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Science Fiction » alt.startrek » How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style!
| How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65153] |
Mi, 22 Juni 2005 04:30 |
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Life is not always peaceful and pleasant. Sometimes we are forced by
circumstances to deal with things or people that are, frankly, horrible.
In the original Star Trek, we met many monsters. Some of them came in
human form.
The Sci-Fi creature-hunt was a cliche since long before Star Trek was
born. That Star Trek had numerous how-to-deal-with-a-monster stories
was not new, but sometimes Star Trek dealt with the monster du jour in
novel ways.
Example one:
In Devil In The Dark, the "monster" turned out to have perfectly
understandable maternal motives for her rampage. Once this fact was
revealed, Kirk brokered a deal that bought her clemency.
Interesting that it wasn't a one-sided deal. Yes, she was expected to
stop killing miners, and to instruct her offspring to help and not
hinder the miners - but that was with the understanding that the miners
would stop killing her eggs, and would evermore respect her species.
All wrongs were forgiven. A peaceful cooperation replaced the mutual
fear and hate.
Example Two:
Kirk was chasing the Gorn ship with understandable rage in his heart -
until he and the Gorn Captain were isolated to duke it out mano-a-mano
by a meddling third species. In the end, Kirk managed to injure his
Gorn foe and was poised to deliver the killing blow, but he decided
instead to be merciful.
His reason for mercy was (I think) a good one. In the midst of his
staged battle, Kirk had been informed about the Gorn's motive. The Gorn
felt like the humans (that they had exterminated) were invaders that
were a threat. Kirk realized that the Gorn had been afraid of the human
encroachment, and that they were defending their turf.
Kirk's not the only bleeding heart on the Enterprise: McCoy and Spock
also react to this news as if it changes their whole perception about
the entire situation.
Because Kirk now understands the Gorn had comprehensible motives, he
softens, and decides to show mercy to his foe.
The veddy veddy superior Metrons thought this ability to be merciful
proved that humans had promise as a species.
Mercy. Again and again, TOS held it up as among the highest and finest
of virtues.
Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of your
own.
:)
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65780 ] |
Mi, 22 Juni 2005 23:00 |
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On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:30:24 -0400, ToolPackinMama
<laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>Life is not always peaceful and pleasant. Sometimes we are forced by
>circumstances to deal with things or people that are, frankly, horrible.
>
>In the original Star Trek, we met many monsters. Some of them came in
>human form.
>
>The Sci-Fi creature-hunt was a cliche since long before Star Trek was
>born. That Star Trek had numerous how-to-deal-with-a-monster stories
>was not new, but sometimes Star Trek dealt with the monster du jour in
>novel ways.
>
>Example one:
>
>In Devil In The Dark, the "monster" turned out to have perfectly
>understandable maternal motives for her rampage. Once this fact was
>revealed, Kirk brokered a deal that bought her clemency.
>
>Interesting that it wasn't a one-sided deal. Yes, she was expected to
>stop killing miners, and to instruct her offspring to help and not
>hinder the miners - but that was with the understanding that the miners
> would stop killing her eggs, and would evermore respect her species.
>
>All wrongs were forgiven. A peaceful cooperation replaced the mutual
>fear and hate.
>
>Example Two:
>
>Kirk was chasing the Gorn ship with understandable rage in his heart -
>until he and the Gorn Captain were isolated to duke it out mano-a-mano
>by a meddling third species. In the end, Kirk managed to injure his
>Gorn foe and was poised to deliver the killing blow, but he decided
>instead to be merciful.
>
>His reason for mercy was (I think) a good one. In the midst of his
>staged battle, Kirk had been informed about the Gorn's motive. The Gorn
>felt like the humans (that they had exterminated) were invaders that
>were a threat. Kirk realized that the Gorn had been afraid of the human
>encroachment, and that they were defending their turf.
>
>Kirk's not the only bleeding heart on the Enterprise: McCoy and Spock
>also react to this news as if it changes their whole perception about
>the entire situation.
>
>Because Kirk now understands the Gorn had comprehensible motives, he
>softens, and decides to show mercy to his foe.
>
>The veddy veddy superior Metrons thought this ability to be merciful
>proved that humans had promise as a species.
>
>Mercy. Again and again, TOS held it up as among the highest and finest
>of virtues.
>
>Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
>none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of your
>own.
>
>:)
>
>
>
>
>
The Mugato, for one....
-LMB
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65783 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 00:34 |
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Louis M. Brown wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:30:24 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>>Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
>>none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of your
>>own.
> The Mugato, for one....
True. The Mugato got no mercy.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65785 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 01:00 |
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ToolPackinMama <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in
news:11bjpqujut4rqa7 [at] news.supernews.com:
> Louis M. Brown wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:30:24 -0400, ToolPackinMama
>> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>
>>>Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
>>>none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of
>>>your own.
>
>> The Mugato, for one....
>
> True. The Mugato got no mercy.
>
The Salt Vampire but Kirk caught a lot of flack from PETA.
--
---
Have Fun
Night Spirit
The yellow jester does not play
But gently pulls the strings
And smiles as the puppets dance
In the court of the crimson king.
