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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny.
| Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278132] |
So, 04 Juni 2006 19:49 |
|
I once read an article where the author stated that for himself and his
friends, their future wife was always the first girlfriend who saw
through the guy's BS and called him on it. The man's reaction (to
his own surprise) was not anger, but "Hey! Good for you." I was
reminded of this recently when I read some of C.S. Lewis A GRIEF
OBSERVED, wherein he describes his late wife in exactly the same way,
as the one who saw through his fatuousness and pretensions. A guy's
mate is his "better half", in this sense, not because she is a
better PERSON than he is, but because she keeps him honest to his own
better self - something Lewis and the men in the article obviously
valued.
Thinking of this made me realize what bothers me about Harry and Ginny
as a couple. Ginny never calls Harry on his BS. Rather she encourages
his BS. And in fact, has the exact same BS herself. Rather than being
his "Better Half", or he hers, they seem to encourage each
other's negative traits. She defends his use of Dark Magic on Draco
Malfoy, actually saying that Hermione "should be glad" that he had
such a trick up his sleeve. She, like Harry, encourages the twin's
meanness against Dudley and Percy. She is like a junior, distaff
version of Harry himself, in both Quiddich and life.
Another problem is that Harry doesn't seem to care about Ginny much.
It never even occurs to him to come to her defense in Year 2, when the
twins are bullying her. Compare the Book 5 scene where she reminds
Harry she has been possessed by Voldemort, to the Book 4 scene where
Harry finds out about Neville's parents. In the latter, Harry is
shocked at himself, overcome with compassion for Neville, and disgusted
that he had never bothered to ask or wonder. It is a very moving
scene, and a reaction that did Harry great credit. In the scene with
Ginny, however, Harry merely seems somewhat abashed, and there
doesn't seem to be much emotion towards Ginny at all. In the entire
series, there is no scene which has Harry as compassionately interested
in her, or as emotionally moved towards her, as he is elsewhere towards
Neville, Luna, or Hermione.
Even Cho Chang actually engaged more of Harry's interest and he put
more effort into figuring her out. Cho challenged Harry to talk about
his feelings, pay attention to HER feelings and recent trauma, and
stood up to him about his bullying tendencies. We don't see Harry
putting any such effort into Ginny, and she doesn't challenge him to.
She is happy just to snog and talk Quiddich, without any nasty talking
about feelings or challenging his tendency to bully, which I guess is
perfect from Harry's pov, if not my own.
This is a shame. I liked Ginny to start with, and I think that she
would have turned out better as a character in her own right, rather
than Harry's girl. To my mind it is not a role which suits her, or
does him much good either.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278137 ] |
So, 04 Juni 2006 20:39 |
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Karnak17 wrote:
> I once read an article where the author stated that for himself and his
> friends, their future wife was always the first girlfriend who saw
> through the guy's BS and called him on it. The man's reaction (to
> his own surprise) was not anger, but "Hey! Good for you." I was
> reminded of this recently when I read some of C.S. Lewis A GRIEF
> OBSERVED, wherein he describes his late wife in exactly the same way,
> as the one who saw through his fatuousness and pretensions. A guy's
> mate is his "better half", in this sense, not because she is a
> better PERSON than he is, but because she keeps him honest to his own
> better self - something Lewis and the men in the article obviously
> valued.
>
> Thinking of this made me realize what bothers me about Harry and Ginny
> as a couple. Ginny never calls Harry on his BS. Rather she encourages
> his BS. And in fact, has the exact same BS herself. Rather than being
> his "Better Half", or he hers, they seem to encourage each
> other's negative traits. She defends his use of Dark Magic on Draco
> Malfoy, actually saying that Hermione "should be glad" that he had
> such a trick up his sleeve. She, like Harry, encourages the twin's
> meanness against Dudley and Percy. She is like a junior, distaff
> version of Harry himself, in both Quiddich and life.
For the past year people had been telling him that on, say, the issue of
Draco working for Voldemort, that he was getting too obsessed and
getting into black-helicopter/tin-foil-hat territory. Then we find out
that Harry was AFR (absolutely right) and his friends were DFW (dead wrong).
If Harry had made a habit of being guided by others, he'd (a) be in
Slytherin, (b) wouldn't have prevented the Stone from being captured by
Quirrel, (c) wouldn't have rescued Ginny from Diary Tom, (d) would have
sat in his dorm and let Sirius Black be killed, (e) not opposed
Umbridge, and (f) would have turned in the book that enabled him to save
Ron's life.
I daresay Harry has earned the right to view the advice of others with a
degree of care.
Regards,
John
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278149 ] |
So, 04 Juni 2006 23:40 |
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John VanSickle wrote:
> Karnak17 wrote:
>
> > I once read an article where the author stated that for himself and his
> > friends, their future wife was always the first girlfriend who saw
> > through the guy's BS and called him on it. The man's reaction (to
> > his own surprise) was not anger, but "Hey! Good for you." I was
> > reminded of this recently when I read some of C.S. Lewis A GRIEF
> > OBSERVED, wherein he describes his late wife in exactly the same way,
> > as the one who saw through his fatuousness and pretensions. A guy's
> > mate is his "better half", in this sense, not because she is a
> > better PERSON than he is, but because she keeps him honest to his own
> > better self - something Lewis and the men in the article obviously
> > valued.
> >
> > Thinking of this made me realize what bothers me about Harry and Ginny
> > as a couple. Ginny never calls Harry on his BS. Rather she encourages
> > his BS. And in fact, has the exact same BS herself. Rather than being
> > his "Better Half", or he hers, they seem to encourage each
> > other's negative traits. She defends his use of Dark Magic on Draco
> > Malfoy, actually saying that Hermione "should be glad" that he had
> > such a trick up his sleeve. She, like Harry, encourages the twin's
> > meanness against Dudley and Percy. She is like a junior, distaff
> > version of Harry himself, in both Quiddich and life.
>
> For the past year people had been telling him that on, say, the issue of
> Draco working for Voldemort, that he was getting too obsessed and
> getting into black-helicopter/tin-foil-hat territory. Then we find out
> that Harry was AFR (absolutely right) and his friends were DFW (dead wrong).
>
> If Harry had made a habit of being guided by others, he'd (a) be in
> Slytherin, (b) wouldn't have prevented the Stone from being captured by
> Quirrel, (c) wouldn't have rescued Ginny from Diary Tom, (d) would have
> sat in his dorm and let Sirius Black be killed, (e) not opposed
> Umbridge, and (f) would have turned in the book that enabled him to save
> Ron's life.
>
> I daresay Harry has earned the right to view the advice of others with a
> degree of care.
Unless you are under the impression that I believe Harry should blindly
obey Ginny Weasley in all things (which I don't), I don't see how your
point relates to my point.
BTW, it was BECAUSE Harry refused to listen to the advice of others --
namely Hermione Granger's -- that Sirius Black was killed in the first
place. Sirius was killed while trying to rescue Harry from his own
stubborness and stupidity. When Hermione was trying to talk Harry out
of storming the Ministry, Sirius was happy and safe at home tending to
an injured Buckbeak.
All people should view the advice of others with "a degree of care".
They should also view their own passions and prejudices and certainties
(i.e. self delusions) with a similar degree of care, which was what
Hermione was trying to get Harry to do in OotP.
Ginny was not telling Harry what to do, or giving him advice, when she
insisted that Hermione "should be glad" he'd Sectumsempre'd Draco
Malfoy. What she WAS doing was coming between Harry and his own better
half -- his OWN consciousness of wrongdoing.
When I talk about a "better half", I am not referring to the someone
who gives us the best advice on stock options. I am referring to
someone who sees truths about US that we are dimly aware of, but left
to ourselves would choose to pretend to ignore, or not act upon. Who
sees through our own self-deceit. Like Hermione's lecture on Harry's
"saving people thing", or her remarks about Quiddich provoking hatred
and ill feeling between houses, or Luna's "uncomforatable truths", or
Neville's uncanny ability to get Harry to think unselfishly about
somebody else just by existing.
Ginny doesn't do any of these things. She's just Harry Junior in drag.
He might as well dye his hair red and date himself.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278153 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 01:18 |
|
In article <1149457223.233487.240120 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
says...
>
>
<<SNIP>>
>
From an adult perspective, I agree with you. But if I put myself in the shoes of
a young reader, I'd say that Ginny seems an OK match for Harry. Teens and
pre-teens aren't yet old enough to appreciate the kind of significant other you
are talking about. It's enough that Ginny was shown to be pretty, popular and
athletic. In Ginny, Harry found exactly what he was looking for before, with
Cho.
--
Joe
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278166 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 07:59 |
|
In article <1149443392.338365.112530 [at] i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Karnak17 <karnak17 [at] cs.com> writes
>I once read an article where the author stated that for himself and his
>friends, their future wife was always the first girlfriend who saw
>through the guy's BS and called him on it. The man's reaction (to
>his own surprise) was not anger, but "Hey! Good for you." I was
>reminded of this recently when I read some of C.S. Lewis A GRIEF
>OBSERVED, wherein he describes his late wife in exactly the same way,
>as the one who saw through his fatuousness and pretensions. A guy's
>mate is his "better half", in this sense, not because she is a
>better PERSON than he is, but because she keeps him honest to his own
>better self - something Lewis and the men in the article obviously
>valued.
