Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux

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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux

Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281648]

Sa, 10 Juni 2006 06:47

Toon

Hence why Voldemort was going to let her live.

OK, finally got that out of the way. Now, for something even more
insane. . .

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281651 ]

Sa, 10 Juni 2006 09:19

Brian

Toon wrote:
> Hence why Voldemort was going to let her live.

Ehh, I know you're not entirely serious with this, but I don't buy it.
The only thing we have to go by--Harry's recollections of the event--
indicate that Voldemort was *prepared* to let her live, but it did not
seem to be a matter of great importance to him. That is a puzzle that
needs to be explained. What reason would explain why he would have let
her live, and yet he doesn't care that much if she dies?

One possibility I've come up with is that he doesn't realize that she's
Lily--she's in some kind of disguise, is a metamorphmagus, *something*.
But I can't make it fit in with anything else yet, so it's not really
satisfying.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281678 ]

Sa, 10 Juni 2006 14:20

DaveD

"Brian Tung" <brian [at] isi.edu> wrote in message
news:e6drpo$vk5$1 [at] praesepe.isi.edu...
> Toon wrote:
> > Hence why Voldemort was going to let her live.
>
> Ehh, I know you're not entirely serious with this, but I don't buy it.
> The only thing we have to go by--Harry's recollections of the event--
> indicate that Voldemort was *prepared* to let her live, but it did not
> seem to be a matter of great importance to him. That is a puzzle that
> needs to be explained. What reason would explain why he would have let
> her live, and yet he doesn't care that much if she dies?
>
> One possibility I've come up with is that he doesn't realize that she's
> Lily--she's in some kind of disguise, is a metamorphmagus, *something*.
> But I can't make it fit in with anything else yet, so it's not really
> satisfying.
>

Much too complicated, I think. Voldy had to kill Harry, so he thought,
because of the prophecy. Lilly (and possibly James) were irrelevant - Voldy
didn't have any strategic plans for their deaths (other than killing those
actively opposing him, or killing muggles to show he didn't make idle
threats). However, if they got between him and his objective - killing
Harry - then yes he'd kill them without noticing. And if he could use
Harry's mother as a living vessel for a horcrux, that might possibly have
appealed to him (perverting the mother of his possible nemesis to make her
his saviour as one of his horcruxes, might be twisted enough for him,
although I suspect the practicalities of having an adversary horcrux might
be a good reason not to - unless killing her afterwards would make her an
infieri (? those zombies) possessed by his soul fragment.

But that raises one question - presumably a horcrux doesn't need the death
of it's original maker to be activated because Riddle was activated in CoS
(when Voldy was alive, I think, if very weak and living a half-life). So if
subsequent horcruxes are activated, do you have two separate versions of the
same person now "living": Voldies 1 and 2, or possibly even Tom Riddle and
Voldy, both independent people. Could be a bit awkward and cause problems if
their personal agendas clashed!

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281682 ]

Sa, 10 Juni 2006 14:45

Lady Grey

Toon wrote:
> Hence why Voldemort was going to let her live.
>
> OK, finally got that out of the way. Now, for something even more
> insane. . .

McGONAGALL IS EVIL !!! ?

--
Jane Grey

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281683 ]

Sa, 10 Juni 2006 14:46

mmeindia

I've always wondered if the "Voldemort was prepared to let Lily live" thing
is the biggest red herring of the entire series. Why do we take Voldemort's
word on this matter? (Just because it presents some interesting
possibilities?) Maybe he just said that to get Lily out of the way
temporarily, and would have killed her immediately after killing Harry.

Or (I'm liking this idea better, but I just thought of it) maybe it was just
a test. Any mother that would have said, "Okay, take my son but save me"
would have been ripe for the Death Eaters-- he knew she was a talented witch
and could have used her in other ways.

India

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281694 ]

Sa, 10 Juni 2006 17:19

Brian

DaveD wrote:
> Much too complicated, I think.

Too complicated? It's really only one assertion--that Lily didn't
appear as herself that night. It's unconvincing--now *that* I'll grant.
I have no idea why she would do that.

> Voldy had to kill Harry, so he thought, because of the prophecy. Lilly
> (and possibly James) were irrelevant - Voldy didn't have any strategic
> plans for their deaths (other than killing those actively opposing
> him, or killing muggles to show he didn't make idle threats). However,
> if they got between him and his objective - killing Harry - then yes
> he'd kill them without noticing.

Except that he *did* notice. He told her to get out of the way. Why
would he do that for Lily but not James, when they were otherwise
inextricably linked by that time? When they had, together, "thrice
defied" him? I think it rather unlikely that he wouldn't have taken
particular pleasure in killing both of them. Instead, he noticed, but
didn't care enough not to kill her. It's that bit that I haven't seen
explained adequately.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
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My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281695 ]

Sa, 10 Juni 2006 17:21

Brian

Mme. India wrote:
> I've always wondered if the "Voldemort was prepared to let Lily live" thing
> is the biggest red herring of the entire series. Why do we take Voldemort's
> word on this matter? (Just because it presents some interesting
> possibilities?) Maybe he just said that to get Lily out of the way
> temporarily, and would have killed her immediately after killing Harry.

