HBP: Questions, Comments

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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » HBP: Questions, Comments

HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270205]

So, 28 Mai 2006 06:30

Tom Mapother

I just finished re-reading HBP and have some questions and observations
I would love some feedback on.

1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
(It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).

2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
moment later?

(On the subject of Harry being a Horcrux, I thought of another point. If
he is one, it would mean Dumbledore was most likely wrong about Nagini,
in which case it would make sense that JK would use the oppurtunity to
tell us that it is possible for a living being to contain a Horcrux.)

3. "Harry thought, for one heart stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix
fly joyfully into the blue...."What, if anything, would be the
signifigance of Fawkes flying into Dumbledore's tomb? (It has been
suggested to me that the power of the phoenix would revive Dumbledore,
but I flatly reject that; i think JK is firm that ince someone is dead,
they're dead, no tricks.)

I can't remember my other questions right now, i"ll add on later. For
now, though......

Re: Questions, Comments [message #270210 ]

So, 28 Mai 2006 08:02

Ken

Tom Mapother wrote:
> I just finished re-reading HBP and have some questions and
> observations I would love some feedback on.
>
> 1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make
> it? (It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle
> didn't actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
snip

He did at least a couple of other murders... his father and grand father.

Ken

Re: Questions, Comments [message #270211 ]

So, 28 Mai 2006 08:09

Tom Mapother

> Tom Mapother wrote:
>> I just finished re-reading HBP and have some questions and
>> observations I would love some feedback on.
>>
>> 1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make
>> it? (It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as
Riddle
>> didn't actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
> snip
>
> He did at least a couple of other murders... his father and grand
father.
>
> Ken

Yes, but he didn't even know what a Horcrux was when he did those. The
scene in the Pensieve where Riddle asks Slughorn about Horcruxes begins:
"Harry recognized Voldemort at once......with a jolt, Harry saw that he
was wearing Marvolo's gold-and-black ring; he had already killed his
father..."

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270219 ]

So, 28 Mai 2006 09:57

Toon

On Sun, 28 May 2006 00:30:43 -0400, "Tom Mapother"
<fortommorow [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

>1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
>(It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
>actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).

It is a horcrux. There can be no other explanation.

>2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
>again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
>him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
>moment later?

Lily. And he didn't know he made Harry a Horcrux. He kinda died
before hr completed the spell/something else happened.

>(On the subject of Harry being a Horcrux, I thought of another point. If
>he is one, it would mean Dumbledore was most likely wrong about Nagini,
>in which case it would make sense that JK would use the oppurtunity to
>tell us that it is possible for a living being to contain a Horcrux.)

No. V doesn't know Harry's a horcrux, so he still made Nagini one,
thinking she was his last (if she is one).

>3. "Harry thought, for one heart stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix
>fly joyfully into the blue...."What, if anything, would be the
>signifigance of Fawkes flying into Dumbledore's tomb? (It has been
>suggested to me that the power of the phoenix would revive Dumbledore,
>but I flatly reject that; i think JK is firm that ince someone is dead,
>they're dead, no tricks.)

No significance. DD liked phoenixes. He had one for a pet. It was a
tribute to him. Like playing a person's favorite song or telling
their fav joke at their funeral.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270221 ]

So, 28 Mai 2006 10:18

Tom Mapother

he didn't know he made Harry a Horcrux. He kinda died
> before hr completed the spell/something else happened.
>

> No. V doesn't know Harry's a horcrux, so he still made Nagini one,
> thinking she was his last (if she is one).
>

I don't think its possible to make a horcrux without knowing; Slughorn
said you had to do a spell to encase the torn soul; how can you do this
wthot knowing?

