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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: Gollum's Escape
| Re: Gollum's Escape [message #38180] |
Di, 17 Mai 2005 01:03 |
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:keYhe.32679$G8.13975 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Raven <jonlennart.beck.god [at] damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
> > Then again, there would be little for Gollum east of Mirkwood, beyond
> > the marshes. He would not have liked the flat lands where he could
> > not easily hide from the Yellow Eye, or from cruel Men. If he could
> > have done as he pleased, he would likely have sought the Shire, until
> > he learnt that the Ring had left that land.
> Agreed. But he ended up in Moria instead...
He probably went to Moria primarily to escape pursuit. He must have
spent some time exploring it, without being discovered by the Moria orcs,
before finding his way to the Hollin-gate, which he could not open. This is
stated rather directly, in UT, I think: he either failed to discover that he
had only to push the doors open from inside, or he attempted it but was not
strong enough. If he had been so able, he might have sneaked off in search
of the Shire, though he would possibly not have been able to make a beeline
for it. He learnt of its approximate location from his eavesdropping in
Dale and Lake-town, but it is improbable that the Men there knew more than
that it was some distance west of the Misty Mountains, which they must have
known about. The Dwarves, who knew the precise location, were probably more
close-tongued - although it is of course not impossible that he managed to
overhear them discussing the road to the Blue Mountains, which passed
through the Shire. In that case he might have gone north from Hollin until
he reached the Road that ran from the ford of the Bruinen and passed through
the Shire. Otherwise he might have spent years searching for it - except,
of course, that he would have been interrupted by the Ring being destroyed
or recovered by Sauron.
Of course, if he had been able to open the doors, he might have met the
Fellowship half way between Rivendell and Hollin, which would have left him
marooned outside the Hollin-gate as the Watcher closed and blocked it.
Holló.
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| Re: Gollum's Escape [message #38973 ] |
Mi, 18 Mai 2005 18:25 |
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Raven wrote:
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:keYhe.32679$G8.13975 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
>
>>Raven <jonlennart.beck.god [at] damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>
>
>>>Then again, there would be little for Gollum east of Mirkwood, beyond
>>>the marshes. He would not have liked the flat lands where he could
>>>not easily hide from the Yellow Eye, or from cruel Men. If he could
>>>have done as he pleased, he would likely have sought the Shire, until
>>>he learnt that the Ring had left that land.
>
>
>>Agreed. But he ended up in Moria instead...
>
>
> He probably went to Moria primarily to escape pursuit.
Perhaps. The elves were able to follow the orcs and gollum to near Dol
Guldur, so either they let Gollum go (Sauron figuring the lure of the
ring would draw Gollum to it, and so draw Sauron to it) and Gollum
ditched those spieing on him.
As for entering Moria, I would think that would be difficult unless he
climbed the external side of the mountain and found some broken window
or hole to crawl into.
He must have
> spent some time exploring it, without being discovered by the Moria orcs,
> before finding his way to the Hollin-gate, which he could not open. This is
> stated rather directly, in UT, I think:
Appendix B: Tale of Years for August 3018 has Gollum giving the slip to
both elves and Sauron's servants by entering Moria--but doesn't say how,
and he found the West gate but could not open it.
he either failed to discover that he
> had only to push the doors open from inside, or he attempted it but was not
> strong enough. If he had been so able, he might have sneaked off in search
> of the Shire, though he would possibly not have been able to make a beeline
> for it. He learnt of its approximate location from his eavesdropping in
> Dale and Lake-town, but it is improbable that the Men there knew more than
> that it was some distance west of the Misty Mountains, which they must have
> known about.
I'd agree there---he knew the general direction to go, but not the
precise location. Thus, the nine spend a good deal of time searching
for it before crossing the Isen, and even then they have to capture some
servants of Saruman before they know its precise location.
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| Re: Gollum's Escape [message #47257 ] |
Di, 24 Mai 2005 07:26 |
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On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:25:16 -0500, Larry Swain
<theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:
>Perhaps. The elves were able to follow the orcs and gollum to near Dol
>Guldur, so either they let Gollum go (Sauron figuring the lure of the
>ring would draw Gollum to it, and so draw Sauron to it) and Gollum
>ditched those spieing on him.
>
>As for entering Moria, I would think that would be difficult unless he
>climbed the external side of the mountain and found some broken window
>or hole to crawl into.
Don't forget that Gollum had preyed on Orcs in the Misty Mountains for
hundreds of years. He was quite thoroughly familiar with their habits
and lack of effectiveness as guards. I don't believe that it would be
too difficult for him to slip by any guards at the gates (even
assuming that there were any guards.)
>Appendix B: Tale of Years for August 3018 has Gollum giving the slip to
>both elves and Sauron's servants by entering Moria--but doesn't say how,
>and he found the West gate but could not open it.
It is a remarkable tribute to Gollum's endurance and resourcefulness
that he entered Moria sometime in August 3018 and did not encounter
the Company until January 3019. He had survived approximately six
months in the depths of Moria even though there was little or no food
and water and he had to cope with same dangers that bedeviled the
Company: the danger of being discovered by Orcs as well as foul air
and sudden crevasses opening beneath his feet. He also had to explore
the Mines in utter darkness. Who knows how many times he made a wrong
turn and found himself in a dead end or how often he discovered that
he had inadvertently returned to the same passage that he had explored
weeks earlier? It is an astonishing tribute to the hardiness of
hobbits and to the power of the Ring to completely enslave its bearer.
