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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » "The World of Men"
"The World of Men" [message #27854] Mi, 04 Mai 2005 01:20
Samsonknight  
Hi,

I have a question about middle earth, and in particular about "the world of
men".

I am aware that Tolkien is not a racist, but what happened to the variation
of different races within the "world of men" in Lord of the Rings? (I have
not read the book for reasons stated in a prior thread). Every man depicted
in the movie was white, yet in the real world, "The world of men" has a
variation of different races.

Thank you.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #27856 ] Mi, 04 Mai 2005 03:54
Graham Lockwood  
On Tue, 3 May 2005 18:20:43 -0500, Samsonknight wrote
(in article <d5910b$o15$1 [at] nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>):
> Hi,
>
> I have a question about middle earth, and in particular about "the world of
> men".
>
> I am aware that Tolkien is not a racist, but what happened to the variation
> of different races within the "world of men" in Lord of the Rings? (I have
> not read the book for reasons stated in a prior thread).

With the destruction of the Three Rings, the Elves could no longer stave off
Time and they all either sailed West or slowly faded away until they became
almost wraithlike (although not necessarily evil like the Nazgul).

"When nine thousand years old YOU reach, look as substantial you will not.
Hmm?"

The Dwarves slowly dwindled in numbers. Partly because their ancient halls
were mostly destroyed. Also, they reproduce extremely slowly. They retreated
underground.

The Hobbits were displaced by the Big Folk. That's what you get for being
(mostly) pacifists. They also supposedly got even SMALLER as time went on.

Whatever was left of the non-human races that survived down through the ages
are (supposedly) responsible for the various tales and legends that modern
(or not-as-ancient as LotR) humans have for such beings.

>Every man depicted
> in the movie was white, yet in the real world, "The world of men" has a
> variation of different races.

Although the geography of Tolkien's maps bears little resemblance to modern
maps, his stories (supposedly) happened in the real world, just a
reeeeeaaaallly long time ago. And the region of the world that his stories
deal with happens to be more or less contiguous with Europe. So it shouldn't
be too terribly surprising to find only Europeans.



---
Graham
Re: "The World of Men" [message #27859 ] Mi, 04 Mai 2005 05:31
the softrat  
On Tue, 3 May 2005 23:20:43 +0000 (UTC), "Samsonknight"
<samsonknight2k [at] btinternet.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I have a question about middle earth, and in particular about "the world of
>men".
>
>I am aware that Tolkien is not a racist, but what happened to the variation
>of different races within the "world of men" in Lord of the Rings? (I have
>not read the book for reasons stated in a prior thread). Every man depicted
>in the movie was white, yet in the real world, "The world of men" has a
>variation of different races.
>
>Thank you.
>
READ THE BOOK!

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously
overlooked something. -- Steven Wright
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30714 ] Mi, 04 Mai 2005 18:22
sbjensen  
Quoth "Samsonknight" <samsonknight2k [at] btinternet.com> in article
<d5910b$o15$1 [at] nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>:
> I have a question about middle earth, and in particular about "the
> world of men".

I honestly don't recall if that phrase was ever used in the books. :)
(Tolkien does use it in one letter that he wrote _about_ the books,
but not really in the same sense.) Not that its lack would invalidate
your question, of course! I just thought it was interesting.

> I am aware that Tolkien is not a racist, but what happened to the
> variation of different races within the "world of men" in Lord of
> the Rings? Every man depicted in the movie was white, yet in the
> real world, "The world of men" has a variation of different races.

There are basically two answers to your question. The first, as I
think others have mentioned, is that Tolkien's story was set in an
imaginary pre-history of Europe. If you could wander around Europe
6,000 years ago, I suspect that you'd be hard pressed to find many
non-whites.

The second, of course, is that the movies are not the books. There
are several groups of Men in the books who Tolkien describes as
"swarthy", including the men of Bree, people from certain areas of
Gondor, and the Southrons who were ambushed by Faramir. Of course,
"swarthy" can cover a lot of ground, and he may have meant different
levels of dark skin in each of those cases, but at least that
demonstrates that these weren't all lily-white viking people. :)

I guess there's a third answer, too: I thought that the Haradrim (the
guys with the elephants) in the movies looked at least somewhat
different (racially speaking) than the people in Gondor. So while the
Fellowship wasn't a perfect cross-section of global populations, there
was at least some evidence that the folks from far away looked
different than the folks from nearby. :)

Steuard Jensen
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30716 ] Mi, 04 Mai 2005 19:17
Alan  
Samsonknight writes:

(I have not read the book for reasons stated in a prior thread).

