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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth
Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47250] Di, 24 Mai 2005 05:38
Gregory Hernandez  
As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in history
and myth. Such as:

Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
Eldar = Elders
Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the similarity is
still there IMHO)

I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there other
names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?

Greg
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47261 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 07:53
AC  
On Tue, 24 May 2005 03:38:49 GMT,
Gregory Hernandez <gregrosa [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
> As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
> discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
> assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in history
> and myth. Such as:
>
> Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs

This one I can buy to some extent.

> Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh

Pure coincidence. The two characters have nothing in common other than
being kings.

> Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans

A very happy linguistic accident.

> Eldar = Elders

Another I can buy.

> Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the similarity is
> still there IMHO)

Not as far as I can see.

>
> I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there other
> names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?

Some of the above are accidents, one of them (Atalante) being a very
fortuitous one.

--
mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47262 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 08:12
Christopher Kreuzer  
Gregory Hernandez <gregrosa [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
> As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
> discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
> assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in
> history and myth. Such as:

My personal associations when reading these names are as follows.

> Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs

Yes, I do make this association, and also Tolkien once compared
Numenoreans and the Egyptian culture. But in fact, Tolkien probably had
quite a specific meaning in mind, and probably not Pharaonic. I don't
know what Ar-Pharazon means, but the Elvish form of his name
(Tar-Calion) might be a clue.

> Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh

Never thought that.

> Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans

That is indeed what we are meant to think.

> Eldar = Elders

Not really. Tolkien calls the Quendi/Eldar the Elder race, which can be
confusing, but Eldar is quite clearly "People of the Stars", where 'El-'
is star. It is also the name given to those who set out on the Great
Journey west from Cuivienen. See index entry for 'Eldar' in /The
Silmarillion/.

> Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the
> similarity is still there IMHO)

Huh? Another one where I draw a blank. Can you expand on the association
you make between 'numinous' and Numenorean?

> I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there
> other names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?

No. But while I imagine that Tolkien's ear as a philologist was
sensitive to such things, it was also more sensitive than most to the
mistakes that can be made when trying to make links like this. He might
have recognised the fortuitous assonances you point out, or been annoyed
by them, but I suspect he was more concerned with the structures and
relationship between his languages, than trying to get things to sound
like real words. The case of Atalante is an example of a word where he
recognised the assonance, but claimed it was accidental (or something
similar - details are in a letter, can't remember the exact quote).

Here's a similar opinion:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/m sg/09f35d9d4ca91640

[b5acgq$80h$1 [at] panix5.panix.com http://tinyurl.com/bumru]

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47264 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 08:28
g.schoenegger  
Gregory Hernandez schrieb:
>
> As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
> discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
> assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in history
> and myth. Such as:
>
> Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
> Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
> Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
> Eldar = Elders
> Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the similarity is
> still there IMHO)
>
> I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there other
> names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?
>
> Greg

some were, some were not

a good example would be "Sauron" which had no connection to lizards, the
"S" being evolved from first age "TH". atalante on the other side is
clearly related to atlantis. somewhere tolkien makes a comment about
gandalf's name "Incanus" possibly being latin?! (don't remember the
source - maybe in the article about the istari or in some related
footnote?)

georg
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47272 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 19:55
Morthond  
Well, "anciano" in Spanish is elder, and they sound very much alike,
taking that our "c" (phonetic "th" in Spaniard Spanish used to be
phonetic "k" as in Incanus, in latin, therefore "Incanus" and "anciano"
would sound veeeeery similar), but that is a mere coincidence I guess.

We can probably derive thousands this way and err all the same....


;-)

Cheers

Morthond
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47273 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 19:57
Morthond  
>Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs

Well, Tolkien was a devout Catholic you know. So you are probably right
on this one.

Cheers

Morthond
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47276 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 20:46
Jens Kilian  
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
> I don't
> know what Ar-Pharazon means, but the Elvish form of his name
> (Tar-Calion) might be a clue.

"The Golden (King)", IIRC.

--
mailto:jjk [at] acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
http://del.icio.us/jjk
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47279 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 21:16
srowe  
AC wrote:

>> Eldar = Elders
>
> Another I can buy.