>
>Thinking of this made me realize what bothers me about Harry and Ginny
>as a couple. Ginny never calls Harry on his BS. Rather she encourages
>his BS. And in fact, has the exact same BS herself. Rather than being
>his "Better Half", or he hers, they seem to encourage each
>other's negative traits. She defends his use of Dark Magic on Draco
>Malfoy, actually saying that Hermione "should be glad" that he had
>such a trick up his sleeve. She, like Harry, encourages the twin's
>meanness against Dudley and Percy. She is like a junior, distaff
>version of Harry himself, in both Quiddich and life.
>
OTP "Christmas on the closed ward"
'I didn't want anyone to talk to me,' said Harry, who was feeling more
and more nettled.
'Well, that was a bit stupid of you,' said Ginny angrily, 'seeing as you
don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can
tell you how it feels.'
.....
I put that in to query your 'never', but I think what you describe does
apply to Ron & Hermione's relationship much more strongly than to Harry
& Ginny's. I think that there can be many factors building a
relationship, and that different relationships can have them at
different relative strengths. Harry does not spend a lot of time
thinking about his decision-making skills; despite the glasses, he is a
sports fan and player, who puts at least as much emphasis on snap
judgements and luck, or guts, as he does on careful consideration.
OTP "The Hogwarts High Inquisitor"
"You think it's just memorising a bunch of spells and throwing them at
him, like you're in class or something?... like you can think straight
when you know you're about a nanosecond from being murdered, or
tortured, or watching your friends die... they've never taught us that
in their classes, what it's like to deal with things like that..."
Harry has twice gone for two very pretty girls who are also keen
Quidditch players with guts (Cho fell apart over Diggory, but before
that she kept on playing Quidditch despite problems with injuries). With
Ginny, he also knows that she has had a crush on him since she was 10,
which has got at least to attract his attention.
In RL, I was on a short course with a woman about to get married. She
was quite outspoken, so I don't think the following was entirely BS. She
was over 6 foot, and despised small men, especially small men who made
advances towards her. She was about to get married, and as far as I
could tell the main reason for choosing the man she was about to get
married to was that he was noticeably taller that she was. I thought
this was really stupid, but then I wondered... A lot of things can
happen to people after they get married. He could put on weight, turn to
drink, lose all his hair, and even lose interest in her. But he'll still
be taller than she is. So who was I to judge?
--
A.G.McDowell
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278177 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 15:25 |
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On 4 Jun 2006 10:49:52 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:
>
>Thinking of this made me realize what bothers me about Harry and Ginny
>as a couple. Ginny never calls Harry on his BS. Rather she encourages
>his BS. And in fact, has the exact same BS herself. Rather than being
>his "Better Half", or he hers, they seem to encourage each
>other's negative traits. She defends his use of Dark Magic on Draco
>Malfoy, actually saying that Hermione "should be glad" that he had
>such a trick up his sleeve. She, like Harry, encourages the twin's
>meanness against Dudley and Percy. She is like a junior, distaff
>version of Harry himself, in both Quiddich and life.
Well, you can't base every relationship off of BS bashing. Most
people do not meet this criteria. Very few even look for it in a
mate, let alone want it. If this is a major criteria for mating,
you'll never find one. IRL or in books between characters.
>Another problem is that Harry doesn't seem to care about Ginny much.
>It never even occurs to him to come to her defense in Year 2, when the
>twins are bullying her.
Defend her against her brothers, who are always bullying their younger
sibs? Doubtful. very few interfere with family dynamics unless it's
excessive.
> Compare the Book 5 scene where she reminds
>Harry she has been possessed by Voldemort, to the Book 4 scene where
>Harry finds out about Neville's parents. In the latter, Harry is
>shocked at himself, overcome with compassion for Neville, and disgusted
>that he had never bothered to ask or wonder. It is a very moving
>scene, and a reaction that did Harry great credit. In the scene with
>Ginny, however, Harry merely seems somewhat abashed, and there
>doesn't seem to be much emotion towards Ginny at all. In the entire
>series, there is no scene which has Harry as compassionately interested
>in her, or as emotionally moved towards her, as he is elsewhere towards
>Neville, Luna, or Hermione.
She's always been his best mate's little sister. Very hard to
overcome that. Course, he did risk life and limb to save her in COS.
>Even Cho Chang actually engaged more of Harry's interest and he put
>more effort into figuring her out. Cho challenged Harry to talk about
>his feelings, pay attention to HER feelings and recent trauma, and
>stood up to him about his bullying tendencies. We don't see Harry
>putting any such effort into Ginny, and she doesn't challenge him to.
> She is happy just to snog and talk Quiddich, without any nasty talking
>about feelings or challenging his tendency to bully, which I guess is
>perfect from Harry's pov, if not my own.
>
>This is a shame. I liked Ginny to start with, and I think that she
>would have turned out better as a character in her own right, rather
>than Harry's girl. To my mind it is not a role which suits her, or
>does him much good either.
There was no real build up. She went from crushing to friend for 3
years, to sudden girlfriend. Juts like that Harry began feeling
jealous towards any guy with her. Why? and Ginn herself, follows
Hermione's advice to forget Harry since he's not interested and dates
round. All the while, She's still secretly pining away for him. She's
biding her time, having motionless flings, misleading the guys, and
her popularity among the boy is wrong because her heart's not in it.
It's like a game to her. How many guys can I seduce and destroy?
And then all of a sudden she and Harry are together. No real bonding.
yelling at him for forgetting she was possessed by V doesn't count.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278178 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 15:31 |
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On 4 Jun 2006 14:40:23 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:
> Sirius was happy and safe at home tending to
>an injured Buckbeak.
He wasn't happy. He was quite miserable. He was only happen during
vacations when everybody was staying in his house, and he finally had
a real family again.
>He might as well dye his hair red and date himself.
Must fight memory's of Homer Simpson in Marge wig, talking like her,
not needing Mareg anymore. ACK! I failed.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278179 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 15:32 |
|
On 4 Jun 2006 16:18:09 -0700, Joe Curwen <jcurwen [at] freeonline.com>
wrote:
>In article <1149457223.233487.240120 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
>says...
>>
>>
><<SNIP>>
>>
>
>From an adult perspective, I agree with you. But if I put myself in the shoes of
>a young reader, I'd say that Ginny seems an OK match for Harry. Teens and
>pre-teens aren't yet old enough to appreciate the kind of significant other you
>are talking about. It's enough that Ginny was shown to be pretty, popular and
>athletic. In Ginny, Harry found exactly what he was looking for before, with
>Cho.
I think he wants an equal in Quidditch. Gives him a challenge.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278182 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 16:26 |
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Toon wrote:
> On 4 Jun 2006 16:18:09 -0700, Joe Curwen <jcurwen [at] freeonline.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <1149457223.233487.240120 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
> >says...
> >>
> >>
> ><<SNIP>>
> >>
> >
> >From an adult perspective, I agree with you. But if I put myself in the shoes of
> >a young reader, I'd say that Ginny seems an OK match for Harry. Teens and
> >pre-teens aren't yet old enough to appreciate the kind of significant other you
> >are talking about. It's enough that Ginny was shown to be pretty, popular and
> >athletic. In Ginny, Harry found exactly what he was looking for before, with
> >Cho.
>
> I think he wants an equal in Quidditch. Gives him a challenge.
I think what's funny/strange is how JK had Ginny do a complete 180 in
the books, changing her character to an almost different person. IMO,
it didn't even seem gradual. It was as if all of a sudden she
transformed from a shy wallflower to the "wonder woman" of
Hogwarts...LOL. I definitely can see the "new" Ginny with Harry,
someone who seems to be his emotional and mental equal...(although,
LOL, considering his behavior in OOTP, that's not saying much!)
|
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278188 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 17:45 |
|
On 2006-06-05 10:26:49 -0400, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com said:
>
> Toon wrote:
>> On 4 Jun 2006 16:18:09 -0700, Joe Curwen <jcurwen [at] freeonline.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <1149457223.233487.240120 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>>
>>> <<SNIP>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> From an adult perspective, I agree with you. But if I put myself in the
>>> shoes of
>>> a young reader, I'd say that Ginny seems an OK match for Harry. Teens and
>>> pre-teens aren't yet old enough to appreciate the kind of significant other you
>>> are talking about. It's enough that Ginny was shown to be pretty, popular and
>>> athletic. In Ginny, Harry found exactly what he was looking for before, with
>>> Cho.
>>
>> I think he wants an equal in Quidditch. Gives him a challenge.
>
>
> I think what's funny/strange is how JK had Ginny do a complete 180 in
> the books, changing her character to an almost different person. IMO,
> it didn't even seem gradual. It was as if all of a sudden she
> transformed from a shy wallflower to the "wonder woman" of
> Hogwarts...LOL. I definitely can see the "new" Ginny with Harry,
> someone who seems to be his emotional and mental equal...(although,
> LOL, considering his behavior in OOTP, that's not saying much!)
Perhaps she didn't do a 180. We see her through Harry's point of
view. That's how he saw, her it doesn't necessarily mean that's
the way she actually was. As we learn more about her, we discover
she has a history of being a pretty tough girl. She had to in order
to defend herself from the twins. Please note, they had a much
greater respect for (fear of) her than they did Ron.
