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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Welcome! FAQs and important information.

Welcome! FAQs and important information. [message #278254]

Sa, 03 Juni 2006 10:14

sbjensen

Posting-Frequency: ~4 days (FAQs posted monthly)

Welcome to the Tolkien newsgroups! Our FAQs can be found at:

http://tolkien.slimy.com/

Even if you haven't read all of _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the
Rings_, you are welcome here, but be careful! Spoilers for the
stories can be anywhere... even in the subject line of a message!

To help you join our community as comfortably as possible, we do ask
that you read our Frequently Asked Questions lists before posting.
The FAQs discuss proper "netiquette" for participating in discussions
here, and also introduce the basics of our most frequent debates (the
main "Meta-FAQ" page lists the most "important" questions in bold).

Once again, welcome! We look forward to your participation.

Ring heat [message #278256 ]

Sa, 03 Juni 2006 16:51

Phlip

Steuard Jensen wrote:

> Welcome to the Tolkien newsgroups! Our FAQs can be found at:
>
> http://tolkien.slimy.com/

Here's one: Isildur took the Ring (hot as a glede) in TA0, wrote a scroll
about it in Minas Tirith around TA1, and lost it at the Disaster of the
Gladden Fields around TA3.

Three years after leaving Sauron's body heat, why was it still hot enough to
make Isildur cry out when he put it on?

--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Re: Ring heat [message #278258 ]

Sa, 03 Juni 2006 18:44

Christopher Kreuzer

Phlip <phlipcpp [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

> Isildur took the Ring (hot as a glede) in TA0, wrote a
> scroll about it in Minas Tirith around TA1, and lost it at the
> Disaster of the Gladden Fields around TA3.
>
> Three years after leaving Sauron's body heat, why was it still hot
> enough to make Isildur cry out when he put it on?

That scene is from 'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields' in /Unfinished
Tales/, and Isildur says earlier that he "dreads the pain of touching
it". The corresponding footnote mentions the passage in LotR where
Gandalf recounts his reading of the scroll of Isildur: "[Isildur:] my
hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the
pain of it." (The Council of Elrond)

This seems to be a mental scar. There is no suggestion that the Ring
remains hot (indeed quite the opposite), but rather that the memory of
it, probably along with the mental effects of the Ring, create a feeling
of pain.

Possibly there are similar experiences with Frodo:

"I am wounded, wounded; it will never really heal." (The Grey Havens)

Here, Frodo is talking about the knife wound from Weathertop. There is
also an earlier scene, when the hobbits are on their way home:

"'Are you in pain, Frodo?' said Gandalf quietly as he rode by Frodo's
side.
'Well, yes I am,' said Frodo. 'It is my shoulder. The wound aches, and
the memory of darkness is heavy on me. It was a year ago today.'
'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured,' said Gandalf.
'I fear it may be so with mine,' said Frodo. 'There is no real going
back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I
shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a
long burden. Where shall I find rest?' (Homeward Bound)

This may also, as others have speculated in the past, be tied up with
post-traumatic stress disorder, and associated conditions, and with
Tolkien's experiences in World War I.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Re: Ring heat [message #278259 ]

Sa, 03 Juni 2006 19:14

Phlip

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> That scene is from 'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields' in /Unfinished
> Tales/, and Isildur says earlier that he "dreads the pain of touching
> it". The corresponding footnote mentions the passage in LotR where
> Gandalf recounts his reading of the scroll of Isildur: "[Isildur:] my
> hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the
> pain of it." (The Council of Elrond)

He cried out when putting it on.

Compare Gandalf throwing the Ring into Frodo's fireplace, and fishing it out
with tongs. It stayed cool.

I think (regardless of our resident tolkienologists' capacity for quoting)
that the Ring resisted changing its temperature.

--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Re: Ring heat [message #278267 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 05:40

Stan Brown

Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:51:13 GMT from Phlip <phlipcpp [at] yahoo.com>:
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
>
> > Welcome to the Tolkien newsgroups! Our FAQs can be found at:
> >
> > http://tolkien.slimy.com/
>
> Here's one: Isildur took the Ring (hot as a glede) in TA0, wrote a scroll
> about it in Minas Tirith around TA1, and lost it at the Disaster of the
> Gladden Fields around TA3.
>
> Three years after leaving Sauron's body heat, why was it still hot enough to
> make Isildur cry out when he put it on?