No, JRRT says in 'Guide to Names'

The similarity between Elda-r plural, the western Elves, and Elder is
accidental. The name Elda ?Elf? had been devised long before The Lord of
the Rings was written.
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47285 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 22:58
Me  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Gregory Hernandez <gregrosa [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
> As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
> discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
> assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in history
> and myth. Such as:

> Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
> Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
> Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
> Eldar = Elders
> Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the similarity is
> still there IMHO)

> I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there other
> names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?

> Greg

Reading the Bible lately, I noticed that "Rimmon" is the
name of a place (I think even the name of a hill) in it. There
were a few other names that caught my eye. Of course "Nimrod"
is a person in the Bible.

--Jamie. (a Dover edition designed for years of use!)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
[at] csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47291 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 23:23
Christopher Kreuzer  
Jens Kilian <jjk [at] acm.org> wrote:
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>> I don't know what Ar-Pharazon means, but the Elvish form
>> of his name (Tar-Calion) might be a clue.
>
> "The Golden (King)", IIRC.

So the name "Ar-Pharazon the Golden" was a doublet like Bree-hill?
Surely Tar-Calion is similar in origin to "ancalime"? With the 'cal-'
bit meaning 'bright' or 'light' or something, as in Calaquendi (Elves of
the Light).

So Tar-Calion would mean "Bright King" or something? And wouldn't "the
Golden" just be added to that to form something like "The Bright Golden
One" or some suitably megalomanic title for this despot.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47292 ] Di, 24 Mai 2005 23:25
Mark Edelstein  
I'm pretty sure "Rimon" (well Rimmon is perhaps a better
tranliteration, though I'm no expert in such matters) is pomegranate in
Hebrew. They were a fairly common religious symbol.
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47301 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 03:49
the softrat  
On Tue, 24 May 2005 03:38:49 GMT, "Gregory Hernandez"
<gregrosa [at] earthlink.net> wrote:

>As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
>discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
>assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in history
>and myth. Such as:
>
>Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
>Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
>Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
>Eldar = Elders
>Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the similarity is
>still there IMHO)
>
>I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there other
>names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?
>
>Greg
>
Greg, the only one of these name assonances which Tolkien copped to
was 'Atalante = Atlantis". Otherwise, the Etymologies and other extant
writings rather suggest otherwise. Tolkien knew very well that his
myth of the Whelming of Numenor was a reflection of the Atlantis Myth.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Not the brightest crayon in the box, now, are we?
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47302 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 03:51
the softrat  
On 24 May 2005 05:53:48 GMT, AC <mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Some of the above are accidents, one of them (Atalante) being a very
>fortuitous one.

Not so, Oh Alternating One! (First, you memorise HoME ....)


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"If your attack is going too well, you're probably walking into
an ambush." - Infantry Journal
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47303 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 03:57
the softrat  
On 24 May 2005 10:55:53 -0700, "Morthond" <morfalas [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

>Well, "anciano" in Spanish is elder, and they sound very much alike,
>taking that our "c" (phonetic "th" in Spaniard Spanish used to be
>phonetic "k" as in Incanus, in latin, therefore "Incanus" and "anciano"
>would sound veeeeery similar), but that is a mere coincidence I guess.
>
>We can probably derive thousands this way and err all the same....
>
>
I believe that Tolkien knew well what 'incanus' meant in Latin and
used it because he was charmed by the fact that it could be give an
Elvish etymology also. So also his use of the word 'orthanc' as both
Elvish and Rohirric (i.e. Anglo-saxon). I'm sure that these kinds of
plays of word appealed to him immensely. (I am rather fond of them
myself.)

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Keep this up and we'll have a vicious triangle.
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47304 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 03:59
the softrat  
On 24 May 2005 20:58:28 GMT, me [at] privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real
address [at] bottom of message) wrote:
>
> Reading the Bible lately, I noticed that "Rimmon" is the
>name of a place (I think even the name of a hill) in it. There
>were a few other names that caught my eye. Of course "Nimrod"
>is a person in the Bible.
>
However, we are groping for the bottom of the barrel here.....


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Keep this up and we'll have a vicious triangle.
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47324 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 16:46
seivadjmas  
AC <mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 24 May 2005 03:38:49 GMT,
> Gregory Hernandez <gregrosa [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
> > As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
> > discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
> > assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in history
> > and myth. Such as:
> >
> > Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
>
> This one I can buy to some extent.
>
> > Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
>
> Pure coincidence. The two characters have nothing in common other than
> being kings.
>
> > Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
>
> A very happy linguistic accident.

