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Science Fiction » alt.fan.starwars » Lets face it, a year on
Lets face it, a year on [message #279396] Mi, 07 Juni 2006 22:01
Paul Smith  
To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that it
still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only thing that
spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest Palpatine,
the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace had fighting
Palpy soon after.
Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not had
time to react?!!!!what!).
I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a little
more time on such a major scene.
Paul.
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279397 ] Mi, 07 Juni 2006 23:07
Anybody  
In article <WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net>, "Paul Smith"
<paul.smith30 [at] virgin.net> wrote:

> To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that it
> still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only thing that
> spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest Palpatine,
> the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace had fighting
> Palpy soon after.
> Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
> that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not had
> time to react?!!!!what!).
> I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a little
> more time on such a major scene.
> Paul.

Here we go again. :-\
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279398 ] Mi, 07 Juni 2006 23:51
Paul Smith  
'Here we go again'. Interesting, a well thought out reply - well done
anybody.
Nice to know there are still people out there who read every post and like
to correct those who just occasionally step in once in a while.


"Paul Smith" wrote in message
news:WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that it
> still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only thing
> that spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest
> Palpatine, the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace
> had fighting Palpy soon after.
> Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
> that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not had
> time to react?!!!!what!).
> I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a little
> more time on such a major scene.
> Paul.
>
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279399 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 00:45
user  
It's my third favorite, too. There are a few things that bug me, but that
can be said about any movie I watch. For me the two things I don't like the
most are:
1. The opening space battle - Way too much going on. It feels so overdone.
Once the battle moves inside the ship, things get going just fine.
2. And of course, the arresting of Palpatine. I never liked Kit Fisto
anyway. http://deathoffisto.ytmnd.com/
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279400 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 02:50
Anybody  
In article <oTHhg.15455$x53.3498 [at] newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, "Paul Smith"
<paul.smith30 [at] virgin.net> wrote:
>
> "Paul Smith" wrote in message
> news:WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> > To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that it
> > still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only thing
> > that spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest
> > Palpatine, the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace
> > had fighting Palpy soon after.
> > Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
> > that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not had
> > time to react?!!!!what!).
> > I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a little
> > more time on such a major scene.
> > Paul.
>
> 'Here we go again'. Interesting, a well thought out reply - well done
> anybody.
> Nice to know there are still people out there who read every post and like
> to correct those who just occasionally step in once in a while.

If you'd read some of the other posts you would have found this topic
has already been covered very recently. Try reading the messages in the
subject with the equally useful title of "This really annoys me....".

To give you the summary:
Technically and realistically there is nothing wrong with that scene.
It's only in some people's opinion that there is a supposed "problem".
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279401 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 03:11
Todd  
On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:50:44 +1200, Anybody
<anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:

>In article <oTHhg.15455$x53.3498 [at] newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, "Paul Smith"
><paul.smith30 [at] virgin.net> wrote:
>>
>> "Paul Smith" wrote in message
>> news:WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
>> > To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that it
>> > still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only thing
>> > that spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest
>> > Palpatine, the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace
>> > had fighting Palpy soon after.
>> > Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
>> > that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not had
>> > time to react?!!!!what!).
>> > I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a little
>> > more time on such a major scene.
>> > Paul.
>>
>> 'Here we go again'. Interesting, a well thought out reply - well done
>> anybody.
>> Nice to know there are still people out there who read every post and like
>> to correct those who just occasionally step in once in a while.
>
>If you'd read some of the other posts you would have found this topic
>has already been covered very recently. Try reading the messages in the
>subject with the equally useful title of "This really annoys me....".
>
>To give you the summary:
>Technically and realistically there is nothing wrong with that scene.
>It's only in some people's opinion that there is a supposed "problem".


Thank you, master of the obvious. Many people, including me, think
there *is* something "technically and realistically" wrong with that
scene. It was a missed opportunity on a grand scale. Four Jedi
Masters against a Sith Master and 3/4 of it is over in seconds. It
would have been truly something to see the three display some level of
skill before being cut down by Palpatine. After all, Kit Fisto is
portrayed as one of the strongest Jedi in the Clone Wars animated
series that leads into Ep. III. Lightsaber battles are the hallmark
of the SW series, and we should have seen these masters demonstrate
their prowess before being cut down by an even more powerful Force
user.

Don't even get me started on the crappy choreography between Mace and
Palpatine.

