Faramir and Sister Mary

Sprinkler Systems Uhaul move Lawn care Roses and trees Ford Parts Chrysler Parts Lake Powell New IPod Touch Apps New IPhone Apps IPhone Apps IPad Information IPad Apps Android APPS Android Games APPS Android Systems Android Tablets APPS and Beyond Smartphone Apps Smartphone Games Apps Repair and Tools Tablet PC Car Sharing Car Leasing Tabler Pc Fly Fishing Toyota Cars Vacation Rentals Stock market NYSE SSE Stock Freight & Shipping News Gluten Lactose Gout My Coupon Life Campgrounds Check Outdoor Kitchen Design and Redoo Bath Remodeling Palm Springs Las Vegas Vacation Tipps Lake Powell Boating Homes for lease Electric and green Car Blog Pearls and diamonds Whatsapp and forget SMS Blog, What is Whatsapp App Solar Panel Solar Energie Sun Power Blog

[Suche] [Administrator] [Hinweise zum Reader] [Startseite]

Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Faramir and Sister Mary

Faramir and Sister Mary [message #56795]

Di, 07 Juni 2005 19:40

Belba Grubb From Stoc

Has anyone read /Battle Cry/ by Leon Uris? Time is short but I'm
working my way through it; and while I haven't reached the end yet, it
occurs to me that some pretty interesting comparisons and contrasts
could be made between Faramir and the Marine Marion Hodgkiss. Would
love to bounce some of those thoughts off anyone who has read the book
and might be interested in discussing it.

Barb

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #56799 ]

Di, 07 Juni 2005 22:18

Charles Jones

In article <11abn16jc1s94f9 [at] corp.supernews.com>, barbb [at] dbtech.net
says...
> Has anyone read /Battle Cry/ by Leon Uris?

I read it through _three_ times between my sophomore year in high school
and graduation ... and then have not been back to it since. That makes
it *mumble, mumble* years ago ... :-)

> it occurs to me that some pretty interesting comparisons and contrasts
> could be made between Faramir and the Marine Marion Hodgkiss.

Really? I would be interested in your thoughts, though I'm going to
have to find my copy and brush up on the details.

--
Charles Jones (charlesj [at] frii.com)
Loveland, Colorado
AIM: LovelandCharles
ICQ: 29610755
MSN: charlesj68 [at] passport.com

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #57977 ]

Mi, 08 Juni 2005 19:02

Belba Grubb From Stoc

Charles Jones wrote:
> In article <11abn16jc1s94f9 [at] corp.supernews.com>, barbb [at] dbtech.net
> says...
>
>>Has anyone read /Battle Cry/ by Leon Uris?
>
>
> I read it through _three_ times between my sophomore year in high school
> and graduation ... and then have not been back to it since. That makes
> it *mumble, mumble* years ago ... :-)

:-)

Yes, it is that kind of book -- I haven't completed it yet, but when I
have done so and after a little break, it will be necessary to go over
it again and catch up on everything I missed. A little like /The Lord
of the Rings/ in that respect; that and the character-driven plot,
perhaps. In both books, the individual characters really grab you and
carry you along, even as their stories meld together quite tightly in
the story. Quite different approach in terms of point of view, though
-- JRRT would have had to put Gandalf in the first person, or perhaps
Frodo, to match it (of course, /Battle Cry/ was written after /The Lord
of the Rings/). Very tricky, but I think Uris pulls it off well.