Huh?

When he wrote the scroll, he was *recalling* the burning pain he felt
when he picked it up, fresh from Sauron's finger. I've never seen any
indication that it *stayed* hot. Indeed, Isildur himself recorded
that it had already nearly cooled.

In Frodo's study, the Ring was "quite cool" and the letters glowed
like fire. When Isildur wrote, the letters were "only barely to be
read." The Ring's lettering seems more sensitive to heat than the
substance of the Ring, but obviously if the letters were fainter when
Isildur wrote then the Ring could not have been hotter than it was in
Frodo's study, when Frodo found it "quite cool".

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

Re: Ring heat [message #278268 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 05:59

Phlip

Stan Brown wrote:

>> Three years after leaving Sauron's body heat, why was it still hot enough
>> to
>> make Isildur cry out when he put it on?
>
> Huh?
>
> When he wrote the scroll, he was *recalling* the burning pain he felt
> when he picked it up, fresh from Sauron's finger. I've never seen any
> indication that it *stayed* hot. Indeed, Isildur himself recorded
> that it had already nearly cooled.

I'm not looking at "Disaster..." right now; I thought it said the Ring
burned him when he put it on.

The "psychological scar" theory is also relevant, even though the Ring
burned his (right?) hand picking it up, not his ring finger (left?) when
wearing it.

Hypothesis: Isildur didn't know what primary power the Ring would impart a
mortal. Expecting to rise up before the orcs and Command them, like Sauron,
he instead found himself invisible, confused, and panicky. So he ran away
and left his troops to die instead.

> In Frodo's study, the Ring was "quite cool" and the letters glowed
> like fire. When Isildur wrote, the letters were "only barely to be
> read." The Ring's lettering seems more sensitive to heat than the
> substance of the Ring, but obviously if the letters were fainter when
> Isildur wrote then the Ring could not have been hotter than it was in
> Frodo's study, when Frodo found it "quite cool".

Point. The golden substance of the Ring could have resisted the heat of the
fireplace, while the red luminous material got hot and glowed.

--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Re: Ring heat [message #278269 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 06:36

Tar-Elenion

In article <uUsgg.131093$F_3.128828 [at] newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>,
phlipcpp [at] yahoo.com says...
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> >> Three years after leaving Sauron's body heat, why was it still hot enough
> >> to
> >> make Isildur cry out when he put it on?
> >
> > Huh?
> >
> > When he wrote the scroll, he was *recalling* the burning pain he felt
> > when he picked it up, fresh from Sauron's finger. I've never seen any
> > indication that it *stayed* hot. Indeed, Isildur himself recorded
> > that it had already nearly cooled.
>
> I'm not looking at "Disaster..." right now; I thought it said the Ring
> burned him when he put it on.

UT:
""Atarinya," he said, "what of the power that would cow these foul
creatures and command them to obey you? Is it then of no avail?"
"Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching
it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It
needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It
should go to the Keepers of the Three.""
and:
"Isildur turned west, and drawing up the Ring that hung in a wallet from
a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger with a cry of
pain, and was never seen again by any eye upon Middle-earth. But the
Elendilmir of the West could not be quenched, and suddenly it blazed
forth red and wrathful as a burning star."

LotR:
"It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was
scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of
it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though
it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape."
<snip>
--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.

Re: Ring heat [message #278270 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 09:57

Christopher Kreuzer

Phlip <phlipcpp [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

> Hypothesis: Isildur didn't know what primary power the Ring would
> impart a mortal. Expecting to rise up before the orcs and Command
> them, like Sauron, he instead found himself invisible, confused, and
> panicky. So he ran away and left his troops to die instead.

Disproof: Isildur and Elendur (the only one of his sons still unharmed
and alive) discussed what to do with the Ring. The decision was that if
the Ring could not be used, someone needed to flee with the Ring and
take it to safety, much as Ohtar and his esquire had already fled with
the shards of Narsil.

Elendur: "Your last counsellor must advise, nay command you, as you
commanded Ohtar. Go! Take your burden, and at all costs bring it to the
Keepers [ie. of the Three Rings]: even at the cost of abandoning our men
and me."

There is absolutely no support for your assertions that Isildur "found
himself invisible, confused, and panicky" and "ran away and left his
troops to die instead".

Returning to the issue of the pain, we read later, after Isildur has
lost the Ring, that: "The pain had left him. A great burden had been
taken away."

