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Science Fiction » alt.startrek » Disappointed
| Disappointed [message #34524] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:05 |
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Yeah, I know. I'll usually stand up for Enterprise and B&B, but the finale
seemed like it was written and put together by monkeys. Terra Prime was
excellent and would have made a good finale by itself...what was the point
of "These are the Voyages"?
Obviously when the series started we all expected to see it end with the
birth of the Federation, so it was fitting to see it end there, however, the
epi had next to nothing to do with the major event that was supposed to be
happening.
Riker and Troi being in the epi would have been tolerable if it weren't for
the 'imposing' decision that had to be made. Given that we all knew what
choice Riker was going to make because he had made it about 10 years ago in
a fairly good epi of TNG really just made me care all the less about his
problem. Since they obviously *really* wanted those two onboard for the show
they could have come up with a better reason, if nothing else then just to
watch the formation of the Federation.
It would have also been interesting to hear at least a bit of Archer's
speech. We the viewers got cheated out of it big time. While I'm sure that
not everyone would agree with me, the speech would have made a great climax
to the show and the series, but we get cheated out of it because Troi
already knew it and Riker wanted to go whine to Picard about his old
captain. I'll cross my fingers but I won't hold my breath that it'll showup
when the DVD comes out.
And I would also like to know what happened to T'pol during the 6 years we
missed. Why did her character get so weak?
Then we come to poor Trip. It almost felt like the whole show was written
just to kill the character off. It would have been great to have an episode
looking more at the formation of the Federation, but instead we get a weird
little story of the crew going to pick up Shran's daughter and culminating
in Trip nuking himself because apparently the ship had no sensors, no
security personel, and easy to open airlocks. His death would have made much
more sense if they had killed him off in Terra Prime, protecting his
daughter or something like that. The only reason I can think of as to why
they didn't is the possibility of a movie set place in the six years we
missed. His death could have had far more impact then it did. To top it off,
for those viewers that didn't know he probably wouldn't make it thru the
whole episode, Troi just tells you 10 minutes of the way in. Don't get me
wrong, I liked Trip, I liked him enough to feel like he got cheated out of
the proper death he deserved(that sounds morbid).
--
Eric Nichols
Psalm 138:8
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34526 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:22 |
|
Big disappointment. Always liked this show (5x better than Voyager),
and the first show tonight was good, but why'd they have to screw
everything up like this to finish it. There was no good reason to kill
Trip and how could he and T'Pol not have had anything going on for six
years? Also, the conversations with Riker as the chef were weird in
that they didn't really happen in the 'real' events of Enterprise.
Sort of seems like the writers wanted to burn a few bridges even while
leaving those six years potentially open.
C.B.
Eric Nichols wrote:
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> Yeah, I know. I'll usually stand up for Enterprise and B&B, but the
finale
> seemed like it was written and put together by monkeys. Terra Prime
was
> excellent and would have made a good finale by itself...what was the
point
> of "These are the Voyages"?
>
> Obviously when the series started we all expected to see it end with
the
> birth of the Federation, so it was fitting to see it end there,
however, the
> epi had next to nothing to do with the major event that was supposed
to be
> happening.
>
> Riker and Troi being in the epi would have been tolerable if it
weren't for
> the 'imposing' decision that had to be made. Given that we all knew
what
> choice Riker was going to make because he had made it about 10 years
ago in
> a fairly good epi of TNG really just made me care all the less about
his
> problem. Since they obviously *really* wanted those two onboard for
the show
> they could have come up with a better reason, if nothing else then
just to
> watch the formation of the Federation.
>
> It would have also been interesting to hear at least a bit of
Archer's
> speech. We the viewers got cheated out of it big time. While I'm sure
that
> not everyone would agree with me, the speech would have made a great
climax
> to the show and the series, but we get cheated out of it because Troi
> already knew it and Riker wanted to go whine to Picard about his old
> captain. I'll cross my fingers but I won't hold my breath that it'll
showup
> when the DVD comes out.
>
> And I would also like to know what happened to T'pol during the 6
years we
> missed. Why did her character get so weak?
