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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » On the subject of Voldies death
| On the subject of Voldies death [message #300371] |
Mon, 17 July 2006 13:23 |
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Most of us have been assuming all along that Harry will be the one to
kill Voldemort. The prophecy sort of implies that but doesn't state it
explicitly.
Question we have to ask is *how* he can do it? We saw that even when
in the white heat of anger he was unable to do more that slow up
Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill... so
how is he supposed to summon up enough power to kill off the most
powerful wizard still alive??
Answer is - he isn't. I think the only one now able to defeat
Voldemort would be Snape... any takers??
--
Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
http://www.australianopinion.com
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302610 ] |
Mon, 17 July 2006 22:43 |
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Sky Rider wrote:
> he [Harry] was unable to do more that slow up
> Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill
Hey, give the kid a break, it's the first time he ever tried it.
I'll bet the very first time Tom Riddle tried a unforgivable curse it
wasn't at full power either. Practice makes perfect.
> I think the only one now able to defeat
> Voldemort would be Snape
If that's what JKR had in mind she would have called the first book
"Severus Snape And The Philosopher's Stone".
To me a more interesting question than who will kill Voldemort, which I
think is obvious, is who will kill Harry; most would say Voldemort but
I tend to think Snape.
Eggplant
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302623 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 03:00 |
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On 17 Jul 2006 13:43:32 -0700, "eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com>
looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
>Sky Rider wrote:
>> he [Harry] was unable to do more that slow up
>> Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill
>Hey, give the kid a break, it's the first time he ever tried it.
>I'll bet the very first time Tom Riddle tried a unforgivable curse it
>wasn't at full power either. Practice makes perfect.
Fair enough... except where and how is he to get 'practice' in the
space of the next book? The only people allowed to use avada kevadra
are the Aurors... and Harry is a long way from becoming an Auror...
especially if he doesn't finish his Newts!!
If he tries to 'practice' an unforgiveable spell he'll be spending a
lot of time discussing issues of the day with Lucius in Azkaban :)
>> I think the only one now able to defeat
>> Voldemort would be Snape
>If that's what JKR had in mind she would have called the first book
>"Severus Snape And The Philosopher's Stone".
Not sure where you get that proposal from. There's been nothing in the
books so far to indicate *who* is supposed to finish Voldie off...
we've all assumed it will be Harry... but like I said it's an
assumption only and on his form so far he is nowhere near powerful
enough, nor nasty enough, to kill him. As he has said himself, a lot
of his survival has been on the basis of luck and the skills (or
mistakes) of others.
>To me a more interesting question than who will kill Voldemort, which I
>think is obvious, is who will kill Harry; most would say Voldemort but
>I tend to think Snape.
Snape may yet turn out to be on the side of good as Dumbledore
insisted... and let's not forget that Wormtail still has that magical
bond with the person who saved his life. It might have been a
throwaway line but it's still part of the book!!
One possibility would be Bellatrix trying to kill Harry and hitting
Voldie instead... but I'd say that is *so* soap opera as to be totally
discounted :)
--
Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
http://www.australianopinion.com
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302637 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 04:53 |
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In article <o5cob2dbc1pqam1ici6q34dh4te0u4h8qa [at] 4ax.com>,
Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com> wrote:
>"eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com>
>>Sky Rider wrote:
<snip - Harry killing Voldy>
>If he tries to 'practice' an unforgiveable spell he'll be spending a
>lot of time discussing issues of the day with Lucius in Azkaban :)
>
>>> I think the only one now able to defeat Voldemort would be Snape
>
>>If that's what JKR had in mind she would have called the first book
>>"Severus Snape And The Philosopher's Stone".
>
>Not sure where you get that proposal from. There's been nothing in the
>books so far to indicate *who* is supposed to finish Voldie off...
>we've all assumed it will be Harry... but like I said it's an
>assumption only and on his form so far he is nowhere near powerful
>enough, nor nasty enough, to kill him. As he has said himself, a lot
>of his survival has been on the basis of luck and the skills (or
>mistakes) of others.
The prophecy only says "vanquish". Dumbledore and Harry assumed it
would have to mean "kill". However, the late-20th-century version
of the children's hero story began to have the hero stay "innocent"
by having a deus ex machina kill the villain after the hero had
managed to humiliate or otherwise severely annoy the villain. Also,
JKR is leaning really heavily on the "pure and innocent soul" bit,
and I doubt that she will want to have Harry damage his soul in any
way. So here's what I think _might_ happen:
After the horcruxes are destroyed, Voldemort is somehow in a situation
in which the Dementors turn against him. He is Dementored. Harry's
scar connection makes Harry have to feel the process - and Voldemort's
personality and final soul-fragment leaps through it into Harry. The
artifically created magical body dies, and Harry has to fight Voldemort
entirely inside his own skull. His undamaged soul will be important
to his success.
=Tamar
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302644 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 05:51 |
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Sky Rider wrote:
> Fair enough... except where and how is he to get 'practice' in the
> space of the next book? The only people allowed to use avada kevadra
> are the Aurors...
/Why/ do so many people miss the time frame and implications of Barty
Crouch authorizing the Aurors to use the Unforgivable Curses?
No one is legally allowed to use any Unforgivable Curse on a human being
during the time in which the books are set.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302650 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 07:07 |
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Sky Rider wrote:
> If he tries to 'practice' an unforgiveable spell
> he'll be spending a lot of time discussing issues
> of the day with Lucius in Azkaban
Haven't you figured out by now how wizard law works, if you are in
favor at the ministry you can literally get away with murder, if you
are in disfavor they will try to put you in Azkaban for spiting on the
sidewalk. Harry is back in favor so he'll have no trouble from the
law.