There is no specific mention of pain in the corresponding moment with
Frodo, but there is mention of the burden:

"...there was Frodo, pale and worn, and yet himself again; and in his
eyes there was peace now, neither strain of will, nor madness, nor any
fear. His burden was taken away." (Mount Doom)

And we read this earlier about the burden and the pain of the burden:

"Sam guessed that among all their pains he [Frodo] bore the worst, the
growing weight of the Ring, a burden on the body and a torment to his
mind." (Mount Doom)

Now, Isildur has carried the Ring for several years. Initially he took
it up on the slopes of Mount Doom and had to carry it out of Mordor.
Sauron was not active, but he was also not long vanquished. Is it too
much of a stretch to hypothesise that the Ring was having an effect on
Isildur similar to the effect it had on Frodo?

Absolutely no need to invoke "Ring heat".

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Re: Ring heat [message #278272 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 10:13

Christopher Kreuzer

Phlip <phlipcpp [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
>> That scene is from 'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields' in
>> /Unfinished Tales/, and Isildur says earlier that he "dreads the
>> pain of touching it". The corresponding footnote mentions the
>> passage in LotR where Gandalf recounts his reading of the scroll of
>> Isildur: "[Isildur:] my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever
>> again I shall be free of the pain of it." (The Council of Elrond)
>
> He cried out when putting it on.

Yes. That should lead the attentive reader back to the "dread the pain
of touching it" comment. He has touched it by putting it on. There is
even a helpful footnote to remind the reader about the never again be
"free of the pain of it" comment that Isildur has put in the scroll -
this could be the ongoing pain of an unhealed burn - so putting
_anything_ on his hand would cause pain. But it does seem to be more
than that.

> Compare Gandalf throwing the Ring into Frodo's fireplace, and fishing
> it out with tongs. It stayed cool.

There is no suggestion, in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, that the
Ring was heated up by an external source to produce Isildur's pain, and
there is no reason to suppose it heated itself up.

> I think (regardless of our resident tolkienologists' capacity for
> quoting) that the Ring resisted changing its temperature.

Temperature change can be a funny thing.

I recounted a theory involving latent heat, which I think I read
somewhere else. Have a look at this post from 11 April 2006:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/ 9cc6f96f7116dfb4

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Re: Ring heat [message #278273 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 10:13

Phlip

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> Absolutely no need to invoke "Ring heat".

I find posting here difficult when everyone leaps on canon to disprove that
which I did not attempt to prove. My words: 'The "psychological scar" theory
is also relevant'.

I suppose helping you write "absolutely" less often won't work. ;-)

--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Re: Ring heat [message #278276 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 10:23

Phlip

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/ 9cc6f96f7116dfb4

Oh, my! An adequate and internally-supported pseudo-science explaination for
why the ring fits on large hot fingers as well as small warm ones! ;-)

( Let's not discuss Gollum putting it on, diving into cold water, and
getting squeezed ;-)

And the answer to your last question is a "Superelastic Shape Memory Alloy".

Dude, you are so close to checking into the nearest volcano with a
metallurgy kit and trying it out! Remember us little folk afterwards, okay?

--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Re: Ring heat [message #278278 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 10:32

Christopher Kreuzer

Phlip <phlipcpp [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
>> Absolutely no need to invoke "Ring heat".
>
> I find posting here difficult when everyone leaps on canon to
> disprove that which I did not attempt to prove. My words: 'The
> "psychological scar" theory is also relevant'.

Sorry. I should have realised you were retreating from your initial
position in your first post in this thread ("why was it still hot enough
to make Isildur cry out when he put it on").

And I don't think this is really an issue of canon versus non-canon.
That is more for big changes that Tolkien made from earlier writing and
in later writings. Changes that contradict the published works (the ones
published in his lifetime). Though there are debates over what is canon.
Ask Steuard (Jensen) - he wrote an essay on it! :-)

In the post where you talked about the psychological scar theory being
relevant, you also said:

"I thought it said the Ring burned him when he put it on."