Re: Questions, Comments [message #270226 ]

So, 28 Mai 2006 16:11

Ken

Tom Mapother wrote:
>> Tom Mapother wrote:
>>> I just finished re-reading HBP and have some questions and
>>> observations I would love some feedback on.
>>>
>>> 1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make
>>> it? (It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as
> Riddle
>>> didn't actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
>> snip
>>
>> He did at least a couple of other murders... his father and grand
>> father.
>>
>> Ken
>
> Yes, but he didn't even know what a Horcrux was when he did those. The
> scene in the Pensieve where Riddle asks Slughorn about Horcruxes
> begins: "Harry recognized Voldemort at once......with a jolt, Harry
> saw that he was wearing Marvolo's gold-and-black ring; he had already
> killed his father..."

Good find... but it doesn't change things.

We know that Riddle is capable of murder; there were already 2 or 3. Either
Tom killed someone else which Harry doesn't know about [we know what Harry
know] OR

1. the time limit after a murder to make an Horcrux is long or

2. Tom had already made an Horcrux when he asked Slughorn about them [his
MAIN question was not how to make them but how MANY one could make].

Ken

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270244 ]

So, 28 Mai 2006 21:40

pooter

Toon [toon [at] toon.com] said
> On Sun, 28 May 2006 00:30:43 -0400, "Tom Mapother"
> <fortommorow [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
> >(It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
> >actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
>
> It is a horcrux. There can be no other explanation.
>
>
> >2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
> >again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
> >him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
> >moment later?
>
> Lily. And he didn't know he made Harry a Horcrux. He kinda died
> before hr completed the spell/something else happened.
>

Make a horcrux is not done by accident! And this is the reason Harry is
quite simply *not* a horcrux.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270247 ]

So, 28 Mai 2006 22:10

John VanSickle

Tom Mapother wrote:
> I just finished re-reading HBP and have some questions and observations
> I would love some feedback on.
>
> 1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
> (It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
> actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).

Dumbledore states later that Voldemort used Nagini to kill and old
Muggle man in order to make Horcrux Number Six, so apparently any
action, taken with the intention of causing murder, splits the soul.

> 2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
> again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
> him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
> moment later?

It appears that a Horcrux must be made on purpose, not by accident.

In any event, it is stated that Voldemort visited the Potter household
with the intention of killing Harry, and it is conjectured that Harry's
death was to be used for the sixth and final Horcrux.

Regards,
John

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270249 ]

So, 28 Mai 2006 23:13

Lady Grey

Tom Mapother wrote:
> he didn't know he made Harry a Horcrux. He kinda died
> > before hr completed the spell/something else happened.
> >
>
> > No. V doesn't know Harry's a horcrux, so he still made Nagini one,
> > thinking she was his last (if she is one).
> >
>
> I don't think its possible to make a horcrux without knowing; Slughorn
> said you had to do a spell to encase the torn soul; how can you do this
> wthot knowing?

I don't think Toon was suggesting that LV accidentally did the spell,
more that the spell hit harry accidentally. There are many instances in
the books of misdirected spells.

I think it is possible that LV did the horcrux creating spell in quick
succession after sending out the AK on Harry. LV might have been
expecting to be interrupted by OftP members at any moment and he would
have assumed that harry is not going to survive the AK, but as we know
the AK rebounded. So maybe when the AK hit LV he had just been about to
get the horcrux-spell out and the AK hitting him effected his wand
movements in such a way that the spell got directed towards harry
instead of the object he would have brought with him (or maybe there
was an object at Godric's Hollow he had planned to use). And thus harry
could have become a horcrux accidentally. LV would have assumed the
spell failed when the AK hit him and since he was being painfully
ripped from his body at the time, he wouldn't have noticed that the
horcrux spell left his wand just before the AK hit him and therefore
went on to make Nagini a horcrux.

Oh and if the horcrux creating spell simply used the last torn soul
portion, the portion torn from Lily's murder would have been used to
make harry a horcrux.

--
Jane Grey

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270255 ]

So, 28 Mai 2006 23:54

Lady Grey

pooter wrote:
> Toon [toon [at] toon.com] said
> > On Sun, 28 May 2006 00:30:43 -0400, "Tom Mapother"
> > <fortommorow [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
> > >(It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
> > >actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
> >
> > It is a horcrux. There can be no other explanation.
> >
> >
> > >2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
> > >again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
> > >him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
> > >moment later?
> >
> > Lily. And he didn't know he made Harry a Horcrux. He kinda died
> > before hr completed the spell/something else happened.
> >
>
> Make a horcrux is not done by accident! And this is the reason Harry is
> quite simply *not* a horcrux.

