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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Required reading - Empty America
| Required reading - Empty America [message #60141] |
So, 12 Juni 2005 22:52 |
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From soc.history.what-if
Empty America (and other alternate histories)
http://www.althist.com/homepage.htm
Provocative and educational (if one follows up by researching the OTL).
More importantly, it's also ruddy hilarious.
--
Cheers, ymt.
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| OT - Alternate science timelines (was Re: Required reading - Empty America) [message #60144 ] |
So, 12 Juni 2005 23:22 |
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Yuk Tang <jimlaker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> From soc.history.what-if
>
> Empty America (and other alternate histories)
> http://www.althist.com/homepage.htm
>
> Provocative and educational (if one follows up by researching the
> OTL). More importantly, it's also ruddy hilarious.
Bit long for quick reading.
Talking of alternate timelines, I've often wondered how much the
timelines of scientific inventions and discoveries can be tampered with.
Is there a way of identifying crucial discoveries that _must_ take place
before the others can take place?
Is there any reason why fire has to be discovered before anything else?
That is probably a pretty good preresquisite for everything else. Some
discoveries require lots of basic research. Chemistry can't be
unravelled overnight, and neither can physics and biology.
Another way to put this is: could the Ancient Greeks have invented a
transistor radio, or a valve-operated radio, or a mechanical computer,
or the atom bomb, or advanced surgical techniques, or the microscope, or
the telescope?
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: OT - Alternate science timelines (was Re: Required reading - Empty America) [message #61590 ] |
Di, 14 Juni 2005 21:55 |
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Christopher Kreuzer (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
message <PI1re.49524$G8.7324 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
> Yuk Tang <jimlaker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>> From soc.history.what-if
>>
>> Empty America (and other alternate histories)
>> http://www.althist.com/homepage.htm
>>
>> Provocative and educational (if one follows up by researching the
>> OTL). More importantly, it's also ruddy hilarious.
>
> Bit long for quick reading.
>
> Talking of alternate timelines, I've often wondered how much the
> timelines of scientific inventions and discoveries can be tampered with.
> Is there a way of identifying crucial discoveries that _must_ take place
> before the others can take place?
>
> Is there any reason why fire has to be discovered before anything else?
> That is probably a pretty good preresquisite for everything else. Some
> discoveries require lots of basic research. Chemistry can't be
> unravelled overnight, and neither can physics and biology.
>
> Another way to put this is: could the Ancient Greeks have invented a
> transistor radio, or a valve-operated radio, or a mechanical computer,
> or the atom bomb, or advanced surgical techniques, or the microscope, or
> the telescope?
>
> Christopher
>
They require evolution of *mindset* to the point where the concept exists.
The Ancient Greeks' concept of number included no zero, and did not have a
positional notation but used letters of the alphabet for units, tens and
hundreds. (They did realise that this usage was a bit constrained through
lack of symbols, to the extent that they retained two otherwise obsolete
letters to stand for further digits.) Without a full concept of number, the
necessity of a mechanical calculator would not have arisen, so even if
technology had permitted the construction of one there would have been
nothing for it to do.
--
A couple of questions. How do I stop the wires short-circuiting, and what's
this nylon washer for?
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
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| Re: OT - Alternate science timelines (was Re: Required reading - Empty America) [message #61591 ] |
Di, 14 Juni 2005 22:04 |
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Christopher Kreuzer (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
message <PI1re.49524$G8.7324 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
> Another way to put this is: could the Ancient Greeks have invented a
> transistor radio, or a valve-operated radio, or a mechanical computer,
> or the atom bomb, or advanced surgical techniques, or the microscope, or
> the telescope?
The most reasonable alternative timeline, on which the world is even more
scientifically advanced than ours, would be one in which we did not have a
millennium of Dark Ages between the fall of the Roman Empire and the
Renaissance. During this period in our timeline, scientific progress pretty
well stalled. But if it hadn't....
Of course by Anno Urbis Condita MMDCCLVIII climate change has turned Earth
into a second Venus, from which Man has fled to the stars, and fit only for
dumping all that nuclear waste, still hazardous even after a thousand
years.
--
A couple of questions. How do I stop the wires short-circuiting, and what's
this nylon washer for?
