How much of a Trek fan I am

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Science Fiction » alt.startrek » How much of a Trek fan I am

How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22282]

Do, 28 April 2005 05:25

ToolPackinMama

Today, I bought the "collector's edition" of ST five, to replace my
mundane regular edition.

*ST5*

For some reason the subtitle feature wasn't working with my current
version... unless I wanted it in French.

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22283 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 05:33

Jaxtraw

ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Today, I bought the "collector's edition" of ST five, to replace my
> mundane regular edition.
>
> *ST5*
>
> For some reason the subtitle feature wasn't working with my current
> version... unless I wanted it in French.

I'm enough of a fan to wish Paramount had let Shatner go back and do a
Director's Edition, with a decent FX budget so he could make the film it was
intended to be. Okay, it has a few goofy moments it could do without, but
really what killed it was Paramount's cheapness.

Ian

--
____________________
A quality online comic strip for the discerning reader.
With shagging in it.
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
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http://www.lewdart.com

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22286 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 06:19

ToolPackinMama

Jaxtraw wrote:

> I'm enough of a fan to wish Paramount had let Shatner go back and do a
> Director's Edition, with a decent FX budget so he could make the film it was
> intended to be. Okay, it has a few goofy moments it could do without, but
> really what killed it was Paramount's cheapness.

I agree, plus in retrospect the movie really isn't THAT BAD. All things
considered he deserved his director's cut.

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22288 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 06:30

GeneK

"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:427057C2.5010508 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> Today, I bought the "collector's edition" of ST five, to replace my mundane regular
> edition.
>
> *ST5*
>
> For some reason the subtitle feature wasn't working with my current version... unless I
> wanted it in French.

ST5 has not exactly been a favorite of mine (though I've never
thought it was as bad as most other people seem to). The
Voyager and Enterprise series have caused me to look at it
differently when it rolls around on TV.

GeneK

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22290 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 06:35

ToolPackinMama

GeneK wrote:
>
> ST5 has not exactly been a favorite of mine (though I've never
> thought it was as bad as most other people seem to). The
> Voyager and Enterprise series have caused me to look at it
> differently when it rolls around on TV.

Heck yes! Compared to VOY and ENT ST5 is frikkin SHAKESPEARE, for
cryin' out loud!

IMHO...

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22292 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 09:05

Kweeg

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22296 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 09:37

Graham Kennedy

ToolPackinMama wrote:

> Today, I bought the "collector's edition" of ST five, to replace my
> mundane regular edition.
>
> *ST5*
>
> For some reason the subtitle feature wasn't working with my current
> version... unless I wanted it in French.

While it sucks in many respects, I always thought ST V had
some of the best character stuff between Kirk, Spock and
Bones in any of the movies. The campfire scene for instance
was one of the few times the movies approached the friendly
mickey-taking that we saw so often in TOS.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22297 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 10:30

Kweeg

"Graham Kennedy" <graham [at] ditl.org> wrote in message
news:xo0ce.4472$KO5.688 [at] fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
> > Today, I bought the "collector's edition" of ST five, to replace my
> > mundane regular edition.
> >
> > *ST5*
> >
> > For some reason the subtitle feature wasn't working with my current
> > version... unless I wanted it in French.
>
> While it sucks in many respects, I always thought ST V had
> some of the best character stuff between Kirk, Spock and
> Bones in any of the movies. The campfire scene for instance
> was one of the few times the movies approached the friendly
> mickey-taking that we saw so often in TOS.

That's exactly the reason I like the film, the great "Big 3" interactions.
"Jim, life is not a dream..." LOL!
--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22303 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 15:13

Robert Bernardo

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Ian wrote:

> I'm enough of a fan to wish Paramount had let Shatner go back and do a
> Director's Edition, with a decent FX budget so he could make the film it was
> intended to be. Okay, it has a few goofy moments it could do without, but
> really what killed it was Paramount's cheapness.

Well, if it's true, the people behind the Bring Back Kirk Trailer
#2 are working on redoing the special effects on Star Trek V. In one
version, they will just redo the special effects. In a second version,
they want to radically re-edit the scenes (which includes the humor
and many of the nice Kirk-Spock-McCoy moments).
I'd take the first version.