We don't take Voldemort's word for it; we take Rowling's word for it,
and her assertion that we learn something very important about Lily in
Book Seven. Metamorphmagus was one of my guesses as to what that is,
but as I said, I have nothing particularly compelling to adduce in favor
of that.

> Or (I'm liking this idea better, but I just thought of it) maybe it was just
> a test. Any mother that would have said, "Okay, take my son but save me"
> would have been ripe for the Death Eaters-- he knew she was a talented witch
> and could have used her in other ways.

It's possible, but similarly uncompelling.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281712 ]

Sa, 10 Juni 2006 21:27

Lady Grey

Brian Tung wrote:
> Toon wrote:
> > Hence why Voldemort was going to let her live.
>
> Ehh, I know you're not entirely serious with this, but I don't buy it.
> The only thing we have to go by--Harry's recollections of the event--
> indicate that Voldemort was *prepared* to let her live, but it did not
> seem to be a matter of great importance to him.

yes that is puzzling. I know the Treols was convinced that Lily's being
allowed to live was important to LV but that it was marginally less
important than harry's having to die. He convinced me at the time but
the impression I get from LV when he tells harry that she 'didn't have
to die' is that her life wasn't important to him. But having said that,
like you say, why would the most evil dude in potterverse let a
muggleborn live just because 'she didn't have to die'?

> That is a puzzle that
> needs to be explained. What reason would explain why he would have let
> her live, and yet he doesn't care that much if she dies?

I'm not convinced by it in the least but the only think i could think
of is that LV was attempting to honour a bargain. I mean there has to
be some reason Peter was in Gryffindor, he must have /some/ degree of
bravery and chivalry and this could have shown by attempting to bargain
with LV; the secret for sparing Lily's life. Now I know LV isn't one
for bargaining with his DEs or keeping his word but maybe the fact that
scared little Peter was asking for something surprised LV into
thinking, sure why not, makes no difference to me. LV had thought Lily
would flee upon being offered a chance to, it was only when she didn't
run that it did make a difference to him and he killed her without
regard for any bargains.

(I know that others have suggested that Snape asked LV to spare Lily
but i find this idea particulary nauseating)

--
Jane Grey

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281714 ]

Sa, 10 Juni 2006 21:40

Brian

Jane Grey wrote:
> yes that is puzzling. I know the Treols was convinced that Lily's being
> allowed to live was important to LV but that it was marginally less
> important than harry's having to die. He convinced me at the time but
> the impression I get from LV when he tells harry that she 'didn't have
> to die' is that her life wasn't important to him. But having said that,
> like you say, why would the most evil dude in potterverse let a
> muggleborn live just because 'she didn't have to die'?

There is one more thing. I think that in both recollections that Harry
has about the event (I'll have to go back and check), he hears who he
think is Voldemort laughing maniacally. If that represents actual fact,
obviously that doesn't happen after the AK backfires. I wonder what he
was laughing about. The orthodox interpretation is that he's laughing
because he's just about to kill the one person Lily cares most about.
For some reason, that just doesn't ring true. It "sounds" like the kind
of sadistic laughter that accompanies a villain's pleasant surprise.

Then again, I might just be reading more into a half-remembered scene
than is actually there. :)

> (I know that others have suggested that Snape asked LV to spare Lily
> but i find this idea particulary nauseating)

Yeah, I don't find that compelling, either.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281715 ]

Sa, 10 Juni 2006 21:47

karnak17

Jane Grey wrote:
> Brian Tung wrote:
> > Toon wrote:
> > > Hence why Voldemort was going to let her live.
> >
> > Ehh, I know you're not entirely serious with this, but I don't buy it.
> > The only thing we have to go by--Harry's recollections of the event--
> > indicate that Voldemort was *prepared* to let her live, but it did not
> > seem to be a matter of great importance to him.
>
> yes that is puzzling. I know the Treols was convinced that Lily's being
> allowed to live was important to LV but that it was marginally less
> important than harry's having to die. He convinced me at the time but
> the impression I get from LV when he tells harry that she 'didn't have
> to die' is that her life wasn't important to him. But having said that,
> like you say, why would the most evil dude in potterverse let a
> muggleborn live just because 'she didn't have to die'?
>
> > That is a puzzle that
> > needs to be explained. What reason would explain why he would have let
> > her live, and yet he doesn't care that much if she dies?
>
> I'm not convinced by it in the least but the only think i could think
> of is that LV was attempting to honour a bargain. I mean there has to
> be some reason Peter was in Gryffindor, he must have /some/ degree of
> bravery and chivalry and this could have shown by attempting to bargain
> with LV; the secret for sparing Lily's life. Now I know LV isn't one
> for bargaining with his DEs or keeping his word but maybe the fact that
> scared little Peter was asking for something surprised LV into
> thinking, sure why not, makes no difference to me. LV had thought Lily
> would flee upon being offered a chance to, it was only when she didn't
> run that it did make a difference to him and he killed her without
> regard for any bargains.
>
> (I know that others have suggested that Snape asked LV to spare Lily
> but i find this idea particulary nauseating)

I agree with your reasoning (and share your nausea). Peter might make
sense.