DD said that LV intended to use harry's murder to make his final
horcrux. What if LV had attempted the spell that night, right after
sending out the AK? then if something caused the spell to get directed
at harry instead of the object LV intended to make a horcrux, harry
would be an accidental horcrux!

--
Jane Grey

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270257 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 00:05

Lady Grey

John VanSickle wrote:
> Tom Mapother wrote:
> > I just finished re-reading HBP and have some questions and observations
> > I would love some feedback on.
> >
> > 1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
> > (It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
> > actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
>
> Dumbledore states later that Voldemort used Nagini to kill and old
> Muggle man in order to make Horcrux Number Six, so apparently any
> action, taken with the intention of causing murder, splits the soul.

Well i think that was an error on JKR's part, because in GoF it seems
that LV killed Frank using AK. But when he set the basilisk loose when
he was 16, he did so with the intention of killing muggleborns. Myrtle
the muggle-born died. Therefore he murdered Myrtle using the Basilisk
as a weapon.

> > 2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
> > again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
> > him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
> > moment later?
>
> It appears that a Horcrux must be made on purpose, not by accident.

If LV purposefully cast the horcrux spell but it got accidentally
misdirected onto another object then an accidental horcrux would be
possible.

> In any event, it is stated that Voldemort visited the Potter household
> with the intention of killing Harry, and it is conjectured that Harry's
> death was to be used for the sixth and final Horcrux.

So what if LV did the horcrux creating spell right after the AK? What
if the AK rebounding upon him caused the horcrux spell to get
misdirected at harry?

Bare in mind that harry's being a horcrux would explain the mental
connection and power transferal (noting that the Diary had LV's powers
and Nagini was shown to be mentally linked to LV and that they are both
horcruxes)

--
Jane Grey

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270263 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 01:40

Tom Mapother

>
> Bare in mind that harry's being a horcrux would explain the mental
> connection and power transferal (noting that the Diary had LV's
powers
> and Nagini was shown to be mentally linked to LV and that they are
both
> horcruxes)
>
> --
> Jane Grey

I do think this is an excellent point. If you accept that Lily's death
created a shield or barrier to block the AK, then one would assue that
it works like a sheild charm, but understandably far more powerfull so
as to reflect an AK curse, but a sheild charm does not, as far as we
know, have any effect on the protected once the curse or spell is
rebounded; it simply sends the spell back. Therefore we would need to
explain how Voldemort "transferred some of himself" to Harry.

Two problems arrise if you accept this theory:
Firstly, you would have to explain the scar. If, as i just suggested,
the protection of Lily's dying love acted as a sheild against the curse,
why would there be a scar? This is not difficult to explain that the
curse did indeed hit him - and quite forcfully - and that the protective
love merely stopped it from killing him, leaving the scar.
Secondly, yu would have to assume that either Dumbledore was mistaken in
thinking that the "transfer" of a part of Voldemort happened because of
the curse itself as opposed to his being made a Horcrux, or that
Dumbledore knew the truth and hid it from Harry, which would seem highly
unlikely.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270264 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 02:06

pooter

Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
> pooter wrote:
> > Toon [toon [at] toon.com] said
> > > On Sun, 28 May 2006 00:30:43 -0400, "Tom Mapother"
> > > <fortommorow [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
> > > >(It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
> > > >actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
> > >
> > > It is a horcrux. There can be no other explanation.
> > >
> > >
> > > >2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
> > > >again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
> > > >him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
> > > >moment later?
> > >
> > > Lily. And he didn't know he made Harry a Horcrux. He kinda died
> > > before hr completed the spell/something else happened.
> > >
> >
> > Make a horcrux is not done by accident! And this is the reason Harry is
> > quite simply *not* a horcrux.
>
> DD said that LV intended to use harry's murder to make his final
> horcrux. What if LV had attempted the spell that night, right after
> sending out the AK? then if something caused the spell to get directed
> at harry instead of the object LV intended to make a horcrux, harry
> would be an accidental horcrux!
>

After casting the AK, Voldermort was being destroyed, saved from death
only by the existence of the horcruxed soul fragments, so it is quite
unlikely that he was simultaneously splitting what soul he had left in
his body (none?) and popping it into Harry for later.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270275 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 09:40

dsueme

Tom Mapother wrote:

> 1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?

