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Science Fiction » alt.fan.starwars » Leia x Vader and the emperor
Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #276613] Mo, 05 Juni 2006 16:17
Goedel  
It appears from Leia's first scene with Vader in ANH that she had met
him before. For sure, being a member of the Imperial Senate, chances
are Leia had also met Palpatine several times before, either in social
functions or during sessions of the Senate itself. I wonder then how
come neither Vader nor Palpatine sensed Leia was force-sensitive. Even
if she was unaware of her powers and did not consciously use them,
still the Sith should have sensed something or noticed she had "Jedi
reflexes", shouldn't they ? After all, when Qui-Gon first met Anakin
for example, he immediately felt there was something special about the
boy. Besides, in case Palpatine or Vader suspected something, but were
somehow in doubt, they could always secretly get hold of a blood sample
from Leia and test it to get a midchlorian count, as Qui-Gon did with
Anakin.

In fact, the whole logic of sending Leia to live with Bail Organa seems
flawed to me: if the idea was to hide her from the emperor, why put her
in a position where, due to her state obligations as royal princess of
Alderaan, she would eventually meet Palpatine anyway ? Perhaps Obi and
Yoda did not care that much about Leia's future and put all their
hopes on her brother instead. Still, that would be a very recklesss
position: if Palpatine found out about Leia and persuaded her to turn
to the dark side rather than killing her, she could become "a great
asset" for the Sith and a threat to Luke himself.
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #276615 ] Mo, 05 Juni 2006 18:03
Jedi Apprentice  
Marcelo Bruno wrote:
> It appears from Leia's first scene with Vader in ANH that she had met
> him before. For sure, being a member of the Imperial Senate, chances
> are Leia had also met Palpatine several times before, either in social
> functions or during sessions of the Senate itself. I wonder then how
> come neither Vader nor Palpatine sensed Leia was force-sensitive. Even
> if she was unaware of her powers and did not consciously use them,
> still the Sith should have sensed something or noticed she had "Jedi
> reflexes", shouldn't they ? After all, when Qui-Gon first met Anakin
> for example, he immediately felt there was something special about the
> boy. Besides, in case Palpatine or Vader suspected something, but were
> somehow in doubt, they could always secretly get hold of a blood sample
> from Leia and test it to get a midchlorian count, as Qui-Gon did with
> Anakin.
>
> In fact, the whole logic of sending Leia to live with Bail Organa seems
> flawed to me: if the idea was to hide her from the emperor, why put her
> in a position where, due to her state obligations as royal princess of
> Alderaan, she would eventually meet Palpatine anyway ? Perhaps Obi and
> Yoda did not care that much about Leia's future and put all their
> hopes on her brother instead. Still, that would be a very recklesss
> position: if Palpatine found out about Leia and persuaded her to turn
> to the dark side rather than killing her, she could become "a great
> asset" for the Sith and a threat to Luke himself.

I think the honest reply is that when ANH came out, neither Leia or
Luke were meant to be related. Neither was Vader originally their
father IMO. Just my opinion mind...
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #276616 ] Mo, 05 Juni 2006 21:18
OSI  
Marcelo Bruno wrote:

> In fact, the whole logic of sending Leia to live with Bail Organa seems
> flawed to me:

Yes, but we have the advantage of seeing the entire story played out. I
don't think Obi-Wan & Yoda were thinking when Bail offered to take her.
But they expected Luke to come back and defeat the Sith eventually. Male
chauvinists I guess.

--
OSI
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #276622 ] Mo, 05 Juni 2006 22:17
SpammersDie  
"Marcelo Bruno" <bruno [at] ele.ita.br> wrote in message
news:1149517077.284111.10680 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> It appears from Leia's first scene with Vader in ANH that she had met
> him before. For sure, being a member of the Imperial Senate, chances
> are Leia had also met Palpatine several times before, either in social
> functions or during sessions of the Senate itself. I wonder then how
> come neither Vader nor Palpatine sensed Leia was force-sensitive.

There's no evidence in the films that a Sith can just look at a person and
count their midichlorins.

There's a second possibility which is who says Leia is all that strong in
the Force. The films never gave the results of her midichlorin tests.


> Even
> if she was unaware of her powers and did not consciously use them,
> still the Sith should have sensed something or noticed she had "Jedi
> reflexes", shouldn't they ?

The Chancellor is a busy man. Running a galactic dictatorship is a full-time
job and I'm sure he had better things to do than to check up on little
Leia's podracing records.