I have not seen your previous thread. Can you tell us why it is you
have'nt read the books?

Alan
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30717 ] Mi, 04 Mai 2005 19:29
jojo  
"Alan" <alanandlouise [at] rochford78.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1115227026.798836.38630 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Samsonknight writes:
>
> (I have not read the book for reasons stated in a prior thread).
>
> I have not seen your previous thread. Can you tell us why it is you
> have'nt read the books?
>
> Alan
>
"but I just haven't found the time to read the books due to other
commitments."
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30723 ] Mi, 04 Mai 2005 20:18
Samsonknight  
"jojo" <cgv_2000*yourhat* [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TD7ee.775$1o3.342 [at] newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Alan" <alanandlouise [at] rochford78.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1115227026.798836.38630 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> Samsonknight writes:
>>
>> (I have not read the book for reasons stated in a prior thread).
>>
>> I have not seen your previous thread. Can you tell us why it is you
>> have'nt read the books?
>>
>> Alan
>>
> "but I just haven't found the time to read the books due to other
> commitments."
>

...."Commitments" being examinations, this month and the next.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30731 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 00:07
jojo  
> > "but I just haven't found the time to read the books due to other
> > commitments."
> >
>
> ..."Commitments" being examinations, this month and the next.
>
>

Not knocking you....Just a warning though, your going to have some fine
summer reading!
;-)
I used to be one of those "don't put it down till you finish it readers" but
since having a child,
my reading time is spare, so I understand trying to find time to read.

jojo
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30732 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 01:37
Apteryx  
"Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:rF6ee.36$45.4387 [at] news.uchicago.edu...
> Quoth "Samsonknight" <samsonknight2k [at] btinternet.com> in article
> <d5910b$o15$1 [at] nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>:
>> I have a question about middle earth, and in particular about "the
>> world of men".
>
> I honestly don't recall if that phrase was ever used in the books. :)
> (Tolkien does use it in one letter that he wrote _about_ the books,
> but not really in the same sense.) Not that its lack would invalidate
> your question, of course! I just thought it was interesting.

It is used at least once, in the Council of Elrond chapter, by Gandalf
quoting Saruman's attempt to suborn him: "The time of the Elves is over, but
our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule."

--
Apteryx
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30733 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 02:36
Samsonknight  
"jojo" <cgv_2000*yourhat* [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3Jbee.809$1o3.10 [at] newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
>> > "but I just haven't found the time to read the books due to other
>> > commitments."
>> >
>>
>> ..."Commitments" being examinations, this month and the next.
>>
>>
>
> Not knocking you....Just a warning though, your going to have some fine
> summer reading!
> ;-)
> I used to be one of those "don't put it down till you finish it readers"
> but
> since having a child,
> my reading time is spare, so I understand trying to find time to read.
>
> jojo
>

I am not an avid reader, but since seeing the film(s), it has got me so
intrigued. I cannot wait until the summer. If the movie is great, then I
cannot begin to comprehend how great the books will be.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30736 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 03:09
Samsonknight  
"Apteryx" <apteryx [at] extra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:%0dee.3782$Od6.530280 [at] news.xtra.co.nz...
> "Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
> news:rF6ee.36$45.4387 [at] news.uchicago.edu...
>> Quoth "Samsonknight" <samsonknight2k [at] btinternet.com> in article
>> <d5910b$o15$1 [at] nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>:
>>> I have a question about middle earth, and in particular about "the
>>> world of men".
>>
>> I honestly don't recall if that phrase was ever used in the books. :)
>> (Tolkien does use it in one letter that he wrote _about_ the books,
>> but not really in the same sense.) Not that its lack would invalidate
>> your question, of course! I just thought it was interesting.
>
> It is used at least once, in the Council of Elrond chapter, by Gandalf
> quoting Saruman's attempt to suborn him: "The time of the Elves is over,
> but our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule."
>
> --
> Apteryx
>

Suraman states in TTT that "there will be no dawn for men", but how can this
statement be true when the battle is only happening in "Europe". I would
have thought he being a White Wizard will know of races outside of "Europe",
so is it just me or is that statement far fetched?

I don't know why, but from watching the ROTK and TTT, I get this impression
that the wizards, & elves don't acknowledge any other type of human race
except the ones in Europe. (Where the closest thing to a black person are
"swarthy" people, who are probably just Mediterranean white people). Aragorn
reinforces this with his statement "It is an army bred for a single purpose,
to destroy the world of men" - I know he is a human, but being raised in
Rivendale (where the Elves are very knowledgeable - so they at least should
know) and being a bit of a ranger, surely he has ventured outside of middle
earth.

