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Science Fiction » alt.startrek » F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA!
F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34520] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 04:46
sailormoon  
P
R
E
T
T
Y

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

What the fuck?!

The series finale sucked so bad! Troi said Trip would die. Then, when
it seemed like Trip would die, he didn't, so we had hope. Then he got
seriously injured, and they cut to a commercial break, and he died
before they came back from break!

The main plot of this episode, rescuing Shran's hitherto unmentioned
daughter, was weak.

The framing story wasn't better.

Why bother recreating the Enterprise-D at all if they couldn't get the
details right. Just keep it holodeck-based or use stills of empty
corridors from TNG and put Frakes and Sirtis in front of a green
screen.

And what's this shit about Riker being ready to talk to Captain
Picard? Riker didn't actually decide to break his silence until after
he'd been on the Pegasus, and the Enterprise was trapped in the
asteroid.

We didn't even get to see the founding of the Federation. Archer's all
ready to give his big speech, and then Riker's like "Hyuck! Computer,
end program."

Why did Frakes and Sirtis ever agree to do this?


Mark
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34521 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 04:47
El Rey de los Chingon  
"Mark Moore" <sailormoon [at] naturecoast.net> wrote in message
news:48d3c1d3.0505131846.5515c151 [at] posting.google.com...
>
> Why did Frakes and Sirtis ever agree to do this?

They got paid.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34522 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 04:51
Snake  
"Mark Moore" <sailormoon [at] naturecoast.net> wrote in message
news:48d3c1d3.0505131846.5515c151 [at] posting.google.com...
> P
> R
> E
> T
> T
> Y
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> What the fuck?!
>
> The series finale sucked so bad! Troi said Trip would die. Then, when
> it seemed like Trip would die, he didn't, so we had hope. Then he got
> seriously injured, and they cut to a commercial break, and he died
> before they came back from break!

It was a "flashback" - that scene was showing Trip's visit with the chef
prior to his death. Note some of Trip's comments, like his still talking
about Archer's decision to help at all along with other things. The problem
is it was **utterly** confusing to go back to this scene, in "flashback"
mode, without an explanation to the viewer and right after his death.

> We didn't even get to see the founding of the Federation. Archer's all
> ready to give his big speech, and then Riker's like "Hyuck! Computer,
> end program."

That's a really damn good question. I guess "The less you say the more you
allow later" Star Trek was in effect here, for sure.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34523 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:03
sailormoon  
Snake wrote:
> > The series finale sucked so bad! Troi said Trip would die. Then,
when
> > it seemed like Trip would die, he didn't, so we had hope. Then he
got
> > seriously injured, and they cut to a commercial break, and he died
> > before they came back from break!
>
> It was a "flashback" - that scene was showing Trip's visit with the
chef
> prior to his death. Note some of Trip's comments, like his still
talking
> about Archer's decision to help at all along with other things. The
problem
> is it was **utterly** confusing to go back to this scene, in
"flashback"
> mode, without an explanation to the viewer and right after his death.

I'm not talking abou that. I'm talking about:

Archer places Trip in the scanner. Trip smiles.

Commercial break.

T'Pol is packing up Trip's things.


Mark
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34525 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:12
nobody  
Mark Moore wrote:

> P
> R
> E
> T
> T
> Y
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> The main plot of this episode, rescuing Shran's hitherto unmentioned
> daughter, was weak.

What was the point of all that anyway? Just to kill Trip? Jeez, that
could have been done A LOT better.

> We didn't even get to see the founding of the Federation. Archer's all
> ready to give his big speech, and then Riker's like "Hyuck! Computer,
> end program."

No kidding. I was all ready to hear Archer's speech when it cut away.
*WTF*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Berman must die.



--
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall
pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend,
oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of
liberty. This much we pledge—and more.

- President John F. Kennedy, Jan. 20, 1961
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34533 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:46
Notifier Deamon  
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34534 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:50
sailormoon  
Straker wrote:
> > The series finale sucked so bad! Troi said Trip would die. Then,
when
> > it seemed like Trip would die, he didn't, so we had hope. Then he
got
> > seriously injured, and they cut to a commercial break, and he died
> > before they came back from break!
>
> It's the magic of the holodeck. Trip did die. But Riker still wanted
to
> talk to Trip, so he had the holodeck resurrect Holo-Trip for his
little
> heart-to-heart.

Again, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the sickbay
scene, followed by the commercial break, followed by T'Pol in Trip's
quarters.


Mark
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34535 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:54
barber_anooooo  
"Straker" <sky.diver [at] moonbase.alpha> wrote in message
news:130520052346472226%sky.diver [at] moonbase.alpha...
> In article <48d3c1d3.0505131846.5515c151 [at] posting.google.com>, Mark
> Moore <sailormoon [at] naturecoast.net> wrote:
>
>> P
>> R
>> E
>> T
>> T
>> Y
>>
>> S
>> P
>> O
>> I
>> L
>> E
>> R
>>
>> S
>> P
>> A
>> C
>> E
>>
>> What the fuck?!
>>
>> The series finale sucked so bad! Troi said Trip would die. Then, when
>> it seemed like Trip would die, he didn't, so we had hope. Then he got
>> seriously injured, and they cut to a commercial break, and he died
>> before they came back from break!
>
> It's the magic of the holodeck. Trip did die. But Riker still wanted to
> talk to Trip, so he had the holodeck resurrect Holo-Trip for his little
> heart-to-heart.


