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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » When did Sauron come closest...
When did Sauron come closest... [message #36661] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 03:17
Sean  
....to recovering the Ring?

I'm not sure from the Tale of Years exactly when Sauron learned
from Gollum that it had been found:

2941 - Bilbo finds the ring
2944 - Gollum leaves the mountains, searching for the "thief"
2951 - Gollum turns towards Mordor (7 years searching and he still
couldn't find his way to the Shire?)
2980 - Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor (this took 29 years?)
3017 - Gollum is released from Mordor (after 37 years interrogation)

It can be assumed that Sauron learned about "Thief Baggins" and
the Shire some time after 2980. I would have expected him to bend
all his power in that direction ASAP, and yet it isn't until 3018
that the Black Riders finally show up in the Shire.

What took the Dark Lord so long? It should't take 38 years to get
from Mordor to Hobbiton.

Anyway, the Enemy's servants nearly recover the Ring several times.
When did they come closest?

Sean

ps. If I were camping out, and even ONE Nazgul showed up in the dead
of night, I'd be so terrified that he'd have no trouble making off
with any magic rings that I might have.
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36662 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 03:24
Graham Lockwood  
On Sun, 15 May 2005 20:17:08 -0500, Sean wrote
(in article <4287F7C1.67A9F25B [at] no.spam>):
{snip}
> Anyway, the Enemy's servants nearly recover the Ring several times.
> When did they come closest?
{snip}

When Frodo was in Osgiliath and tried to offer it up to the flying Nazgul.



---
Graham
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36663 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 03:47
Morgil  
Sean wrote:
> ...to recovering the Ring?
>
> I'm not sure from the Tale of Years exactly when Sauron learned
> from Gollum that it had been found:

You need to read Gandalf's account as well.

> 2941 - Bilbo finds the ring
> 2944 - Gollum leaves the mountains, searching for the "thief"
> 2951 - Gollum turns towards Mordor (7 years searching and he still
> couldn't find his way to the Shire?)

It took 7 years to find out where Bilbo was from. Gollum went
through Mirkwood to Esgaroth and snooped around Dale and then
turned back to west, before turning South to Mordor.

> 2980 - Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor (this took 29 years?)

The way I see it, he went back and forth, turned away now and
then but then turned back again, maybe sometimes found a nice
place and stayed there for few years until felt forced to move
again.

> 3017 - Gollum is released from Mordor (after 37 years interrogation)

Nope. 3009 - goes to Mordor and is captured. 8 years.

> It can be assumed that Sauron learned about "Thief Baggins" and
> the Shire some time after 2980.

Some time after 3010.

I would have expected him to bend
> all his power in that direction ASAP, and yet it isn't until 3018
> that the Black Riders finally show up in the Shire.

Gollum cheated Sauron and gave him wrong directions to Shire.

Morgil
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36664 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 04:00
OMeallyMD  
Sean wrote:

<snip>

> 2980 - Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor (this took 29 years?)
> 3017 - Gollum is released from Mordor (after 37 years interrogation)

You skipped "3009... at some time during these years Gollum himself
ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron." Whether he wandered
around the confines of Mordor, or was journeying elsewhere is not made
clear. Whatever he was doing, he didn't actually enter it until 3009.

This would suggest a *maximum* of nine years of interrogation. Also note
the phrase, "at some time during these years" (the next entry being
3017), which suggests that the exact year of Gollum's capture is
unknown. He may have been captured as late as 3016 and only suffered one
year (as if that were not enough) at the hands of Sauron before
escaping.

>
> It can be assumed that Sauron learned about "Thief Baggins" and
> the Shire some time after 2980. I would have expected him to bend
> all his power in that direction ASAP, and yet it isn't until 3018
> that the Black Riders finally show up in the Shire.

If the latter date for Gollum's capture is assumed, this does not seem
too far fetched.


> Anyway, the Enemy's servants nearly recover the Ring several times.
> When did they come closest?

Easy. On Amon Sul.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36665 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 04:08
OMeallyMD  
Bill O'Meally wrote:

> This would suggest a *maximum* of nine years of interrogation.

Hmmm, let's see... 17 minus 9... <counts on fingers, takes another sip
of beer> Ah, yes! Make that EIGHT years.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36668 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 05:15
Sean  
Bill O'Meally wrote:

> > 2980 - Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor (this took 29 years?)
> > 3017 - Gollum is released from Mordor (after 37 years interrogation)
>
> You skipped "3009... at some time during these years Gollum himself
> ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron." Whether he wandered
> around the confines of Mordor, or was journeying elsewhere is not made
> clear. Whatever he was doing, he didn't actually enter it until 3009.