>
>
>>it occurs to me that some pretty interesting comparisons and contrasts
>>could be made between Faramir and the Marine Marion Hodgkiss.
>
>
> Really? I would be interested in your thoughts, though I'm going to
> have to find my copy and brush up on the details.
>

Well, as mentioned, there is still a ways to go (am just past the point
where Ski made his stand and they're back in New Zealand after the Canal
-- Andy's about to get married) but what really brought it out for me
was when Sister Mary and Danny were in their room up in the mountains
and Danny got talking about how he was realizing there was a lot more to
music than "T. Dorsey" and so forth and and asked Hodgkiss to put on
Grieg because of the country around them, and they got a little
philosophical. There was that same sense of being in a "cave" (let's
not get into what Michener said about a man needing a cave in war in
/Tales of the South Pacific/ ;-) ) in wild, beautiful country at wartime
and one man realizing there is more to life and that he was a little
lacking (Frodo felt rustic whereas Danny wondered if he'd ever jitterbug
again) when confronted with someone of more depth who is connected to
the past. Sister Mary's classical music records are not so different
from the old songs the "wizard's pupil" Faramir would have followed
closely along with whatever written and spoken lore he could squeeze out
of Gandalf and his father and the libraries of Gondor. And it would not
be out of character for Faramir, if he were somehow transported into
Sister Mary's boots, to read Oriental philosophy in a tent on
Guadalcanal, no? Certainly Faramir had that intellectual ability to
distance himself from the immediate fray and look to the future.

That's just a couple of surface things. Also, the actions of their
women just before they meet their man are certainly not in society's
mainstream, either -- one at the top and one at the bottom, in this case
-- but deep inside they're okay and make the discovery of their true
nature after meeting their man. There are plenty of contrasts, too, of
course. I don't know anything about Uris, other than that he wrote
/Exodus/, but wonder if there's a parallel there to JRRT's talking fairy
tales with German POWs in the trenches? It all seems to spring from the
same source somehow.

Barb

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #67889 ]

So, 26 Juni 2005 01:02

Belba Grubb From Stoc

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #70334 ]

Di, 28 Juni 2005 21:45

Charles Jones

In article <11brokp7llkcra8 [at] corp.supernews.com>, barbb [at] dbtech.net
says...
> If you read it before /The Lord of the Rings/

LOTR came before by about two years.

> did it come to mind when you first read about Eomer's battle cry
> after seeing Theoden die and his sister, as he thought, dead on
> the battle field?

I'm thinking, I'm thinking ... !

Ah, are you drawing comparison with the reaction of Spanish Joe when
Marion is cut down?

--
Charles Jones (charlesj [at] frii.com)
Loveland, Colorado
AIM: LovelandCharles
ICQ: 29610755
MSN: charlesj68 [at] passport.com

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #90643 ]

So, 24 Juli 2005 22:27

Belba Grubb From Stoc

Charles Jones wrote:
> In article <11brokp7llkcra8 [at] corp.supernews.com>, barbb [at] dbtech.net
> says...
>
>>If you read it before /The Lord of the Rings/
>
>
> LOTR came before by about two years.
>
>
>>did it come to mind when you first read about Eomer's battle cry
>>after seeing Theoden die and his sister, as he thought, dead on
>>the battle field?
>
>
> I'm thinking, I'm thinking ... !
>
> Ah, are you drawing comparison with the reaction of Spanish Joe when
> Marion is cut down?
>

It must be hard if the book isn't handy. :-)

No, though that was a very powerful moment -- too powerful really to
comprehend: I actually didn't know what was going on with Spanish Joe
after that until after they brought word in about him later. Thought he
had just cracked up like Bryce did.

I'd quote the exact section but don't want to spoil it for anyone who
hasn't read /Battle Cry/ yet (they re-released the paperback about a
month ago). What I'm thinking of is the one (I think) the book's title
comes from. Shapiro gives voice to it first and then Huxley's Whores
pick it up after that and...

The enemy, who were mere mortals, fell back.

Terrible, but also awesome.

Eomer's "DEATH!" cry also causes his enemies to fall back and it seems
to me that even though the two works are very different -- the one,
fantasy; the other, extreme reality -- there is this singular battle
moment. Each story was written by a former soldier, after all...I
wonder if Uris was in the US Marine equivalent of the Signals. Most of
the central characters are, anyway.