--
Enjoy,
Zolak of Twylo
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278189 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 17:47 |
|
On 2006-06-05 09:25:40 -0400, Toon <toon [at] toon.com> said:
>
> There was no real build up. She went from crushing to friend for 3
> years, to sudden girlfriend. Juts like that Harry began feeling
> jealous towards any guy with her. Why? and Ginn herself, follows
> Hermione's advice to forget Harry since he's not interested and dates
> round. All the while, She's still secretly pining away for him. She's
> biding her time, having motionless flings, misleading the guys, and
> her popularity among the boy is wrong because her heart's not in it.
> It's like a game to her. How many guys can I seduce and destroy?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
You're reading way too much into Ginny's actions here. Have you
forgotten what teenage life is like?
--
Enjoy,
Zolak of Twylo
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278194 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 18:01 |
|
In article <1149517609.566881.69250 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com says...
>
>
>Toon wrote:
>> On 4 Jun 2006 16:18:09 -0700, Joe Curwen <jcurwen [at] freeonline.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <1149457223.233487.240120 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
>> >says...
>> >>
>> >>
>> ><<SNIP>>
>> >>
>> >
>>>From an adult perspective, I agree with you. But if I put myself in the shoes
>>of
>> >a young reader, I'd say that Ginny seems an OK match for Harry. Teens and
>>>pre-teens aren't yet old enough to appreciate the kind of significant other you
>>>are talking about. It's enough that Ginny was shown to be pretty, popular and
>> >athletic. In Ginny, Harry found exactly what he was looking for before, with
>> >Cho.
>>
>> I think he wants an equal in Quidditch. Gives him a challenge.
>
>
>I think what's funny/strange is how JK had Ginny do a complete 180 in
>the books, changing her character to an almost different person. IMO,
>it didn't even seem gradual. It was as if all of a sudden she
>transformed from a shy wallflower to the "wonder woman" of
>Hogwarts...LOL. I definitely can see the "new" Ginny with Harry,
>someone who seems to be his emotional and mental equal...(although,
>LOL, considering his behavior in OOTP, that's not saying much!)
>
The change was abrupt because the story is written from Harry's perspective, and
Ginny was shy around him until his fifth year. By then Harry was involved with
Cho and other stuff, so he (and consequently us) didn't really notice the change
until Book 6. JK did mention a time or two that Ginny was quite different when
away from Harry's eyes, and that was all the groundwork that was really
necessary, YMMV.
Going back to the original post, Harry's choice of Ginny is perfectly
understandable because he is 16. Ginny's role is not that of an intimate
confidant or "better half" but as a fair princess waving her hanky as her knight
goes off to battle - at least in the beginning. Towards the end of the last book
the girl who dumped her boyfriend for the temerity of helping her through the
portrait hole will no doubt share in the fighting and cause Harry to finally
realize that she is an equal.
--
Joe
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278210 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 20:52 |
|
Toon wrote:
> On 4 Jun 2006 10:49:52 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Thinking of this made me realize what bothers me about Harry and Ginny
> >as a couple. Ginny never calls Harry on his BS. Rather she encourages
> >his BS. And in fact, has the exact same BS herself. Rather than being
> >his "Better Half", or he hers, they seem to encourage each
> >other's negative traits. She defends his use of Dark Magic on Draco
> >Malfoy, actually saying that Hermione "should be glad" that he had
> >such a trick up his sleeve. She, like Harry, encourages the twin's
> >meanness against Dudley and Percy. She is like a junior, distaff
> >version of Harry himself, in both Quiddich and life.
>
> Well, you can't base every relationship off of BS bashing. Most
> people do not meet this criteria. Very few even look for it in a
> mate, let alone want it. If this is a major criteria for mating,
> you'll never find one. IRL or in books between characters.
Firstly, I said they "called" the guy on his BS. I certainly was not
singing the praises of bashing.
Secondly, gave several real life example of men who take precisely the
above unrealistic attitude in my original post. Probably reflects the
fact taht IRL, people are made just as unhappy through having to wallow
in their own shit as they are through having to wallow in that of
others, if not MORE SO. A little common sense thought bears this out.
As to it not happening in FICTION? You must be joking? Why, the two
books I happen to be reading right now, THE BARTIMAEUS TRILOGY by
Jonathan Stroud, and PRIDE AND PREJUDICE by Jane Austen, both feature
precisely the romantic dynamic I am talking about. It's a popular
dynamic in fictional friendships also.
> >Another problem is that Harry doesn't seem to care about Ginny much.
> >It never even occurs to him to come to her defense in Year 2, when the
> >twins are bullying her.
>
> Defend her against her brothers, who are always bullying their younger
> sibs? Doubtful. very few interfere with family dynamics unless it's
> excessive.
It was excessive. And while you are right that he might not have seen
the need to interfere what with Percy there, the real problem was not
that he was RELUCTANT to interfere, but that he wasn't interested
enough in her to even think about it.
> > Compare the Book 5 scene where she reminds
> >Harry she has been possessed by Voldemort, to the Book 4 scene where
> >Harry finds out about Neville's parents. In the latter, Harry is
> >shocked at himself, overcome with compassion for Neville, and disgusted
> >that he had never bothered to ask or wonder. It is a very moving
> >scene, and a reaction that did Harry great credit. In the scene with
> >Ginny, however, Harry merely seems somewhat abashed, and there
> >doesn't seem to be much emotion towards Ginny at all. In the entire
> >series, there is no scene which has Harry as compassionately interested
> >in her, or as emotionally moved towards her, as he is elsewhere towards
> >Neville, Luna, or Hermione.
>
> She's always been his best mate's little sister. Very hard to
> overcome that. Course, he did risk life and limb to save her in COS.
That doesn't mean that he shouldn't be compassionately interested in
her.
He completely ignored her unless she was being kidnapped by Voldemort.
His supposed "brotherly" feelings amount to a) total indifference,
morphing into b) the desire to beat up her boyfriends. He shows more
real compassion and actual human interest towards Neville, Luna,
Hermione, Ron, Hagrid, Sirius, Hedwig, even SNAPE (teen version). Poor
Ginny isn't a best friend with benefits, or even a friend with
benefits. She's just the benefits.
> >Even Cho Chang actually engaged more of Harry's interest and he put
> >more effort into figuring her out. Cho challenged Harry to talk about
> >his feelings, pay attention to HER feelings and recent trauma, and
> >stood up to him about his bullying tendencies. We don't see Harry
> >putting any such effort into Ginny, and she doesn't challenge him to.
> > She is happy just to snog and talk Quiddich, without any nasty talking
> >about feelings or challenging his tendency to bully, which I guess is
> >perfect from Harry's pov, if not my own.
> >
> >This is a shame. I liked Ginny to start with, and I think that she
> >would have turned out better as a character in her own right, rather
> >than Harry's girl. To my mind it is not a role which suits her, or
> >does him much good either.
>
> There was no real build up. She went from crushing to friend for 3
> years, to sudden girlfriend. Juts like that Harry began feeling
> jealous towards any guy with her. Why? and Ginn herself, follows
> Hermione's advice to forget Harry since he's not interested and dates
> round. All the while, She's still secretly pining away for him. She's
> biding her time, having motionless flings, misleading the guys, and
> her popularity among the boy is wrong because her heart's not in it.
> It's like a game to her. How many guys can I seduce and destroy?
Okay, "seduce and destroy" is a little strong, but otherwise I totally
agree with everything that you said. To have Ginny "secretly pining"
for Harry and just "pretending" to be over him isn't romantic, it's
lame. It makes her look like a pathetic little girl who never outgrew
her ten-year-old crush.
If you think about it, the fact that she was snowed SO BADLY by "Tom"
at such a young age would be bound to leave permanent scars, and that
might explain her keeping lots of guys on a string, but never really
getting emotionally involved with them. That would be understandable.
I wish I saw SOME SIGN that Rowling was interested in making Ginny
three-dimensional in this way. But from what I have read of her
interviews, she seems honestly convinced that what she has written is a
good romance, and that Ginny and Harry are a good match. From an
alleged fan of Jane Austen, who knew how to do romance right, I dunno
how she can think this.
> And then all of a sudden she and Harry are together. No real bonding.
> yelling at him for forgetting she was possessed by V doesn't count.
Agreed. That's what I was trying to say. They didn't "bond" at all.
Ginny still doesn't seem quite real as a character to me. PERCY, who
had two words in the last book, is far more three dimensional. And
that is because Harry hasn't got any real connection to her. It is
just a nebulous crush like he had on Cho.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278220 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 21:15 |
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A.G.McDowell wrote:
> In article <1149443392.338365.112530 [at] i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Karnak17 <karnak17 [at] cs.com> writes
> >I once read an article where the author stated that for himself and his
> >friends, their future wife was always the first girlfriend who saw
> >through the guy's BS and called him on it. The man's reaction (to
> >his own surprise) was not anger, but "Hey! Good for you." I was
> >reminded of this recently when I read some of C.S. Lewis A GRIEF
> >OBSERVED, wherein he describes his late wife in exactly the same way,
> >as the one who saw through his fatuousness and pretensions. A guy's
> >mate is his "better half", in this sense, not because she is a
> >better PERSON than he is, but because she keeps him honest to his own
> >better self - something Lewis and the men in the article obviously
> >valued.
