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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Harry -V communications not from Horcrux
| Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270297] |
Mo, 29 Mai 2006 17:20 |
|
I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it again
This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
choice
"In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
(without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One –
to give him tools no other wizard possessed – the scar and the ability
it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270301 ] |
Mo, 29 Mai 2006 19:40 |
|
Thom Madura wrote:
> I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it again
>
> This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
> choice
>
>
>
> "In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
> his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
> (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One -
> to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
> it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
>
> So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
horcrux...
--
Jane Grey
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270302 ] |
Mo, 29 Mai 2006 20:40 |
|
Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
> Thom Madura wrote:
> > I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it again
> >
> > This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
> > choice
> >
> >
> >
> > "In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
> > his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
> > (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One -
> > to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
> > it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
> >
> > So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
>
> but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
> abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
> extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
> Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
> horcrux...
Some people just don't give up...
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270309 ] |
Mo, 29 Mai 2006 21:55 |
|
"pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ee55093b6ffbe0a98a835 [at] nntp.dsl.pipex.com...
> Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
> > Thom Madura wrote:
> > > I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it
again
> > >
> > > This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the
Neville/Harry
> > > choice
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates
for
> > > his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
> > > (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen
One -
> > > to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
> > > it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
> > >
> > > So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
> >
> > but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
> > abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
> > extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
> > Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
> > horcrux...
>
> Some people just don't give up...
Be patient with Jane. She wants Harry to commit harrycarry to get rid of
Voldemort once and for all.
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270311 ] |
Mo, 29 Mai 2006 22:08 |
|
Jane Grey wrote:
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>>I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it again
>>
>>This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
>>choice
>>
>>
>>
>>"In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
>>his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
>>(without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One -
>>to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
>>it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
>>
>>So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
>
>
> but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
> abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
> extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
> Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
> horcrux...
>
> --
> Jane Grey
>
OK- so where is the scar on Nagini then?
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270314 ] |
Mo, 29 Mai 2006 22:20 |
|
Jane Grey wrote:
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>>I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it again
>>
>>This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
>>choice
>>
>>
>>
>>"In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
>>his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
>>(without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One -
>>to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
>>it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
>>
>>So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
>
>
> but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
> abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
> extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
> Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
> horcrux...
>
> --
> Jane Grey
>
The point is that she did say that it was the scar that did it - (THe
ability IT conferred). Presumably she knows as much about the scar and
horcruxes as anyone (Probably more even) - and she atrributed it to the
scar and NOT a Horcrux.
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270345 ] |
Di, 30 Mai 2006 08:23 |
|
"Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1148924453.070315.191590 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> Thom Madura wrote:
>> I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it
>> again
>>
>> This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
>> choice
>>
>>
>>
>> "In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
>> his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
>> (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One -
>> to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
>> it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
>>
>> So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
>
> but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
> abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
> extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
> Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
> horcrux...
>
> --
> Jane Grey
>
I think she means that his scar is a reminder of the powers that Voldemort
gave to him. Remember, this is not an ordinary scar, but it is a cursed
wound. Definitely not an ordinary scar.
--
Kilroy was here.
"Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270356 ] |
Di, 30 Mai 2006 09:47 |
|
On 29 May 2006 10:40:53 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
>Thom Madura wrote:
>> I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it again
>>
>> This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
>> choice
>>
>>
>>
>> "In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
>> his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
>> (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One -
>> to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
>> it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
>>
>> So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
>
>but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
>abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
>extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
>Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
>horcrux...
I like how Jane thinks.
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270357 ] |
Di, 30 Mai 2006 09:48 |
|
On Mon, 29 May 2006 19:40:57 +0100, pooter <a [at] bff.com> wrote:
>Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
>> Thom Madura wrote:
>> > I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it again
>> >
>> > This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
>> > choice
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
>> > his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
>> > (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One -
>> > to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
>> > it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
>> >
>> > So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
>>
>> but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
>> abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
>> extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
>> Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
>> horcrux...
>
>Some people just don't give up...
Tell us about it.
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270358 ] |
Di, 30 Mai 2006 09:48 |
|
On Mon, 29 May 2006 13:55:09 -0600, "Brent Braten"
<bbraten [at] bresnan.net> wrote:
>
>"pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.1ee55093b6ffbe0a98a835 [at] nntp.dsl.pipex.com...
>> Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
>> > Thom Madura wrote:
>> > > I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it
>again
>> > >
>> > > This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the
>Neville/Harry
>> > > choice
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates
>for
>> > > his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
>> > > (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen
>One -
>> > > to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
>> > > it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
>> > >
>> > > So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
>> >
>> > but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
>> > abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
>> > extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
>> > Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
>> > horcrux...
>>
>> Some people just don't give up...
>
>Be patient with Jane. She wants Harry to commit harrycarry to get rid of
>Voldemort once and for all.
>
Not necessarily Jane, but quite possibly Jo does.
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270366 ] |
Di, 30 Mai 2006 13:55 |
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Kilroy wrote:
> "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1148924453.070315.191590 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Thom Madura wrote:
>>
>>>I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it
>>>again
>>>
>>>This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
>>>choice
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
>>>his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
>>>(without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One -
>>>to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
>>>it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
>>>
>>>So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
>>
>>but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
>>abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
>>extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
>>Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
>>horcrux...
>>
>>--
>>Jane Grey
>>
>
> I think she means that his scar is a reminder of the powers that Voldemort
> gave to him. Remember, this is not an ordinary scar, but it is a cursed
> wound. Definitely not an ordinary scar.
Read it again
It clearly says that the scar conferred the ability.
THe scar is not a reminder.
Not a horcrux - the scar conferred the ability.
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270373 ] |
Di, 30 Mai 2006 21:40 |
|
Jane Grey wrote:
> but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
> abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
> extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
> Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
> horcrux...
Maybe because it's, oh say, MAGIC? Which is, of course, the entire
concept of the entire series of books?
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270397 ] |
Mi, 31 Mai 2006 06:57 |
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On 30 May 2006 12:40:10 -0700, "David" <dmclallen [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>Jane Grey wrote:
>
>> but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
>> abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
>> extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
>> Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
>> horcrux...
>
>Maybe because it's, oh say, MAGIC? Which is, of course, the entire
>concept of the entire series of books?
Too easy. That's like saying V survived by magic. You need a
specific kind of magic.
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270401 ] |
Mi, 31 Mai 2006 09:00 |
|
In article <vf8q729t06veqg62d87rf2rod6jhd3ftan [at] 4ax.com>,
Toon <toon [at] toon.com> wrote:
>On 30 May 2006 12:40:10 -0700, "David" <dmclallen [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Jane Grey wrote:
>>
>>> but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
>>> abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
>>> extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
>>> Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
>>> horcrux...