I think not. A paradise island that was completely flooded after they
angered the gods? Sounds familiar to me...
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47328 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 19:39
Jens Kilian  
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
> So the name "Ar-Pharazon the Golden" was a doublet like Bree-hill?

I didn't actually check this; I think that I may have remembered wrong here,
and "the Golden" was only a byname, not a translation.

--
mailto:jjk [at] acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
http://del.icio.us/jjk
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47338 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 22:11
jwkenne  
the softrat wrote:
> Greg, the only one of these name assonances which Tolkien copped to
> was 'Atalante = Atlantis". Otherwise, the Etymologies and other extant
> writings rather suggest otherwise. Tolkien knew very well that his
> myth of the Whelming of Numenor was a reflection of the Atlantis Myth.

What about the rather obvious "Vala" = (German) "Wala"?

--
John W. Kennedy
"The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have
always objected to being governed at all."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Man Who Was Thursday"
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47341 ] Mi, 25 Mai 2005 22:53
Gregory Hernandez  
"the softrat" wrote:
>
> --
> Not the brightest crayon in the box, now, are we?

correct. you are not.
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47346 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 05:01
Steve Morrison  
Jens Kilian wrote:
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
> > So the name "Ar-Pharazon the Golden" was a doublet like Bree-hill?
>
> I didn't actually check this; I think that I may have remembered wrong here,
> and "the Golden" was only a byname, not a translation.
>
> --
> mailto:jjk [at] acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
> http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
> http://del.icio.us/jjk

I just checked the Index to the Silmarillion, and the name Ar-Pharazon
is glossed as 'The Golden' -- in inverted commas, which means it's a
direct translation.
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47347 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 05:08
the softrat  
On Wed, 25 May 2005 20:53:06 GMT, "Gregory Hernandez"
<gregrosa [at] earthlink.net> wrote:

>"the softrat" wrote:
>>
>> --
>> Not the brightest crayon in the box, now, are we?
>
>correct. you are not.
>
Awwwwww......you noticed!


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"I notice that you still think that vulgar is 'strong'. It's
not; it's weak. It demonstrates a lack of vocabulary, courtesy,
culture, education, and limber mental processes." -- the
softrat, 6/25/99
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47351 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 09:33
Christopher Kreuzer  
Steve Morrison <Geirroeth [at] aol.com> wrote:
> Jens Kilian wrote:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>
>>> So the name "Ar-Pharazon the Golden" was a doublet like Bree-hill?
>>
>> I didn't actually check this; I think that I may have remembered
>> wrong here, and "the Golden" was only a byname, not a translation.
>>
> I just checked the Index to the Silmarillion, and the name Ar-Pharazon
> is glossed as 'The Golden' -- in inverted commas, which means it's a
> direct translation.

Hmm. It looks like that, but the introduction to the index says that
these translations are for Elvish names. It doesn't say that _only_
Elvish names are translated, but Pharazon is Adunaic, so I'm not certain
what is going on here.

1) We need some references to what ever scraps of Adunaic Tolkien
translated for us. Does anyone have a definitive source for what
Pharazon or other bits of Adunaic mean? For example, Arnor is glossed as
'Land of the King', in the same way that the 'ar-' stem is glossed in
the Appendix to /The Silmarillion/ as "the prefix of the Adunaic names
of the Kings of Numenor was derived from this", but is 'Ar' borrowed
into Adunaic from an Elvish language?

2) Are the Quenya names of the Kings of Numenor the same as the Aduniac
ones? ie. Are they direct translations? We know that Ar-Inziladun
changed his name to Tar-Palantir, and that Ar-Pharazon's Quenya name was
Tar-Calion, and that Ar-Adunakhor's Quenya name was Tar-Herunumen, and
that Tar-Miriel's name was changed to Ar-Zimraphel, but which of these
are changes and which are direct translations (if any)?

3) There is a much greater (indeed complete) list of the Quenya names of
the Kings and Queens of Numenor in /Unfinished Tales/, plus some of
their bynames (see the index and the 'Line of Elros' section).