> >
> >Thinking of this made me realize what bothers me about Harry and Ginny
> >as a couple. Ginny never calls Harry on his BS. Rather she encourages
> >his BS. And in fact, has the exact same BS herself. Rather than being
> >his "Better Half", or he hers, they seem to encourage each
> >other's negative traits. She defends his use of Dark Magic on Draco
> >Malfoy, actually saying that Hermione "should be glad" that he had
> >such a trick up his sleeve. She, like Harry, encourages the twin's
> >meanness against Dudley and Percy. She is like a junior, distaff
> >version of Harry himself, in both Quiddich and life.
> >
> OTP "Christmas on the closed ward"
>
> 'I didn't want anyone to talk to me,' said Harry, who was feeling more
> and more nettled.
> 'Well, that was a bit stupid of you,' said Ginny angrily, 'seeing as you
> don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can
> tell you how it feels.'
> ....
>
> I put that in to query your 'never',
I'm afraid that was a little too obvious. I mean, EVERYONE was calling
Harry on his BS in THAT scene. It was practically a group
intervention. If Ginny had been a total stranger, and she heard that
this fellow student thought he was being possessed by LV, she would
likely have done the exact same thing. I mean, duh!
It's Harry's reaction in that scene I find to be illuminating. Since
assuming Ginny to be "perfectly happy again" after her LV ordeal in
Book 2, he hasn't given her a thought. Then she shoves his face in the
fact that, yes, she HAS had this horrible trauma which he completely
forgot about, and all he feels is slightly abashed. "I forgot". Read
that passage and there is no reference to him thinking about Ginny's
feelings at all.
Compare to his reaction when he is told about Neville's parents.
"Harry sat there, horror-struck. He had never known . . . never, in
four years, bothered to find out . . ."
And later:
" . . . he imagined how it must feel to have parents still living but
unable to recognize you. He often got sympathy from strangers for
being an orphan, but as he listened to Neville's snores, he thought
that Neville deserved it more than he did."
That is way more MEANINGFUL emotion and attention than he has ever
given Ginny.
>but I think what you describe does
> apply to Ron & Hermione's relationship much more strongly than to Harry
> & Ginny's.
Don't get me started on THAT one.
>I think that there can be many factors building a
> relationship, and that different relationships can have them at
> different relative strengths. Harry does not spend a lot of time
> thinking about his decision-making skills; despite the glasses, he is a
> sports fan and player, who puts at least as much emphasis on snap
> judgements and luck, or guts, as he does on careful consideration.
Okay. But I don't see how this applies to what I said.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278223 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 21:37 |
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Joe Curwen wrote:
> In article <1149457223.233487.240120 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
> says...
> >
> >
> <<SNIP>>
> >
>
> From an adult perspective, I agree with you. But if I put myself in the shoes of
> a young reader, I'd say that Ginny seems an OK match for Harry. Teens and
> pre-teens aren't yet old enough to appreciate the kind of significant other you
> are talking about.
>From my recollection, they certainly are. Shallow is shallow, and
young people can see it just fine. It is probably easier to see in
fictitious characters than in real life, but they don't differ much
from adults on this.
I mentioned the Bartimaeus Trilogy as being a YA novel which portrays
relationships, both romantic and otherwise, which have exactly the
dynamic I am describing. Much more interesting relationships than
Harry/Ginny, I promise you. Jane Austen's EMMA (exact same romantic
dynamic) was adapted for teens as CLUELESS and was a big hit. You can
see this same dynamic at work in the Stan Lee SPIDER MAN comics - it is
the very reason MJ Watson moved to the head of the pack of potential
Parker-girlfirends. I am subject to correction on this, but I think
teens and kids can tell a lame limp noodle of a love interest from one
with real sparks just fine, imho.
>It's enough that Ginny was shown to be pretty, popular and
> athletic. In Ginny, Harry found exactly what he was looking for before, with
> Cho.
Well, that is exactly the part that turns me off. He wasn't interested
in Cho as a person at all. Any attempt on her part to make him see her
as a human being with feelings completely sabotaged the relationship.
Her trauma and grief over Cedric, her friendship with Marietta, her
desire to be a friend to HIM in HIS trouble, ANYTHING that was actually
important to the real Cho as a real person was exactly what turned him
off of her.
Now, I don't blame him for wanting to deal with his trauma in his own
way, and I don't think that it was his fault exactly that they didn't
work out. It was just bad luck. But what he was looking for from Cho
was emphatically NOTHING like a real relationship. To say that he has
gotten with Ginny what he wanted with Cho is to concede my point. It
is not a relationship. It's just snogging. I realize many teen
relationships are like that, and Rowling has portrayed a few
relationships which are clearly meant to be learning experiences rather
than deathless romances. But she seems, from her interview comments,
to actually regard Ginny and Harry as the latter rather than the
former. Which is sad.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278227 ] |
Mo, 05 Juni 2006 22:26 |
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Toon wrote:
> On 4 Jun 2006 14:40:23 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:
>
> > Sirius was happy and safe at home tending to
> >an injured Buckbeak.
>
> He wasn't happy. He was quite miserable. He was only happen during
> vacations when everybody was staying in his house, and he finally had
> a real family again.
Okay, okay. He was miserable and safe.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278232 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 00:02 |
|
"Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote in article
<1149534946.318197.231200 [at] h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
> It's Harry's reaction in that scene I find to be illuminating. Since
> assuming Ginny to be "perfectly happy again" after her LV ordeal in
> Book 2, he hasn't given her a thought. Then she shoves his face in the
> fact that, yes, she HAS had this horrible trauma which he completely
> forgot about, and all he feels is slightly abashed. "I forgot". Read
> that passage and there is no reference to him thinking about Ginny's
> feelings at all.
> Compare to his reaction when he is told about Neville's parents.
> "Harry sat there, horror-struck. He had never known . . . never, in
> four years, bothered to find out . . ."
> And later:
> " . . . he imagined how it must feel to have parents still living but
> unable to recognize you. He often got sympathy from strangers for
> being an orphan, but as he listened to Neville's snores, he thought
> that Neville deserved it more than he did."
> That is way more MEANINGFUL emotion and attention than he has ever
> given Ginny.
And as Snape legilimenced Harry, his thoughts went to Hermione & Cho.
Ginevra
--
"No, I'm serious!" said Ron earnestly to Luna.
"I can't remember enjoying a commentary more!"
-- "Half-Blood Prince", chapter 20
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278233 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 00:05 |
|
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote in article
<1149517609.566881.69250 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>:
> I think what's funny/strange is how JK had Ginny do a complete 180 in
> the books, changing her character to an almost different person. IMO, it
> didn't even seem gradual. It was as if all of a sudden she transformed
> from a shy wallflower to the "wonder woman" of Hogwarts...
JKR had Hermione do a complete 180 aswell. Off the top of my head --
The girl who fooled Umbrage in OOP couldn't act in B+B, she was snappy
& angry with Harry, she couldn't care less that Harry had a house elf, she
failed to support Harry's hunches, she gave Draco the benefit of the doubt
over Harry even though in earlier books she has hated him worse than Harry
and Ronald have, she failed to find that SS was the HBP, she was uncaring
and cold to Hagrid (her only friend in much of POA) even when Agragog died
who was the pet he got expelled for and which to her was worse than death
(compare this with her attitude to Hagrid+Nobert, Hagrid+Buckbeak, and to
Hagrid+Grawp), she was jealous that Harry was doing better in school even
though she just *loves* text books, she started fussing with her hair and
sighing over daydreams, she didn't give Harry his Xmas present this year,
she physically assaulted Ronald, she actually played a game of Quidditch,
then cheated at the tryouts - instead of growing up she's less mature.
Ginevra
--
"You know, Luna has grown on me," said Ron,
"I know she's insane, but in a good way."
-- "Half-Blood Prince", chapter 20
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278239 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 01:11 |
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Ginevra M. Longbottom wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote in article
> <1149517609.566881.69250 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>:
>
>
>>I think what's funny/strange is how JK had Ginny do a complete 180 in
>>the books, changing her character to an almost different person. IMO, it
>>didn't even seem gradual. It was as if all of a sudden she transformed
>>from a shy wallflower to the "wonder woman" of Hogwarts...
>
>
> JKR had Hermione do a complete 180 aswell. Off the top of my head --
>
> The girl who fooled Umbrage in OOP couldn't act in B+B,
The girl who was able to come up with a plan and follow through with it,
given time while Umbridge was holding them prisoner, was unable to act
completely on the fly with someone she didn't know who probably lacks
most of Umbridge's psychological issues. If you find that
unrealistic--I'd sound like I was bragging if I said it means you're
less like Hermione than me.
Actually, I'd /be/ bragging, too. So never mind.
> she was snappy
> & angry with Harry, she couldn't care less that Harry had a house elf,
....ah...
> she
> failed to support Harry's hunches, she gave Draco the benefit of the doubt
> over Harry even though in earlier books she has hated him worse than Harry
> and Ronald have,
Yes, she certainly hated him more than the two boys on Goblet of Fire
when she was the only one of the three who objected to him being bounced
up and down by Moody. "It's good Professor McGonnagall stopped it, he
could have gotten seriously hurt" is so much nastier than, "It's a shame
he didn't go to Durmstrang and die there."
I give up after that. Just one question, though: Why "Ronald"?