It's interesting that in the "fantasy" work Eomer gets in trouble and is
only saved by Aragorn's landing on the quay at Harlond. In the
"realism" work,

HELLO, TULSA WHITE: THIS IS McQUADE, FOX COMPANY. WE HAVE
STOPPED THEM. WE HAVE STOPPED THEM.
HELLO, McQUADE: REINFORCEMENTS ARE LANDING ON THE BEACH RIGHT

NOW . . . .

It's just the opposite of what you would expect.

Barb

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #92950 ]

Di, 26 Juli 2005 16:14

Charles Jones

In article <11e7ueifjfnu7ce [at] corp.supernews.com>, barbb [at] dbtech.net
says...
> It must be hard if the book isn't handy. :-)

Yeah ... :-) I read when when I still lived at home, and the book still
resides in my parent's house!

> Shapiro gives voice to it first and then Huxley's Whores
> pick it up after that and...

Of course, how could I forget, "Blood!"

> it seems to me that even though the two works are very different -- the
> one, fantasy; the other, extreme reality -- there is this singular battle
> moment.

I do think that both accounts share a similar view into the intensity of
battle. In particular, that moment in which some triggering event
propels the soldier out of his discipline and into the state of the
ancient Norse "berserker".

> It's interesting that in the "fantasy" work Eomer gets in trouble and is
> only saved by Aragorn's landing on the quay at Harlond.

Having no military experience of my own, I can only draw on the stories
related by those of my family who did witness such action. My paternal
grandfather was a machinist mate in the U.S. Navy supporting that very
action at Saipan where Uris placed his characters. By his account there
were stories among the troops of small units having bezerker reactions
at various times. Despite the inherent strength that such an attack
might initially display, its short duration most often led to a grisly
end.

--
Charles Jones (charlesj [at] frii.com)
Loveland, Colorado
AIM: LovelandCharles
ICQ: 29610755
MSN: charlesj68 [at] passport.com

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #92951 ]

Di, 26 Juli 2005 16:47

Yuk Tang

Charles Jones <charlesj [at] frii.com> wrote in
news:11ech9ffi5bae77 [at] corp.supernews.com:
> In article <11e7ueifjfnu7ce [at] corp.supernews.com>, barbb [at] dbtech.net
> says...
>
>> it seems to me that even though the two works are very different
>> -- the one, fantasy; the other, extreme reality -- there is this
>> singular battle moment.
>
> I do think that both accounts share a similar view into the
> intensity of battle. In particular, that moment in which some
> triggering event propels the soldier out of his discipline and
> into the state of the ancient Norse "berserker".

There's a theory that the berserker is actually a victim of PTSD,
that he escapes the horror of reality by retreating into a preset
state of mind that blanks everything out. In the modern day this may
come after a prolonged period of combat stress.

>> It's interesting that in the "fantasy" work Eomer gets in trouble
>> and is only saved by Aragorn's landing on the quay at Harlond.
>
> Having no military experience of my own, I can only draw on the
> stories related by those of my family who did witness such action.
> My paternal grandfather was a machinist mate in the U.S. Navy
> supporting that very action at Saipan where Uris placed his
> characters. By his account there were stories among the troops of
> small units having bezerker reactions at various times. Despite
> the inherent strength that such an attack might initially display,
> its short duration most often led to a grisly end.

But enemy faced with such 'bravado' can sometimes be unnerved enough
to run away. When this happens, the main danger will come from the
berserker himself, to any friendly troops nearby. Of course, the
sensible reaction of normal troops to keep their distance may be
another contributary factor to the berserkers' short life expectancy,
as any enemy that keep their nerve are able to pick off the
unsupported warriors.

A famous RL berserker may be the unnamed viking who held Stamford
bridge for a period against the Anglo-Saxon army of Harold Godwinson.
Some historians suspect that Michel Ney could be similarly described,
although he doesn't seem to have needed any psychological help on top
of his normal temper.

Stamford Bridge
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/NORstamford.htm
(1) Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, C Version, entry for 1066.