I'd like to point out one other thing about Snape. DD's exact words
were that Snape felt remorse "when he realized how LV had interpreted
the prophecy". NOT what use LV HAD made of the prophecy. Snape
therefore went to DD before LV killed the Potters, and it was possibly
he was the "useful spy" who gave DD the info which sent the Potters
into hiding in the first place.

If this is so, then Snape had no reason to bargain with LV, since 1) he
already believed the Potters were safe, and 2) he had already become a
double-agent and wouldn't want to blow his cover by betraying sympathy
for the enemy.

Snape asking LV to spare Lily would assume that he was privy to the
fact that Peter had snitched, and that Lily was in danger. There is no
particular reason he would have even known about this. But Peter
obviously WOULD know, and would have as much reason to be fond of Lily
as Snape would.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281730 ]

So, 11 Juni 2006 01:02

Thomas Madura

Jane Grey wrote:
> Toon wrote:
>
>>Hence why Voldemort was going to let her live.
>>
>>OK, finally got that out of the way. Now, for something even more
>>insane. . .
>
>
> McGONAGALL IS EVIL !!! ?

Harry is a Horcrux!!!! ?

(you have to admit you were expecting that)

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281741 ]

So, 11 Juni 2006 07:00

Toon

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:20:33 GMT, "DaveD"
<davedn1DELETE [at] THESEblueyonderBITS.co.uk> wrote:

>
>But that raises one question - presumably a horcrux doesn't need the death
>of it's original maker to be activated because Riddle was activated in CoS
>(when Voldy was alive, I think, if very weak and living a half-life). So if
>subsequent horcruxes are activated, do you have two separate versions of the
>same person now "living": Voldies 1 and 2, or possibly even Tom Riddle and
>Voldy, both independent people. Could be a bit awkward and cause problems if
>their personal agendas clashed!
>

I think the idea was that Voldemort would have possessed young Tom
Riddle, becoming Voldemort, but in Tom's body. Not only is he young
again (but with all his accumulated knowledge and power), but he still
has several horcruxes lying around to keep him alive. he'd probably
only create one or two more to remake his seven.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281742 ]

So, 11 Juni 2006 06:57

Toon

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:19:20 -0700 (PDT), brian [at] isi.edu (Brian Tung)
wrote:

>Toon wrote:
>> Hence why Voldemort was going to let her live.
>
>Ehh, I know you're not entirely serious with this, but I don't buy it.
>The only thing we have to go by--Harry's recollections of the event--
>indicate that Voldemort was *prepared* to let her live, but it did not
>seem to be a matter of great importance to him. That is a puzzle that
>needs to be explained. What reason would explain why he would have let
>her live, and yet he doesn't care that much if she dies?
>
>One possibility I've come up with is that he doesn't realize that she's
>Lily--she's in some kind of disguise, is a metamorphmagus, *something*.
>But I can't make it fit in with anything else yet, so it's not really
>satisfying.

Like he recalls the night to Harry and knows full well that it was
Lily?

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281743 ]

So, 11 Juni 2006 07:01

Toon

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 08:46:07 -0400, "Mme. India"
<mmeindia [at] comcast.net> wrote:

>I've always wondered if the "Voldemort was prepared to let Lily live" thing
>is the biggest red herring of the entire series. Why do we take Voldemort's
>word on this matter? (Just because it presents some interesting
>possibilities?) Maybe he just said that to get Lily out of the way
>temporarily, and would have killed her immediately after killing Harry.

JK said he would have let her live. Or answered that question with an
MmmHmmm, at any rate. Seemed to be avoiding the subject if you ask
me.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281744 ]

So, 11 Juni 2006 07:06

Toon

On 10 Jun 2006 12:27:30 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

>yes that is puzzling. I know the Treols was convinced that Lily's being
>allowed to live was important to LV but that it was marginally less
>important than harry's having to die. He convinced me at the time but
>the impression I get from LV when he tells harry that she 'didn't have
>to die' is that her life wasn't important to him. But having said that,
>like you say, why would the most evil dude in potterverse let a
>muggleborn live just because 'she didn't have to die'?

Well, that's the whole mystery, isn't it. he had no problems letting
her live, but contrariwise, no problem killing her. He therefore
neither gained anything important by letting her live, nor
lost/suffered an extreme punishment for killing her.

And it still comes down to V letting a muggle born who thrice defy him
live, after siring the baby who could vanquish him. Which she could
always do again.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281749 ]

So, 11 Juni 2006 08:56

Brian

Toon wrote:
> Like he recalls the night to Harry and knows full well that it was
> Lily?

I don't remember his recounting, but I did and do agree that he knew it
was Lily by the current time (the time of the books). Whether it was
because he discovered it was Lily then, or if it happened later, I
wouldn't be able to answer.