I just wanted to make clear that I think this did not happen. Again,
sorry if you found my style a bit confrontational - it's not
intentional. Personally, I'm just trying to point out other, simpler,
theories, based directly on the text. Extrapolating outwards beyond that
is interesting, but should be clearly marked as such - call it
speculation or something, and if it contradicts something else, expect
people to jump on it! :-)

> I suppose helping you write "absolutely" less often won't work. ;-)

Absolutely it won't! :-)

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Re: Ring heat [message #278279 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 10:38

Troels Forchhammer

In message <news:MPG.1eec030a236796f98999e [at] newsgroups.comcast.net>
Tar-Elenion <tar_elenion [at] hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> UT:
> ""Atarinya," he said, "what of the power that would cow these foul
> creatures and command them to obey you? Is it then of no avail?"
> "Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of
> touching it.
[...].
> "Isildur turned west, and drawing up the Ring that hung in a
> wallet from a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger
> with a cry of pain,
[...].

Notably there is no mention of what is causing the pain -- nothing in
the account in UT suggests that the pain Isildur feels is due to any
actual heat in the Ring.

<snip LotR quotation>

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it
turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
- Anne Lamott

Re: Ring heat [message #278280 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 10:39

Phlip

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> In the post where you talked about the psychological scar theory being
> relevant, you also said:
>
> "I thought it said the Ring burned him when he put it on."

I want my heat theory to support "conservation of ringular momentum". The
ideal that the ring's strongest power, resisting change, causes the Ring to
resist changes to itself. Even "feeling heavy" demonstrates this effect, as
the Ring resists changes to its spacial position.

The psychological scar angle - which of course permantently impaired Frodo's
quality of life - is the primary effect of this permanence. Any ring heat
theory would be secondary.

--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Re: Ring heat [message #278281 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 10:43

Christopher Kreuzer

Phlip <phlipcpp [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
>>
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/ 9cc6f96f7116dfb4
>
> Oh, my! An adequate and internally-supported pseudo-science
> explaination for why the ring fits on large hot fingers as well as
> small warm ones! ;-)

LOL! I hadn't thought of it like that!

> ( Let's not discuss Gollum putting it on, diving into cold water, and
> getting squeezed ;-)

Hmm. I don't think it was ever worn underwater. In fact, this could
explain why Isildur lost it when he went into water...

> And the answer to your last question is a "Superelastic Shape Memory
> Alloy".

Thanks.

> Dude, you are so close to checking into the nearest volcano with a
> metallurgy kit and trying it out! Remember us little folk afterwards,
> okay?

<thinking>

"Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatuluk agh
burzum-ishi krimpatul!"

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

<dances around madly>

<trips>

Aaaagggghhh!
PPRRREEEEECCCCIIOOOOUUUSSS!!!

</thinking>

<ahem>
<throws metallurgy kit away>

Re: Ring heat [message #278282 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 10:53

Christopher Kreuzer

Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

[Isildur's pain touching the Ring]

<snip>

> Notably there is no mention of what is causing the pain -- nothing in
> the account in UT suggests that the pain Isildur feels is due to any
> actual heat in the Ring.

There seem to be two theories at the moment:

1) Hand is still burnt from previous touching of the Ring when it was
hot - hence anything touching that hand is painful. Against this is
Isildur's specific mention of the Ring causing pain, not just any
object.

2) The mental burden of the Ring causes pain. This is supported by the
case of Frodo, with quotes available to link Frodo's pain with the
burden of the Ring, and Isildur's loss of the burden with the end of the
pain. What is not clear is why Frodo putting on the Ring in Mount Doom
does not cause him pain.

And I'd like to put forth another theory:

3) The only difference seems to be that Frodo has not been burnt by the
Ring. It seems that Isildur's burn from the Ring has a magical aspect,
much like the wound Frodo received from the Morgul knife and Shelob's
sting - on the anniversaries, these wounds pain Frodo. Imagine touching
Frodo's shoulder wound with another Morgul knife - that might cause pain
to re-erupt in the old wound in much the same way that just touching the
Ring causes Isildur pain. This could have psychosomatic explanations,
but magic, in the context of a fantasy story, seems a better explanation
here. A lingering residue of magical effect, reactivated whenever the
magical object reappears.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Re: Ring heat [message #278284 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 11:01

Charilaos Velaris

> Hmm. I don't think it was ever worn underwater. In fact, this could
> explain why Isildur lost it when he went into water...

As far as I know, the Ring intentionally slipped off Isildur's finger:
1) to take revenge and 2) to eventually work its way back to Sauron. No
normal ring would slip off underwater, and I don't think Sauron would have
had a problem if (for some reason) he wished to keep it on underwater.