Frankly, I find this "Horcrux" concept to be incredibly weak. I'm
truly hoping that JKR does to the Horcruxs what she did to Crookshanks
the unusually sentient feline - simply lose it.

Unfortunately, she probably cannot pull that off. She largely built
the miserable HP6 book around the incoherent Horcrux concept. To
simply ignore it in HP7 would be too obvious.

Dave

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270282 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 10:12

Toon

On Sun, 28 May 2006 20:40:19 +0100, pooter <a [at] bff.com> wrote:

>Toon [toon [at] toon.com] said
>> On Sun, 28 May 2006 00:30:43 -0400, "Tom Mapother"
>> <fortommorow [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
>> >(It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
>> >actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
>>
>> It is a horcrux. There can be no other explanation.
>>
>>
>> >2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
>> >again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
>> >him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
>> >moment later?
>>
>> Lily. And he didn't know he made Harry a Horcrux. He kinda died
>> before hr completed the spell/something else happened.
>>
>
>Make a horcrux is not done by accident! And this is the reason Harry is
>quite simply *not* a horcrux.

Well, anything's possible. Though this is highly unlikely.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270283 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 10:14

Toon

On Mon, 29 May 2006 01:06:27 +0100, pooter <a [at] bff.com> wrote:

>Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
>> pooter wrote:
>> > Toon [toon [at] toon.com] said
>> > > On Sun, 28 May 2006 00:30:43 -0400, "Tom Mapother"
>> > > <fortommorow [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
>> > > >(It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
>> > > >actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
>> > >
>> > > It is a horcrux. There can be no other explanation.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
>> > > >again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
>> > > >him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
>> > > >moment later?
>> > >
>> > > Lily. And he didn't know he made Harry a Horcrux. He kinda died
>> > > before hr completed the spell/something else happened.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Make a horcrux is not done by accident! And this is the reason Harry is
>> > quite simply *not* a horcrux.
>>
>> DD said that LV intended to use harry's murder to make his final
>> horcrux. What if LV had attempted the spell that night, right after
>> sending out the AK? then if something caused the spell to get directed
>> at harry instead of the object LV intended to make a horcrux, harry
>> would be an accidental horcrux!
>>
>
>After casting the AK, Voldermort was being destroyed, saved from death
>only by the existence of the horcruxed soul fragments, so it is quite
>unlikely that he was simultaneously splitting what soul he had left in
>his body (none?) and popping it into Harry for later.

Right. But he did have a fresh ripped Soul Bit, that could have been
released as he was "killed", and somehow ended up in Harry. Probably
from a reflexive arm flail. V's wand pointed to Harry instead.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270284 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 10:15

Toon

On Sun, 28 May 2006 20:10:30 GMT, John VanSickle
<evilsnack [at] earthlink.net> wrote:

>Tom Mapother wrote:
>> I just finished re-reading HBP and have some questions and observations
>> I would love some feedback on.
>>
>> 1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
>> (It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
>> actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
>
>Dumbledore states later that Voldemort used Nagini to kill and old
>Muggle man in order to make Horcrux Number Six, so apparently any
>action, taken with the intention of causing murder, splits the soul.
>
>> 2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
>> again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
>> him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
>> moment later?
>
>It appears that a Horcrux must be made on purpose, not by accident.
>
>In any event, it is stated that Voldemort visited the Potter household
>with the intention of killing Harry, and it is conjectured that Harry's
>death was to be used for the sixth and final Horcrux.
>
>Regards,
>John

But that doesn't mean Lily's wasn't used instead, what with Harry not
dying and all.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270285 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 10:17