Todd
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279404 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 08:10
Anybody  
In article <3vte82pb6upjkm0m7noh1iftncg911f1ia [at] 4ax.com>, Todd
<twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:50:44 +1200, Anybody
> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <oTHhg.15455$x53.3498 [at] newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, "Paul Smith"
> ><paul.smith30 [at] virgin.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> "Paul Smith" wrote in message
> >> news:WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> >> > To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that
> >> > it
> >> > still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only thing
> >> > that spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest
> >> > Palpatine, the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace
> >> > had fighting Palpy soon after.
> >> > Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
> >> > that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not
> >> > had
> >> > time to react?!!!!what!).
> >> > I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a
> >> > little
> >> > more time on such a major scene.
> >> > Paul.
> >>
> >> 'Here we go again'. Interesting, a well thought out reply - well done
> >> anybody.
> >> Nice to know there are still people out there who read every post and like
> >> to correct those who just occasionally step in once in a while.
> >
> >If you'd read some of the other posts you would have found this topic
> >has already been covered very recently. Try reading the messages in the
> >subject with the equally useful title of "This really annoys me....".
> >
> >To give you the summary:
> >Technically and realistically there is nothing wrong with that scene.
> >It's only in some people's opinion that there is a supposed "problem".
>
> Thank you, master of the obvious. Many people, including me, think
> there *is* something "technically and realistically" wrong with that
> scene.

Yet again, there is absolutely nothing unrealistic about that scene -
it is a fact that such things CAN and DO happen.



> It was a missed opportunity on a grand scale. Four Jedi
> Masters against a Sith Master and 3/4 of it is over in seconds. It
> would have been truly something to see the three display some level of
> skill before being cut down by Palpatine. After all, Kit Fisto is
> portrayed as one of the strongest Jedi in the Clone Wars animated
> series that leads into Ep. III. Lightsaber battles are the hallmark
> of the SW series, and we should have seen these masters demonstrate
> their prowess before being cut down by an even more powerful Force
> user.
>
> Don't even get me started on the crappy choreography between Mace and
> Palpatine.

All of this is just your opinion, shared by some but the complete
opposite to others' opinions. It's utterly pointless trying to argue /
debate for or against people's personal opinions.
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279406 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 08:48
Chuck  
In one of the web documentaries from EP III (and perhaps elsewhere) it was
stated that the throne room scene was changed and re-shot - we see at least
a second scripted version that Lucas came up with from what it was
originally . . . I too (like most people, IMHO) think it should have been
slightly different, with a little more sword play with the Jedi Masters,
before they are slaughtered --

I would have written the action to be something like:
MACE arrives with THREE JEDI to arrest PALPATINE.
PALPATINE: Master Windu. I take it General Grievous has been destroyed then.
I must say, you're here sooner than expected.
MACE WINDU: In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are
under arrest, Chancellor.
MACE WINDU and the other JEDI ignite their lightsabers.
PALPATINE: Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?
MACE: The Senate will decide your fate.
PALPATINE: (burst of anger) I am the Senate!
MACE: Not yet!
PALPATINE stands, a laser sword appears out of his cloak sleeve . . .

PALPATINE: It's treason, then.


1. Palpatine force pushes Mace back through the three Jedi Masters and
literally out the door and force closes the door and shorts the lock . . .
2. In the mean time, the three Jedi Masters triple-team Palpatine [Mace is
heard outside tying to get in and then begins to cut the door with his saber
to gain entry]
3. In a masterful display of swordplay Palpatine fights all three Jedi
Masters at the same time, force pushing one unconscious, flipping over the
other two and using the unconscious Jedi's saber double-twirls the two
sabers, spins and cuts the two fighting Jedi in half . . .
4. Mace has cut through the chamber doors and approaches Palpatine, saber
ignited. As Mace prepares to strike, Palpatine force grabs the previous
unconscious Jedi, now semi-conscious, and uses him as a shield as Mace
thrusts his saber . . . Mace, accidentally kills the Jedi . . . a look of
disbelief crosses the dying Jedi and shock in Windu and Palpatine laughs . .
..
5. Palpatine steps back, ignites his saber and in a taunting stance "eggs
on" Mace . . . in rage Mace attacks and the rest of the fight and the end of
Windu is as the movie currently stands.

(but that's what *I* would do)

BUT . . . I also think that Anakin's "I'll do whatever you say" and giving
into Darth Sidious was just a little too quick . . . I'm not sure how I
would change it . . . but then again, I can't change any of it -

Oh well . . .