Or have Riker and Troi run Trip's death scenario over and over again,
taking bets on how he will improvise the deaths of the aliens, in different
parts of the ship... Troi "this time lets see if Trip can kill them in the
gallery ,then lets see how he would kill them in the shuttle bay"
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34536 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:55
Snake  
<sailormoon [at] naturecoast.net> wrote in message
news:1116039828.780170.311210 [at] g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'm not talking abou that. I'm talking about:
>
> Archer places Trip in the scanner. Trip smiles.
>
> Commercial break.
>
> T'Pol is packing up Trip's things.

Oh. OK, I was wondering about that also. Flox's scanners sounded the
cardiac arrest warning (at least, that's what it sounded like!) and they
lift Trip up. Then he's all fine and dandy, giving Archer a wink.

I guess it wasn't a cardiac arrest warning

:please stand by for Instant Replay:

Flox does not announce death, his words are "We need to get him in the
chamber, NOW!" It wasn't a steady tone warning like the cardiac arrest, it
did indeed sound like a imminent system collapse warning instead.

A bit vague. Maybe there's room for that scene to work out in the end but
it was very confusing when you first watched it. They could have done
better, for sure, in terms of being more precise in what was going on if you
are going to make Trip look dead one second and winking the next.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34537 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 05:59
Snake  
<barber_anooooo [at] ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:NDehe.12713$Ph4.441919 [at] ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...

> Or have Riker and Troi run Trip's death scenario over and over again,
> taking bets on how he will improvise the deaths of the aliens, in
> different parts of the ship... Troi "this time lets see if Trip can kill
> them in the gallery ,then lets see how he would kill them in the shuttle
> bay"

Yeah!! The "Kill Trip" doll!

"Let's space him and watch the explosion"

"How about putting him in the middle of the antimatter flow?"

"I know, I know! Let's strap a torpedo to his ass, adjust it to use
chronition particles, then fire it at Berman's great-great-great-great
grandchild's house in hopes of committing a retro-abortion!"
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34538 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 06:04
jack_a_rass  
barber_anooooo [at] ns.sympatico.ca wrote:

> Or have Riker and Troi run Trip's death scenario over and over again,
> taking bets on how he will improvise the deaths of the aliens, in different
> parts of the ship... Troi "this time lets see if Trip can kill them in the
> gallery ,then lets see how he would kill them in the shuttle bay"
>
>
LOL! Now that would have been entertaining!
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34539 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 06:11
barber_anooooo  
"jack_a_rass" <jack_a_rass [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:JNehe.21597$w15.11711 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> barber_anooooo [at] ns.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
>> Or have Riker and Troi run Trip's death scenario over and over again,
>> taking bets on how he will improvise the deaths of the aliens, in
>> different parts of the ship... Troi "this time lets see if Trip can
>> kill them in the gallery ,then lets see how he would kill them in the
>> shuttle bay"
> LOL! Now that would have been entertaining!

Before we get trip to kill them again, make the aliens all look like Neelix
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34540 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 06:19
jack_a_rass  
barber_anooooo [at] ns.sympatico.ca wrote:
> "jack_a_rass" <jack_a_rass [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:JNehe.21597$w15.11711 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
>>barber_anooooo [at] ns.sympatico.ca wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Or have Riker and Troi run Trip's death scenario over and over again,
>>>taking bets on how he will improvise the deaths of the aliens, in
>>>different parts of the ship... Troi "this time lets see if Trip can
>>>kill them in the gallery ,then lets see how he would kill them in the
>>>shuttle bay"
>>
>>LOL! Now that would have been entertaining!
>
>
> Before we get trip to kill them again, make the aliens all look like Neelix
>
>

Great idea! How about ruining Trek even further with only annoying
characters as the crew, like Neelix, Wesley Crusher, etc,?
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34542 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 06:22
barber_anooooo  
"jack_a_rass" <jack_a_rass [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0%ehe.32777$IO.13552 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> barber_anooooo [at] ns.sympatico.ca wrote:
>> "jack_a_rass" <jack_a_rass [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:JNehe.21597$w15.11711 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>>
>>>barber_anooooo [at] ns.sympatico.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Or have Riker and Troi run Trip's death scenario over and over again,
>>>> taking bets on how he will improvise the deaths of the aliens, in
>>>> different parts of the ship... Troi "this time lets see if Trip can
>>>> kill them in the gallery ,then lets see how he would kill them in the
>>>> shuttle bay"
>>>
>>>LOL! Now that would have been entertaining!
>>
>>
>> Before we get trip to kill them again, make the aliens all look like
>> Neelix
>
> Great idea! How about ruining Trek even further with only annoying
> characters as the crew, like Neelix, Wesley Crusher, etc,?