The oft-used phrase "Quenya name of..." seems to imply that the names
are not translations (as the phrase would then be "Quenya form of...")
but I'd really like some confirmation either way. And the phrase
"Ar-Pharazon the Golden" seems mostly used as if "The Golden" is a
byname (as Tar-Atanamir was variously called 'The Great' and 'The
Unwilling', and the Kings of Rohan had various bynames such as Eorl the
Young, Aldor the Old, Eomer Eadig, Theoden Ednew, Frealaf Hildeson, Helm
Hammerhand), but that index entry does seem to imply Pharazon means 'the
Golden'.

Other examples are: Arvedui, called 'Last-King - which does seem to be a
translation according to Malbeth the Seer; Tarostar Romendacil I (the
first of the East-victors); Tarannon Falastur (Lord of the Coasts);
Atanatar II Alcarin (The Glorious); Ciryaher Hyarmendacil
(South-victor); Teluehtar Umbardacil (Umbar-victor); Minalcar Romendacil
II (the second East-victor); Mardil Voronwe (the Steadfast); and of
course Elessar Telcontar (Strider).

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47354 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 11:15
Yuk Tang  
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:WYele.40017$G8.21825 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
>
> 1) We need some references to what ever scraps of Adunaic Tolkien
> translated for us. Does anyone have a definitive source for what
> Pharazon or other bits of Adunaic mean? For example, Arnor is
> glossed as 'Land of the King', in the same way that the 'ar-' stem
> is glossed in the Appendix to /The Silmarillion/ as "the prefix of
> the Adunaic names of the Kings of Numenor was derived from this",
> but is 'Ar' borrowed into Adunaic from an Elvish language?
>
> 2) Are the Quenya names of the Kings of Numenor the same as the
> Aduniac ones? ie. Are they direct translations? We know that
> Ar-Inziladun changed his name to Tar-Palantir, and that
> Ar-Pharazon's Quenya name was Tar-Calion, and that Ar-Adunakhor's
> Quenya name was Tar-Herunumen, and that Tar-Miriel's name was
> changed to Ar-Zimraphel, but which of these are changes and which
> are direct translations (if any)?

I'd always assumed that Adunaic was a mixture of the language the
Atani spoke before they crossed the Ered Luin plus a strong strain of
Sindarin. The Sindarin influences can be seen in ar- and adun-, but
the non-Sindarin part can be seen in the frequency of the letter z
(which would have been represented in Sind by dh, eg. Hadhodrond, and
in Quen by s, eg. Isil).


> 3) There is a much greater (indeed complete) list of the Quenya
> names of the Kings and Queens of Numenor in /Unfinished Tales/,
> plus some of their bynames (see the index and the 'Line of Elros'
> section).
>
> The oft-used phrase "Quenya name of..." seems to imply that the
> names are not translations (as the phrase would then be "Quenya
> form of...") but I'd really like some confirmation either way. And
> the phrase "Ar-Pharazon the Golden" seems mostly used as if "The
> Golden" is a byname (as Tar-Atanamir was variously called 'The
> Great' and 'The Unwilling', and the Kings of Rohan had various
> bynames such as Eorl the Young, Aldor the Old, Eomer Eadig,
> Theoden Ednew, Frealaf Hildeson, Helm Hammerhand), but that index
> entry does seem to imply Pharazon means 'the Golden'.

If we assume that Adunaic is Numenorean, then Ar-Adunakhor seems to
map directly to Tar-Herunumen. Also compare with the various titles
of William I of Normandy and England.


> Other examples are: Arvedui, called 'Last-King - which does seem
> to be a translation according to Malbeth the Seer; Tarostar
> Romendacil I (the first of the East-victors); Tarannon Falastur
> (Lord of the Coasts); Atanatar II Alcarin (The Glorious); Ciryaher
> Hyarmendacil (South-victor); Teluehtar Umbardacil (Umbar-victor);
> Minalcar Romendacil II (the second East-victor); Mardil Voronwe
> (the Steadfast); and of course Elessar Telcontar (Strider).