Now that is a fan-based work,
Robert Bernardo

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22304 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 15:51

Jaxtraw

"Robert Bernardo" <rbernardo [at] iglou.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.61.0504280909180.5966 [at] shell1...
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Ian wrote:
>
> > I'm enough of a fan to wish Paramount had let Shatner go back and do a
> > Director's Edition, with a decent FX budget so he could make the film it
was
> > intended to be. Okay, it has a few goofy moments it could do without,
but
> > really what killed it was Paramount's cheapness.
>
> Well, if it's true, the people behind the Bring Back Kirk Trailer
> #2 are working on redoing the special effects on Star Trek V. In one
> version, they will just redo the special effects. In a second version,
> they want to radically re-edit the scenes (which includes the humor
> and many of the nice Kirk-Spock-McCoy moments).
> I'd take the first version.
>
> Now that is a fan-based work,
> Robert Bernardo

It's really rather rude though, isn't it? Chopping about somebody else's
work to "improve" it. For instance, for me the only things that don't work
(ignoring of course the awful sfx) are Spock's rocket boots and Uhura's fan
dance. I happen to like the Kirk-Spock-McCoy stuff.

The latter simply because, yes I guess that this is ageist, she's just too
old for it by the time V was made. If she'd done that scene during the TOS
era, it would have been hot. But. Anyway, it's still too goofy really, and
rather insulting to the character. I wish they'd *included* the moment when
Kirk says, "Okay, I have a plan. Uhura, recognising as I do your years of
service as a senior bridge officer, your credentials as a language,
communications and engineering expert, and your enormous crew management
skills... I want you take your clothes off and dance naked, while we guys
sneak around and catch the bad guys". I mean really, they could have come up
with something better for an Uhura "special moment".

So I'd probably edit out far less than these fans may do- and why exactly do
they think they have they got such directorial expertise? It's easy to
deride somebody else's work- FAR more difficult to create something of your
own.

I'd like to see Shatner given the chance to realise his vision. I'm not
really thrilled at the concept of somebody else chopping his work around to
realise *theirs*.

Ian

--
____________________
A quality online comic strip for the discerning reader.
With shagging in it.
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
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http://www.lewdart.com

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22306 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 16:35

ToolPackinMama

Jaxtraw wrote:

> for me the only things that don't work
> (ignoring of course the awful sfx) are Spock's rocket boots and Uhura's fan
> dance. I happen to like the Kirk-Spock-McCoy stuff.
>
> The latter simply because, yes I guess that this is ageist, she's just too
> old for it

Come on, it was really dark. She only had to create the illusion for a
few seconds. Besides, it worked! Can't argue with success.

It's not the first time sex appeal was used as a weapon in the TOS
universe. Kirk's done it lots of times.

I'm technically too old to do that too, but I'll bet I could pull it
off. :) Men are simple creatures. ;)

> Anyway, it's still too goofy really, and
> rather insulting to the character. I wish they'd *included* the moment when
> Kirk says, "Okay, I have a plan. Uhura, recognising as I do your years of
> service as a senior bridge officer, your credentials as a language,
> communications and engineering expert, and your enormous crew management
> skills... I want you take your clothes off and dance naked, while we guys
> sneak around and catch the bad guys".

Oh, come on, it was probably Uhura's idea, the big show-off! LOL. She
probably had to talk them into it! LOL!

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22307 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 16:39

ToolPackinMama

Jaxtraw wrote:

> Kirk says, "Okay, I have a plan. Uhura... I want you take your clothes off and dance naked, while we guys
> sneak around and catch the bad guys".

Oh, yeah, and then shy, shrinking violent Uhura - Miss Everybody Look At
Me While I Sing You A Little Song - stops jumping up and down with glee
long enough to feign shocked sensibilities. Then she rushes to comply
while her comrades blanch and avert their timid eyes.

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22309 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 16:43

ToolPackinMama

RE: Uhura's ST5 "fan dance"

She'd probably always wanted to do that, just once! ROFLMAO!

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22310 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 17:48

RageForTheMachine

"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:1170p2pq8blmk26 [at] news.supernews.com...
> Jaxtraw wrote:
>
> > I'm enough of a fan to wish Paramount had let Shatner go back and do a
> > Director's Edition, with a decent FX budget so he could make the film it
was
> > intended to be. Okay, it has a few goofy moments it could do without,
but
> > really what killed it was Paramount's cheapness.
>
> I agree, plus in retrospect the movie really isn't THAT BAD. All things
> considered he deserved his director's cut.