IF indeed the Elves do know about other races, then I think the Elves should
have got them involved (by sending Elves outside of Middle-earth, as
messengers), as this is in a theory a world war. If Sauron gets the Ring,
then he will be unstoppable, hence men of all races should fight against the
evil brewing in the East. Besides, the armies of Gondor, and Rohan along
with other armies of middle earth were short of troops. So it only makes
sense to call for reinforcements from far fetched lands.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30738 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 04:07
the softrat  
On 4 May 2005 10:17:06 -0700, "Alan"
<alanandlouise [at] rochford78.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>Samsonknight writes:
>
> (I have not read the book for reasons stated in a prior thread).
>
>I have not seen your previous thread. Can you tell us why it is you
>have'nt read the books?
>
His lips get too tired.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your own.
You may both be wrong." Dandemis
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30739 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 07:06
jgballar-keinspam  
In article <d5brnr$g5$1 [at] nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
"Samsonknight" <samsonknight2k [at] btinternet.com> wrote:

> "Apteryx" <apteryx [at] extra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:%0dee.3782$Od6.530280 [at] news.xtra.co.nz...
> > "Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
> > news:rF6ee.36$45.4387 [at] news.uchicago.edu...
> >> Quoth "Samsonknight" <samsonknight2k [at] btinternet.com> in article
> >> <d5910b$o15$1 [at] nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>:
> >>> I have a question about middle earth, and in particular about "the
> >>> world of men".
> >>
> >> I honestly don't recall if that phrase was ever used in the books. :)
> >> (Tolkien does use it in one letter that he wrote _about_ the books,
> >> but not really in the same sense.) Not that its lack would invalidate
> >> your question, of course! I just thought it was interesting.
> >
> > It is used at least once, in the Council of Elrond chapter, by Gandalf
> > quoting Saruman's attempt to suborn him: "The time of the Elves is over,
> > but our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule."
> >
> > --
> > Apteryx
> >
>
> Suraman states in TTT that "there will be no dawn for men", but how can this
> statement be true when the battle is only happening in "Europe". I would
> have thought he being a White Wizard will know of races outside of "Europe",
> so is it just me or is that statement far fetched?
>
> I don't know why, but from watching the ROTK and TTT, I get this impression
> that the wizards, & elves don't acknowledge any other type of human race
> except the ones in Europe. (Where the closest thing to a black person are
> "swarthy" people, who are probably just Mediterranean white people). Aragorn
> reinforces this with his statement "It is an army bred for a single purpose,
> to destroy the world of men" - I know he is a human, but being raised in
> Rivendale (where the Elves are very knowledgeable - so they at least should
> know) and being a bit of a ranger, surely he has ventured outside of middle
> earth.
>
> IF indeed the Elves do know about other races, then I think the Elves should
> have got them involved (by sending Elves outside of Middle-earth, as
> messengers), as this is in a theory a world war. If Sauron gets the Ring,
> then he will be unstoppable, hence men of all races should fight against the
> evil brewing in the East. Besides, the armies of Gondor, and Rohan along
> with other armies of middle earth were short of troops. So it only makes
> sense to call for reinforcements from far fetched lands.

The men of other parts of Middle Earth had not had much contact with the
Noldor and other Eldar, and had come under the dominion of Morgoth in
the elder days. The Edain escaped into Belariand and met the exiled
Noldor and the Sindarin elves, learned of the Valar, etc., and were
basically enlightened.

IIRC, by the time of the Third Age, the men to the East had again come
under the domination of Sauron and held him up as a god-king. But I
could be thinking of the Second Age.

Unlike the movies, in the book the "bad" men are just as much of a
problem as the orcs. In short, you don't call for enforcements from
far-fetched lands when those lands are under Sauron's control and are
full of the very people who are attacking you.

Jon

Jon
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30741 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 08:49
Kevin  
J.G. Ballard <jgballar-keinspam [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <d5brnr$g5$1 [at] nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
> "Samsonknight" <samsonknight2k [at] btinternet.com> wrote:

>> Suraman states in TTT that "there will be no dawn for men", but how can this
>> statement be true when the battle is only happening in "Europe". I would
>> have thought he being a White Wizard will know of races outside of "Europe",
>> so is it just me or is that statement far fetched?