Oops, thanks Bill and Morgil, I seemed to have overlooked that
entry. To update the chronology:

2980 - Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor and meets Shelob
3009 - Gollum ventures into Mordor and is captured (after hanging
out with a cranky giant spider for 29 years)
3017 - Gollum is released from Mordor (after 8 years interrogation)
3018, August 23 - Nazgul arrive in Hobbiton

Eight years is *very* long for an interrogation; it's 2 years longer
than World War II. However, since it can be reasonably inferred
that Sauron would have moved as soon as he had the information,
therefore Smeagol must have held out for nearly all the 8 years.
Unbelievable, considering that Pippin was forced to spill the beans
within seconds when he only contacted the Enemy through a Palantir.

Or perhaps Smeagol was merely held for most of that time before
the DL got around to questioning him.

Sean
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36669 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 05:18
Mark Edelstein  
> Unbelievable, considering that Pippin was forced to spill the beans
> within seconds when he only contacted the Enemy through a Palantir.
>

To be fair, Pippin didn't actually spill the beans, since Sauron was
busy gloating. As Gandalf said, "wise fool."
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36670 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 05:59
OMeallyMD  
Sean wrote:

> Eight years is *very* long for an interrogation; it's 2 years longer
> than World War II. However, since it can be reasonably inferred
> that Sauron would have moved as soon as he had the information,
> therefore Smeagol must have held out for nearly all the 8 years.

Again, we don't know that it was eight years. It may have been as little
as one year.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36671 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 06:22
Sean  
Mark Edelstein wrote:

> > Unbelievable, considering that Pippin was forced to spill the beans
> > within seconds when he only contacted the Enemy through a Palantir.
> >
>
> To be fair, Pippin didn't actually spill the beans, since Sauron was
> busy gloating. As Gandalf said, "wise fool."

True enough, but the point is that Pippin *would* have spilled all
the beans he had if pressed:

"If he [Sauron] had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly
you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all."

Meanwhile, Gollum's mind had been stressed to the breaking point
by so many years of obsession with the Ring. Sauron wouldn't have
needed torture so much as guile; tricking Gollum into thinking that
he had "good friends now, and very strong." Also, if "The Ring
of the Enemy would leave its mark, too; leave him open to the summons,"
it could also be expected to leave him open to questioning.

Sean
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36675 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 09:05
danhenry  
On Mon, 16 May 2005 03:15:06 GMT, Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote:

>Eight years is *very* long for an interrogation; it's 2 years longer
>than World War II. However, since it can be reasonably inferred
>that Sauron would have moved as soon as he had the information,
>therefore Smeagol must have held out for nearly all the 8 years.
>Unbelievable, considering that Pippin was forced to spill the beans
>within seconds when he only contacted the Enemy through a Palantir.

Pippin didn't have Ring-lust to stiffen his spine.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry [at] inreach.com
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36679 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 09:59
Christopher Kreuzer  
Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote:
> ...to recovering the Ring?

He never had a chance. It was all fated.
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36682 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 12:13
the softrat  
On Sun, 15 May 2005 20:24:52 -0500, Graham Lockwood
<g-ng [at] yeehawgropes.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 15 May 2005 20:17:08 -0500, Sean wrote
>(in article <4287F7C1.67A9F25B [at] no.spam>):
>{snip}
>> Anyway, the Enemy's servants nearly recover the Ring several times.
>> When did they come closest?
>{snip}
>
>When Frodo was in Osgiliath and tried to offer it up to the flying Nazgul.
>
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

What clowns you Marines are!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Pave the planet! One world. One people. One slab of asphalt.
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36691 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 15:51
Jens Kilian  
Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> writes:
> Or perhaps Smeagol was merely held for most of that time before
> the DL got around to questioning him.