Funny how opinions differ. I watched it again a few months ago and
was amazed at how completely awful it was. I always remembered 3 as being
the worst of the lot, but I may have to reconsider. I mean 5 was bad. Not
bad by Star Trek standards, but bad by Philippine action cinema standards.
It was like it was written by fifty people in separate rooms who didn't know
what the other people were writing. Nothing made the least bit of coherent
sense. But then again I am the guy who likes 1 so I could be wrong. But it
is unlikely.

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22311 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 18:33

ToolPackinMama

RageForTheMachine wrote:

> Funny how opinions differ. I watched it again a few months ago and
> was amazed at how completely awful it was. I always remembered 3 as being
> the worst of the lot, but I may have to reconsider. I mean 5 was bad. Not
> bad by Star Trek standards, but bad by Philippine action cinema standards.
> It was like it was written by fifty people in separate rooms who didn't know
> what the other people were writing. Nothing made the least bit of coherent
> sense. But then again I am the guy who likes 1 so I could be wrong.

Well, I hated five when I first saw it. My feelings about the various
Trek movies ebb and flow.

My favorite is still four, "the whales one". "Everybody remember where
we parked" "What does it mean, exact change?" "We're looking for
nuclear wessels" LOL

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22319 ]

Do, 28 April 2005 23:20

Benjamin Pavsner

That's what was nice about Final Frontier. That was pretty much the last
time we see what made the Kirk/Spock/McCoy thing special. Didn't see all
that much of it in VI, if anything (A good bit of that movie is with Kirk
and Bones in Klingon custody).
"Graham Kennedy" <graham [at] ditl.org> wrote in message
news:xo0ce.4472$KO5.688 [at] fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
> > Today, I bought the "collector's edition" of ST five, to replace my
> > mundane regular edition.
> >
> > *ST5*
> >
> > For some reason the subtitle feature wasn't working with my current
> > version... unless I wanted it in French.
>
> While it sucks in many respects, I always thought ST V had
> some of the best character stuff between Kirk, Spock and
> Bones in any of the movies. The campfire scene for instance
> was one of the few times the movies approached the friendly
> mickey-taking that we saw so often in TOS.
>
> --
> Graham Kennedy
>
> Creator and Author,
> Daystrom Institute Technical Library
> http://www.ditl.org
>

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22323 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 00:59

VernonT

>> Today, I bought the "collector's edition" of ST five, to replace my
>> mundane regular
>> edition.
>>
>> *ST5*
>>
>
> ST5 has not exactly been a favorite of mine (though I've never
> thought it was as bad as most other people seem to). The
> Voyager and Enterprise series have caused me to look at it
> differently when it rolls around on TV.
>
> GeneK

The best line in the movie.................
Kirk: "Excuse me.............what does 'God' need with a starship?"

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22324 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 01:47

Jaxtraw

VernonT wrote:
>>> Today, I bought the "collector's edition" of ST five, to replace my
>>> mundane regular
>>> edition.
>>>
>>> *ST5*
>>>
>>
>> ST5 has not exactly been a favorite of mine (though I've never
>> thought it was as bad as most other people seem to). The
>> Voyager and Enterprise series have caused me to look at it
>> differently when it rolls around on TV.
>>
>> GeneK
>
> The best line in the movie.................
> Kirk: "Excuse me.............what does 'God' need with a starship?"

That line's also the cause of much unfair derision of the movie and Shatner.
I've frequently seen the POV expressed that it represents Shatner's
megalomania- to write a script in which he, rather than the logical Vulcan,
was the only one to see through "God's" ruse.

But if you watch it without anti-Shatner feeling, it's clear that that isn't
the case. Spock is skeptical from the get-go of the scene. When "God" asks
for the starship, Spock and Kirk exchange a WTF? glance, and then Kirk steps
forward and asks the question- and I interpret that as Spock deferring to
his superior officer. The only one of the three who is fooled by "God" is
McCoy.

I just wish they'd written in a line or two of explanation of how "God"
contacted Sybok in the first place.

Ian

--
____________________
A quality online comic strip for the discerning reader.
With shagging in it.
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
Free daily rude toons
http://www.lewdart.com

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22325 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 01:58

GeneK

"Jaxtraw" <jaxtraw [at] nospamnobigfoot.com> wrote...
> That line's also the cause of much unfair derision of the movie and
Shatner.
> I've frequently seen the POV expressed that it represents Shatner's
> megalomania- to write a script in which he, rather than the logical
Vulcan,
> was the only one to see through "God's" ruse.
>
> But if you watch it without anti-Shatner feeling, it's clear that that
isn't
> the case. Spock is skeptical from the get-go of the scene. When "God" asks
> for the starship, Spock and Kirk exchange a WTF? glance, and then Kirk
steps
> forward and asks the question- and I interpret that as Spock deferring to
> his superior officer. The only one of the three who is fooled by "God" is
> McCoy.
>
> I just wish they'd written in a line or two of explanation of how "God"
> contacted Sybok in the first place.

