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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim
Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim [message #291713] Mo, 26 Juni 2006 19:15
burnsdavidj  
Long time lurker, first time poster...

I'm rereading The Silmarillion for my third time, taking a much more
concious effort to identify literary allusions and linguistic
inheritance buried within the text. Fortunately since my last reading a
few years ago, I've picked up an appreciated of Wagner, and couldn't
help but notice the similarity in both temperance and names for two
respective dwarves: M=EEm in the Simarillion, and Albrecht's brother
Mime in Siegfreid.

Could anyone in this group help expand on this potential relationship?
A quick GIS didn't reveal much discussion on this coincidence in the
past. In particular I'm wondering if Tolkien conciously inherited the
character's name from Wagner, or (more likely) was looking at an older
common source.

While we're at it, is there ~ANY~ direct inspiration from The Ring
Cycle found in Tolkien's writings? I haven't found any overt reference
to date, but I have not been very deliberate in my search until
recently.
Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim [message #291726 ] Di, 27 Juni 2006 04:49
OMeallyMD  
burnsdavidj [at] yahoo.com wrote:

In particular I'm wondering if Tolkien conciously inherited the
> character's name from Wagner, or (more likely) was looking at an older
> common source.

As you said yourself, I think the latter is more likely.

>
> While we're at it, is there ~ANY~ direct inspiration from The Ring
> Cycle found in Tolkien's writings? I haven't found any overt reference
> to date, but I have not been very deliberate in my search until
> recently.

"Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases."
_Letters_ #229 p306

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim [message #291727 ] Di, 27 Juni 2006 05:10
Count Menelvagor  
Bill O'Meally wrote:
> burnsdavidj [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> In particular I'm wondering if Tolkien conciously inherited the
> > character's name from Wagner, or (more likely) was looking at an older
> > common source.
>
> As you said yourself, I think the latter is more likely.
>
> >
> > While we're at it, is there ~ANY~ direct inspiration from The Ring
> > Cycle found in Tolkien's writings? I haven't found any overt reference
> > to date, but I have not been very deliberate in my search until
> > recently.
>
> "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases."
> _Letters_ #229 p306

it's true that tolkien said that, but is he correct?

it seems to me there's something to be said for the view that they had
quite a bit more in common than that. both of them corrupt their users
with lust for power, for example. (this may be an instance of the fact
that tolkien isn't always right.)
Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim [message #291736 ] Di, 27 Juni 2006 14:36
bredband.net  
"Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:H01og.10933$566.2534 [at] tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> burnsdavidj [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> In particular I'm wondering if Tolkien conciously inherited the
>> character's name from Wagner, or (more likely) was looking at an older
>> common source.
>
> As you said yourself, I think the latter is more likely.

In fact, we know it to be so. The dwarf Mime (or Mimer in Old Norse
mythology) exists in the "Nibelungenlied", and prior to that in Germanic
mythology all over the place.

>> While we're at it, is there ~ANY~ direct inspiration from The Ring
>> Cycle found in Tolkien's writings? I haven't found any overt reference
>> to date, but I have not been very deliberate in my search until
>> recently.
>
> "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases."
> _Letters_ #229 p306

Yes, but as Menelvagor points out, Tolkien may not have liked to concede
similarities between Wagner's Ring Cycle and LotR.

Öjevind
Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim [message #291737 ] Di, 27 Juni 2006 14:56
burnsdavidj  
Bill O'Meally wrote:

> > While we're at it, is there ~ANY~ direct inspiration from The Ring
> > Cycle found in Tolkien's writings? I haven't found any overt reference
> > to date, but I have not been very deliberate in my search until
> > recently.
>
> "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases."
> _Letters_ #229 p306

As a wise professor once taught me, trust the art not the artist. ;)

He might not be willing to concede the similarities, especially if they
were accidental. However I think the quote does provide strong evidence
that Tolkien, if anything, deliberately tried not to inherit or mimick
The Ring Cycle in any way.

Mimer = Mim and Mime in their respective works... that's a good enough
explanation for me (for the time being).