> After all, when Qui-Gon first met Anakin
> for example, he immediately felt there was something special about the
> boy.

Could have fooled me. He just walked out of that shop in a huff and would
never have seen Anakin again if Anakin hadn't trailed them. Qui-Gon's
suspicions weren't raised until Anakin specifically mentioned his hobby in
podracing - a physical activity supposedly beyond the range of normal human
reflexes.



> In fact, the whole logic of sending Leia to live with Bail Organa seems
> flawed to me: if the idea was to hide her from the emperor, why put her
> in a position where, due to her state obligations as royal princess of
> Alderaan, she would eventually meet Palpatine anyway ?

Because Senator Organa was available and willing and they didn't exactly
have a whole lot of options to choose from. There were only three people
there aware of the twins' existence and very good reasons not to expand that
number. Obi-Wan would be busy with Luke and I can't picture Yoda
breastfeeding little Leia and bringing her up on Dagobah.

Plus, there's the idea of hiding in plain sight. It worked for the
Chancellor for all these years so why not borrow the same good idea.
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #276631 ] Mo, 05 Juni 2006 23:20
Solon  
_SpammersDie_ spoke thusly on 05/06/2006 4:17 PM:
> "Marcelo Bruno" <bruno [at] ele.ita.br> wrote in message
> news:1149517077.284111.10680 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> It appears from Leia's first scene with Vader in ANH that she had met
>> him before. For sure, being a member of the Imperial Senate, chances
>> are Leia had also met Palpatine several times before, either in social
>> functions or during sessions of the Senate itself. I wonder then how
>> come neither Vader nor Palpatine sensed Leia was force-sensitive.
>
> There's no evidence in the films that a Sith can just look at a person and
> count their midichlorins.

MC count: no. However, Vader does sense that the force is strong with
Luke, during the battle of Yavin.
--
usenetsolon [at] gmail.com
Firefox 1.5 is out! <http://www.mozilla.com>
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #276639 ] Di, 06 Juni 2006 01:31
SpammersDie  
"Solon" <usenetsolon [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8f-dnd2hz73bPRnZnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d [at] giganews.com...
> _SpammersDie_ spoke thusly on 05/06/2006 4:17 PM:
>> "Marcelo Bruno" <bruno [at] ele.ita.br> wrote in message
>> news:1149517077.284111.10680 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>> It appears from Leia's first scene with Vader in ANH that she had met
>>> him before. For sure, being a member of the Imperial Senate, chances
>>> are Leia had also met Palpatine several times before, either in social
>>> functions or during sessions of the Senate itself. I wonder then how
>>> come neither Vader nor Palpatine sensed Leia was force-sensitive.
>>
>> There's no evidence in the films that a Sith can just look at a person
>> and count their midichlorins.
>
> MC count: no. However, Vader does sense that the force is strong with
> Luke, during the battle of Yavin.

Luke was communing with Obi-Wan at that very moment so he was using the
Force, albeit in an untrained manner.

Besides, Vader would probably say that about any pilot that managed to evade
his fire as long as Luke had.
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #276640 ] Di, 06 Juni 2006 02:38
David B  
Solon wrote:

> _SpammersDie_ spoke thusly on 05/06/2006 4:17 PM:
> > "Marcelo Bruno" <bruno [at] ele.ita.br> wrote in message
> > news:1149517077.284111.10680 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >> It appears from Leia's first scene with Vader in ANH that she had met
> >> him before. For sure, being a member of the Imperial Senate, chances
> >> are Leia had also met Palpatine several times before, either in social
> >> functions or during sessions of the Senate itself. I wonder then how
> >> come neither Vader nor Palpatine sensed Leia was force-sensitive.
> >
> > There's no evidence in the films that a Sith can just look at a person and
> > count their midichlorins.
>
> MC count: no. However, Vader does sense that the force is strong with
> Luke, during the battle of Yavin.
>

Luke was using the Force at the time. There's no eveidence that Leia was using
the Force at any time in the prescence of Vader or Palpatine.
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #279373 ] Di, 06 Juni 2006 18:51
Charles Jones  
In article <nj0hg.225018$eR6.215375 [at] bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
xx [at] xx.xx says...
> Obi-Wan would be busy with Luke and I can't picture Yoda
> breastfeeding little Leia and bringing her up on Dagobah.

Ow! Ow! Ow! Must ... get ... image ... out ... of ... brain! Ow! Ow!