> There's been nothing in the books so far to
> indicate *who* is supposed to finish Voldie off
If somebody else kills Voldemort readers would feel cheated and
foolish. After reading about Harry for 7 books to then discover you had
been following the wrong man and Harry was really someone of no
importance would be a very unpleasant surprise.
> Snape may yet turn out to be on the side of good
And pigs may fly.
> Wormtail still has that magical bond with the person who saved his life.
That bond didn't do Harry much good in book 4 when Wormtail tortured
him.
Eggplant
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302653 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 07:29 |
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On 17 Jul 2006 22:07:58 -0700, "eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com>
looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
>Sky Rider wrote:
>> If he tries to 'practice' an unforgiveable spell
>> he'll be spending a lot of time discussing issues
>> of the day with Lucius in Azkaban
>Haven't you figured out by now how wizard law works, if you are in
>favor at the ministry you can literally get away with murder, if you
>are in disfavor they will try to put you in Azkaban for spiting on the
>sidewalk. Harry is back in favor so he'll have no trouble from the
>law.
Awww... that's a bit of a cop-out tho. It's way to easy and
predictable... I think JKR has 'something else' up her sleeve which
won't disappoint the faithful.
>> There's been nothing in the books so far to
>> indicate *who* is supposed to finish Voldie off
>If somebody else kills Voldemort readers would feel cheated and
>foolish. After reading about Harry for 7 books to then discover you had
>been following the wrong man and Harry was really someone of no
>importance would be a very unpleasant surprise.
The books are about Harry... but why would you feel cheated to find he
didn't kill Voldie?? How would you feel if he was killed by Voldie and
then *Ginny* (for example) killed Voldie discovering more power
because her love had been destroyed... or somesuch :)
In the end it's a story... if Harry kills Voldie, or if another does
it is really not the focal point of the books.
All the prophecy has said is that one must die... it *doesn't* say one
must kill the other!
>> Snape may yet turn out to be on the side of good
>And pigs may fly.
I've been right before... I think I am this time as well. I had a long
argument with people when I said a houself could apparate inside
Hogwarts.
>> Wormtail still has that magical bond with the person who saved his life.
>That bond didn't do Harry much good in book 4 when Wormtail tortured
>him.
So? Dumbledore thought it was important and that's good enough for me
:)
Besides. Wormtail *didn't* torture him... Voldie did. All Wormtail did
was cut his arm a little to extract some blood for the rejuvenation
spell.
--
Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
http://www.australianopinion.com
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302665 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 08:38 |
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Sky Rider wrote:
> if Harry kills Voldie, or if another does
it is really not the focal point of the books.
It is for me. If somebody else kills Voldemort I want my money back.
> Wormtail *didn't* torture him... Voldie did.
> All Wormtail did was cut his arm a little to
> extract some blood for the rejuvenation spell.
And kill Harry's friend, and hit him in the face, and tie him to a
tombstone, and gag him. And cut his arm "a little"?
Eggplant
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302669 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 09:46 |
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On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:27:28 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
wrote:
>Most of us have been assuming all along that Harry will be the one to
>kill Voldemort. The prophecy sort of implies that but doesn't state it
>explicitly.
>
>Question we have to ask is *how* he can do it? We saw that even when
>in the white heat of anger he was unable to do more that slow up
>Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill... so
>how is he supposed to summon up enough power to kill off the most
>powerful wizard still alive??
>
>Answer is - he isn't. I think the only one now able to defeat
>Voldemort would be Snape... any takers??
All he needs to do is grab a stick of dynamite and some glue.
Or find a way to reflect spell back at a person without someone dying
for him.
I get the feeling Voldemort will be his own undoing.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302670 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 09:49 |
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On 17 Jul 2006 13:43:32 -0700, "eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Sky Rider wrote:
>
>> he [Harry] was unable to do more that slow up
>> Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill
>
>Hey, give the kid a break, it's the first time he ever tried it.
>I'll bet the very first time Tom Riddle tried a unforgivable curse it
>wasn't at full power either. Practice makes perfect.
>
>> I think the only one now able to defeat
>> Voldemort would be Snape
>
>If that's what JKR had in mind she would have called the first book
>"Severus Snape And The Philosopher's Stone".
>
>To me a more interesting question than who will kill Voldemort, which I
>think is obvious, is who will kill Harry; most would say Voldemort but
>I tend to think Snape.
>
>Eggplant
Only V can kill Harry according to the prophecy. But when Harry wins,
and it's fulfilled, will things change so anyone can kill Harry? Or
will he only be able to die of natural causes?
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302671 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 09:49 |
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On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:00:59 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
wrote:
>If he tries to 'practice' an unforgiveable spell he'll be spending a
>lot of time discussing issues of the day with Lucius in Azkaban :)
If he attacks mosquitoes, and claims it's to stop Voldemort, I doubt
anyone will care.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302672 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 09:50 |
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On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 02:53:50 -0000, dicconf [at] radix.net (Richard Eney)
wrote:
>The prophecy only says "vanquish". Dumbledore and Harry assumed it
>would have to mean "kill".