Sure... a single episode similar to "The Last Action hero" where the
producers get to visit their own show, and the episode ends with a trip down
a black hole.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34551 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 07:19
Dave Roy  
On Sat, 14 May 2005 02:51:13 GMT, "Snake"
<fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.net> wrote:

>"Mark Moore" <sailormoon [at] naturecoast.net> wrote in message
>news:48d3c1d3.0505131846.5515c151 [at] posting.google.com...
>> P
>> R
>> E
>> T
>> T
>> Y
>>
>> S
>> P
>> O
>> I
>> L
>> E
>> R
>>
>> S
>> P
>> A
>> C
>> E
>>
>> What the fuck?!
>>
>> The series finale sucked so bad! Troi said Trip would die. Then, when
>> it seemed like Trip would die, he didn't, so we had hope. Then he got
>> seriously injured, and they cut to a commercial break, and he died
>> before they came back from break!
>
>It was a "flashback" - that scene was showing Trip's visit with the chef
>prior to his death. Note some of Trip's comments, like his still talking
>about Archer's decision to help at all along with other things. The problem
>is it was **utterly** confusing to go back to this scene, in "flashback"
>mode, without an explanation to the viewer and right after his death.

Actually, I thought they made it pretty obvious, especially when Riker
says "I hear we're going to pick up Shran." I knew immediately it was
a flashback, with no confusion.

Dave
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34553 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 07:36
Snake  
"Dave Roy" <hist [at] shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:5g2b81lq627fg0344hlq8u2pbtrh047qhq [at] 4ax.com...
>>> P
>>> R
>>> E
>>> T
>>> T
>>> Y
>>>
>>> S
>>> P
>>> O
>>> I
>>> L
>>> E
>>> R
>>>
>>> S
>>> P
>>> A
>>> C
>>> E
>>>
> Actually, I thought they made it pretty obvious, especially when Riker
> says "I hear we're going to pick up Shran." I knew immediately it was
> a flashback, with no confusion.

I believe some have already expressed confusion.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34557 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 07:59
Daniel Damouth  
Dave Roy <hist [at] shaw.ca> wrote in
news:5g2b81lq627fg0344hlq8u2pbtrh047qhq [at] 4ax.com:

> On Sat, 14 May 2005 02:51:13 GMT, "Snake"
> <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.net> wrote:

>>It was a "flashback" - that scene was showing Trip's visit with
>>the chef prior to his death. Note some of Trip's comments, like
>>his still talking about Archer's decision to help at all along
>>with other things. The problem is it was **utterly** confusing to
>>go back to this scene, in "flashback" mode, without an explanation
>>to the viewer and right after his death.
>
> Actually, I thought they made it pretty obvious, especially when
> Riker says "I hear we're going to pick up Shran." I knew
> immediately it was a flashback, with no confusion.

Plus the unskinned carrots were a huge clue.

-Dan Damouth
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34559 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 08:22
Gene Davis  
I think they just screwed up in editing and got the scenes out of
order. It's obvious when the scene takes place, but there is nothing
to explain it as flash back and not a major editing goof. I'm guessing
that his death had so little to do with the plot (WHAT PLOT?!!),
that the guys putting it together didn't realize the scenes where
out of order. It was such an unbearably bad episode that no one
reviewed to notice the scene was in the wrong place.

On 5/13/05 11:59 PM, in article
Xns9655E9E824CFEdamouthsanrrcom [at] 66.75.169.13, "Daniel Damouth"
<damouth [at] san.rr.com> wrote:

> Dave Roy <hist [at] shaw.ca> wrote in
> news:5g2b81lq627fg0344hlq8u2pbtrh047qhq [at] 4ax.com:
>
>> On Sat, 14 May 2005 02:51:13 GMT, "Snake"
>> <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>> It was a "flashback" - that scene was showing Trip's visit with
>>> the chef prior to his death. Note some of Trip's comments, like
>>> his still talking about Archer's decision to help at all along
>>> with other things. The problem is it was **utterly** confusing to
>>> go back to this scene, in "flashback" mode, without an explanation
>>> to the viewer and right after his death.
>>
>> Actually, I thought they made it pretty obvious, especially when
>> Riker says "I hear we're going to pick up Shran." I knew
>> immediately it was a flashback, with no confusion.
>
> Plus the unskinned carrots were a huge clue.
>
> -Dan Damouth
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34561 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 08:52
David B  
Nobody wrote:

> Mark Moore wrote:
>
> > P
> > R
> > E
> > T
> > T
> > Y
> >
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> >
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> >
> > The main plot of this episode, rescuing Shran's hitherto unmentioned
> > daughter, was weak.
>
> What was the point of all that anyway? Just to kill Trip? Jeez, that
> could have been done A LOT better.
>

so could every Trek character death. Except for Spock's they all could've
been better.

>
> > We didn't even get to see the founding of the Federation. Archer's all
> > ready to give his big speech, and then Riker's like "Hyuck! Computer,
> > end program."
>
> No kidding. I was all ready to hear Archer's speech when it cut away.
> *WTF*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He gave one in Terra Prime. It would be lame to have him do a big speach two
episodes in a row.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34562 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 08:53
David B  
Snake wrote:

> "Dave Roy" <hist [at] shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:5g2b81lq627fg0344hlq8u2pbtrh047qhq [at] 4ax.com...
> >>> P
> >>> R
> >>> E
> >>> T
> >>> T
> >>> Y
> >>>
> >>> S
> >>> P
> >>> O
> >>> I
> >>> L
> >>> E
> >>> R
> >>>
> >>> S
> >>> P
> >>> A
> >>> C
> >>> E
> >>>
> > Actually, I thought they made it pretty obvious, especially when Riker
> > says "I hear we're going to pick up Shran." I knew immediately it was
> > a flashback, with no confusion.
>
> I believe some have already expressed confusion.