Well, there's the paperwork to be done first. (cf. _Brazil_ :-)
--
mailto:jjk [at] acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
http://del.icio.us/jjk
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36692 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 16:42
Samsonknight  
"Jens Kilian" <jjk [at] acm.org> wrote in message
news:87psvre0t2.fsf [at] gondolin.bb.bawue.de...
> Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> writes:
>> Or perhaps Smeagol was merely held for most of that time before
>> the DL got around to questioning him.
>
> Well, there's the paperwork to be done first. (cf. _Brazil_ :-)

lol

> --
> mailto:jjk [at] acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a
> fish,
> http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible.
> [Blake]
> http://del.icio.us/jjk
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36707 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 20:55
Prai Jei  
Sean (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<4287F7C1.67A9F25B [at] no.spam>:

> ...to recovering the Ring?
>
> I'm not sure from the Tale of Years exactly when Sauron learned
> from Gollum that it had been found:
>
> 2941 - Bilbo finds the ring
> 2944 - Gollum leaves the mountains, searching for the "thief"
> 2951 - Gollum turns towards Mordor (7 years searching and he still
> couldn't find his way to the Shire?)
> 2980 - Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor (this took 29 years?)
> 3017 - Gollum is released from Mordor (after 37 years interrogation)
>
> It can be assumed that Sauron learned about "Thief Baggins" and
> the Shire some time after 2980.

And crucially, that's all that Gollum had to tell. He would have had no idea
where the Shire was, or even what species Baggins had been. Perhaps he did
blunder about Mirkwood (avoiding the Wood-elves) and the vast wastes of
Rhun for seven years, but I couldn't see him contemplating searching
westwards. Through Moria? Up and over Caradhras? Through the Gap of Rohan?
All these routes were haunted, either by creatures far more evil than
Gollum, or by the good guys. Either way, nassssty little Gollum wouldn't
want any truck with them, no no my precioussssss.

So to Mordor it is then, and do some preliminary scouting around the edges
of the Black Land (under the unseen but watchful Eye). The search gradually
fades into the background during the 2950's as he makes the acquaintance of
Shelob and other denizens of the Enemy Country, settling down to a
comfortable-ish living during the 60s and 70s. Eventually of course,
perhaps Gollum gets a little too close to something the common rabble
shouldn't see, so he is captured, imprisoned and interrogated.

But the interrogation wouldn't last long. Sauron would soon know all that
Gollum knew - and would know that Gollum knew no more - so perhaps Gollum
spends most of the 80s and 90s and into the new millennium in Sauron's
dungeons, or perhaps Sauron sends him out on local spying missions, nobody
knows.

But by 3017 Sauron is aware that the game is afoot. Fairy-stories about a
party and the mysterious disappearance of Mad Baggins have reached him. But
nobody believes these tales out of the Shire of course.

"Hang on a mo. Baggins? Shire? Yes - the Ring! And this Shire place seems to
be in the far West where Arnor used to be, out towards the Elf-country of
Lune. No, my little slave could never undertake a journey to the far West.
I've often wondered who those imp-creatures were that the Witch-king felled
at one blow back in 1974. Must have got left out of all the old lists. Ah
yes, but not just the Witch-king, let's gather the whole Nine together, put
the frighteners on all these imps and grab the Ring."
--
A couple of questions. How do I stop the wires short-circuiting, and what's
this nylon washer for?

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36708 ] Mo, 16 Mai 2005 20:58
Prai Jei  
Morgil (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<d68u3e$8ee$1 [at] nyytiset.pp.htv.fi>:

> I would have expected him to bend
>> all his power in that direction ASAP, and yet it isn't until 3018
>> that the Black Riders finally show up in the Shire.
>
> Gollum cheated Sauron and gave him wrong directions to Shire.

No, I don't believe that. Gollum didn't know where the Shire was. If he had
done, he would have had no will to resist or to give false info.
--
A couple of questions. How do I stop the wires short-circuiting, and what's
this nylon washer for?

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #36719 ] Di, 17 Mai 2005 00:42
Larry Swain  
Morgil wrote:
> Sean wrote:
>
>> ...to recovering the Ring?
>>
>> I'm not sure from the Tale of Years exactly when Sauron learned
>> from Gollum that it had been found:
>
>
> You need to read Gandalf's account as well.
>
>> 2941 - Bilbo finds the ring
>> 2944 - Gollum leaves the mountains, searching for the "thief"
>> 2951 - Gollum turns towards Mordor (7 years searching and he still
>> couldn't find his way to the Shire?)
>
>
> It took 7 years to find out where Bilbo was from. Gollum went
> through Mirkwood to Esgaroth and snooped around Dale and then
> turned back to west, before turning South to Mordor.
>
>> 2980 - Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor (this took 29 years?)
>
>
> The way I see it, he went back and forth, turned away now and
> then but then turned back again, maybe sometimes found a nice
> place and stayed there for few years until felt forced to move
> again.
>
>> 3017 - Gollum is released from Mordor (after 37 years interrogation)
>
>
> Nope. 3009 - goes to Mordor and is captured. 8 years.