There was one of the Norwegians there who withstood the English host
so they could not cross the bridge nor win victory. Then an
Englishman shot an arrow, but it was no use, and then another came
under the bridge and stabbed him under the corselet. Then Harold,
king of the English, came over the bridge and his host with him, and
there killed large numbers of both Norwegians and Flemings, and
Harold let the king's son Hetmundus go home to Norway with all the
ships.

Michel Ney
http://www.carpenoctem.tv/military/ney.html

--
Cheers, ymt.

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #95082 ]

Mi, 27 Juli 2005 13:33

Belba Grubb From Stoc

Charles Jones wrote:

<snip>

>>Shapiro gives voice to it first and then Huxley's Whores
>>pick it up after that and...
>
>
> Of course, how could I forget, "Blood!"

Given the whole story and our attachment to the characters and the
intensity of things at that point, it's not a pleasant experience and
one easily covered up in the lumber room of memory (g). Spanish Joe's
tragedy is that he experiences the same thing but alone, not in the
supportive unity of his remaining comrades.

>
>
>>it seems to me that even though the two works are very different -- the
>>one, fantasy; the other, extreme reality -- there is this singular battle
>>moment.
>
>
> I do think that both accounts share a similar view into the intensity of
> battle. In particular, that moment in which some triggering event
> propels the soldier out of his discipline and into the state of the
> ancient Norse "berserker".

Nah, they weren't berserkers. Well, maybe Spanish Joe was there at the
end. But overall they were US Marines in battle in WWII, fulfilling the
goal of their military training, not individuals any more but speaking
in one voice as "Huxley's Whores." A terrible voice it was, too.

Was Eomer technically a berserker as he cried "Death!" and led the
Rohirrim to battle from the place where Theoden and Eowyn fell? I think
not because he was not acting as an individual -- he was leading a fell
people (who incidentally were also fulfilling the goal of all their
training -- the horses of the Rohirrim were fine precisely because they
were not beasts of burden or race horses but rather war horses) and he
wasn't isolated from the rest of humanity by an insane rage but able to
communicate with and control thousands of men in a moment of intense crisis.

Perhaps if Eomer had fallen as he began the charge, as Shapiro did on
Red Beach, the Rohirrim too would have gone on and cleared the field,
making Aragorn's landing more of an anticlimax (obviously JRRT couldn't
let it happen this way).

Something I like about both books is that each brings you into the
furnace (and JRRT does so again literally at the end with that
tremendous struggle at the Sammath Naur) and then brings you back out
again on the other side. I'm as glad Danny came home as I am that Sam
did, and I sense a little of Frodo's unease there in the air when the
returning Marines see the Golden Gate again after Saipan.

>
>
>>It's interesting that in the "fantasy" work Eomer gets in trouble and is
>>only saved by Aragorn's landing on the quay at Harlond.
>
>
> Having no military experience of my own, I can only draw on the stories
> related by those of my family who did witness such action. My paternal
> grandfather was a machinist mate in the U.S. Navy supporting that very
> action at Saipan where Uris placed his characters. By his account there
> were stories among the troops of small units having bezerker reactions
> at various times. Despite the inherent strength that such an attack
> might initially display, its short duration most often led to a grisly
> end.

Yes, in a sense, Uris was writing his own fantasy of a "happy ending,"
wasn't he.

Barb

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #95087 ]

Mi, 27 Juli 2005 16:48

Belba Grubb From Stoc

PS: Was just thinking about it and we have Faramir's battle cry, too,
don't we? How does "Gondor! Gondor!" stack up against Shapiro's
"Blood!" and Eomer's "Death!"

There's something very British about it, I think.

Barb

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #95139 ]

Do, 28 Juli 2005 16:48

Charles Jones

In article <11ef7ndr1o53me2 [at] corp.supernews.com>, barbb [at] dbtech.net
says...
> PS: Was just thinking about it and we have Faramir's battle cry, too,
> don't we? How does "Gondor! Gondor!" stack up against Shapiro's
> "Blood!" and Eomer's "Death!"
>
> There's something very British about it, I think.

