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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: Tolkien and morality
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47252] Di, 24 Mai 2005 07:26
morgothscurse2002  
On 8 Aug 2004 20:29:14 GMT, Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

>Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002 [at] nospamyahoo.com> wrote in
>news:3svch01suqqd4ce0g2fhtuqj29utqfmpi0 [at] 4ax.com:
>>
>> This is the dilemma that is the basis of every government that has
>> ever existed. It is worthy of note that governments that have
>> valued the welfare of society more than the choice of the
>> individual (e.g. fascism, communism, feudalism) have mostly
>> perished while those that value the choice of the individual are
>> flourishing.
>
>Actually, these systems all favour the choice of the individual over
>that of society. It's just that they favour the choice of a few
>individuals at the top of the pyramid, whereas progressivism also
>values the choice of individuals at the bottom of the pyramid, giving
>them the opportunity to make these choices in the first place. That's
>what 'social justice' means.

Do you really believe that Hitler and his cronies would have been able
to slaughter eleven million people in the death camps if the average
German had not either acquiesced to or actively aided their efforts?
The armies that enabled the Nazis to murder Jews, Poles, Gypsies, et
cetera in Romania, Bulgaria, Belgium, Holland, Poland, Czechoslovakia,
et cetera were composed of ordinary men that can be found in any
nation. Some opposed the extermination of Jews, some supported it,
but most were, I suspect, indifferent. It was merely something to be
tolerated or ignored in exchange for the economic security that the
military and the Nazi leadership offered. Eventually the situation
deteriorated to the point where even those who would have spared the
Jews no longer had any choice in the matter. Fascism and communism
were able to survive only as long as this economic incentive existed.
When it disappeared, the regime in question collapsed. That is why
China is still officially communist. Most of the citizens believe
that their economic situation would either deteriorate or else be
imperiled entirely if the status quo changes--and not without reason
given the history of famine and epidemic in China.
>
>Have you heard of the phrase 'Libraries gave us power'? Do you know
>what it means?

Education is no guarantee of liberty, although it is certainly a
crucial component. China, Russia and India all have a high ratio of
literate citizens and yet are hardly examples of societies in which
the rights of the individual are respected.

Morgoth's Curse
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47265 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 11:55
TT Arvind  
Wes šu Morgoth's Curse hal!

> Education is no guarantee of liberty, although it is certainly a
> crucial component. China, Russia and India all have a high ratio of
> literate citizens and yet are hardly examples of societies in which
> the rights of the individual are respected.

India is a bad example. The most literate parts tend to have the most
respect for individual rights (for example, in Kerala - where literacy
is close to universal - rights violations are about as uncommon as in
western Europe), while the least literate parts have the worst record.

--
Arvind

Consultants are mystical people who ask a company for a number and then
give it back to them.
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47266 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 13:10
Yuk Tang  
[snipping rabt]

TT Arvind <ttarvind [at] hotmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1cfd0a49f4500758989f5d [at] news.individual.net:
> Wes šu Morgoth's Curse hal!
>
>> Education is no guarantee of liberty, although it is certainly a
>> crucial component. China, Russia and India all have a high ratio
>> of literate citizens and yet are hardly examples of societies in
>> which the rights of the individual are respected.
>
> India is a bad example. The most literate parts tend to have the
> most respect for individual rights (for example, in Kerala - where
> literacy is close to universal - rights violations are about as
> uncommon as in western Europe), while the least literate parts
> have the worst record.

And in any case, the liberal ideal of education isn't merely
literacy, but the ability to question one's rulers. Literacy allows
one to find out reality for oneself, rather than having to rely on
authority figures. Scepticism makes one want to find out reality for
oneself, despite the assertions of authority figures. I'm not sure
what the latest figures are in the US (possibly tending towards no-
one cares), but polls from last year indicated a majority believing
that WMDs and links to al-Qaeda had been found in Iraq. That's the
best known recent example of a lazy populace believing whatever their
government tells them instead of thinking independently about the
evidence.