--
Chuck

"Paul Smith" <paul.smith30 [at] virgin.net> wrote in message
news:WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that it
> still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only thing
that
> spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest Palpatine,
> the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace had fighting
> Palpy soon after.
> Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
> that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not had
> time to react?!!!!what!).
> I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a little
> more time on such a major scene.
> Paul.
>
>
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279407 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 09:18
Anybody  
In article <LqydnfcZZY-cVRrZnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d [at] comcast.com>, "Chuck"
<yadayada [at] blah.blah> wrote:

> In one of the web documentaries from EP III (and perhaps elsewhere) it was
> stated that the throne room scene was changed and re-shot - we see at least
> a second scripted version that Lucas came up with from what it was
> originally . . .

I haven't actually read it yet, but a quick flick through the Episode
III novel does give a slightly different version where Kit Fisto
survives a little longer.
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279408 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 11:20
Jedi Apprentice  
Chuck wrote:
> In one of the web documentaries from EP III (and perhaps elsewhere) it was
> stated that the throne room scene was changed and re-shot - we see at least
> a second scripted version that Lucas came up with from what it was
> originally . . . I too (like most people, IMHO) think it should have been
> slightly different, with a little more sword play with the Jedi Masters,
> before they are slaughtered --
>
> I would have written the action to be something like:
> MACE arrives with THREE JEDI to arrest PALPATINE.
> PALPATINE: Master Windu. I take it General Grievous has been destroyed then.
> I must say, you're here sooner than expected.
> MACE WINDU: In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are
> under arrest, Chancellor.
> MACE WINDU and the other JEDI ignite their lightsabers.
> PALPATINE: Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?
> MACE: The Senate will decide your fate.
> PALPATINE: (burst of anger) I am the Senate!
> MACE: Not yet!
> PALPATINE stands, a laser sword appears out of his cloak sleeve . . .
>
> PALPATINE: It's treason, then.
>
>
> 1. Palpatine force pushes Mace back through the three Jedi Masters and
> literally out the door and force closes the door and shorts the lock . . .
> 2. In the mean time, the three Jedi Masters triple-team Palpatine [Mace is
> heard outside tying to get in and then begins to cut the door with his saber
> to gain entry]
> 3. In a masterful display of swordplay Palpatine fights all three Jedi
> Masters at the same time, force pushing one unconscious, flipping over the
> other two and using the unconscious Jedi's saber double-twirls the two
> sabers, spins and cuts the two fighting Jedi in half . . .
> 4. Mace has cut through the chamber doors and approaches Palpatine, saber
> ignited. As Mace prepares to strike, Palpatine force grabs the previous
> unconscious Jedi, now semi-conscious, and uses him as a shield as Mace
> thrusts his saber . . . Mace, accidentally kills the Jedi . . . a look of
> disbelief crosses the dying Jedi and shock in Windu and Palpatine laughs . .
> .
> 5. Palpatine steps back, ignites his saber and in a taunting stance "eggs
> on" Mace . . . in rage Mace attacks and the rest of the fight and the end of
> Windu is as the movie currently stands.
>
> (but that's what *I* would do)
>
> BUT . . . I also think that Anakin's "I'll do whatever you say" and giving
> into Darth Sidious was just a little too quick . . . I'm not sure how I
> would change it . . . but then again, I can't change any of it -
>
> Oh well . . .
>
> --
> Chuck
>
> "Paul Smith" <paul.smith30 [at] virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> > To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that it
> > still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only thing
> that
> > spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest Palpatine,
> > the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace had fighting
> > Palpy soon after.
> > Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
> > that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not had
> > time to react?!!!!what!).
> > I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a little
> > more time on such a major scene.
> > Paul.
> >
> >

I think you have it spot on there! That would have been much better!

I think the Anakin turning thing could have been made better by just
having more conflict between him and Mace before Anakin cuts his arm
off... things like "He must live", "I need him!", "Why don't you listen
to me?!", "You never trusted me!", "Why don't the Jedi trust me??!!"
(getting more angry and frustrated) etc etc. If they had made Mace a
little more patronising and derogatory towards Anakin in that scene it
could have been better.

Also I think if Anakin had just blocked his saber first, Mace force
pushed him out of the way and while Mace was distracted, Palpatine
finally hits him with the force lightening that possibly would have
been better. Then Anakin could have used the "You saved me" line or
something...

I think the problem is that they had so much story to tellin 2 hours
and the film was going at such a pace, that long drawn-out scenes like
those would just slow the momentum too much.
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279409 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 15:02
David Mooney  
I think Kill Bill part 1 had a sword fight that had a little better
choreography, although it too had it's weaknesses. One woman against 88
swordsmen and it was over in 15 minutes.

