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Science Fiction » alt.startrek » Heroism and Homosexuality in Battlestar Galactica
| Heroism and Homosexuality in Battlestar Galactica [message #28361] |
Sa, 07 Mai 2005 01:00 |
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"Bozo the Evil Klown" <Evilklowwn [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1113186388.095171.98380 [at] l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> John Shocked wrote:
>> "Bozo the Evil Klown" <Evilklowwn [at] aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1113168694.292137.280520 [at] l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> > John Shocked wrote:
>> >> <firelock_ny [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:1113116320.818994.281910 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> >> > John Shocked wrote:
>> >> >> What is clear though is that many people watching this series
>> >> >> believe that Baltar is a good enough person that they would not
>> >> >> mind him taking control of the government at this point.
>> >> > I think you'd have to go a long way to find any viewer
>> >> > who would think that Baltar is a "good person". It
>> > It's not any "goodness" on Baltar's part; he's the Vice President
>> > now, and with the President in the Brig the line of succession makes
>> > the Vice-President the leader of the government. The law
>> >***DOESN'T*** state that a good, just and moral person take over
>> > from the President, the law states that the Vice-President takes
>> > over.
>> The law is not in question in this thread: the issue is the intent
>> of the writers of this series and their Hollywood Homosexual
>> masters who create this make believe world we are watching.
>> Would you agree that what we know that Baltar has done in this
>> series is much worse than anything that Zerak has done ?
>> >> > might make good television if this traitorous scoundrel
>> >> > took over the Fleet's government, but only in the sense
>> >> > of watching a disaster happen so the heroes of the
>> >> > story have something to fix.
>> >> > Walt Smith
>> > It might even be interesting if the added responsibility inspires
>> > Baltar to find the inner strength he hasn't shown yet, maybe make
>> >at least an attempt to redeem himself?
>> How can you redeem a mega mass murderer ?
> With extreme difficulty. With Baltar, it would be impressive if he
> even summoned up enough strength and courage to even *try*.
The only legit script path for Baltar's character is to install
himself as the Cylon God.
He then would become the "Great Satan" of this series as he
should be and then the Galactica will marshal its forced
to fight against him.
>> Especially a guy who murdered these people for purely selfish
>> reasons, unlike Zerak who had humanitarian underpinnings for his
>> "blowing up a government building".
> Zerak talks like he had these high humanitarian ideals, but what we've
> *seen him do* show him to be an opportunistic manipulator. No doubt
> he would claim "humanitarian ideals" for his plan to be elected
> Vice-President and then assassinate Roslin.
>> By the way, I do not recall seeing a body count for Zerak's action:
>> have the writers ever stated that anyone was killed in that bombing ?
> It seems odd that if his bombing was bloodless that no one ever
> mentioned that in his defense.
I do not think anyone wants to defend him but I just do not remember a
bodycount on that bombing being presented. Anyone watching this series has
been exposed to the President and others commiserating about the 1300 lives
on the Olympic Carrier over and over. There may have been a Zerak bodycount
but I do not recall one presented.
>> >> Which BSG heroes ? Starbuck has already been bedded by Baltar
>> > Starbuck is also one of their top pilots; she devised the strategy that
>> > let them raid the Cylon fuel depot. She also found out Zarek's man
>> > had smuggled a gun into the political meeting just before the season
>> > finale.
>> Starbuck's character has been irretrievably besmirched by this
>> bedding by Baltar. This represents abnormal behavior by the writers,
> A man and a woman having sex is "abnormal???"
In this context, absolutely. Writers seldom defile their characters,
especially female characters who are supposed to be heroes, with casual sex
with evil characters in the show.
>> to damage the character of what should be one of the stars of the
>> series. Just imagine, if in Titanic a movie everyone saw, Kate Winslet's
>> character had casual sex with the Billy Zane character (I think I am
>> remembering those characters correctly).
>> It would have seriously damaged the movie and the movie would not
>> have sold anywhere near as well at the box office.
> Well, I can't comment on that- I'm the one person in America who never
> saw "Titanic." Then again, I'm also the one person who never sees the
> resemblance between James Callis and Alexander Siddig that everyone
> else sees.
I never heard that but now that I think about it there is some, since there
is
a resemblance and they are both Brits, although Siddig is of Saudi Arabian
ancestry, I believe.
>> >> and Apollo has a huge Sodomy question mark next to his name.
>> > It can't be that huge if most viewers aren't seeing it.
>> Saturday Night Live has already been parodying the presence
>> of Homosexual symbolisms in this BSG series with their Gays In Space
>> series of skits in their 30x12 and 30x15 2005 episodes so far.
