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Science Fiction » alt.fan.douglas-adams » What I think..
What I think.. [message #29289] Mi, 04 Mai 2005 19:30
Notifier Deamon  
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
Re: What I think.. [message #29293 ] Mi, 04 Mai 2005 20:01
Sparky AKA_Sparkticus  
Kenny Hutchings wrote:
> I think...
>
> That Labour are probably going to win the general election in the UK
> tomorrow, and nothing will really change. I won't be ecstatic over the
> result, but it'll do.
>
>
> (Sorry, I'm at the point where reading 160 opinions about the movie
> has me thoroughly bored of the argument now, so I thought I'd post
> something off-topic to start a different debate..)
>
> K.

nail this man to a Tree..........
--

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
Re: What I think.. [message #29305 ] Mi, 04 Mai 2005 21:30
afda  
On Wed, 4 May 2005 18:30:58 +0100, Kenny Hutchings
<mhfk51 [at] dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

>I think...
>
>That Labour are probably going to win the general election in the UK
>tomorrow, and nothing will really change. I won't be ecstatic over the
>result, but it'll do.

No matter who you vote for, the government always gets in.

>(Sorry, I'm at the point where reading 160 opinions about the movie has
>me thoroughly bored of the argument now, so I thought I'd post something
>off-topic to start a different debate..)

Tut-tut! You should've appropriately tagged the subject with [B] for
whatever-it-was-that-signified this kind of thing.

Lloyd
--
"In fact, everything between 'herring' and 'marmalade'
appears to be missing" -- Svlad Cjelli
Re: What I think.. [message #29320 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 00:56
spam05  
Kenny Hutchings <mhfk51 [at] dsl.pipex.com> hit the keyboard.
Afterwards the following was on the screen:

> I think...
>
> That Labour are probably going to win the general election in the UK
> tomorrow, and nothing will really change. I won't be ecstatic over the
> result, but it'll do.

I haven't really followed the election. Mostly probably due to the
fact that I do not live in the UK...

I just happen to think of the South Park episode, where the conclusion
is that most elections are between a turd and a douche...

> (Sorry, I'm at the point where reading 160 opinions about the movie has
> me thoroughly bored of the argument now, so I thought I'd post something
> off-topic to start a different debate..)

/me hugs Kenny gratefully

/Rasmus

--
-- [ Rasmus "Møffe" Bøg Hansen ] ---------------------------------------
Just install Windows. It will crash once a day, and your hardware
will no longer be the poblem.
----------------------------------------------[ moffe at zz9 dot dk ] --
Re: What I think.. [message #29323 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 00:53
euv_uffda  
"Kenny Hutchings" <mhfk51 [at] dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ce3172372289dd8989695 [at] nntp.dsl.pipex.com...
> I think...
>
> That Labour are probably going to win the general election in the UK
> tomorrow, and nothing will really change. I won't be ecstatic over the
> result, but it'll do.

That's ok, I live in the States...even with the Tories in power you guys
would be better off than the USA.

(note: I do follow your politics as I travel to the UK yearly)
Re: What I think.. [message #29355 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 11:10
Huggy Hare  
Don't get me going!

Anyone who votes for Blair will walk over at least 100,000 bodies of
inocent people, killed in defiance of international law and who were
living in a country who never fired a shot at us (UK/USA).

Although it's true that Blair lied his way into a war and the Tories
use that info against him, anyone who votes Tories will get the SAME
THING. Blair, like Bush are following orders. All politicians are
puppets being held up by the same people behind the scenes.
Re: What I think.. [message #29370 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 12:45
Kaare Fiedler Christi  
Sparky AKA_Sparkticus wrote:
> Kenny Hutchings wrote:
>
>>I think...
>>
>>That Labour are probably going to win the general election in the UK
>>tomorrow, and nothing will really change. I won't be ecstatic over the
>>result, but it'll do.
>>
>>
>>(Sorry, I'm at the point where reading 160 opinions about the movie
>>has me thoroughly bored of the argument now, so I thought I'd post
>>something off-topic to start a different debate..)
>>
>>K.
>
>
> nail this man to a Tree..........

Why, he didn't say anything about how great it would be if people were
nice to eachother for a change, did he?