No, but "either must die at the hand of the other." Kinda includes
kill.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302682 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 16:45 |
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Toon escribió:
> On 17 Jul 2006 13:43:32 -0700, "eggplant" <eggplant107 [at] hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Sky Rider wrote:
>>
>>> he [Harry] was unable to do more that slow up
>>> Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill
>> Hey, give the kid a break, it's the first time he ever tried it.
>> I'll bet the very first time Tom Riddle tried a unforgivable curse it
>> wasn't at full power either. Practice makes perfect.
>>
>>> I think the only one now able to defeat
>>> Voldemort would be Snape
>> If that's what JKR had in mind she would have called the first book
>> "Severus Snape And The Philosopher's Stone".
>>
>> To me a more interesting question than who will kill Voldemort, which I
>> think is obvious, is who will kill Harry; most would say Voldemort but
>> I tend to think Snape.
>>
>> Eggplant
>
> Only V can kill Harry according to the prophecy. But when Harry wins,
> and it's fulfilled, will things change so anyone can kill Harry? Or
> will he only be able to die of natural causes?
So, if I AK Harry, he won't die? For some reason, JO hasn't show us till
now what would happen if Harry gets the Killing Curse - aside the night
his parents die -. We didn't know the curse from book I to III, LV
didn't AK him in Goblet of Fire, DD saved Harry from that spell in OotO,
no big fight in HBP. NOw, obviously Harry can't be hit with it if he is
vulnerable because he dies and book's over, but if he is in fact
immortal and invulnerable to that curse, Jo's waiting that bit for book 7.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302683 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 16:45 |
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Toon escribió:
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:00:59 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
> wrote:
>
>> If he tries to 'practice' an unforgiveable spell he'll be spending a
>> lot of time discussing issues of the day with Lucius in Azkaban :)
>
> If he attacks mosquitoes, and claims it's to stop Voldemort, I doubt
> anyone will care.
Scrimgeour will care. Also Dolores.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302691 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 20:53 |
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Sky Rider wrote:
> Most of us have been assuming all along that Harry will be the one to
> kill Voldemort. The prophecy sort of implies that but doesn't state it
> explicitly.
>
> Question we have to ask is *how* he can do it? We saw that even when
> in the white heat of anger he was unable to do more that slow up
> Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill... so
> how is he supposed to summon up enough power to kill off the most
> powerful wizard still alive??
>
> Answer is - he isn't. I think the only one now able to defeat
> Voldemort would be Snape... any takers??
Can't be snape - must be Harry.
THe Prophecy says that "the one" with the power to vanquish the dark
lord. Snape is not the one.
Based on the prophecy - V chose Harry to be the one "marked" - so it is
ONLY harry that can do it.
However -Bellatrix is not V. Bellatrix does not suffer from the number
of different "problems" between Harry and V. SHe obviously does not have
Fawkes' feather in her wand, she was not returned with Harry's blood,
Pettigrew does not owe her a life debt. her mother apparently did not
die to save her and she wasn't the "boy who lived"
Once Harry has eliminated all of V's horcruxes, the situation will be
quite different between V and Harry than Bellatrix and Harry. SNape may
be involved - as will Pettigrew - and Lily's Love and eyes - etc - but
it will be Harry who does V in.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302705 ] |
Tue, 18 July 2006 22:28 |
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Sky Rider wrote:
> Most of us have been assuming all along that Harry will be the one to
> kill Voldemort. The prophecy sort of implies that but doesn't state it
> explicitly.
>
> Question we have to ask is *how* he can do it? We saw that even when
> in the white heat of anger he was unable to do more that slow up
> Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill... so
> how is he supposed to summon up enough power to kill off the most
> powerful wizard still alive??
>
> Answer is - he isn't. I think the only one now able to defeat
> Voldemort would be Snape... any takers??
> --
>
> Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
> http://www.australianopinion.com
I've said it several times before but it still (IMNSHO) bears
repeating. Voldemort will die when the locked room (Of LOVE) in the MoM
is opened by Harry. No idea how they will get there but they will!! It
is after all the "One power that LV knows not"
BriD
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302714 ] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 02:07 |
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On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:53:06 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
eye and said :
>Sky Rider wrote:
>> Most of us have been assuming all along that Harry will be the one to
>> kill Voldemort. The prophecy sort of implies that but doesn't state it
>> explicitly.
>> Question we have to ask is *how* he can do it? We saw that even when
>> in the white heat of anger he was unable to do more that slow up
>> Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill... so
>> how is he supposed to summon up enough power to kill off the most
>> powerful wizard still alive??
>> Answer is - he isn't. I think the only one now able to defeat
>> Voldemort would be Snape... any takers??
>Can't be snape - must be Harry.
>THe Prophecy says that "the one" with the power to vanquish the dark
>lord. Snape is not the one.
>Based on the prophecy - V chose Harry to be the one "marked" - so it is
>ONLY harry that can do it.
Not so. As you said... only Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark
Lord... but that *doesn't* mean he himself has to wield it as a weapon
directly against Voldie!
We know from Dumbledore comments that 'love' is the key to Harry's
power. Suppose (which is all we can do for a few months) that
Voldemort *does* kill Harry. Now then... Harry is well loved by all
his friends... if one or all of them act together to kill Voldie in
revenge... well he is still dead... and so is Harry... *but* the power
that killed Voldemort was still generated by Harry... see the point?
In this scenario, even if Harry doesn't directly kill Voldie, it *is*
the power he has to engender that love which will be the cause of
Voldie's downfall. I'm not saying that Snape will suddenly become
Harry's bosom buddy... but maybe his death will spark something in him
that makes him turn on his master.