Well, I did say it was only a partial idea.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281753 ]

So, 11 Juni 2006 09:40

Toon

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:40:22 -0700 (PDT), brian [at] isi.edu (Brian Tung)
wrote:

>There is one more thing. I think that in both recollections that Harry
>has about the event (I'll have to go back and check), he hears who he
>think is Voldemort laughing maniacally. If that represents actual fact,
>obviously that doesn't happen after the AK backfires. I wonder what he
>was laughing about. The orthodox interpretation is that he's laughing
>because he's just about to kill the one person Lily cares most about.
>For some reason, that just doesn't ring true. It "sounds" like the kind
>of sadistic laughter that accompanies a villain's pleasant surprise.

My theory is James tried to kill him (non AK), and that was the crash
heard. Voldemort discovers he's perfectly fine, realizes Harry truly
is the only one who can vanquish him (horcrux or not), and laughs at
his true immortality. From where he stands, the only one who can kill
him is a baby, 15 months old. and let's face it. V vs Baby Harry,
you're money's on V.

My other theory is whatever James did, weakened Voldemort
tremendously, so that he offered Lily a chance to escape simply to
avoid a fight, incase he collapsed and Dumbledore catches him. he
knows Lily's moved into another room, heard James tell her to take
Harry. There's every chance she activated the DD signal. V would
want to kill Harry and get out fast. So, either offer Lily a chance
to live (in his mind, a no brainier), or else face a mini duel with
her. He can't die, but he can be weakened further.

My last theory is it takes some energy to perform spells. A weakened
V would want to avoid any more spell casting than necessary. And
killing a baby requires less effort than a full grown witch who can
defend herself.

Perhaps the AK rebounding wouldn't have effected him so much if he
wasn't so weak. James might have done more good than he realized.
help knock Voldie out of commission for a decade.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281754 ]

So, 11 Juni 2006 09:44

Toon

On 10 Jun 2006 05:45:47 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

>Toon wrote:
>> Hence why Voldemort was going to let her live.
>>
>> OK, finally got that out of the way. Now, for something even more
>> insane. . .
>
>McGONAGALL IS EVIL !!! ?

well, she seemed reluctant to give Luna points for her MOM adventure.
"I suppose," doesn't sound very fair and nonjudgmental. Almost like
she all but forgotten Luna, and then something reminded her Luna was
there too.

But she's more than happy to give her own house points.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281794 ]

So, 11 Juni 2006 18:17

Lady Grey

Karnak17 wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
<snip>
> > (I know that others have suggested that Snape asked LV to spare Lily
> > but i find this idea particulary nauseating)
>
> I agree with your reasoning (and share your nausea). Peter might make
> sense.
>
> I'd like to point out one other thing about Snape. DD's exact words
> were that Snape felt remorse "when he realized how LV had interpreted
> the prophecy". NOT what use LV HAD made of the prophecy. Snape
> therefore went to DD before LV killed the Potters, and it was possibly
> he was the "useful spy" who gave DD the info which sent the Potters
> into hiding in the first place.

Can I add that it was Snape's life debt to James which most likely lead
to this turn of events and not anything to do with Lily.

> If this is so, then Snape had no reason to bargain with LV, since 1) he
> already believed the Potters were safe, and 2) he had already become a
> double-agent and wouldn't want to blow his cover by betraying sympathy
> for the enemy.

very good point!

> Snape asking LV to spare Lily would assume that he was privy to the
> fact that Peter had snitched, and that Lily was in danger. There is no
> particular reason he would have even known about this. But Peter
> obviously WOULD know, and would have as much reason to be fond of Lily
> as Snape would.

or more so than Snape as Peter does not have an prejudices towards
muggle-borns and Peter would have known her better.

--
Jane Grey

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281796 ]

So, 11 Juni 2006 18:27

Thomas Madura

Mme. India wrote:
> I've always wondered if the "Voldemort was prepared to let Lily live" thing
> is the biggest red herring of the entire series. Why do we take Voldemort's
> word on this matter? (Just because it presents some interesting
> possibilities?) Maybe he just said that to get Lily out of the way
> temporarily, and would have killed her immediately after killing Harry.
>
> Or (I'm liking this idea better, but I just thought of it) maybe it was just
> a test. Any mother that would have said, "Okay, take my son but save me"
> would have been ripe for the Death Eaters-- he knew she was a talented witch
> and could have used her in other ways.
>
> India
>
>
>

It was more than that. It was a plot device used by JKR to get Lily to
willingly give up her life for Harry. If V had not given her a choice
and just killed her - he would have also just killed Harry. (No love
imprint in this case)

I continue to believe that this is bogus to begin with.

Lily did nothing but act as a speed bump when she gave her life for
Harry. Apparently she had no possibility of Fighting V off - and as far
as SHE knew - her death would not have been able to prevent Harry's
death either. So - as FAR AS SHE KNEW - she was giving up her life for
NOTHING. When James gave his life - he was hoping that Lily could use
the time to get Harry and get away somehow (Apparate away maybe) - That
was not a possibilty for Harry once Lily was dead. SO - AS FAR AS SHE
KNEW - giving up her life would give Harry a few extra seconds maybe.