Best
Kåre
Re: What I think.. [message #29372 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 12:50
spam05  
Kaare Fiedler Christiansen <news [at] kaarefc.dk> hit the keyboard.
Afterwards the following was on the screen:

> Sparky AKA_Sparkticus wrote:
>> Kenny Hutchings wrote:
>>
>>>I think...
>>>
>>>That Labour are probably going to win the general election in the UK
>>>tomorrow, and nothing will really change. I won't be ecstatic over the
>>>result, but it'll do.
>>>
>>>
>>>(Sorry, I'm at the point where reading 160 opinions about the movie
>>>has me thoroughly bored of the argument now, so I thought I'd post
>>>something off-topic to start a different debate..)
>>>
>>>K.
>> nail this man to a Tree..........
>
> Why, he didn't say anything about how great it would be if people were
> nice to eachother for a change, did he?

He did not. He did not even mention little green pieces of paper or
the circulation of these, so noone should be unhappy.

/Rasmus

(who REALLY needs to listen to quandary phase in a moment)

--
-- [ Rasmus "Møffe" Bøg Hansen ] ---------------------------------------
Drink wet cement: Get Stoned.
----------------------------------------------[ moffe at zz9 dot dk ] --
Re: What I think.. [message #29431 ] Fr, 06 Mai 2005 02:42
Steve Marshall  
"Huggy Hare" <huggy [at] huggyhare.com> wrote

> Anyone who votes for Blair will walk over at least 100,000 bodies of
> inocent people, killed in defiance of international law and who were
> living in a country who never fired a shot at us (UK/USA).

Whilst I agree I think this notion of an illegal war is a bit potty. Would
we all be happy with a legal war ? 100,000 bodies still - but it's OK
because there was agreement ??? Seems like people get drawn in to ludicrous
bureaucratic nonsense with this government.

Steve M
Re: What I think.. [message #29468 ] Fr, 06 Mai 2005 18:34
John Coxon  
In the two thousand and fifth year of Bob, Steve Marshall's voice said the
following, in wonderful perfect quadrophonic sound with distortion levels so
low as to make a man weep:

> "Huggy Hare" <huggy [at] huggyhare.com> wrote
>
>>Anyone who votes for Blair will walk over at least 100,000 bodies of
>>inocent people, killed in defiance of international law and who were
>>living in a country who never fired a shot at us (UK/USA).
>
> Whilst I agree I think this notion of an illegal war is a bit potty. Would
> we all be happy with a legal war ? 100,000 bodies still - but it's OK
> because there was agreement ??? Seems like people get drawn in to ludicrous
> bureaucratic nonsense with this government.

A legal war would have been sanctioned for the UN and would therefore have
had a reason behind it other than oil - so people are happier with that idea
than with what actually happened.

--
John Coxon

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted then
used against you.

Email: john[dot]coxon[at]gmail[dot]com
Website: http://alphacentauri.8k.com
Missing footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemowiki.pl?ISFN
ZZ9 - the official HHGG appreciation society: http://www.zz9.org/
Re: What I think.. [message #29543 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 03:10
Steve Marshall  
"John Coxon" <rogue_nine_1988 [at] hotmail.com> wrote

> A legal war would have been sanctioned for the UN and would therefore have
> had a reason behind it other than oil - so people are happier with that
idea
> than with what actually happened.
>

Which is rather stupid.
If people think killing thousands of innocent people is wrong it shouldn't
matter whether or not they have a bit of paper to say it is OK.

In the previous war there was approval but (the previous) George Bush and
Richard Cheney were convicted of war crimes. People hardly noticed as they
thought the war legal so a bit of mindless slaughter is OK.
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/documents/iraqwrcm.htm


Steve M
Re: What I think.. [message #29555 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 06:15
Huggy Hare  
No no no, don't get me wrong!
Even if the war was sanctioned by the UN or if Saddam had actually
killed innocent Brits or Americans, there is no justification for
killing innocent people, Iraqi or otherwise. That's absolute madness.

Far as I'm concerned, we're all human no matter what part of this small
blue planet we're on.

I was only trying to make my point for not voting for Blair again which
makes no odds anyway as he's back in!
Re: What I think.. [message #29571 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 11:54
afda  
On Sat, 07 May 2005 07:22:39 GMT, pteybiesla [at] biegeponed.ceom (Foley U.
Matthews) wrote:

>On Stardate Wed, 4 May 2005 18:30:58 +0100, Kenny Hutchings
><mhfk51 [at] dsl.pipex.com> applied digits to the keyboard and routed the
>information from some kind of brain (presumably), thusly:
>
>>I think...
>>
>>That Labour are probably going to win the general election in the UK
>>tomorrow, and nothing will really change. I won't be ecstatic over the
>>result, but it'll do.
>
>How many of we Australians are envious of the Brits!!!