Ok it's far fetched... but so is the storyline in general :D
>However -Bellatrix is not V. Bellatrix does not suffer from the number
>of different "problems" between Harry and V. SHe obviously does not have
>Fawkes' feather in her wand, she was not returned with Harry's blood,
>Pettigrew does not owe her a life debt. her mother apparently did not
>die to save her and she wasn't the "boy who lived"
Accepted :)
>Once Harry has eliminated all of V's horcruxes, the situation will be
>quite different between V and Harry than Bellatrix and Harry. SNape may
>be involved - as will Pettigrew - and Lily's Love and eyes - etc - but
>it will be Harry who does V in.
In one way or another yes... but maybe not directly.
--
Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
http://www.australianopinion.com
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302717 ] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 02:28 |
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On 18 Jul 2006 13:28:32 -0700, "BriD" <bethbriuk [at] yahoo.co.uk> looked
at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
>Sky Rider wrote:
>> Most of us have been assuming all along that Harry will be the one to
>> kill Voldemort. The prophecy sort of implies that but doesn't state it
>> explicitly.
>> Question we have to ask is *how* he can do it? We saw that even when
>> in the white heat of anger he was unable to do more that slow up
>> Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill... so
>> how is he supposed to summon up enough power to kill off the most
>> powerful wizard still alive??
>> Answer is - he isn't. I think the only one now able to defeat
>> Voldemort would be Snape... any takers??
>I've said it several times before but it still (IMNSHO) bears
>repeating. Voldemort will die when the locked room (Of LOVE) in the MoM
>is opened by Harry. No idea how they will get there but they will!! It
>is after all the "One power that LV knows not"
As you (and John Lennon) say... love is the answer. The problem is how
to use it. Love isn't a weapon... it's a defence.
--
Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
http://www.australianopinion.com
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302720 ] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 03:31 |
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Sky Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:53:06 GMT, Thom Madura
> <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
> eye and said :
>
>>Sky Rider wrote:
>
>
>>>Most of us have been assuming all along that Harry will be the one to
>>>kill Voldemort. The prophecy sort of implies that but doesn't state it
>>>explicitly.
>
>
>
>>>Question we have to ask is *how* he can do it? We saw that even when
>>>in the white heat of anger he was unable to do more that slow up
>>>Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill... so
>>>how is he supposed to summon up enough power to kill off the most
>>>powerful wizard still alive??
>
>
>
>>>Answer is - he isn't. I think the only one now able to defeat
>>>Voldemort would be Snape... any takers??
>
>
>>Can't be snape - must be Harry.
>
>
>>THe Prophecy says that "the one" with the power to vanquish the dark
>>lord. Snape is not the one.
>
>
>>Based on the prophecy - V chose Harry to be the one "marked" - so it is
>>ONLY harry that can do it.
>
>
> Not so. As you said... only Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark
> Lord... but that *doesn't* mean he himself has to wield it as a weapon
> directly against Voldie!
I think it does. I cannot see how anyone else can use the power ONLY
Harry has.
>
> We know from Dumbledore comments that 'love' is the key to Harry's
> power.
I am not sure that is the case this time.
The "love" that killed Quirrel in the first book no longer effects V -
because he used Harry's blood to return and can touch Harry without
problems.
The "love" that saved Harry the first time actually turned out to be an
ancient magic that both Dumbledore and V didn't think about right away.
WHile I do believe that "love" will have some place - there are an awful
lot of other things involved that will help too. I also believe that
Snape will help Harry too - but it will still be Harry who vanquishes V.
Suppose (which is all we can do for a few months) that
> Voldemort *does* kill Harry. Now then... Harry is well loved by all
> his friends... if one or all of them act together to kill Voldie in
> revenge... well he is still dead... and so is Harry... *but* the power
> that killed Voldemort was still generated by Harry... see the point?
I do not agree - The Prophecy is specific enough for me to say that
Harry will do it - he may have help - but that is all the others will do.
>
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302726 ] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 05:21 |
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On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:53:06 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Sky Rider wrote:
>> Most of us have been assuming all along that Harry will be the one to
>> kill Voldemort. The prophecy sort of implies that but doesn't state it
>> explicitly.
>>
>> Question we have to ask is *how* he can do it? We saw that even when
>> in the white heat of anger he was unable to do more that slow up
>> Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill... so
>> how is he supposed to summon up enough power to kill off the most
>> powerful wizard still alive??
One thing is sure. That "gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye" will
have something to do with it. Let's not forget about it.
Rowling recently reaffirmed that the 'gleam' will come back into play:
MA: Does the gleam of triumph still have yet to make an
appearance?
JKR: That's still enormously significant. And let's face it, I
haven’t told you that much is enormously significant, so you can let
your imaginations run free there.
ES: I think everybody realized it was significant when they read
it but we didn’t see it materialize in 5 or 6.
JKR: Well, it still is.
ES: We’ve been kind of waiting for the big revelation.
JKR: Absolutely, that's for seven. That's for seven.
Of course, now that we know about the horcruxes, how could the blood
'transfusion' at the graveyard have made Voldemort vulnerable to
Harry?
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302730 ] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 06:49 |
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* Sky Rider:
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
> > Based on the prophecy - V chose Harry to be the one "marked" - so it is
> > ONLY harry that can do it.