>
> Then we come to poor Trip. It almost felt like the whole show was
written
> just to kill the character off. It would have been great to have an
episode
> looking more at the formation of the Federation, but instead we get a
weird
> little story of the crew going to pick up Shran's daughter and
culminating
> in Trip nuking himself because apparently the ship had no sensors, no
> security personel, and easy to open airlocks. His death would have
made much
> more sense if they had killed him off in Terra Prime, protecting his
> daughter or something like that. The only reason I can think of as to
why
> they didn't is the possibility of a movie set place in the six years
we
> missed. His death could have had far more impact then it did. To top
it off,
> for those viewers that didn't know he probably wouldn't make it thru
the
> whole episode, Troi just tells you 10 minutes of the way in. Don't
get me
> wrong, I liked Trip, I liked him enough to feel like he got cheated
out of
> the proper death he deserved(that sounds morbid).
>
> --
> Eric Nichols
> Psalm 138:8
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34528 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:18 |
|
Eric Nichols wrote:
"Within moments, I will be on the 'internet' expressing my disgust.
Worst. Episode. Ever." -- Comic Book Guy.
> Spoiler Space Added Because TiVo Rocks.
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Agreed with all you said. They screwed the end of Enterprise just like
they screwed the end of Nemesis. Berman doesn't have a FRICKIN CLUE how
to write a story let alone know what Star Trek fans want.
Berman must die.
--
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall
pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend,
oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of
liberty. This much we pledge—and more.
- President John F. Kennedy, Jan. 20, 1961
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34529 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:33 |
|
<foxcb5 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1116040957.306149.300570 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Big disappointment. Always liked this show (5x better than Voyager),
> and the first show tonight was good, but why'd they have to screw
> everything up like this to finish it. There was no good reason to kill
> Trip and how could he and T'Pol not have had anything going on for six
> years? Also, the conversations with Riker as the chef were weird in
> that they didn't really happen in the 'real' events of Enterprise.
> Sort of seems like the writers wanted to burn a few bridges even while
> leaving those six years potentially open.
I thought I had heard somewhere that the idea for chef was actually
originally written for Shatner(Kirks grandfather or something) and was to be
a regular show in the series based on the crew's conversations with chef.
The idea was nixed because they couldn't afford Shatner's pricetag.
Also, wasn't it established in season 1 that NOBODY was EVER allowed in
chef's kitchen?
--
Eric Nichols
Psalm 138:8
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34530 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:34 |
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> "Within moments, I will be on the 'internet' expressing my disgust.
> Worst. Episode. Ever." -- Comic Book Guy.
lol...That almost made me wet my pants....uh...almost...
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34531 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:38 |
|
"Nobody" <abuse [at] tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:P5ehe.32774$IO.26253 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Agreed with all you said. They screwed the end of Enterprise just like
> they screwed the end of Nemesis. Berman doesn't have a FRICKIN CLUE how to
> write a story let alone know what Star Trek fans want.
>
> Berman must die.
Well, everyone would love what UPN News Entertainment review said - that
'most fans don't blame the stories for Enterprises downfall, they blame 2
people - Executive Producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga'
They then had an interview with (someone, not "important") that went like
(with subtitle of "Comic book shop manager" or similar) 'We've been unhappy
with Berman for a long time. To be fair, you can only make creative
decisions for so long...'
So UPN News pretty much sh!#canned Berman for us on a major network. I was
proud. :)
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34543 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 06:27 |
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Eric Nichols wrote:
> I liked ****, I liked him enough to feel like he got cheated out of
> the proper death he deserved
Imagine how us Kirk fans feel. :/
(still!)
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34548 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 07:07 |
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Disappointed?!
After the episode was over I chanted, "THAT BLEW!" to my wife for about 5
minutes. Disappointed? Add disgusted to that. They knew they were ending
the show and all they could come up with was that? And why not a 2 hour
finale like every other Trek series (the 2nd part of Terra Prime doesn't
count)?
Although it was interesting how they tied it in with the TNG episode about
the Pegasus. Maybe they should have done a few shows with different TNG
characters viewing history in the holodeck throughout the run.
All I can think now is what I've been saying since the show started: ANY fan
could have done a better job writing the show.
And I'll never get over that damn theme song.
"May whatever god you believe in have mercy on your soul..."
"Eric Nichols" <sugarbearnichols [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kWdhe.1670$aM4.118 [at] newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> Spoiler Space Added Because TiVo Rocks.