Blog: http://www.livejournal.com/~hipdale/
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65786 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 01:41 |
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The gas cloud monster from "Obsession" -- No mercy. Did they even try
to communicate with it?
The fake vomit monsters from "Operation Annihilate!" -- No mercy.
Vaal got no mercy.
Jack The Ripper -- beam him into space -- "widest possible dispersion"
-- No mercy.
The tribbles -- no mercy.
Zefram Cochrane's companion -- given some mercy, but they tried to
electocute it first.
The phantom Earps from Spectre of the gun -- mercy--Kirk did not kill
them.
Lights of Zetar -- no mercy.
Giant space ameoba -- no mercy. (Immunity Syndrome.)
Lava monster from The Savage Curtain -- he gave THEM mercy.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65787 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 01:41 |
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Nightspirit wrote:
> The Salt Vampire but Kirk caught a lot of flack from PETA.
LOL, but Kirk didn't kill it, McCoy did.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65788 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 01:43 |
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"Nightspirit" <nightspirit2 [at] removethieearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:d9cch9.1f4.1 [at] news.evilcabal.org...
> ToolPackinMama <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in
> news:11bjpqujut4rqa7 [at] news.supernews.com:
>
> > Louis M. Brown wrote:
> >> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:30:24 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> >> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
> >
> >>>Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
> >>>none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of
> >>>your own.
> >
> >> The Mugato, for one....
> >
> > True. The Mugato got no mercy.
> >
>
> The Salt Vampire but Kirk caught a lot of flack from PETA.
And some of the other beingings that were shown no mercy;
Korob and Sylvia
Apollo
Gorgan
"computer/machine monsters" that may or may not have been self aware;
Val,
Landru,
Nomad,
the M5.
--
Qa'pla
Kweeg
Ten of Clubs in the eeeevil Cabal
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65789 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 01:53 |
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tieus wrote:
> The gas cloud monster from "Obsession" -- No mercy. Did they even try
> to communicate with it?
> The fake vomit monsters from "Operation Annihilate!" -- No mercy.
True.
> Vaal got no mercy.
Now see here, Kirk ~tried~ to talk with Vaal. HE TRIED to find a
peaceful solution. Vaal was the one who was merciless in that scenario.
> Jack The Ripper -- beam him into space -- "widest possible dispersion"
> -- No mercy.
> The tribbles -- no mercy.
True...
> Zefram Cochrane's companion -- given some mercy, but they tried to
> electocute it first.
No, sorry, you can't claim that one. "Companion" got away with
everything in the end. Besides, it is specified in the ep that Spock's
device was most emphatically NOT designed to kill (or even really harm)
the creature. The companion DID get mercy.
> The phantom Earps from Spectre of the gun -- mercy--Kirk did not kill
> them.
You can't kill something that's not really alive, but yes, Kirk indeed
showed mercy at the end.
> Lights of Zetar -- no mercy.
> Giant space ameoba -- no mercy. (Immunity Syndrome.)
True.
> Lava monster from The Savage Curtain -- he gave THEM mercy.
Savage Curtain... Perhaps we should have a whole thread devoted to that
one ep.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65790 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 01:58 |
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Kweeg wrote:
> And some of the other beingings that were shown no mercy;
> Korob and Sylvia
> Apollo
> Gorgan
> "computer/machine monsters" that may or may not have been self aware;
> Val,
> Landru,
> Nomad,
> the M5.
>
Gee, I don't know if we should count computers as creatures. A computer
is just a machine, it does only what its programmed to do.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65791 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 02:05 |
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>
> Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
> none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of
> your own.
>
Actually its a couple of TNG episodes that disturb me. One featured
the star crystal. They finally make contact with the creature that
seemed bent on slurping up every lifeform it could find but the
vengeful woman, not knowing what's going on destroys it. I get the
feeling she becomes a leper to the rest of the crew for the remainder
of the voyage.
Then there's another episode about intelligent time traveling beings
who feed on the lifeforce of terminally ill people. The solution? Full
photon spread to obliterate the species! Not much communication and
negotiation there! I fail to see the criteria this crew uses to
determine who lives or dies each week.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65792 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 02:29 |
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Skytech wrote:
>>
>> Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
>> none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of
>> your own.
>>
>
> Actually its a couple of TNG episodes that disturb me. One featured the
> star crystal. They finally make contact with the creature that seemed
> bent on slurping up every lifeform it could find but the vengeful woman,
> not knowing what's going on destroys it. I get the feeling she becomes a
> leper to the rest of the crew for the remainder of the voyage.
>
> Then there's another episode about intelligent time traveling beings who
> feed on the lifeforce of terminally ill people. The solution? Full
> photon spread to obliterate the species! Not much communication and
> negotiation there! I fail to see the criteria this crew uses to
> determine who lives or dies each week.
Good point. Let's see if we can puzzle out what their criterion actully
is.
Let's start with TOS, OK?
In the pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before - the fate of Gary
Mitchell... comments?
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65793 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 02:29 |
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ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Gee, I don't know if we should count computers as creatures. A computer
> is just a machine, it does only what its programmed to do.
Don't we all?
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65794 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 02:41 |
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"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:11bk0j34h3dradc [at] news.supernews.com...