Re: Ring heat [message #278285 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 15:52

Troels Forchhammer

In message <news:4cxgg.80628$wl.32513 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> [Isildur's pain touching the Ring]
>
> There seem to be two theories at the moment:

I tried, on purpose, not to theorize, but to stick to what is actually
in the text (and what isn't).

The point in that is that all we can say is that it caused Isildur pain
to touch the One Ring, and any ideas (or guesses or speculations) with
regards to the exact source and nature of that pain are, to the best of
my knowledge, attempting to extrapolate beyond the actual texts.

That said, extrapolating is often fun ;)

> 1) Hand is still burnt from previous touching of the Ring when it
> was hot - hence anything touching that hand is painful. Against
> this is Isildur's specific mention of the Ring causing pain, not
> just any object.

Yes, it is the One Ring specifically that is causing Isildur the pain,
and though he may still have some lingering pain from the burning ('I
doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain'), but that is, in my
considered opinion, not what is meant by the words in UT.

> 2) The mental burden of the Ring causes pain. This is supported by
> the case of Frodo, with quotes available to link Frodo's pain with
> the burden of the Ring, and Isildur's loss of the burden with the
> end of the pain. What is not clear is why Frodo putting on the
> Ring in Mount Doom does not cause him pain.

What about Gollum and Bilbo -- are there any indication of actual pain
where they are involved? One might, of course, repair a bit by
requiring that the wearer needs to know precisely what he is wearing in
order for the Ring to cause pain, but that would, to me, have an
unfortunate feeling of an ad Hoc hypothesis . . .

> And I'd like to put forth another theory:
>
> 3) The only difference seems to be that Frodo has not been burnt
> by the Ring. It seems that Isildur's burn from the Ring has a
> magical aspect, much like the wound Frodo received from the Morgul
> knife and Shelob's sting - on the anniversaries, these wounds pain
> Frodo.

Yes. And there is also some effect on the anniversary for losing his
finger and the Ring.

This idea, that the memory of a wound can still hurt, is expressed
quite well in LotR VI,7 'Homeward Bound':

'Are you in pain, Frodo?' said Gandalf quietly as he
rode by Frodo's side.
'Well, yes I am,' said Frodo. 'It is my shoulder. The
wound aches, and the memory of darkness is heavy on me. It
was a year ago today.'
'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly
cured,' said Gandalf.

I suppose that we might find other examples as well -- I do seem to
recall something (a lost limb of some kind -- possibly Sauron's finger
or Beren's hand, I don't know), but this kind of thing is, in any case,
firmly established in Tolkien's writings.

> Imagine touching Frodo's shoulder wound with another Morgul knife -
> that might cause pain to re-erupt in the old wound in much the
> same way that just touching the Ring causes Isildur pain.

Quite likely. And who knows -- possibly Isildur felt a burning pain in
his hand on every anniversay (not that he saw that many) of the taking
of the Ring . . .

> This could have psychosomatic explanations, but magic, in the
> context of a fantasy story, seems a better explanation here.

'Whatever works for you,' I'd say (using 'you' in the general sense).
If you think that Frodo's illnesses on the various anniversaries are
psychosomatic, then this would also be psychosomatic, but if you like
to believe it's magic, then that will be the best explanation.
Personally I would also prefer the magical explanation.

> A lingering residue of magical effect, reactivated whenever
> the magical object reappears.

Or is touched again, yes.

Yet another (that'd be the fourth, wouldn't it?) explanation might be
that the One Ring is deliberately (by purpose or by built-in design)
causing the pain as a punishment for removing it from Sauron (not a
very likely idea, perhaps, but I though it ought to be mentioned
anyway).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

The errors hardest
to condone
in other people
are one's own.
- Piet Hein, /Our Own Motes/

Re: Ring heat [message #278286 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 18:40

Stan Brown

4 Jun 2006 13:52:28 GMT from Troels Forchhammer
<Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid>:
> What about Gollum and Bilbo -- are there any indication of actual pain
> where they are involved?

Gollum "kept it in a pouch next his skin, till it galled him", but
that could have been the pouch itself rubbing on skin.