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>
> Yeah, I know. I'll usually stand up for Enterprise and B&B, but the finale
> seemed like it was written and put together by monkeys. Terra Prime was
> excellent and would have made a good finale by itself...what was the point
> of "These are the Voyages"?
>
> Obviously when the series started we all expected to see it end with the
> birth of the Federation, so it was fitting to see it end there, however,
> the
> epi had next to nothing to do with the major event that was supposed to be
> happening.
>
> Riker and Troi being in the epi would have been tolerable if it weren't
> for
> the 'imposing' decision that had to be made. Given that we all knew what
> choice Riker was going to make because he had made it about 10 years ago
> in
> a fairly good epi of TNG really just made me care all the less about his
> problem. Since they obviously *really* wanted those two onboard for the
> show
> they could have come up with a better reason, if nothing else then just to
> watch the formation of the Federation.
>
> It would have also been interesting to hear at least a bit of Archer's
> speech. We the viewers got cheated out of it big time. While I'm sure that
> not everyone would agree with me, the speech would have made a great
> climax
> to the show and the series, but we get cheated out of it because Troi
> already knew it and Riker wanted to go whine to Picard about his old
> captain. I'll cross my fingers but I won't hold my breath that it'll
> showup
> when the DVD comes out.
>
> And I would also like to know what happened to T'pol during the 6 years we
> missed. Why did her character get so weak?
>
> Then we come to poor Trip. It almost felt like the whole show was written
> just to kill the character off. It would have been great to have an
> episode
> looking more at the formation of the Federation, but instead we get a
> weird
> little story of the crew going to pick up Shran's daughter and culminating
> in Trip nuking himself because apparently the ship had no sensors, no
> security personel, and easy to open airlocks. His death would have made
> much
> more sense if they had killed him off in Terra Prime, protecting his
> daughter or something like that. The only reason I can think of as to why
> they didn't is the possibility of a movie set place in the six years we
> missed. His death could have had far more impact then it did. To top it
> off,
> for those viewers that didn't know he probably wouldn't make it thru the
> whole episode, Troi just tells you 10 minutes of the way in. Don't get me
> wrong, I liked Trip, I liked him enough to feel like he got cheated out of
> the proper death he deserved(that sounds morbid).
>
> --
> Eric Nichols
> Psalm 138:8
>
>
|
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34570 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 13:47 |
|
"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:118avi3on3r98a8 [at] news.supernews.com...
> Eric Nichols wrote:
>
>> I liked ****, I liked him enough to feel like he got cheated out of
>> the proper death he deserved
>
> Imagine how us Kirk fans feel. :/
Well, Kirk is still in the Nexus, alive.
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34576 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 15:26 |
|
Er, no. The Nexus Kirk is what left the Nexus to help Picard. A "person"
is in the Nexus only once - their "shadow" (like Guinan) is what stays.
It's not the physical individual, as Guinan said. Only a "part" of the
person.
"Jedtere Avilis" <jedtereavilis [at] yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:Azlhe.83931$Tz3.992176 [at] weber.videotron.net...
>
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:118avi3on3r98a8 [at] news.supernews.com...
>> Eric Nichols wrote:
>>
>>> I liked ****, I liked him enough to feel like he got cheated out of
>>> the proper death he deserved
>>
>> Imagine how us Kirk fans feel. :/
>
>
> Well, Kirk is still in the Nexus, alive.
>
|
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34581 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 15:51 |
|
Jedtere Avilis wrote:
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:118avi3on3r98a8 [at] news.supernews.com...
>
>>Eric Nichols wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I liked ****, I liked him enough to feel like he got cheated out of
>>>the proper death he deserved
>>
>>Imagine how us Kirk fans feel. :/
>
>
>
> Well, Kirk is still in the Nexus, alive.
>
>
That's the way I prefer to think of it.
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34587 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 16:30 |
|
"Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:u0nhe.818$_f7.128 [at] trndny01...
> Er, no. The Nexus Kirk is what left the Nexus to help Picard. A "person"
> is in the Nexus only once - their "shadow" (like Guinan) is what stays.
> It's not the physical individual, as Guinan said. Only a "part" of the
> person.
