the main mathematical model.
>
> For a logical, patterned mind to change matrices outside the main construct
> for the sake of adaptive interpersonal communications is illogical. Once
> locked into the structure of formal speaking in order to maintain the
> mathematical paradigm of communications that a Kholinar mind would function
> on, to switch formulae outside the formal structure is not rational.
>
sez you :)
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73477 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 13:23 |
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"Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.IHATESPAM.SPAM_VAC.com> writes:
> "Christopher C. Stacy" <cstacy [at] news.dtpq.com> wrote in message
> news:u8y0lltsd.fsf [at] news.dtpq.com...
> > Being facile with a language doesn't imply that you
> > are expressing emotions by using; it simply means
> > that you are well-educated in the language.
> It depends upon the grammatical usage. The words and form you choose in
> expressing those words is a direct reflection of your emotional state during
> your construction of the conversational content.
You, maybe.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73480 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 16:46 |
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"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:42CB33A6.705177C [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> Ragnar wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't it be logical to save time by using contractions? As long as
> > the meaning is clearly understood by all parties, contractions are fine.
>
> You'd think. But then, being charitable and forgiving is more
> cost-efficient that being warlike, too. Hypothetically.
>
If that were remotely true, evolution would have bred humanity to peace.
Instead, we still organize in large numbers to turn foraging in to
pillaging.
The trump card is not what you *think* is more efficient, it's what Darwin
has *shown* is within the range of optimal strategies.
Ironic, you bring sentimentality to the table to form a judgment, and then
label it as logic.
Bo Raxo
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73481 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 17:41 |
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"Ragnar" <rworkss [at] comsouth.net> wrote in message
news:YOudnW0XRJE2AlbfRVn-sQ [at] giganews.com...
> sez you :)
:-)
True. But I do have the experience of which I speak. It received
approximately the same amount of "cold shoulder" that the fictional
occurrence on TMP did.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73489 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 18:53 |
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>>
Regretfully, no. The question is how the logical mind works. "Logic"
is a
progressive pattern of steps accomplished with a mathematical style of
framework. When we are taught English in schools we learn the most
rigid
patterns of these constructs as "proper" - stylistic interpretive
writing
comes later after much experience. Vocalized language follows the same
pattern. A contraction is a stylistic interpretation of a "proper"
grammatical construct of "I will", "could have", "you will", etc. The
requirements of using these stylistic interpretations is based upon
proper
understanding of the formal construct and fluently replacing the formal
patterns with stylistic constructs. If a sentence can be formed inside
a
mathematical model of English grammar using formal communication rules,
using the stylistic construct results in the equivalent of a
calculative
matrix outside the main mathematical model.
For a logical, patterned mind to change matrices outside the main
construct
for the sake of adaptive interpersonal communications is illogical.
>>
No, it's simply unpleasant, and aesthically displeasing. Star Trek
teaches us to informally throw the word "logic" around to encompass all
those things, but that's not really what the word means. Spock even
goes so far as to use "logic" to mean "intuitively obvious", while
claiming that intuition and logic are antithetical.
>>
Once
locked into the structure of formal speaking in order to maintain the
mathematical paradigm of communications that a Kholinar mind would
function
on, to switch formulae outside the formal structure is not rational.
>>
Something is logical or illogical based on whether it violates
pre-defined logical laws. Being aesthetically unpleasant or disturbing
to the mind of someone who usually follows such laws does not make an
action illogical, it's still a matter of aesthetics.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73490 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 18:55 |
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Ragnar wrote:
> Vulcans aren't stupid. Even elementary analysis would show that true
> pacifism isn't compatible with continued existence in the face of
> unrestrained hostility.
You'd think so, but Surak seems supremely unable to grasp that very
simple point in The Savage Curtain. However great a man of peace he
may have been, he doesn't come across as the sharpest lirpa in the
ceremony.
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| Re: didja ever notice... [message #73491 ] |
Mi, 06 Juli 2005 18:58 |
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Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
> I think that his AVOIDING the use of contractions belies his emotions.
> His natural fluent use of English would have used contractions.
> Never using them is a deliberate affectation, cultivated to give the
> appearance that his speech and thoughts are more formal and precise.
Yes, never use one syllable when two will do. Of course sometimes it
looks silly, like in Court-Martial when he incorrectly believes that
stalemate and draw are synonymous.
And the game he plays where he pretends to be unaware of the existence
of colloquialisms is just silly. Even if he doesn't use them himself,
he ought to be aware of their existence after years of serving with
humans.
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