There's always some viewers who get confused no matter how clear things are.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34578 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 15:33
sailormoon  
Gene Davis wrote:
> I think they just screwed up in editing and got the scenes out of
> order. It's obvious when the scene takes place, but there is nothing
> to explain it as flash back and not a major editing goof. I'm
guessing
> that his death had so little to do with the plot (WHAT PLOT?!!),
> that the guys putting it together didn't realize the scenes where
> out of order. It was such an unbearably bad episode that no one
> reviewed to notice the scene was in the wrong place.

I think it was deliberate. Riker simply saved talking to Trip for last.


Mark
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34580 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 15:43
Snake  
<sailormoon [at] naturecoast.net> wrote in message
news:1116077581.746688.126880 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Gene Davis wrote:
>> I think they just screwed up in editing and got the scenes out of
>> order. It's obvious when the scene takes place, but there is nothing
>> to explain it as flash back and not a major editing goof. I'm
> guessing
>> that his death had so little to do with the plot (WHAT PLOT?!!),
>> that the guys putting it together didn't realize the scenes where
>> out of order. It was such an unbearably bad episode that no one
>> reviewed to notice the scene was in the wrong place.
>
> I think it was deliberate. Riker simply saved talking to Trip for last.

If that was true then this whole thing - questioning internal storyline
continuity - could have been dealt with by Riker simply muttering
"Computer...", then a camera cut to the scene to show that this is what
Riker wanted - a post-death / pre-death interview with Trip.

I believe most of us agree that it was the original, pre-death / pre-death
Trip visit to chef. The main problem is the way the film editing was
handled, which raises these huge questions. This is what I mean "some
people already have expressed confusion". Editing should /never/ be
confusing; the film editing should have been undeniable in implying what was
occurring. Therefore the editing, the story continuity - or both - were
horrid.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34582 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 16:08
nospam  
"Mark Moore" <sailormoon [at] naturecoast.net> wrote in message
news:48d3c1d3.0505131846.5515c151 [at] posting.google.com...
> P
> R
> E
> T
> T
> Y
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> What the fuck?!
>
> The series finale sucked so bad! Troi said Trip would die. Then, when
> it seemed like Trip would die, he didn't, so we had hope. Then he got
> seriously injured, and they cut to a commercial break, and he died
> before they came back from break!
>
> The main plot of this episode, rescuing Shran's hitherto unmentioned
> daughter, was weak.
>
> The framing story wasn't better.
>
> Why bother recreating the Enterprise-D at all if they couldn't get the
> details right. Just keep it holodeck-based or use stills of empty
> corridors from TNG and put Frakes and Sirtis in front of a green
> screen.
>
> And what's this shit about Riker being ready to talk to Captain
> Picard? Riker didn't actually decide to break his silence until after
> he'd been on the Pegasus, and the Enterprise was trapped in the
> asteroid.
>
> We didn't even get to see the founding of the Federation. Archer's all
> ready to give his big speech, and then Riker's like "Hyuck! Computer,
> end program."
>
> Why did Frakes and Sirtis ever agree to do this?
>
>
> Mark

While on one hand it was kind of neat to see the 1701-D again (I greatly
prefer it to the E), I don't think Enterprise needed a B & B endorsed "stamp
of approval" from a show that ended over 10 years ago.
Enterprise was always intended to have more in common with TOS, which only
Cotto seemed to actually care about delivering, but now B & B wanted to
associate it with TNG, tantamount to saying the show wasn't legit unless
that was done.
It's too bad Bill Gates or someone else with the cash didn't just buy the
show and ensure a fifth season - they could have trashed this finale and let
Manny Cotto continue his pattern of success.
Another disappointing thing - nothing at all mentioned about the
Earth-Romulan war, which should have already happened and ended by the time
the episode took place.
Surely something as significant as that would have merited mentioning, but I
guess B & B were tired of references to TOS.
Or maybe they refrained from mentioning it just to screw over any fans who
would have appreciated it.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34584 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 16:03
never  
On Fri, 13 May 2005 23:53:57 -0700, David B <bothecat3 [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Snake wrote:
>
>> "Dave Roy" <hist [at] shaw.ca> wrote in message
>> news:5g2b81lq627fg0344hlq8u2pbtrh047qhq [at] 4ax.com...
>> >>> P
>> >>> R
>> >>> E
>> >>> T
>> >>> T
>> >>> Y
>> >>>
>> >>> S
>> >>> P
>> >>> O
>> >>> I
>> >>> L
>> >>> E
>> >>> R
>> >>>
>> >>> S
>> >>> P
>> >>> A
>> >>> C
>> >>> E
>> >>>
>> > Actually, I thought they made it pretty obvious, especially when Riker
>> > says "I hear we're going to pick up Shran." I knew immediately it was
>> > a flashback, with no confusion.
>>
>> I believe some have already expressed confusion.
>
>There's always some viewers who get confused no matter how clear things are.
>
>
Wow. They have something in common with the producers of the
show.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34585 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 16:29
Stan Jensen  
If you expected anything else from those idiots, I'm surprised at you.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34594 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 16:45
First-2-Die  
"Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.net> wrote in message
> I believe most of us agree that it was the original, pre-death / pre-death
> Trip visit to chef.