>>
>>Maybe because it's, oh say, MAGIC? Which is, of course, the entire
>>concept of the entire series of books?
>
>Too easy. That's like saying V survived by magic. You need a
>specific kind of magic.
Every time Harry remembers the night his parents died - even when
the memory is stimulated by a boggart fake-Dementor - he finds himself
in a swirling white fog, and once the swirling white fog is _inside him_.
Could the "white fog" be the way Harry perceives the part of Voldemort
that became part of him? When Voldemort lost his body, he was vapor,
and that's not so different from fog.
=Tamar
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270424 ] |
Mi, 31 Mai 2006 19:23 |
|
> Every time Harry remembers the night his parents died - even when
> the memory is stimulated by a boggart fake-Dementor - he finds himself
> in a swirling white fog, and once the swirling white fog is _inside him_.
> Could the "white fog" be the way Harry perceives the part of Voldemort
> that became part of him? When Voldemort lost his body, he was vapor,
> and that's not so different from fog.
>
> =Tamar
Harry can love. Voldemort, on the other hand, can't. If there was a
piece of Vs soul insede Harry, he wouldn't be able to love.
And remember, V tried to possess Harry in the MoM and he wasn't able
to, because Harry has "powers the dark lord doesn't know". why on
earth would Vhave tried to possess H if there was a piece of him inside
H's body? He could simply kind of "switched it on" or something like
that...
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270431 ] |
Mi, 31 Mai 2006 22:11 |
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LuLu wrote:
>>Every time Harry remembers the night his parents died - even when
>>the memory is stimulated by a boggart fake-Dementor - he finds himself
>>in a swirling white fog, and once the swirling white fog is _inside him_.
>>Could the "white fog" be the way Harry perceives the part of Voldemort
>>that became part of him? When Voldemort lost his body, he was vapor,
>>and that's not so different from fog.
>>
>>=Tamar
>
>
> Harry can love. Voldemort, on the other hand, can't. If there was a
> piece of Vs soul insede Harry, he wouldn't be able to love.
No - this is wrong. As long as Harry had a part of his soul inside him -
he would be able to love. I am not so sure that V cannot love either -
especially now that he has some of Harry's blood in him.
> And remember, V tried to possess Harry in the MoM and he wasn't able
> to, because Harry has "powers the dark lord doesn't know". why on
> earth would Vhave tried to possess H if there was a piece of him inside
> H's body? He could simply kind of "switched it on" or something like
> that...
>
Remember that V never heard the prophecy fully. His attempt to possess
Harry was merely a ploy to get DD to kill Harry to try to kill V. Of
course - DD knew about V's horcruxes and didn't fall for it. (IE - Harry
would have died - but V could have again come back)
Of course - you are correct that V should have known better if Harry
really was a Horcrux and a Horcrux could do all the things people have
imagined in this newsgroup - beyond mere speculation. We have no
example of a living, breathing, real human Horcrux in order to make a
valid comparison or inference.
However - Harry is not a Horcrux - there is just too much evidence
against it. JKR has stated on her website that the communications
between V and Harry are as a result of the scar. SHe has also said -
through DD - that the effort to create a Horcrux the night of Lily and
James" death FAILED. I would also think that if V himself could not
stand to be "inside" Harry for even a short time - that a part of V's
soul would have had similar problems as well.
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270447 ] |
Do, 01 Juni 2006 06:56 |
|
On Wed, 31 May 2006 07:00:04 -0000, dicconf [at] radix.net (Richard Eney)
wrote:
>In article <vf8q729t06veqg62d87rf2rod6jhd3ftan [at] 4ax.com>,
>Toon <toon [at] toon.com> wrote:
>>On 30 May 2006 12:40:10 -0700, "David" <dmclallen [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Jane Grey wrote:
>>>
>>>> but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
>>>> abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
>>>> extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
>>>> Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
>>>> horcrux...
>>>
>>>Maybe because it's, oh say, MAGIC? Which is, of course, the entire
>>>concept of the entire series of books?
>>
>>Too easy. That's like saying V survived by magic. You need a
>>specific kind of magic.
>
>Every time Harry remembers the night his parents died - even when
>the memory is stimulated by a boggart fake-Dementor - he finds himself
>in a swirling white fog, and once the swirling white fog is _inside him_.
>Could the "white fog" be the way Harry perceives the part of Voldemort
>that became part of him? When Voldemort lost his body, he was vapor,
>and that's not so different from fog.
>
>=Tamar
Maybe it's V's memories he's remembering?
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #270448 ] |
Do, 01 Juni 2006 06:58 |
|
On 31 May 2006 10:23:40 -0700, "LuLu" <Pilgrim.Grey [at] web.de> wrote:
>> Every time Harry remembers the night his parents died - even when
>> the memory is stimulated by a boggart fake-Dementor - he finds himself
>> in a swirling white fog, and once the swirling white fog is _inside him_.
>> Could the "white fog" be the way Harry perceives the part of Voldemort
>> that became part of him? When Voldemort lost his body, he was vapor,
>> and that's not so different from fog.
>>
>> =Tamar
>
>Harry can love. Voldemort, on the other hand, can't. If there was a
>piece of Vs soul insede Harry, he wouldn't be able to love.
>And remember, V tried to possess Harry in the MoM and he wasn't able
>to, because Harry has "powers the dark lord doesn't know". why on
>earth would Vhave tried to possess H if there was a piece of him inside
>H's body? He could simply kind of "switched it on" or something like
>that...
He can't switch on what he doesn't know is there. As for the love, he
has Lily's love in him from the resurrection. He seems perfectly
fine. Apart form being unable to ever kill a kid.
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281670 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 13:41 |
|
Brent Braten wrote:
> "pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1ee55093b6ffbe0a98a835 [at] nntp.dsl.pipex.com...
> > Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
> > > Thom Madura wrote:
> > > > I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it
> again
> > > >
> > > > This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the
> Neville/Harry
> > > > choice
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates
> for
> > > > his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
> > > > (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen
> One -
> > > > to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
> > > > it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
> > > >
> > > > So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
> > >
> > > but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
> > > abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
> > > extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
> > > Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
> > > horcrux...
> >
> > Some people just don't give up...
i'll give up when there is due cause
> Be patient with Jane. She wants Harry to commit harrycarry to get rid of
> Voldemort once and for all.
that's just not true! I don't want harry to commit suicide. I think
that JKR will, for a time, have harry think he will have to. But i
think he will find a way to destroyed the scar-horcrux without harming
himself.
--
Jane Grey
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281671 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 13:44 |
|
Thom Madura wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
> > Thom Madura wrote:
> >
> >>I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it again
> >>
> >>This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
> >>choice
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>"In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
> >>his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
> >>(without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One -
> >>to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
> >>it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
> >>
> >>So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
> >
> >
> > but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
> > abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
> > extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
> > Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
> > horcrux...