Emperor Taizong of Tang China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shimin

Family name: Li
Given name: Shimin
Temple (regal) name: Taizong
Posthumous name: Emperor Wen Wu Dasheng Daguang Xiao


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47360 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 14:33
Halion  
Gregory Hernandez wrote:
> N=C3=BAmen=C3=B3reans (Numinous ancestors=E2=80=94I know, not a name, but=
the similarity is
> still there IMHO)

Tolkien wrote in a footnote to the letter (to Milton Waldman and not
dated, but probably written late in 1951) published as no. 131 in THE
LETTERS OF J.R.R. TOLKIEN:

=E2=80=9CN=C3=BAmen=C3=B3re means in =E2=80=98Elvish=E2=80=99 simply Wester=
nesse or Land in the
West, and is not related to numen numinous, or =CE=BD=CE=BF=CF=8D=CE=BC=CE=
=B5=CE=BD=CE=BF=CE=BD!=E2=80=9D

And in no. 276 (12 September 1965, to Dick Plotz, =E2=80=98Thain=E2=80=99 o=
f the
Tolkien Society of America):

=E2=80=9CC. S. Lewis was one of the only three persons who have so far read
all or a considerable part of my =E2=80=98mythology=E2=80=99 of the First a=
nd
Second Ages, which had already been in the main lines constructed
before we met. He had the peculiarity that he liked to be read to. All
that he knew of my =E2=80=98matter=E2=80=99 was what his capacious but not
infallible memory retained from my reading to him as sole audience. His
spelling numinor is a hearing error, aided, no doubt, by his
association of the name with Latin n=C5=ABmen, n=C5=ABmina, and the adjecti=
ve
=E2=80=98numinous=E2=80=99. Unfortunate, since the name has no such connexi=
ons, and
has no reference to =E2=80=98divinity=E2=80=99 or sense of its presence. It=
is a
construction from the Eldarin base =E2=88=9ANDU =E2=80=98below, down; desce=
nd=E2=80=99;
Q=2E n=C3=BAme =E2=80=98going down, occident=E2=80=99; n=C3=BAmen =E2=80=98=
the direction or region
of the sunset=E2=80=99 + n=C3=B3re =E2=80=98land=E2=80=99 as an inhabited a=
rea.=E2=80=9D
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47367 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 15:21
Gregory Hernandez  
I see the soft-headed rat has been busy responding to these posts, and
probably not adding a thing to the conversation, either. Kids. Yawn.
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #47368 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 15:23
Gregory Hernandez  
Oops, I read a soft-head's post. I promise not to do THAT again.
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49646 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 23:50
the softrat  
On Thu, 26 May 2005 13:23:13 GMT, "Gregory Hernandez"
<gregrosa [at] earthlink.net> wrote:

>Oops, I read a soft-head's post. I promise not to do THAT again.
>
BOOWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me
with questions?
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49679 ] Fr, 27 Mai 2005 17:06
ojevind.lang  
Gregory Hernandez wrote:

>As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in
history
and myth. Such as:

>Ar-Pharazon =3D Pharaohs
Gil-Galad =3D Gilgamesh
Atalante =3D Atlantis/Atlanteans
Eldar =3D Elders
Numenoreans (Numinous ancestors - I know, not a name, but the
similarity is
still there IMHO)

>I imagine that as a linguist, these were not accidents. Are there other
names or phrases that have caught your eye (ear)?

Some of the others may be coincidental, but Atalante definitely is not,
particularly since it is known that Tolkien had a recurring dream that
he called his "Atlantis dream" - a dream in which the high sea comes in
and drowns an entire land.
Another obvious loan from a real language is the Elven name for Tom
Bombadil: Iarwain Ben-Adar, which we are told means "Oldest, Son of
Nobody". Since "ben" is used for "son of" in Semitic languages, it
would be a strecth to say that Tolkien was not influenced by that.
Also, with regard to the Hobbitish name Ranugad ("Stay-at-home"), it
is a fact that in Old Norse (and modern Icelandic), there is a word
"rann" which means "house". It is also found in the modern English
"ransack" and the modern Swedish "rannsaka" ("investigate [in a
trial]") and "husrannsakan" ("house search", where we find a bit of the
tautology so common when a word alsoes its original meaning).

=D6jevind
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49681 ] Fr, 27 Mai 2005 17:16
ojevind.lang  
Aaron Clausen wrote:

>Some of the above are accidents, one of them (Atalante) being a very
fortuitous one.