However centralised the government, if the people are able and
willing to think for themselves instead of relying on the
authorities, there is always the last resort of revolution to assert
their will. But if they're willing to swallow whatever their rulers
give them, however literate they are, then everything their
government does will seem moderate and reasonable, however horrible
the acts.

To use your Nazi example, the SS were known for their devotion to
duty. Was this a good quality? Seemingly not, since the aftermath
of Nuremberg specifically stated that soldier ought not to, are
obliged not to follow illegal orders. Thus illustrating my point of
the liberal ideal of education, to ability and willingness to
question one's superiors. It doesn't guarantee liberty. But it
certainly makes it more likely.

Btw, have you visited the PNAC site to see the neocons' plans for
yourself? Here are some links to sites with no known bias, can be
assumed to be biased towards the neocons. See the evidence with your
own eyes, and come to your own judgement. Even if you disagree with
me on the conclusions to be drawn, at least take a look at the
evidence for yourself.

Welcome to the Project for the New American Century
http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Neocon 101, Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/neocon101.html
NB. explore the other links as well.

A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm
http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm

Draft of the 1992 "Defense Planning Guidance" [excerpts]
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/etc/wolf. html


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47307 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 04:24
the softrat  
On Tue, 24 May 2005 05:26:08 GMT, Morgoth's Curse
<morgothscurse2002 [at] nospamyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Do you really believe that Hitler and his cronies would have been able
>to slaughter eleven million people in the death camps if the average

<snipped -- for brevity>

>imperiled entirely if the status quo changes--and not without reason
>given the history of famine and epidemic in China.
>
You overlook the vast personal sacrifice to any individual to
overthrow *any* existing system. This is why all of the 'popular'
revolutionary masses consist of the mass of people with little or
nothing to lose. This mass is generally a very small minority of the
people. The rest of the people do *not* want to play. One of the
ironies of revolutionary movements are that they are led by middle or
upper class romantics or crypto-totalitarians who believe that they
can stop the turning wheel at the right place for them. Most of them
are wrong and end up just as dead as most of their followers. But the
vast majority of people will tolerate a government that they hate and
despise as they know that 'this, too, shall pass'. And pass it will,
one way or another.

Most of the revolutionary theorists ignore the fact that man has been
'civilized' for at least 5000 years, and that no revolutionary
movement goes back more than 200 years. So keep your head down until
the shooting is over and you probably will survive.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he
said. "Have you thought of going into teaching?"
- (Terry Pratchett, Mort)
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47311 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 10:12
Morgil  
the softrat wrote:

> You overlook the vast personal sacrifice to any individual to
> overthrow *any* existing system. This is why all of the 'popular'
> revolutionary masses consist of the mass of people with little or
> nothing to lose. This mass is generally a very small minority of the
> people. The rest of the people do *not* want to play. One of the
> ironies of revolutionary movements are that they are led by middle or
> upper class romantics or crypto-totalitarians who believe that they
> can stop the turning wheel at the right place for them. Most of them
> are wrong and end up just as dead as most of their followers. But the
> vast majority of people will tolerate a government that they hate and
> despise as they know that 'this, too, shall pass'. And pass it will,
> one way or another.

Does this apply to *American* Revolution as well? :-D

Morgil
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47317 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 14:39
Robert Kolker  
the softrat wrote:

> one way or another.
>
> Most of the revolutionary theorists ignore the fact that man has been
> 'civilized' for at least 5000 years, and that no revolutionary
> movement goes back more than 200 years.

Spartacus. 50 b.c.e.