> >
> > --
> > Jane Grey
> >
>
> OK- so where is the scar on Nagini then?
The AK never rebounded off Nagini so she doesn't have such a scar.
Nagini (or another part of her) is the horcrux. If harry's scar is the
horcrux then the scar confers those abilities because it is a horcrux.
--
Jane Grey
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281672 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 13:46 |
|
Thom Madura wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
>
> > Thom Madura wrote:
> >
> >>I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it again
> >>
> >>This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
> >>choice
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>"In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
> >>his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
> >>(without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One -
> >>to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
> >>it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
> >>
> >>So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
> >
> >
> > but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
> > abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
> > extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
> > Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
> > horcrux...
> >
> > --
> > Jane Grey
> >
>
> The point is that she did say that it was the scar that did it - (THe
> ability IT conferred). Presumably she knows as much about the scar and
> horcruxes as anyone (Probably more even) - and she atrributed it to the
> scar and NOT a Horcrux.
but she wouldn't atrribute it to a horcrux and reveal a future plot.
but if the scar is a horcrux then harry could still be a horcrux and
JKR would not have contradicted that.
--
Jane Grey
|
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281674 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 14:10 |
|
Jane Grey wrote:
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>>Jane Grey wrote:
>>
>>>Thom Madura wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it again
>>>>
>>>>This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the Neville/Harry
>>>>choice
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for
>>>>his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
>>>>(without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One -
>>>>to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
>>>>it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
>>>>
>>>>So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
>>>
>>>
>>>but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
>>>abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
>>>extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
>>>Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
>>>horcrux...
>>>
>>>--
>>>Jane Grey
>>>
>>
>>OK- so where is the scar on Nagini then?
>
>
> The AK never rebounded off Nagini so she doesn't have such a scar.
> Nagini (or another part of her) is the horcrux. If harry's scar is the
> horcrux then the scar confers those abilities because it is a horcrux.
>
>
> --
> Jane Grey
>
No - JKR clearly says that the scar tranferred the powers.
We have no incidence in the books of a Horcrux transfering powers to a
living person. We do - however - have a direct statement from JKR that
the SCAR did so. WE have no connection between the SCAR and Horcruxes
anywhere in the books.
ANd Nagini doesnt have a scar because being made a Horcrux doesn't
create one. It makes absolutely no sense for the Horcrux spell to
IDENTIFY itself in any way - otherwise - every Horcrux would be easy to
spot - just look for a scar. However - NONE of the identified Horcruxes
in the books have a scar (Which you correctly point out came from the AK
- although it rebounded onto V - it did not rebound onto Harry).
THat said - we now know directly from JKR that Harry's " V powers" did
not come from being a Horcrux. WE also know that V failed in creating
his last Horcrux the night of the Massacre. We also know that V created
his last horcrux - Nagini - after that night - so V KNEW he did not
create a Horcrux that night. If he thought it was a possibility - he
would have looked into it - since the number 7 is so important to him.
Subsequent to that night - V has tried on at least two occasions to kill
Harry - hardly something he would do if he had made him a Horcrux.
Even more telling. AT the time of the massacre - V knew that Harry would
have the power to "vanquish the dark lord". Since he wanted to ELIMINATE
that possibility - whenever possible - he certainly would not have
chosen Harry to even be a Horcrux - since V made it his need to kill
Harry. V certainly would not have chosen the one person he KNEW he had
to eliminate as a Horcrux for one of his soul fragments.
So -
1 - Harry got his powers from the scar
2 - V would not have even chosen Harry to be a Horcrux
3 - V clearly wants a total of 7 pieces of soul - his - plus 6 Horcruxes
- since it is the ultimate evil number.
4 - V did not create his last horcrux that night
5 - After that night - V tried to kill Harry at least twice
6 - V created his last Horcrux (Nagini) after that night - bringing the
total to seven - without Harry.
Harry is not a Horcrux
|
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|
| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281677 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 14:16 |
|
Jane Grey wrote:
> Brent Braten wrote:
>
>>"pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
>>news:MPG.1ee55093b6ffbe0a98a835 [at] nntp.dsl.pipex.com...
>>
>>>Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
>>>
>>>>Thom Madura wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw it
>>
>>again
>>
>>>>>This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the
>>
>>Neville/Harry
>>
>>>>>choice
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates
>>
>>for
>>
>>>>>his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
>>>>>(without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen
>>
>>One -
>>
>>>>>to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability
>>>>>it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
>>>>>
>>>>>So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
>>>>
>>>>but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry these
>>>>abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry with
>>>>extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
>>>>Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
>>>>horcrux...
>>>
>>>Some people just don't give up...
>
>
> i'll give up when there is due cause
>
>
>>Be patient with Jane. She wants Harry to commit harrycarry to get rid of
>>Voldemort once and for all.
>
>
> that's just not true! I don't want harry to commit suicide.
If he were doing it to save his friends, it would be the ultimate act of
love, and the power of that act would destroy Voldemort at the same time.
--
-------------------------
"Work like no one is watching,
Dance like you've never been hurt, and
Love like you don't need the money"
\
=8{B
\
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281681 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 14:42 |
|
duh wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
<snip>
> > that's just not true! I don't want harry to commit suicide.
>
>
> If he were doing it to save his friends, it would be the ultimate act of
> love, and the power of that act would destroy Voldemort at the same time.
hmm, cheesy :) but it could well be what JKR has in mind...
--
Jane Grey
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281722 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 23:07 |
|
"Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1149939669.749132.165670 [at] m38g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Brent Braten wrote:
> > "pooter" <a [at] bff.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1ee55093b6ffbe0a98a835 [at] nntp.dsl.pipex.com...
> > > Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
> > > > Thom Madura wrote:
> > > > > I knew I had seen this somewhere - but I was over at JKR's and saw
it
> > again
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a quote from JKR's site - partly in answer to the
> > Neville/Harry
> > > > > choice
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two
candidates
> > for
> > > > > his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also
> > > > > (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen
> > One -
> > > > > to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the
ability
> > > > > it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "
> > > > >
> > > > > So - the scar give Harry his link to Riddle.
> > > >
> > > > but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry
these
> > > > abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry
with
> > > > extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
> > > > Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
> > > > horcrux...
Exactly - it's no ordinary scar, it's a 2way window. But Voldy can't
actually use it to possess Harry because of Lilly's love in his blood.
Although since Voldy's "rebirth" I'm not sure how/if that protection will
continue.
> > > Some people just don't give up...
>
> i'll give up when there is due cause
>
> > Be patient with Jane. She wants Harry to commit harrycarry to get rid
of
> > Voldemort once and for all.