>> Saturday Night Live has always had a shrewd eye for detection of
>> deceitful behavior by politicians and other institutions and perform
>> parodies to blow it up bigger so the people, who often act like mindless
>> sheep, can wake up,
> It used to, yes. SNL hasn't been funny for decades.
I did not say it was still consistently funny. But they have retained the
skill to spot deceitful behavior and the courage to parody it.
> And while the SNL parody of "Star Trek" was hysterical, in the original
> series the Enterprise was *never* pursued by a car from NBC. IMO what
> is shown on "Galactica" is more relevant to the "Galactica" series than
> what is shown on any other show.
Which SNL parody of Star Trek are you referring to ? Which episode ?
Not sure I understand this point.
>> knife in and see what is happening to them. That is, the producers
>> of this BSG series are not being honest and forthright about Apollo's
>> homosexuality.
> They've certainly managed to keep it hidden from virtually everyone.
Wrong, I can see it and so can Saturday Night Live. And SNL likely has
scores of people who study newspapers and culture for them.
>> They are trying to hint at it and have the viewers accept it before
>> they actually put Apollo and Zerak in bed together.
>> >> William Adama has arrested the President Roslin on what are
>> >> obviously superficial grounds (as I mentioned in another thread,
>> >> she did not do anything behind his back and told Starbuck to
>> >> talk about the search for Earth issue with Adama.
>> > She suborned Starbuck behind his back. Jeopardizing a rescue
>> > mission
>> It was never an either/or decision. I doubt that the script
>> presented
>> Roslin having knowledge that the Cylon ship was needed for something
>> else.
>> Again, I am not interested in what is in your mind about this series,
>> I am interested in what the script actually said. Your mind can be
>> manipulated
> Naw... *too* easy.
You are confident that your mind is impervious to the marketeers from
Hollywood telling you that, amongst other things, 'Sodomy's ok'.
>> by atmospherics and symbolisms. All marketers, not just
>> Hollywood Homosexuals, count on this phenomenon. These movie studios
>> are billion dollar operations and mistakes are not supposed to
>> occur in the scripts.
> Mistakes are not *supposed* to occur, but have you seen the recent
> "Star Trek" by-products? Some "Voyager" scripts were nothing but
> mistakes, all neatly printed and bound.
I did not watch much of the Star Trek series after The Next Generation,
until Earth: Final Conflict came along.
Maybe bad scripts is why. Certainly Star Trek Deep Space 9 had some
homosexual overtones in it that were repulsive such as the Captain calling
actress Terry Farrell "Old Man" because her character Jadzia Dax contained a
symbiant who was a man.
This kind of scummy genderbending started to dominate the series and drove
guys like me away from the series.
The one thing I know about Enterprise is that the Captain is the same guy
who played transvestite roles in Quantum Leap.
I have never watched any of both of these series.
>> > to go back and retrieve a historical trinket is not sound strategy,
>> > and Adama had the responsibility to prevent any further interference
>> > in military matters. Roslin knew the Raider was a unique military
>> > asset when she asked Starbuck to take it on her own personal quest.
>> > Now the question of who will try Roslin should add some gasoline to
>> > the fire next season. <G>
>> It is quite common for a politician in Washington today to plead
>> their case directly to the President and, if that does not work, find
>> someone close to the President and plead it to them and ask them
>> to go and persuade the President that this is the right course.
>> Lobbyists do this every day. This is what lobbyists call "access".
>> What is also clear here is that toward the end of this meeting
>> between President Roslin and Starbuck, Roslin told her to discuss
>> this search for Earth (which the Arrow represented) with Adama.
>> Thus, how could this possibly be considered "behind his back".
> She didn't ask Starbuck to discuss taking the Raider to Caprica. She
> told Starbuck that Adama lied about knowing where Earth was, to give
> the people hope. When Starbuck didn't believe her CO had lied, Roslin
> told Starbuck to ask Adama about *that*.
How could anyone ever imagine that Starbuck would not have discussed the
whole idea of going to Kobol with Adama ? Did President Roslin ever tell
her to take off with the Cylon FTL ship without his knowledge ?
Again, I have no investment in these characters, and thus it is ridiculous
to defend them; they are just TV characters coming out of the mind of a well
paid BSG writer. If you could tell me where Pres. Roslin whispers in a
darkened room (remember this is a TV show and the onus is on the
writers/producers make absolutely clear their intent) that Starbuck should
Not discuss this at all with Adama and to steal the Cylon FTL ship, then
what you are saying might be significant. The Pres did not even hint at the
action Starbuck took. Pres. Roslin told Starbuck to talk to Adama about the
matter: case closed.
I am open to the possibility that this section of the script was simply
poorly written, but the implication of what has happened here is that Adama
arrested the Pres on superficial and spurious grounds and it has made a
mockery of the final episode of the show.