I'm afraid you are mistaken; we have Tolkien's own word for it that he
had Atlantis in mind.
Incidentally, when replying to Gregory Hernandez, I forgot a coiple
of other very clear connections between a real word and one advanced by
Tolkien. One is Arda for "the Earth". I think it fairly certain that
this was inspired by the German "Erde" (OG "Erda"), cognate with the
English "Earth" and meaning the same thing.
Another clear connection between a real word and a Tolkien one is
"crebain" (singular form "craban"), the name for those sinister crows
that were spying out Dunland when the Fellowship passed through it. In
Old Germanic, the word for "crow" was "hraban", which later evolved
into the German "Rabe", the Scanidnaivan "ravn" and the English
"raven". Linguistically, it has been known for words in a language to
alter an initial "h" to a "k", and that's what Tolkien did.

=D6jevind
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49683 ] Fr, 27 Mai 2005 18:02
Larry Swain  
Sam Davies wrote:
> AC <mightymartianca [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On Tue, 24 May 2005 03:38:49 GMT,
>>Gregory Hernandez <gregrosa [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>As we have been discussing the Appendices to the LotR in the CotW
>>>discussions, I was wondering if it had been commented on just how much
>>>assonance there is between names in Tolkien's history and names in history
>>>and myth. Such as:
>>>
>>>Ar-Pharazon = Pharaohs
>>
>>This one I can buy to some extent.
>>
>>
>>>Gil-Galad = Gilgamesh
>>
>>Pure coincidence. The two characters have nothing in common other than
>>being kings.
>>
>>
>>>Atalante = Atlantis/Atlanteans
>>
>>A very happy linguistic accident.
>
>
> I think not. A paradise island that was completely flooded after they
> angered the gods? Sounds familiar to me...

I think he was referring to the form of the name, not to the story
itself. I recall Tolkien saying this somewhere too, that the happy
accident of the form of Quenya atalante (the downfallen) being so close
to Atlantis and atlantic, but at the moment I can not find it.
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49686 ] Fr, 27 Mai 2005 20:14
RPN  
=D6jevind L=E5ng wrote:

> Another obvious loan from a real language is the Elven name for Tom
> Bombadil: Iarwain Ben-Adar, which we are told means "Oldest, Son of
> Nobody". Since "ben" is used for "son of" in Semitic languages, it
> would be a strecth to say that Tolkien was not influenced by that.


Unless I'm mistaken, "Iarwain Ben-Adar" is Sindarin for "Oldest
Without-a-Father." There's no "son of" in it.


RPN
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49687 ] Fr, 27 Mai 2005 20:42
Morthond  
=D6jevind L=E5ng wrote:

> Also, with regard to the Hobbitish name Ranugad ("Stay-at-home"), it
> is a fact that in Old Norse (and modern Icelandic), there is a word
> "rann" which means "house". It is also found in the modern English
> "ransack" and the modern Swedish "rannsaka" ("investigate [in a
> trial]") and "husrannsakan" ("house search", where we find a bit of the
> tautology so common when a word alsoes its original meaning).
>
> =D6jevind

Ranugad?

never read that, where did you get it from?

:-?

Morthond
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49688 ] Do, 26 Mai 2005 19:21
John Jones  
"John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne [at] attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:pT4le.48552$HJ2.34213 [at] fe11.lga...
> the softrat wrote:
> > Greg, the only one of these name assonances which Tolkien copped to
> > was 'Atalante = Atlantis". Otherwise, the Etymologies and other extant
> > writings rather suggest otherwise. Tolkien knew very well that his
> > myth of the Whelming of Numenor was a reflection of the Atlantis Myth.
>
> What about the rather obvious "Vala" = (German) "Wala"?
>
Or 'Tuna'?
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49690 ] Fr, 27 Mai 2005 21:46
TT Arvind  
Wes ðu Morthond hal!
>
> Ranugad?
>
> never read that, where did you get it from?

It is the "actual" name of the Old Gaffer, which Tolkien translated to
'Hamfast'. See Part II of Appendix F ("On Translation").