Now we just have to figure out who Albrecht is in LOTR... ;)
Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim [message #291764 ] Di, 27 Juni 2006 23:07
Count Menelvagor  
burnsdavidj [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Bill O'Meally wrote:
>

> Mimer = Mim and Mime in their respective works... that's a good enough
> explanation for me (for the time being).
>
> Now we just have to figure out who Albrecht is in LOTR... ;)

there used to be a guy who posted here under the monicker "alberich the
nibelung." the recent invasion of oldbies makes em wonder what
happened to him.

alberich is plainly the talking fox.
Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #293224 ] Fr, 30 Juni 2006 00:23
TT Arvind  
Wes =F0u =D6jevind L=E5ng hal!
> "Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD [at] wise.rr.com> skrev i meddelandet=20
> news:H01og.10933$566.2534 [at] tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > burnsdavidj [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > In particular I'm wondering if Tolkien conciously inherited the
> >> character's name from Wagner, or (more likely) was looking at an older
> >> common source.
> >
> > As you said yourself, I think the latter is more likely.
>=20
> In fact, we know it to be so. The dwarf Mime (or Mimer in Old Norse=20
> mythology) exists in the "Nibelungenlied", and prior to that in Germanic=
=20
> mythology all over the place.

And it becomes even more likely when we consider that nearly all of=20
Tolkien's Dwarf names were taken from Old Norse. =20

Actually, this has got me interested. Most of Tolkien's dwarf names=20
come from the Voluspa (Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Dain, Dori, Durin, Dwalin,=20
Fili, Frar, Fundin, Gloin, Kili, Loni, Nain, Nali, Nar, Nori, Oin, Ori,=20
Thorin, Thrain[1], and Thror), but several which do not. Of these, I=20
think we can safely rule out a Norse inspiration for Azaghal, Gamil=20
Zirak, Ibun, Khim and Telchar. Of the others, I can trace:=20

- Dis (one a group of goddesses - the Disir - mentioned in the=20
Grimnismal and elsewhere),=20
- Gimli (a hall roofed with gold in Asgard mentioned in the Voluspa)
- Mim (Mimir, one of the =C6sir who subsequently became a disembodied=20
head, and also substituted for Regin as the foster-father of=20
Sigurd/Siegfried in some sagas as discussed above in this thread)
- Narvi (Narfi, son of Loki who was either turned into a wolf or=20
disembowelled depending on whether you believe the Lokasenna or=20
Snorri).=20

That leaves Balin, Borin, Floi, Frerin, Fror, Groin (not one of=20
Tolkien's best-formulated names, I must say) and Gror. Does anyone=20
know of any Old Norse texts where these names occur? There was a=20
knight called Sir Balin in one of the mediaeval Grail cycles, but=20
Norman French doesn't quite qualify as Old Norse.


[1] There is also a character called Thrain in the Hromundar saga,=20
which establishes beyond all doubt that there WERE two Thrains!

--
Arvind

sraot=E1 g=E9ush=E9ish vahisht=E1 Listen, with your ears, to the best,
ava=E9nat=E9 s=FAc=E1 manangh=E1 ponder, with enlightened mind:
=E1varen=E5 v=EDcithahy=E1 which path shall you choose=20
nar=E9m nar=E9m xvaxy=E1i tanuy=E9 each of you, for yourself?
- The Ahunavaiti Gatha
Re: Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #293225 ] Fr, 30 Juni 2006 00:30
bredband.net  
"TT Arvind" <ttarvind [at] hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:MPG.1f0e633153639819989cfa [at] news.individual.net...

[snip]

>And it becomes even more likely when we consider that nearly all of
Tolkien's Dwarf names were taken from Old Norse.

>Actually, this has got me interested. Most of Tolkien's dwarf names
come from the Voluspa (Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Dain, Dori, Durin, Dwalin,
Fili, Frar, Fundin, Gloin, Kili, Loni, Nain, Nali, Nar, Nori, Oin, Ori,
Thorin, Thrain[1], and Thror), but several which do not. Of these, I
think we can safely rule out a Norse inspiration for Azaghal, Gamil
Zirak, Ibun, Khim and Telchar. Of the others, I can trace:

>- Dis (one a group of goddesses - the Disir - mentioned in the
Grimnismal and elsewhere),
- Gimli (a hall roofed with gold in Asgard mentioned in the Voluspa)
- Mim (Mimir, one of the Ćsir who subsequently became a disembodied
head, and also substituted for Regin as the foster-father of
Sigurd/Siegfried in some sagas as discussed above in this thread)
- Narvi (Narfi, son of Loki who was either turned into a wolf or
disembowelled depending on whether you believe the Lokasenna or
Snorri).