Toon

On 28 May 2006 15:05:55 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

>Bare in mind that harry's being a horcrux would explain the mental
>connection and power transferal (noting that the Diary had LV's powers
>and Nagini was shown to be mentally linked to LV and that they are both
>horcruxes)

There is no proof Nagini is a horcrux. That's a very educated guess
by DD, well thought out though it is. And JK did say Harry only
thinks he knows what he needs to know, not what is.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270286 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 10:20

Toon

On Sun, 28 May 2006 19:40:56 -0400, "Tom Mapother"
<fortommorow [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>>
>> Bare in mind that harry's being a horcrux would explain the mental
>> connection and power transferal (noting that the Diary had LV's
>powers
>> and Nagini was shown to be mentally linked to LV and that they are
>both
>> horcruxes)
>>
>> --
>> Jane Grey
>
>I do think this is an excellent point. If you accept that Lily's death
>created a shield or barrier to block the AK, then one would assue that
>it works like a sheild charm, but understandably far more powerfull so
>as to reflect an AK curse, but a sheild charm does not, as far as we
>know, have any effect on the protected once the curse or spell is
>rebounded; it simply sends the spell back. Therefore we would need to
>explain how Voldemort "transferred some of himself" to Harry.
>
>Two problems arrise if you accept this theory:
>Firstly, you would have to explain the scar. If, as i just suggested,
>the protection of Lily's dying love acted as a sheild against the curse,
>why would there be a scar? This is not difficult to explain that the
>curse did indeed hit him - and quite forcfully - and that the protective
>love merely stopped it from killing him, leaving the scar.
>Secondly, yu would have to assume that either Dumbledore was mistaken in
>thinking that the "transfer" of a part of Voldemort happened because of
>the curse itself as opposed to his being made a Horcrux, or that
>Dumbledore knew the truth and hid it from Harry, which would seem highly
>unlikely.

well, even a bullet proof vest can cause slight impression when hit
just right in the chest. Red welts at least.

Dd is most likely wrong. he's making guesses, and however well
thought out, is not guaranteed to be right.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270289 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 12:25

Lady Grey

pooter wrote:
> Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
> > pooter wrote:
> > > Toon [toon [at] toon.com] said
> > > > On Sun, 28 May 2006 00:30:43 -0400, "Tom Mapother"
> > > > <fortommorow [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
> > > > >(It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
> > > > >actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
> > > >
> > > > It is a horcrux. There can be no other explanation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
> > > > >again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
> > > > >him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
> > > > >moment later?
> > > >
> > > > Lily. And he didn't know he made Harry a Horcrux. He kinda died
> > > > before hr completed the spell/something else happened.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Make a horcrux is not done by accident! And this is the reason Harry is
> > > quite simply *not* a horcrux.
> >
> > DD said that LV intended to use harry's murder to make his final
> > horcrux. What if LV had attempted the spell that night, right after
> > sending out the AK? then if something caused the spell to get directed
> > at harry instead of the object LV intended to make a horcrux, harry
> > would be an accidental horcrux!
> >
>
> After casting the AK, Voldermort was being destroyed, saved from death

well after the AK rebounded upon LV, he was ripped from his body. But
in that split second before the rebounding spell hit him and his
casting the AK he could have started to cast a horcrux creating
spell...

> only by the existence of the horcruxed soul fragments, so it is quite
> unlikely that he was simultaneously splitting what soul he had left in

the splitting of his soul would have occured automatically upon murder,
it is not something LV does.

> his body (none?) and popping it into Harry for later.