Bob Kolker
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47320 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 15:26
Derek Broughton  
Morgil wrote:

> the softrat wrote:
>
>> But the
>> vast majority of people will tolerate a government that they hate and
>> despise as they know that 'this, too, shall pass'. And pass it will,
>> one way or another.
>
> Does this apply to *American* Revolution as well? :-D

Didn't it, already? Softrat said 200 years - and two hundred years after
its revolution, America was the new British Empire... Colonial power and
all.
--
derek
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47322 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 16:07
Mark Edelstein  
Robert J. Kolker wrote:
> the softrat wrote:
>
> > one way or another.
> >
> > Most of the revolutionary theorists ignore the fact that man has been
> > 'civilized' for at least 5000 years, and that no revolutionary
> > movement goes back more than 200 years.
>
> Spartacus. 50 b.c.e.
>

How was Spartacus a Revolutionary? There was no set goal to
fundementally transform Roman society, but rather a massive revolt for
freedom of some kind. It was more of a prison break.
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47323 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 16:24
Robert Kolker  
Mark Edelstein wrote:

>
> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>
>>the softrat wrote:
>>
>>
>>>one way or another.
>>>
>>>Most of the revolutionary theorists ignore the fact that man has been
>>>'civilized' for at least 5000 years, and that no revolutionary
>>>movement goes back more than 200 years.
>>
>>Spartacus. 50 b.c.e.
>>
>
>
> How was Spartacus a Revolutionary?

Huh? He rebelled against his status as a slave. Isn't that revolutionary
enough for you? Furthermore if he had gotten away with it, slavery would
be on its way out in the Roman domains.


> There was no set goal to
> fundementally transform Roman society, but rather a massive revolt for
> freedom of some kind. It was more of a prison break.

It does not matter. He did change Roman society even if his goal was to
Get Out Of Town.

Bob Kolker

>
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47332 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 19:58
Graham Lockwood  
On Wed, 25 May 2005 09:24:22 -0500, Robert J. Kolker wrote
(in article <3fjg51F87gjrU1 [at] individual.net>):

> Mark Edelstein wrote:
>
>>
>> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>>
>>> the softrat wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> one way or another.
>>>>
>>>> Most of the revolutionary theorists ignore the fact that man has been
>>>> 'civilized' for at least 5000 years, and that no revolutionary
>>>> movement goes back more than 200 years.
>>>
>>> Spartacus. 50 b.c.e.
>>>
>>
>>
>> How was Spartacus a Revolutionary?
>
> Huh? He rebelled against his status as a slave. Isn't that revolutionary
> enough for you? Furthermore if he had gotten away with it, slavery would
> be on its way out in the Roman domains.
{snip}

I don't think there was ever any real chance of him succeeding. If he had
managed to defeat the army that defeated him, then they would have just sent
another army. The only possible way he could have "succeeded" would have been
if he managed to escape Roman territory altogether (and by a good distance
too) and then not get killed by the "barbarians". However, escaping the Roman
grasp at that time would have been difficult for anyone at that time, even if
they DIDN'T have armies chasing after them. ;)



---
Graham
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47334 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 20:16
Yuk Tang  
Graham Lockwood <g-ng [at] yeehawgropes.com> wrote in
news:0001HW.BEBA26E200033DA9F0284600 [at] news.x-privat.org:
> On Wed, 25 May 2005 09:24:22 -0500, Robert J. Kolker wrote
> (in article <3fjg51F87gjrU1 [at] individual.net>):
>> Mark Edelstein wrote:
>>> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>>>> the softrat wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of the revolutionary theorists ignore the fact that man
>>>>> has been 'civilized' for at least 5000 years, and that no
>>>>> revolutionary movement goes back more than 200 years.
>>>>
>>>> Spartacus. 50 b.c.e.
>>>
>>> How was Spartacus a Revolutionary?
>>
>> Huh? He rebelled against his status as a slave. Isn't that
>> revolutionary enough for you? Furthermore if he had gotten away
>> with it, slavery would be on its way out in the Roman domains.
>
> I don't think there was ever any real chance of him succeeding. If
> he had managed to defeat the army that defeated him, then they
> would have just sent another army. The only possible way he could
> have "succeeded" would have been if he managed to escape Roman
> territory altogether (and by a good distance too) and then not get
> killed by the "barbarians". However, escaping the Roman grasp at
> that time would have been difficult for anyone at that time, even
> if they DIDN'T have armies chasing after them. ;)

If he'd followed his original plan and escaped into Gaul, it would
have served as a pretext for Caesar to later ravage their lands until
he was handed over. Considering the politics of the time, it
probably wouldn't have waited until Caesar's rise, but Pompey would
have lobbied for the command before then (unless Crassus managed to
block him). As it was, he wandered back south, embarrassing a few
more Roman armies on the way before being cornered by Crassus at the
Silarus.