>
> that's just not true! I don't want harry to commit suicide. I think
> that JKR will, for a time, have harry think he will have to. But i
> think he will find a way to destroyed the scar-horcrux without harming
> himself.
Or perhaps Harry thinks that what he's going to do to get rid of the horcrux
will also kill himself too but he still does it anyway because it's the
right thing to do, not the easy one (just as Dd and Snape did on the tower).
But of course, it turns out that it doesn't kill him after all.
I hope...
DaveD
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281723 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 23:33 |
|
Thom Madura wrote:
<snip>
> No - JKR clearly says that the scar tranferred the powers.
> We have no incidence in the books of a Horcrux transfering powers to a
> living person.
Remember in HBP when;
Dumbledore paused for a moment, marshaling his thought, and then said,
"Four years ago, I received what I considered certain proof that
Voldemort had split his soul."
"Where?" asked Harry. "How?"
"You handed it to me, Harry," said Dumbledore. "The diary, Riddles
diary, the one giving instructions on how to reopen the Chamber of
Secrets."
"I don't understand, sir," said Harry.
"Well, although I did not see the Riddle who came out of the
di=ADary, what you described to me was a phenomenon I had never
wit=ADnessed. A mere memory starting to act and think for itself? A mere
memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had
fallen? No, something much more sinister had lived inside that book.
..=2E. a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it. The diary had been a
Horcrux...."
>From this statement we can extrapolate that Tom-Riddle-the-Diary also
had LV's powers because it was a horcrux. So a wizard's power resides
in their soul and transfering a soul fragment into a living person
would result in the person having the wizard's powers.
> We do - however - have a direct statement from JKR that
> the SCAR did so. WE have no connection between the SCAR and Horcruxes
> anywhere in the books.
But we don't know when the scar confered those abilities. Did the scar
do so on creation or moments later when it was made into a horcrux?
> ANd Nagini doesnt have a scar because being made a Horcrux doesn't
> create one.
i am not suggesting it creates one. I am suggesting that the newly
created scar (created by the rebounded AK) was made into a horcrux a
split 2nd later when the horcrux creating spell hit it.
> It makes absolutely no sense for the Horcrux spell to
> IDENTIFY itself in any way - otherwise - every Horcrux would be easy to
> spot - just look for a scar. However - NONE of the identified Horcruxes
> in the books have a scar (Which you correctly point out came from the AK
> - although it rebounded onto V - it did not rebound onto Harry).
i agree with this bit. I do not identify the scar with horcruxes. I am
speculating that the scar happened, to become a horcrux moments after
it was created by the rebounding AK.
> THat said - we now know directly from JKR that Harry's " V powers" did
> not come from being a Horcrux.
we do not know this. she did not say 'the scar is not a horcrux'
> WE also know that V failed in creating
> his last Horcrux the night of the Massacre.
we know that he failed in his intention of using harry's death to
create his final horcrux. that is ALL we know. We know this because
harry is still alive.
> We also know that V created
> his last horcrux - Nagini - after that night - so V KNEW he did not
> create a Horcrux that night.
no quite, LV /thought/ he didn't create a horcrux that night. he also
thought Lily woud flee and leave harry behind given the choice. Yeah,
he made a few vital mistakes that night.
> If he thought it was a possibility - he
> would have looked into it - since the number 7 is so important to him.
Surely you can't expect him to be aware of what is going on when he is
being painfully ripped from his body?
> Subsequent to that night - V has tried on at least two occasions to kill
> Harry - hardly something he would do if he had made him a Horcrux.
as DD says in HBP "[LV] believed that in killing you, he was destroying
the danger the prophecy had outlined. He believed he was making himself
invin=ADcible." Now concidering that DD said that "...to confide a part
of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is
obviously a very risky business." What do you think would be more
important to LV? being invincible or having harry alive as a horcrux?
> Even more telling. AT the time of the massacre - V knew that Harry would
> have the power to "vanquish the dark lord". Since he wanted to ELIMINATE
> that possibility - whenever possible - he certainly would not have
> chosen Harry to even be a Horcrux - since V made it his need to kill
> Harry.
For god's sake, you are an annoying old record that just keeps on
spinning the same old tune regardless of what anyone says. As I have
said before, many times, as LV wanted to kill harry he did not INTEND
to make harry a horcrux. Therefore IF harry IS a horcrux, then it must
have happened UNTENTIONALLY. This is backed up by DD when, in CoS, he
says;
"You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly,
"because Lord Voldemort -- who is the last remaining ancestor
of Salazar Slytherin -- can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much
mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he
gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure ...."
note the "...Not something [LV] intended to do" -even spells that LV
cast can go awry.
> V certainly would not have chosen the one person he KNEW he had
> to eliminate as a Horcrux for one of his soul fragments.
No one is saying LV CHOSE for harry to be a horcrux.
> So -
>
> 1 - Harry got his powers from the scar
because it's a horcrux
> 2 - V would not have even chosen Harry to be a Horcrux
obviously
> 3 - V clearly wants a total of 7 pieces of soul - his - plus 6 Horcruxes
> - since it is the ultimate evil number.
true
> 4 - V did not create his last horcrux that night
not the one he had intended, no
> 5 - After that night - V tried to kill Harry at least twice
but he would have anyway, regardless of whether harry is a horcrux
because LV has other horcruxes, he doesn't need harry-horcrux alive as
much as he needs him dead because of the prophecy saying that only
harry can kill LV.
> 6 - V created his last Horcrux (Nagini) after that night - bringing the
> total to seven - without Harry.
Or so, LV thought, until the night Nagini attacked Arthur Weasley and
he detected harry presence in his head and he had to think again.
> Harry is not a Horcrux
that's still debatable. your tired old moot points hasn't touched the
idea, the sooner you realise that the sooner you can put your head to
realising that there is a real possibility that JKR has planned for
harry to be a horcrux, or least think he is, in book7.
--
Jane Grey
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281724 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 23:41 |
|
Jane Grey wrote:
> From this statement we can extrapolate that Tom-Riddle-the-Diary also
> had LV's powers because it was a horcrux. So a wizard's power resides
> in their soul and transfering a soul fragment into a living person
> would result in the person having the wizard's powers.
I'm not sure that that follows. It doesn't appear that Nagini has
any more powers than the usual ones for her species. And the book
itself, though clearly magical, did not have the powers themselves; the
soul bit did. The soul bit relied on the diary for its existence, so
in some sense the diary had power over the bit, but it did not itself
partake of the bit's powers.
> > Harry is not a Horcrux
>
> that's still debatable. your tired old moot points hasn't touched the
> idea, the sooner you realise that the sooner you can put your head to
> realising that there is a real possibility that JKR has planned for
> harry to be a horcrux, or least think he is, in book7.