No, don't even try to convince me they weren't sitting around one day, out
of story ideas, and the idea came up, well...Shatner is still in the Nexus,
lets get him out.
--
Eric Nichols
Psalm 138:8
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34589 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 16:34 |
|
Just as an addition to my previous post
For an explosion so large it blew a hole through a few bulkheads, there was
an awful lot of Trip left.
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34612 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 19:07 |
|
"Eric Nichols" <sugarbearnichols [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:A%nhe.1716$aM4.284 [at] newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> Just as an addition to my previous post
> For an explosion so large it blew a hole through a few bulkheads, there
was
> an awful lot of Trip left.
>
>
The other problem with it is that there was no reason for Trip to take such
a dramatic course of action. It's the kind of situation that happens all the
time in Trek, and y'know, you play along with the dumbass aliens until you
can find a cool way to turn the tables on them. They weren't there to
assassinate Archer; his life wasn't in that much danger.
But then, this did take place on a military starship where nobody bothers to
get in touch with the captain when the ship comes under attack, and nobody
bothers to respond to a security alert, nor even to a major explosion. Where
were the rest of the crew?
Well, the whole thing isn't canon anyway. It's a holodeck recreation, so
unless Starfleet are keeping detailed logs on every conversation held by
every crew member, and the state of their romantic relationships, we can
safely say that none of what we saw "actually happened". The only thing
Starfleet would have on record for the holodeck to use would be the mode of
Trip's death, the fact that the ship was boarded, and maybe that they went
on the unofficial detour to help Shran.
I really think if there ever is another Trek incarnation, this episode
should be completely ignored as non-canon.
Time to start that campaign to get the next movie *not* made...
Ian
--
____________________
A quality online comic strip for the discerning reader.
With shagging in it.
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
|
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34631 ] |
Sa, 14 Mai 2005 23:39 |
|
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Jedtere Avilis wrote:
>
>> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
>> news:118avi3on3r98a8 [at] news.supernews.com...
>>
>>> Eric Nichols wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I liked ****, I liked him enough to feel like he got cheated out of
>>>> the proper death he deserved
>>>
>>>
>>> Imagine how us Kirk fans feel. :/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, Kirk is still in the Nexus, alive.
>>
> That's the way I prefer to think of it.
Yep, he's alive in the Nexus, married to Antonia.
|
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34685 ] |
So, 15 Mai 2005 06:57 |
|
"Jaxtraw" <jaxtraw [at] nospamnobigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:42862f94$0$93754$ed2619ec [at] ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
>
> Well, the whole thing isn't canon anyway. It's a holodeck recreation, so
> unless Starfleet are keeping detailed logs on every conversation held by
> every crew member, and the state of their romantic relationships, we can
> safely say that none of what we saw "actually happened". The only thing
> Starfleet would have on record for the holodeck to use would be the mode
of
> Trip's death, the fact that the ship was boarded, and maybe that they went
> on the unofficial detour to help Shran.
>
But it was established that you could take known information about and by
someone and have the computer create a simulation of the person and how they
would react. Remember Leah Brahms?
Of course, it isn't always completely accurate. Remember Leah Brahms? :]
Bo Raxo
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34701 ] |
So, 15 Mai 2005 13:05 |
|
"Bo Raxo" <invasions_r_us [at] thepentagon.removethis.com> wrote in message
news:4FAhe.800$X92.635 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Jaxtraw" <jaxtraw [at] nospamnobigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:42862f94$0$93754$ed2619ec [at] ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
> >
> > Well, the whole thing isn't canon anyway. It's a holodeck recreation, so
> > unless Starfleet are keeping detailed logs on every conversation held by
> > every crew member, and the state of their romantic relationships, we can
> > safely say that none of what we saw "actually happened". The only thing
> > Starfleet would have on record for the holodeck to use would be the mode
> of
> > Trip's death, the fact that the ship was boarded, and maybe that they
went
> > on the unofficial detour to help Shran.
> >
>
> But it was established that you could take known information about and by
> someone and have the computer create a simulation of the person and how
they
> would react. Remember Leah Brahms?
>
> Of course, it isn't always completely accurate. Remember Leah Brahms?