However, I'm not aware of any revolutionary manifesto by Spartacus,
beyond leading his men (and camp followers) to freedom. There had
been other slave revolts before his time, and there were others
after.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47350 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 05:17
the softrat  
On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:12:18 +0300, Morgil <morestelx [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>the softrat wrote:
>
>> You overlook the vast personal sacrifice to any individual to
>> overthrow *any* existing system. This is why all of the 'popular'
>> revolutionary masses consist of the mass of people with little or
>> nothing to lose. This mass is generally a very small minority of the
>> people. The rest of the people do *not* want to play. One of the
>> ironies of revolutionary movements are that they are led by middle or
>> upper class romantics or crypto-totalitarians who believe that they
>> can stop the turning wheel at the right place for them. Most of them
>> are wrong and end up just as dead as most of their followers. But the
>> vast majority of people will tolerate a government that they hate and
>> despise as they know that 'this, too, shall pass'. And pass it will,
>> one way or another.
>
>Does this apply to *American* Revolution as well? :-D
>
>Morgil

God, YES!!!!


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"Let's jump off that bridge when we come to it." -- Allan
Lamport (deceased), former mayor of Toronto.
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47352 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 09:53
Christopher Kreuzer  
> Morgil <morestelx [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>> the softrat wrote:
>>
>> Does this apply to *American* Revolution as well? :-D
>
> God, YES!!!!

Softrat's theory (which I like) copied below so that he can annotate it
with how it applies to the American Revolution...

the softrat <softrat [at] pobox.com> wrote:
>>> You overlook the vast personal sacrifice to any individual to
>>> overthrow *any* existing system. This is why all of the 'popular'
>>> revolutionary masses consist of the mass of people with little or
>>> nothing to lose. This mass is generally a very small minority of the
>>> people. The rest of the people do *not* want to play.

Surely a 'popular' revolution, while not universally popular (what is?)
is _more_ popular and is driven by a rump of 'the masses', than those
wars or campaigns of conquest imposed from above by the current
authorities and fought by a standing or conscripted army.

>>> One of the
>>> ironies of revolutionary movements are that they are led by middle
>>> or upper class romantics or crypto-totalitarians

Which of these apply to the leaders of the American Revolution?

>>> who believe that
>>> they can stop the turning wheel at the right place for them. Most
>>> of them are wrong and end up just as dead as most of their
>>> followers. But the vast majority of people will tolerate a
>>> government that they hate and despise as they know that 'this, too,
>>> shall pass'. And pass it will, one way or another.

So you think your American government will also one day pass "one way or
another"? And did that happen to the ideals of the American Revolution?

Overall, your post struck me as one of the most sensible things I've
read in a long while. Both the turning wheel phrase (very Buddhist - do
you mean the inertia of history overwhelms individuals and
governments?), and the way that governments can be tolerated by the
people. Also the way that some things pass that can seem never-ending.
More interesting though is what things do not pass - or at least outlast
governments and individuals - what are those threads of continuity found
in human history and heritage over the past few thousand years?

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47355 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 11:56
Yuk Tang  
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:Effle.40033$G8.20788 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
>
> Overall, your post struck me as one of the most sensible things
> I've read in a long while. Both the turning wheel phrase (very
> Buddhist - do you mean the inertia of history overwhelms
> individuals and governments?), and the way that governments can be
> tolerated by the people. Also the way that some things pass that
> can seem never-ending. More interesting though is what things do
> not pass - or at least outlast governments and individuals - what
> are those threads of continuity found in human history and
> heritage over the past few thousand years?