I agree it's possible; I'm just not sure it has much explanatory power.
The more explanatory power it has--the more disparate puzzles it can
resolve--the more convincing it is.
--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
|
|
|
| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281725 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 23:51 |
|
DaveD wrote:
> "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
<snip>
> > > > > but she doesn't address /how/ a mere scar manages to give harry
> these
> > > > > abilities -what is special about this scar that it bestows harry
> with
> > > > > extra abilities? Ordinary scars do not give "a magical window into
> > > > > Voldemort's mind" so why does this one? maybe because it is a
> > > > > horcrux...
>
> Exactly - it's no ordinary scar, it's a 2way window. But Voldy can't
> actually use it to possess Harry because of Lilly's love in his blood.
Actually LV could not possess harry becuase of harry's own ability to
love. When LV was possessing harry, he thought of Sirius "...And as
Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creature's coils loosened, the
pain was gone"
> Although since Voldy's "rebirth" I'm not sure how/if that protection will
> continue.
it is strange that harry had to go back to the Dursleys even after LV
took on the protection in GoF thus rendering it useless in protecting
harry from LV.
<snip>
> > that's just not true! I don't want harry to commit suicide. I think
> > that JKR will, for a time, have harry think he will have to. But i
> > think he will find a way to destroyed the scar-horcrux without harming
> > himself.
>
> Or perhaps Harry thinks that what he's going to do to get rid of the horcrux
> will also kill himself too but he still does it anyway because it's the
> right thing to do, not the easy one (just as Dd and Snape did on the tower).
yeah i do agree that this will be another opportunity for harry to show
that he is prepared to die for the greater good.
> But of course, it turns out that it doesn't kill him after all.
>
> I hope...
hehe, yeah, me too.
--
Jane Grey
|
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281726 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 00:07 |
|
Brian Tung wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
> > From this statement we can extrapolate that Tom-Riddle-the-Diary also
> > had LV's powers because it was a horcrux. So a wizard's power resides
> > in their soul and transfering a soul fragment into a living person
> > would result in the person having the wizard's powers.
>
> I'm not sure that that follows. It doesn't appear that Nagini has
> any more powers than the usual ones for her species.
Nagini hasn't got the mental capacity and the waizarding training
needed in order to ultilise LV's power.
> And the book
> itself, though clearly magical, did not have the powers themselves; the
> soul bit did.
yes i agree. i speculate that if you put a soul bit in a person then
the person would have the powers in the soul bit, just as the person
has the powers in their own soul.
> The soul bit relied on the diary for its existence, so
well the soul was encased in the diary
> in some sense the diary had power over the bit, but it did not itself
> partake of the bit's powers.
But the memories of LV's 16 yr old self that LV had put in the diary
used the powers (whilst possessing Ginny) to open the chamber so it had
access to the powers contained in the soulbit because it too was
contained in the diary.
> > > Harry is not a Horcrux
> >
> > that's still debatable. your tired old moot points hasn't touched the
> > idea, the sooner you realise that the sooner you can put your head to
> > realising that there is a real possibility that JKR has planned for
> > harry to be a horcrux, or least think he is, in book7.
>
> I agree it's possible; I'm just not sure it has much explanatory power.
true it only explains how harry got connected to LV
> The more explanatory power it has--the more disparate puzzles it can
> resolve--the more convincing it is.
Or in a JKR book, the more backstory/clues it fits into...
We know that harry has LV's powers and a mental link with him. Have you
noticed that the only other instances of LV powers being used by some
other entity other than himself was TheDiary!TomRiddle? also the only
other instance of a LV mental connection is with Nagini. Now
concidering that Nagini and TheDiary are horcruxes, and concidering
that JKR is yet to explain how harry acquired LV's powers and a mental
connection with him, do you think they could be connected?
--
Jane Grey
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281728 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 00:44 |
|
"DaveD" <davedn1DELETE [at] THESEblueyonderBITS.co.uk> wrote in message
news:_vGig.161204$8W1.13322 [at] fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> Or perhaps Harry thinks that what he's going to do to get rid of the
> horcrux
> will also kill himself too but he still does it anyway because it's the
> right thing to do, not the easy one (just as Dd and Snape did on the
> tower).
>
To quote JKR: "It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more
than our abilities."
Maybe he doesn't actually have to die, just CHOOSE to die!
Bruce
> But of course, it turns out that it doesn't kill him after all.
>
> I hope...
>
> DaveD
>
>
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281733 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 02:25 |
|
Jane Grey wrote:
> Thom Madura wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>No - JKR clearly says that the scar tranferred the powers.
>>We have no incidence in the books of a Horcrux transfering powers to a
>>living person.
>
>
> Remember in HBP when;
>
> Dumbledore paused for a moment, marshaling his thought, and then said,
> "Four years ago, I received what I considered certain proof that
> Voldemort had split his soul."
>
> "Where?" asked Harry. "How?"
>
> "You handed it to me, Harry," said Dumbledore. "The diary, Riddles
> diary, the one giving instructions on how to reopen the Chamber of
> Secrets."
>
> "I don't understand, sir," said Harry.
>
> "Well, although I did not see the Riddle who came out of the
> diary, what you described to me was a phenomenon I had never
> witnessed. A mere memory starting to act and think for itself? A mere
> memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had
> fallen? No, something much more sinister had lived inside that book.
> ... a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it. The diary had been a
> Horcrux...."
>
>>From this statement we can extrapolate that Tom-Riddle-the-Diary also
> had LV's powers because it was a horcrux. So a wizard's power resides
> in their soul and transfering a soul fragment into a living person
> would result in the person having the wizard's power
SO what you are saying it that the Diary was a living person- that is
complete rubbish - a diary is an inanimate object. Even if RIddle has
stored a "memory" of himself in the diary - it still does not make it a
living person.
My statement remains - WE HAVE NO EXAMPLE of a LIVING PERSON having been
a horcrux, or having received powers because of it. DDs statement does
not apply here.
>
>
>>We do - however - have a direct statement from JKR that
>>the SCAR did so. WE have no connection between the SCAR and Horcruxes
>>anywhere in the books.
>
>
> But we don't know when the scar confered those abilities. Did the scar
> do so on creation or moments later when it was made into a horcrux?
No - you are wrong. JKR said that the SCAR tranferred the abilities -
and Harry got the SCAR when the AK hit Harry first - before it rebounded
onto V. WE already know that the AK spell works immediately - so there
was NO time between when V said the AK and when it HIT Harry. It may
have taken time to rebound back - but by then Harry Already had the
scar, already had the powers, and there was NO TIME for words - much
less a complicated piece of magic(as described in the books) like a
Horcrux spell.