>
> Not so. As you said... only Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark
> Lord... but that *doesn't* mean he himself has to wield it as a weapon
> directly against Voldie!
>
> We know from Dumbledore comments that 'love' is the key to Harry's power.
> Suppose (which is all we can do for a few months) that Voldemort *does*
> kill Harry. Now then... Harry is well loved by all his friends... if one
> or all of them act together to kill Voldie in revenge... well he is still
> dead... and so is Harry... *but* the power that killed Voldemort was still
> generated by Harry... see the point?
This doesn't sound like the kind of story that JKR would put forward. If
anything, I think that Harry's death might prompt a huge surge in
/compassion/ among his friends, but I don't think that Rowling would allow
her main characters to display such a desire for vengeance (even if it is
well-deserved).
(And FWIW, I think the prophecy indicates pretty strongly that Harry will
"vanquish" Voldemort directly, rather than by his friends' actions after his
death.)
--
Benjamin D. Esham
bdesham [at] gmail.com | AIM: bdesham128 | Jabber: same as e-mail
"I want to shoot people in the face, bang prostitutes, traffic
drugs, steal cars, and terrorize police officers without this
filthy smut in my game." — Maddox on /GTA San Andreas/
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302734 ] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 07:04 |
|
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:45:01 -0500, drusilla <me [at] me.net> wrote:
>So, if I AK Harry, he won't die? For some reason, JO hasn't show us till
>now what would happen if Harry gets the Killing Curse - aside the night
>his parents die -. We didn't know the curse from book I to III, LV
>didn't AK him in Goblet of Fire, DD saved Harry from that spell in OotO,
>no big fight in HBP. NOw, obviously Harry can't be hit with it if he is
>vulnerable because he dies and book's over, but if he is in fact
>immortal and invulnerable to that curse, Jo's waiting that bit for book 7.
But who would try it? The story goes V AK's the Potters, then AK's
Harry. Somehow Harry lives and V dies. Now, V's the most powerful
dude around to the D E's. He even died AKing Harry, who lived. How
soon will you try to AK the kid who survived it once before? Fully
knowing the last guy who tried it, a better wizard than you, died?
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302735 ] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 07:04 |
|
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:45:25 -0500, drusilla <me [at] me.net> wrote:
>Toon escribió:
>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:00:59 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If he tries to 'practice' an unforgiveable spell he'll be spending a
>>> lot of time discussing issues of the day with Lucius in Azkaban :)
>>
>> If he attacks mosquitoes, and claims it's to stop Voldemort, I doubt
>> anyone will care.
>
>Scrimgeour will care. Also Dolores.
Well, Dolores should be happy. Free eats.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302736 ] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 07:06 |
|
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:28:18 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
wrote:
>On 18 Jul 2006 13:28:32 -0700, "BriD" <bethbriuk [at] yahoo.co.uk> looked
>at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
>>Sky Rider wrote:
>
>>> Most of us have been assuming all along that Harry will be the one to
>>> kill Voldemort. The prophecy sort of implies that but doesn't state it
>>> explicitly.
>
>>> Question we have to ask is *how* he can do it? We saw that even when
>>> in the white heat of anger he was unable to do more that slow up
>>> Bellatrix with a spell that was meant to just hurt... not kill... so
>>> how is he supposed to summon up enough power to kill off the most
>>> powerful wizard still alive??
>
>>> Answer is - he isn't. I think the only one now able to defeat
>>> Voldemort would be Snape... any takers??
>
>>I've said it several times before but it still (IMNSHO) bears
>>repeating. Voldemort will die when the locked room (Of LOVE) in the MoM
>>is opened by Harry. No idea how they will get there but they will!! It
>>is after all the "One power that LV knows not"
>
>As you (and John Lennon) say... love is the answer. The problem is how
>to use it. Love isn't a weapon... it's a defence.
The room's full of fluffy pink wabbits. Their cuteness and wiggling
noses will prove too much for V to bear, and his heart will give out
in self defense.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302739 ] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 09:28 |
|
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:07:24 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
wrote:
>Now then... Harry is well loved by all
>his friends... if one or all of them act together to kill Voldie in
>revenge... well he is still dead... and so is Harry... *but* the power
>that killed Voldemort was still generated by Harry... see the point?
The only real flaw is that we're to believe nobody ever generated that
much love to do this before hand (IE, DD.)
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302740 ] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 09:31 |
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On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 03:21:07 GMT, gjw <gjw [at] example.net> wrote:
>
>Of course, now that we know about the horcruxes, how could the blood
>'transfusion' at the graveyard have made Voldemort vulnerable to
>Harry?
>
Transfered his Soul Bit back into V, and now there's one less Horcrux,
and nobody has to expect Harry to die to destroy his scar.
Or, V did say he tried many immortality means. Any one or combo could
increase his life force energies, horcrux or no. So, maybe what would
normally kill a person won't kill V. But now that he has Harry's
blood, he's weakened back to a "normal" man.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302775 ] |
Wed, 19 July 2006 23:51 |
|
Benjamin Esham wrote:
> * Sky Rider:
>
>
>>Thom Madura wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Based on the prophecy - V chose Harry to be the one "marked" - so it is
>>>ONLY harry that can do it.
>>
>>Not so. As you said... only Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark
>>Lord... but that *doesn't* mean he himself has to wield it as a weapon
>>directly against Voldie!
>>
>>We know from Dumbledore comments that 'love' is the key to Harry's power.