I'm a Brit. Why are you Australians envious of us?

Lloyd
--
"In fact, everything between 'herring' and 'marmalade'
appears to be missing" -- Svlad Cjelli
Re: What I think.. [message #29593 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 16:17
John Coxon  
In the two thousand and fifth year of Bob, Steve Marshall's voice said the
following, in wonderful perfect quadrophonic sound with distortion levels so
low as to make a man weep:

> "John Coxon" <rogue_nine_1988 [at] hotmail.com> wrote
>
>>A legal war would have been sanctioned for the UN and would therefore have
>>had a reason behind it other than oil - so people are happier with that
>>idea than with what actually happened.
>
> Which is rather stupid.
> If people think killing thousands of innocent people is wrong it shouldn't
> matter whether or not they have a bit of paper to say it is OK.

So you are saying that any war is wrong? What about the second world war -
Britain fighting the Germans on behalf of Poland's invasion - was that
wrong? Or the first world war - Britain fighting the Germans on behalf of
Belgium (not to mention France's role) - was that wrong?

Eventually you have to say, "look, is us going to war going to save more
lives in the long run than us not going to war?"

In this case, a UN sanction might have made more people think "well, yes, a
war will save lives in a weird way". As there was no UN sanction people
didn't think that.

War can be justified. This one was not, insofar as I can see.

--
John Coxon

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted then
used against you.

Email: john[dot]coxon[at]gmail[dot]com
Website: http://alphacentauri.8k.com
Missing footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemowiki.pl?ISFN
ZZ9 - the official HHGG appreciation society: http://www.zz9.org/
Re: What I think.. [message #29594 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 16:19
John Coxon  
In the two thousand and fifth year of Bob, Lloyd Gilbert's voice said the
following, in wonderful perfect quadrophonic sound with distortion levels so
low as to make a man weep:

> On Sat, 07 May 2005 07:22:39 GMT, pteybiesla [at] biegeponed.ceom (Foley U.
> Matthews) wrote:
>
>>On Stardate Wed, 4 May 2005 18:30:58 +0100, Kenny Hutchings
>><mhfk51 [at] dsl.pipex.com> applied digits to the keyboard and routed the
>>information from some kind of brain (presumably), thusly:
>>
>>>I think...
>>>
>>>That Labour are probably going to win the general election in the UK
>>>tomorrow, and nothing will really change. I won't be ecstatic over the
>>>result, but it'll do.
>>
>>How many of we Australians are envious of the Brits!!!
>
> I'm a Brit. Why are you Australians envious of us?

They keep falling off, and we don't. Obvious!

--
John Coxon

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted then
used against you.

Email: john[dot]coxon[at]gmail[dot]com
Website: http://alphacentauri.8k.com
Missing footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemowiki.pl?ISFN
ZZ9 - the official HHGG appreciation society: http://www.zz9.org/
Re: What I think.. [message #31999 ] Mo, 09 Mai 2005 23:55
Steve Marshall  
"John Coxon" <rogue_nine_1988 [at] hotmail.com> wrote

> So you are saying that any war is wrong?

I'm saying that if people object to thousands of innocent people getting
killed does it really matter if someone gave them permission to do so ?

> What about the second world war -
> Britain fighting the Germans on behalf of Poland's invasion - was that
> wrong? Or the first world war - Britain fighting the Germans on behalf of
> Belgium (not to mention France's role) - was that wrong?

What considerations you are using to judge if they are wrong ?


> Eventually you have to say, "look, is us going to war going to save more
> lives in the long run than us not going to war?"

If you think we send our troops in to any country so that we can save lives
you are sadly mistaken. What about all the conflicts around the globe that
you probably haven't heard of. Slaughter in Nigeria for instance. War in
Ethiopia keeps causing problems like famine because the indiginous people
won't help the poor. We try and help the poor when we can but we don't go
and and stop the fighting and killing that causes the problems.
We've stayed out of Isreal and let them kill each other for years - and it
was us that caused those problems. Allied forces stuck the Jews in the
middle of Palastine. We also put the family in power in Kuwait. There's more
than fighting to wars !

> In this case, a UN sanction might have made more people think "well, yes,
a
> war will save lives in a weird way". As there was no UN sanction people
> didn't think that.

