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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » LV Question about Horcruxes
LV Question about Horcruxes [message #282252] Mo, 19 Juni 2006 20:18
scenario_dave  
My son brought up a good point. When LV tried to kill HP as a baby,
did the horcrux in his body die? If so, then there is one less horcrux
for HP to kill, in addition to the diary and the ring.

If LV horcrux died in the attack, which Horcrux came back alive and how
did it decide which came back?
Re: LV Question about Horcruxes [message #282259 ] Mo, 19 Juni 2006 21:50
tbarry22  
scenario_dave wrote:
> My son brought up a good point. When LV tried to kill HP as a baby,
> did the horcrux in his body die? If so, then there is one less horcrux
> for HP to kill, in addition to the diary and the ring.
>
> If LV horcrux died in the attack, which Horcrux came back alive and how
> did it decide which came back?

No. The main part of Voldemort's soul was in his body, so he himself
is not a Horcrux. A horcrux is an object that contains a part of one's
soul, thereby anchoring the soul on earth. The main soul always
remains with the body (unless that body is destroyed; it then roams
free). The soul fragments can never be reattached (let's assume), but
they are powerful enough to keep the main soul around. When Voldemort
was vanquished, since he had six Horcruxes (we can assume, but he could
possibly have had only five), his soul remained on Earth.
Re: LV Question about Horcruxes [message #282264 ] Mo, 19 Juni 2006 22:28
scenario_dave  
tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> scenario_dave wrote:
> > My son brought up a good point. When LV tried to kill HP as a baby,
> > did the horcrux in his body die? If so, then there is one less horcrux
> > for HP to kill, in addition to the diary and the ring.
> >
> > If LV horcrux died in the attack, which Horcrux came back alive and how
> > did it decide which came back?
>
> No. The main part of Voldemort's soul was in his body, so he himself
> is not a Horcrux. A horcrux is an object that contains a part of one's
> soul, thereby anchoring the soul on earth. The main soul always
> remains with the body (unless that body is destroyed; it then roams
> free). The soul fragments can never be reattached (let's assume), but
> they are powerful enough to keep the main soul around. When Voldemort
> was vanquished, since he had six Horcruxes (we can assume, but he could
> possibly have had only five), his soul remained on Earth.

If the Horcruxes keep the body alive, what happens if the body is
completely destroyed? If someone uses the reducto spell to blast you
into a million pieces and then you burned all of the pieces with
incerio, how would the remaining Horcruxes keep the body alive? What
happens to free roaming souls? Unless Horcruxes can somehow recreate
the body, they aren't much good. Once you kill the wizards body, he
would be helpless. LV was not in his own body when he disappeared.
His followers used a potion to create another body. If his helpers can
recreate his body and attach a soul to it, he could live forever, if
they can't he might as well die. Unless of course you put the inferius
curse on them;inferius only follow the witch/wiizards orders.
Re: LV Question about Horcruxes [message #282267 ] Mo, 19 Juni 2006 23:28
Jon Clements  
scenario_dave wrote:

> tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > scenario_dave wrote:
> > > My son brought up a good point. When LV tried to kill HP as a baby,
> > > did the horcrux in his body die? If so, then there is one less horcrux
> > > for HP to kill, in addition to the diary and the ring.
> > >
> > > If LV horcrux died in the attack, which Horcrux came back alive and how
> > > did it decide which came back?
> >
> > No. The main part of Voldemort's soul was in his body, so he himself
> > is not a Horcrux. A horcrux is an object that contains a part of one's
> > soul, thereby anchoring the soul on earth. The main soul always
> > remains with the body (unless that body is destroyed; it then roams
> > free). The soul fragments can never be reattached (let's assume), but
> > they are powerful enough to keep the main soul around. When Voldemort
> > was vanquished, since he had six Horcruxes (we can assume, but he could
> > possibly have had only five), his soul remained on Earth.
>
> If the Horcruxes keep the body alive, what happens if the body is
> completely destroyed? If someone uses the reducto spell to blast you
> into a million pieces and then you burned all of the pieces with
> incerio, how would the remaining Horcruxes keep the body alive? What
> happens to free roaming souls? Unless Horcruxes can somehow recreate
> the body, they aren't much good. Once you kill the wizards body, he
> would be helpless. LV was not in his own body when he disappeared.
> His followers used a potion to create another body. If his helpers can
> recreate his body and attach a soul to it, he could live forever, if
> they can't he might as well die. Unless of course you put the inferius
> curse on them;inferius only follow the witch/wiizards orders.

Hi Dave,

Some of us have discussed this kind of thing in a thread called "Why
destroy horcruxes BEFORE LV is killed?". You might be interested in
reading that, I'd be pleased to hear any comments you wish to make.

Oh, and do you mean the imperius curse, as opposed to inferius?

Ta,

Jon.
Re: LV Question about Horcruxes [message #282282 ] Di, 20 Juni 2006 09:39
Toon  
On 19 Jun 2006 11:18:40 -0700, "scenario_dave"
<scenario_dave [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

>My son brought up a good point. When LV tried to kill HP as a baby,
>did the horcrux in his body die? If so, then there is one less horcrux
>for HP to kill, in addition to the diary and the ring.