He had newly ripped soul fragments due to murdering Lily and James that
the spell could have used, unknowingly to LV

--
Jane Grey

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270290 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 12:35

Lady Grey

Tom Mapother wrote:
> >
> > Bare in mind that harry's being a horcrux would explain the mental
> > connection and power transferal (noting that the Diary had LV's
> powers
> > and Nagini was shown to be mentally linked to LV and that they are
> both
> > horcruxes)
> >
> > --
> > Jane Grey
>
> I do think this is an excellent point. If you accept that Lily's death
> created a shield or barrier to block the AK, then one would assue that
> it works like a sheild charm, but understandably far more powerfull so
> as to reflect an AK curse, but a sheild charm does not, as far as we
> know, have any effect on the protected once the curse or spell is
> rebounded; it simply sends the spell back. Therefore we would need to

yeah, exactly

> Two problems arrise if you accept this theory:
> Firstly, you would have to explain the scar. If, as i just suggested,
> the protection of Lily's dying love acted as a sheild against the curse,
> why would there be a scar? This is not difficult to explain that the
> curse did indeed hit him - and quite forcfully - and that the protective
> love merely stopped it from killing him, leaving the scar.

AK normally kills, but upon rebounding you can easily imagine it
leaving a cut. There is nothing apparantly strange about this. However
concluding that a /killing/ curse caused power transfer is IMO
illogical when there is a better explanation readily availabe (i.e.
soulbit transfer). I think that the AK rebounding left the scar, but
then the horcrux creating spell made it a horcrux.

> Secondly, yu would have to assume that either Dumbledore was mistaken in
> thinking that the "transfer" of a part of Voldemort happened because of
> the curse itself as opposed to his being made a Horcrux, or that
> Dumbledore knew the truth and hid it from Harry, which would seem highly
> unlikely.

But DD /never/ said that the AK caused the power transfer. He only said
that the power tansfer took place that night. JKR has subtly
misdirected our thinking by never directly addressing the issue of
exactly how harry acquired LV's powers.

--
Jane Grey

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270291 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 12:42

Lady Grey

Toon wrote:
> On 28 May 2006 15:05:55 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >Bare in mind that harry's being a horcrux would explain the mental
> >connection and power transferal (noting that the Diary had LV's powers
> >and Nagini was shown to be mentally linked to LV and that they are both
> >horcruxes)
>
> There is no proof Nagini is a horcrux.

DD seems pretty certain that LV has an unusual amount of control over
Nagini even for a parseltongue

> That's a very educated guess
> by DD, well thought out though it is. And JK did say Harry only
> thinks he knows what he needs to know, not what is.

That just means there are surprises in store for him, we don't know
what those surprises are. Might be finding out he's an accidental
horcrux, that Ron's a Ravenclaw descendant and that Snape's on his
side...

--
Jane Grey

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270304 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 20:46

pooter

Toon [toon [at] toon.com] said
> On Mon, 29 May 2006 01:06:27 +0100, pooter <a [at] bff.com> wrote:
>
> >Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
> >> pooter wrote:
> >> > Toon [toon [at] toon.com] said
> >> > > On Sun, 28 May 2006 00:30:43 -0400, "Tom Mapother"
> >> > > <fortommorow [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > >1. If the diary was indeed a Horcrux, who did Riddle murder to make it?
> >> > > >(It would be a strech to say that it was Moaning Myrtle as Riddle didn't
> >> > > >actually kill her, rather instructed the Basilisk to).
> >> > >
> >> > > It is a horcrux. There can be no other explanation.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >2. If Harry is a Horcrux, (as has been exhaustivley suggested), then,
> >> > > >again, who would have Voldemort have killed to encase his soul-bit in
> >> > > >him? Was it Lily? Would he make a Horcrux only to try to destroy it a
> >> > > >moment later?
> >> > >
> >> > > Lily. And he didn't know he made Harry a Horcrux. He kinda died
> >> > > before hr completed the spell/something else happened.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Make a horcrux is not done by accident! And this is the reason Harry is
> >> > quite simply *not* a horcrux.
> >>
> >> DD said that LV intended to use harry's murder to make his final
> >> horcrux. What if LV had attempted the spell that night, right after
> >> sending out the AK? then if something caused the spell to get directed
> >> at harry instead of the object LV intended to make a horcrux, harry
> >> would be an accidental horcrux!
> >>
> >
> >After casting the AK, Voldermort was being destroyed, saved from death
> >only by the existence of the horcruxed soul fragments, so it is quite
> >unlikely that he was simultaneously splitting what soul he had left in
> >his body (none?) and popping it into Harry for later.
>
> Right. But he did have a fresh ripped Soul Bit, that could have been
> released as he was "killed", and somehow ended up in Harry. Probably
> from a reflexive arm flail. V's wand pointed to Harry instead.
>