>>Suppose (which is all we can do for a few months) that Voldemort *does*
>>kill Harry. Now then... Harry is well loved by all his friends... if one
>>or all of them act together to kill Voldie in revenge... well he is still
>>dead... and so is Harry... *but* the power that killed Voldemort was still
>>generated by Harry... see the point?
>
>
> This doesn't sound like the kind of story that JKR would put forward. If
> anything, I think that Harry's death might prompt a huge surge in
> /compassion/ among his friends, but I don't think that Rowling would allow
> her main characters to display such a desire for vengeance (even if it is
> well-deserved).
>
> (And FWIW, I think the prophecy indicates pretty strongly that Harry will
> "vanquish" Voldemort directly, rather than by his friends' actions after his
> death.)
>
Harry is not going to die during the struggle to kill V.
If you follow the way JKR does her interviews, you would know that the
statement that Harry might die wasn't really serious.
In fact - just the fact that she made the statement in the way she did
means that Harry will not die during the struggle at least. I have
always thought that he might die in an epilogue after a long life - but
one things is for sure - Harry will not die BEFORE V does.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302783 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 01:00 |
|
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 01:31:16 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
eye and said :
>Sky Rider wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:53:06 GMT, Thom Madura
>> <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
>> eye and said :
>>>Sky Rider wrote:
<snip>
>>>Based on the prophecy - V chose Harry to be the one "marked" - so it is
>>>ONLY harry that can do it.
>> Not so. As you said... only Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark
>> Lord... but that *doesn't* mean he himself has to wield it as a weapon
>> directly against Voldie!
>I think it does. I cannot see how anyone else can use the power ONLY
>Harry has.
>> We know from Dumbledore comments that 'love' is the key to Harry's
>> power.
>I am not sure that is the case this time.
>The "love" that killed Quirrel in the first book no longer effects V -
>because he used Harry's blood to return and can touch Harry without
>problems.
>The "love" that saved Harry the first time actually turned out to be an
>ancient magic that both Dumbledore and V didn't think about right away.
>
>WHile I do believe that "love" will have some place - there are an awful
>lot of other things involved that will help too. I also believe that
>Snape will help Harry too - but it will still be Harry who vanquishes V.
Remember tho that it was 'love' that saved him when Voldie possessed
him in the MoM at the end of OoP!! His feelings for Sirius drove
Voldie out.
>>Suppose (which is all we can do for a few months) that
>> Voldemort *does* kill Harry. Now then... Harry is well loved by all
>> his friends... if one or all of them act together to kill Voldie in
>> revenge... well he is still dead... and so is Harry... *but* the power
>> that killed Voldemort was still generated by Harry... see the point?
>I do not agree - The Prophecy is specific enough for me to say that
>Harry will do it - he may have help - but that is all the others will do.
That's the problem tho... the prophecy *isn't* specific... prophecies
rarely are .:)
--
Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
http://www.australianopinion.com
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302785 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 01:03 |
|
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 01:06:37 -0400, Toon <toon [at] toon.com> looked at Ron
with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
>On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:28:18 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
>wrote:
>>On 18 Jul 2006 13:28:32 -0700, "BriD" <bethbriuk [at] yahoo.co.uk> looked
>>at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
>>>Sky Rider wrote:
<snip>
>>As you (and John Lennon) say... love is the answer. The problem is how
>>to use it. Love isn't a weapon... it's a defence.
>The room's full of fluffy pink wabbits. Their cuteness and wiggling
>noses will prove too much for V to bear, and his heart will give out
>in self defense.
Sounds like Dolores might yet have a part to play!! :)
<shudder>
--
Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
http://www.australianopinion.com
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302796 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 02:21 |
|
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 03:31:31 -0400, Toon <toon [at] toon.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 03:21:07 GMT, gjw <gjw [at] example.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>Of course, now that we know about the horcruxes, how could the blood
>>'transfusion' at the graveyard have made Voldemort vulnerable to
>>Harry?
>>
>
>Transfered his Soul Bit back into V, and now there's one less Horcrux,
>and nobody has to expect Harry to die to destroy his scar.
I've thought of the same thing. That would allow to Voldemort make
the mistake of assuming he was still indestructible (since he would
think he had one horcrux left, in Harry), and thus take chances he
wouldn't otherwise take.
However, it DOES sound a little cheesy to me to have the soul bit
transferred back into Voldemort simply because a few drops of blood
were taken from Harry. But then again, the idea of horcrux and soul
bits sounds a little cheesy to me, so I wouldn't be completely
surprised if she went that route...
LV: Go ahead, punk. Take your best shot. As long as I have one
horcrux left, I can't be killed. And you won't believe where the last
one is..."
ZAP!!!!!
L.V. "Oh, damn... Forgot about that blood thing... Just like I
forgot about that maternal protection thing. I really should have
stayed awake in my classes at Hogwarts. Well, bye..."
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302797 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 02:31 |
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Sky Rider wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 01:31:16 GMT, Thom Madura
> <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
> eye and said :
>
>>Sky Rider wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:53:06 GMT, Thom Madura
>>><Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
>>>eye and said :
>>>
>>>>Sky Rider wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>>>>Based on the prophecy - V chose Harry to be the one "marked" - so it is
>>>>ONLY harry that can do it.
>
>
>
>>>Not so. As you said... only Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark
>>>Lord... but that *doesn't* mean he himself has to wield it as a weapon
>>>directly against Voldie!