At least James fought to save his family - Lily chose to just give in.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281800 ]

So, 11 Juni 2006 19:08

karnak17

Toon wrote:
> On 10 Jun 2006 05:45:47 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >Toon wrote:
> >> Hence why Voldemort was going to let her live.
> >>
> >> OK, finally got that out of the way. Now, for something even more
> >> insane. . .
> >
> >McGONAGALL IS EVIL !!! ?
>
> well, she seemed reluctant to give Luna points for her MOM adventure.
> "I suppose," doesn't sound very fair and nonjudgmental. Almost like
> she all but forgotten Luna, and then something reminded her Luna was
> there too.
>
> But she's more than happy to give her own house points.

Heh. :-)

It was a particularly insensitive display all around. She was giving
Harry points for getting Sirius murdered. I thought at the time I
first read it that it was the single cruelest thing that I'd ever seen
a teacher do at Hogwarts, and that is saying something.

Further, she dismisses Grabbe and Goyle with her luggage, but makes
sure to make Draco stick around to WATCH her reward Harry. Why was it
so important to her that this kid whose father has just gone to prison
recieves an extra dollop of public humiliation? Why didn't she ask him
to leave with his freinds? It was deliberately rubbing his face in his
humiliation, to force him to watch Harry be rewarded for putting Lucius
in prison. Why, (I thought) would McGonagall do that? If she was
TRYING to drive Draco towards the Death Eaters, she could not have done
a better job. But of course, if she is evil, that would have been
EXACTLY what she was trying to do -- with success.

I despise McGonagall, for the above scene, and other reasons. I would
be thrilled if she was evil. It would explain a lot. She'd still be
despicable, of course, but it a good way.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281816 ]

Mo, 12 Juni 2006 01:39

Thomas Madura

Brian Tung wrote:
> DaveD wrote:
>
>>Much too complicated, I think.
>
>
> Too complicated? It's really only one assertion--that Lily didn't
> appear as herself that night. It's unconvincing--now *that* I'll grant.
> I have no idea why she would do that.
>
>
>>Voldy had to kill Harry, so he thought, because of the prophecy. Lilly
>>(and possibly James) were irrelevant - Voldy didn't have any strategic
>>plans for their deaths (other than killing those actively opposing
>>him, or killing muggles to show he didn't make idle threats). However,
>>if they got between him and his objective - killing Harry - then yes
>>he'd kill them without noticing.
>
>
> Except that he *did* notice. He told her to get out of the way. Why
> would he do that for Lily but not James, when they were otherwise
> inextricably linked by that time? When they had, together, "thrice
> defied" him? I think it rather unlikely that he wouldn't have taken
> particular pleasure in killing both of them. Instead, he noticed, but
> didn't care enough not to kill her. It's that bit that I haven't seen
> explained adequately.
>

You are forgetting something else.

This was NOT a random act of violence.

Riddle was actively looking for the Potters - and no doubt had a plan
for the massacre that night.

It took a secret keeper to tell V where the Potters were that night.

My guess is that V didn't think that highly of Lily's power as a Witch -
enough to consider her a future threat if she lived. But he did want to
get Harry. James was in his way - and was fighting to protect Harry and
Lily - so V killed him.

It appears that Lily did not do the same.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281825 ]

Mo, 12 Juni 2006 04:17

DUH

> I despise McGonagall, for the above scene, and other reasons.

Ummm....you need to get out more.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281826 ]

Mo, 12 Juni 2006 04:20

DUH

Thom Madura wrote:
> Mme. India wrote:
>
>> I've always wondered if the "Voldemort was prepared to let Lily live"
>> thing is the biggest red herring of the entire series. Why do we take
>> Voldemort's word on this matter? (Just because it presents some
>> interesting possibilities?) Maybe he just said that to get Lily out
>> of the way temporarily, and would have killed her immediately after
>> killing Harry.
>>
>> Or (I'm liking this idea better, but I just thought of it) maybe it
>> was just a test. Any mother that would have said, "Okay, take my son
>> but save me" would have been ripe for the Death Eaters-- he knew she
>> was a talented witch and could have used her in other ways.
>>
>> India
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> It was more than that. It was a plot device used by JKR to get Lily to
> willingly give up her life for Harry. If V had not given her a choice
> and just killed her - he would have also just killed Harry. (No love
> imprint in this case)
>
> I continue to believe that this is bogus to begin with.
>
> Lily did nothing but act as a speed bump when she gave her life for
> Harry. Apparently she had no possibility of Fighting V off - and as far
> as SHE knew - her death would not have been able to prevent Harry's
> death either. So - as FAR AS SHE KNEW - she was giving up her life for
> NOTHING. When James gave his life - he was hoping that Lily could use
> the time to get Harry and get away somehow (Apparate away maybe) - That
> was not a possibilty for Harry once Lily was dead. SO - AS FAR AS SHE
> KNEW - giving up her life would give Harry a few extra seconds maybe.
>
> At least James fought to save his family - Lily chose to just give in.