After casting the AK, Voldermort was being destroyed, saved from death
only by the existence of the horcruxed soul fragments, so it is quite
unlikely that he was simultaneously splitting what soul he had left in
his body (none?) and popping it into Harry for later.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270305 ]

Mo, 29 Mai 2006 20:56

pooter

Jane Grey [jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk] said
> pooter wrote:

> > After casting the AK, Voldermort was being destroyed, saved from death
>
> well after the AK rebounded upon LV, he was ripped from his body. But
> in that split second before the rebounding spell hit him and his
> casting the AK he could have started to cast a horcrux creating
> spell...
>
> > only by the existence of the horcruxed soul fragments, so it is quite
> > unlikely that he was simultaneously splitting what soul he had left in
>
> the splitting of his soul would have occured automatically upon murder,
> it is not something LV does.

No, you must need the murder *and* the magic to create the horcrux to
complete the splitting of the soul because if that was not the case
every murderer would end up looking snakey with red eyes.

> > his body (none?) and popping it into Harry for later.
>
> He had newly ripped soul fragments due to murdering Lily and James that
> the spell could have used, unknowingly to LV

In a whoops-a-daisy kind of fashion?

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270349 ]

Di, 30 Mai 2006 09:40

Toon

On Mon, 29 May 2006 19:46:07 +0100, pooter <a [at] bff.com> wrote:

>>
>> Right. But he did have a fresh ripped Soul Bit, that could have been
>> released as he was "killed", and somehow ended up in Harry. Probably
>> from a reflexive arm flail. V's wand pointed to Harry instead.
>>
>
>After casting the AK, Voldermort was being destroyed, saved from death
>only by the existence of the horcruxed soul fragments, so it is quite
>unlikely that he was simultaneously splitting what soul he had left in
>his body (none?) and popping it into Harry for later.

Right. He could not do that, because Harry didn't die. Good thing he
was fresh off his Lily killing. Well, not so much good as convenient
for him.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270350 ]

Di, 30 Mai 2006 09:41

Toon

On 29 May 2006 03:42:21 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

>Toon wrote:
>> On 28 May 2006 15:05:55 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Bare in mind that harry's being a horcrux would explain the mental
>> >connection and power transferal (noting that the Diary had LV's powers
>> >and Nagini was shown to be mentally linked to LV and that they are both
>> >horcruxes)
>>
>> There is no proof Nagini is a horcrux.
>
>DD seems pretty certain that LV has an unusual amount of control over
>Nagini even for a parseltongue
>

Yes, but there's any number of reasons, including reaching a whole new
level of communication. Maybe he imperiused her.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270351 ]

Di, 30 Mai 2006 09:42

Toon

On Mon, 29 May 2006 19:56:28 +0100, pooter <a [at] bff.com> wrote:

>No, you must need the murder *and* the magic to create the horcrux to
>complete the splitting of the soul because if that was not the case
>every murderer would end up looking snakey with red eyes.

No, only if they remove it. The soul probably regenrates after a
while.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270371 ]

Di, 30 Mai 2006 18:56

Onyx Alpha

I think there might be a point about the AK you guys might be missing:
No one know exactly how it works, for all we know the AK is what
forged the links between Harry and LV but normally the person AK is
cast on dies so we won't know.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270374 ]

Di, 30 Mai 2006 21:50

David

Jane Grey wrote:

> DD said that LV intended to use harry's murder to make his final
> horcrux. What if LV had attempted the spell that night, right after
> sending out the AK? then if something caused the spell to get directed
> at harry instead of the object LV intended to make a horcrux, harry
> would be an accidental horcrux!