>
>
>>I think it does. I cannot see how anyone else can use the power ONLY
>>Harry has.
>
>
>
>>>We know from Dumbledore comments that 'love' is the key to Harry's
>>>power.
>
>
>>I am not sure that is the case this time.
>
>
>>The "love" that killed Quirrel in the first book no longer effects V -
>>because he used Harry's blood to return and can touch Harry without
>>problems.
>
>
>>The "love" that saved Harry the first time actually turned out to be an
>>ancient magic that both Dumbledore and V didn't think about right away.
>>
>>WHile I do believe that "love" will have some place - there are an awful
>>lot of other things involved that will help too. I also believe that
>>Snape will help Harry too - but it will still be Harry who vanquishes V.
>
>
> Remember tho that it was 'love' that saved him when Voldie possessed
> him in the MoM at the end of OoP!! His feelings for Sirius drove
> Voldie out.
>
>
>>>Suppose (which is all we can do for a few months) that
>>>Voldemort *does* kill Harry. Now then... Harry is well loved by all
>>>his friends... if one or all of them act together to kill Voldie in
>>>revenge... well he is still dead... and so is Harry... *but* the power
>>>that killed Voldemort was still generated by Harry... see the point?
>
>
>>I do not agree - The Prophecy is specific enough for me to say that
>>Harry will do it - he may have help - but that is all the others will do.
>
>
> That's the problem tho... the prophecy *isn't* specific... prophecies
> rarely are .:)
What do you want the prophecy to say - that Harry is the only one
written out is plain American? It says that.
Harry is the ONE V marked as his equal.
Harry is the ONE who has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord.
THe prophecy could not be more specific.
ONLY the person V marks as his equal (WHich would be Harry - as
Dumbledore pointed out specifically) has the power to vanquish the dark
lord.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302802 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 03:27 |
|
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 00:31:26 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
eye and said :
>Sky Rider wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 01:31:16 GMT, Thom Madura
>> <Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
>> eye and said :
>>>Sky Rider wrote:
>>>>On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:53:06 GMT, Thom Madura
>>>><Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> looked at Ron with an evil Grint in his
>>>>eye and said :
>>>>>Sky Rider wrote:
<snip>
>> That's the problem tho... the prophecy *isn't* specific... prophecies
>> rarely are .:)
>What do you want the prophecy to say - that Harry is the only one
>written out is plain American? It says that.
Nope.
>Harry is the ONE V marked as his equal.
>Harry is the ONE who has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord.
>THe prophecy could not be more specific.
Of course it could... it says he has the power... doesn't say what
that power is, how it is to be used or *who* actually uses it...
.... we assume since Harry has 'the power' that he will use it... will
be *able* to use it... but we are making assumptions that can't be
upheld yet.
As I've said before, in the battle in the MoM... with all the heated
emotion surrounding the loss of Sirius Harry was barely able to slow
Bellatrix up yet we're expecting him to destroy the greatest wizard
ever??
>ONLY the person V marks as his equal (WHich would be Harry - as
>Dumbledore pointed out specifically) has the power to vanquish the dark
>lord.
Dumbledore said explicitly that 'love' is the weapon... but how 'love'
will manifest itself as a weapon is not at all clear.
On off days I wonder if Harry will somehow find a way to enter
Voldemorts mind the way Voldie enters his and does something terminal
whilst he's there? :)
--
Where real Aussies go to tell it like it is!
http://www.australianopinion.com
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302815 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 06:24 |
|
Toon escribió:
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:45:01 -0500, drusilla <me [at] me.net> wrote:
>
>> So, if I AK Harry, he won't die? For some reason, JO hasn't show us till
>> now what would happen if Harry gets the Killing Curse - aside the night
>> his parents die -. We didn't know the curse from book I to III, LV
>> didn't AK him in Goblet of Fire, DD saved Harry from that spell in OotO,
>> no big fight in HBP. NOw, obviously Harry can't be hit with it if he is
>> vulnerable because he dies and book's over, but if he is in fact
>> immortal and invulnerable to that curse, Jo's waiting that bit for book 7.
>
> But who would try it?
Lucius, Bellatrix..?
> The story goes V AK's the Potters, then AK's
> Harry. Somehow Harry lives and V dies. Now, V's the most powerful
> dude around to the D E's. He even died AKing Harry, who lived. How
> soon will you try to AK the kid who survived it once before? Fully
> knowing the last guy who tried it, a better wizard than you, died?
OK, I accept that, but, I don't doubt that many DE would like to try
and/or die trying. IICR, in the OotP final fight, Bellatrix did want to
hurt them, but Lucius stopped her. They could have had their orders,
but, that wouldn't stop the average DE.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302826 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 09:37 |
|
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 23:24:30 -0500, drusilla <me [at] me.net> wrote:
>Toon escribió:
>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:45:01 -0500, drusilla <me [at] me.net> wrote:
>>
>>> So, if I AK Harry, he won't die? For some reason, JO hasn't show us till
>>> now what would happen if Harry gets the Killing Curse - aside the night
>>> his parents die -. We didn't know the curse from book I to III, LV
>>> didn't AK him in Goblet of Fire, DD saved Harry from that spell in OotO,
>>> no big fight in HBP. NOw, obviously Harry can't be hit with it if he is
>>> vulnerable because he dies and book's over, but if he is in fact
>>> immortal and invulnerable to that curse, Jo's waiting that bit for book 7.
>>
>> But who would try it?
>
>Lucius, Bellatrix..?