> Skytech wrote:
>>>
>>> Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
>>> none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of your
>>> own.
>>>
>>
>> Actually its a couple of TNG episodes that disturb me. One featured the
>> star crystal. They finally make contact with the creature that seemed
>> bent on slurping up every lifeform it could find but the vengeful woman,
>> not knowing what's going on destroys it. I get the feeling she becomes a
>> leper to the rest of the crew for the remainder of the voyage.
>>
>> Then there's another episode about intelligent time traveling beings who
>> feed on the lifeforce of terminally ill people. The solution? Full photon
>> spread to obliterate the species! Not much communication and negotiation
>> there! I fail to see the criteria this crew uses to determine who lives
>> or dies each week.
>
> Good point. Let's see if we can puzzle out what their criterion actully
> is.
>
> Let's start with TOS, OK?
>
> In the pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before - the fate of Gary Mitchell...
> comments?
Kirk would have preferred to show mercy - this was his friend. But had to
destroy him in self defense.
--
--
Laura Ware (bookwormlady [at] earthlink.net)
The real reason that we can't have the Ten Commandments in a Courthouse! You
cannot post "Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery" and
"Thou Shall Not Lie" in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians!
It creates a hostile work environment.
Visit my blog at http://lauraslook.blogspot.com/
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65796 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 03:30 |
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Ragnar wrote:
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>
>> Gee, I don't know if we should count computers as creatures. A
>> computer is just a machine, it does only what its programmed to do.
>
>
>
> Don't we all?
Do we? That's debatable.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65797 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 03:31 |
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Laura Ware wrote:
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote
>>In the pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before - the fate of Gary Mitchell...
>>comments?
>
>
> Kirk would have preferred to show mercy - this was his friend. But had to
> destroy him in self defense.
True enough.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65798 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 03:47 |
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:34:08 -0400, ToolPackinMama
<laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>Louis M. Brown wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:30:24 -0400, ToolPackinMama
>> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>
>>>Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
>>>none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of your
>>>own.
>
>> The Mugato, for one....
>
>True. The Mugato got no mercy.
Neither one of them did, IIRC...Wasn't that ep "A private little war?"
(The male and female mugatos both got whacked, the first because it
attacked someone (it's been years since I saw the ep,) and Mcoy
phasered it out of existence, and the mate came to avange the first
Mugato, and got whacked itself.
Gorgan is another monster that didn't get much mercy (The Friendly
Angel, )
-LMB
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65799 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 03:49 |
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:58:28 -0400, ToolPackinMama
<laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>Kweeg wrote:
>
>> And some of the other beingings that were shown no mercy;
>> Korob and Sylvia
>> Apollo
>> Gorgan
>> "computer/machine monsters" that may or may not have been self aware;
>> Val,
>> Landru,
>> Nomad,
>> the M5.
>>
>
>Gee, I don't know if we should count computers as creatures. A computer
>is just a machine, it does only what its programmed to do.
Not the ones with AIs. Or is Data only doing what he's programmed?
(He is, effectively, a walking computer, only running on positrons,
not electrons, )
-LMB
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65805 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 04:10 |
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in article 11bk0j34h3dradc [at] news.supernews.com, ToolPackinMama at
laura [at] lauragoodwin.org wrote on 6/22/05 7:29 PM:
> Skytech wrote:
>>>
>>> Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
>>> none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of
>>> your own.
>> Actually its a couple of TNG episodes that disturb me. One featured the
>> star crystal. They finally make contact with the creature that seemed
>> bent on slurping up every lifeform it could find but the vengeful woman,
>> not knowing what's going on destroys it. I get the feeling she becomes a
>> leper to the rest of the crew for the remainder of the voyage.
>>
>> Then there's another episode about intelligent time traveling beings who
>> feed on the lifeforce of terminally ill people. The solution? Full
>> photon spread to obliterate the species! Not much communication and
>> negotiation there! I fail to see the criteria this crew uses to
>> determine who lives or dies each week.
> Good point. Let's see if we can puzzle out what their criterion actully
> is.
>
> Let's start with TOS, OK?
>
> In the pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before - the fate of Gary
> Mitchell... comments?
You can't really make a criterion because none of the series writing really
reflects a coherent, singular vision. GR would babble about the ideals of
the characters, but then you could see that Kirk or even Picard could act
completely out of character from one script to the next.
The demands of injecting 'action-adventure' one week and then some soap box
moralizing the next week made for really schizoid rules of engagement.
The Mugato or the Crystalline Entity were both acting like wild animals and
were treated rather primitively by Kirk and Picard. Well, I suppose to be
fair Picard wasn't responsible for the CE's destruction, but how it could
have been reasoned with is . An 'evolved sensibility' amongst our 23rd and
24th century was as Lily said in ST:FC more or less bullshit...
Take Kirk destroying the incredibly improbable vampire cloud thing that
could travel at warp speed. Such a thing would be too dangerous to try and
study much less reason with, but then like a lot of TOS plots, the story was
a silly pot boiler in the first place. Many of the 'monster' plots are like
that.
The idea injected in "Devil in the Dark" was that intelligent, caring life
forms might not be so easy to spot and this stands apart from the silly BEM
plots. That should have been a no-brainer realization for our intrepid
Starfleet crews, but as a plot it has to be almost as astonishing a
realization for them as it was for the audience at the time.