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
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| Re: Required reading - Empty America [message #62203 ] |
Do, 16 Juni 2005 02:46 |
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I will check these out soon. I recently got interested in alt history after
reading The Years Of Rice And Salt.
"Yuk Tang" <jimlaker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9673DE9252106yos132000yahoocouk [at] 195.92.193.157...
> From soc.history.what-if
>
> Empty America (and other alternate histories)
> http://www.althist.com/homepage.htm
>
> Provocative and educational (if one follows up by researching the OTL).
> More importantly, it's also ruddy hilarious.
>
>
> --
> Cheers, ymt.
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| Re: OT - Alternate science timelines (was Re: Required reading -Empty America) [message #64213 ] |
Sa, 18 Juni 2005 19:53 |
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Prai Jei wrote:
> The most reasonable alternative timeline, on which the world is even more
> scientifically advanced than ours, would be one in which we did not have a
> millennium of Dark Ages between the fall of the Roman Empire and the
> Renaissance. During this period in our timeline, scientific progress pretty
> well stalled. But if it hadn't....
If it hadn't, there's no telling whether science would have
developed the way it did. In our world, science began picking
up after several hundred years of cultural development. There
was time to ditch what was wrong with classical science (e.g.
Aristotle's beliefs on biology) where observed facts were mixed
in with Greek philosophy. The Greeks didn't practice the
scientific method as we do today. Making the transition to our
kind of science might have been difficult without a sharp
cultural break like the Dark Ages provided.
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
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| Re: OT - Alternate science timelines (was Re: Required reading - Empty America) [message #64215 ] |
Sa, 18 Juni 2005 20:28 |
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Flame of the West <jsolinas [at] comcast.net> wrote in
news:Jemdnd69PtnxwinfRVn-gw [at] comcast.com:
> Prai Jei wrote:
>
>> The most reasonable alternative timeline, on which the world is
>> even more scientifically advanced than ours, would be one in
>> which we did not have a millennium of Dark Ages between the fall
>> of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance. During this period in
>> our timeline, scientific progress pretty well stalled. But if it
>> hadn't....
>
> If it hadn't, there's no telling whether science would have
> developed the way it did. In our world, science began picking
> up after several hundred years of cultural development. There
> was time to ditch what was wrong with classical science (e.g.
> Aristotle's beliefs on biology) where observed facts were mixed
> in with Greek philosophy. The Greeks didn't practice the
> scientific method as we do today. Making the transition to our
> kind of science might have been difficult without a sharp
> cultural break like the Dark Ages provided.
Understanding of human biology was somewhat hampered by the classical
aversion to tampering with corpses. Even were the scientific
processes and technology in place, it would still require a religious
or cultural change to allow the appropriate experiments and
investigations to take place.
--
Cheers, ymt.
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| Re: OT - Alternate science timelines (was Re: Required reading - Empty America) [message #72801 ] |
Sa, 02 Juli 2005 22:13 |
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Yuk Tang <jimlaker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> Flame of the West <jsolinas [at] comcast.net> wrote in
> news:Jemdnd69PtnxwinfRVn-gw [at] comcast.com:
>> Prai Jei wrote:
>>
>>> The most reasonable alternative timeline, on which the world is
>>> even more scientifically advanced than ours, would be one in
>>> which we did not have a millennium of Dark Ages between the fall
>>> of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance. During this period in
>>> our timeline, scientific progress pretty well stalled. But if it
>>> hadn't....
>>
>> If it hadn't, there's no telling whether science would have
>> developed the way it did. In our world, science began picking
>> up after several hundred years of cultural development. There
>> was time to ditch what was wrong with classical science (e.g.
>> Aristotle's beliefs on biology) where observed facts were mixed
>> in with Greek philosophy. The Greeks didn't practice the
>> scientific method as we do today. Making the transition to our
>> kind of science might have been difficult without a sharp
>> cultural break like the Dark Ages provided.
Interesting idea.
The corollary being that our method might also in some way (obviously
not readily apparent) be preventing us from gaining certain insights.
> Understanding of human biology was somewhat hampered by the classical
> aversion to tampering with corpses. Even were the scientific
> processes and technology in place, it would still require a religious
> or cultural change to allow the appropriate experiments and
> investigations to take place.