Agree? If English is your first language it was pretty clear once the
dialogue rolled. Initially though, I thought we were about to be served up
with a Trip-save by way of a holodeck issue. After all in the real world
they're adding to the body of historical knowledge every day. Take the King
Tut press this week. I was holding out hope Riker was about to correct the
historical records.

As it was shot, it was fairly dramatic to see the recently deceased Trip
walk into the galley for his final shots on Enterprise. And that's the best
thing I can say about that - except maybe "Thank God B&B didn't have Riker
kiss Trip on the cheek!".

Red Shirt
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34601 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 17:24
Snake  
" First-2-Die" <redshirt [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:_9ohe.397$uR4.311 [at] newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Agree? If English is your first language it was pretty clear once the
> dialogue rolled.

I believe you are missing all my points. "Once the dialog rolled".
Exactly. And it was still up to the viewer to put the pieces of that dialog
together. That's really not great film editing nor story telling; a couple
of simple plot devices were available to use by the writer / director to
avoid this vagueness but were not used.

> Initially though, I thought we were about to be served up with a Trip-save
> by way of a holodeck issue.

Which proves that even you were confused by the scene cut initially, but
once you managed to put the pieces together you understood what was going
on. If, by some reason, you missed some of the connections you were unable
to put those pieces together yourself.

This was totally avoidable.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34606 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 18:22
RWF  
>
> Why did Frakes and Sirtis ever agree to do this?


cause neither has had any other substantial acting offers in years? (no
surprise to me)

--
RWF, the Queen of Diamonds in the eeeevil Cabal.
"just add chocolate and serve"
Never to be forgotten.. Mr. Sunshine, the Ace of Diamonds
Stephen G Christianson, 1963-2005
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34613 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 19:09
First-2-Die  
"Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:IKohe.1618$BF5.1266 [at] trndny06...
>" First-2-Die" <redshirt [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:_9ohe.397$uR4.311 [at] newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> Agree? If English is your first language it was pretty clear once the
>> dialogue rolled.
>
> I believe you are missing all my points. "Once the dialog rolled".
> Exactly. And it was still up to the viewer to put the pieces of that
> dialog together. That's really not great film editing nor story telling;
> a couple of simple plot devices were available to use by the writer /
> director to avoid this vagueness but were not used.

I'm old school - dialogue has its place in film. I don't require instant
visual gratification to connect the dots for me.

>
>> Initially though, I thought we were about to be served up with a
>> Trip-save by way of a holodeck issue.
>
> Which proves that even you were confused by the scene cut initially, but
> once you managed to put the pieces together you understood what was going
> on.

Confused no, surprised yes - just like they intended. Come on this is Star
Trek, they can write themselves out of any corner if they want (and if
they're competent enough) - you need to pay attention and perk up for these
things. In that sense most of us were waiting for the delivery which as it
turned out in short order was a low impact fizzle - this scene was earlier
and changed nothing - Trip was in fact dead.

I realize the fad these days if for short choppy scenes, lots of CGI and
sound bites that serve up instant visual gratification - just don't expect
all of us to demand it or even embrace it. Words still mean something to
some and most scenes (for me) are not worthy of the term if they lack
dialogue packing some heat. That's the part about Picard's character that
worked for me, and I loathe most of the TNG works. Personally, I believe in
aiming for the middle of your audience, pull them upwards and don't worry
too much about the ones that can't hang on for the ride. But that's just me
and I admittedly don't have to worry about meeting a budget, selling
advertisers and all those pesky other little things that can intrude into
the utopian world of the perfectly written and filmed art.

> If, by some reason, you missed some of the connections you were unable to
> put those pieces together yourself.
> This was totally avoidable.

Well I didn't miss it as I suspect most didn't either. I'm from the camp
that hails from the old school when viewers were entrusted by writers to
possess enough smarts not to have everything spoon fed to them. While I'm
on shaky ground mentioning Sergio Leone's name anywhere near a B&B work, the
displaced Trip scene in the galley was made somewhat in a time honored Leone
fashion. And as such, was nothing new. The fact that people are discussing
it serves the point of why scenes are shot like that and inserted out of
order.

It's nothing to avoid if the majority of the people got it only to have a
few others that were distracted by the baby crying, the video game they were
playing or the one guy that logged on half way thru the show to post how
much he loved the TATV so far. WTF is up with that?

Do I agree with the scene or think there was anything great about it? Oh
hell no, Trip had no business being killed off. TATV had no business being
written and aired for hat matter, but that's already well travelled ground
on this morning after. As for Trip's fate , I wouldn't be surprised if the
actor (Trineer is it?) demanded the character be killed off so that he could
disassociate himself from B&B and ST-E in the future. Although he's probably
classier than that.

I hope all the cast moves on to bigger and better things. Their Star Trek
days are finished, I suspect a mutual hate-hate between cast and B&B. Dunno
what Dean Stockwell's status is but I'd love to see him and Bakula pair up
for a cable movie that provides a better resolution of Sam Beckett's fate.