--
"The cable TV sex channels don't expand our horizons,
don't make us better people, and don't come in clearly enough."
-- Bill Maher
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65806 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 04:35 |
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Elvis Gump <elvisgump.NO [at] SPAM.fastmail.us> wrote in
news:BEDF8459.744A3%elvisgump.NO [at] SPAM.fastmail.us:
> in article 11bk0j34h3dradc [at] news.supernews.com, ToolPackinMama at
> laura [at] lauragoodwin.org wrote on 6/22/05 7:29 PM:
>
>> Skytech wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
>>>> none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of
>>>> your own.
>
>>> Actually its a couple of TNG episodes that disturb me. One featured
>>> the star crystal. They finally make contact with the creature that
>>> seemed bent on slurping up every lifeform it could find but the
>>> vengeful woman, not knowing what's going on destroys it. I get the
>>> feeling she becomes a leper to the rest of the crew for the
>>> remainder of the voyage.
>>>
>>> Then there's another episode about intelligent time traveling beings
>>> who feed on the lifeforce of terminally ill people. The solution?
>>> Full photon spread to obliterate the species! Not much communication
>>> and negotiation there! I fail to see the criteria this crew uses to
>>> determine who lives or dies each week.
>
>> Good point. Let's see if we can puzzle out what their criterion
>> actully is.
>>
>> Let's start with TOS, OK?
>>
>> In the pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before - the fate of Gary
>> Mitchell... comments?
>
> You can't really make a criterion because none of the series writing
> really reflects a coherent, singular vision. GR would babble about the
> ideals of the characters, but then you could see that Kirk or even
> Picard could act completely out of character from one script to the
> next.
>
> The demands of injecting 'action-adventure' one week and then some
> soap box moralizing the next week made for really schizoid rules of
> engagement.
>
> The Mugato or the Crystalline Entity were both acting like wild
> animals and were treated rather primitively by Kirk and Picard. Well,
> I suppose to be fair Picard wasn't responsible for the CE's
> destruction, but how it could have been reasoned with is . An 'evolved
> sensibility' amongst our 23rd and 24th century was as Lily said in
> ST:FC more or less bullshit...
Kind of like The Doctor and the Daleks. The Daleks can't be reasoned
with yet The Doctor has had many chances to completely whip out the
Daleks but can't bring himself to do it.
> Take Kirk destroying the incredibly improbable vampire cloud thing
> that could travel at warp speed. Such a thing would be too dangerous
> to try and study much less reason with, but then like a lot of TOS
> plots, the story was a silly pot boiler in the first place. Many of
> the 'monster' plots are like that.
True
> The idea injected in "Devil in the Dark" was that intelligent, caring
> life forms might not be so easy to spot and this stands apart from the
> silly BEM plots. That should have been a no-brainer realization for
> our intrepid Starfleet crews, but as a plot it has to be almost as
> astonishing a realization for them as it was for the audience at the
> time.
Then again it can be argued on who were the real devils The miners or the
Creature.
--
---
Have Fun
Night Spirit
The yellow jester does not play
But gently pulls the strings
And smiles as the puppets dance
In the court of the crimson king.
Blog: http://www.livejournal.com/~hipdale/
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65807 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 04:47 |
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"Ragnar" <rworkss [at] comsouth.net> wrote in message
news:lLCdnbD-0_3knyffRVn-qw [at] giganews.com...
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>
> > Gee, I don't know if we should count computers as creatures. A computer
> > is just a machine, it does only what its programmed to do.
>
>
> Don't we all?
Heh.
There goes TPM again changing the parameters of the debate AFTER it's
started with the "World according to Laura (tm)," she says "monster" and
then only wants to use the word "creature."
--
Qa'pla
Kweeg
Ten of Clubs in the eeeevil Cabal
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65808 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 05:21 |
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In article <i85kb19q07s5ep765bido2nokhus0804mi [at] 4ax.com>,
phyphor [at] rocketmail.com says...
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:34:08 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>
> >Louis M. Brown wrote:
> >> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:30:24 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> >> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
> >
> >>>Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
> >>>none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of your
> >>>own.
> >
> >> The Mugato, for one....
> >
> >True. The Mugato got no mercy.
>
> Neither one of them did, IIRC...Wasn't that ep "A private little war?"
>
> (The male and female mugatos both got whacked, the first because it
> attacked someone (it's been years since I saw the ep,) and Mcoy
> phasered it out of existence, and the mate came to avange the first
> Mugato, and got whacked itself.
>
> Gorgan is another monster that didn't get much mercy (The Friendly
> Angel, )
He deserved no mercy -- that was some of the worst acting I've ever seen.
ww
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65809 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 05:27 |
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In article <d9cp2i.39c.1 [at] news.evilcabal.org>,
nightspirit2 [at] removethieearthlink.net says...
> Elvis Gump <elvisgump.NO [at] SPAM.fastmail.us> wrote in
> news:BEDF8459.744A3%elvisgump.NO [at] SPAM.fastmail.us:
>
> > in article 11bk0j34h3dradc [at] news.supernews.com, ToolPackinMama at
> > laura [at] lauragoodwin.org wrote on 6/22/05 7:29 PM:
> >
> >> Skytech wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
> >>>> none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of
> >>>> your own.