The basic idea is that Sauron had _already_ succeeded in conquering most
of the regions outside "Europe."

>> I don't know why, but from watching the ROTK and TTT, I get this impression
>> that the wizards, & elves don't acknowledge any other type of human race
>> except the ones in Europe. (Where the closest thing to a black person are
>> "swarthy" people, who are probably just Mediterranean white people). Aragorn
>> reinforces this with his statement "It is an army bred for a single purpose,
>> to destroy the world of men" - I know he is a human, but being raised in
>> Rivendale (where the Elves are very knowledgeable - so they at least should
>> know) and being a bit of a ranger, surely he has ventured outside of middle
>> earth.

My understanding is that "Near Harad" is roughly analogous to North Africa
and the Middle East, while "Far Harad" is roughly analogous to sub-Saharan Africa.
The book does mention soldiers from Far Harad being present at the siege of Minas
Tirith, and if you look very closely you can see at least one soldier there who
looks definitely African.
Incidentally, "Middle-earth" is a term that is somewhat broader than you seem
to take it---even Far Harad and other remote regions are all part of Middle-earth.
Gondor, Rohan, the Shire, etc. are all in the north-west of Middle-earth, which is
the roughly European region. The elves and wizards certainly knew about the other
regions in Middle-earth, but they don't seem to have known _much_. Aragorn probably
knew as much as anyone else, since he had traveled there. The quote from Aragorn
that you mention above wouldn't ring quite true in the book to me, for that reason.

>> IF indeed the Elves do know about other races, then I think the Elves should
>> have got them involved (by sending Elves outside of Middle-earth, as
>> messengers), as this is in a theory a world war. If Sauron gets the Ring,
>> then he will be unstoppable, hence men of all races should fight against the
>> evil brewing in the East. Besides, the armies of Gondor, and Rohan along
>> with other armies of middle earth were short of troops. So it only makes
>> sense to call for reinforcements from far fetched lands.

By the time of LOTR, the Elves had largely withdrawn from contact with Men
in general. They no longer were even in regular contact with Gondor, much less
with Men inhabiting more distant places.
Perhaps Gondor itself could have sought allies there; but that would have
been a very difficult task, so I can understand why not much of an attempt was made.
The Men of Gondor probably weren't even familiar with the basic geography of the
lands far to the east and south; to get to any potential allies, they would have
had to cross lands definitely controlled by Sauron; there would have been linguistic
and cultural barriers; and it wouldn't have been past Sauron to set up phony "allies"
who would have betrayed them at a key moment.

> IIRC, by the time of the Third Age, the men to the East had again come
> under the domination of Sauron and held him up as a god-king. But I
> could be thinking of the Second Age.

> Unlike the movies, in the book the "bad" men are just as much of a
> problem as the orcs. In short, you don't call for enforcements from
> far-fetched lands when those lands are under Sauron's control and are
> full of the very people who are attacking you.

It is pretty clear that at the time of LOTR, Sauron had already succeeded
in gaining control of vast areas in the east and south of Middle-Earth, outside
the "European" region. Just how complete was that control? It's hard to say.
I'm guessing that there did continue to be active resistance to him in those
areas. My own speculation is that the key events far off in the east and south
occurred decades and centuries before LOTR. There must have been some Men there
who resisted Sauron's return, and who were largely defeated. Two wizards were
off in the far east, and Tolkien mentioned that they evidently failed. Perhaps
it is a fair criticism that Gondor was short-sighted by not seeking allies in
those regions _then_, before the crisis came. But short-sightedness of that sort
is all too plausible.


Kevin
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30744 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 19:24
Morgil  
Samsonknight wrote:

> Suraman states in TTT that "there will be no dawn for men", but how can this
> statement be true when the battle is only happening in "Europe". I would
> have thought he being a White Wizard will know of races outside of "Europe",
> so is it just me or is that statement far fetched?

It is just a movie idiocy which has nothing to do with the book.
It was not supposed to make any sense in the movie either - just
to sound cool and sinister.

Morgil
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30747 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 19:40
Samsonknight  
"Morgil" <morestelx [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d5dkru$5ge$1 [at] nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
> Samsonknight wrote:
>
>> Suraman states in TTT that "there will be no dawn for men", but how can
>> this statement be true when the battle is only happening in "Europe". I
>> would have thought he being a White Wizard will know of races outside of
>> "Europe", so is it just me or is that statement far fetched?
>
> It is just a movie idiocy which has nothing to do with the book.
> It was not supposed to make any sense in the movie either - just
> to sound cool and sinister.
>
> Morgil

Well how am I supposed to know? I have not read the book, so as the movie is
based on teh book , it is only logical for me to think that line was taken
from the book.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30750 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 20:48
Morgil  
Samsonknight wrote:
> "Morgil" <morestelx [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:d5dkru$5ge$1 [at] nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...

