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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » The Elessar and the One Ring
The Elessar and the One Ring [message #71348] Fr, 01 Juli 2005 00:31
Christopher Kreuzer  
I've just been re-reading chapter IV of /Unfinished Tales/ - the chapter
titled 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn' - and I noticed something
in the note at the end about the possible histories of the Elessar (the
green stone that Galadriel gave to Aragorn).

In the second of the two suggested histories, it is said that
Celebrimbor made the Elessar that came to Aragorn, and that Celebrimbor
made it in imitation of an earlier green jewel, also called the Elessar.
The note concludes with this statement:

"...and it [the Elessar] was not under the One, being made before Sauron
arose again."

I found it intriguing that it is suggested that not only the Rings of
Power, but also _other_ devices of the Noldor, could have been brought
under the power of the One Ring. In this case the suggestion is that the
Elessar could have been dominated by the One Ring. What a horrible
thought!

There is also the point (not new) that for something to be under the
power of the One, it had to have been made _after_ Sauron arose.
Presumably because the Gwaith-i-Mirdain worked their craft using ideas
provided by Sauron, and this was a fatal weakness that allowed the One
Ring to dominate them.

Is it also possible to surmise from all this that the Elessar and the
Rings of Power (at least the Three Rings later held by the Elves) worked
in similar ways?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: The Elessar and the One Ring [message #72686 ] Fr, 01 Juli 2005 16:37
Michael  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> I found it intriguing that it is suggested that not only the Rings of
> Power, but also _other_ devices of the Noldor, could have been brought
> under the power of the One Ring. In this case the suggestion is that the
> Elessar could have been dominated by the One Ring. What a horrible
> thought!
>
> There is also the point (not new) that for something to be under the
> power of the One, it had to have been made _after_ Sauron arose.
> Presumably because the Gwaith-i-Mirdain worked their craft using ideas
> provided by Sauron, and this was a fatal weakness that allowed the One
> Ring to dominate them.
>
> Is it also possible to surmise from all this that the Elessar and the
> Rings of Power (at least the Three Rings later held by the Elves) worked
> in similar ways?

All magical devices worked in a similar fashion. When Sauron created
the One Ring, he did so with the intention of controlling not only the
Elves but everything they made. The point is made somewhere, perhaps
by Elrond or Gandalf or Galadriel, or perhaps by Tolkien himself, that
should Sauron regain the One Ring, then everything the Elves had
accomplished (through the power of the Three) would be laid bare to
Sauron.

Tolkien's musings on the origins of the Elessar appear to be grounded
in an desire to make its story more complete. It doesn't really figure
significantly in THE LORD OF THE RINGS, even though Aragorn takes his
name from it.

--
Tolkien News Group Seminar: Rewriting Tolkien the way THEY want him to
read.
"Since when has proof meant anything to believers?" - Tamim, June 30,
2005
Re: The Elessar and the One Ring [message #72720 ] Sa, 02 Juli 2005 01:29
Christopher Kreuzer  
Michael [at] xenite.org <Michael [at] xenite.org> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

<snip>

>> Is it also possible to surmise from all this that the Elessar and the
>> Rings of Power (at least the Three Rings later held by the Elves)
>> worked in similar ways?
>
> All magical devices worked in a similar fashion.

Ah, but what do you mean by 'magic'? :-)

> When Sauron created
> the One Ring, he did so with the intention of controlling not only the
> Elves but everything they made. The point is made somewhere, perhaps
> by Elrond or Gandalf or Galadriel, or perhaps by Tolkien himself, that
> should Sauron regain the One Ring, then everything the Elves had
> accomplished (through the power of the Three) would be laid bare to
> Sauron.