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #278249 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 03:02 |
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Ginevra M. Longbottom wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote in article
> <1149517609.566881.69250 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>:
>
> > I think what's funny/strange is how JK had Ginny do a complete 180 in
> > the books, changing her character to an almost different person. IMO, it
> > didn't even seem gradual. It was as if all of a sudden she transformed
> > from a shy wallflower to the "wonder woman" of Hogwarts...
>
> JKR had Hermione do a complete 180 aswell. Off the top of my head --
>
> The girl who fooled Umbrage in OOP couldn't act in B+B,
Umbridge gave her better motivation.
>she was snappy
> & angry with Harry, she couldn't care less that Harry had a house elf,
"The mudblood is speaking to Kreacher. Kreacher will pretend he cannot
hear."
She cares about Kreacher. But what do you expect of her after the
events of Book 5. The same naive "Oh, let's just set him free"
attitude. I would not credit that in her, at this point.
>she
> failed to support Harry's hunches, she gave Draco the benefit of the doubt
> over Harry even though in earlier books she has hated him worse than Harry
> and Ronald have,
As addressed elsewhere, not so.
> she failed to find that SS was the HBP,
She found Ellen Prince. And proof that Severus was her son, come to
that.
> she was uncaring
> and cold to Hagrid (her only friend in much of POA) even when Agragog died
> who was the pet he got expelled for and which to her was worse than death
I think the stricter rules about leaving the castle, and the fact that
she is no longer actually in his class account for this change of
attitude.
> (compare this with her attitude to Hagrid+Nobert, Hagrid+Buckbeak, and to
> Hagrid+Grawp),
What attitude? Frustration? Exasperation? A miserable sense of
being press-ganged against her will into something she knows is a
really really stupid idea?
>she was jealous that Harry was doing better in school even
> though she just *loves* text books,
If she suddenly got better at Quiddich than Harry, he might be a bit
jealous too -- even though he loves broomsticks. How is this out of
character?
>she started fussing with her hair
When?
>and
> sighing over daydreams,
She admired the twins magical skill. No sighing was involved, iirc.
>she didn't give Harry his Xmas present this year,
Says who?
> she physically assaulted Ronald,
Yes.
>she actually played a game of Quidditch,
WHEN?
> then cheated at the tryouts -
True.
> instead of growing up she's less mature.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281390 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 07:06 |
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On 5 Jun 2006 11:52:38 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:
>As to it not happening in FICTION? You must be joking? Why, the two
>books I happen to be reading right now, THE BARTIMAEUS TRILOGY by
>Jonathan Stroud, and PRIDE AND PREJUDICE by Jane Austen, both feature
>precisely the romantic dynamic I am talking about. It's a popular
>dynamic in fictional friendships also.
Woo hoo. 2 whole books. Again, you're basing relationships solely on
this idea. And whether it's the current fad or a general plot point
such as hero fights villian, not everybody subscribes to this theory.
It's like getting mad that a hero dies at the end, because good
triumphant's over evil, and heroes win in the end. Nice idea, used
all the time, but is not he only way.
>It was excessive. And while you are right that he might not have seen
>the need to interfere what with Percy there, the real problem was not
>that he was RELUCTANT to interfere, but that he wasn't interested
>enough in her to even think about it.
I doubt many guys would be. It's family. Brothers pick on their
little sisters. They're friends sometimes join in.
>He completely ignored her unless she was being kidnapped by Voldemort.
He has a hero complex. And she's a bit of a drama mama in appealing
to it. She does know her man.
>Okay, "seduce and destroy" is a little strong, but otherwise I totally
>agree with everything that you said.
OK, that was a bit of hyperbole to prove my point.
>To have Ginny "secretly pining"
>for Harry and just "pretending" to be over him isn't romantic, it's
>lame. It makes her look like a pathetic little girl who never outgrew
>her ten-year-old crush.
I'm not sure she ever truly did.
>If you think about it, the fact that she was snowed SO BADLY by "Tom"
>at such a young age would be bound to leave permanent scars, and that
>might explain her keeping lots of guys on a string, but never really
>getting emotionally involved with them. That would be understandable.
>I wish I saw SOME SIGN that Rowling was interested in making Ginny
>three-dimensional in this way. But from what I have read of her
>interviews, she seems honestly convinced that what she has written is a
>good romance, and that Ginny and Harry are a good match. From an
>alleged fan of Jane Austen, who knew how to do romance right, I dunno
>how she can think this.
Well, not everybody is a Jane Austin fan, nor does everybody who
writes base their plots on what Jane Austin did. There are lots of
reason Harry and Ginny don't work. Basing this off of a lack of
calling Harry on his crap isn't much of a case, unless you can show JK
believes in this plotline and has used it for all other relationships.
otherwise, it's a nice way to find a wife, but not the only way, which
you seem to believe it must be. Either call him on his crap, or
you're not worthy.
>> And then all of a sudden she and Harry are together. No real bonding.
>> yelling at him for forgetting she was possessed by V doesn't count.
>
>Agreed. That's what I was trying to say. They didn't "bond" at all.
Should have stated this in book 5, culminate in book 6.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281396 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 10:08 |
|
On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:11:09 GMT, Kish <Kish_K [at] pacbell.net> wrote:
>Ginevra M. Longbottom wrote:
>> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote in article
>> <1149517609.566881.69250 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>:
>>
>>
>>>I think what's funny/strange is how JK had Ginny do a complete 180 in
>>>the books, changing her character to an almost different person. IMO, it
>>>didn't even seem gradual. It was as if all of a sudden she transformed
>>>from a shy wallflower to the "wonder woman" of Hogwarts...
>>
>>
>> JKR had Hermione do a complete 180 aswell. Off the top of my head --
>>
>> The girl who fooled Umbrage in OOP couldn't act in B+B,
>
>The girl who was able to come up with a plan and follow through with it,
>given time while Umbridge was holding them prisoner, was unable to act
>completely on the fly with someone she didn't know who probably lacks
>most of Umbridge's psychological issues. If you find that
>unrealistic--I'd sound like I was bragging if I said it means you're
>less like Hermione than me.
>
>Actually, I'd /be/ bragging, too. So never mind.
>
>> she was snappy
>> & angry with Harry, she couldn't care less that Harry had a house elf,
>
>...ah...
>
>> she
>> failed to support Harry's hunches, she gave Draco the benefit of the doubt
>> over Harry even though in earlier books she has hated him worse than Harry
>> and Ronald have,
>
>Yes, she certainly hated him more than the two boys on Goblet of Fire
>when she was the only one of the three who objected to him being bounced
>up and down by Moody. "It's good Professor McGonnagall stopped it, he
>could have gotten seriously hurt" is so much nastier than, "It's a shame
>he didn't go to Durmstrang and die there."
>
>I give up after that. Just one question, though: Why "Ronald"?
She really likes fast food clowns, and his name triggers that?
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281397 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 10:10 |
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On 5 Jun 2006 19:39:57 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:
>"The mudblood is speaking to Kreacher. Kreacher will pretend he cannot
>hear."
>
>She cares about Kreacher. But what do you expect of her after the
>events of Book 5. The same naive "Oh, let's just set him free"
>attitude. I would not credit that in her, at this point.
She was aghast when Kreacher and Dobby skipped sleep "per Harry's
orders."
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281398 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 10:17 |
|
On 5 Jun 2006 12:37:39 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:
>Well, that is exactly the part that turns me off. He wasn't interested
>in Cho as a person at all. Any attempt on her part to make him see her
>as a human being with feelings completely sabotaged the relationship.
>Her trauma and grief over Cedric, her friendship with Marietta, her
>desire to be a friend to HIM in HIS trouble, ANYTHING that was actually
>important to the real Cho as a real person was exactly what turned him
>off of her.
He had a stupid crush on her. There's nothing but snogging involved.
he knows nothing of her than she plays Quidditch really well.
>Now, I don't blame him for wanting to deal with his trauma in his own
>way, and I don't think that it was his fault exactly that they didn't
>work out. It was just bad luck. But what he was looking for from Cho
>was emphatically NOTHING like a real relationship. To say that he has
>gotten with Ginny what he wanted with Cho is to concede my point. It
>is not a relationship. It's just snogging. I realize many teen
>relationships are like that, and Rowling has portrayed a few
>relationships which are clearly meant to be learning experiences rather
>than deathless romances. But she seems, from her interview comments,
>to actually regard Ginny and Harry as the latter rather than the
>former. Which is sad.
So, it's sad that JK doesn't write her romances based on Jane Austin's
view of how they should be? And you feel this is universally accepted
as the only way to write a romance because several authors a few real
life men feel the same as Jane did? You're not going to like a lot of
relationships out there in fiction. Real life will be even worse.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281409 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 15:21 |
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I think Ginny provided Harry exactly what he needed at the time. It's
true that Quidditch and snogging aren't enough to sustain a real
relationship, but they make a good start. In Real Life there are a lot
of good relationships that begin with a shared interest and physical
attraction. Harry and Cho began their relationship when they were both
weighed down with too many painful emotions. Even two adults would have
had problems sorting through everything those two were feeling. For two
teenagers, it was hopeless. With Ginny, Harry has a much more age
appropriate relationship which can grow at a comfortable pace.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281419 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 17:27 |
|
In article <1149536259.589159.76600 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
says...