>>It is just a movie idiocy which has nothing to do with the book.
>>It was not supposed to make any sense in the movie either - just
>>to sound cool and sinister.
>>
>>Morgil
>
>
> Well how am I supposed to know? I have not read the book, so as the movie is
> based on teh book , it is only logical for me to think that line was taken
> from the book.

That's okay really. But from now on always assume the opposite.
And even if you find some lines taht are from the book, always
assume that they have a completely different meaning originally.

Morgil
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30753 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 21:01
Christopher Kreuzer  
Samsonknight <samsonknight2k [at] btinternet.com> wrote:

<snip>

> Well how am I supposed to know? I have not read the book, so as the
> movie is based on the book , it is only logical for me to think that
> line was taken from the book.

Please write to Peter Jackson and tell him this.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30761 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 22:33
Jette Goldie  
"Morgil" <morestelx [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d5dpq3$9fh$1 [at] nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
> Samsonknight wrote:
> > "Morgil" <morestelx [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:d5dkru$5ge$1 [at] nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
>
> >>It is just a movie idiocy which has nothing to do with the book.
> >>It was not supposed to make any sense in the movie either - just
> >>to sound cool and sinister.
> >>
> >>Morgil
> >
> >
> > Well how am I supposed to know? I have not read the book, so as
the movie is
> > based on teh book , it is only logical for me to think that line
was taken
> > from the book.
>
> That's okay really. But from now on always assume the opposite.
> And even if you find some lines taht are from the book, always
> assume that they have a completely different meaning originally.


And were said by someone completely different, at a different
time and place.



--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30762 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 22:36
Jette Goldie  
"the softrat" <softrat [at] pobox.com> wrote in message
news:utvi71tdah3b53autdjgq346t46c5to76h [at] 4ax.com...
> On 4 May 2005 10:17:06 -0700, "Alan"
> <alanandlouise [at] rochford78.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Samsonknight writes:
> >
> > (I have not read the book for reasons stated in a prior thread).
> >
> >I have not seen your previous thread. Can you tell us why it is you
> >have'nt read the books?
> >
> His lips get too tired.


Or he got "put off" by all those school teachers recommending
it. Having read several of their recommendations, I avoided
LotR until I was older, on the principle that anything *they*
recommended was bound to be sh*t. Thankfully this is one
case where the principle doesn't apply.



--
Jette Goldie
jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk
Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but
you
still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30763 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 22:40
jojo  
> I am not an avid reader, but since seeing the film(s), it has got me so
> intrigued. I cannot wait until the summer. If the movie is great, then I
> cannot begin to comprehend how great the books will be.

The books are deeper, richer and far more than any movie ever could be.
Don't see the movies again till you read the books...many things in the
movies
were changed.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30765 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 23:20
Samsonknight  
"Jette Goldie" <jet [at] blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message
news:itvee.26007$G8.15892 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "the softrat" <softrat [at] pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:utvi71tdah3b53autdjgq346t46c5to76h [at] 4ax.com...
>> On 4 May 2005 10:17:06 -0700, "Alan"
>> <alanandlouise [at] rochford78.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >Samsonknight writes:
>> >
>> > (I have not read the book for reasons stated in a prior thread).
>> >
>> >I have not seen your previous thread. Can you tell us why it is you
>> >have'nt read the books?
>> >
>> His lips get too tired.
>
>
> Or he got "put off" by all those school teachers recommending
> it. Having read several of their recommendations, I avoided
> LotR until I was older, on the principle that anything *they*
> recommended was bound to be sh*t. Thankfully this is one
> case where the principle doesn't apply.
>

Well none of my school teachers recommended it too me!

I only found out about it via the movies and an uncle who told me like 2
months before the movie released, how great LOTR is!
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30771 ] Fr, 06 Mai 2005 03:29
OMeallyMD  
Jette Goldie wrote:

> Or he got "put off" by all those school teachers recommending
> it. Having read several of their recommendations, I avoided
> LotR until I was older, on the principle that anything *they*
> recommended was bound to be sh*t. Thankfully this is one
> case where the principle doesn't apply.