I never got the impression that Spock had been fooled by "God," either.
But then I've never heard that particular POV expressed about the scene,
either.

Does Sybok actually say he's been contacted? I thought that getting to
Sha-ka-ri had just been his lifelong obsession or something.

GeneK

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22326 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 02:08

Jaxtraw

GeneK wrote:
> "Jaxtraw" <jaxtraw [at] nospamnobigfoot.com> wrote...
>> That line's also the cause of much unfair derision of the movie and
>> Shatner. I've frequently seen the POV expressed that it represents
>> Shatner's megalomania- to write a script in which he, rather than
>> the logical Vulcan, was the only one to see through "God's" ruse.
>>
>> But if you watch it without anti-Shatner feeling, it's clear that
>> that isn't the case. Spock is skeptical from the get-go of the
>> scene. When "God" asks for the starship, Spock and Kirk exchange a
>> WTF? glance, and then Kirk steps forward and asks the question- and
>> I interpret that as Spock deferring to his superior officer. The
>> only one of the three who is fooled by "God" is McCoy.
>>
>> I just wish they'd written in a line or two of explanation of how
>> "God" contacted Sybok in the first place.
>
> I never got the impression that Spock had been fooled by "God,"
> either. But then I've never heard that particular POV expressed about
> the scene, either.
>
> Does Sybok actually say he's been contacted? I thought that getting
> to Sha-ka-ri had just been his lifelong obsession or something.
>

Well, it seems to be strongly implied. God appears to be expecting him- and
I can't see any other reason Sybok would think Sha-ka-ri was inside the
Great Barrier. Maybe it is just a coincidence tho- but the film seems to
suggest that it's not.

Mind you, the Trek films are good at not explaining things. There's no
explanation for the whale-seeking-v'ger in Star Trek IV either. ;)

Ian

--
____________________
A quality online comic strip for the discerning reader.
With shagging in it.
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
Free daily rude toons
http://www.lewdart.com

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22332 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 04:34

GeneK

"Jaxtraw" <jaxtraw [at] nospamnobigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:42717a29$0$551$ed2619ec [at] ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> Well, it seems to be strongly implied. God appears to be expecting him- and
> I can't see any other reason Sybok would think Sha-ka-ri was inside the
> Great Barrier. Maybe it is just a coincidence tho- but the film seems to
> suggest that it's not.

"God" appears to be laying in wait for anyone who shows up. And
Spock also knew that Sha-ka-ri was rumored to be in the center of
the galaxy as well, I think it's a Vulcan fable.

> Mind you, the Trek films are good at not explaining things. There's no
> explanation for the whale-seeking-v'ger in Star Trek IV either. ;)

There's just speculation on that...Spock theorizes that the beings
who sent the probe had been in contact with whales and sent the
probe to investigate when it lost contact (because the whales had
been wiped out).

GeneK

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22335 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 06:01

ToolPackinMama

Jaxtraw wrote:

> But if you watch it without anti-Shatner feeling, it's clear that that isn't
> the case. Spock is skeptical from the get-go of the scene. When "God" asks
> for the starship, Spock and Kirk exchange a WTF? glance, and then Kirk steps
> forward and asks the question

It's another example of Kirk and Spock seeming to know one another's
thoughts and being of one mind, too.

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22337 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 06:02

ToolPackinMama

GeneK wrote:

> Does Sybok actually say he's been contacted?

Yes, I just watched it, and he did say something like that.

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22341 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 10:10

Graham Kennedy

Benjamin Pavsner wrote:

> That's what was nice about Final Frontier. That was pretty much the last
> time we see what made the Kirk/Spock/McCoy thing special. Didn't see all
> that much of it in VI, if anything (A good bit of that movie is with Kirk
> and Bones in Klingon custody).

"What IS it with you, anyway?"

I loved that line in ST VI. After all Kirk's years of
womanising, it was nice to see somebody finally comment
on it!