--
Arvind

Where there's life there's hope; and need of vittles.
- Hamfast Gamgee
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49691 ] Fr, 27 Mai 2005 21:56
TT Arvind  
Wes ðu Larry Swain hal!
>
> I think he was referring to the form of the name, not to the story
> itself. I recall Tolkien saying this somewhere too, that the happy
> accident of the form of Quenya atalante (the downfallen) being so close
> to Atlantis and atlantic, but at the moment I can not find it.

You may be thinking of Letter 257:

"It is a curious chance that the stem 'talat' used in Q for 'slipping,
sliding, falling down' of which /atalantie/ is a normal (in Q) noun-
formation, should so much resemble Atlantis."

So the fact that Quenya could a word sounding so similar to Atlantis
*and* with a very apt meaning was a coincidence, which Tolkien then
deliberately took advantage of.

--
Arvind

Slick's Third Law of the Universe: There are two types of dirt --- The
dark kind, which is attracted to light objects, and the light kind,
which is attracted to dark objects.
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49693 ] Fr, 27 Mai 2005 23:12
Prai Jei  
Öjevind Lång (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<1117206364.702328.89960 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:

> Another obvious loan from a real language is the Elven name for Tom
> Bombadil: Iarwain Ben-Adar, which we are told means "Oldest, Son of
> Nobody". Since "ben" is used for "son of" in Semitic languages, it
> would be a strecth to say that Tolkien was not influenced by that.

Iar = Old by double translation from Welsh?
Welsh "iar" = English "hen"
Welsh "hen" = English "old"
--
A couple of questions. How do I stop the wires short-circuiting, and what's
this nylon washer for?

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49697 ] Sa, 28 Mai 2005 00:21
the softrat  
On Thu, 26 May 2005 18:21:04 +0100, "John Jones"
<john [at] jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>"John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne [at] attglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:pT4le.48552$HJ2.34213 [at] fe11.lga...
>> the softrat wrote:
>> > Greg, the only one of these name assonances which Tolkien copped to
>> > was 'Atalante = Atlantis". Otherwise, the Etymologies and other extant
>> > writings rather suggest otherwise. Tolkien knew very well that his
>> > myth of the Whelming of Numenor was a reflection of the Atlantis Myth.
>>
>> What about the rather obvious "Vala" = (German) "Wala"?
>>
>Or 'Tuna'?
>
>
'Charlie'?

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"Aim towards the enemy." - Instruction printed on U.S. Army
rocket launcher
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49698 ] Sa, 28 Mai 2005 00:21
the softrat  
On Fri, 27 May 2005 20:56:24 +0100, TT Arvind <ttarvind [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Wes ðu Larry Swain hal!
>>
>> I think he was referring to the form of the name, not to the story
>> itself. I recall Tolkien saying this somewhere too, that the happy
>> accident of the form of Quenya atalante (the downfallen) being so close
>> to Atlantis and atlantic, but at the moment I can not find it.
>
>You may be thinking of Letter 257:
>
>"It is a curious chance that the stem 'talat' used in Q for 'slipping,
>sliding, falling down' of which /atalantie/ is a normal (in Q) noun-
>formation, should so much resemble Atlantis."
>
>So the fact that Quenya could a word sounding so similar to Atlantis
>*and* with a very apt meaning was a coincidence, which Tolkien then
>deliberately took advantage of.

*I* think that he took advantage of it so much because he deliberately
created the roots to arrive at the desired conclusion. A 'curious
chance', my foot! As another Oxonian said, "Curiouser and
curiouser...."


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"Aim towards the enemy." - Instruction printed on U.S. Army
rocket launcher
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49701 ] Sa, 28 Mai 2005 00:37
Christopher Kreuzer  
the softrat <softrat [at] pobox.com> wrote:
> "John Jones" <john [at] jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

[Tolkien's words like real words]

<snip>

>> Or 'Tuna'?
>>
> 'Charlie'?

Or Turin, which my spellchecker insists is an Italian city...
Re: Names in Tolkien's Middle Earth [message #49704 ] Sa, 28 Mai 2005 01:49
sigvald  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> the softrat <softrat [at] pobox.com> wrote:
> > "John Jones" <john [at] jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [Tolkien's words like real words]
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Or 'Tuna'?
> >>
> > 'Charlie'?
>
> Or Turin, which my spellchecker insists is an Italian city...

Torino is the name of the city, perhaps you should rewind your
spellchecker....
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