>> >> Starbuck chose independently not to do that) and is thus tagged
>> >> as a despot. Tigh is a drunk.The Chief Engineer is in bed with a
>> >> Cylon woman in every closet in the Galactica.
>> > The Chief doesn't know Sharon is a Cylon- *and* he cut off their
>> > relationship after one of his men was punished for covering for one
>> > of their liasons.
>> The Chief cut off the relationship because he was ordered to do so by
>> a superior, Tigh, if I recall correctly.
> No, Tigh ordered them to stop but he kept meeting with Boomer in
> secret. When they were investigating the Cylon suicide bomber one of
> the engineers was caught trying to cover for the Chief. The Chief felt
> guilty about his man taking the fall for him, and that was when he told
> Boomer it was over.
That is how I recall the sequence. He was ordered by a superior to stop the
relationship: he did not stop the relationship out of any personal
morality, even when implications were staring him in the face that she was a
Cylon.
>> >> My guess though is that the Hollywood Homosexuals
>> >> behind Battlestar Galactica will tap Apollo to be the 'hero'
>> >> and are going to ally him with Zerak as the 'heroes' who are
>> >> in love and who they will endeavor to put in bed together.
>> > Apollo as the hero I can see, but I seriously doubt they'll try to
>> > make Zerak a "hero." (Whether Zerak tried to manipulate the
>> > situation to paint himself as a "hero" is an entirely seperate matter)
>> Altruistic intentions in a character are a clear indicator of
>> intended heroism in that character by the writers.
> Altruistic claims and actual altruism are two very different things.
Apollo has declared Zerak to be an altruist by his statements about his
books and so on. Apollo has only claimed that he opposed the violence that
Zerak later on began to use. This is the nucleus I believe that the
writers are steering toward for this team, I believe this Hollywood
Homosexual team, to be the 'heroes' of the show, battling ultimately against
Baltar and the Cylons.
>> That is, people who risk their own safety unnecessarily for the good
>> of others.
>> The writers are presenting those motives in 2 characters:
>> 1) Apollo who most recently put his own safety on the line in a
>> ridiculous scene in which he points the gun at Tigh long after the
>> moment he should have expressed his opposition directly to Adama.
>> 2) Zerak who put his liberty in danger unnecessarily by blowing up a
>> government building in which his documented writings make clear his
>> intentions were altruistic.
> Did you expect him to write a book about how he became a terrorist to
> further his own political ambitions? Again, Zerak makes a lot of mouth
> noises about what a good and noble guy he is, but what we've seen him
> do doesn't match up with his words.
What we know of his books, they are not terroristic but speak of the good of
mankind though he was not poor or disenfranchised himself.
>> i.e. neither of these 2 characters was "just doing their job" in
>> these particular actions.
>> >> Based on the script which has been exposed to the viewers in the
>> >> series, which person do you believe the viewers would have a low
>> >> opinion of: Baltar or Zerak ?
>> > Zerak is a politician in the slimiest sense of the word. While he
>> Zerak has clearly risked his own safety, not for personal gain, but
>> in documented writing, for the good of others.
>> What you claim is simply not what the script says.
> I know that Zerak's book makes Zerak out to be a heroic figure. His
> on-screen actions make him out to be just the opposite.
[[ The BSG writers portray Zerak as someone who has altruistic goals
and is willing to put his own life in danger to further those goals,
for a common good. That makes him a hero and the writers want to
put him together with Apollo to create the homosexual righteous heroic
team to defeat the Cylons. ]]
>> > seriously lacks the strength of any convictions Baltar sometimes
>> > shows flashes of a vestigial conscience. Baltar was duped into aiding
>> > the destruction of the Colonies, where Zerak knew full well what he was
>> > doing when he blew up the government building.
>> Again, I do not recall any presentation by the writers if anyone was
>> killed in the Zerak bombing, but what is clear is that Baltar's
>> involvement in 2 separate acts of mass murder for purely selfish reasons
>> should persuade anyone that he is an extremely evil character in the
>> series.
>> >From what I've seen, Baltar is more trustworthy than Zerak, in the
>> > same sense of Titan being warmer than Pluto.
>> What is so bad about Zerak, in your opinion, which makes him worse
>> than Baltar ?
> Baltar was *duped* into helping with the destruction of the Colonies.
> He never set out to commit genocide, and didn't know he was involved
> until after the attack had started. Zerak *knew* he was committing an
> act of terrorism, no matter how noble he spins it in his book.
If Baltar did not know what he was doing in compromising the space defenses
of the Colonies, then why, in the "33" episode, did he know immediately
that Dr. Amarak knew he was a traitor ? "6" speaks to him and states that
"he was onto us" and represents an immediate danger and must be muted.
Politics
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