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22345 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 12:06

Jaxtraw

"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:1173cea9ch98p15 [at] news.supernews.com...
> GeneK wrote:
>
> > Does Sybok actually say he's been contacted?
>
> Yes, I just watched it, and he did say something like that.

When does he say it? What's the line?

Ian

--
____________________
A quality online comic strip for the discerning reader.
With shagging in it.
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
Free daily rude toons
http://www.lewdart.com

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22351 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 16:11

Bo Raxo

"Jaxtraw" <jaxtraw [at] nospamnobigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:4270e9a7$0$561$ed2619ec [at] ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
>
> I'd like to see Shatner given the chance to realise his vision. I'm not
> really thrilled at the concept of somebody else chopping his work around
to
> realise *theirs*.
>

Shatner *directed* the film. He had a chance to realize his vision. The
problem was a simple matter of management (not vision):

Shatner wanted the rock creature, as one example of several. Spent a bunch
of money on it, and in the end, it didn't work out. He did this with three
or four other scenes. Wasted a lot of money. Now he could have given up
some of the millions they paid him to finish one or more of these, if it was
that important to him. But in any event, he spent a whole lot of money that
didn't make it on-screen.

And apart from the fundamental story problem, and the pacing problems (the
first act especially), and completely ignoring the multiple back-story
problems, it's very bad for an action sci-fi picture to spend a lot of money
on effects that don't make it in the picture. Think of how the rock man
attacking the shuttle could have helped the last third of that movie, or
having more money to spend on the effects once they were on the planet.

Of course, the movie was based on a fundamentally stupid premise. For any
movie (or tv) drama, you should always ask yourself: what's the TV Listing
summary? You know, when they boil it down to a short paragraph in TV Guide
or any other listing. It's surprising how informative that can be: it makes
you realize that you need a central premise and you need to stick to it.

The listing summary for V would be something like: "The crew of the
Enterprise travel to the center of the Galaxy and confront God." Or
something like that, maybe worded conditionally: a powerful being that
claims to be God.

Whatever.

There's zero drama in the premise. Does anyone read that and remotely
wonder how it's going to end? Does anyone think there is any chance they'll
find out it really is God?

Not even the most devout Christian, Muslim, or anything else would think
there was any chance the ending would be that it really is God they met.
Nope.

So, no drama.

I mean, you have to have drama. The Earth could be destroyed, or the
Federation, or the Alpha Quadrant, or the whole universe, whatever. Or some
favorite character we love might die. Whatever, as long as we care about
it.

That means it isn't some planet we never saw before (Insurrection), and it
isn't some super-computer-space probe we've seen before (TMP). It isn't
detente with the Soviets...er, Klingons (TUC), it isn't whether some villain
we've seen a hundred times makes it into the Nexus (yawn), it isn't whether
somebody's non-look-alike clone takes over the Nebraska state legislature
(or other remote hinterland). It's whether the crew gets killed (TWOK), or
the entire timeline is changed (TVH, FC), or a beloved character is saved
from death (TSFS).

Let me save Paramount, and whomever does the first Battlestar Galactica
movie, some headache: pick someone or something we really care about, and
put it in peril.

Then find a classic story in literature or film: TWOK looked a lot like
submarine movies set in WWII, for example. Most of the good episodes of TNG
were obvious rip-offs of a classic novel or movie. That's a good thing to
do: a good story is a good story. Star Wars is an awful lot like a
Japanese film set in medieval times done some years earlier; hey, steal good
stuff and populate it with your own unique characters.

I don't care if it's Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, as long as you pick a
good story and write it true to your characters, it'll work.

V (TFF) completely ignored this advice, and Shatner's ego made him want to
do something completely unique. Well, it was, and unless you're this
century's Shakespeare, your completely unique story is likely to suck. This
one sucked, from it's central premise.

Bo Raxo

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22352 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 16:14

ToolPackinMama

Graham Kennedy wrote:
> Benjamin Pavsner wrote:
>
>> That's what was nice about Final Frontier. That was pretty much the last
>> time we see what made the Kirk/Spock/McCoy thing special. Didn't see all
>> that much of it in VI, if anything (A good bit of that movie is with Kirk
>> and Bones in Klingon custody).
>
>
> "What IS it with you, anyway?"
>
> I loved that line in ST VI. After all Kirk's years of
> womanising, it was nice to see somebody finally comment
> on it!

Kirk didn't do anything to encourage her. McCoy's just commenting on
how Kick gets attention without trying.

Kirk is not a womanizer. If anything, he's the exact opposite.