Nor the *principal*!
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30778 ] Fr, 06 Mai 2005 16:00
Derek Broughton  
Jette Goldie wrote:

> Or he got "put off" by all those school teachers recommending
> it. Having read several of their recommendations, I avoided
> LotR until I was older, on the principle that anything *they*
> recommended was bound to be sh*t. Thankfully this is one
> case where the principle doesn't apply.

I can't imagine a school teacher recommending it. It doesn't fit their
definition of "literature".
--
derek
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30782 ] Fr, 06 Mai 2005 17:24
Natman  
On Fri, 06 May 2005 11:00:34 -0300, Derek Broughton
<news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote:

>Jette Goldie wrote:
>
>> Or he got "put off" by all those school teachers recommending
>> it. Having read several of their recommendations, I avoided
>> LotR until I was older, on the principle that anything *they*
>> recommended was bound to be sh*t. Thankfully this is one
>> case where the principle doesn't apply.
>
>I can't imagine a school teacher recommending it. It doesn't fit their
>definition of "literature".

I was first introduced to LOTR when I was 15 by my sophomore English
teacher, who had FOTR as a selection on our reading list.

Thank you Miss Donovan, wherever you are.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30783 ] Fr, 06 Mai 2005 17:35
Graham Lockwood  
On Fri, 6 May 2005 10:24:44 -0500, Natman wrote
(in article <qs2n71tf0r7agobucrrnhufe7rf5t79ocj [at] 4ax.com>):
> On Fri, 06 May 2005 11:00:34 -0300, Derek Broughton
> <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
>> Jette Goldie wrote:
>>
>>> Or he got "put off" by all those school teachers recommending
>>> it. Having read several of their recommendations, I avoided
>>> LotR until I was older, on the principle that anything *they*
>>> recommended was bound to be sh*t. Thankfully this is one
>>> case where the principle doesn't apply.
>>
>> I can't imagine a school teacher recommending it. It doesn't fit their
>> definition of "literature".
>
> I was first introduced to LOTR when I was 15 by my sophomore English
> teacher, who had FOTR as a selection on our reading list.
>
> Thank you Miss Donovan, wherever you are.

My sophomore in high school, they introduced "The Hobbit" as required
freshman English reading.



---
Graham
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30786 ] Fr, 06 Mai 2005 19:35
the softrat  
On Fri, 06 May 2005 11:00:34 -0300, Derek Broughton
<news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote:

>Jette Goldie wrote:
>
>> Or he got "put off" by all those school teachers recommending
>> it. Having read several of their recommendations, I avoided
>> LotR until I was older, on the principle that anything *they*
>> recommended was bound to be sh*t. Thankfully this is one
>> case where the principle doesn't apply.
>
>I can't imagine a school teacher recommending it. It doesn't fit their
>definition of "literature".

You mean that it's not boring enough?

PS: *I* suffered through 'Willa Cather'.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30788 ] Fr, 06 Mai 2005 20:44
Derek Broughton  
the softrat wrote:

> On Fri, 06 May 2005 11:00:34 -0300, Derek Broughton
> <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
>>Jette Goldie wrote:
>>
>>> Or he got "put off" by all those school teachers recommending
>>> it. Having read several of their recommendations, I avoided
>>> LotR until I was older, on the principle that anything *they*
>>> recommended was bound to be sh*t. Thankfully this is one
>>> case where the principle doesn't apply.
>>
>>I can't imagine a school teacher recommending it. It doesn't fit their
>>definition of "literature".
>
> You mean that it's not boring enough?

Exactly. I had some great teachers. Unfortunately, not in English...

> PS: *I* suffered through 'Willa Cather'.

Actually, PS usually means post-script, and yours seems to be either a
pre-script (if the script is just the signature) or an intra-script :-)
--
derek
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30789 ] Do, 05 Mai 2005 21:26
Raven  
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:34uee.25907$G8.7554 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> Samsonknight <samsonknight2k [at] btinternet.com> wrote:

> > Well how am I supposed to know? I have not read the book, so as the
> > movie is based on the book , it is only logical for me to think that
> > line was taken from the book.

> Please write to Peter Jackson and tell him this.

And send a copy of the letter to the softrat. It is so amusing to see
him lash his naked tail in anger, like a cat whose pounce failed because the
mouse made it back to its hole in time. It amuses himself to be angry too,
I think.

Hrafn.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30791 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 02:11
Jette Goldie  
"Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> wrote in message
news:pMzee.45470$PA4.10392 [at] tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Jette Goldie wrote:
>
> > Or he got "put off" by all those school teachers recommending
> > it. Having read several of their recommendations, I avoided
> > LotR until I was older, on the principle that anything *they*
> > recommended was bound to be sh*t. Thankfully this is one
> > case where the principle doesn't apply.
>
> Nor the *principal*!