>
>> The story goes V AK's the Potters, then AK's
>> Harry. Somehow Harry lives and V dies. Now, V's the most powerful
>> dude around to the D E's. He even died AKing Harry, who lived. How
>> soon will you try to AK the kid who survived it once before? Fully
>> knowing the last guy who tried it, a better wizard than you, died?
>
>OK, I accept that, but, I don't doubt that many DE would like to try
>and/or die trying. IICR, in the OotP final fight, Bellatrix did want to
>hurt them, but Lucius stopped her. They could have had their orders,
>but, that wouldn't stop the average DE.
Hurt or kill? Big difference. Notice Harry's instinctual reaction to
Bellatrix killing Sirius was to hurt, not kill. Even then it was a
half hearted attempt (Yet another reason to ban HP. Don't want kids
to learn to seek to sort of hurt instead of kill. Naturally we
eliminate the need to hurt next.)
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302827 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 09:38 |
|
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:03:47 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 01:06:37 -0400, Toon <toon [at] toon.com> looked at Ron
>with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
>>On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:28:18 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
>>wrote:
>>>On 18 Jul 2006 13:28:32 -0700, "BriD" <bethbriuk [at] yahoo.co.uk> looked
>>>at Ron with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
>>>>Sky Rider wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>>As you (and John Lennon) say... love is the answer. The problem is how
>>>to use it. Love isn't a weapon... it's a defence.
>
>>The room's full of fluffy pink wabbits. Their cuteness and wiggling
>>noses will prove too much for V to bear, and his heart will give out
>>in self defense.
>
>Sounds like Dolores might yet have a part to play!! :)
>
><shudder>
Well, if she does, yay! Anything that helps defeat Voldemort.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302828 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 09:43 |
|
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 00:21:32 GMT, gjw <gjw [at] example.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 03:31:31 -0400, Toon <toon [at] toon.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 03:21:07 GMT, gjw <gjw [at] example.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Of course, now that we know about the horcruxes, how could the blood
>>>'transfusion' at the graveyard have made Voldemort vulnerable to
>>>Harry?
>>>
>>
>>Transfered his Soul Bit back into V, and now there's one less Horcrux,
>>and nobody has to expect Harry to die to destroy his scar.
>
>I've thought of the same thing. That would allow to Voldemort make
>the mistake of assuming he was still indestructible (since he would
>think he had one horcrux left, in Harry), and thus take chances he
>wouldn't otherwise take.
>
>However, it DOES sound a little cheesy to me to have the soul bit
>transferred back into Voldemort simply because a few drops of blood
>were taken from Harry. But then again, the idea of horcrux and soul
>bits sounds a little cheesy to me, so I wouldn't be completely
>surprised if she went that route...
I know. I expect more than a return of the soul. More like a direct
link. Kill one, kill yourself.
>
> LV: Go ahead, punk. Take your best shot. As long as I have one
>horcrux left, I can't be killed. And you won't believe where the last
>one is..."
Harry: Oh no. Maybe you removed it from the equation already. You're
thinking now, "have 6 of my horcruxes been destroyed, or seven?" Well,
you gotta ask yourself one thing, "Do you feel lucky, punk?"
A scene from the final climatic battle from Dirty Harry Potter.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302829 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 09:45 |
|
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:00:36 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
wrote:
>That's the problem tho... the prophecy *isn't* specific... prophecies
>rarely are .:)
And DD doesn't put much stock in them. Yet for the past 17 years,
he's been betting the future of wizardom on this prophecy. One he
doesn't see as having to be binding unless both players make it so.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302830 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 09:50 |
|
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:27:25 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
wrote:
>>Harry is the ONE V marked as his equal.
>>Harry is the ONE who has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord.
>
>>THe prophecy could not be more specific.
>
>Of course it could... it says he has the power... doesn't say what
>that power is, how it is to be used or *who* actually uses it...
Yes it does. Either must die at the hand of the other.
>... we assume since Harry has 'the power' that he will use it... will
>be *able* to use it... but we are making assumptions that can't be
>upheld yet.
Such as Harry wins. But is it a win if he dies?
>As I've said before, in the battle in the MoM... with all the heated
>emotion surrounding the loss of Sirius Harry was barely able to slow
>Bellatrix up yet we're expecting him to destroy the greatest wizard
>ever??
Sure. He won't be caught up in blind rage during the final battle.
he'll have an opponent convinced most of his horcruxes are still
functioning. And the guy's convinced he's far superior to a mere boy.
All things in Harry's favor.
>Dumbledore said explicitly that 'love' is the weapon... but how 'love'
>will manifest itself as a weapon is not at all clear.
Successfully. Via Harry. It's all about Harry. That's what JK said.
That's why it's called Harry Potter And The for 7 books.
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302838 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 11:05 |
|
Toon wrote:
> Dirty Harry Potter.
AVADA KEDAVRA!
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| Re: On the subject of Voldies death [message #302842 ] |
Thu, 20 July 2006 13:05 |
|
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 03:50:05 -0400, Toon <toon [at] toon.com> looked at Ron
with an evil Grint in his eye and said :
>On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:27:25 +1000, Sky Rider <home [at] therange.com>
>wrote:
<snip>
>That's why it's called Harry Potter And The for 7 books.
So that means "Gone With The Wind" is a story about meteorology??
And "Uncle Tom's Cabin" is a story about woodworking or housekeeping??
:)
--
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http://www.australianopinion.com
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