> >
> >>> Actually its a couple of TNG episodes that disturb me. One featured
> >>> the star crystal. They finally make contact with the creature that
> >>> seemed bent on slurping up every lifeform it could find but the
> >>> vengeful woman, not knowing what's going on destroys it. I get the
> >>> feeling she becomes a leper to the rest of the crew for the
> >>> remainder of the voyage.
> >>>
> >>> Then there's another episode about intelligent time traveling beings
> >>> who feed on the lifeforce of terminally ill people. The solution?
> >>> Full photon spread to obliterate the species! Not much communication
> >>> and negotiation there! I fail to see the criteria this crew uses to
> >>> determine who lives or dies each week.
> >
> >> Good point. Let's see if we can puzzle out what their criterion
> >> actully is.
> >>
> >> Let's start with TOS, OK?
> >>
> >> In the pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before - the fate of Gary
> >> Mitchell... comments?
> >
> > You can't really make a criterion because none of the series writing
> > really reflects a coherent, singular vision. GR would babble about the
> > ideals of the characters, but then you could see that Kirk or even
> > Picard could act completely out of character from one script to the
> > next.
> >
> > The demands of injecting 'action-adventure' one week and then some
> > soap box moralizing the next week made for really schizoid rules of
> > engagement.
> >
> > The Mugato or the Crystalline Entity were both acting like wild
> > animals and were treated rather primitively by Kirk and Picard. Well,
> > I suppose to be fair Picard wasn't responsible for the CE's
> > destruction, but how it could have been reasoned with is . An 'evolved
> > sensibility' amongst our 23rd and 24th century was as Lily said in
> > ST:FC more or less bullshit...
>
> Kind of like The Doctor and the Daleks. The Daleks can't be reasoned
> with yet The Doctor has had many chances to completely whip out the
> Daleks but can't bring himself to do it.
>
> > Take Kirk destroying the incredibly improbable vampire cloud thing
> > that could travel at warp speed. Such a thing would be too dangerous
> > to try and study much less reason with, but then like a lot of TOS
> > plots, the story was a silly pot boiler in the first place. Many of
> > the 'monster' plots are like that.
>
> True
>
> > The idea injected in "Devil in the Dark" was that intelligent, caring
> > life forms might not be so easy to spot and this stands apart from the
> > silly BEM plots. That should have been a no-brainer realization for
> > our intrepid Starfleet crews, but as a plot it has to be almost as
> > astonishing a realization for them as it was for the audience at the
> > time.
>
> Then again it can be argued on who were the real devils The miners or the
> Creature.
The real devil was/is unreasoning fear -- and both sides were equally
guilty.
Yes, yes, I know -- what a squishy soft, namby-pamby, liberal kind of
attitude. I should be ashamed of myself.
ww
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65810 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 05:28 |
|
"Wandering Wastrel" <me [at] oddswithmyself.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d23f4d2cf7b998198969c [at] news.pa.comcast.giganews.com...
>>
>> Gorgan is another monster that didn't get much mercy (The Friendly
>> Angel, )
>
> He deserved no mercy -- that was some of the worst acting I've ever seen.
And he was a lawyer. Death was too good for him.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65812 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 05:42 |
|
Wandering Wastrel wrote:
> In article <i85kb19q07s5ep765bido2nokhus0804mi [at] 4ax.com>,
> phyphor [at] rocketmail.com says...
> > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:34:08 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> > <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
> >
> > >Louis M. Brown wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:30:24 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> > >> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >>>Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
> > >>>none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of your
> > >>>own.
> > >
> > >> The Mugato, for one....
> > >
> > >True. The Mugato got no mercy.
> >
> > Neither one of them did, IIRC...Wasn't that ep "A private little war?"
> >
> > (The male and female mugatos both got whacked, the first because it
> > attacked someone (it's been years since I saw the ep,) and Mcoy
> > phasered it out of existence, and the mate came to avange the first
> > Mugato, and got whacked itself.
> >
> > Gorgan is another monster that didn't get much mercy (The Friendly
> > Angel, )
>
> He deserved no mercy -- that was some of the worst acting I've ever seen.
>
I wouldn't even dignify that performance with the word acting.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #65816 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 09:59 |
|
Lest we forget, Kirk DID kick an alien in it's genetilia (located near it's
knee). :-D
That's the way I would deal with a monster.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66318 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 12:09 |
|
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:29:47 -0400, Ragnar <rworkss [at] comsouth.net>
wrote:
>ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>
>> Gee, I don't know if we should count computers as creatures. A computer
>> is just a machine, it does only what its programmed to do.
>
>
>Don't we all?
Only if this "we" you speak of are all retarded. And sadly,
that may well be true for the great majority out there.
Yet some of us possess this thing called "intelligence",
which, if properly utilized, will override "programming" every time.
And as a plus . . . it's natural, good for the environment,
kid friendly, and non-fattening.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66321 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 16:35 |
|
"Wandering Wastrel" <me [at] oddswithmyself.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d23f4d2cf7b998198969c [at] news.pa.comcast.giganews.com...