Mixed government
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_government

Polybius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybius

Summary: Power is seized by a warlord, who rules as a monarch. His
descendants grow used to their monopoly on power, and start ruling
despotically, and are overthrown by the nobility. The nobility rule
as a council, but eventually they grow used to power and become an
oligarchy. The masses, exploited and ignored by the oligarchy, take
up power for themselves and rule as a democracy. Eventually the
system grows too unwieldy and turns into anarchy. A warlord leads a
faction to restore order, and subsequently rules as a monarch...

"The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an
occasional assassination."
- attributed to Voltaire


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #47363 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 15:05
Derek Broughton  
Yuk Tang wrote:
>
> "The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an
> occasional assassination."
> - attributed to Voltaire
>
Damn! I'd heard that attributed to Heinlein. The scoundrel...
--
derek
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #49640 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 21:46
Graham Lockwood  
On Thu, 26 May 2005 02:53:08 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
>>> the softrat wrote:
{snip}
>>>> One of the
>>>> ironies of revolutionary movements are that they are led by middle
>>>> or upper class romantics or crypto-totalitarians
>
> Which of these apply to the leaders of the American Revolution?
{snip}

I would say they were mostly "middle or upper class romantics".



---
Graham
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #49648 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 23:56
the softrat  
On Thu, 26 May 2005 14:46:18 -0500, Graham Lockwood
<g-ng [at] yeehawgropes.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 26 May 2005 02:53:08 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
>>>> the softrat wrote:
>{snip}
>>>>> One of the
>>>>> ironies of revolutionary movements are that they are led by middle
>>>>> or upper class romantics or crypto-totalitarians
>>
>> Which of these apply to the leaders of the American Revolution?
>{snip}
>
>I would say they were mostly "middle or upper class romantics".
>
Thank you.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Visualize using your turn signal.
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #49654 ] Fr, 27 Mai 2005 02:49
Derek Broughton  
Graham Lockwood wrote:

> On Thu, 26 May 2005 02:53:08 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
>>>> the softrat wrote:
> {snip}
>>>>> One of the
>>>>> ironies of revolutionary movements are that they are led by middle
>>>>> or upper class romantics or crypto-totalitarians
>>
>> Which of these apply to the leaders of the American Revolution?
> {snip}
>
> I would say they were mostly "middle or upper class romantics".
>
Darn! I was going to guess crypto-totalitarian.
--
derek
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #49659 ] Fr, 27 Mai 2005 04:00
Graham Lockwood  
On Thu, 26 May 2005 19:49:58 -0500, Derek Broughton wrote
(in article <me7im2-6j9.ln1 [at] othello.pointerstop.ca>):

> Graham Lockwood wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 26 May 2005 02:53:08 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
>>>>> the softrat wrote:
>> {snip}
>>>>>> One of the
>>>>>> ironies of revolutionary movements are that they are led by middle
>>>>>> or upper class romantics or crypto-totalitarians
>>>
>>> Which of these apply to the leaders of the American Revolution?
>> {snip}
>>
>> I would say they were mostly "middle or upper class romantics".
>>
> Darn! I was going to guess crypto-totalitarian.

Nah, that's the Neocons.



---
Graham




I wonder if this will start a flame war...
Re: Tolkien and morality [message #49677 ] Fr, 27 Mai 2005 14:31
Derek Broughton  
Graham Lockwood wrote:

> On Thu, 26 May 2005 19:49:58 -0500, Derek Broughton wrote
> (in article <me7im2-6j9.ln1 [at] othello.pointerstop.ca>):
>
>> Graham Lockwood wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 26 May 2005 02:53:08 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer wrote
>>>>>> the softrat wrote:
>>> {snip}
>>>>>>> One of the
>>>>>>> ironies of revolutionary movements are that they are led by middle
>>>>>>> or upper class romantics or crypto-totalitarians
>>>>
>>>> Which of these apply to the leaders of the American Revolution?
>>> {snip}
>>>
>>> I would say they were mostly "middle or upper class romantics".
>>>
>> Darn! I was going to guess crypto-totalitarian.
>
> Nah, that's the Neocons.

Alexander Hamilton? Whiskey Rebellion?
>
> I wonder if this will start a flame war...

One can only hope :-)
--
derek
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