--
Charles Jones [ charlesj [at] frii.com ]
Loveland, Colorado, USA
AIM: LovelandCharles MSN: charlesj68 [at] passport.com
http://www.myspace.com/charlesj68
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #279383 ] Mi, 07 Juni 2006 03:48
Goedel  
David B wrote:

> Solon wrote:
>
> > _SpammersDie_ spoke thusly on 05/06/2006 4:17 PM:

> > > There's no evidence in the films that a Sith can just look at a person and
> > > count their midichlorins.
> >
> > MC count: no. However, Vader does sense that the force is strong with
> > Luke, during the battle of Yavin.
> >
>
> Luke was using the Force at the time. There's no eveidence that Leia was using
> the Force at any time in the prescence of Vader or Palpatine.

There's no evidence either that Anakin was using the force in the
presence of Qui-Gon. Still, Qui-Gon sensed the boy had special powers
pretty much when he first met him.

As for the midi-chlorian count, I didn't say the Sith could do it. My
point was that, if Vader or Palpatine ever suspected Leia was
force-sensitive, they could always draw a blood sample from her to get
a midi-chlorian count (again, just as Qui-Gon did with Anakin).
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #279388 ] Mi, 07 Juni 2006 06:57
SpammersDie  
"Marcelo Bruno" <bruno [at] ele.ita.br> wrote in message
news:1149644933.831065.254690 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> David B wrote:
>
>> Solon wrote:
>>
>> > _SpammersDie_ spoke thusly on 05/06/2006 4:17 PM:
>
>> > > There's no evidence in the films that a Sith can just look at a
>> > > person and
>> > > count their midichlorins.
>> >
>> > MC count: no. However, Vader does sense that the force is strong with
>> > Luke, during the battle of Yavin.
>> >
>>
>> Luke was using the Force at the time. There's no eveidence that Leia was
>> using
>> the Force at any time in the prescence of Vader or Palpatine.
>
> There's no evidence either that Anakin was using the force in the
> presence of Qui-Gon. Still, Qui-Gon sensed the boy had special powers
> pretty much when he first met him.

And I didn't see any evidence that QGJ sensed the boy's Force potential on
their first meeting. He didn't spare two seconds worth of attention to the
tyke in the shop.

It wasn't until many scenes later that QGJ postulated that Anakin was
Force-sensitive and that was after the revelation that Anakin was a
professional podracer - a sport well beyond the reflex range of mortal human
beings, let alone 9-year old mortal human beings. There was no Jedi remote
Force-reveal spellcasting going on - it was simple deductive logic that any
educated Republic citizen in that era could have done.

There's no reason to believe that the Chancellor had a similar opportunity
to deduce Leia's Force potential. Any encounter between him and Leia were
probably in the Senate Chamber where there were thousands of beings. Senator
Organa knew what was at stake and as the King of Alderaan, he would have
been in a position to bury all the records of Leia's podracing trophies and
all the police reports of her teachers who were found mysteriously dead with
broken necks after final exams and any other inconvenient childhood
incidents that might have exposed her true identity as Lady Vader. Unlike
Luke, Leia presumably is sufficiently in touch with the state of the galaxy
to know that the Jedi are persona-non-grata under the Sidious administration
and so isn't going to knowingly behave publically in any way that suggests
she is one (especially when she herself doesn't know she is one.)
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #279414 ] Fr, 09 Juni 2006 01:26
charlie12345  
If the original SW was to be made in todays climate of homogeny between
the sexes, wouldn't yoda have trained both Luke and Leia and have them
face off Vader. What a scene that would be.