> In article <i85kb19q07s5ep765bido2nokhus0804mi [at] 4ax.com>,
> phyphor [at] rocketmail.com says...
> > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:34:08 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> > <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
> >
> > >Louis M. Brown wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:30:24 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> > >> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >>>Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
> > >>>none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of
your
> > >>>own.
> > >
> > >> The Mugato, for one....
> > >
> > >True. The Mugato got no mercy.
> >
> > Neither one of them did, IIRC...Wasn't that ep "A private little war?"
> >
> > (The male and female mugatos both got whacked, the first because it
> > attacked someone (it's been years since I saw the ep,) and Mcoy
> > phasered it out of existence, and the mate came to avange the first
> > Mugato, and got whacked itself.
> >
> > Gorgan is another monster that didn't get much mercy (The Friendly
> > Angel, )
>
> He deserved no mercy -- that was some of the worst acting I've ever seen.
>
Gorgan: "Damnit, I'm a lawyer, Jim, not an actor!"
> ww
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66324 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 16:40 |
|
"Louis M. Brown" <phyphor [at] rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:afkjb19o97u5ttkg1480qng5c085jj56hm [at] 4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:30:24 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>
> >Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
> >none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of your
> >own.
> >
> >:)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> The Mugato, for one....
> -LMB
>
How to cope with a monster?
Give it a microphone and make it a lounge lizard?
:)
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66331 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 19:15 |
|
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Kweeg wrote:
>
>> And some of the other beingings that were shown no mercy;
>> Korob and Sylvia
>> Apollo
>> Gorgan
>> "computer/machine monsters" that may or may not have been self aware;
>> Val,
>> Landru,
>> Nomad,
>> the M5.
>>
>
> Gee, I don't know if we should count computers as creatures. A computer
> is just a machine, it does only what its programmed to do.
I don't know--Rayna was a computer, and Kirk & Flint killed her on
purpose, despite Spock's warning to both of them to stop what they were
doing.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66333 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 19:19 |
|
whodunit wrote:
> I don't know--Rayna was a computer, and Kirk & Flint killed her on
> purpose
Wait, that was not deliberate on their part. Nobody knew that "strong
emotion" (IMHO, actually logical confusion) would cause her to
self-destruct. Nobody wanted that outcome.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66335 ] |
Do, 23 Juni 2005 19:30 |
|
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> whodunit wrote:
>
>> I don't know--Rayna was a computer, and Kirk & Flint killed her on
>> purpose
>
>
> Wait, that was not deliberate on their part. Nobody knew that "strong
> emotion" (IMHO, actually logical confusion) would cause her to
> self-destruct. Nobody wanted that outcome.
Why even bring Rayna up? She was not a monster.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66362 ] |
Fr, 24 Juni 2005 00:17 |
|
>
> Let's start with TOS, OK?
>
> In the pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before - the fate of Gary
> Mitchell... comments?
Insanity tied to increasingly corrupting power. Each of the three
instances showed the possessor became less connected to 'lesser' life.
Even the woman possessed with the power realized this and knew what
must be done. The story showed Kirk wanted anything to save his friend
but had to make a final choice. In this case, he had no other choice.
As to whether this was right or wrong, what would an ant do if it knew
another ant was becoming a human being capable of exterminating other
'lesser' lifeforms with terrible power almost unimaginable, relatively
speaking, such as indiscriminant pesticides or the H bomb?
For all we know the energy barrier is the womb of Q beings.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66370 ] |
Fr, 24 Juni 2005 02:21 |
|
Skytech wrote:
> For all we know the energy barrier is the womb of Q beings.
Hmm!
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66393 ] |
Fr, 24 Juni 2005 09:35 |
|
Skytech wrote:
>>
>> Let's start with TOS, OK?
>>
>> In the pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before - the fate of Gary
>> Mitchell... comments?
>
>
> Insanity tied to increasingly corrupting power. Each of the three
> instances showed the possessor became less connected to 'lesser' life.
> Even the woman possessed with the power realized this and knew what must
> be done. The story showed Kirk wanted anything to save his friend but
> had to make a final choice. In this case, he had no other choice.
>
> As to whether this was right or wrong, what would an ant do if it knew
> another ant was becoming a human being capable of exterminating other
> 'lesser' lifeforms with terrible power almost unimaginable, relatively
> speaking, such as indiscriminant pesticides or the H bomb?
>
> For all we know the energy barrier is the womb of Q beings.
Isn't there a novel that says the barrier actually *is* Q?
Something about being injured in a fight with another Q,
and he had to drift around in a pure energy state for a
while as he got better?
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66932 ] |
Fr, 24 Juni 2005 17:28 |
|
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> whodunit wrote:
>
>> I don't know--Rayna was a computer, and Kirk & Flint killed her on
>> purpose
>
>
> Wait, that was not deliberate on their part. Nobody knew that "strong
> emotion" (IMHO, actually logical confusion) would cause her to
> self-destruct. Nobody wanted that outcome.