Bilbo doesn't mention any pain at all from putting it on, and nether
does Frodo as best I can recall.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
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FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

Re: Ring heat [message #278287 ]

So, 04 Juni 2006 18:44

Stan Brown

from Phlip <phlipcpp [at] yahoo.com>:
> I think (regardless of our resident tolkienologists' capacity for quoting)

and in a later article:

> I find posting here difficult when everyone leaps on canon to disprove that
> which I did not attempt to prove.

You made some other pejorative reference to people quoting from
Tolkien's actual words where you yourself were working only from
memory. Might I suggest that quoting from Tolkien's actual words is
superior to working from memory?

As for "what you did not attempt to prove", when several people
misread a writer, perhaps the writer must share in the blame for not
writing clearly enough?

If you don't want to talk about the heat of the Ring, then you made a
singularly infelicitous choice of Subject line. :-)

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

Re: Ring heat [message #278303 ]

Mo, 05 Juni 2006 15:30

nfw

Christopher Kreuzer a écrit :
> Hmm. I don't think it was ever worn underwater. In fact, this could
> explain why Isildur lost it when he went into water...

Ulmo?

--
nfw - brasseur grandefaux com
à point

Re: Ring heat [message #282512 ]

Di, 06 Juni 2006 11:13

Charilaos Velaris

"nfw" <sp [at] m.invalid> a écrit dans le message de news:
wlWgg.36815$3e2.209487 [at] wagner.videotron.net...
> Christopher Kreuzer a écrit :
>> Hmm. I don't think it was ever worn underwater. In fact, this could
>> explain why Isildur lost it when he went into water...
>
> Ulmo?
>

More likely Ossë. He was in charge of rivers and coastal waters and was much
more intervenrtionist in the First Age... But I wouldn't go down that line.
Why would the Valar want Isildur killed?

Re: Ring heat [message #282513 ]

Di, 06 Juni 2006 11:29

Charilaos Velaris

"Troels Forchhammer" <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> a écrit dans le message de
news: Xns97D8A36FCB32BT.Forch [at] 130.133.1.4...
>
> What about Gollum and Bilbo -- are there any indication of actual pain
> where they are involved? One might, of course, repair a bit by
> requiring that the wearer needs to know precisely what he is wearing in
> order for the Ring to cause pain, but that would, to me, have an
> unfortunate feeling of an ad Hoc hypothesis . . .

We don't know that Bilbo experienced any pain by wearing the Ring, but then
again I think the Ring wanted him to find it, so it could get out of the
cave and make its way back to Sauron. As for Gollum, he certainly suffered
immense psychological pain. Whether the Ring caused him any physical pain is
not known but, to me, Isildur's account of his hand burning is remarkably
similar (allowing for the difference in style) to Gollum's description of
how the "black hand" burns (can't quote at the moment _ it's the point where
he says that Sauron is missing a finger). Isildur would have had to take the
Ring off Sauron's finger after he cut it off. I think that's when he was
burned.

>> This could have psychosomatic explanations, but magic, in the
>> context of a fantasy story, seems a better explanation here.
>
> 'Whatever works for you,' I'd say (using 'you' in the general sense).
> If you think that Frodo's illnesses on the various anniversaries are
> psychosomatic, then this would also be psychosomatic, but if you like
> to believe it's magic, then that will be the best explanation.
> Personally I would also prefer the magical explanation.

Tolkien took pains to add a certain amount of realism to his text, rather
than simply explaining everything away by magic. You don't have to be a
psychologist to figure out that one would cringe at the sight of an object
which has caused him excruciating pain.

Re: Ring heat [message #282517 ]

Di, 06 Juni 2006 15:26

Troels Forchhammer

In message <news:44854e34$0$822$ba4acef3 [at] news.orange.fr>
"Charilaos Velaris" <velaris.charilaos [at] wanadoo.fr> enriched us with:
>
> "Troels Forchhammer" <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> a écrit dans le
> message de news: Xns97D8A36FCB32BT.Forch [at] 130.133.1.4...
>>
[...]
> We don't know that Bilbo experienced any pain by wearing the Ring,
> but then again I think the Ring wanted him to find it, so it could
> get out of the cave and make its way back to Sauron.

As I read Gandalf's statements in LotR I,2 'The Shadow of the Past',
that is certainly not the case.

'Behind that there was something else at work, beyond
any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than
by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by
its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.
And that maybe an encouraging thought.'