>
>
<<SNIP>>
>
>Now, I don't blame him for wanting to deal with his trauma in his own
>way, and I don't think that it was his fault exactly that they didn't
>work out. It was just bad luck. But what he was looking for from Cho
>was emphatically NOTHING like a real relationship. To say that he has
>gotten with Ginny what he wanted with Cho is to concede my point. It
>is not a relationship. It's just snogging. I realize many teen
>relationships are like that, and Rowling has portrayed a few
>relationships which are clearly meant to be learning experiences rather
>than deathless romances. But she seems, from her interview comments,
>to actually regard Ginny and Harry as the latter rather than the
>former. Which is sad.
>
IIRC, Rowling felt that the only reason to include romance in her stories is
that it is a part of life. Even so, she didn't want to emphasize that part of
the story because it would detract from the "mystery" part of the story. The
relationships were written to be shallow out of necessity.
On the other hand, perhaps we are not giving Ginny her due. Maybe she kept
things light because she understood Harry very well, and knew how to give him
exactly what he wanted and needed at that time in his life. And when Harry broke
up with her, her response was perfect, at least from Harry's point of view. Her
understanding of his needs is in fact so deep that she made no mistakes at all
and left him wanting more. From there, when Voldemort is finished, she has a
shot at developing something more meaningful with Harry if that's what she
wants. Had she tried to get too serious too soon, she would have lost any chance
she had at a future with Harry. So maybe what you claim is shallow is actually
part of an intelligent plan.
--
Joe
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281426 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 20:20 |
|
Joe Curwen wrote:
> In article <1149536259.589159.76600 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
> says...
> >
> >
> <<SNIP>>
> >
> >Now, I don't blame him for wanting to deal with his trauma in his own
> >way, and I don't think that it was his fault exactly that they didn't
> >work out. It was just bad luck. But what he was looking for from Cho
> >was emphatically NOTHING like a real relationship. To say that he has
> >gotten with Ginny what he wanted with Cho is to concede my point. It
> >is not a relationship. It's just snogging. I realize many teen
> >relationships are like that, and Rowling has portrayed a few
> >relationships which are clearly meant to be learning experiences rather
> >than deathless romances. But she seems, from her interview comments,
> >to actually regard Ginny and Harry as the latter rather than the
> >former. Which is sad.
> >
>
> IIRC, Rowling felt that the only reason to include romance in her stories is
> that it is a part of life. Even so, she didn't want to emphasize that part of
> the story because it would detract from the "mystery" part of the story. The
> relationships were written to be shallow out of necessity.
I don't see how necessity demands any of the things that I am
complaining about. Did I not point out how JKR has portrayed Harry's
compassion and freindship for Neville far more movingly and
convincingly than his "love" for Ginny. Yet Neville is an even more
minor character. Hermione/Krum and Draco/Parkinson were both far more
convincing than Harry/Ginny.
> On the other hand, perhaps we are not giving Ginny her due. Maybe she kept
> things light because she understood Harry very well, and knew how to give him
> exactly what he wanted and needed at that time in his life. And when Harry broke
> up with her, her response was perfect, at least from Harry's point of view. Her
> understanding of his needs is in fact so deep that she made no mistakes at all
> and left him wanting more. From there, when Voldemort is finished, she has a
> shot at developing something more meaningful with Harry if that's what she
> wants. Had she tried to get too serious too soon, she would have lost any chance
> she had at a future with Harry. So maybe what you claim is shallow is actually
> part of an intelligent plan.
Oh, so you think that she is a RULES girl.
Now, just to be clear here, _I_ didn't say that Ginny was shallow.
That was you. And if she is just playacting and concealing her true
self in order to "land" a man, then I guess you are right.
I said that she was too much like Harry Potter, and that she shared and
encouraged his faults. They aren't Yin/Yang, they are Yin/Yin. I also
said that Rowling failed to convey that Harry genuinely gives a rat's
ass about her. That has nothing to do with Ginny herself being
shallow. I think she could have turned out a much better character if
she had just been Ginny instead of Harry's girlfriend.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281430 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 21:01 |
|
Toon wrote:
> On 5 Jun 2006 11:52:38 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:
>
>
> >As to it not happening in FICTION? You must be joking? Why, the two
> >books I happen to be reading right now, THE BARTIMAEUS TRILOGY by
> >Jonathan Stroud, and PRIDE AND PREJUDICE by Jane Austen, both feature
> >precisely the romantic dynamic I am talking about. It's a popular
> >dynamic in fictional friendships also.
>
> Woo hoo. 2 whole books.
The point was that they are the two whole books that I happened to be
reading right now. Which I point out merely to reflect the fact that
it is common enough generally. I could scarcely list ALL the books
I've ever read with such a theme. I though confining it to the two I
happened to be reading right now would sufficiently contradict you
bizarre assertion that such a theme is unheard of in fiction. It is
certainly not uncommon.
>Again, you're basing relationships solely on
> this idea.
I am using this idea to help point out what seriously bothers me about
Ginny/Harry, why I do not find it romantic, or appealing, or moving, or
fun. I mention it in addition to another idea, which I believe it is
closely connected to, that Harry doesn't seem to care much about Ginny,
pay much attention to her, or bond very closely with her. In marked
contrast to his relationships with Neville, for example.
>And whether it's the current fad or a general plot point
> such as hero fights villian, not everybody subscribes to this theory.
> It's like getting mad that a hero dies at the end, because good
> triumphant's over evil, and heroes win in the end. Nice idea, used
> all the time, but is not he only way.
I didn't say that Rowling had to use the idea because everybody else
did. I pointed out that it was a common theme in literature ONLY
because you made the ludicrous statement that it was virtually unheard
of in literature, and in life. Neither are even close to being true.
I point this out merely because it is true and you had said that it
wasn't. But if you wish to continue to think that such stories are
rare, that is okay. It has little to do with how the Harry/Ginny
relationship SHOULD work out.
It certainly is not the dymamic in EVERY fictional romance: For
example, in Victorian novels, there was a tendency I noticed for the
hero to have a love interest who very much lacked the qualities I am
talking about; she would have a simple and childlike sort of "love" for
the hero, no great insight into his character, and was always agreeable
and supportive, never contradictory. Such "romances" tended to come
equipped with an acerbic female sidekick, who would actually TALK to
the hero and make plans with him while the romantic heroine was off on
her pedastle. In THE WOMAN IN WHITE this sidekick actually becomes the
main heroine of the novel, and her friendship with the hero the main
relationship. Of course, TO ME, (I make no assertion that everybody
feels the same) this was a good choice on the author's part, because
the friendship was so much more interesting than the romance.
Precisely because the friendship had those qualities which Ginny/Harry
lack.
<snip>
> >If you think about it, the fact that she was snowed SO BADLY by "Tom"
> >at such a young age would be bound to leave permanent scars, and that
> >might explain her keeping lots of guys on a string, but never really
> >getting emotionally involved with them. That would be understandable.
> >I wish I saw SOME SIGN that Rowling was interested in making Ginny
> >three-dimensional in this way. But from what I have read of her
> >interviews, she seems honestly convinced that what she has written is a
> >good romance, and that Ginny and Harry are a good match. From an
> >alleged fan of Jane Austen, who knew how to do romance right, I dunno
> >how she can think this.
>
> Well, not everybody is a Jane Austin fan, nor does everybody who
> writes base their plots on what Jane Austin did. There are lots of
> reason Harry and Ginny don't work. Basing this off of a lack of
> calling Harry on his crap isn't much of a case, unless you can show JK
> believes in this plotline and has used it for all other relationships.
> otherwise, it's a nice way to find a wife, but not the only way, which
> you seem to believe it must be. Either call him on his crap, or
> you're not worthy.
I was pointing out that it is one of the things -- one of the biggest
things -- which personally bothers me about their relationship.
Particularly the nausiating scene where she says that Hermione should
be glad he sectumsempre'd Draco. I am certain that there are
"successful" relationships where one partner doesn't call another
partner on his crap, even when that crap amounts to attempted murder.
But I would not want Harry or Ginny to have THAT sort of "successful"
relationship. And it does not, personally, appeal to me as a reader
that they are having one now.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281434 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 22:26 |
|
Toon wrote:
> On 5 Jun 2006 12:37:39 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:
>
> >Well, that is exactly the part that turns me off. He wasn't interested
> >in Cho as a person at all. Any attempt on her part to make him see her
> >as a human being with feelings completely sabotaged the relationship.
> >Her trauma and grief over Cedric, her friendship with Marietta, her
> >desire to be a friend to HIM in HIS trouble, ANYTHING that was actually
> >important to the real Cho as a real person was exactly what turned him
> >off of her.
>
> He had a stupid crush on her. There's nothing but snogging involved.
> he knows nothing of her than she plays Quidditch really well.
>
>
Harry had a crush on Cho. He acted stupidly like many teenagers do.
Harry's 16. He wants a girl in his life but he doesn't have the time,
experience or skill to do it right, so he decided to date his best
friends sister because it was easy. He likes and respects Ginny and
she likes and respects him. They have enough in common that they may
be a good match down the line.
But, Harry's only 16 years old! Why should he be having the big
romance of his life when he is worried that he and all of his friends
might be dead soon? Yes, he doesn't pay enough attention to her, being
in fear of dying does tend to distract people. Once in a while he does
pay attention to other peoples needs when it is pushed in his face,
like Nevile and his parents or how other people treat Luna. He
doesn't pay that much attention to Ginny because he believes she can
take care of herself. That is one of the things that attracted him to
her in the first place. Once he let himself really start to think
about it and really start to care about her, he got scared.
|
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281435 ] |
Di, 06 Juni 2006 22:59 |
|
In article <1149618033.186500.290920 [at] h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
says...