Hmm. I could mention how certain taboos today could be seen as holding
back scientific 'progress' in human biology and medicine today, but that
might be a bit controversial.
Anyway, my background is more chemistry and physics, rather than biology
or zoology or medicine. I was thinking more of what order certain
discoveries had to take place in during our history for the physical
sciences to develop.
IIRC, chemistry developed from alchemy. Mathematics had always been
around, and I think I'd be correct to say that a strong mathematical
tradition is needed for basic physics to develop. The impetus probably
came from astrology and its development into astronomy. Earth-based
physics (as opposed to astrophysics) probably developed from chemistry,
or at least both involved people doing strange experiments in
laboratories.
Astronomy really got going when the telescope was invented. I seem to
remember that producing good quality lenses is rather difficult, and
can't remember quite what the driving force behind that was.
You also need to develop good clocks to time things during experiments.
Galileo timing things by church pendulums was inventive, but ultimately
if science was to progress, good timing devices were needed. IIRC, that
came from the need to have good clocks for navigational purposes (the
problem of measuring longitude).
Another fundamental thing would be leisure (having an educated class
with the time to carry out science - remember the gentleman botanists of
the Victorian era - including Darwin himself).
Oh, and resources as well. Agriculture allowed a settled existence.
Though hunter gatherers knew things that the settled peoples soon
forgot. Then came industrialisation and the ability to concentrate vast
resources on a single project. Like building an atom bomb, or a vast
particle accelerator, or sending Men to the Moon.
But it is with the really advanced physics that you seem to need a very
definite series of steps, and you don't have much wiggle room for
alternate scenarios. There is a very definite sense of building on what
came before. Going from the classical physics of Kelvin and Maxwell, to
the quantum physics of Planck, Bohr and others. Can you discover
Einstein's Special and General Relativity, and the QED of Feynmann and
others, and the quark structure of matter, without the work of the
previous century?
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
|
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| Re: OT - Alternate science timelines (was Re: Required reading -Empty America) [message #72818 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 00:49 |
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Hmm. I could mention how certain taboos today could be seen as holding
> back scientific 'progress' in human biology and medicine today, but that
> might be a bit controversial.
I think there's no doubt we could learn more stuff if we threw
away all ethical constraints ("taboos" if you will), but the
controversy is about how the tradeoffs should be made. We can't
even get people today to agree that animals should not be
experimented on to make perfume.
> Anyway, my background is more chemistry and physics, rather than biology
> or zoology or medicine. I was thinking more of what order certain
> discoveries had to take place in during our history for the physical
> sciences to develop.
I've heard it argued that modern science could only have
developed in the West because that's where you have a
philosophical tradition of the universe being created by
a rational Being. You'd only think to look for order in
the physical universe if you had some reason to suspect
it was there.
-- FotW
"If you must read newspapers and magazines at least
give yourself a mouthwash with The Lord of the Rings."
-- C.S. Lewis
>
> IIRC, chemistry developed from alchemy. Mathematics had always been
> around, and I think I'd be correct to say that a strong mathematical
> tradition is needed for basic physics to develop. The impetus probably
> came from astrology and its development into astronomy. Earth-based
> physics (as opposed to astrophysics) probably developed from chemistry,
> or at least both involved people doing strange experiments in
> laboratories.
>
> Astronomy really got going when the telescope was invented. I seem to
> remember that producing good quality lenses is rather difficult, and
> can't remember quite what the driving force behind that was.
>
> You also need to develop good clocks to time things during experiments.
> Galileo timing things by church pendulums was inventive, but ultimately
> if science was to progress, good timing devices were needed. IIRC, that
> came from the need to have good clocks for navigational purposes (the
> problem of measuring longitude).
>
> Another fundamental thing would be leisure (having an educated class
> with the time to carry out science - remember the gentleman botanists of
> the Victorian era - including Darwin himself).
>
> Oh, and resources as well. Agriculture allowed a settled existence.
> Though hunter gatherers knew things that the settled peoples soon
> forgot. Then came industrialisation and the ability to concentrate vast
> resources on a single project. Like building an atom bomb, or a vast
> particle accelerator, or sending Men to the Moon.