>That leaves Balin, Borin, Floi, Frerin, Fror, Groin (not one of
Tolkien's best-formulated names, I must say) and Gror. Does anyone
know of any Old Norse texts where these names occur? There was a
knight called Sir Balin in one of the mediaeval Grail cycles, but
Norman French doesn't quite qualify as Old Norse.


>[1] There is also a character called Thrain in the Hromundar saga,
which establishes beyond all doubt that there WERE two Thrains!

To that can be added Gandalf, which in the Elder Edda is the name of a
*dwarf*. To increase the confusion, the name means "the Elf of the magic
wand".

Öjevind
Re: Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #293580 ] Fr, 30 Juni 2006 12:44
Tamf Moo  
Öjevind Lĺng wrote:

* Arvind
>> And it becomes even more likely when we consider that nearly all of
>> Tolkien's Dwarf names were taken from Old Norse.

{munch}

> To that can be added Gandalf, which in the Elder Edda is the name of a
> *dwarf*. To increase the confusion, the name means "the Elf of the magic
> wand".

middle-earth's equivalent of a cross-dresser?

tamf
Re: Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #293581 ] Fr, 30 Juni 2006 12:44
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:4gj2jfF1mud84U1 [at] individual.net>
"Öjevind Lĺng" <bredband.net [at] ojevind.lang> enriched us with:
>
> "TT Arvind" <ttarvind [at] hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:MPG.1f0e633153639819989cfa [at] news.individual.net...
>>
>> And it becomes even more likely when we consider that nearly
>> all of Tolkien's Dwarf names were taken from Old Norse.
>>
>> Actually, this has got me interested. Most of Tolkien's dwarf
>> names come from the Voluspa (Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Dain, Dori,
>> Durin, Dwalin, Fili, Frar, Fundin, Gloin, Kili, Loni, Nain,
>> Nali, Nar, Nori, Oin, Ori, Thorin, Thrain[1], and Thror),

And Oakenshield as well ;)

>> but several which do not. Of these, I think we can safely
>> rule out a Norse inspiration for Azaghal, Gamil Zirak, Ibun,
>> Khim and Telchar.

Aye. I think that we should only expect such for Durin's people; or,
to be more exact, even: only of those Dwarves who belonged to the
people who lived in Eriabor. Basically it is the tongue of the Men of
Dale (and surroundings) that is portrayed with an Old Norse
background (reflected by the Old English of the Rohirrim who
originated from that same area), and is that human language which
these Dwarves adopted in the way costumary to Dwarves.

>> Of the others, I can trace:
<Dís, Gimli, Mîm and Narvi>
>> That leaves Balin, Borin,

Borin (borinn) appears to be Old Norse for 'born' ("Baldrs bróđir var
of borinn snemma" in the Völuspá is translated into "Baldurs brother
was born early"[1]).

And one of the Völuspá dwarfs is called Buri.

>> Floi, Frerin, Fror,

We have Frár in the Völuspá, and the others also ressonates very well
with the lists of dwarfs in Völuspá, even if they don't appear there.

Others can probably tell if these are actual words in Old Norse, or
if they're made up by Tolkien to match the sound of the other names.

>> Groin (not one of Tolkien's best-formulated names, I must say)

The word actually does appear in the Völuspá meaning grow or growth
(as far as I can tell).

>> and Gror.

It's the modern Danish word for 'grows' (mostly used for plants), but
I'm not sure about Old Norse.

>> Does anyone know of any Old Norse texts where these names occur?

There are a lot of good links in the Wikipedia article on Old Norse:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse>

I haven't had time to look through them all, and in at least one of
them, the search page seems unreachable right now -- of course :-(

>> There was a knight called Sir Balin in one of the mediaeval Grail
>> cycles, but Norman French doesn't quite qualify as Old Norse.

Almost, though ;)

>> [1] There is also a character called Thrain in the Hromundar saga,
>> which establishes beyond all doubt that there WERE two Thrains!

LOL!