"Todd" <twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3vte82pb6upjkm0m7noh1iftncg911f1ia [at] 4ax.com...
> On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:50:44 +1200, Anybody
> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <oTHhg.15455$x53.3498 [at] newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, "Paul Smith"
>><paul.smith30 [at] virgin.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> "Paul Smith" wrote in message
>>> news:WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
>>> > To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that
>>> > it
>>> > still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only
>>> > thing
>>> > that spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest
>>> > Palpatine, the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene
>>> > Mace
>>> > had fighting Palpy soon after.
>>> > Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans
>>> > saying
>>> > that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not
>>> > had
>>> > time to react?!!!!what!).
>>> > I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a
>>> > little
>>> > more time on such a major scene.
>>> > Paul.
>>>
>>> 'Here we go again'. Interesting, a well thought out reply - well done
>>> anybody.
>>> Nice to know there are still people out there who read every post and
>>> like
>>> to correct those who just occasionally step in once in a while.
>>
>>If you'd read some of the other posts you would have found this topic
>>has already been covered very recently. Try reading the messages in the
>>subject with the equally useful title of "This really annoys me....".
>>
>>To give you the summary:
>>Technically and realistically there is nothing wrong with that scene.
>>It's only in some people's opinion that there is a supposed "problem".
>
>
> Thank you, master of the obvious. Many people, including me, think
> there *is* something "technically and realistically" wrong with that
> scene. It was a missed opportunity on a grand scale. Four Jedi
> Masters against a Sith Master and 3/4 of it is over in seconds. It
> would have been truly something to see the three display some level of
> skill before being cut down by Palpatine. After all, Kit Fisto is
> portrayed as one of the strongest Jedi in the Clone Wars animated
> series that leads into Ep. III. Lightsaber battles are the hallmark
> of the SW series, and we should have seen these masters demonstrate
> their prowess before being cut down by an even more powerful Force
> user.
>
> Don't even get me started on the crappy choreography between Mace and
> Palpatine.
>
> Todd
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279410 ] Do, 08 Juni 2006 17:37
Todd  
On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 18:10:19 +1200, Anybody
<anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:

>In article <3vte82pb6upjkm0m7noh1iftncg911f1ia [at] 4ax.com>, Todd
><twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:50:44 +1200, Anybody
>> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <oTHhg.15455$x53.3498 [at] newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, "Paul Smith"
>> ><paul.smith30 [at] virgin.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "Paul Smith" wrote in message
>> >> news:WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
>> >> > To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that
>> >> > it
>> >> > still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only thing
>> >> > that spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest
>> >> > Palpatine, the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace
>> >> > had fighting Palpy soon after.
>> >> > Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
>> >> > that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not
>> >> > had
>> >> > time to react?!!!!what!).
>> >> > I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a
>> >> > little
>> >> > more time on such a major scene.
>> >> > Paul.
>> >>
>> >> 'Here we go again'. Interesting, a well thought out reply - well done
>> >> anybody.
>> >> Nice to know there are still people out there who read every post and like
>> >> to correct those who just occasionally step in once in a while.
>> >
>> >If you'd read some of the other posts you would have found this topic
>> >has already been covered very recently. Try reading the messages in the
>> >subject with the equally useful title of "This really annoys me....".
>> >
>> >To give you the summary:
>> >Technically and realistically there is nothing wrong with that scene.
>> >It's only in some people's opinion that there is a supposed "problem".
>>
>> Thank you, master of the obvious. Many people, including me, think
>> there *is* something "technically and realistically" wrong with that
>> scene.
>
>Yet again, there is absolutely nothing unrealistic about that scene -
>it is a fact that such things CAN and DO happen.
>

Yes, bad choreography does happen.

>

>All of this is just your opinion, shared by some but the complete
>opposite to others' opinions. It's utterly pointless trying to argue /
>debate for or against people's personal opinions.


This is the whole point of Usenet--to debate opinions, get
information, learn something, etc.