There is no horcrux in his body. Only the Master Soul. which got
ripped out of his body and wandered the Earth until it met Quirrell.

>If LV horcrux died in the attack, which Horcrux came back alive and how
>did it decide which came back?

None of that happened. Horcruxes don't even do that. The Horcruxes
kept V's soul anchored to the Earth. all he needed was a new body,
which would have been easier if one of his any loyal and free DE's had
bothered to come looking for him. In the mean time, his Diary Horcrux
was destroyed, and he did not know it until his resurrection 2 years
later.
Re: LV Question about Horcruxes [message #282283 ] Di, 20 Juni 2006 09:41
Toon  
On 19 Jun 2006 13:28:10 -0700, "scenario_dave"
<scenario_dave [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>If the Horcruxes keep the body alive, what happens if the body is
>completely destroyed? If someone uses the reducto spell to blast you
>into a million pieces and then you burned all of the pieces with
>incerio, how would the remaining Horcruxes keep the body alive? What
>happens to free roaming souls? Unless Horcruxes can somehow recreate
>the body, they aren't much good. Once you kill the wizards body, he
>would be helpless. LV was not in his own body when he disappeared.
>His followers used a potion to create another body. If his helpers can
>recreate his body and attach a soul to it, he could live forever, if
>they can't he might as well die. Unless of course you put the inferius
>curse on them;inferius only follow the witch/wiizards orders.


They don't. The body's dead. And you're a formless mass awaiting a
new body. Tom never payed much attention to he tail end of Slughorn's
explanation.
Re: LV Question about Horcruxes [message #282286 ] Di, 20 Juni 2006 10:02
kilroy  
"scenario_dave" <scenario_dave [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1150748890.931526.166580 [at] p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> scenario_dave wrote:
>> > My son brought up a good point. When LV tried to kill HP as a baby,
>> > did the horcrux in his body die? If so, then there is one less horcrux
>> > for HP to kill, in addition to the diary and the ring.
>> >
>> > If LV horcrux died in the attack, which Horcrux came back alive and how
>> > did it decide which came back?
>>
>> No. The main part of Voldemort's soul was in his body, so he himself
>> is not a Horcrux. A horcrux is an object that contains a part of one's
>> soul, thereby anchoring the soul on earth. The main soul always
>> remains with the body (unless that body is destroyed; it then roams
>> free). The soul fragments can never be reattached (let's assume), but
>> they are powerful enough to keep the main soul around. When Voldemort
>> was vanquished, since he had six Horcruxes (we can assume, but he could
>> possibly have had only five), his soul remained on Earth.
>
> If the Horcruxes keep the body alive, what happens if the body is
> completely destroyed? If someone uses the reducto spell to blast you
> into a million pieces and then you burned all of the pieces with
> incerio, how would the remaining Horcruxes keep the body alive? What
> happens to free roaming souls? Unless Horcruxes can somehow recreate
> the body, they aren't much good. Once you kill the wizards body, he
> would be helpless. LV was not in his own body when he disappeared.
> His followers used a potion to create another body. If his helpers can
> recreate his body and attach a soul to it, he could live forever, if
> they can't he might as well die. Unless of course you put the inferius
> curse on them;inferius only follow the witch/wiizards orders.
>
I think you are still missing it a little bit. The horcruxes themselves
don't actually keep the body alive, they just keep the person's soul
anchored to the earth, keep it in the world of the living, if you will. A
simple way to look at it is that the body is just vessel that contains a
person's soul. When the body dies, the soul is released to whatever other
plane of existence exists in the Harry Potter Universe. Now, if a wizard
creates a horcrux, he has placed part of his soul in another vessel, usually
an object, and this part just holds the rest of the soul to the earth.
Because of this, the entire soul is kept earthbound, even if the person's
body dies.

In the case of Voldemort, his original body was killed when the Avada
Kedavra rebounded off of Harry and hit him, but because of the horcruxes he
had created, the main part of his soul, the part still contained in his
body, was kept earthbound. Yes, in this form, Voldemort was pretty much
helpless, requiring others to do things for him. Quirrell being the best
example prior to "Goblet of Fire". The horcruxes, themselves, could not
create a new body for the main part of Voldemort's soul, that has to be done
through magical means. So, yes, a person could be immortal, and every time
their body dies, a new body could be created for the soul, providing there
is someone around to do the proper magic to create the body.

An interesting question would be what would happen to the part of the soul
contained in a horcrux if the horcrux is destroyed? Is that fragment of the
soul destroyed along with the horcrux? or can it freely roam the earth,
providing there is a proper anchor to keep it earthbound? Chamber of
Secrets seemed to answer this because of what happened to the Tom Riddle
soul contained in the diary, but did it really? This is something that
people might debate, if they haven't already.
--
Kilroy was here.
"Jumping out of a perfectly good aircraft is not a natural act." - Clint
Eastwood
Re: LV Question about Horcruxes [message #282298 ] Di, 20 Juni 2006 17:10
zoltan47  
On 19 Jun 2006 11:18:40 -0700, "scenario_dave"
<scenario_dave [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

>My son brought up a good point. When LV tried to kill HP as a baby,
>did the horcrux in his body die? If so, then there is one less horcrux
>for HP to kill, in addition to the diary and the ring.
>
>If LV horcrux died in the attack, which Horcrux came back alive and how
>did it decide which came back?