>
>
>>ANd Nagini doesnt have a scar because being made a Horcrux doesn't
>>create one.
>
>
> i am not suggesting it creates one. I am suggesting that the newly
> created scar (created by the rebounded AK) was made into a horcrux a
> split 2nd later when the horcrux creating spell hit it.
>
>
>>It makes absolutely no sense for the Horcrux spell to
>>IDENTIFY itself in any way - otherwise - every Horcrux would be easy to
>>spot - just look for a scar. However - NONE of the identified Horcruxes
>>in the books have a scar (Which you correctly point out came from the AK
>>- although it rebounded onto V - it did not rebound onto Harry).
>
>
> i agree with this bit. I do not identify the scar with horcruxes. I am
> speculating that the scar happened, to become a horcrux moments after
> it was created by the rebounding AK.
>
>
>>THat said - we now know directly from JKR that Harry's " V powers" did
>>not come from being a Horcrux.
>
>
> we do not know this. she did not say 'the scar is not a horcrux'
Yes - we do KNOW this - she did NOT say that Harry got his powers from a
Horcrux - she said they came from the scar. SInce the scar clearly
existed BEFORE the Horcrux could have been made - it is clear that JKR
eliminates the possibility of the scar tranfering powers because it is a
Horcrux.
>
>
>>WE also know that V failed in creating
>>his last Horcrux the night of the Massacre.
>
>
> we know that he failed in his intention of using harry's death to
> create his final horcrux. that is ALL we know. We know this because
> harry is still alive.
No - we also know this because DD said it. The simple declarative
sentence used - As we know - he failed - really cannot be argued with.
>
>
>>We also know that V created
>>his last horcrux - Nagini - after that night - so V KNEW he did not
>>create a Horcrux that night.
>
>
> no quite, LV /thought/ he didn't create a horcrux that night. he also
> thought Lily woud flee and leave harry behind given the choice. Yeah,
> he made a few vital mistakes that night.
Again - since it is V who established the number 7 as having importance
- I am sure that he would not have attempted to make Nagini a Horcrux if
there was a possibility that he created one that night. Your speculation
that he started to use the Horcrux spell and accidentally made Harry a
Horcrux doesn't change that - since he - and possibly only he - would
know whether he actually started the spell or not. So - the question is
whether V himself actually tried to use the spell to create a Horcrux of
any kind - much less using Harry (Something he would not have planned to
do). V would even know what the Horcrux WAS supposed to be - since it
wouldn't have been Harry.
THe answer - V made Nagini a Horcrux. That he did so means that he knew
he never had the chance to use the spell - or never did even if he had
the chance.
>
>
>>If he thought it was a possibility - he
>>would have looked into it - since the number 7 is so important to him.
>
>
> Surely you can't expect him to be aware of what is going on when he is
> being painfully ripped from his body?
Surely you cannot expect him to remember the words to a complicated
piece of magic like a Horcrux spell - or even use them - when he is
being painfully ripped from his body.
>
>
>>Subsequent to that night - V has tried on at least two occasions to kill
>>Harry - hardly something he would do if he had made him a Horcrux.
>
>
> as DD says in HBP "[LV] believed that in killing you, he was destroying
> the danger the prophecy had outlined. He believed he was making himself
> invincible." Now concidering that DD said that "...to confide a part
> of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is
> obviously a very risky business." What do you think would be more
> important to LV? being invincible or having harry alive as a horcrux?
At that point - V was already protected by 6 Horcruxes - he really did
not need Harry for the purpose of making himself invincible since he
really only needed ONE Horcrux to keep him alive. What he needed was
Harry dead - because at the time of the Prophecy - V already knew he had
protection via Horcruxes - so he would assume that Harry has the ability
to overcome them as well. SO - the answer is a third possibility - he
needed to kill Harry so that the prophecy could not become true.
Of course - the real problem with the prophecy in my mind is that until
that point - Trelawney was little more than a fraud - a decendant of a
gifted seer, but apparently without the gift herself. Why anyone would
believe anything she said at that point is a real question.
>
>
>>Even more telling. AT the time of the massacre - V knew that Harry would
>>have the power to "vanquish the dark lord". Since he wanted to ELIMINATE
>>that possibility - whenever possible - he certainly would not have
>>chosen Harry to even be a Horcrux - since V made it his need to kill
>>Harry.
>
>
> For god's sake, you are an annoying old record that just keeps on
> spinning the same old tune regardless of what anyone says. As I have
> said before, many times, as LV wanted to kill harry he did not INTEND
> to make harry a horcrux. Therefore IF harry IS a horcrux, then it must
> have happened UNTENTIONALLY. This is backed up by DD when, in CoS, he
> says;
>
> "You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly,
> "because Lord Voldemort -- who is the last remaining ancestor
> of Salazar Slytherin -- can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much
> mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he
> gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure ...."
No - it is not backed up here - since Harry got the ability to speak
parceltongue from the SCAR - as JKR said - and as DD clearly states in
the above quote (Gave you the SCAR - not made you a Horcrux) Remember -
Dumbledore knew about Horcruxes and was against teaching about them in
the time of RIddle and Slughorn so you cannot say that he did not know
about them.
>
> note the "...Not something [LV] intended to do" -even spells that LV
> cast can go awry.
Yes - the AK did not work - and Harry got abilities from the scar it
produced when it hit him - before it rebounded back to Riddle.
>
>
>>V certainly would not have chosen the one person he KNEW he had
>>to eliminate as a Horcrux for one of his soul fragments.
>
>
> No one is saying LV CHOSE for harry to be a horcrux.
>
>
>>So -
>>
>>1 - Harry got his powers from the scar
>
>
> because it's a horcrux
Not a possibilty - the scar was there before RIddle could have done
anything - and since JKR says that he got the powers from the scar -
that would not be true unless the scar and the Horcrux were created at
the same time. SInce THAT cannot be true - even by your account - then
what you are saying is that JKR is deliberately lying about what
actually gave the powers. (SHe did not say that Harry got the powers
when V made his scar a horcrux - she clearly said SCAR.)
>
>
>>2 - V would not have even chosen Harry to be a Horcrux
>
>
> obviously
>
>
>>3 - V clearly wants a total of 7 pieces of soul - his - plus 6 Horcruxes
>>- since it is the ultimate evil number.
>
>
> true
>
>
>>4 - V did not create his last horcrux that night
>
>
> not the one he had intended, no
>
>
>>5 - After that night - V tried to kill Harry at least twice
>
>
> but he would have anyway, regardless of whether harry is a horcrux
> because LV has other horcruxes, he doesn't need harry-horcrux alive as
> much as he needs him dead because of the prophecy saying that only
> harry can kill LV.