Hmmm, "Gondor!" certainly has a British feel about it to me as well.
But, "Blood!" and "Death!" seem cut from the same cloth; a powerful
verbal expression of an internal emotion.

The cry of "Gondor!" feels like a cry that the men would train to use,
to unite the ranks in effort. "Blood" and "Death" feel more like
spontaneous creations, an expression of the all-consuming specter
looming before the consciousness of the speaker, bursting forth in vocal
defiance of his enemies. There is a hint of despair in them, not a
despair leading to inaction but rather leading to an utter focus on
destruction.

Then (oh the contrast!) when the recognition is made of Aragorn coming
from the ships! Despair transformed into joy and the cry of "Death"
become singing!

--
Charles Jones (charlesj [at] frii.com)
Loveland, Colorado
AIM: LovelandCharles
ICQ: 29610755
MSN: charlesj68 [at] passport.com

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #95145 ]

Do, 28 Juli 2005 19:22

nopspam

Charles Jones <charlesj [at] frii.com> wrote in news:11ehs25g1a8ujd6
[at] corp.supernews.com:

> In article <11ef7ndr1o53me2 [at] corp.supernews.com>, barbb [at] dbtech.net
> says...

>> There's something very British about it, I think.
>
> Hmmm, "Gondor!" certainly has a British feel about it to me as well.

"Gondor calling to the faraway towns
now that war is declared and battle come down"
J.R.R. Strummer
--
Mästerkatten

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #95150 ]

Do, 28 Juli 2005 20:44

Christopher Kreuzer

Belba Grubb From Stock <barbb [at] dbtech.net> wrote:
> PS: Was just thinking about it and we have Faramir's battle cry, too,
> don't we? How does "Gondor! Gondor!" stack up against Shapiro's
> "Blood!" and Eomer's "Death!"

There is also Aragorn's "Elendil!" and Boromir's "Gondor!", both seen at
the Bridge of Khazad-dum, and more cries of "Elendil" from Aragorn
later.

And talking about Eomer and berserk fury, I said a little bit about that
here, in the CotW on 'The Battle of the Pelennor Fields':

"The singing [from the charge of the Rohirrim] is an interesting
contrast to the silence and cries of 'Death' we get in [this chapter].
There are at several types of 'fey' and battle moods we see here and in
the last chapter:

Theoden's initial fey onset;
Eowyn's fatalistic attitude and despair;
Merry's slow-kindled courage;
several moments of grief;
Eomer's icy cold fury;
Eomer's laughing attitude.

Are these all realistic depictions of battle moods, and are they
inspired by any Northern spirit in Tolkien's writings?"

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.fan.tolkien/msg/810e c4fc9cd1b212

[link to post by me on 20/01/2005]

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #95177 ]

Fr, 29 Juli 2005 03:37

the softrat

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:48:37 -0600, Charles Jones <charlesj [at] frii.com>
wrote:

>In article <11ef7ndr1o53me2 [at] corp.supernews.com>, barbb [at] dbtech.net
>says...
>> PS: Was just thinking about it and we have Faramir's battle cry, too,
>> don't we? How does "Gondor! Gondor!" stack up against Shapiro's
>> "Blood!" and Eomer's "Death!"
>>
>> There's something very British about it, I think.
>
>Hmmm, "Gondor!" certainly has a British feel about it to me as well.
>But, "Blood!" and "Death!" seem cut from the same cloth; a powerful
>verbal expression of an internal emotion.
>
They may 'feel' British to you. They 'feel' very Germanic to me. Or
Japanese.

the softrat
Sometimes I get so tired of the taste of my own toes.
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
In space, no one can hear your teddy bear scream!