>
>
>Joe Curwen wrote:
>> In article <1149536259.589159.76600 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
>> says...
>> >
>> >
>> <<SNIP>>
>> >
>> >Now, I don't blame him for wanting to deal with his trauma in his own
>> >way, and I don't think that it was his fault exactly that they didn't
>> >work out. It was just bad luck. But what he was looking for from Cho
>> >was emphatically NOTHING like a real relationship. To say that he has
>> >gotten with Ginny what he wanted with Cho is to concede my point. It
>> >is not a relationship. It's just snogging. I realize many teen
>> >relationships are like that, and Rowling has portrayed a few
>> >relationships which are clearly meant to be learning experiences rather
>> >than deathless romances. But she seems, from her interview comments,
>> >to actually regard Ginny and Harry as the latter rather than the
>> >former. Which is sad.
>> >
>>
>> IIRC, Rowling felt that the only reason to include romance in her stories is
>> that it is a part of life. Even so, she didn't want to emphasize that part of
>> the story because it would detract from the "mystery" part of the story. The
>> relationships were written to be shallow out of necessity.
>
>I don't see how necessity demands any of the things that I am
>complaining about. Did I not point out how JKR has portrayed Harry's
>compassion and freindship for Neville far more movingly and
>convincingly than his "love" for Ginny. Yet Neville is an even more
>minor character. Hermione/Krum and Draco/Parkinson were both far more
>convincing than Harry/Ginny.
I threw that in there because its important (to me) to keep in mind that we're
not dealing with romance novels. The point of the thing with Neville was to have
Harry realize that Neville was more deserving of others' sympathy than he was.
>
>> On the other hand, perhaps we are not giving Ginny her due. Maybe she kept
>> things light because she understood Harry very well, and knew how to give him
>>exactly what he wanted and needed at that time in his life. And when Harry broke
>>up with her, her response was perfect, at least from Harry's point of view. Her
>>understanding of his needs is in fact so deep that she made no mistakes at all
>> and left him wanting more. From there, when Voldemort is finished, she has a
>> shot at developing something more meaningful with Harry if that's what she
>>wants. Had she tried to get too serious too soon, she would have lost any chance
>>she had at a future with Harry. So maybe what you claim is shallow is actually
>> part of an intelligent plan.
>
>Oh, so you think that she is a RULES girl.
>
>Now, just to be clear here, _I_ didn't say that Ginny was shallow.
>That was you.
To be even clearer, I'm not saying Ginny, herself is shallow either. She is
keeping her relationship with Harry light, easy and fun (shallow) because that's
the only kind of relationship anyone can have with Harry.
Harry is a throw-yourself-on-a-hand-grenade kind of guy, and that's how he shows
he cares. Ginny knows this and that why she likes Harry as much as she does.
Anything else though, she knows he is no good at yet.
>And if she is just playacting and concealing her true
>self in order to "land" a man, then I guess you are right.
She isn't playacting at all. She is making the best of the situation she is in,
and having fun with it. That's not a bad thing, its just smart. In fact, I'm
guessing she is following Hermione's plan which will be revealed in the last
book.
>
>I said that she was too much like Harry Potter, and that she shared and
>encouraged his faults. They aren't Yin/Yang, they are Yin/Yin. I also
>said that Rowling failed to convey that Harry genuinely gives a rat's
>ass about her. That has nothing to do with Ginny herself being
>shallow.
It's not that Harry doesn't care, it is that he is emotionally and romantically
retarded through neglect and circumstances beyond his control, mostly. In Book
6, Harry spent a lot of time with Hermione and couldn't for the life of him find
a single word of consolation for his friend. He is an emotional schlump. I can't
imagine what JKR could have done to make a convincing romance working with a
character like that.
>I think she could have turned out a much better character if
>she had just been Ginny instead of Harry's girlfriend.
>
But her character has no other point, really.
--
Joe
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281446 ] |
Mi, 07 Juni 2006 02:59 |
|
scenario_dave wrote:
>Harry had a crush on Cho. He acted stupidly like many teenagers do.
>
>Harry's 16. He wants a girl in his life but he doesn't have the time,
>experience or skill to do it right, so he decided to date his best
>friends sister because it was easy. He likes and respects Ginny and
>she likes and respects him. They have enough in common that they may
>be a good match down the line.
>
>But, Harry's only 16 years old! Why should he be having the big
>romance of his life when he is worried that he and all of his friends
>might be dead soon? Yes, he doesn't pay enough attention to her, being
>in fear of dying does tend to distract people. Once in a while he does
>pay attention to other peoples needs when it is pushed in his face,
>like Nevile and his parents or how other people treat Luna. He
>doesn't pay that much attention to Ginny because he believes she can
>take care of herself. That is one of the things that attracted him to
>her in the first place. Once he let himself really start to think
>about it and really start to care about her, he got scared.
>
>
>
I believe that one of the things that scared Harry away from Ginny was
that he realized that for him their relationship was a high-stakes
gamble. If he let the relationship go too far and it went wrong, he
would lose not only Ginny, but Ron's friendship and probably Hermione's
as well. Even if the parting was entirely amicable, Harry would never be
able to regain the easy intimacy he had with the whole Weasley family.
Harry and Ginny may end up together, assuming the both survive, but its
going to take time and they both have a lot of growing up to do.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281449 ] |
Mi, 07 Juni 2006 04:10 |
|
Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> On 2006-06-05 09:25:40 -0400, Toon <toon [at] toon.com> said:
>
>>
>> There was no real build up. She went from crushing to friend for 3
>> years, to sudden girlfriend. Juts like that Harry began feeling
>> jealous towards any guy with her. Why? and Ginn herself, follows
>> Hermione's advice to forget Harry since he's not interested and dates
>> round. All the while, She's still secretly pining away for him. She's
>> biding her time, having motionless flings, misleading the guys, and
>> her popularity among the boy is wrong because her heart's not in it.
>> It's like a game to her. How many guys can I seduce and destroy?
>
>
> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
>
> You're reading way too much into Ginny's actions here. Have you
> forgotten what teenage life is like?
>
Well - my teenage life happened in the previous century to today =- and
did so for a lot of others in the group. WE have lots of other things
more important to remember - like if we put the polident in with our
teeth overnight.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281466 ] |
Mi, 07 Juni 2006 09:47 |
|
On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 13:21:04 GMT, Paracelsus
<petersim [at] _nospam_shaw.ca> wrote:
>I think Ginny provided Harry exactly what he needed at the time. It's
>true that Quidditch and snogging aren't enough to sustain a real
>relationship, but they make a good start. In Real Life there are a lot
>of good relationships that begin with a shared interest and physical
>attraction. Harry and Cho began their relationship when they were both
>weighed down with too many painful emotions. Even two adults would have
>had problems sorting through everything those two were feeling. For two
>teenagers, it was hopeless. With Ginny, Harry has a much more age
>appropriate relationship which can grow at a comfortable pace.
>
Cho was just using Harry to get Cedric info.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281467 ] |
Mi, 07 Juni 2006 10:04 |
|
On 6 Jun 2006 12:01:36 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:
>I didn't say that Rowling had to use the idea because everybody else
>did. I pointed out that it was a common theme in literature ONLY
>because you made the ludicrous statement that it was virtually unheard
>of in literature, and in life. Neither are even close to being true.
I didn't say it's unheard of. I said it's not the universally agreed
upon way. The point you're trying to make is null and void. No
matter how many do subscribe to it, dow rite it, it's not the defacto
unviersal one. Eveyrbodyw rites a hero meeting a challenge of some
sort. Not eveyrbdy writes a relationship Jane austin's way. MIllions
of peopel do? Great. Still not enough proof everybody must. Millions
of real world folks do look for a wife these way? Mazeltov. still
doesn't mean everybody does. and if you tells oemone they're in a bad
relaitonship because it doesn't meet Jane's criteria, you'll find
yourself quite lonely. Not everybody does it this way. There are
other ways to base a realtionship around. Look up a amrirage of
convenience. Look at the guy in NY who said he's get married at 30,
then held a brideoff at the locla mall to find a bride. You think he
looked for a BS caller? No. And there has yet to be word he
divorced.
Basically, you can't accept a relationhip one author wrote because
it's not the way another author wrote hers. It doesn't matter how
many people write like Jane Austin did (And most books I read do not
have this dynamic). Doesn't matter how many people in real life
follow it. Not everybody subscribes to this criteria, and it's
ludicrous to complain about a relationship an author believes in and
wants because it doesn't meet the criteria of another author.
Not everybody writes nor wants a relationship where the girl calls the
guy on his BS. Doesn't matter if 99% of the world belives in it. Not
everybody believes in it, wants it, will write it, and it's completely
ridiculous to use Jane's view of relationship to determine the proper
pairing up of JK's relationships. Harry and Ginny are perfectly fine
without her calling him on his BS. They work on a different level.
sure there was no build up, but C'est la vie.
Who are you to say it's wrong because it's not based on another
author's, albeit popular, idea? Might as well complain Harry never
put Ginny on his broom and flew around Hogwarts during a full moon.
