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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Army of the Dead question
| Army of the Dead question [message #60149] |
Mo, 13 Juni 2005 04:51 |
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I was discussing my tolkien themed art car with some people today,
and got asked a question I haven't seen in any of the FAQs or
googled up posts.
While in the interesting situation of discussing LotR with three
mormon missionaries (who pleasantly didn't proselytize me at all)
they asked why Aragorn didn't use the Army of the Dead in the
attack at Mordor. My spur of the moment response was that, as the
curse they were under revolved around denying help to a King of
Gondor in defense of the realm, they could only be used by an
heir for that same purpose: defense of the realm.
Does this sound correct to you? Also, what with Sauron being
a necromancer, could they actually have been used against him or
his armies (as PJ did in the movie) or would he have been able
to turn them or wrest control of them?
--
Dennis is currently having a passionate, if entirely
imaginary love affair with Susan Sto Helit of Discworld.
If you're looking for the spamtrap, get to the 'POINT'.
http://users2.ev1.net/~dennisdillow/
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| Re: Army of the Dead question [message #60151 ] |
Mo, 13 Juni 2005 06:02 |
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denaldo wrote:
> While in the interesting situation of discussing LotR with three
> mormon missionaries (who pleasantly didn't proselytize me at all)
> they asked why Aragorn didn't use the Army of the Dead in the
> attack at Mordor. My spur of the moment response was that, as the
> curse they were under revolved around denying help to a King of
> Gondor in defense of the realm, they could only be used by an
> heir for that same purpose: defense of the realm.
> Does this sound correct to you?
I think that had they acted in any capacity against Sauron it would have
been sufficient to fulfill their oath. In that they aided Aragorn at the
Field of Pelennor, they had fulfilled their oath and there was nothing
left to bind them to Arda. They were not really useful as a fighting
force per se, but Aragorn was able to use the fear that they instilled
in Men as a weapon. Even if he had been able to delay their departure
and use them at the Black Gate as well, I don't think that they would
have been of much use against the hosts of Mordor.
Also, what with Sauron being
> a necromancer, could they actually have been used against him or
> his armies (as PJ did in the movie) or would he have been able
> to turn them or wrest control of them?
The Dead Men of Dunharrow could certainly betray Gondor again of their
own free will, but after suffering in an undead state for thousands of
years as punishment for doing it once before, I would think that they
had learned their lesson!
Sauron does not have inherent control over Men or their spirits, except
in the case of the Nazgul which of course required Rings of Power.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
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| Re: Army of the Dead question [message #60152 ] |
Mo, 13 Juni 2005 07:54 |
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"Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0z7re.13383$lI2.213 [at] tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> denaldo wrote:
>
> > While in the interesting situation of discussing LotR with three
> > mormon missionaries (who pleasantly didn't proselytize me at all)
> > they asked why Aragorn didn't use the Army of the Dead in the
> > attack at Mordor. My spur of the moment response was that, as the
> > curse they were under revolved around denying help to a King of
> > Gondor in defense of the realm, they could only be used by an
> > heir for that same purpose: defense of the realm.
> > Does this sound correct to you?
>
> I think that had they acted in any capacity against Sauron it would have
> been sufficient to fulfill their oath. In that they aided Aragorn at the
> Field of Pelennor,
They didn't aid Aragorn at the Field of Pellenor - that was only in the
movie.
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| Re: Army of the Dead question [message #60997 ] |
Mo, 13 Juni 2005 12:25 |
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> I was discussing my tolkien themed art car with some people today,
> and got asked a question I haven't seen in any of the FAQs or
> googled up posts.
> While in the interesting situation of discussing LotR with three
> mormon missionaries (who pleasantly didn't proselytize me at all)
> they asked why Aragorn didn't use the Army of the Dead in the
> attack at Mordor. My spur of the moment response was that, as the
> curse they were under revolved around denying help to a King of
> Gondor in defense of the realm, they could only be used by an
> heir for that same purpose: defense of the realm.
> Does this sound correct to you? Also, what with Sauron being
> a necromancer, could they actually have been used against him or
> his armies (as PJ did in the movie) or would he have been able
> to turn them or wrest control of them?
Maybe the army was only any use against men, not orcs. They were used to
scare the southerners off the corsairs, not fight them. Withouth the ability
to fight they might not have been much use
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| Re: Army of the Dead question [message #61000 ] |
Mo, 13 Juni 2005 15:04 |
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Michael Cole wrote:
> They didn't aid Aragorn at the Field of Pellenor - that was only in
> the movie.
Without being pedantic, I meant that Aragorn's arrival at Harlond (which
is within the Rammas Echor and therefore "The Pelennor") turned the tide
of "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields".
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
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| Re: Army of the Dead question [message #61017 ] |
Mo, 13 Juni 2005 23:48 |
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Bill O'Meally <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> wrote:
> Michael Cole wrote:
>
>> They didn't aid Aragorn at the Field of Pellenor - that was only in
>> the movie.
>
> Without being pedantic, I meant that Aragorn's arrival at Harlond
> (which is within the Rammas Echor and therefore "The Pelennor")
> turned the tide of "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields".
Without being pedantic, you are missing the point. The Army of the Dead
arriving with Aragorn at the Harlond (which I agree is still part of the
Battle of the Pelennor Fields) is still only in the movie.