Spock warned both of them *repeatedly* of the dangers to Rayna, but in
their blood lust they were only thinking of *themselves* and not her--to
me that's the same as killing on purpose, whether they ~intended~ her
death to happen or not.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66937 ] |
Fr, 24 Juni 2005 19:38 |
|
"Graham Kennedy" <graham [at] ditl.org> wrote in message
news:1JOue.51193$Vj3.30004 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Skytech wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Let's start with TOS, OK?
> >>
> >> In the pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before - the fate of Gary
> >> Mitchell... comments?
> >
> >
> > Insanity tied to increasingly corrupting power. Each of the three
> > instances showed the possessor became less connected to 'lesser' life.
> > Even the woman possessed with the power realized this and knew what must
> > be done. The story showed Kirk wanted anything to save his friend but
> > had to make a final choice. In this case, he had no other choice.
> >
> > As to whether this was right or wrong, what would an ant do if it knew
> > another ant was becoming a human being capable of exterminating other
> > 'lesser' lifeforms with terrible power almost unimaginable, relatively
> > speaking, such as indiscriminant pesticides or the H bomb?
> >
> > For all we know the energy barrier is the womb of Q beings.
>
> Isn't there a novel that says the barrier actually *is* Q?
> Something about being injured in a fight with another Q,
> and he had to drift around in a pure energy state for a
> while as he got better?
"Q Squared," one of the few ST books I've read, years ago. IIRC, Q is
banished to the barrier. As he's been there a while, had no contact with
anyone, and was not quite himself, he "reaches out" to a starship trying to
go thought the barrier. This results in Mitchell and Dehner being altered.
--
Qa'pla
Kweeg
Ten of Clubs in the eeeevil Cabal
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66939 ] |
Fr, 24 Juni 2005 21:14 |
|
Kweeg wrote:
> "Graham Kennedy" <graham [at] ditl.org> wrote in message
> news:1JOue.51193$Vj3.30004 [at] fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
>>Skytech wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Let's start with TOS, OK?
>>>>
>>>>In the pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before - the fate of Gary
>>>>Mitchell... comments?
>>>
>>>
>>>Insanity tied to increasingly corrupting power. Each of the three
>>>instances showed the possessor became less connected to 'lesser' life.
>>>Even the woman possessed with the power realized this and knew what must
>>>be done. The story showed Kirk wanted anything to save his friend but
>>>had to make a final choice. In this case, he had no other choice.
>>>
>>>As to whether this was right or wrong, what would an ant do if it knew
>>>another ant was becoming a human being capable of exterminating other
>>>'lesser' lifeforms with terrible power almost unimaginable, relatively
>>>speaking, such as indiscriminant pesticides or the H bomb?
>>>
>>>For all we know the energy barrier is the womb of Q beings.
>>
>>Isn't there a novel that says the barrier actually *is* Q?
>>Something about being injured in a fight with another Q,
>>and he had to drift around in a pure energy state for a
>>while as he got better?
>
>
> "Q Squared," one of the few ST books I've read, years ago. IIRC, Q is
> banished to the barrier. As he's been there a while, had no contact with
> anyone, and was not quite himself, he "reaches out" to a starship trying to
> go thought the barrier. This results in Mitchell and Dehner being altered.
Interesting tie-in, and a good way to explain why there's
no barrier there today but there is in TOS.
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66940 ] |
Fr, 24 Juni 2005 22:02 |
|
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Life is not always peaceful and pleasant. Sometimes we are forced by
> circumstances to deal with things or people that are, frankly, horrible.
>
Is your cable stuck on C-SPAN?
> In the original Star Trek, we met many monsters. Some of them came in
> human form.
>
Remember in "Aliens 2," Sigourney Weaver compared the aliens- who were
just operating on their biological instincts- with Paul Reiser's
character, who had a serious moral deficiency.
> The Sci-Fi creature-hunt was a cliche since long before Star Trek was
> born. That Star Trek had numerous how-to-deal-with-a-monster stories
> was not new, but sometimes Star Trek dealt with the monster du jour in
> novel ways.
>
> Example one:
>
> In Devil In The Dark, the "monster" turned out to have perfectly
> understandable maternal motives for her rampage. Once this fact was
> revealed, Kirk brokered a deal that bought her clemency.
>
> Interesting that it wasn't a one-sided deal. Yes, she was expected to
> stop killing miners, and to instruct her offspring to help and not
> hinder the miners - but that was with the understanding that the miners
> would stop killing her eggs, and would evermore respect her species.
>
> All wrongs were forgiven. A peaceful cooperation replaced the mutual
> fear and hate.
>
It was the sort of twist one would expect on the old "Twilight Zone."
All the miners could see was this creature hunting and killing them; it
was only after Spock made contact that we find out *why*, which then
put the whole situation in a different light. I still remember the
mother Horta speaking through Spock, calling the humans "monsters,"
which we were, to the Horta.
> Example Two:
>
> Kirk was chasing the Gorn ship with understandable rage in his heart -
> until he and the Gorn Captain were isolated to duke it out mano-a-mano
> by a meddling third species. In the end, Kirk managed to injure his
> Gorn foe and was poised to deliver the killing blow, but he decided
> instead to be merciful.