>
>
>>6 - V created his last Horcrux (Nagini) after that night - bringing the
>>total to seven - without Harry.
>
>
> Or so, LV thought, until the night Nagini attacked Arthur Weasley and
> he detected harry presence in his head and he had to think again.
>
>
>>Harry is not a Horcrux
>
>
> that's still debatable. your tired old moot points hasn't touched the
> idea, the sooner you realise that the sooner you can put your head to
> realising that there is a real possibility that JKR has planned for
> harry to be a horcrux, or least think he is, in book7.
No - it is your tired and unsupported points that have been blown out of
the water by JKR's statement.
>
> --
> Jane Grey
>
|
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281734 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 02:45 |
|
Jane Grey wrote:
> Brian Tung wrote:
>
>>Jane Grey wrote:
>>
>>>From this statement we can extrapolate that Tom-Riddle-the-Diary also
>>>had LV's powers because it was a horcrux. So a wizard's power resides
>>>in their soul and transfering a soul fragment into a living person
>>>would result in the person having the wizard's powers.
>>
>>I'm not sure that that follows. It doesn't appear that Nagini has
>>any more powers than the usual ones for her species.
>
>
> Nagini hasn't got the mental capacity and the waizarding training
> needed in order to ultilise LV's power.
>
>
>>And the book
>>itself, though clearly magical, did not have the powers themselves; the
>>soul bit did.
>
>
> yes i agree. i speculate that if you put a soul bit in a person then
> the person would have the powers in the soul bit, just as the person
> has the powers in their own soul.
>
>
>>The soul bit relied on the diary for its existence, so
>
>
> well the soul was encased in the diary
>
>
>>in some sense the diary had power over the bit, but it did not itself
>>partake of the bit's powers.
>
>
> But the memories of LV's 16 yr old self that LV had put in the diary
> used the powers (whilst possessing Ginny) to open the chamber so it had
> access to the powers contained in the soulbit because it too was
> contained in the diary.
>
>
>>>>Harry is not a Horcrux
>>>
>>>that's still debatable. your tired old moot points hasn't touched the
>>>idea, the sooner you realise that the sooner you can put your head to
>>>realising that there is a real possibility that JKR has planned for
>>>harry to be a horcrux, or least think he is, in book7.
>>
>>I agree it's possible; I'm just not sure it has much explanatory power.
>
>
> true it only explains how harry got connected to LV
No - it doesn't since JKR - on her website - explains that the
connection came from the SCAR.
>
>
>>The more explanatory power it has--the more disparate puzzles it can
>>resolve--the more convincing it is.
>
>
> Or in a JKR book, the more backstory/clues it fits into...
>
> We know that harry has LV's powers and a mental link with him. Have you
>
> noticed that the only other instances of LV powers being used by some
> other entity other than himself was TheDiary!TomRiddle?(
WHo had no mental connection with V. ANd DIary Tom Riddle was a memory
of Tom RIddle - so he had the powers of Tom RIddle. It would be hard to
say the DIary had the powers - since it did not communicate with V nor
did it speak ParcelTOngue.
also the only
> other instance of a LV mental connection is with Nagini.
- which means the mental connection is not based on being a horcrux
either - since the diary and the ring did not have it.
Now
> concidering that Nagini and TheDiary are horcruxes, and concidering
> that JKR is yet to explain how harry acquired LV's powers and a mental
> connection with him, do you think they could be connected?
But JKR has indeed explained this on her website - saying that Harry got
those powers from the SCAR.
Also note that DD has said that V would not know if any of his Horcruxes
were destroyed. If communication was part of the Horcrux deal - he
would. So - commuication is not transferred by being a Horcrux.
And - with the exception of the Memory of RIddle in the Diary using his
OWN powers - we have no example of being a Horcrux tranfering POWERS of
the soul originator to a living person - much less an object. THe memory
of Tom Riddle in the Diary spoke Parceltongue because it was TOm RIddle
- not because the DIary was a Horcrux. Nagini speaks parceltongue
becasue she IS a snake. THere is no statement from DD saying that the
ring spoke parceltongue, or communicated with V. In fact - there is no
statement that the Diary OR Diary TOm Riddle communicated with V either.
There is no statement ANYWHERE that says that a Horcrux receives powers
because of a soul fragment it contains. THere is no statement anywhere
that the soul fragment itself has any powers it can give either. In fact
- it doesn't make sense for that to be true - since then it would be one
way to identify a horcrux - Oh - you have Vs powers - you must be Vs
Horcrux.
>
> --
> Jane Grey
>
|
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281736 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 02:47 |
|
Bruce E. Haddad wrote:
> "DaveD" <davedn1DELETE [at] THESEblueyonderBITS.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:_vGig.161204$8W1.13322 [at] fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
>
>>Or perhaps Harry thinks that what he's going to do to get rid of the
>>horcrux
>>will also kill himself too but he still does it anyway because it's the
>>right thing to do, not the easy one (just as Dd and Snape did on the
>>tower).
>>
>
>
> To quote JKR: "It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more
> than our abilities."
>
> Maybe he doesn't actually have to die, just CHOOSE to die!
>
> Bruce
>
>
>>But of course, it turns out that it doesn't kill him after all.
>>
>>I hope...
>>
>>DaveD
>>
>>
>
>
>
So what you are saying is that all Harry has to do is choose to kill V -
not actually do it.
Rubbish!
THat eliminates the need for the entire story line. I am sure Harry
wanted V dead from the moment he knew V killed his Parents.
|
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281761 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 10:13 |
|
On 10 Jun 2006 14:33:32 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
Why oh why must detractors make up crud, instead of using the book for
evidence as we do? Voldemort didn't show up to make Harry a horcrux.
Every horcrux caster would release all their Soul Bits unto the world.
JKR said he's not. Every horcrux must contain a scar (seriously, how
can anyone even think this unless their having a bad trip. Time to
change suppliers)
>> It makes absolutely no sense for the Horcrux spell to
>> IDENTIFY itself in any way - otherwise - every Horcrux would be easy to
>> spot - just look for a scar. However - NONE of the identified Horcruxes
>> in the books have a scar (Which you correctly point out came from the AK
>> - although it rebounded onto V - it did not rebound onto Harry).
Seriously. Change dealers. I think you pissed some drug lord off.
You're getting bad merchandise.
>> THat said - we now know directly from JKR that Harry's " V powers" did
>> not come from being a Horcrux.
She never said that.
>> WE also know that V failed in creating
>> his last Horcrux the night of the Massacre.
Poilly want a cracker. Polly want a cracker.
>> We also know that V created
>> his last horcrux - Nagini - after that night - so V KNEW he did not
>> create a Horcrux that night.
We don't know Nagini's a horcrux. V knowing he didn't make a
horcrux,a nd actually not making a horcrux are two dfferent things.