Onrereading this I realize it might come across maybe a little sharp toned -
not my intention. I'm too lazy to go back and add smileys or softeners, so
just know it "ain't no thing" if it comes across heavy handed. Oh, uh...
:-)

Red Shirt
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34614 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 19:16
Hunter  
sailorm... [at] naturecoast.net wrote:
> Straker wrote:
> > > The series finale sucked so bad! Troi said Trip would die. Then,
> when
> > > it seemed like Trip would die, he didn't, so we had hope. Then he
> got
> > > seriously injured, and they cut to a commercial break, and he
died
> > > before they came back from break!
> >
> > It's the magic of the holodeck. Trip did die. But Riker still
wanted
> to
> > talk to Trip, so he had the holodeck resurrect Holo-Trip for his
> little
> > heart-to-heart.
>
> Again, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the
sickbay
> scene, followed by the commercial break, followed by T'Pol in Trip's
> quarters.
>
>
> Mark
----
Actually a scene similar to that are done on dramas all the time,
especially medical dramas. The patient goes critical, the doctors fight
to save him including using the defibrilator as the screen fades to
black.....then come out of commercial break to see an orderly making up
the now dead man's bed. Seen scenes like than on ER plenty of times.

---->Hunter
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34616 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 19:29
Hunter  
Joseph S. Powell, III wrote:
> "Mark Moore" <sailormoon [at] naturecoast.net> wrote in message
> news:48d3c1d3.0505131846.5515c151 [at] posting.google.com...
> > P
> > R
> > E
> > T
> > T
> > Y
> >
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> >
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> >
> > What the fuck?!
> >
> > The series finale sucked so bad! Troi said Trip would die. Then,
when
> > it seemed like Trip would die, he didn't, so we had hope. Then he
got
> > seriously injured, and they cut to a commercial break, and he died
> > before they came back from break!
> >
> > The main plot of this episode, rescuing Shran's hitherto
unmentioned
> > daughter, was weak.
> >
> > The framing story wasn't better.
> >
> > Why bother recreating the Enterprise-D at all if they couldn't get
the
> > details right. Just keep it holodeck-based or use stills of empty
> > corridors from TNG and put Frakes and Sirtis in front of a green
> > screen.
> >
> > And what's this shit about Riker being ready to talk to Captain
> > Picard? Riker didn't actually decide to break his silence until
after
> > he'd been on the Pegasus, and the Enterprise was trapped in the
> > asteroid.
> >
> > We didn't even get to see the founding of the Federation. Archer's
all
> > ready to give his big speech, and then Riker's like "Hyuck!
Computer,
> > end program."
> >
> > Why did Frakes and Sirtis ever agree to do this?
> >
> >
> > Mark
>
> While on one hand it was kind of neat to see the 1701-D again (I
greatly
> prefer it to the E), I don't think Enterprise needed a B & B endorsed
"stamp
> of approval" from a show that ended over 10 years ago.
> Enterprise was always intended to have more in common with TOS, which
only
> Cotto seemed to actually care about delivering, but now B & B wanted
to
> associate it with TNG, tantamount to saying the show wasn't legit
unless
> that was done.
> It's too bad Bill Gates or someone else with the cash didn't just buy
the
> show and ensure a fifth season - they could have trashed this finale
and let
> Manny Cotto continue his pattern of success.
> Another disappointing thing - nothing at all mentioned about the
> Earth-Romulan war, which should have already happened and ended by
the time
> the episode took place.
> Surely something as significant as that would have merited
mentioning, but I
> guess B & B were tired of references to TOS.
> Or maybe they refrained from mentioning it just to screw over any
fans who
> would have appreciated it.
-----
Kirk did say about 100 years ago is when the Earth Romulan War took
place but that could be a floating figure. It could had been 110 years
ago or 95 years ago leaving time for it to happen just after the events
we saw on ST:Enterpise" Humans can be nortoriously inaccurrate, as
Spock, Tuvok, T'Pol and Data know to their frustrations.

---->Hunter
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34618 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 20:01
Al Smith  
> It's the magic of the holodeck. Trip did die. But Riker still wanted to
> talk to Trip, so he had the holodeck resurrect Holo-Trip for his little
> heart-to-heart.

Which further cheapened Trip's death.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34620 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 20:03
Al Smith  
>>Actually, I thought they made it pretty obvious, especially when
>>> Riker says "I hear we're going to pick up Shran." I knew
>>> immediately it was a flashback, with no confusion.
>
>
> Plus the unskinned carrots were a huge clue.

Riker should have been the one chewing the raw carrots, the porker.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34624 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 21:18
Shaun  
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E


>What the fuck?!

That pretty much says it all... How did B&B remain in charge of this
dead cash cow for so damned long? They drove VOY into the ground
(thank goodness they never paid much attention to DS9) and I didn't
think they could sink any lower. ENT never struck me as a terrible
show, just a boring one with really bland characters (save for Trip and
T'Pol).

B&B blatantly disregarded Trek history and continuity, but that finally
changed when Manny Coto and the Reeves-Stevenses came on board. had
they been there from the start, I think ENT would've thrived and might
still be in production. The things they did this past season are what
they should've been doing from the start. This was by no means a
perfect season, but it might've made an impressive first season. This
finale was a travesty, however. It was B&B flipping the bird to the
fans one last time. Why didn't they let the Reeves-Stevenses write
this? Oh wait, they sort of did. With some minor fixes, the second
part of "Terra Prime" would've made a much better ending.

>Then he got
>seriously injured, and they cut to a commercial >break, and he died
>before they came back from break!

