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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Re: Tengwar follow nature's lines
| Re: Tengwar follow nature's lines [message #274427] |
Di, 23 Mai 2006 00:44 |
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"Belba Grubb" <trungsisterfan [at] yahoo.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1148234857.545421.232770 [at] y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> This is a really stupid question, but I thought in one of his letters
> he said his Cirith were Anglo-Saxon runes. He didn't invent those,
> too? Or perhaps he just used ASR on /The Hobbit/ cover?
Tolkien certainly did not invent the Anglo-Saxon runes, though it is
quite understandable that he was familiar with them. For one thing they are
quite distinct from the Cirth of Daeron, save in that both consist of
angular lines and not curves, because both were meant to be cut in eg. wood.
The Anglo-Saxon runes are closely related to the Norse Futhark (runic
alphabet, so-called because the first six runes were f-u-th-a-r-k), and
these runes were derivatives of the Latin letters, which one or more
northern Europeans must have known and adapted to their own needs, as
Kyrillos did with the Greek script, producing the modern Cyrillic script. I
don't know how old the northern European runes are, but they certainly
precede the Viking Age, and their earliest use seems to have been magical -
they were considered to be tools of magic, used eg. to declare ownership.
You would inscribe your favourite spear with your name and a specially
magical phrase such as "ga-ga-ga". This would certainly make a thief wet
his pants at the thought of nicking it. Or you would inscribe a T-rune,
first letter in the name of the war-god Tiw (whom Tuesday is named after),
to make the spear deadlier to the foe. Sunlight and iron were at least at
some times thought detrimental to the runic magic, as evidenced from an
inscription on a stone in Norway from the Iron age: the stone was evidently
laid with the text downwards, pressed into the ground. "Ni s sol sut uk ni
s saxe stain skorinn" = "Not is sun sought and not is sword stone carved",
meaning that the sun has not seen the runes and iron has not chiselled them.
This is from twenty-five years old memory or so, and may be inaccurate.
The oldest Norse futhark had twenty-four letters, but the younger version
had only sixteen, quite short of the twenty-nine letters we use in our
modern alphabet - the same twenty-six that are used in English, plus three
vowels tacked on the tail end.
In Scandinavia the runes were used until well after the Viking age, and
just as letters are used today, including vicious graffiti ("Áli er strodinn
i rassinn" = "Áli has been fucked in the ass", found in Bergen and carved
during the Hansa Age: the macho old Norse knew and despised homosexuality as
effeminate).
The runes on the cover of the Hobbit are AS runes. Any Viking knowing
his futhark would be able to read them, except that a few of them did not
occur in the Norse Futhark. He would of course be unable to understand the
text, since the text is modern English.
Hrafn.
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| Re: Tengwar follow nature's lines [message #274432 ] |
Di, 23 Mai 2006 14:53 |
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Raven a écrit :
> first letter in the name of the war-god Tiw (whom Tuesday is named after),
This day seems to be a bloody one in every culture : in latin languages
it's Mars'day ("mardi" in French)
> "Ni s sol sut uk ni
> s saxe stain skorinn" = "Not is sun sought and not is sword stone carved",
If "saxe" means "sword", then the Saxons called themselves the "Swordsmen"?
--
nfw - adresse valide sur grandefaux.com
> Wasn't Ungoliant committed to creating a world-wide web?
sounds like the sort of evil thing she'd do. she was probably the
first spammer, too. -- Count Menelvagor in RABT--
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| Cirth of the L.R. and Anglo-Saxon runes (Was Re: Tengwar follow nature's lines) [message #274436 ] |
Di, 23 Mai 2006 17:31 |
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Raven wrote:
> The runes on the cover of the Hobbit are AS runes. Any Viking knowing
> his futhark would be able to read them, except that a few of them did not
> occur in the Norse Futhark. He would of course be unable to understand the
> text, since the text is modern English.
Just as Frodo knew the Tengwar on the Moria Wall inscription but could
not read them, for they were written in the Mode of Belariand.
Thanks, Raven -- I thought I had read that the runes on /The Hobbit/
cover were in A-S.