At most. We only know that Gollum was captured sometimes between 3009
and 3017, could have only been a month of interrogation.
>
>> It can be assumed that Sauron learned about "Thief Baggins" and the
>> Shire some time after 2980.
>
>
> Some time after 3010.
>
> I would have expected him to bend
>
>> all his power in that direction ASAP, and yet it isn't until 3018 that
>> the Black Riders finally show up in the Shire.
>
>
> Gollum cheated Sauron and gave him wrong directions to Shire.


True, the Black Riders had no clue where it was.
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #38971 ] Mi, 18 Mai 2005 18:01
Rhiannon Sands  
"Sean" <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote in message news:4287F7C1.67A9F25B [at] no.spam...
> ...to recovering the Ring?

When Frodo put it on at Mount Doom surely? I mean if Gollum hadn't fallen
into the Lava with it, then wouldn't the Nazgul have taken it there?

ICBW
--

Rhiannon_S
Yes, I am a fluffly bunny, but so was the one in Monty Python!
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #38972 ] Mi, 18 Mai 2005 18:18
Sampo Smolander  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote:
> 2951 - Gollum turns towards Mordor (7 years searching and he still
> couldn't find his way to the Shire?)

If you would get out of a cave in the Alps some time in the medieval
Europe, how long would you think it would take to find some tiny land just
somewhere in Europe that nobody ever heard of?
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #38983 ] Mi, 18 Mai 2005 22:41
Taemon  
Sampo Smolander wrote:

> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Sean <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote:
>> 2951 - Gollum turns towards Mordor (7 years searching and he
>> still
>> couldn't find his way to the Shire?)
> If you would get out of a cave in the Alps some time in the
> medieval
> Europe, how long would you think it would take to find some
> tiny land
> just somewhere in Europe that nobody ever heard of?

Well, I can find the Netherlands just fine, thank you very much!

T.
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #38993 ] Do, 19 Mai 2005 02:42
NobodyMan  
On Wed, 18 May 2005 17:01:04 +0100, "Rhiannon Sands"
<mddestiny [at] aol.com> wrote:

>
>"Sean" <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote in message news:4287F7C1.67A9F25B [at] no.spam...
>> ...to recovering the Ring?
>
>When Frodo put it on at Mount Doom surely? I mean if Gollum hadn't fallen
>into the Lava with it, then wouldn't the Nazgul have taken it there?
>
>ICBW

Doubtful, More than likely, they would have paid false allegiance to
Frodo, giving Sauron time to get to Sammath Naur and claim the ring
himself.
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #38999 ] Do, 19 Mai 2005 07:23
Sean  
Sampo Smolander wrote:

> If you would get out of a cave in the Alps some time in the medieval
> Europe, how long would you think it would take to find some tiny land just
> somewhere in Europe that nobody ever heard of?

I would lurk in the dark streets of Zurich at night, listening through
keyholes and windows to the latest gossip: Battle of Waterloo,
dragon killed, dwarves under the Matterhorn again, Bilbo **Baggins**
heads home for Nottingham**shire** with bags of treasure, etc.

Sean
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #39000 ] Do, 19 Mai 2005 07:30
Graham Lockwood  
On Thu, 19 May 2005 00:23:29 -0500, Sean wrote
(in article <428C2607.83EF43E9 [at] no.spam>):

> Sampo Smolander wrote:
>
>> If you would get out of a cave in the Alps some time in the medieval
>> Europe, how long would you think it would take to find some tiny land just
>> somewhere in Europe that nobody ever heard of?
>
> I would lurk in the dark streets of Zurich at night, listening through
> keyholes and windows to the latest gossip: Battle of Waterloo,
> dragon killed, dwarves under the Matterhorn again, Bilbo **Baggins**
> heads home for Nottingham**shire** with bags of treasure, etc.

But then you have to be able to find your way from Zurich to Nottinghamshire.
Without asking anyone for directions.