Of the many things worong with this show, Trip's death was the worst
and most pointless. Why kill one of the only two interesting
characters on the show? Why have him die during a commercial break and
never show anyone mourning for him? Strangely unaffecting. Now
writers of ENT books will be very limited in what they can do with the
characters (not that I've ready any ENT books, but now I definitely
won't!). Just as stupid, was having Trip and T'Pol break up while we
weren't looking. That just killed the poignant, but hopeful, ending to
the previous episode!

>The main plot of this episode, rescuing Shran's >hitherto unmentioned
>daughter, was weak.

Sure was... Shran, unknown to us, fakes his death for unknown reasons
after falling in with a bunch of unknown rotten apples. Then they
kidnap his previously unknown daughter for (guess what!) unknown
reasons. This was forced and incredibly weak.

>And what's this shit about Riker being ready to >talk to Captain
>Picard? Riker didn't actually decide to break his >silence until after

>he'd been on the Pegasus, and the Enterprise >was trapped in the
>asteroid.

No one should expect B&B to pay any attention to continuity. I suppose
Riker could've made up his mind earlier and just sat back, still unsure
of himself until the moment he finally does speak out, but that's even
weaker than the Shran subplot. What's most insulting is that this
episode had almost nothing to do with the ENT characters. they were
just supporting players for a story that was all about Will Riker.
What kind of send-off is that? Let's not mention how fat, pasty Frakes
was looking. He's also losing his hair in a big way. No way I
believed this was the same time as the Pegasus incident.

>We didn't even get to see the founding of the >Federation. Archer's
all
>ready to give his big speech, and then Riker's >like "Hyuck! Computer,

>end program."

I'll say it again... Why did B&B script this travesty? They had no
idea how to write a stirring speech, or how to put meaningful words in
a character's mouth, so all they do is tell us about this "legendary"
speech rather than show us.

>Why did Frakes and Sirtis ever agree to do >this?

They had nothing else to do? Frakes' directing career has probably
dried up after Insurrection underperformed and Thunderbirds completely
bombed. And Sirtis Well, aside from Trek films/TV guest
shots/conventions what else does she have? I just wonder if they felt
sort of ashamed taking the spotlight away frm the ENT actors. I also
wonder how resentful the ENT cast was. I know Jolene Blalock hated the
episode, and rightly so.

Oh, and the Data "appearance" was really lame and unfunny too. What
was the point of all of this? Too bad, because ENT was just starting
to get enjoyable... Oh well. Maybe now Trek will get the long hiatus
it needs.

Peace,
Shaun
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34626 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 21:26
Shaun  
> > >We didn't even get to see the founding of the Federation. Archer's
all
> > >ready to give his big speech, and then Riker's like "Hyuck!
Computer,
> >> end program."

>> No kidding. I was all ready to hear Archer's speech when it cut
away.
>> *WTF*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>He gave one in Terra Prime. It would be lame to >have him do a big
speach two
>episodes in a row.

But this is why the final episode was so stupid... The Terra Prime
two-parter, while flawed, would've made a much better end to the
series. Again, it was B&B's inability to have the characters say or
doing anything meaningful. Their entire tenure as the caretakers of
the franchise was marred by their ineptitude.

I got thinking about this after the episode aired, but "These Are the
Voyages..." might've worked as a two-part episode of TNG back in 1993.
An episode detailing the birth of the Federation might've been a lot of
fun. it wouldn't have been exactly like this one, but it might've been
close to what we saw. As a finale to ENT? Complete waste of time and
an insult to the fans of the series, however few there might be.

Peace,
Shaun
Peace,
Shaun
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34627 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 21:29
Shaun  
>There's always some viewers who get confused >no matter how clear
things are.

Sort of like the "Why was Riker so pissed off at O'Brien on DS9?"
question that people ask every time that episode airs? I can't believe
people still get confused by that one.

Peace,
Shaun
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34630 ] Sa, 14 Mai 2005 22:53
David B  
Snake wrote:

> <sailormoon [at] naturecoast.net> wrote in message
> news:1116077581.746688.126880 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> > Gene Davis wrote:
> >> I think they just screwed up in editing and got the scenes out of
> >> order. It's obvious when the scene takes place, but there is nothing
> >> to explain it as flash back and not a major editing goof. I'm
> > guessing
> >> that his death had so little to do with the plot (WHAT PLOT?!!),
> >> that the guys putting it together didn't realize the scenes where
> >> out of order. It was such an unbearably bad episode that no one
> >> reviewed to notice the scene was in the wrong place.
> >
> > I think it was deliberate. Riker simply saved talking to Trip for last.
>
> If that was true then this whole thing - questioning internal storyline
> continuity - could have been dealt with by Riker simply muttering
> "Computer...", then a camera cut to the scene to show that this is what
> Riker wanted - a post-death / pre-death interview with Trip.
>
> I believe most of us agree that it was the original, pre-death / pre-death
> Trip visit to chef. The main problem is the way the film editing was
> handled, which raises these huge questions. This is what I mean "some
> people already have expressed confusion". Editing should /never/ be
> confusing; the film editing should have been undeniable in implying what was
> occurring. Therefore the editing, the story continuity - or both - were
> horrid.

I don't see how there can be any confusion since in that scene Riker as Chef
mentions to Trip that they haven't picked up Shran yet.
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34641 ] So, 15 Mai 2005 02:18
Shaun  
>As it was shot, it was fairly dramatic to see the recently >deceased
Trip
>walk into the galley for his final shots on Enterprise. And >that's
the best
>thing I can say about that - except maybe "Thank God B&B >didn't have
Riker
>kiss Trip on the cheek!".