The Ring clearly deserted Gollum, but the finding by Bilbo in
particular was governed by some other Power. Whether the Ring, once
found by Bilbo, resented him as bearer or not is another question --
the Hobbit is not, I'd say, an entirely reliable source for such
details as the role of the Ring didn't emerge until later (at which
point only the most critical editing was done: to remove the suggestion
that Gollum would have voluntarily parted with the Ring).

> As for Gollum, he certainly suffered immense psychological pain.

From touching the Ring? Actually, to the best of my knowledge he never
does actually touch it.

He suffered from fear of Sauron and the Ringwraiths, and had
doubtlessly suffered much pain from their side, but I don't think that
there is evidence of a psychosomatic pain related directly to the Ring.

There is ample evidence of a strong addiction, including love/hate
ambiguity, and

> Whether the Ring caused him any physical pain is not known but,
> to me, Isildur's account of his hand burning is remarkably similar
> (allowing for the difference in style) to Gollum's description of
> how the "black hand" burns (can't quote at the moment _ it's the
> point where he says that Sauron is missing a finger).

All he said about Sauron at that point is:
'Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are
enough,' said Gollum shuddering. 'And He hated Isildur's
city.'
[LotR IV,3 'The Black Gate is Closed']

Gollum mentions the Black Hand a few times, but that is all -- he
doesn't speak of the pain caused by Sauron (though I don't doubt that
he was tortured in Barad-dûr and quite likely burned by Sauron's hand).

There are, for Gollum, his reaction to the Elven rope ('It hurts us',
'it freezes, it bites! Elves twisted it, curse them!') and the lembas
('He spat, and a fit of coughing shook him'), but that is not related
to the Ring, but rather the reverse.

> Isildur would have had to take the Ring off Sauron's finger after
> he cut it off. I think that's when he was burned.

Isildur did state explicitly that the Ring was hot as a glede, but then
he also added the surmise that the cooling was because it missed 'the
heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire,' which
seems a reasonable idea. Whether or no he had to take it off the finger
(if the cut was right by the Ring, it would have fallen off without
Isildur touching Sauron's hand) the two would have the same
temperature, so it doesn't really matter.

[...]
>> Personally I would also prefer the magical explanation.
>
> Tolkien took pains to add a certain amount of realism to his text,
> rather than simply explaining everything away by magic.

Both yes and no. This applies for humans, but for Elves and other
magical people, the magic is everywhere. The Elves, for instance,
doesn't make a simple rope without some measure of what we would call
magic (but which is, to them, simply the way things are -- the fusion
of craftsmanship and Art that happens because the Elves 'put the
thought of all that [they] love into all that [they] make'.

But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the
difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of
its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more
complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence).
And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not
domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation. The
'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes:
and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens
of deathlessness in time and change, than with death.
[Letter #131, To Milton Waldman, late 1951?]

> You don't have to be a psychologist to figure out that one would
> cringe at the sight of an object which has caused him excruciating
> pain.

If it was only the cringing, I'd agree, but I think it's quite clear
that there is more to it. Isildur speaks of actual pain caused by
touching the Ring (a statement which the 'cry of pain' refers back to),
and in a similar vein we have Frodo's anniversay-illnesses and Gollum's
reactions to the elvish artefacts.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true.
- Niels Bohr, to a young physicist

Re: Ring heat [message #282527 ]

Di, 06 Juni 2006 20:19

Christopher Kreuzer

Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> In message <news:44854e34$0$822$ba4acef3 [at] news.orange.fr>
> "Charilaos Velaris" <velaris.charilaos [at] wanadoo.fr> enriched us with:

<snip>

>> As for Gollum, he certainly suffered immense psychological pain.
>
> From touching the Ring? Actually, to the best of my knowledge he never
> does actually touch it.

Not in LotR, unless you count Gandalf's tale of Smeagol discovering and
using the Ring. In /The Hobbit/ we are told that Gollum did use the
Ring.

<snip rest - no disagreements there>

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Re: Ring heat [message #282535 ]

Di, 06 Juni 2006 21:22

Troels Forchhammer

In message <news:MGjhg.81925$wl.55268 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard [at] blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer <Troels [at] ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>

[Gollum and the One Ring]

>> Actually, to the best of my knowledge he never does actually
>> touch it.
>
> Not in LotR, unless you count Gandalf's tale of Smeagol
> discovering and using the Ring. In /The Hobbit/ we are told that
> Gollum did use the Ring.