> To that can be added Gandalf, which in the Elder Edda is the name
> of a *dwarf*. To increase the confusion, the name means "the Elf
> of the magic wand".

Well, Álfr (Elf) is mentioned also as one of the dwarfs of Dwalin's
line -- possibly, to our ancestors, the elfs were a kind of dwarfs?

I'm not really so familiar with the role of the elfs in Norse
Mythology, other than the appearance in the names of dwarfs in
Völuspá: Álfr, Gandalfr, Vindalfr (Wind-elf), and a later stanza
starts "Hvat er međ ásum? Hvat er međ álfum?" asking "What of the
gods? What of the elves?" (Auden's translation [2]).

[1] <http://www.tjatsi.fo/?side=f107a1056972d6d3ce4a753aae201881>
[2] <http://members.iquest.net/~chaviland/Voluspa.htm>

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded
gold, it would be a merrier world.
- Thorin Oakenshield, /The Hobbit/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Re: Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #295303 ] Fr, 30 Juni 2006 19:55
bredband.net  
"Troels Forchhammer" <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
news:Xns97F293E4E9323T.Forch [at] 131.228.6.99...

[snip]

>> To that can be added Gandalf, which in the Elder Edda is the name
>> of a *dwarf*. To increase the confusion, the name means "the Elf
>> of the magic wand".
>
> Well, Álfr (Elf) is mentioned also as one of the dwarfs of Dwalin's
> line -- possibly, to our ancestors, the elfs were a kind of dwarfs?

It's true that they did not always keep us such a strong division between
different kinds of supernatureal beings. A giant was always huge, but
treolsl came in all kidns of shapes, including beautiful but dangerous
troll-women, and it wouldn't be surprising if the Norsemen also had
differing opinions about what the Elves were.

Öjevind
Re: Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #295308 ] Sa, 01 Juli 2006 02:09
Christopher Kreuzer  
Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

> Well, Álfr (Elf) is mentioned also as one of the dwarfs of Dwalin's
> line -- possibly, to our ancestors, the elfs were a kind of dwarfs?

This essay by Tom Shippey might be of interest. It's from that online
edition of the first volume of Tolkien Studies. I did post a link some
time ago, so apologies if anyone remembers seeing it before:

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/tolkien_studies/v001/1.1shippey.htm l

Shippey talks about the various flavours of elf and other beings
mentioned in the Prose Edda. And he also highlights a link with dwarves:

"But everywhere else in Snorri's work, it is clear that when he says
"black-elves" (svartálfar), he means "dwarves": Odin sends Skirnir í
Svartálfaheim til dverga nokkurra, "to the home of the black-elves to
certain dwarfs," and Loki too goes into Svartálfaheim where he too
"comes across a dwarf."..."

This seems relevant to what's being discussed here, but Shippey's whole
argument in that paper is about something more - as far as I can make
out (and it took me several re-readings to begin to think I was
understanding it), Tolkien's creation of different types of Elves may
have been in response to this sort of tantalising gap in our knowledge
of what our ancestors meant by these terms, and other terms that have
not descended to us. In other words, Tolkien's mythology could be seen
as filling in the lost history of the words for elf (and dwarf). A
stunning if rather basic concept that, once glimpsed, seems to remain on
the edge of vision, frustratingly just out of reach whenever I try to
put it into words!

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #295313 ] Sa, 01 Juli 2006 03:39
OMeallyMD  
Öjevind Lĺng wrote:

> To that can be added Gandalf, which in the Elder Edda is the name of a
> *dwarf*. To increase the confusion, the name means "the Elf of the
> magic wand".

There's also Shadowfax. I think the name appears in Voluspa.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Re: Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #295314 ] Sa, 01 Juli 2006 04:00
Count Menelvagor  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> This seems relevant to what's being discussed here, but Shippey's whole
> argument in that paper is about something more - as far as I can make
> out (and it took me several re-readings to begin to think I was
> understanding it), Tolkien's creation of different types of Elves may
> have been in response to this sort of tantalising gap in our knowledge
> of what our ancestors meant by these terms, and other terms that have
> not descended to us. In other words, Tolkien's mythology could be seen
> as filling in the lost history of the words for elf (and dwarf). A
> stunning if rather basic concept that, once glimpsed, seems to remain on
> the edge of vision, frustratingly just out of reach whenever I try to
> put it into words!