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22353 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 16:15

Bo Raxo

"VernonT" <hoopestv [at] silverstar.com> wrote in message
news:1172qlrr0lguca8 [at] corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> The best line in the movie.................
> Kirk: "Excuse me.............what does 'God' need with a starship?"
>

Gotta disagree. As a hard-core (translation: total geek) fan, for me the
best line is Kirk saying, "I need my pain."

It's just so perfect for the character, and Shatner's delivery was perfectly
raw and truthful.

Bo Raxo

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22356 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 16:18

ToolPackinMama

Jaxtraw wrote:
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:1173cea9ch98p15 [at] news.supernews.com...
>
>>GeneK wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Does Sybok actually say he's been contacted?
>>
>>Yes, I just watched it, and he did say something like that.
>
>
> When does he say it? What's the line?
>

I'll do what I can for you but as I mentioned in an earlier post, the
English subtitles for some reason dn't work on my current version of
ST5. I believe can locate the scene at least (unless I'm dreaming and
it isn't there). Want a French subtitle?

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22357 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 16:20

ToolPackinMama

Bo Raxo wrote:
> "VernonT" <hoopestv [at] silverstar.com> wrote in message
> news:1172qlrr0lguca8 [at] corp.supernews.com...
>
>>
>>The best line in the movie.................
>>Kirk: "Excuse me.............what does 'God' need with a starship?"
>>
>
>
> Gotta disagree. As a hard-core (translation: total geek) fan, for me the
> best line is Kirk saying, "I need my pain."
>
> It's just so perfect for the character, and Shatner's delivery was perfectly
> raw and truthful.

I concur.

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22358 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 16:55

ToolPackinMama

ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Jaxtraw wrote:
>
>> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
>> news:1173cea9ch98p15 [at] news.supernews.com...
>>
>>> GeneK wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Does Sybok actually say he's been contacted?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I just watched it, and he did say something like that.
>>
>>
>>
>> When does he say it? What's the line?
>>
>
> I'll do what I can for you but as I mentioned in an earlier post, the
> English subtitles for some reason dn't work on my current version of
> ST5. I believe can locate the scene at least (unless I'm dreaming and
> it isn't there). Want a French subtitle?
>

OK, the conversation occurs soon after Kirk's "I need my pain" remark,
in the same scene.

Kirk (to Sybok): "Wait! You know we'll never make it through the great
barrier."

Sybok: "Well, if we do, will that convince you that my vision is true?"

Kirk: "Your vision?"

Sybok (smiling): "Given to me by God. He waits for us on the other side."

(pause)

Kirk: "You ~are~ mad."

Sybok (seriously, gently): "Am I? (smiles) We'll see."

Obviously that is open to interpretation. IMHO, Sybok at least thinks
he's in communication with God directly.

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22361 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 17:49

Jaxtraw

"Bo Raxo" <invasions_r_us [at] thepentagon.removethis.com> wrote in message
news:Ggrce.1571$GQ5.846 [at] newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Jaxtraw" <jaxtraw [at] nospamnobigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:4270e9a7$0$561$ed2619ec [at] ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> >
> > I'd like to see Shatner given the chance to realise his vision. I'm not
> > really thrilled at the concept of somebody else chopping his work around
> to
> > realise *theirs*.
> >
>
> Shatner *directed* the film. He had a chance to realize his vision. The
> problem was a simple matter of management (not vision):
>
> Shatner wanted the rock creature, as one example of several. Spent a
bunch
> of money on it, and in the end, it didn't work out. He did this with
three
> or four other scenes. Wasted a lot of money. Now he could have given up
> some of the millions they paid him to finish one or more of these, if it
was
> that important to him. But in any event, he spent a whole lot of money
that
> didn't make it on-screen.

Fair enough.

> And apart from the fundamental story problem, and the pacing problems (the
> first act especially), and completely ignoring the multiple back-story
> problems, it's very bad for an action sci-fi picture to spend a lot of
money
> on effects that don't make it in the picture. Think of how the rock man
> attacking the shuttle could have helped the last third of that movie, or
> having more money to spend on the effects once they were on the planet.
>
> Of course, the movie was based on a fundamentally stupid premise. For any
> movie (or tv) drama, you should always ask yourself: what's the TV Listing
> summary? You know, when they boil it down to a short paragraph in TV
Guide
> or any other listing. It's surprising how informative that can be: it
makes
> you realize that you need a central premise and you need to stick to it.
>
> The listing summary for V would be something like: "The crew of the
> Enterprise travel to the center of the Galaxy and confront God." Or
> something like that, maybe worded conditionally: a powerful being that
> claims to be God.
>
> Whatever.
>
> There's zero drama in the premise. Does anyone read that and remotely
> wonder how it's going to end? Does anyone think there is any chance
they'll
> find out it really is God?