Recently departed? It was more like a couple hundred years since his
death happened. :-)

Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have Riker give Trip a big smooch.
As much as I hated the finale, I got cracked up when Riker was talking
to Reed (I think it was Reed) and Riker suddenly asks "Did you find
yourself attracted to him?" It looked like he was asking Reed that
question, but then shot changes and you realize it was Sato that Riker
was addressing. Pretty much the only thing that made me smile the
whole hour.

Peace,
Shaun
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34651 ] So, 15 Mai 2005 02:59
steven.davisNOSPAM  
Mark Moore wrote:
> P
> R
> E
> T
> T
> Y
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> What the fuck?!
My thoughts exactly, but for different reasons it seems.

> The series finale sucked so bad! Troi said Trip would die.
Which I had no idea about and it brought a great sense of tension to the
episode.

> Then, when
> it seemed like Trip would die, he didn't, so we had hope. Then he got
> seriously injured, and they cut to a commercial break, and he died
> before they came back from break!
If you will watch commercials in TV, you have got to expect them to ruin the
flow to some extent.
Go and get Tivo or something.

>
> The main plot of this episode, rescuing Shran's hitherto unmentioned
> daughter, was weak.
Nah, was ok. Blue skin was always a good character.

>
> The framing story wasn't better.
>
> Why bother recreating the Enterprise-D at all if they couldn't get the
> details right.
Looked ok to me (non fanatic here).

> And what's this shit about Riker being ready to talk to Captain
> Picard? Riker didn't actually decide to break his silence until after
> he'd been on the Pegasus, and the Enterprise was trapped in the
> asteroid.
I didn't really give a shit about what Riker was going to do, and I don't
really remember the TNG ep either, which made it slightly confusin.

>
> We didn't even get to see the founding of the Federation. Archer's all
> ready to give his big speech, and then Riker's like "Hyuck! Computer,
> end program."
Amen. Now we agree fully.

This was what ruined the episode, I loved the rest of it, but then the
holodeck was closed and I expected to hear a great speech about sacrifice,
understanding differences, exploration, and the WHOLE FUCKING REASON THEY
WENT INTO SPACE/WHY HUMANDS SHOULD GET ALONG ON PLANET EARTH that it had
been building upto (and would be 10 times better that the retarded shit in
the previous episode).
Instead I get some BULLSHIT with the 3 enterprises, which seems to kinda
MISS THE FUCKING POINT to me.

I was fully expecting after the holodeck fade out, to a fade in to the
speech.

>
> Why did Frakes and Sirtis ever agree to do this?
They were ok, not great, but ok.
Made me pine a little for TNG actually :-/
The episode didn't need to be 6 years in the future anyway, that did just
seem like a gimic.

Perhaps they were signed up to do a lookback holodeck episode before
cancellation was known about, that would make sense.

My rating out of five before the end would have been a 4.5, at the end in
was a 0, in consideration, I expect a 2.5 or so.

>
>
> Mark

For the record I liked the theme song (<ducks>) and thought the entire
series was of variable quality (from dogshit like the transporter wheelchair
bottle show, to glorious fun in the alternate universe), but 50 times better
than all the cheap reality TV that gets shat over the airways these days.

--
STE ;¬!
Re: F**K BERMAN AND BRAGA! [message #34654 ] So, 15 Mai 2005 03:41
Bo Raxo  
"David B" <bothecat3 [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4285A033.3023E9A6 [at] hotmail.com...
> Nobody wrote:
>
> > Mark Moore wrote:
> >
> > > P
> > > R
> > > E
> > > T
> > > T
> > > Y
> > >
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > >
> > > S
> > > P
> > > A
> > > C
> > > E
> > >
> > > The main plot of this episode, rescuing Shran's hitherto unmentioned
> > > daughter, was weak.
> >
> > What was the point of all that anyway? Just to kill Trip? Jeez, that
> > could have been done A LOT better.
> >
>
> so could every Trek character death. Except for Spock's they all could've
> been better.
>

Even Spock's had one bad touch: those ridiculous oversized white gloves; in
the long shots he looked like Mickey Mouse.

Trip's death was well done in terms of plotting: he died defending his ship
from intruders, on it's last voyage - it's like the cop who gets shot the
day before he retires. Classic story.

And done in a flash-forward that leaves six years of untold stories on
Enterprise that he could be a part of. If they do a made-for-tv movie or
mini-series there is no problem including his character.

What was terrible was how it was told. The inevitable sick bay scene that's
been done a million times. And no dramatic resolution: he's alive, we go to
commercial, and everybody is already at the third stage of the mourning
process. Huh?

How much better to just have him dead right there, in the corridor, blown in
half or just nothing left of him.

Or have the blast, and cut to Archer in sickbay, injured by the explosion.
He wakes up, asks what happened, and is told he was far enough away to
survive the blast that killed Tucker and the raiding party.

Quick pacing improves this kind of show, and mostly this episode had it.
But the story really dragged in that lame "Trip is such a trooper!" scene in
sickbay.


Bo Raxo
Vorheriges Thema:Re: Did fat loser Shatner ever get charged for drowning his wife? (she used his toupee for a lifesav
Nächstes Thema:Now that small-screen Star Trek is over, anything else good out there?
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