This is probably an old story many are familiar with, but FWIW, I have
been tracing it through /Letters/. In a letter dated August 31, 1937,
JRRT says, apparently for /The Hobbit/ as a whole, although he does not
definitely spell that out, that the runes are Anglo-Saxon. (Of course,
it would be obvious to anyone familiar with those runes.) In December
of that year, he asks Stanley Unwin if it would be a good thing to
provide a runic alphabet, since he has had queries about the runes and
has already had to write one out for several people. This does not
sound at all like the type of work (play, perhaps is a better word)
that he devoted to the Tengwar.
In a letter to /The Observer/ that was published on February 20, 1938,
he gives a story-internal explanation of the runes, saying they were
"similar to, but not identical, with the runes of Anglo-Saxon
inscriptions. There is doubtless an historical connection between the
two," and contrasts it with the Tengwar or "Feanorian alphabet,
generally used at that time, (which) was of Elvish origin." Here it
sounds as though, from an external POV, the Chief Elf was absorbed in
his Tengwar and for the dwarf runes just used A-S, with perhaps a few
slight variations to give it a story flavor.
Letter 118, written at Christmas time 1948, shows, per Humphrey, "a
form of Angerthas or dwart-runes close to that used in /The Lord of the
Rings/ but not identical" (there are also two versions of the greeting
in Feanorian script, one with tehtar and the other with vowels
represented by full letters). Here there seems to be more development
of the runes into a distinct form of their own.
Letter 245 on June 25, 1963, was written partly to answer the reader
question: "In the 'English runes' used for Anglo-Saxon instructions,
the rune [imagine it here] does not stand for G as it does in /The Lord
of the Rings./ Why not?". JRRT replies that "The 'cirth' or runes in
the 'L.R.' were invented for that story and, within it, have no
supposed historical connexion with the Germanic Runic alphabet, to
which the English gave its most elaborate development." He goes into a
further discussion of details, but that's certainly quite a change from
his comment in 1938 about "doubtless a historical connection" between
the runes used in /The Hobbit/ and A.S. runes (probably a newspaper
editor changed the spelling of 'connection' in the 1938 letter, or it
is a misprint in the book).
It appears that the cirth evolved after the stories' publication,
perhaps in response to reader interest. JRRT would most likely have
tried to work on them from the perspective of the Tengwar, and Dan
Smith has attempted at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/cirth/tengwar2cirt h.htm to
"analyze the work of the Elvish craftsmen in Beleriand and see how they
developed the Cirth alphabet from the Tengwar alphabet." Very
interesting. (See also his
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/cirth/index.htm for a general
discussion of and fonts for the cirth and
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/cirth/index.htm for a brief
history of runes in Europe, including two versions of futhark runes.)
Barb
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| Re: Tengwar follow nature's lines [message #274442 ] |
Di, 23 Mai 2006 21:06 |
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"nfw" <sp [at] m.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
news:tBDcg.69231$GX4.1193449 [at] wagner.videotron.net...
> Raven a écrit :
> > "Ni s sol sut uk ni
> > s saxe stain skorinn" = "Not is sun sought and not is sword stone
> > carved",
> If "saxe" means "sword", then the Saxons called themselves the
> "Swordsmen"?
"Sax" appears (to me, of very limited knowledge) to have had various
meanings in various languages and at various times, but generally variations
on the theme "metal blade". In modern Scand "saks" means "scissors": two
short metal blades meeting. "Sax" has also meant "short stabbing-sword",
and the Saxons got their name because they favoured this weapon. The Angles
got their name because they originated in the Angle, the North Sea coast of
modern Germany more or less.
Rabe.
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| Re: Tengwar follow nature's lines [message #274448 ] |
Di, 23 Mai 2006 21:57 |
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nfw wrote:
> Raven a =E9crit :
> > first letter in the name of the war-god Tiw (whom Tuesday is named afte=
r),
>
> This day seems to be a bloody one in every culture : in latin languages
> it's Mars'day ("mardi" in French)
The custom of using a seven-day week came from the Babylonians, who
named each day of the week after one of their deities. Tuesday was
the day of the war-god Nergal. Later cultures which inherited the
custom of a seven-day time division simply replaced Babylonian
deities with the nearest equivalents from their own pantheons. See
http://www.takeourword.com/Issue104.html for more.
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