Of course they don't.

> Not even the most devout Christian, Muslim, or anything else would think
> there was any chance the ending would be that it really is God they met.
> Nope.
>
> So, no drama.

Not necessarily. Obviously it's not God, but there's still the question of
what "it" is. The movie fails there, because it makes no effort to explain
why this creature is inside the great barrier or what it is. But there could
be drama in going to meet God and finding out it's something else.
Super-evolved humans from the distant future who've come back in time to
help us, or something (and that would give Kirk the chance to tell them to
bog off, we want to make our own mistakes, or something). Just as we knew
"Apollo" wasn't really a God in Who Mourns For Adonais, there can still be
drama. In fact most stories are a foregone conclusion, but that doesn't mean
they fail (see below).

> I mean, you have to have drama. The Earth could be destroyed, or the
> Federation, or the Alpha Quadrant, or the whole universe, whatever. Or
some
> favorite character we love might die. Whatever, as long as we care about
> it.

But this is Trek, with its big reset button, so we know that won't happen.
If Spock dies, he'll be resurrected. If the Enterprise is destroyed, they'll
give Kirk another one (and if it's a B&B production, it was all a time
anomaly/dream or something).

> That means it isn't some planet we never saw before (Insurrection), and it
> isn't some super-computer-space probe we've seen before (TMP).

I liked the premise of that. The reveal was good. The rest of the story
isn't strong enough for a movie though, but I don't see anything wrong with
the V'Ger concept.

> It isn't
> detente with the Soviets...er, Klingons (TUC),

Generally considered the second best TOS movie...

it isn't whether some villain
> we've seen a hundred times makes it into the Nexus (yawn), it isn't
whether
> somebody's non-look-alike clone takes over the Nebraska state legislature
> (or other remote hinterland). It's whether the crew gets killed (TWOK),
or
> the entire timeline is changed (TVH, FC),

TVH is IMHO an appalling travesty of a movie, a cheap tacky TV movie with
jokes to cover the gaping holes in the plot- and a very foregone conclusion.
It contains no tension at all. Of course they'll get the whales. By the last
act, the only baddies the script can come up with is a few blokes on a boat.
It's amazing that that movie is so popular. It's completely and utterly
without tension at all. But hey who cares, "Nuclear Wessels" ho ho. FUNNY.

> or a beloved character is saved
> from death (TSFS).

And did anybody watching the movie expect anything other than that they'd
find Spock? What else, they go to Genesis, don't find him, come home again?
Greaaaaaaaat movie.

> Let me save Paramount, and whomever does the first Battlestar Galactica
> movie, some headache: pick someone or something we really care about, and
> put it in peril.
>
> Then find a classic story in literature or film: TWOK looked a lot like
> submarine movies set in WWII, for example. Most of the good episodes of
TNG
> were obvious rip-offs of a classic novel or movie. That's a good thing to
> do: a good story is a good story. Star Wars is an awful lot like a
> Japanese film set in medieval times done some years earlier; hey, steal
good
> stuff and populate it with your own unique characters.
>
> I don't care if it's Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, as long as you pick
a
> good story and write it true to your characters, it'll work.
>
> V (TFF) completely ignored this advice, and Shatner's ego made him want to
> do something completely unique. Well, it was, and unless you're this
> century's Shakespeare, your completely unique story is likely to suck.
This
> one sucked, from it's central premise.
>
>

I don't think the central premise (Godlike being) was particularly unique or
daring as it goes- the Trekiverse is bulging with godlike beings. We saw two
sets of Gods in TOS alone. What blew TFF was a poor script, too many
unanswered questions and illogicalities (though it still holds water better
than the risible TVH, with its whales that can build spaceships and
communicate with the other side of the galaxy, it's "probe" that is just a
green V'ger, it's leaps of belief (what, the probe comes in from one
direction and knocks out *all* of starfleet, what about the ships not in its
path? What? Stafleet is run from two rooms by a guy in a dress? What, Spock
suddenly realises it's whalesong? Why? The whole thing's held together with
string) and that appalling "federation council chamber" with its rows of
muppets. God I hate that movie.).