>
> But it is with the really advanced physics that you seem to need a very
> definite series of steps, and you don't have much wiggle room for
> alternate scenarios. There is a very definite sense of building on what
> came before. Going from the classical physics of Kelvin and Maxwell, to
> the quantum physics of Planck, Bohr and others. Can you discover
> Einstein's Special and General Relativity, and the QED of Feynmann and
> others, and the quark structure of matter, without the work of the
> previous century?
>
> Christopher
>
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| Re: OT - Alternate science timelines (was Re: Required reading - Empty America) [message #72833 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 02:30 |
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Flame of the West <jsolinas [at] comcast.net> wrote:
<snip>
> I've heard it argued that modern science could only have
> developed in the West because that's where you have a
> philosophical tradition of the universe being created by
> a rational Being. You'd only think to look for order in
> the physical universe if you had some reason to suspect
> it was there.
And then Darwin had to overthrow Paley's concept of Nature by design, as
espoused by clergymen natural scientists.
Order in the physical universe can be seen by the Sun rising every day,
the passing of the seasons, and the rhythms of the night sky. It could
be argued that these signs of order led to the development of religion.
After all, there must be a guiding force behind such order.
So it might have been the other way around... :-)
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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| Re: OT - Alternate science timelines (was Re: Required reading -Empty America) [message #72846 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 04:26 |
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>>Flame of the West <jsolinas [at] comcast.net> wrote in
<snip of some very interesting points>
>>>Aristotle's beliefs on biology) where observed facts were mixed
>>>in with Greek philosophy. The Greeks didn't practice the
>>>scientific method as we do today. Making the transition to our
>>>kind of science might have been difficult without a sharp
>>>cultural break like the Dark Ages provided.
> Another fundamental thing would be leisure (having an educated class
> with the time to carry out science - remember the gentleman botanists of
> the Victorian era - including Darwin himself).
I had a high school history teacher that argued that one of
the reasons the Greeks never built a technology based on
their understanding of science was because of plentiful
cheap slave labor. There was no need to build 'labour saving'
devices. IMO, this went along with a philosophy that
pure thinking was an exaulted pursuit, while actually
getting your hands dirty doing experiments was ignoble,
also contributing to their lack of progress in those fields.
--
Dennis is currently having a passionate, if entirely
imaginary love affair with Susan Sto Helit of Discworld.
If you're looking for the spamtrap, get to the 'POINT'.
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| Re: OT - Alternate science timelines (was Re: Required reading - Empty America) [message #72874 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 14:46 |
|
"Flame of the West" <jsolinas [at] comcast.net> wrote in message
news:5qydnWwTdZ5FhFrfRVn-qg [at] comcast.com...
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> > Hmm. I could mention how certain taboos today could be seen as
holding
> > back scientific 'progress' in human biology and medicine today,
but that
> > might be a bit controversial.
>
> I think there's no doubt we could learn more stuff if we threw
> away all ethical constraints ("taboos" if you will), but the
> controversy is about how the tradeoffs should be made. We can't
> even get people today to agree that animals should not be
> experimented on to make perfume.
Not just that - but certain ingrained "scientific" beliefs make
it hard to examine long held "folklore" ideas.
We're only just beginning to recover what was lost from herbal
medicine when "proper doctors" took over and pooh-poohed
the lot.
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
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| Re: OT - Alternate science timelines (was Re: Required reading -Empty America) [message #72890 ] |
So, 03 Juli 2005 20:00 |
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Jette Goldie wrote:
> Not just that - but certain ingrained "scientific" beliefs make
> it hard to examine long held "folklore" ideas.
>
> We're only just beginning to recover what was lost from herbal
> medicine when "proper doctors" took over and pooh-poohed
> the lot.
The medical profession is a secular priesthood, and
they don't appreciate others stepping on what they
regard as their turf.
In the US, they have harnessed the force of law to
enforce their monopoly via the Food and Drug
Administration. If you market herbal remedies with
the slightest hint that they may be effective, you
risk a raid by Federal marshals. Such things
happened in the 1980's under Bush 41. Carefully
worded disclaimers will not save you.
-- FotW
"If you must read newspapers and magazines at least
give yourself a mouthwash with The Lord of the Rings."
-- C.S. Lewis
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