Whole bunches of parents have a primal instinct to protect their kids,
sometimes with their own lives. Its not something you necessarily think
about.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281828 ]

Mo, 12 Juni 2006 05:59

Brian

Thom Madura wrote:
> You are forgetting something else.
>
> This was NOT a random act of violence.

I did not forget that. In fact, I am counting on it. If it were a
random act of violence, he would have been more likely to eliminate
her without a thought, not less. He was focused on Harry, yes, but
he treats Lily with a casual disregard that doesn't befit a random act
of violence.

To put it another way, it seemed curiously like a hit, not a killing
spree. But if so, why wouldn't Lily be a target of the hit when James
was? Why not kill both parents? Or, on the other hand, why not just
immobilize both parents? If one only cares about Harry, what more
sadistic way to do it than to do it in front of his parents?

> My guess is that V didn't think that highly of Lily's power as a Witch -
> enough to consider her a future threat if she lived.

I find that odd, since that can't have been their first encounter, if
indeed they had thrice defied him. It's possible that James had done
all the dirty work previously, but I don't see any evidence to that
effect. And there are a few good words about her magical abilities,
too, I think.

> It appears that Lily did not do the same.

Did not do what? She evidently died trying to protect Harry.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281829 ]

Mo, 12 Juni 2006 06:55

Toon

On 11 Jun 2006 10:08:36 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:

>f she was
>TRYING to drive Draco towards the Death Eaters, she could not have done
>a better job.

What if she was? To set up DD's plan on the tower for HBP?

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281830 ]

Mo, 12 Juni 2006 06:57

Toon

On 11 Jun 2006 09:17:32 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

>Can I add that it was Snape's life debt to James which most likely lead
>to this turn of events and not anything to do with Lily.

I've suggested it before, but it's not too popular. Apprently, people
don't like the idea of Snape not loving Lily. Despite any evidence
whatsoever.

And after he stupidly gets the guy who saved him killed, he dedicates
himself to protecting James son as payment. Including his one and
only time referring Quidditch.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281840 ]

Mo, 12 Juni 2006 10:31

Kish

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281842 ]

Mo, 12 Juni 2006 14:26

karnak17

duh wrote:
> > I despise McGonagall, for the above scene, and other reasons.
>
> Ummm....you need to get out more.

Well, I do!. She sucks. She is the lamest good guy in the entire
book, and an embarrassment to all females. She's incompetent, whiny
and a total loser.

If we assume she is a good guy, that is. Evil McGonagall would be
excellent.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281844 ]

Mo, 12 Juni 2006 15:28

Paracelsus

Karnak17 wrote:

>It was a particularly insensitive display all around. She was giving
>Harry points for getting Sirius murdered. I thought at the time I
>first read it that it was the single cruelest thing that I'd ever seen
>a teacher do at Hogwarts, and that is saying something.
>
>Further, she dismisses Grabbe and Goyle with her luggage, but makes
>sure to make Draco stick around to WATCH her reward Harry. Why was it
>so important to her that this kid whose father has just gone to prison
>recieves an extra dollop of public humiliation? Why didn't she ask him
>to leave with his freinds? It was deliberately rubbing his face in his
>humiliation, to force him to watch Harry be rewarded for putting Lucius
>in prison. Why, (I thought) would McGonagall do that? If she was
>TRYING to drive Draco towards the Death Eaters, she could not have done
>a better job. But of course, if she is evil, that would have been
>EXACTLY what she was trying to do -- with success.
>
>I despise McGonagall, for the above scene, and other reasons. I would
>be thrilled if she was evil. It would explain a lot. She'd still be
>despicable, of course, but it a good way.
>
>
>
McGonagall had just come back from St. Mungo's where she had been
recovering after being hit by four stunning spells.

She was rewarding Harry and his friends for alerting the world to the
return of Voldemort and, incidentally, cancelling out some of the
penalties which had been unjustly imposed by Umbridge.

Draco had just been gloating that the Dementors had left Azbakan and his
father and the other death eaters would be escaping soon.

McGonagall had always displayed an exemplary sense of fairness. I can
understand why, in the circumstances, she might have been slightly upset
with Draco.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281855 ]

Di, 13 Juni 2006 00:17

Thomas Madura

duh wrote:

> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>> Mme. India wrote:
>>
>>> I've always wondered if the "Voldemort was prepared to let Lily live"
>>> thing is the biggest red herring of the entire series. Why do we
>>> take Voldemort's word on this matter? (Just because it presents some
>>> interesting possibilities?) Maybe he just said that to get Lily out
>>> of the way temporarily, and would have killed her immediately after
>>> killing Harry.
>>>
>>> Or (I'm liking this idea better, but I just thought of it) maybe it
>>> was just a test. Any mother that would have said, "Okay, take my son
>>> but save me" would have been ripe for the Death Eaters-- he knew she
>>> was a talented witch and could have used her in other ways.
>>>
>>> India
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> It was more than that. It was a plot device used by JKR to get Lily to
>> willingly give up her life for Harry. If V had not given her a choice
>> and just killed her - he would have also just killed Harry. (No love
>> imprint in this case)
>>
>> I continue to believe that this is bogus to begin with.
>>
>> Lily did nothing but act as a speed bump when she gave her life for
>> Harry. Apparently she had no possibility of Fighting V off - and as
>> far as SHE knew - her death would not have been able to prevent
>> Harry's death either. So - as FAR AS SHE KNEW - she was giving up her
>> life for NOTHING. When James gave his life - he was hoping that Lily
>> could use the time to get Harry and get away somehow (Apparate away
>> maybe) - That was not a possibilty for Harry once Lily was dead. SO -
>> AS FAR AS SHE KNEW - giving up her life would give Harry a few extra
>> seconds maybe.
>>
>> At least James fought to save his family - Lily chose to just give in.
>
>
>
> Whole bunches of parents have a primal instinct to protect their kids,
> sometimes with their own lives. Its not something you necessarily think
> about.

But this Was Harry Potter - not just any Kid. Even Petunia and Vernon
knew there was something peculiar about him.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281856 ]

Di, 13 Juni 2006 00:21

Thomas Madura

Brian Tung wrote:

> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>>You are forgetting something else.
>>
>>This was NOT a random act of violence.
>
>
> I did not forget that. In fact, I am counting on it. If it were a
> random act of violence, he would have been more likely to eliminate
> her without a thought, not less. He was focused on Harry, yes, but
> he treats Lily with a casual disregard that doesn't befit a random act
> of violence.
>
> To put it another way, it seemed curiously like a hit, not a killing
> spree. But if so, why wouldn't Lily be a target of the hit when James
> was? Why not kill both parents? Or, on the other hand, why not just
> immobilize both parents? If one only cares about Harry, what more
> sadistic way to do it than to do it in front of his parents?
>
>
>>My guess is that V didn't think that highly of Lily's power as a Witch -
>>enough to consider her a future threat if she lived.
>
>
> I find that odd, since that can't have been their first encounter, if
> indeed they had thrice defied him. It's possible that James had done
> all the dirty work previously, but I don't see any evidence to that
> effect. And there are a few good words about her magical abilities,
> too, I think.
>
>
>>It appears that Lily did not do the same.
>
>
> Did not do what? She evidently died trying to protect Harry.
>

How did she do that?

What did she do that would have protected Harry as far as SHE knew
(Remebering the "love" was not something she knew about). Based on what
she knew - how was dying going to protect Harry in any way?

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281857 ]

Di, 13 Juni 2006 00:24

Thomas Madura

Kish wrote:

> Brian Tung wrote:
>
>> Thom Madura wrote:
>>
>>> You are forgetting something else.
>>>
>>> This was NOT a random act of violence.
>>
>>
>>
>> I did not forget that. In fact, I am counting on it. If it were a
>> random act of violence, he would have been more likely to eliminate
>> her without a thought, not less. He was focused on Harry, yes, but
>> he treats Lily with a casual disregard that doesn't befit a random act
>> of violence.
>>
>> To put it another way, it seemed curiously like a hit, not a killing
>> spree. But if so, why wouldn't Lily be a target of the hit when James
>> was? Why not kill both parents? Or, on the other hand, why not just
>> immobilize both parents?
>
>
> Maybe he couldn't. Avada Kedavra is the only unblockable spell we know
> of, and both Lily and James were supposed to be quite powerful magically.

Lily has been described as good with Charms - but not in any other way
powerful. Clearly - she was no match for V when he did kill her.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281861 ]

Di, 13 Juni 2006 00:43

Brian

Thom Madura wrote:
> What did she do that would have protected Harry as far as SHE knew
> (Remebering the "love" was not something she knew about). Based on what
> she knew - how was dying going to protect Harry in any way?

As someone else has pointed out, the fact that you have no foreseeable
chance to succeed doesn't mean you didn't try. She probably knew it
was entirely futile. In my opinion, that doesn't mean she didn't try.
It is not at all an unnatural reaction by a parent.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281862 ]