That doesn't say much for the way people think.

> War can be justified. This one was not, insofar as I can see.

You can justify many things. Hitler justified genocide and many of his
followers agreed and helped him out. Whether it is justified or not does not
mean it is right.


Steve M
Re: What I think.. [message #32001 ] Di, 10 Mai 2005 00:15
Notifier Deamon  
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
Re: What I think.. [message #32566 ] Di, 10 Mai 2005 20:35
Jonathan Baddeley  
> (Sorry, I'm at the point where reading 160 opinions about the movie has
> me thoroughly bored of the argument now, so I thought I'd post something
> off-topic to start a different debate..)

"Let's lighten the mood and talk about abortion." - Bill Hicks

Jonny5
www.zz9.org
Re: What I think.. [message #32567 ] Di, 10 Mai 2005 20:37
Jonathan Baddeley  
> All politicians are
> puppets being held up by the same people behind the scenes.

The Illuminati? The Freemasons? The Gasboard? :-)

Jonny5
Re: What I think.. [message #32568 ] Di, 10 Mai 2005 20:48
Jonathan Baddeley  
> No no no, don't get me wrong!
> Even if the war was sanctioned by the UN or if Saddam had actually
> killed innocent Brits or Americans, there is no justification for
> killing innocent people, Iraqi or otherwise. That's absolute madness.

Um, didn't Saddam murder loads of people, have two wars and used chemical
weapons against Iran and his own Kurdish population?

Youre right, "there is no justification for killing innocent people". And
people and organisations that do so should be stopped. Sanctions were'nt
working and diplomacy was pointless. I wanted a UN resolution. I hated being
lied to about WMDs. And that the government whitewashed the legal advice.
But I won't feel bad that he's been stopped.

Jonny5
Re: What I think.. [message #32571 ] Di, 10 Mai 2005 20:57
Dave Adalian  
"Jonathan Baddeley" <jonathan.baddeley [at] tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:428101e2$1_4 [at] mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>
> Um, didn't Saddam murder loads of people, have two wars and used chemical
> weapons against Iran and his own Kurdish population?
>

Yes, he did. Decades ago. He and any threat he may have posed were
contained. We had no-fly zones in the north and south, an economic embargo,
the CIA estimated Iraq had 10 percent the military capability it had in 1992
and more than half Iraq's people were women and children (under age 15). We
beat the living crap out of a helpless, hapless bunch of humiliated and
emasculated people for purely economic reasons. Don't fool yourself into
believing anything else.


Chiggy.
Re: What I think.. [message #32573 ] Di, 10 Mai 2005 21:00
Dave Adalian  
"Jonathan Baddeley" <jonathan.baddeley [at] tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4280ff40_2 [at] mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>> All politicians are
>> puppets being held up by the same people behind the scenes.
>
> The Illuminati? The Freemasons? The Gasboard? :-)
>

No, a group of reactionary corporatists known as neo-conservatives or the
neocons. You can find out about them and their four-decade power grab in a
brilliant three-hour BBC documentary "The Power of Nightmares", which is
online here:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm

The BBC's official "The Power of Nightmares" page is here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm


Chiggy.
Re: What I think.. [message #32594 ] Di, 10 Mai 2005 23:11
euv_uffda  
"Jonathan Baddeley" <jonathan.baddeley [at] tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:428101e2$1_4 [at] mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
> > No no no, don't get me wrong!
> > Even if the war was sanctioned by the UN or if Saddam had actually
> > killed innocent Brits or Americans, there is no justification for
> > killing innocent people, Iraqi or otherwise. That's absolute madness.
>
> Um, didn't Saddam murder loads of people, have two wars and used chemical
> weapons against Iran and his own Kurdish population?
>
> Youre right, "there is no justification for killing innocent people". And
> people and organisations that do so should be stopped. Sanctions were'nt
> working and diplomacy was pointless. I wanted a UN resolution. I hated
being
> lied to about WMDs. And that the government whitewashed the legal advice.
> But I won't feel bad that he's been stopped.

The way I see it is as follows:
Saddam was evil he should have been stopped.
There are easily another dozen world leaders who are evil and should be
stopped.
Saddam had it coming.
There are easily another dozen world leaders who have it coming.

The question is:
Do you really need to start wars with protracted occupations to do it? Or
is there another way?
Re: What I think.. [message #32596 ] Di, 10 Mai 2005 23:47
Steve Marshall  
"Kenny Hutchings" <mhfk51 [at] dsl.pipex.com> wrote

>
> Does that count as a invocation of Godwin's Law? If so, you lose, Stevo.