Todd
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279412 ] Fr, 09 Juni 2006 01:14
charlie12345  
Chuck wrote:
> In one of the web documentaries from EP III (and perhaps elsewhere) it was
> stated that the throne room scene was changed and re-shot - we see at least
> a second scripted version that Lucas came up with from what it was
> originally . . . I too (like most people, IMHO) think it should have been
> slightly different, with a little more sword play with the Jedi Masters,
> before they are slaughtered --
>
> I would have written the action to be something like:
> MACE arrives with THREE JEDI to arrest PALPATINE.
> PALPATINE: Master Windu. I take it General Grievous has been destroyed then.
> I must say, you're here sooner than expected.
> MACE WINDU: In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are
> under arrest, Chancellor.
> MACE WINDU and the other JEDI ignite their lightsabers.
> PALPATINE: Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?
> MACE: The Senate will decide your fate.
> PALPATINE: (burst of anger) I am the Senate!
> MACE: Not yet!
> PALPATINE stands, a laser sword appears out of his cloak sleeve . . .
>
> PALPATINE: It's treason, then.
>
>
> 1. Palpatine force pushes Mace back through the three Jedi Masters and
> literally out the door and force closes the door and shorts the lock . . .
> 2. In the mean time, the three Jedi Masters triple-team Palpatine [Mace is
> heard outside tying to get in and then begins to cut the door with his saber
> to gain entry]
> 3. In a masterful display of swordplay Palpatine fights all three Jedi
> Masters at the same time, force pushing one unconscious, flipping over the
> other two and using the unconscious Jedi's saber double-twirls the two
> sabers, spins and cuts the two fighting Jedi in half . . .
> 4. Mace has cut through the chamber doors and approaches Palpatine, saber
> ignited. As Mace prepares to strike, Palpatine force grabs the previous
> unconscious Jedi, now semi-conscious, and uses him as a shield as Mace
> thrusts his saber . . . Mace, accidentally kills the Jedi . . . a look of
> disbelief crosses the dying Jedi and shock in Windu and Palpatine laughs . .
> .
> 5. Palpatine steps back, ignites his saber and in a taunting stance "eggs
> on" Mace . . . in rage Mace attacks and the rest of the fight and the end of
> Windu is as the movie currently stands.
>
> (but that's what *I* would do)
>
> BUT . . . I also think that Anakin's "I'll do whatever you say" and giving
> into Darth Sidious was just a little too quick . . . I'm not sure how I
> would change it . . . but then again, I can't change any of it -
>
> Oh well . . .
>
> --
> Chuck
>
> "Paul Smith" <paul.smith30 [at] virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> > To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that it
> > still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only thing
> that
> > spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest Palpatine,
> > the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace had fighting
> > Palpy soon after.
> > Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
> > that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not had
> > time to react?!!!!what!).
> > I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a little
> > more time on such a major scene.
> > Paul.
> >
> > Spot on. GL could have had 3 excellent prequelsmovies, instead he has 2 ok films in the TPM and ROTS.
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279416 ] Fr, 09 Juni 2006 03:24
Grue  
"Paul Smith" <paul.smith30 [at] virgin.net> wrote in
news:WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net:

> and that the only thing that
> spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest
> Palpatine, the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene
> Mace had fighting Palpy soon after.
>

My $.02:

The Jedi were trained in an old school way by Mace Windu and Yoda and were
not experianced in the powers and techniques of the Sith. Many of them had
never even seen a Sith before, and seeing as how they were around Senator
Palatine all the time, and thought of him as a feeble old man who was in
constant need of rescue, they underestimated him, and paid for it with
their lives.

They might have had time to react, but they were totally off guard. They
had no idea he was going to coming spinning toward them wailing like a
banshee swingin his lightsaber. Here was this guy, who looked like he had
trouble walking most of the time, whirling and spinning around like crazy,
and they had never seen anything like that. Even Mace was surprised, as he
said "A SITH LORD?!" when Anakin told him the news.

I think this goes a long way in explaining why yoda felt the Sith's return
and the scourge of the Jedi was his falt, because he had trained Jedi for
the same way for years, and they were unprepared for the Sith's return.
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279417 ] Fr, 09 Juni 2006 04:23
h  
Grue wrote:

> Here was this guy, who looked like he had
> trouble walking most of the time, whirling and spinning around like crazy,
> and they had never seen anything like that.

They (the Jedi) must have seen Yoda fight like that, and most of the
time HE seemed old and feeble too.

I think the main problem that people who don't like the scene have, is
not that the Jedi were unprepared or taken by surprise or whatever
(because that is a fair statement) but they just stood there and got cut
down without doing anything... it weakens the view of the Jedi as
warriors as well as weakening our view of Palpatine. If P. had
dispatched four highly skilled Jedi, we would be impressed. As it was,
he just cut three Stooges out of the way to clear the room to fight Mace...