---
Graham
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #40095 ] Do, 19 Mai 2005 15:22
Jim Harker  
NobodyMan wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2005 17:01:04 +0100, "Rhiannon Sands"
> <mddestiny [at] aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"Sean" <no.spam [at] no.spam> wrote in message news:4287F7C1.67A9F25B [at] no.spam...
>>
>>>...to recovering the Ring?
>>
>>When Frodo put it on at Mount Doom surely? I mean if Gollum hadn't fallen
>>into the Lava with it, then wouldn't the Nazgul have taken it there?
>>
>>ICBW
>
>
> Doubtful, More than likely, they would have paid false allegiance to
> Frodo, giving Sauron time to get to Sammath Naur and claim the ring
> himself.
>
This is just what Tolkien himself said in letter 246!
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #40128 ] Fr, 20 Mai 2005 07:25
gregnelson3  
How intese was Sauron's "hold" on Saruman durong the years of Gollum's
searching? Saruman had even persuaded the White Council to dealy dealing
with the Sorcerer of Dol Guldur because he had a hunch that Sauron was
searching for the Ring in the nearby Gladden Fields environs, and he desired
a signal of its finding. Wisely Gandalf surely kept quiet of Bilbo's "find"
(of which he had an immediate inkling in The Hobbit, Out of the Frying Pan
Into the Fire: " ... your story has a [R]ing of truth ..."), when he left
Thorin & Company on the western Mirkwood to join the White Council,
presumably in Lothlorien or at Isengard - his heart suspected Saruman that
early-on.

Greg Nelson (troll emerging from shadows :-)
We are who we are because they were who they were.
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #45840 ] Fr, 20 Mai 2005 15:08
OMeallyMD  
gregnelson3 [at] cox.net wrote:
> How intese was Sauron's "hold" on Saruman durong the years of Gollum's
> searching?

I don't think it was as much a "hold" on Saruman as he was working as a
free agent to aquire the Ring for himself.

Saruman had even persuaded the White Council to dealy
> dealing with the Sorcerer of Dol Guldur because he had a hunch that
> Sauron was searching for the Ring in the nearby Gladden Fields
> environs, and he desired a signal of its finding. Wisely Gandalf
> surely kept quiet of Bilbo's "find" (of which he had an immediate
> inkling in The Hobbit, Out of the Frying Pan Into the Fire: " ...
> your story has a [R]ing of truth ..."), when he left Thorin & Company
> on the western Mirkwood to join the White Council, presumably in
> Lothlorien or at Isengard - his heart suspected Saruman that early-on.

In UT, it is suggested that Saruman's heart was turned against Gandalf
early on after finding out that Cirdan had favored Gandalf by giving him
Narya. He held an ill will "which afterwards became manifest". I take
this to mean that the seeds of Saruman's corruption were planted even
earlier on, and his corruption was not necessarily the work of Sauron.
Certainly, for the corrupt (or the corruptable) the power that Sauron
could offer would be a temptation and Saruman took the bait. I think
Gandalf might have had some gut feelings about Saruman's corruption, but
even then he seems to have trusted him until July of 3018 when he
approached Saruman for advise, but became a prisoner in Orthanc.


>
> Greg Nelson (troll emerging from shadows :-)

There's nothing trollish about your post. :-)

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: When did Sauron come closest... [message #45845 ] Do, 19 Mai 2005 19:49
John Jones  
"Graham Lockwood" <g-ng [at] yeehawgropes.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BEB18E9100E17D6DF0407600 [at] news.x-privat.org...
> On Thu, 19 May 2005 00:23:29 -0500, Sean wrote
> (in article <428C2607.83EF43E9 [at] no.spam>):
>
> > Sampo Smolander wrote:
> >
> >> If you would get out of a cave in the Alps some time in the medieval
> >> Europe, how long would you think it would take to find some tiny land
just
> >> somewhere in Europe that nobody ever heard of?
> >
> > I would lurk in the dark streets of Zurich at night, listening through
> > keyholes and windows to the latest gossip: Battle of Waterloo,
> > dragon killed, dwarves under the Matterhorn again, Bilbo **Baggins**
> > heads home for Nottingham**shire** with bags of treasure, etc.
>
> But then you have to be able to find your way from Zurich to
Nottinghamshire.
> Without asking anyone for directions.
>
And it's the wrong place anyway :o)
Vorheriges Thema:Re: History of Arnor
Nächstes Thema:Re: Gollum's Escape
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