No, I wouldn't have taken anything he said as a
recommendation. Our Principal was an idiot of
the first water.



--
Jette Goldie
jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk
Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but
you
still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30792 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 02:13
Jette Goldie  
"Derek Broughton" <news [at] pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:2t9sk2-0n8.ln1 [at] othello.pointerstop.ca...
> Jette Goldie wrote:
>
> > Or he got "put off" by all those school teachers recommending
> > it. Having read several of their recommendations, I avoided
> > LotR until I was older, on the principle that anything *they*
> > recommended was bound to be sh*t. Thankfully this is one
> > case where the principle doesn't apply.
>
> I can't imagine a school teacher recommending it. It doesn't fit
their
> definition of "literature".


Oh, it was on the list of "recommended reading" for
O levels and Highers at my school. "Lord of the Rings"
along with "Lord of the Flies", "Brave New World" and
"1984" comprised the entire list of *recommended*
SF and Fantasy.

(that was 30 years ago - the situation has improved
somewhat)


--
Jette Goldie
jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk
INTERACTION - the 63rd Worldcon
"A European Worldcon in Glasgow"
http://interaction.worldcon.org.uk/
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30793 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 02:16
Jette Goldie  
"jojo" <cgv_2000*yourhat* [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Twvee.1384$7U.638 [at] newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
>
> > I am not an avid reader, but since seeing the film(s), it has got
me so
> > intrigued. I cannot wait until the summer. If the movie is great,
then I
> > cannot begin to comprehend how great the books will be.
>
> The books are deeper, richer and far more than any movie ever could
be.
> Don't see the movies again till you read the books...many things in
the
> movies
> were changed.


although to be fair, as "book adaptations to movies" go
it's a good deal better than most.

(I made the mistake of watching "Earthsea" a few weeks
ago - if I'd been U K le Guin I wouldn't bother suing - I'd
just buy myself a large gun and get the address of the
director)


--
Jette Goldie
jette [at] blueyonder.co.uk
INTERACTION - the 63rd Worldcon
"A European Worldcon in Glasgow"
http://interaction.worldcon.org.uk/
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30794 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 06:10
the softrat  
On Sat, 07 May 2005 00:11:36 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
<jet [at] blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:

>
>"Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:pMzee.45470$PA4.10392 [at] tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> Jette Goldie wrote:
>>
>> > Or he got "put off" by all those school teachers recommending
>> > it. Having read several of their recommendations, I avoided
>> > LotR until I was older, on the principle that anything *they*
>> > recommended was bound to be sh*t. Thankfully this is one
>> > case where the principle doesn't apply.
>>
>> Nor the *principal*!
>
>
>No, I wouldn't have taken anything he said as a
>recommendation. Our Principal was an idiot of
>the first water.

Too bad. We had some rotten teachers, but the principal was a Ace! One
problem with the bad teachers was that they made the athletic coaches
teach, all except for the senior football (American) coach and his
assistant. Only the tennis coach was a half-way decent teacher. Of
course none of that explains my nemesis, a ninth-grade English
teacher.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"When science is on your side, argue the science. When the law is on
your side, argue the law. When neither science nor the law is on your
side, issue a press release."
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30795 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 06:12
the softrat  
On Sat, 07 May 2005 00:16:07 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
<jet [at] blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
>(I made the mistake of watching "Earthsea" a few weeks
>ago - if I'd been U K le Guin I wouldn't bother suing - I'd
>just buy myself a large gun and get the address of the
>director)

If *I* were a successful author, I would have just found names for my
evilest villains in my new book....

....or stupidest .....

....or both!


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat [at] pobox.com
--
"When science is on your side, argue the science. When the law is on
your side, argue the law. When neither science nor the law is on your
side, issue a press release."
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30799 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 13:02
Morgil  
Jette Goldie wrote:

> although to be fair, as "book adaptations to movies" go
> it's a good deal better than most.

I haven't seen 'most' adaptations, but this one was so bad
that making it any worse would not have made any difference.

> (I made the mistake of watching "Earthsea" a few weeks
> ago - if I'd been U K le Guin I wouldn't bother suing - I'd
> just buy myself a large gun and get the address of the
> director)

Phah, you're just an Earthsea-purist who is whining because
the movies didn't follow the books to the letter and can't
comprehend that books and movies are a different media and
don't understand the commercial demands and you should be
grateful for all the new readers it will bring to LeGuin.