Elrond or Gandalf or Galadriel? How about all three? :-)

Gandalf: "He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is
his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so
that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will
command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three, and all that
has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger
than ever." (The Shadow of the Past)

Elrond: "But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will
turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed
to Sauron, if he regains the One." (The Council of Elrond)

Galadriel: "Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the
footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy."
(The Mirror of Galadriel)

Or perhaps even Tolkien himself:

"...the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and
controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those
that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the
end could utterly enslave them." (Tolkien, Letter 131 to Milton Waldman,
probably late 1951)

> Tolkien's musings on the origins of the Elessar appear to be grounded
> in an desire to make its story more complete. It doesn't really
> figure significantly in THE LORD OF THE RINGS, even though Aragorn
> takes his name from it.

Tolkien's musings on the Elessar remind me of the backstory he wrote for
the Elendilmir, as told in the 'Disaster of the Gladden Fields' bit of
/Unfinished Tales/.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West.
Some courage and some wisdom, blended in measure. If more of us valued
food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier
world." - Thorin's farewell (The Return Journey, The Hobbit)
Re: The Elessar and the One Ring [message #72725 ] Sa, 02 Juli 2005 02:25
Graham Lockwood  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
{snip}
> I found it intriguing that it is suggested that not only the Rings of
> Power, but also _other_ devices of the Noldor, could have been brought
> under the power of the One Ring. In this case the suggestion is that the
> Elessar could have been dominated by the One Ring. What a horrible
> thought!
{snip}

I don't think that means that if the Ellesar had been made after Sauron
arose, then it WOULD have been under the One but that if Celebrimbor
had made it after learning Ringlore, etc. from Sauron, then he MAY have
incorporated some of that lore into the Ellesar.



---
Graham
Re: The Elessar and the One Ring [message #72727 ] Sa, 02 Juli 2005 02:31
Michael  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Michael [at] xenite.org <Michael [at] xenite.org> wrote:
> > Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Is it also possible to surmise from all this that the Elessar and the
> >> Rings of Power (at least the Three Rings later held by the Elves)
> >> worked in similar ways?
> >
> > All magical devices worked in a similar fashion.
>
> Ah, but what do you mean by 'magic'? :-)

I wish I had the time for that discussion right now. It's one of the
few areas where acrimony hasn't crept in between me and the news group
regulars.

> > When Sauron created
> > the One Ring, he did so with the intention of controlling not only the
> > Elves but everything they made. The point is made somewhere, perhaps
> > by Elrond or Gandalf or Galadriel, or perhaps by Tolkien himself, that
> > should Sauron regain the One Ring, then everything the Elves had
> > accomplished (through the power of the Three) would be laid bare to
> > Sauron.
>
> Elrond or Gandalf or Galadriel? How about all three? :-)

[snip citations]

> Or perhaps even Tolkien himself:

[snip citation]

Thanks. I often have to go only by memory, and try not to make
definitive comments when I do so.

> > Tolkien's musings on the origins of the Elessar appear to be grounded
> > in an desire to make its story more complete. It doesn't really
> > figure significantly in THE LORD OF THE RINGS, even though Aragorn
> > takes his name from it.
>
> Tolkien's musings on the Elessar remind me of the backstory he wrote for
> the Elendilmir, as told in the 'Disaster of the Gladden Fields' bit of
> /Unfinished Tales/.

One of my conjectures is that a great deal of the material published in
UNFINISHED TALES OF NUMENOR AND MIDDLE-EARTH would eventually have been
published in a special companion volume to THE LORD OF THE RINGS.

Tolkien never mentions such a companion volume, but the material all
dates to the same era and Tolkien had already published two companion
books (THE ROAD GOES EVER ON and THE ADVENTURES OF TOM BOMBADIL). I
think he realized, at least on a sub-conscious level, that there was so
much curiosity about the Third Age of Middle-earth that he would never
have any peace if he didn't write substantially more about it.

But he became fascinated with the philological aspects of that history,
and probably refrained from formalizing his work as a book proposal.
It was incomplete anyway.

--
Tolkien News Group Seminar: Rewriting Tolkien the way THEY want him to
read.
"Since when has proof meant anything to believers?" - Tamim, June 30,
2005
Tolkien was wrong, but the Tolkien news group will fix him with FAQs!
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