H.
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279418 ] Fr, 09 Juni 2006 08:31
Anybody  
In article <ptgg82lpjqtovr36k91trjukv6opar60fl [at] 4ax.com>, Todd
<twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 18:10:19 +1200, Anybody
> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <3vte82pb6upjkm0m7noh1iftncg911f1ia [at] 4ax.com>, Todd
> ><twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:50:44 +1200, Anybody
> >> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <oTHhg.15455$x53.3498 [at] newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, "Paul Smith"
> >> ><paul.smith30 [at] virgin.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> "Paul Smith" wrote in message
> >> >> news:WgGhg.4843$1Z2.2963 [at] newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> >> >> > To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that
> >> >> > it
> >> >> > still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only
> >> >> > thing
> >> >> > that spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest
> >> >> > Palpatine, the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene
> >> >> > Mace
> >> >> > had fighting Palpy soon after.
> >> >> > Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans
> >> >> > saying
> >> >> > that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not
> >> >> > had
> >> >> > time to react?!!!!what!).
> >> >> > I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a
> >> >> > little
> >> >> > more time on such a major scene.
> >> >> > Paul.
> >> >>
> >> >> 'Here we go again'. Interesting, a well thought out reply - well done
> >> >> anybody.
> >> >> Nice to know there are still people out there who read every post and
> >> >> like
> >> >> to correct those who just occasionally step in once in a while.
> >> >
> >> >If you'd read some of the other posts you would have found this topic
> >> >has already been covered very recently. Try reading the messages in the
> >> >subject with the equally useful title of "This really annoys me....".
> >> >
> >> >To give you the summary:
> >> >Technically and realistically there is nothing wrong with that scene.
> >> >It's only in some people's opinion that there is a supposed "problem".
> >>
> >> Thank you, master of the obvious. Many people, including me, think
> >> there *is* something "technically and realistically" wrong with that
> >> scene.
> >
> >Yet again, there is absolutely nothing unrealistic about that scene -
> >it is a fact that such things CAN and DO happen.
>
> Yes, bad choreography does happen.

Oh dear. Looks like another twit is heading for the killfile. :-\



> >All of this is just your opinion, shared by some but the complete
> >opposite to others' opinions. It's utterly pointless trying to argue /
> >debate for or against people's personal opinions.
>
> This is the whole point of Usenet--to debate opinions, get
> information, learn something, etc.

You can't debate opinions - there is no "right" or "wrong". Everyone's
opinion is valid. You think there's something wrong, other people think
it's fine, and others couldn't care less either way. Whining on about
it doesn't achieve anything.

If you want "information" or to "learn something" then actually bother
to read the message when someone give you FACTS (not opinions). As I
said, the scene has nothing realistically wrong with it and is
completely plausible. People can and do freeze in stressful / shocking
/ surprising / scary situations. People each have a different limit at
which they reach that point, but EVERYONE can "freeze" and that
includes highly trained soldiers.
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279423 ] Sa, 10 Juni 2006 03:01
Todd  
On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:31:43 +1200, Anybody
<anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:


>
>Oh dear. Looks like another twit is heading for the killfile. :-\
>

Looks like someone is still huffing and puffing over our little
sparring session in the Lost group. Get over it already.

Killfiling someone because they disagree with you is akin to taking
your toys and going home. Have at it if you want, but if you're going
to be on Usenet you better develop a thicker hide.

>You can't debate opinions - there is no "right" or "wrong". Everyone's
>opinion is valid. You think there's something wrong, other people think
>it's fine, and others couldn't care less either way. Whining on about
>it doesn't achieve anything.

You can't debate opinions? Since when? People do it all the time.
Ever watch a news show? The question is whether one person's opinion
is more valid than the other's, such as when you provide citations to
support your argument (example: like I did in our Lost exchange).

>If you want "information" or to "learn something" then actually bother
>to read the message when someone give you FACTS (not opinions).

You've given us none. Shouting from the rooftops that there was
nothing wrong with that scene is not a fact. It's your opinion.
You've given no facts whatsoever.

>As I
>said, the scene has nothing realistically wrong with it and is
>completely plausible.

That's your opinion. It's not a fact. Make a case.

>People can and do freeze in stressful / shocking
>/ surprising / scary situations. People each have a different limit at
>which they reach that point, but EVERYONE can "freeze" and that
>includes highly trained soldiers.