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #95179 ]

Fr, 29 Juli 2005 03:44

Belba Grubb From Stoc

Charles Jones wrote:
> In article <11ef7ndr1o53me2 [at] corp.supernews.com>, barbb [at] dbtech.net
> says...
>
>>PS: Was just thinking about it and we have Faramir's battle cry, too,
>>don't we? How does "Gondor! Gondor!" stack up against Shapiro's
>>"Blood!" and Eomer's "Death!"
>>
>>There's something very British about it, I think.
>
>
> Hmmm, "Gondor!" certainly has a British feel about it to me as well.

Something about the call to one's own land and heritage and monarch and,
yes, empire, all greater than oneself...and good. It's different for
Americans, though there is a faint similarity there to such calls as
"Virginia!" (and probably other states as well) in the American Civil War.

> But, "Blood!" and "Death!" seem cut from the same cloth; a powerful
> verbal expression of an internal emotion.
>
> The cry of "Gondor!" feels like a cry that the men would train to use,
> to unite the ranks in effort. "Blood" and "Death" feel more like
> spontaneous creations, an expression of the all-consuming specter
> looming before the consciousness of the speaker, bursting forth in vocal
> defiance of his enemies. There is a hint of despair in them, not a
> despair leading to inaction but rather leading to an utter focus on
> destruction.
>
> Then (oh the contrast!) when the recognition is made of Aragorn coming
> from the ships! Despair transformed into joy and the cry of "Death"
> become singing!

You have put your finger on it exactly. Yes!

Tolkien brought us beyond Red Beach, didn't he -- a remarkable achievement.

And it goes down so easily, its power almost unnoticed among all the
other scenes at that point...until you start thinking about it.

Barb

--
Anybody can arrive at a plausible conclusion; it takes a genius to get
you nowhere.
-- Col. Stoopnagle

Re: Faramir and Sister Mary [message #97645 ]

Sa, 30 Juli 2005 01:56

Belba Grubb From Stoc

the softrat wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:48:37 -0600, Charles Jones <charlesj [at] frii.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>In article <11ef7ndr1o53me2 [at] corp.supernews.com>, barbb [at] dbtech.net
>>says...
>>
>>>PS: Was just thinking about it and we have Faramir's battle cry, too,
>>>don't we? How does "Gondor! Gondor!" stack up against Shapiro's
>>>"Blood!" and Eomer's "Death!"
>>>
>>>There's something very British about it, I think.
>>
>>Hmmm, "Gondor!" certainly has a British feel about it to me as well.
>>But, "Blood!" and "Death!" seem cut from the same cloth; a powerful
>>verbal expression of an internal emotion.
>>
>
> They may 'feel' British to you. They 'feel' very Germanic to me. Or
> Japanese.
>
Well, I don't know enough about the Japanese to say anything there, but
in terms of feeling and the Germanic and the discovery we have made of
joy here -- of desperation turned into singing; and given JRRT's own
interest in things Germanic and the amount of space he gave to joy in
"On Fairy-stories," particularly in the epilogue: dare one bring up the
original text of Schiller's "Ode To Joy"? One version of it is found at

http://mx.geocities.com/sergio_bolanos/origin.htm

Some of the things Schiller says here are not unfamiliar to those with a
deep love of the works of JRRT. They were also probably not unfamiliar
to Tolkien.

Perhaps Sister Mary even had a Beethoven record or two in his collection
and it's possible he read Schiller's words even at Guadalcanal, when he
could take a break from the fighting and the book on Oriental
philosophy, though generally speaking Uris allowed no joy to his
characters and so no consolation at all in his story, and gave Marion
Hodgkiss no battle cry at all on Red Beach.

Barb

Vorheriges Thema:	Harry Potter and the Paganization of Children's Culture
Nächstes Thema:	Welcome! FAQs and important information.

Gehe zu:

-=] Zurück zum Anfang [=-

aktuelle Zeit: Sa Mai 26 11:14:19 CEST 2012

Insgesamt benötigte Zeit, um die Seite zu erzeugen: 0,10169 Sekunden

.:: Startseite - Hinweise - Impressum ::.