Reread page 503 (US Edition).

First of all, Dumbledore clearly states that it was seven soul pieces
and six Horcruxes. Secondly, he also states that the seventh piece is
now in Voldemort's regenerated body and was what lived the spectral
existence all those years. This means that a Horcrux protects the
piece in the body from a fatal attack. That piece is not destroyed and
replaced by one in a Horcrux. A Horcrux seems to act as an anchor
keeping the original piece on the current plain.

If a fatal attack would destroy the original piece then the concept
that Voldemort made so many wouldn't be so monstrous. If the idea
behind making even one was to ward against death, then making only one
would have limited affect because one fatal attack would revert you to
being mortal. It would be in your best interest to make more than one
of you are going to make any. The reason Voldemort made six was
because the he saw something magical in having seven soul pieces and
because he wanted the extra protection should anything happen to one
or more of the Horcruxes.
Re: LV Question about Horcruxes [message #282308 ] Di, 20 Juni 2006 23:14
Thomas Madura  
tbarry22 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> scenario_dave wrote:
>
>>My son brought up a good point. When LV tried to kill HP as a baby,
>>did the horcrux in his body die? If so, then there is one less horcrux
>>for HP to kill, in addition to the diary and the ring.
>>
>>If LV horcrux died in the attack, which Horcrux came back alive and how
>>did it decide which came back?
>
>
> No. The main part of Voldemort's soul was in his body, so he himself
> is not a Horcrux. A horcrux is an object that contains a part of one's
> soul, thereby anchoring the soul on earth. The main soul always
> remains with the body (unless that body is destroyed; it then roams
> free). The soul fragments can never be reattached (let's assume), but
> they are powerful enough to keep the main soul around. When Voldemort
> was vanquished, since he had six Horcruxes (we can assume, but he could
> possibly have had only five), his soul remained on Earth.
>


Actually - so did his body. THe AK does not disolve that either.
Re: LV Question about Horcruxes [message #282309 ] Di, 20 Juni 2006 23:23
Thomas Madura  
zoltan47 wrote:

> On 19 Jun 2006 11:18:40 -0700, "scenario_dave"
> <scenario_dave [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>My son brought up a good point. When LV tried to kill HP as a baby,
>>did the horcrux in his body die? If so, then there is one less horcrux
>>for HP to kill, in addition to the diary and the ring.
>>
>>If LV horcrux died in the attack, which Horcrux came back alive and how
>>did it decide which came back?
>
>
> Reread page 503 (US Edition).
>
> First of all, Dumbledore clearly states that it was seven soul pieces
> and six Horcruxes. Secondly, he also states that the seventh piece is
> now in Voldemort's regenerated body and was what lived the spectral
> existence all those years. This means that a Horcrux protects the
> piece in the body from a fatal attack. That piece is not destroyed and
> replaced by one in a Horcrux. A Horcrux seems to act as an anchor
> keeping the original piece on the current plain.
>
> If a fatal attack would destroy the original piece then the concept
> that Voldemort made so many wouldn't be so monstrous. If the idea
> behind making even one was to ward against death, then making only one
> would have limited affect because one fatal attack would revert you to
> being mortal. It would be in your best interest to make more than one
> of you are going to make any. The reason Voldemort made six was
> because the he saw something magical in having seven soul pieces and
> because he wanted the extra protection should anything happen to one
> or more of the Horcruxes.


Great Post!

Only disagreement I have is with "Making one would have a limited
effect....." AS long as you have one Horcrux on Earth - your soul is
anchored to the Earth. Should you then be Attacked again - that Horcrux
- if it has not been destroyed - would continue to do that. Riddle
proposed using a total of 7 (main plus 6 fragements) because seven is a
very powerful number. My view is that he chose to have more than one as
insurance against some being destroyed. That would support DD's staement
that he does not believe that V can tell when his Horcruxes are
destroyed (Unless told by someone I would guess). If one cannot - then
you could not be sure you are protected - hence - how about a boat load.
Re: LV Question about Horcruxes [message #282323 ] Mi, 21 Juni 2006 16:27
zoltan47  
On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:23:02 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Only disagreement I have is with "Making one would have a limited
>effect....." AS long as you have one Horcrux on Earth - your soul is
>anchored to the Earth. Should you then be Attacked again - that Horcrux
>- if it has not been destroyed - would continue to do that. Riddle
>proposed using a total of 7 (main plus 6 fragements) because seven is a
>very powerful number. My view is that he chose to have more than one as
>insurance against some being destroyed. That would support DD's staement
>that he does not believe that V can tell when his Horcruxes are
>destroyed (Unless told by someone I would guess). If one cannot - then
>you could not be sure you are protected - hence - how about a boat load.

I think we're talking about the same thing. That comment was in the
context of a fatal attack using up a Horcrux. It is in that context
that making one has a limited affect because you no longer have a
Horcrux acting as an anchor.
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