>
> His reason for mercy was (I think) a good one. In the midst of his
> staged battle, Kirk had been informed about the Gorn's motive. The Gorn
> felt like the humans (that they had exterminated) were invaders that
> were a threat. Kirk realized that the Gorn had been afraid of the human
> encroachment, and that they were defending their turf.
>
> Kirk's not the only bleeding heart on the Enterprise: McCoy and Spock
> also react to this news as if it changes their whole perception about
> the entire situation.
>
> Because Kirk now understands the Gorn had comprehensible motives, he
> softens, and decides to show mercy to his foe.
>
It's the *motive* that sets these TOS eps aside from the standard
monster hunt: The Horta and the Gorn weren't mindless killing machines.
They had *reasons* for killing, and once Our Heroes discovered those
reasons it affected their perception of th esituation, and their
subsequent actions.
> The veddy veddy superior Metrons thought this ability to be merciful
> proved that humans had promise as a species.
>
> Mercy. Again and again, TOS held it up as among the highest and finest
> of virtues.
>
> Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
> none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of your
> own.
>
> :)
In "Obsession" the vampire cloud may or may not have been intelligent-
the script deliberately left that question hanging there. However, the
creature was posing a threat to a large section of the galaxy (at least
a thousand light-years across), and if it succeeded in spawning it
could well have run rampant.
Of course, the *focus* of the episode wasn't the monster hunt itself,
as was shown in the title.
*****
The Joker in the Eeeeeeevil Cabal Deck of Cards.
Once we lose magnetic containment, Mr. Antimatter is no longer our
friend.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #66941 ] |
Fr, 24 Juni 2005 22:11 |
|
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Kweeg wrote:
>
> > And some of the other beingings that were shown no mercy;
> > Korob and Sylvia
> > Apollo
> > Gorgan
> > "computer/machine monsters" that may or may not have been self aware;
> > Val,
> > Landru,
> > Nomad,
> > the M5.
> >
>
> Gee, I don't know if we should count computers as creatures. A computer
> is just a machine, it does only what its programmed to do.
We are machines too- infinitely more complex than any artificial
computer (thus far), but we still have our programming. It's just that
our programming includes algorithms to alter itself to fit changing
situations and the ability to analyze data outside the confines of
strict logic.
We'll never know how sentiant Vaal was. Landru seemed almost sad at
having to destroy the "invaders of the Body." Nomad never showed any
indication it could reprogram itself, or in any way operate outside
it's parameters of seeking perfection and destroying everything else.
M5 was complex enough to pick up the paranoia and persecution complexes
from Daystrom, and was able to operate outside its designated
programming. I would consider M5 sentient- as fucked up as a football
bat, but sentient.
*****
The Joker in the Eeeeeeevil Cabal Deck of Cards.
Once we lose magnetic containment, Mr. Antimatter is no longer our
friend.
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| Re: How to cope with a monster... Star Trek style! [message #189959 ] |
Sa, 24 Dezember 2005 16:24 |
|
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:30:24 -0400, ToolPackinMama
<laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>Life is not always peaceful and pleasant. Sometimes we are forced by
>circumstances to deal with things or people that are, frankly, horrible.
>
>In the original Star Trek, we met many monsters. Some of them came in
>human form.
>
>The Sci-Fi creature-hunt was a cliche since long before Star Trek was
>born. That Star Trek had numerous how-to-deal-with-a-monster stories
>was not new, but sometimes Star Trek dealt with the monster du jour in
>novel ways.
>
>Example one:
>
>In Devil In The Dark, the "monster" turned out to have perfectly
>understandable maternal motives for her rampage. Once this fact was
>revealed, Kirk brokered a deal that bought her clemency.
>
>Interesting that it wasn't a one-sided deal. Yes, she was expected to
>stop killing miners, and to instruct her offspring to help and not
>hinder the miners - but that was with the understanding that the miners
> would stop killing her eggs, and would evermore respect her species.
>
>All wrongs were forgiven. A peaceful cooperation replaced the mutual
>fear and hate.
>
>Example Two:
>
>Kirk was chasing the Gorn ship with understandable rage in his heart -
>until he and the Gorn Captain were isolated to duke it out mano-a-mano
>by a meddling third species. In the end, Kirk managed to injure his
>Gorn foe and was poised to deliver the killing blow, but he decided
>instead to be merciful.
>
>His reason for mercy was (I think) a good one. In the midst of his
>staged battle, Kirk had been informed about the Gorn's motive. The Gorn
>felt like the humans (that they had exterminated) were invaders that
>were a threat. Kirk realized that the Gorn had been afraid of the human
>encroachment, and that they were defending their turf.
>
>Kirk's not the only bleeding heart on the Enterprise: McCoy and Spock
>also react to this news as if it changes their whole perception about
>the entire situation.
>
>Because Kirk now understands the Gorn had comprehensible motives, he
>softens, and decides to show mercy to his foe.
>
>The veddy veddy superior Metrons thought this ability to be merciful
>proved that humans had promise as a species.
>
>Mercy. Again and again, TOS held it up as among the highest and finest
>of virtues.
>
>Of course, not all monsters deserve mercy... and several in TOS got
>none. I'm sure you lovely people can come up with some examples of your
>own.
>
>:)
>
>
>
>
I dunno . . .
Right off hand, I can't think of any.
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