Harry knew he turned into a snake and attacked Arthur. Yet he never
did.
>> If he thought it was a possibility - he
>> would have looked into it - since the number 7 is so important to him.
>
>Surely you can't expect him to be aware of what is going on when he is
>being painfully ripped from his body?
Trauma such as this wipes out immeidate short term memory. I'm sure
he remembers raising his wand, then brief flashes of agnzing paina s
he's ripped out of his body, then beign a spectral being, desparately
trying to stay conscious. He might even remember blasting harry.
maybe, just maybe, he has a vague memory of a green flash like harry
does. But he won't rememebr getting hit by it.
>
>> Subsequent to that night - V has tried on at least two occasions to kill
>> Harry - hardly something he would do if he had made him a Horcrux.
Providing he knew.
>
>> Even more telling. AT the time of the massacre - V knew that Harry would
>> have the power to "vanquish the dark lord". Since he wanted to ELIMINATE
>> that possibility - whenever possible - he certainly would not have
>> chosen Harry to even be a Horcrux - since V made it his need to kill
>> Harry.
>
>For god's sake, you are an annoying old record that just keeps on
>spinning the same old tune regardless of what anyone says. As I have
>said before, many times, as LV wanted to kill harry he did not INTEND
>to make harry a horcrux. Therefore IF harry IS a horcrux, then it must
>have happened UNTENTIONALLY. This is backed up by DD when, in CoS, he
>says;
Yup. Time to fix that broken record. And leave that dead horse
alone.
>"You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly,
>"because Lord Voldemort -- who is the last remaining ancestor
>of Salazar Slytherin -- can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much
>mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he
>gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure ...."
>
>note the "...Not something [LV] intended to do" -even spells that LV
>cast can go awry.
Gee, it's like JK's saying Vodie didn't mean to turn Harry into a
horcrux.
>
>No one is saying LV CHOSE for harry to be a horcrux.
No one with any proof to support their arguements.
>> Harry is not a Horcrux
>
>that's still debatable. your tired old moot points hasn't touched the
>idea, the sooner you realise that the sooner you can put your head to
>realising that there is a real possibility that JKR has planned for
>harry to be a horcrux, or least think he is, in book7.
Making up crud does not count as proof you know. At least Jane and I
supply passages from the book to support our theory. W e don't make
stuff up and claim it's offiical.
|
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281776 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 14:00 |
|
On 10 Jun 2006 15:07:12 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
>yes i agree. i speculate that if you put a soul bit in a person then
>the person would have the powers in the soul bit, just as the person
>has the powers in their own soul.
This might never have happened before. All living horcruxes might
have been simple animals. Not a highly intelligent (relatively
speaking) wizard. Harry might be the first human horcrux ever. A
Humorcrux as it were. As such, he can tap into the Soul Bit's powers.
Maybe even unknowingly communicate with it.
|
|
|
| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281779 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 14:06 |
|
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:16:12 -0700, duh <nosoupforU [at] yoohoo.com> wrote:
>> that's just not true! I don't want harry to commit suicide.
>
>
>If he were doing it to save his friends, it would be the ultimate act of
>love, and the power of that act would destroy Voldemort at the same time.
Espeiclsly if the Soul Bit is still connected to the Master Soul
somehow. Not enough for V to sense his bits, but enough to create a
feedback loop and match whatever happens to the Soul Bit to the Master
Soul. The sue of Harry's blood only strengthens the connection. So
if Harry dies, Voldemort must die. And ironies of ironies, if V were
to succeed in killing Harry, he'd only end up killing himself.
Either must die at the hand of the other. But we know Harry can
vanquish V. So, Harry's the one, and V can only die at the hand of
the other (as in the other party of the prophecy), namely himself. Or,
Harry can only kill himself, and V can only kill himself. and he
does, by connecting himself to Harry, so when Harry goes, he goes.
Remember, V set himself up for ultimate defeat by targeting on of two
possible babies who can destroy him. if eh hadn't, he'd be running
the UK by now. His paranoia over death guaranteed his own demise.
Even with seven Soul Pieces.
|
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281780 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 14:08 |
|
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 21:07:06 GMT, "DaveD"
<davedn1DELETE [at] THESEblueyonderBITS.co.uk> wrote:
>Exactly - it's no ordinary scar, it's a 2way window. But Voldy can't
>actually use it to possess Harry because of Lilly's love in his blood.
>Although since Voldy's "rebirth" I'm not sure how/if that protection will
>continue.
he did posses Harry in the MOM, so that protections gone. Only
Harry's innate love can save him now. Just like in the MOM. His love
of his friends defeated the Little Whirirng Dementors. His love of
Sirius banished V from him. One final act of love will destroy
Voldikins for good. Harry's' at his most powerful when he's feeling
love, because a great love saved him once long ago.
|
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281781 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 14:17 |
|
On 10 Jun 2006 14:51:59 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
>it is strange that harry had to go back to the Dursleys even after LV
>took on the protection in GoF thus rendering it useless in protecting
>harry from LV.
Well then, the touching is not the same as killing. V can touch Harry
know, and posses him, but as long as Lily's love is recharged, he
can't kill Harry. And the final battle will take place after Harry
turns 17 and loses that protection permanently.
|
|
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| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281782 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 14:17 |
|
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:44:44 -0500, "Bruce E. Haddad"
<haddad [at] brucehaddad.net> wrote:
>
>"DaveD" <davedn1DELETE [at] THESEblueyonderBITS.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:_vGig.161204$8W1.13322 [at] fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
>>
>> Or perhaps Harry thinks that what he's going to do to get rid of the
>> horcrux
>> will also kill himself too but he still does it anyway because it's the
>> right thing to do, not the easy one (just as Dd and Snape did on the
>> tower).
>>
>
>To quote JKR: "It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more
>than our abilities."
>
>Maybe he doesn't actually have to die, just CHOOSE to die!
>
>Bruce
>
Maybe a willing sacrifice to save another. Then death would be
undone.
|
|
|
| Re: Harry -V communications not from Horcrux [message #281784 ] |
So, 11 Juni 2006 14:21 |
|
Brian Tung wrote:
> I'm not sure that that follows. It doesn't appear that Nagini has
> any more powers than the usual ones for her species.
What species would that be? Nagini is a gigantic serpent,
(diamond-patterned, but without a rattle) whose jaws can shatter a
man's ribs and whose venom produces wounds that do not close. She is
intelligent enough to report to Lord Voldemort (in parseltongue) that
there is an old Muggle man standing in the corridor listening to
Voldemort's conversation with Wormtail. She apparently remembered that
Voldemort had promised to feed Harry to her. There are clues
suggesting that, if she needs to, she can disapparate, and/or get
through locked doors.
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