You're right, of course, thanks. I forgot to put that 'on-stage' in
there that I (believe I) had in mind when I wrote it; sorry.

Naturally Gollum touched the One Ring at some point -- several times.
The first being after he took it from Déagol (he also found out that
wearing it made him invisible). The problem with regards to the present
discussion is that we never learn anything about how he reacts to the
touch of it, and basically all that we learn about his reactions to the
Ring is from his withdrawal symptoms at a point when the Ring (unless
we count Gandalf's story about his initial attraction to it).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Scientific reasoning works only with measurements: only
when we have a number and a unit. Thus, topics for which
we have no measurements, scientific investigation is not
useful. No math, no science. When we do have
measurements, scientific reasoning cannot be ignored.
- Dr Nancy's Sweetie on usenet
Message-ID: <ds159c$p45$1 [at] pcls4.std.com>

Re: Ring heat [message #282537 ]

Di, 06 Juni 2006 21:41

Phlip

Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> Naturally Gollum touched the One Ring at some point -- several times.

Hypothesis: Gollum resisted wraithification because he was more sensitive
than a human. The Ring addicted him - at first because invisibility let
him get away with murder - and he always used, claimed, and wielded it.

But its evil radiations irritated him, until he couldn't even bear to
carry it at all times. He left it safe in a hole in his rocky island.

The hypothesis is that humans with similar rings experience the addiction
stronger than the evilness. They bear and wear their rings chronically,
until the irritation converts into the cold glow of an eternal twilight.

--
Phlip

Re: Ring heat [message #282542 ]

Di, 06 Juni 2006 23:37

Christopher Kreuzer

phlip <phlip2005 [at] gEEEmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> the cold glow of an eternal twilight.

Ooh! I _like_ that phrase. :-)
Can I file that away to use later?

Reminds me of the "afterglow of creation" bit from Clarke, where he too
talks about a long twilight.

Hmm. While looking up that Clarke quote, I came across this essay for
the Skeptical Inquirer, from 2001:

http://tinyurl.com/pd6xz

Particularly relevant, given that the topic of evil has been discussed
on these newsgroups, is:

"Nor does the "problem of evil" exist; it is an inevitable consequence
of the bell-shaped curve of normal distribution."

Hmm. A mention of Lewis as well:

"Let me offer an analogy, suggested by a conversation I once had with
C.S. Lewis. We science fiction authors are always picking each other's
brain, and Lewis asked me what the horizon would look like (ignoring
atmospheric absorption) on a really enormous planet--one not thousands,
but millions, of kilometers in radius."

And finally, the talk ended with Clarke quoting his own words from his
great book /Profiles of the Future/, and the amazing chapter 'The Long
Twilight', where he says:

"Our galaxy is now in the brief springtime of its life [...] Not until
[stars like the Sun] have flamed through their incandescent youth, in a
few fleeting billions of years, will the real history of the universe
begin. It will be a history illuminated only by the reds and infrareds
of dully glowing stars that would be almost invisible to our eyes; yet
the somber hues of that all-but-eternal universe may be full of color
and beauty to whatever strange beings have adapted to it [...] before
them [will lie] years to be counted literally in trillions."

This what I was reminded of by the phrase "cold glow of an eternal
twilight". Clarke finishes by talking about how the inhabitants of what
I will now call the 'eternal twilight', will be like gods, but that
still they:

"...may envy us, basking in the bright afterglow of Creation; for we
knew the universe when it was young."

This vaguely reminds me of the situation with Men and Elves in Tolkien's
writings. But the analogy doesn't quite work.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Re: Ring heat [message #282544 ]

Mi, 07 Juni 2006 00:28

Troels Forchhammer

In message <news:pan.2006.06.06.19.41.33.462594 [at] gEEEmail.com>
phlip <phlip2005 [at] gEEEmail.com> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> Naturally Gollum touched the One Ring at some point -- several
>> times.
>
> Hypothesis: Gollum resisted wraithification because he was more
> sensitive than a human.

Gollum was a human.

Within the story, the whole thing is explained by Gandalf as some kind
of extra resistance possessed by Hobbits to the domination of the Ring.
It is not clear, I think, whether this extra resistance is in
comparison to Men (the Big People as they would say in Bree) or a more
general comparison (though obviously the Dwarves were completely immune
to the wraitification and domination).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not
imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They
laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed
at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the
Clown.
- Carl Sagan

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