Morgil
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30800 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 13:57
Beeblebear  
"Morgil" <morestelx [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d5i787$2cb$1 [at] nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
> Jette Goldie wrote:
>
>> although to be fair, as "book adaptations to movies" go
>> it's a good deal better than most.
>
> I haven't seen 'most' adaptations, but this one was so bad
> that making it any worse would not have made any difference.
>
>> (I made the mistake of watching "Earthsea" a few weeks
>> ago - if I'd been U K le Guin I wouldn't bother suing - I'd
>> just buy myself a large gun and get the address of the
>> director)
>
> Phah, you're just an Earthsea-purist who is whining because
> the movies didn't follow the books to the letter and can't
> comprehend that books and movies are a different media and
> don't understand the commercial demands and you should be
> grateful for all the new readers it will bring to LeGuin.
>

Have you seen the Earthsea "adaptation"?
They don't even get the name of the major character right.

--
--
Chris Lyth (clythJFK [at] ifis.org.uk - shoot the president to reply)

Any nitwit can understand computers. Many do. -- Ted Nelson
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30805 ] Sa, 07 Mai 2005 17:56
Morgil  
Beeblebear wrote:
> "Morgil" <morestelx [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:d5i787$2cb$1 [at] nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
>
>>Jette Goldie wrote:

>>>(I made the mistake of watching "Earthsea" a few weeks
>>>ago - if I'd been U K le Guin I wouldn't bother suing - I'd
>>>just buy myself a large gun and get the address of the
>>>director)
>>
>>Phah, you're just an Earthsea-purist who is whining because
>>the movies didn't follow the books to the letter and can't
>>comprehend that books and movies are a different media and
>>don't understand the commercial demands and you should be
>>grateful for all the new readers it will bring to LeGuin.
>>
>
>
> Have you seen the Earthsea "adaptation"?
> They don't even get the name of the major character right.

Well, in LotR they got the name right, but appearance,
character, behaviour, attitude, were completely wrong.
I would rather have it the other way around if possible.

(BTW-no, I haven't seen it and I was speaking tongue in cheek)

Morgil
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30817 ] So, 08 Mai 2005 13:19
Flame of the West  
Jette Goldie wrote:

> (I made the mistake of watching "Earthsea" a few weeks
> ago - if I'd been U K le Guin I wouldn't bother suing - I'd
> just buy myself a large gun and get the address of the
> director)

You mean with all the money she probably made,
causing her to cry all the way to the bank?

Remember: cash or kudos!


-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30818 ] So, 08 Mai 2005 13:28
Flame of the West  
Morgil wrote:

> Phah, you're just an Earthsea-purist who is whining because
> the movies didn't follow the books to the letter and can't
> comprehend that books and movies are a different media and
> don't understand the commercial demands and you should be
> grateful for all the new readers it will bring to LeGuin.

It doesn't apply to Earthsea, of course, but for a tongue-in-
cheek attempted putdown of the defenders of the movie trilogy,
you've actually a pretty good job describing our perception of
you LotR purists. It really *is* a different media, but I
suppose you'd prefer a film of a CGI Professor Tolkien just
reading the book out loud?


-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
Re: "The World of Men" [message #30841 ] So, 08 Mai 2005 20:57
Morgil  
Flame of the West wrote:
> Morgil wrote:
>
>> Phah, you're just an Earthsea-purist who is whining because
>> the movies didn't follow the books to the letter and can't
>> comprehend that books and movies are a different media and
>> don't understand the commercial demands and you should be
>> grateful for all the new readers it will bring to LeGuin.
>
>
> It doesn't apply to Earthsea, of course, but for a tongue-in-
> cheek attempted putdown of the defenders of the movie trilogy,
> you've actually a pretty good job describing our perception of
> you LotR purists.

I'm not a purist and it was precisely my intention to show
how rediculous and crooked perception you movie fanatics
have of anyone who dares to critisize your Precious movie.

It really *is* a different media, but I
> suppose you'd prefer a film of a CGI Professor Tolkien just
> reading the book out loud?

I would prefer a *good* movie, instead of the media-hyped
piece of crap we ended up having. I wouldn't mind changes
either, as long as they would be done by someone who knows
what he's doing instead of the talentless gits who mucked
up everything they touched to.

Morgil
Vorheriges Thema:For attention of any Miyazaki fans
Nächstes Thema:CotW Delayed
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