SpammersDie wrote:
> "Marcelo Bruno" <bruno [at] ele.ita.br> wrote in message
> news:1149644933.831065.254690 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> > David B wrote:
> >
> >> Solon wrote:
> >>
> >> > _SpammersDie_ spoke thusly on 05/06/2006 4:17 PM:
> >
> >> > > There's no evidence in the films that a Sith can just look at a
> >> > > person and
> >> > > count their midichlorins.
> >> >
> >> > MC count: no. However, Vader does sense that the force is strong with
> >> > Luke, during the battle of Yavin.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Luke was using the Force at the time. There's no eveidence that Leia was
> >> using
> >> the Force at any time in the prescence of Vader or Palpatine.
> >
> > There's no evidence either that Anakin was using the force in the
> > presence of Qui-Gon. Still, Qui-Gon sensed the boy had special powers
> > pretty much when he first met him.
>
> And I didn't see any evidence that QGJ sensed the boy's Force potential on
> their first meeting. He didn't spare two seconds worth of attention to the
> tyke in the shop.
>
> It wasn't until many scenes later that QGJ postulated that Anakin was
> Force-sensitive and that was after the revelation that Anakin was a
> professional podracer - a sport well beyond the reflex range of mortal human
> beings, let alone 9-year old mortal human beings. There was no Jedi remote
> Force-reveal spellcasting going on - it was simple deductive logic that any
> educated Republic citizen in that era could have done.
>
> There's no reason to believe that the Chancellor had a similar opportunity
> to deduce Leia's Force potential. Any encounter between him and Leia were
> probably in the Senate Chamber where there were thousands of beings. Senator
> Organa knew what was at stake and as the King of Alderaan, he would have
> been in a position to bury all the records of Leia's podracing trophies and
> all the police reports of her teachers who were found mysteriously dead with
> broken necks after final exams and any other inconvenient childhood
> incidents that might have exposed her true identity as Lady Vader. Unlike
> Luke, Leia presumably is sufficiently in touch with the state of the galaxy
> to know that the Jedi are persona-non-grata under the Sidious administration
> and so isn't going to knowingly behave publically in any way that suggests
> she is one (especially when she herself doesn't know she is one.)
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #279435 ] Sa, 10 Juni 2006 11:54
Tellmeaboutit  
There are probably lots of people who are force sensitive, but Palp and
Vader don't exactly want to start the Jedi's up again do they? Why should
they take notice of Leia among the many others who have *potential* to use
the Force?

There are always two Sith, a master and an apprentice.



"Marcelo Bruno" <bruno [at] ele.ita.br> wrote in message
news:1149517077.284111.10680 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> It appears from Leia's first scene with Vader in ANH that she had met
> him before. For sure, being a member of the Imperial Senate, chances
> are Leia had also met Palpatine several times before, either in social
> functions or during sessions of the Senate itself. I wonder then how
> come neither Vader nor Palpatine sensed Leia was force-sensitive. Even
> if she was unaware of her powers and did not consciously use them,
> still the Sith should have sensed something or noticed she had "Jedi
> reflexes", shouldn't they ? After all, when Qui-Gon first met Anakin
> for example, he immediately felt there was something special about the
> boy. Besides, in case Palpatine or Vader suspected something, but were
> somehow in doubt, they could always secretly get hold of a blood sample
> from Leia and test it to get a midchlorian count, as Qui-Gon did with
> Anakin.
>
> In fact, the whole logic of sending Leia to live with Bail Organa seems
> flawed to me: if the idea was to hide her from the emperor, why put her
> in a position where, due to her state obligations as royal princess of
> Alderaan, she would eventually meet Palpatine anyway ? Perhaps Obi and
> Yoda did not care that much about Leia's future and put all their
> hopes on her brother instead. Still, that would be a very recklesss
> position: if Palpatine found out about Leia and persuaded her to turn
> to the dark side rather than killing her, she could become "a great
> asset" for the Sith and a threat to Luke himself.
>
Re: Leia x Vader and the emperor [message #279436 ] Sa, 10 Juni 2006 11:56
Tellmeaboutit  
Anikin was really good at "fixing things" and admitted to being a pod racer,
something only non-humans with alien reflexes were able to do.


"Marcelo Bruno" <bruno [at] ele.ita.br> wrote in message
news:1149644933.831065.254690 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> David B wrote:
>
>> Solon wrote:
>>
>> > _SpammersDie_ spoke thusly on 05/06/2006 4:17 PM:
>
>> > > There's no evidence in the films that a Sith can just look at a
>> > > person and
>> > > count their midichlorins.
>> >
>> > MC count: no. However, Vader does sense that the force is strong with
>> > Luke, during the battle of Yavin.
>> >
>>
>> Luke was using the Force at the time. There's no eveidence that Leia was
>> using
>> the Force at any time in the prescence of Vader or Palpatine.
>
> There's no evidence either that Anakin was using the force in the
> presence of Qui-Gon. Still, Qui-Gon sensed the boy had special powers
> pretty much when he first met him.
>
> As for the midi-chlorian count, I didn't say the Sith could do it. My
> point was that, if Vader or Palpatine ever suspected Leia was
> force-sensitive, they could always draw a blood sample from her to get
> a midi-chlorian count (again, just as Qui-Gon did with Anakin).
>
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