Apparently not.


Steve M
Re: What I think.. [message #32606 ] Mi, 11 Mai 2005 04:04
Neil Gerace  
"Dave Adalian" <dpalta [at] comcast.net> wrote in message
news:PJudnelQtdZJmRzfRVn-oQ [at] comcast.com...
> "Jonathan Baddeley" <jonathan.baddeley [at] tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4280ff40_2 [at] mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>>> All politicians are
>>> puppets being held up by the same people behind the scenes.
>>
>> The Illuminati? The Freemasons? The Gasboard? :-)
>>
>
> No, a group of reactionary corporatists known as neo-conservatives or the
> neocons. You can find out about them and their four-decade power grab in
> a brilliant three-hour BBC documentary "The Power of Nightmares", which is
> online here:

> The BBC's official "The Power of Nightmares" page is here:

Alexei Sayle: "Everyone says the BBC is full of Communists. Well I don't
think that's true at all. Morning, comrade."
Re: What I think.. [message #33319 ] Do, 12 Mai 2005 08:37
John Coxon  
On 09/05/2005 22:55, five wild Event Maelstroms swirled in vicious storms of
unreason and Steve Marshall spewed up:

> "John Coxon" <rogue_nine_1988 [at] hotmail.com> wrote
>
>>So you are saying that any war is wrong?
>
> I'm saying that if people object to thousands of innocent people getting
> killed does it really matter if someone gave them permission to do so ?

If it is saving tens of thousands of other innocent people then it is the
Greater Good. (Iraq was not, but you seem to be ignoring my belief on that
subject.)

>>What about the second world war -
>>Britain fighting the Germans on behalf of Poland's invasion - was that
>>wrong? Or the first world war - Britain fighting the Germans on behalf of
>>Belgium (not to mention France's role) - was that wrong?
>
> What considerations you are using to judge if they are wrong ?

Who are wrong? Explain your statements.

>>Eventually you have to say, "look, is us going to war going to save more
>>lives in the long run than us not going to war?"
>
> If you think we send our troops in to any country so that we can save lives
> you are sadly mistaken. What about all the conflicts around the globe that
> you probably haven't heard of. Slaughter in Nigeria for instance. War in
> Ethiopia keeps causing problems like famine because the indiginous people
> won't help the poor. We try and help the poor when we can but we don't go
> and and stop the fighting and killing that causes the problems.
> We've stayed out of Isreal and let them kill each other for years - and it
> was us that caused those problems. Allied forces stuck the Jews in the
> middle of Palastine. We also put the family in power in Kuwait. There's more
> than fighting to wars !

AND I SAID THE IRAQ WAR WAS WRONG. I'm just saying that there are other
wars which were not wrong, because they saved lives. I didn't say anything
about the paragraph you just typed out, therefore it is not all that
relevant to the discussion.

>>In this case, a UN sanction might have made more people think "well, yes,
>>a war will save lives in a weird way". As there was no UN sanction
>>people didn't think that.
>
> That doesn't say much for the way people think.

What, so saying that taking lives can save lives is rubbish? You are quite
mistaken - in the case of WWII, for example, there was no choice. There are
wars where democracy had been tried and had failed - therefore we went to
war. Those wars are right.

>>War can be justified. This one was not, insofar as I can see.
>
> You can justify many things. Hitler justified genocide and many of his
> followers agreed and helped him out. Whether it is justified or not does not
> mean it is right.

....so you would rather we had not invaded Germany in WWII to stop Hitler?
Is that what you are saying? Are you saying that all war is wrong? Because
that's what the UN is there for (or one of the reasons) making sure that the
wars that do happen are not unjustified/wrong but need to happen and making
sure that all avenues are taken before war is decided upon.

In essence, I think that the viewpoint saying "war is wrong" is far too
black and white, and you need to take into account the fact that sometimes
it's the only option to save lives, for example, WWII. This does not mean
that I think that all war is justified - which you seem to think I think and
I do not know how.

Try reading what I'm typing.

--
John Coxon

A day for firm decisions!!! Or is it?

Email: john[dot]coxon[at]gmail[dot]com
Website: http://alphacentauri.8k.com
Missing footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemowiki.pl?ISFN
ZZ9 - the official HHGG appreciation society: http://www.zz9.org/
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