Di, 13 Juni 2006 01:02

karnak17

Paracelsus wrote:
> Karnak17 wrote:
>
> >It was a particularly insensitive display all around. She was giving
> >Harry points for getting Sirius murdered. I thought at the time I
> >first read it that it was the single cruelest thing that I'd ever seen
> >a teacher do at Hogwarts, and that is saying something.
> >
> >Further, she dismisses Grabbe and Goyle with her luggage, but makes
> >sure to make Draco stick around to WATCH her reward Harry. Why was it
> >so important to her that this kid whose father has just gone to prison
> >recieves an extra dollop of public humiliation? Why didn't she ask him
> >to leave with his freinds? It was deliberately rubbing his face in his
> >humiliation, to force him to watch Harry be rewarded for putting Lucius
> >in prison. Why, (I thought) would McGonagall do that? If she was
> >TRYING to drive Draco towards the Death Eaters, she could not have done
> >a better job. But of course, if she is evil, that would have been
> >EXACTLY what she was trying to do -- with success.
> >
> >I despise McGonagall, for the above scene, and other reasons. I would
> >be thrilled if she was evil. It would explain a lot. She'd still be
> >despicable, of course, but it a good way.
> >
> >
> McGonagall had just come back from St. Mungo's where she had been
> recovering after being hit by four stunning spells.
>
> She was rewarding Harry and his friends for alerting the world to the
> return of Voldemort and, incidentally, cancelling out some of the
> penalties which had been unjustly imposed by Umbridge.
>
> Draco had just been gloating that the Dementors had left Azbakan and his
> father and the other death eaters would be escaping soon.
>
> McGonagall had always displayed an exemplary sense of fairness. I can
> understand why, in the circumstances, she might have been slightly upset
> with Draco.

Whatever McGonagall "always" does, it does not change the fact that
THIS was an exemplary case of cruelty. To both boys.

She was not privy to what had happened between Draco and Harry. But
I'm sure she GUESSED that either the death of Sirius, or the
imprisonment of Lucius, or both, was behind the boys' altercation.

And she fanned the flames. As Toon says, possibly deliberately. It
was certainly not the act of a fair minded teacher to further humiliate
a boy whose family has JUST suffered terrible public disgrace, and
whose father has gone to Azkaban, possibly for life, in front of his
worst enemy. Decent adults do not kick children (or even other adults)
when they are down. _I_ thought that from someone with an actual
reputation for fairness, a word of actual compassion might have been in
order, and I was even EXPECTING it. Didn't happen.

Nor was it the act of a compassionate teacher to REWARD a traumatized
young boy for murdering his own Godfather -- like Harry was REALLY
going to feel better about THAT because he won the House Cup in the
process.

McGonagall sucks. (Unless she's evil.)

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281864 ]

Di, 13 Juni 2006 01:27

Eric Bohlman

brian [at] isi.edu (Brian Tung) wrote in news:e6drpo$vk5$1 [at] praesepe.isi.edu:

> Ehh, I know you're not entirely serious with this, but I don't buy it.
> The only thing we have to go by--Harry's recollections of the event--
> indicate that Voldemort was *prepared* to let her live, but it did not
> seem to be a matter of great importance to him. That is a puzzle that
> needs to be explained. What reason would explain why he would have let
> her live, and yet he doesn't care that much if she dies?

JKR's frequently used Lily to symbolize love. Tom's attitude toward love
is one of *indifference*. He doesn't *hate* love, because to hate
something is to regard as important; rather he thinks it's meaningless. If
that's the case, then killing her doesn't gain him any "badass points" in
his own mind. It's not a "trophy kill."

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281883 ]

Di, 13 Juni 2006 03:53

mystic

Eric Bohlman wrote:
> brian [at] isi.edu (Brian Tung) wrote in news:e6drpo$vk5$1 [at] praesepe.isi.edu:
>
>
>>Ehh, I know you're not entirely serious with this, but I don't buy it.
>>The only thing we have to go by--Harry's recollections of the event--
>>indicate that Voldemort was *prepared* to let her live, but it did not
>>seem to be a matter of great importance to him. That is a puzzle that
>>needs to be explained. What reason would explain why he would have let
>>her live, and yet he doesn't care that much if she dies?

My guess would be because of Snape. In the HBP Snape is the revealed as
the potions master. But Lillian is the one that slugworth thinks is the
prodigy. I think Lillian tutored Snape in potions and thus Snape thought
of her as more than just a tutor in potions. Maybe as someone who cared
about him.

Thus Lillian is someone Snape cares about, and when Voldomort kills her
he changes sides.

*MYSTIC*

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281886 ]

Di, 13 Juni 2006 05:05

Fish Eye no Miko

*MYSTIC* wrote:

> My guess would be because of Snape. In the HBP Snape is the
> revealed as the potions master. But Lillian

Her name is Lily. I've never heard of her referred to as "Lillian".

Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"New teeth... that's weird..."
-The Doctor, right after his 9th regeneration, _Doctor Who_.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281889 ]

Di, 13 Juni 2006 06:51

Toon

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:53:38 -0700, *MYSTIC* <mystic [at] thecave.net>
wrote:

>
>Thus Lillian is someone Snape cares about, and when Voldomort kills her
>he changes sides.

Amazing, since he changed sides before her death.

Re: Lily Was To Be The Final Horcrux [message #281890 ]

Di, 13 Juni 2006 06:53

Toon

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 20:05:17 -0700, "Fish Eye no Miko"
<fisheye [at] deadmoon.circus> wrote:

>*MYSTIC* wrote:
>
>> My guess would be because of Snape. In the HBP Snape is the
>> revealed as the potions master. But Lillian
>
>Her name is Lily. I've never heard of her referred to as "Lillian".
>
>Catherine Johnson.

Well, technically, Lily can be short for Lillian (Well Lil, but not a
far cry to Lily). Just considering the flower names, I doubt it.

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