Sorry, but to me, any "_______ is a horcrux" theory that starts with
the words "what if" is meaningless. There is nothing in canon that
shows in any way that Jo has determined that Harry is a horcrux and
without real evidence from the books, I ain't gonna buy it.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270377 ]

Di, 30 Mai 2006 22:47

Brian

David wrote:
> Sorry, but to me, any "_______ is a horcrux" theory that starts with
> the words "what if" is meaningless. There is nothing in canon that
> shows in any way that Jo has determined that Harry is a horcrux and
> without real evidence from the books, I ain't gonna buy it.

I'm with you. Such theories are generally plausible, in large part
because they are underspecified. There seem to us to be many different
ways for the story to proceed, but Rowling has spoken to the effect that
she sees only one way, that if someone "figured it out," so to speak, it
would be too late for her to change the ending.

That means that whatever outcome she has in mind fits in, in multiple
ways. Any theory, to be compelling, must therefore explain not a single
mystery, or two, but many of them, and consistently, too. I haven't
seen one yet (and I don't have one myself), though I do find some of
them pretty creative.

--
Brian Tung <brian [at] isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270390 ]

Mi, 31 Mai 2006 01:19

Tom Mapother

>> > Bare in mind that harry's being a horcrux would explain the mental
>> > connection and power transferal (noting that the Diary had LV's
>> powers
>> > and Nagini was shown to be mentally linked to LV and that they are
>> both
>> > horcruxes)
>> >
>> > --
>> > Jane Grey
>>
>> I do think this is an excellent point. If you accept that Lily's
death

Also, it might be interesting that DD said that Voldemort would want
something of Gryfindor's to use as a horcrux, but he was sure that the
sword was the only thing.
Maybe there was one other object that DD forgot about.
Maybe Voldemort found his Gryfindor heirloom after all, in the form of
the last decendant of Gryfindor, Harry.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270398 ]

Mi, 31 Mai 2006 06:58

Toon

On 30 May 2006 09:56:38 -0700, "Onyx Alpha" <Onyx_Alpha777 [at] Yahoo.com>
wrote:

> I think there might be a point about the AK you guys might be missing:
> No one know exactly how it works, for all we know the AK is what
>forged the links between Harry and LV but normally the person AK is
>cast on dies so we won't know.

That makes no sense. if you die from it, how can there be a link?
There's no point to a link to a dead person.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270409 ]

Mi, 31 Mai 2006 13:20

mewthree

Toon wrote:
> On 30 May 2006 09:56:38 -0700, "Onyx Alpha" <Onyx_Alpha777 [at] Yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think there might be a point about the AK you guys might be missing:
>> No one know exactly how it works, for all we know the AK is what
>> forged the links between Harry and LV but normally the person AK is
>> cast on dies so we won't know.
>
> That makes no sense. if you die from it, how can there be a link?
> There's no point to a link to a dead person.

i can see where this is going. with the AK there is a link made until
the victim is dead. if there is no death then the link can't be broken
until the victim is dead. not even the caster can break it as the spell
was not designed to fail. lilly must have found some old magic to block it.

Re: HBP: Questions, Comments [message #270449 ]

Do, 01 Juni 2006 07:00

Toon

On Wed, 31 May 2006 11:20:32 GMT, paul taylor <paul [at] mewthree.plus.com>
wrote:

>Toon wrote:
>> On 30 May 2006 09:56:38 -0700, "Onyx Alpha" <Onyx_Alpha777 [at] Yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think there might be a point about the AK you guys might be missing:
>>> No one know exactly how it works, for all we know the AK is what
>>> forged the links between Harry and LV but normally the person AK is
>>> cast on dies so we won't know.
>>
>> That makes no sense. if you die from it, how can there be a link?
>> There's no point to a link to a dead person.
>
>i can see where this is going. with the AK there is a link made until
>the victim is dead. if there is no death then the link can't be broken
>until the victim is dead. not even the caster can break it as the spell

But the death is instantaneous.

>was not designed to fail. lilly must have found some old magic to block it.

But she didn't. She did nothing before hand to prepare. It was mere
luck she did something that never happened before. The ultimate
fluke.

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