Anyway. I'd still like to see TFF as it should have been. It wasn't
Shatner's fault that the rock man looked shit. :)

Ian

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22367 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 18:37

Kweeg

"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:1174gamtk06m04c [at] news.supernews.com...
> Graham Kennedy wrote:
> > Benjamin Pavsner wrote:
> >
> >> That's what was nice about Final Frontier. That was pretty much the
last
> >> time we see what made the Kirk/Spock/McCoy thing special. Didn't see
all
> >> that much of it in VI, if anything (A good bit of that movie is with
Kirk
> >> and Bones in Klingon custody).
> >
> >
> > "What IS it with you, anyway?"
> >
> > I loved that line in ST VI. After all Kirk's years of
> > womanising, it was nice to see somebody finally comment
> > on it!
>
> Kirk didn't do anything to encourage her. McCoy's just commenting on
> how Kick gets attention without trying.
>
> Kirk is not a womanizer. If anything, he's the exact opposite.

Pisha.... {{;-/> ..... to quote Warp 11
http://www.warp11.com

Spock has got those crazy pointy ears
He only gets laid every seven years
Scotty says he's got to have more time
Checkov's in the bathroom
I think he's going blind

You know it's like this every day
Warping all around I don't know why I stay
Don't think I'll ever see the end
Scotty's drunk
Chekov's a punk
And Kirk gets laid again
--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22369 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 19:21

ToolPackinMama

Kweeg wrote:

> Scotty's drunk
> Chekov's a punk
> And Kirk gets laid again

Sorry, but Warp Eleven song lyrics are not canon. :)

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22370 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 19:22

ToolPackinMama

Kweeg wrote:

> Kirk gets laid again

Yeah, by Spock. :)

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22371 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 19:38

Kweeg

"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:1174raraifbio76 [at] news.supernews.com...
> Kweeg wrote:
>
> > Kirk gets laid again
>
> Yeah, by Spock. :)

Spock has got those crazy pointy ears
He only gets laid every seven years

--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22372 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 19:40

Kweeg

"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:1174r912u39a952 [at] news.supernews.com...
> Kweeg wrote:
>
> > Scotty's drunk
> > Chekov's a punk
> > And Kirk gets laid again
>
> Sorry, but Warp Eleven song lyrics are not canon. :)

but neither is the TMP novel you quoted earlier.......
{{:-p>
--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22377 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 19:47

Graham Kennedy

Kweeg wrote:

> Spock has got those crazy pointy ears
> He only gets laid every seven years
> Scotty says he's got to have more time
> Checkov's in the bathroom
> I think he's going blind
>
> You know it's like this every day
> Warping all around I don't know why I stay
> Don't think I'll ever see the end
> Scotty's drunk
> Chekov's a punk
> And Kirk gets laid again

Lol, I like it!

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22378 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 19:48

Graham Kennedy

Kweeg wrote:

> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:1174r912u39a952 [at] news.supernews.com...
>
>>Kweeg wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Scotty's drunk
>>>Chekov's a punk
>>>And Kirk gets laid again
>>
>>Sorry, but Warp Eleven song lyrics are not canon. :)
>
>
> but neither is the TMP novel you quoted earlier.......
> {{:-p>

I we are to count novels, we need to note little details
like Kirk's wife from the TMP novel, or the fact that he
was getting back together with Carol Marcus in ST VI.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: How much of a Trek fan I am [message #22383 ]

Fr, 29 April 2005 20:13

VernonT

>> The best line in the movie.................
>> Kirk: "Excuse me.............what does 'God' need with a starship?"
>
> That line's also the cause of much unfair derision of the movie and
> Shatner.
> I've frequently seen the POV expressed that it represents Shatner's
> megalomania- to write a script in which he, rather than the logical
> Vulcan,
> was the only one to see through "God's" ruse.
>
> But if you watch it without anti-Shatner feeling, it's clear that that
> isn't
> the case. Spock is skeptical from the get-go of the scene. When "God" asks
> for the starship, Spock and Kirk exchange a WTF? glance, and then Kirk
> steps
> forward and asks the question- and I interpret that as Spock deferring to
> his superior officer. The only one of the three who is fooled by "God" is
> McCoy.

That's how I took it as well.

>
> I just wish they'd written in a line or two of explanation of how "God"
> contacted Sybok in the first place.
>
> Ian

I'm with you there.

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