Then tried unsuccesfully to cook a lobster.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281492 ] |
Mi, 07 Juni 2006 20:48 |
|
Toon wrote:
> On 6 Jun 2006 12:01:36 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:
>
> >I didn't say that Rowling had to use the idea because everybody else
> >did. I pointed out that it was a common theme in literature ONLY
> >because you made the ludicrous statement that it was virtually unheard
> >of in literature, and in life. Neither are even close to being true.
>
> I didn't say it's unheard of.
You insisted it was totally rare, and I shouldn't look for or expect it
in literature or in life, because I would be disappointed. You were
wrong on both points, and I pointed it out to you. That is all.
>I said it's not the universally agreed
> upon way.
Obviously. I never said that it was.
>The point you're trying to make is null and void. No
> matter how many do subscribe to it, dow rite it, it's not the defacto
> unviersal one.
Well, that was, in fact, not my point, now was it? Would it kill you
to READ a person's posts before you respond to them?
>Eveyrbodyw rites a hero meeting a challenge of some
> sort. Not eveyrbdy writes a relationship Jane austin's way. MIllions
> of peopel do? Great. Still not enough proof everybody must.
You seem to be missing the entire point of my post. Let me try to
rephrase it again VERY carefully.
_I_ do not like Ginny/Harry. Never have. Couldn't put my finger on
WHY, exactly. I could have given lots or reasons, but they never quite
hit the nail on the head.
THEN I was reading C.S. Lewis talking about his wife, and it helped me
put my finger on it at last. Helped me put into words why I personally
find the relationship so lackluster, unromantic, and undramatic.
>Millions
> of real world folks do look for a wife these way? Mazeltov. still
> doesn't mean everybody does. and if you tells oemone they're in a bad
> relaitonship because it doesn't meet Jane's criteria, you'll find
> yourself quite lonely. Not everybody does it this way. There are
> other ways to base a realtionship around. Look up a amrirage of
> convenience. Look at the guy in NY who said he's get married at 30,
> then held a brideoff at the locla mall to find a bride. You think he
> looked for a BS caller? No. And there has yet to be word he
> divorced.
>
> Basically, you can't accept a relationhip one author wrote because
> it's not the way another author wrote hers.
Basically, you like to misinterpret other people's posts for no good
reason. Why is this?
>It doesn't matter how
> many people write like Jane Austin did (And most books I read do not
> have this dynamic). Doesn't matter how many people in real life
> follow it. Not everybody subscribes to this criteria, and it's
> ludicrous to complain about a relationship an author believes in and
> wants because it doesn't meet the criteria of another author.
>
> Not everybody writes nor wants a relationship where the girl calls the
> guy on his BS. Doesn't matter if 99% of the world belives in it. Not
> everybody believes in it, wants it, will write it, and it's completely
> ridiculous to use Jane's view of relationship to determine the proper
> pairing up of JK's relationships. Harry and Ginny are perfectly fine
> without her calling him on his BS. They work on a different level.
> sure there was no build up, but C'est la vie.
>
> Who are you to say it's wrong because it's not based on another
> author's, albeit popular, idea?
I didn't enjoy the relationship, I don't like the way that it is
written, and I am pointing out why. Jane Austen is an example I am
using to illustrate my point. Claiming that I said I don't like
Ginny/Harry BECAUSE it is not based on Jane Austen is a particularly
idiotic strawman.
Obviously, as my original post made plain enough, my dislike of the
relationship came first, and I have only recently put into words WHY.
So I wrote a post about it. It is called MAKING CONVERSATION. Where
does this pompous "Who are you to say" rubbish come from? I assure
you, I am qualified to give my own opinions and my reasons for them,
which is what I have just done.
What YOU have done is to claim -- very rudely -- that MY opinion was
invalid because NOBODY else did it that way. You were dead wrong, and I
pointed that out. This was not meant to be a claim that there was some
RULE of literature that Rowling had broken: Merely a correction of your
nastily expressed and factually inaccurate statements about life and
literature generally. I assure you that I regard the validity of my
opinion as a quite separate issue from its general popularity. It was
YOU, not me, who brought up the latter issue in the first place.
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| Re: Harry's Better Half: My problem with Ginny. [message #281495 ] |
Mi, 07 Juni 2006 21:23 |
|
Joe Curwen wrote:
> In article <1149618033.186500.290920 [at] h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
> says...
> >
> >
> >Joe Curwen wrote:
> >> In article <1149536259.589159.76600 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, Karnak17
> >> says...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> <<SNIP>>
> >> >
> >> >Now, I don't blame him for wanting to deal with his trauma in his own
> >> >way, and I don't think that it was his fault exactly that they didn't
> >> >work out. It was just bad luck. But what he was looking for from Cho
> >> >was emphatically NOTHING like a real relationship. To say that he has
> >> >gotten with Ginny what he wanted with Cho is to concede my point. It
> >> >is not a relationship. It's just snogging. I realize many teen
> >> >relationships are like that, and Rowling has portrayed a few
> >> >relationships which are clearly meant to be learning experiences rather
> >> >than deathless romances. But she seems, from her interview comments,
> >> >to actually regard Ginny and Harry as the latter rather than the
> >> >former. Which is sad.
> >> >
> >>
> >> IIRC, Rowling felt that the only reason to include romance in her stories is
> >> that it is a part of life. Even so, she didn't want to emphasize that part of
> >> the story because it would detract from the "mystery" part of the story. The
> >> relationships were written to be shallow out of necessity.
> >
> >I don't see how necessity demands any of the things that I am
> >complaining about. Did I not point out how JKR has portrayed Harry's
> >compassion and freindship for Neville far more movingly and
> >convincingly than his "love" for Ginny. Yet Neville is an even more
> >minor character. Hermione/Krum and Draco/Parkinson were both far more
> >convincing than Harry/Ginny.
>
> I threw that in there because its important (to me) to keep in mind that we're
> not dealing with romance novels. The point of the thing with Neville was to have
> Harry realize that Neville was more deserving of others' sympathy than he was.
>
>
> >> On the other hand, perhaps we are not giving Ginny her due. Maybe she kept
> >> things light because she understood Harry very well, and knew how to give him
> >>exactly what he wanted and needed at that time in his life. And when Harry broke
> >>up with her, her response was perfect, at least from Harry's point of view. Her
> >>understanding of his needs is in fact so deep that she made no mistakes at all
> >> and left him wanting more. From there, when Voldemort is finished, she has a
> >> shot at developing something more meaningful with Harry if that's what she
> >>wants. Had she tried to get too serious too soon, she would have lost any chance
> >>she had at a future with Harry. So maybe what you claim is shallow is actually
> >> part of an intelligent plan.
> >
> >Oh, so you think that she is a RULES girl.
> >
> >Now, just to be clear here, _I_ didn't say that Ginny was shallow.
> >That was you.
>
> To be even clearer, I'm not saying Ginny, herself is shallow either. She is
> keeping her relationship with Harry light, easy and fun (shallow) because that's
> the only kind of relationship anyone can have with Harry.
>
> Harry is a throw-yourself-on-a-hand-grenade kind of guy, and that's how he shows
> he cares. Ginny knows this and that why she likes Harry as much as she does.
> Anything else though, she knows he is no good at yet.
Possibly. Part of the problem is that Rowling is telling rather than
showing. How Harry feels about Neville, Hermione, Luna is shown to us
-- i.e. she shows us Harry focusing on them, thinking about them and
their feelings, and generally paying attention to them as human beings.
With Ginny, other than descriptions of roaring monsters in chests, we
are simply TOLD that he cares, and are not SHOWN him doing any actual
caring.
> >And if she is just playacting and concealing her true
> >self in order to "land" a man, then I guess you are right.
>
> She isn't playacting at all. She is making the best of the situation she is in,
> and having fun with it. That's not a bad thing, its just smart. In fact, I'm
> guessing she is following Hermione's plan which will be revealed in the last
> book.
Well, that still seems awfully Rules-ish.
> >I said that she was too much like Harry Potter, and that she shared and
> >encouraged his faults. They aren't Yin/Yang, they are Yin/Yin. I also
> >said that Rowling failed to convey that Harry genuinely gives a rat's
> >ass about her. That has nothing to do with Ginny herself being
> >shallow.
>
>
> It's not that Harry doesn't care, it is that he is emotionally and romantically
> retarded through neglect and circumstances beyond his control, mostly. In Book
> 6, Harry spent a lot of time with Hermione and couldn't for the life of him find
> a single word of consolation for his friend. He is an emotional schlump. I can't
> imagine what JKR could have done to make a convincing romance working with a
> character like that.
But that was effective and moving. You could tell that he cared about
Hermione, and WANTED to help her. But naturally there were no words.
That was fine. It was believable. Just the way he followed her into
the classroom and stood there like an idiot was an attempt to show he
cared and wanted to comfort her, and I'm sure Hermione knew him well
enough to realize it. He didn't have any WORDS for Neville either, but
WE, the reader, get to feel what he feels about it, even if he cannot
express it to those around him.
> > >I think she could have turned out a much better character if
> >she had just been Ginny instead of Harry's girlfriend.
> >
>
> But her character has no other point, really.
She has as much point as any other Weasley. Like I said, Percy and
Bill are more credible characters despite smaller roles.
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