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| Re: Army of the Dead question [message #61019 ] |
Di, 14 Juni 2005 00:39 |
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In message <news:0z7re.13383$lI2.213 [at] tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com>
"Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> enriched us with:
>
> denaldo wrote:
>>
>> While in the interesting situation of discussing LotR with three
>> mormon missionaries (who pleasantly didn't proselytize me at all)
>> they asked why Aragorn didn't use the Army of the Dead in the
>> attack at Mordor. My spur of the moment response was that, as
>> the curse they were under revolved around denying help to a King
>> of Gondor in defense of the realm, they could only be used by an
>> heir for that same purpose: defense of the realm.
>
> I think that had they acted in any capacity against Sauron it
> would have been sufficient to fulfill their oath.
That is my impression as well. "But the oath that they broke was to
fight against Sauron, and they must fight therefore, if they are to
fulfil it." [Aragorn, LotR V,2 'The Passing of the Grey Company']
> In that they aided Aragorn at the Field of Pelennor,
by allowing him to get there in time and with a force of fighting men.
> they had fulfilled their oath and there was nothing left to bind
> them to Arda.
" Then Aragorn said: 'The hour is come at last. Now I go
to Pelargir upon Anduin, and ye shall come after me. And
when all this land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I
will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and
depart for ever. For I am Elessar, Isildur's heir of
Gondor.'"
And
" Hear now the words of the Heir of Isildur! Your oath is
fulfilled. Go back and trouble not the valleys ever again!
Depart and be at rest!"
I think that they could leave at that point only because Aragorn chose
to hold their oath fulfilled then. If he had chosen to require more of
them, they would have been obliged to do that in order to find peace
(whether they could have chosen to disobey him is another matter).
> They were not really useful as a fighting force per se, but Aragorn
> was able to use the fear that they instilled in Men as a weapon.
Yes. And that only because he didn't have to have the men of Gondor
with him.
"But defenders and foes alike gave up the battle and fled
when we came, crying out that the King of the Dead was
upon them. Only Angbor, Lord of Lamedon, had the heart to
abide us; and Aragorn bade him gather his folk and come
behind, if they dared, when the Grey Host had passed."
The Grey Host was indeed a double-edged weapon, that hit both allies
and foes equally. Only the most stout-hearted were able to fight
alongside the dead -- and the Elves; "for I felt not the horror, and I
feared not the shadows of Men".
> Even if he had been able to delay their departure and use them at
> the Black Gate as well, I don't think that they would have been of
> much use against the hosts of Mordor.
They would have been good against the hosts of the Southrons and the
Easterlings, but bringing them would have left Aragorn with only a
handful of the bravest soldiers of Gondor and Rohan, and if the Dead
didn't affect the Orcs and the Trolls (which I suspect they wouldn't
have), then Aragorn would have been in a worse situation (with far less
than half the men to fight half the enemy).
>> Also, what with Sauron being a necromancer, could they actually
>> have been used against him or his armies (as PJ did in the movie)
>> or would he have been able to turn them or wrest control of them?
>
> The Dead Men of Dunharrow could certainly betray Gondor again of
> their own free will, but after suffering in an undead state for
> thousands of years as punishment for doing it once before, I would
> think that they had learned their lesson!
Quite likely.
I assume that there was some kind of obligation involved in their
state. They may have been able to refuse Aragorn, but I think it would
have been more difficult at least than it was to refuse Isildur.
The best analogy I can come up with is that betraying Isildur was like
walking down a straight road, but by the time of Aragorn, betraying him
would have been like climbing a very steep incline (and helping him
similarly like rolling downhill -- just stay clear of the obstacles).
They still had a choice, but choosing the betrayal again would have
been much more difficult for them.
> Sauron does not have inherent control over Men or their spirits,
> except in the case of the Nazgul which of course required Rings of
> Power.
Isn't there something in that 'magia' and 'goeteia' letter . . .
<browsing letters>
"The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is
specially about it) domination of other 'free' wills.
The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits,
but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical
world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and
things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate."
[Letter #154]
Not quite as clear as I recalled it, but I don't think that Sauron's
power over the spirits of Men was any greater when they were dead than
it was when they were alive.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.
- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
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| Re: Army of the Dead question [message #61023 ] |
Di, 14 Juni 2005 01:33 |
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> Without being pedantic, you are missing the point. The Army of the
> Dead arriving with Aragorn at the Harlond (which I agree is still
> part of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields) is still only in the movie.
Right you are! The AotD were dismissed at Pelargir. This is the perfect
excuse to read the books again. :-)
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
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| Re: Army of the Dead question [message #61024 ] |
Di, 14 Juni 2005 04:26 |
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:0z7re.13383$lI2.213 [at] tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com>
> "Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> enriched us with:
>> In that they aided Aragorn at the Field of Pelennor,
>
> by allowing him to get there in time and with a force of fighting men.
That's what I meant. Thanks for clarifying. :-)
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
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| Re: Army of the Dead question [message #61589 ] |
Di, 14 Juni 2005 21:49 |
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denaldo (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<11apspen87q5n1c [at] corp.supernews.com>:
> Also, what with Sauron being
> a necromancer
I'm not convinced that Sauron was a necromancer in the literal meaning of
the words. True the word is used passim in The Hobbit (where the name
Sauron is not used), but the identity of the two characters is fixed by
info gleaned from the Appendices. Anyway the n-word is simply too narrow a
constraint for a Maia-turned-bad.
--
A couple of questions. How do I stop the wires short-circuiting, and what's
this nylon washer for?
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
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