I have often wondered how difficult it would have been for Gollum to
cross the Misty Mountains. He sought refuge in Moria because he was
hunted and needed to shake his pursuers, of course, but he might also
have attempted to escape through the mountains. We know that he was
an extraordinary climber, but could he have managed the dreadful
heights of the greatest mountains in Middle-earth and endured the
bitter cold of the passes? He would have little protection from the
Sun and Moon and would have to find his way over the mountains instead
of seeking for an simpler route such as the High Pass.
>
>he either failed to discover that he
>> had only to push the doors open from inside, or he attempted it but was not
>> strong enough. If he had been so able, he might have sneaked off in search
>> of the Shire, though he would possibly not have been able to make a beeline
>> for it. He learnt of its approximate location from his eavesdropping in
>> Dale and Lake-town, but it is improbable that the Men there knew more than
>> that it was some distance west of the Misty Mountains, which they must have
>> known about.
>
>I'd agree there---he knew the general direction to go, but not the
>precise location. Thus, the nine spend a good deal of time searching
>for it before crossing the Isen, and even then they have to capture some
>servants of Saruman before they know its precise location.
>
Or he might have taken a swim in the pool and ended up as the
Watcher's dinner. ;-)
Morgoth's Curse
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| Re: Gollum's Escape [message #49680 ] |
Fr, 27 Mai 2005 17:08 |
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Morgoth's Curse wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:25:16 -0500, Larry Swain
> <theswain [at] operamail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Perhaps. The elves were able to follow the orcs and gollum to near Dol
>>Guldur, so either they let Gollum go (Sauron figuring the lure of the
>>ring would draw Gollum to it, and so draw Sauron to it) and Gollum
>>ditched those spieing on him.
>>
>>As for entering Moria, I would think that would be difficult unless he
>>climbed the external side of the mountain and found some broken window
>>or hole to crawl into.
>
>
> Don't forget that Gollum had preyed on Orcs in the Misty Mountains for
> hundreds of years. He was quite thoroughly familiar with their habits
> and lack of effectiveness as guards. I don't believe that it would be
> too difficult for him to slip by any guards at the gates (even
> assuming that there were any guards.)
Good points. But consider a) Gollum had often had the advantage of the
Ring when he wanted to up to the upper halls and get some goblin meat
and b) he had the advantage of coming out of a dark place into a dark
place not out of the light into a guarded door.
As for their effectiveness as guards, they seemed to do well enough at
the front gate with Azog and co., and Gollum couldn't very well know
whether there were guards or no, so slipping in may have been
problematic. NOt impossible, but problematic.
>
>>Appendix B: Tale of Years for August 3018 has Gollum giving the slip to
>>both elves and Sauron's servants by entering Moria--but doesn't say how,
>>and he found the West gate but could not open it.
>
>
> It is a remarkable tribute to Gollum's endurance and resourcefulness
> that he entered Moria sometime in August 3018 and did not encounter
> the Company until January 3019. He had survived approximately six
> months in the depths of Moria even though there was little or no food
> and water and he had to cope with same dangers that bedeviled the
> Company: the danger of being discovered by Orcs as well as foul air
> and sudden crevasses opening beneath his feet. He also had to explore
> the Mines in utter darkness. Who knows how many times he made a wrong
> turn and found himself in a dead end or how often he discovered that
> he had inadvertently returned to the same passage that he had explored
> weeks earlier? It is an astonishing tribute to the hardiness of
> hobbits and to the power of the Ring to completely enslave its bearer.
Mostly agree, though again remember that Gollum had spent centuries in
the deeps of the Misty Mountains and was quite accustomed to walking in
the dark.
>
> I have often wondered how difficult it would have been for Gollum to
> cross the Misty Mountains. He sought refuge in Moria because he was
> hunted and needed to shake his pursuers, of course, but he might also
> have attempted to escape through the mountains. We know that he was
> an extraordinary climber, but could he have managed the dreadful
> heights of the greatest mountains in Middle-earth and endured the
> bitter cold of the passes?
With the sun and moon spying on him??
He would have little protection from the
> Sun and Moon and would have to find his way over the mountains instead
> of seeking for an simpler route such as the High Pass.
>
>>he either failed to discover that he
>>
>>>had only to push the doors open from inside, or he attempted it but was not
>>>strong enough. If he had been so able, he might have sneaked off in search
>>>of the Shire, though he would possibly not have been able to make a beeline
>>>for it. He learnt of its approximate location from his eavesdropping in
>>>Dale and Lake-town, but it is improbable that the Men there knew more than
>>>that it was some distance west of the Misty Mountains, which they must have
>>>known about.
>>
>>I'd agree there---he knew the general direction to go, but not the
>>precise location. Thus, the nine spend a good deal of time searching
>>for it before crossing the Isen, and even then they have to capture some
>>servants of Saruman before they know its precise location.
>>
>
> Or he might have taken a swim in the pool and ended up as the
> Watcher's dinner. ;-)
>
> Morgoth's Curse
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