:]
>
>
That doesn't mean that the recreation is in any way *accurate*, any more
than a movie portrayal of Julius Ceasar or Alfred the Great or Jesus or some
other historical personage is accurate. It can only be an interpretation of
what the inherently limited historical information suggests. With a
character from a novel it can be pretty good (e.g. Moriarty) since the
character will have been well described by an author, and isn't real anyway.
But for real people, we can confidently say that the holodeck is just making
it up as it goes along.
Furthermore, since Riker was interacting with the simulacra, he created a
new scenario by doing that. T'Pol talked to Trip about missing each other
because Riker had prompted her to, for instance. Even within the Trek
"reality"; the events on this NX-01 are just fiction. Yes, Trip canonically
died, but whether he said "Go to hell", the computer would have no way of
knowing, and would just put those words in "his" mouth.
How they *would* react is far removed from how they *did* react.
Ian
--
____________________
A quality online comic strip for the discerning reader.
With shagging in it.
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
|
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| Re: Disappointed [message #34754 ] |
So, 15 Mai 2005 20:51 |
|
"Jaxtraw" <jaxtraw [at] nospamnobigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:42872c2d$0$579$ed2619ec [at] ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> "Bo Raxo" <invasions_r_us [at] thepentagon.removethis.com> wrote in message
> news:4FAhe.800$X92.635 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Jaxtraw" <jaxtraw [at] nospamnobigfoot.com> wrote in message
> > news:42862f94$0$93754$ed2619ec [at] ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
> > >
> > > Well, the whole thing isn't canon anyway. It's a holodeck recreation,
so
> > > unless Starfleet are keeping detailed logs on every conversation held
by
> > > every crew member, and the state of their romantic relationships, we
can
> > > safely say that none of what we saw "actually happened". The only
thing
> > > Starfleet would have on record for the holodeck to use would be the
mode
> > of
> > > Trip's death, the fact that the ship was boarded, and maybe that they
> went
> > > on the unofficial detour to help Shran.
> > >
> >
> > But it was established that you could take known information about and
by
> > someone and have the computer create a simulation of the person and how
> they
> > would react. Remember Leah Brahms?
> >
> > Of course, it isn't always completely accurate. Remember Leah Brahms?
> :]
> >
> >
>
> That doesn't mean that the recreation is in any way *accurate*, any more
> than a movie portrayal of Julius Ceasar or Alfred the Great or Jesus or
some
> other historical personage is accurate. It can only be an interpretation
of
> what the inherently limited historical information suggests.
But if you have their personal logs, and the personal logs of people who
knew them. And you're allowed to use these, say, 50 years after their
deaths. That's significantly more input. It's eyewitness accounts, of
people's entire lives, not just the period in question.
>With a
> character from a novel it can be pretty good (e.g. Moriarty) since the
> character will have been well described by an author, and isn't real
anyway.
> But for real people, we can confidently say that the holodeck is just
making
> it up as it goes along.
When Geordi created the Brahms simulation, didn't the computer say it would
be 86% accurate? And that was just doing it on the fly. An historical
recreation would probably have a lot of work put in to it, and would
probably be pretty darn accurate.
>
> Furthermore, since Riker was interacting with the simulacra, he created a
> new scenario by doing that. T'Pol talked to Trip about missing each other
> because Riker had prompted her to, for instance. Even within the Trek
> "reality"; the events on this NX-01 are just fiction. Yes, Trip
canonically
> died, but whether he said "Go to hell", the computer would have no way of
> knowing, and would just put those words in "his" mouth.
True. When I say Enterprise is now canon, I mean in the general sense that
the NextGen people have a history in their universe in which the NX-01 did
exist, with that crew, and went on the missions we've seen in "Enterprise".
>
> How they *would* react is far removed from how they *did* react.
>
No, I think it's pretty close, because the amount of input data they would
have for the simulation would be pretty large. Plus we've got centuries
more of study of human psychology - look what we've learned in a mere one
century of scientific inquiry in to the subject. Multiply that by another
three or four centuries, toss in the personal logs, mission logs, and other
records from everybody that person ever encountered in their entire
lifetime, and I think you'd get a pretty good simulation.
Which would make it not 100% accurate, say, that Tucker said those exact
words before causing the explosion. But it would mean he was very, very
likely to say something like that (it does seem in character), and that's a
pretty good guess as to what he'd say in such a situation.
Bo Raxo
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