isn't that a large art of what tolkien is doing in the LOTR and
silmarillion (and even, for that matter, in a non-middle-earth work
like Farmer Giles): piecing together a lost world from the remaining
fragments?

sometimes he does this in a humorous way, as in FG and, for example, in
the "original" of the "hey diddle diddle" song. but in other places
(both scholarship and "fiction") the idea is very serious. (doesn't
john garth talk about this? must re-read that some day.)
Re: Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #295322 ] Sa, 01 Juli 2006 12:49
Noh Phu Ling  
TT Arvind wrote:
There was a
> knight called Sir Balin in one of the mediaeval Grail cycles, but
> Norman French doesn't quite qualify as Old Norse.

Consider that the Norman French were originally Norse.

Pete H
Re: Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #295331 ] Sa, 01 Juli 2006 19:15
TT Arvind  
Wes =F0u =D6jevind L=E5ng hal!
>=20
> I'm not really so familiar with the role of the elfs in Norse=20
> Mythology, other than the appearance in the names of dwarfs in=20
> V=F6lusp=E1: =C1lfr, Gandalfr, Vindalfr (Wind-elf), and a later stanza=20
> starts "Hvat er me=F0 =E1sum? Hvat er me=F0 =E1lfum?" asking "What of the=
=20
> gods? What of the elves?" (Auden's translation [2]).=20

Actually, the association between the =C1lfar and =C6sir does seem to have=
=20
been deeper than that between the =C6sir and other supernatural beings. =
=20
For example, at the fest thrown by =C6gir for the =C6sir which is the=20
subject of Lokasenna, those present included both =C6sir and =C1lfar, but=
=20
no Vanir are mentioned apart from those who had already joined the=20
=C6sir. Later, when Loki is insulting Freya, he accuses her of having=20
played the whore with every =C1s and =C1lf there. =20

I have read a theory that when the "=E1lfar" were referred to, the it was=
=20
the lj=F3s=E1lfar that were meant, and that svart=E1lfar / dvergar had the=
=20
same relationship with the j=F6tnar that the lj=F3s=E1lfar had with the =C6=
sir. =20
It's an interesting theory, certainly, but there's no textual evidence=20
for it that I'm aware of.

--=20
Arvind
Re: Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #295332 ] Sa, 01 Juli 2006 19:52
TT Arvind  
Wes =F0u Troels Forchhammer hal!

> > and Gror.=20
> It's the modern Danish word for 'grows' (mostly used for plants), but=20
> I'm not sure about Old Norse.

It could also be a masculinisation of Gr=F3a, a v=F6lva who features=20
prominently in the Svipdagsm=E1l.

> Well, =C1lfr (Elf) is mentioned also as one of the dwarfs of Dwalin's=20
> line -- possibly, to our ancestors, the elfs were a kind of dwarfs?=20

As Christopher Kreuzer said, the svart=E1lfar are usually thought to be=20
the same people as the dvergar. =20

To confuse things further, the sun appears to have been harmful to=20
dwarves, possibly turning them into stone. According to the Alv=EDsm=E1l,=
=20
the sun is called "Dvalins leika" (Dwalin's betrayer). The poem itself=20
speaks of a dwarf who comes to claim Thor's daughter as his bride. =20
Thor says that he will only do so if the dwarf answers any questions he=20
may pose. Alvis answers every question, but the poem ends with Thor=20
gloating that he has tricked Alvis, for the day is now over him and the=20
sun shines in the hall. This would seem to also suggest a link with=20
the trolls of Scandinavian mythology.

--
Arvind
Re: Dwarf names in Tolkien (was Re: Wagner's Mime and Tolkien's Mim) [message #295405 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 21:35
Troels Forchhammer  
In message <news:D2jpg.94077$wl.190 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> This essay by Tom Shippey might be of interest. It's from that
> online edition of the first volume of Tolkien Studies.
[...]
> http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/tolkien_studies/v001/1.1shippey.htm l

I don't recall it, but thanks a lot. They have the whole first issue of
Tolkien Studies on-line there:

<http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/tolkien_studies/>

I'll have to print out on paper and read carefully -- good thing that
the first week of summer holiday is just a few days ahead now ;)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not
simpler.
- Albert Einstein
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