Three Jedi masters who are veterans of scores of battles against
multiple opponents suddenly freeze when confronted with one man? They
outnumbered the guy, ffs. There's nothing believable about that,
especially when they know nothing about his skills. If they had seen
him in action and knew how dangerous he could bes, that would be one
thing. They would know where they stood. But this is one old man
they had no experience with. None had ever seen a Sith Master.
There's no reason for them to freeze right off the bat. Your argument
might hold a drop of water if they were Padawans or even inexperienced
Knights, but these are Masters we're talking about.

Todd
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279427 ] Sa, 10 Juni 2006 03:23
brianvdk  
Paul Smith wrote:
> To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that it
> still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH) and that the only thing that
> spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest Palpatine,
> the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace had fighting
> Palpy soon after.
> Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
> that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not had
> time to react?!!!!what!).
> I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a little
> more time on such a major scene.
> Paul.
>
>

Yah its allright... I'm get conflicted if i like it better then Jedi or
not. I never really bought Anakin's turn to the dark side.. I thought
the excuse was lame, he'd had a fair amount of training by then.. and
should of known a little better.

I guess he really turned, because he caused windu's death, and didn't
want to face the council. I guess i always expected something a little
more grand.

- BRian
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279429 ] Sa, 10 Juni 2006 03:46
Anybody  
In article <jl5k82dldfpe12tituiu7j4uo41pnjg5d9 [at] 4ax.com>, Todd
<twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:31:43 +1200, Anybody
> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
> >
> >Oh dear. Looks like another twit is heading for the killfile. :-\
>
> Looks like someone is still huffing and puffing over our little
> sparring session in the Lost group. Get over it already.

I don't even remember any "sparring session in the Lost group", so I
have no idea what you're on about.



> Killfiling someone because they disagree with you is akin to taking
> your toys and going home. Have at it if you want, but if you're going
> to be on Usenet you better develop a thicker hide.

It has nothing to do with disagreeing with anyone. I have limited
online time and really can't be bothered dealing with the numerous
idiots who THINK they're being clever or funny.



> >You can't debate opinions - there is no "right" or "wrong". Everyone's
> >opinion is valid. You think there's something wrong, other people think
> >it's fine, and others couldn't care less either way. Whining on about
> >it doesn't achieve anything.
>
> You can't debate opinions? Since when? People do it all the time.
> Ever watch a news show? The question is whether one person's opinion
> is more valid than the other's, such as when you provide citations to
> support your argument (example: like I did in our Lost exchange).
>
> >If you want "information" or to "learn something" then actually bother
> >to read the message when someone give you FACTS (not opinions).
>
> You've given us none. Shouting from the rooftops that there was
> nothing wrong with that scene is not a fact. It's your opinion.
> You've given no facts whatsoever.

Here we go. :-\

If you actually bother to READ the messages you'd find the facts. I've
said it multiple times already and yet again below for the slow-minded.



> >People can and do freeze in stressful / shocking
> >/ surprising / scary situations. People each have a different limit at
> >which they reach that point, but EVERYONE can "freeze" and that
> >includes highly trained soldiers.
>
> Three Jedi masters who are veterans of scores of battles against
> multiple opponents suddenly freeze when confronted with one man? They
> outnumbered the guy, ffs. There's nothing believable about that,
> especially when they know nothing about his skills. If they had seen
> him in action and knew how dangerous he could bes, that would be one
> thing. They would know where they stood. But this is one old man
> they had no experience with. None had ever seen a Sith Master.
> There's no reason for them to freeze right off the bat. Your argument
> might hold a drop of water if they were Padawans or even inexperienced
> Knights, but these are Masters we're talking about.

Even battle-hardened soldiers can and do still freeze ... that's a
fact, whether you like it or not.

The idea that the scene wasn't exciting enough for you is simply your
opinion ... one you're obviously allowed, but it means absolutely
nothing in the big scheme of things.

END OF STORY
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279437 ] Sa, 10 Juni 2006 14:57
Goedel  
Paul Smith wrote:
> To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that it
> still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH)

I tend to disagree, but my personal ranking of the movies is not
exactly conventional:


1) ESB
2) ROTJ
3) AOTC
4) ANH
5) ROTS
6) TPM


>and that the only thing that
> spoils it is that when Mace (with fellow Jedis) went to arrest Palpatine,
> the fight was, to be blunt - crap...along with the scene Mace had fighting
> Palpy soon after.
> Totally unconvincing and such a weak argument put up by some fans saying
> that the Jedis sent to arrest him never had time to react! (Jedis not had
> time to react?!!!!what!).
> I know there are other weak points but do I wish George had spent a little
> more time on such a major scene.
> Paul.
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279443 ] Sa, 10 Juni 2006 18:56
Todd  
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 13:46:36 +1200, Anybody
<anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:

>In article <jl5k82dldfpe12tituiu7j4uo41pnjg5d9 [at] 4ax.com>, Todd
><twrexxnospam [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:31:43 +1200, Anybody
>> <anybody [at] anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Oh dear. Looks like another twit is heading for the killfile. :-\
>>
>> Looks like someone is still huffing and puffing over our little
>> sparring session in the Lost group. Get over it already.
>
>I don't even remember any "sparring session in the Lost group", so I
>have no idea what you're on about.
>

Yes, clearly you have a short memory.

>
>> Killfiling someone because they disagree with you is akin to taking
>> your toys and going home. Have at it if you want, but if you're going
>> to be on Usenet you better develop a thicker hide.
>
>It has nothing to do with disagreeing with anyone. I have limited
>online time and really can't be bothered dealing with the numerous
>idiots who THINK they're being clever or funny.
>

Ad hominem attacks don't support your case.

>
>If you actually bother to READ the messages you'd find the facts. I've
>said it multiple times already and yet again below for the slow-minded.
>
>
>
>> >People can and do freeze in stressful / shocking
>> >/ surprising / scary situations. People each have a different limit at
>> >which they reach that point, but EVERYONE can "freeze" and that
>> >includes highly trained soldiers.
>>
>> Three Jedi masters who are veterans of scores of battles against
>> multiple opponents suddenly freeze when confronted with one man? They
>> outnumbered the guy, ffs. There's nothing believable about that,
>> especially when they know nothing about his skills. If they had seen
>> him in action and knew how dangerous he could bes, that would be one
>> thing. They would know where they stood. But this is one old man
>> they had no experience with. None had ever seen a Sith Master.
>> There's no reason for them to freeze right off the bat. Your argument
>> might hold a drop of water if they were Padawans or even inexperienced
>> Knights, but these are Masters we're talking about.
>
>Even battle-hardened soldiers can and do still freeze ... that's a
>fact, whether you like it or not.

This is merely speculation on your part. We have no anecdotal
evidence to suggest that Jedi, especially Jedi MASTERS, "freeze" the
way a human soldier might. Their skills are not like those of an
ordinary human being. To suddenly have them do so--and that scene
doesn't suggest they froze; it suggests they got their asses kicked
without breaking a sweat--stretches the realm of believability.

>The idea that the scene wasn't exciting enough for you is simply your
>opinion ... one you're obviously allowed, but it means absolutely
>nothing in the big scheme of things.
>

Who said it was anything other than opinion? I'm simply suggesting
that your "they froze" theory doesn't wash.

Todd
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #279453 ] So, 11 Juni 2006 02:50
Darth Mura  
Anybody wrote:
>
>
> If you actually bother to READ the messages you'd find the facts. I've
> said it multiple times already and yet again below for the slow-minded.

Man, it's just pouring down irony here today.
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #291990 ] Mi, 28 Juni 2006 03:46
Solon  
_Paul Smith_ spoke thusly on 07/06/2006 4:01 PM:
> To give a simplistic review of ROTS a year on I would have to say that it
> still remains the 3rd best film (after ESB,ANH)

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.starwars/msg/5ed34f3f 165df28e
"I think this will be the favourite.
Lawrence Kasdan put it best:
"George had been given enormous license, by the success of Star Wars;
and so when started talking to me about the Empire script that didn't
exist, he knew what had to happen in the story, and it was very dark
stuff. I was delighted that it was not going to be a rehash of Star
Wars; but in fact, after having set the whole thing up, and gotten that
rousing start, you launch into the second act, in which everything goes
to hell; and that's usually the best act in a play."

With the Star Wars saga being expanded to six movies, and the story
being about Anakin, the second act is no longer ESB, but (I think)
episodes two and three, especially three. I think people will like it,
because of the dark nature."
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com>
Re: Lets face it, a year on [message #291991 ] Mi, 28 Juni 2006 03:47
Solon  
_Darth Mura_ spoke thusly on 10/06/2006 8:50 PM:
> Anybody wrote:
>>
>> If you actually bother to READ the messages you'd find the facts. I've
>> said it multiple times already and yet again below for the slow-minded.
>
> Man, it's just pouring down irony here today.

I'm surprised he sees anyone's posts, but his own, anymore. :-)
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com>
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