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Music / Musik » alt.fan.frank-zappa » Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe'
| Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #265532] |
Mi, 10 Mai 2006 21:17 |
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Roman's site suggests that Aynsley Dunbar plays on Stinkfoot and Uncle
Remus. My guess would have been that he played on the basic tracks of
Cosmik Debris, which we know was written by 1972 when Dunbar was still
working with Zappa. That would mean that all the sessions May 26 - June
1 1973 were overdub sessions working on pre-recorded basic tracks.
Does anyone have any more information? Are there interviews where this
is clarified?
--
Chris West
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #265535 ] |
Mi, 10 Mai 2006 22:32 |
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In article <ksFtQjJixjYEFw8f [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Roman's site suggests that Aynsley Dunbar plays on Stinkfoot and Uncle
> Remus. My guess would have been that he played on the basic tracks of
> Cosmik Debris, which we know was written by 1972 when Dunbar was still
> working with Zappa. That would mean that all the sessions May 26 - June
> 1 1973 were overdub sessions working on pre-recorded basic tracks.
Then why was Ralph Humphrey paid for six sessions?
> Does anyone have any more information?
Not information but speculation. It's been much discussed here over the
years.
In particular, see
< http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.frank-zappa/browse_fr m/thread/b8d
5c6ba25aacf0c/93e5a038e0476317> for Joe Travers' analysis.
> Are there interviews where this is clarified?
I wish!
--Charles
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #265536 ] |
Mi, 10 Mai 2006 22:51 |
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In article <ulrich-653C41.13342510052006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
<ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
>In article <ksFtQjJixjYEFw8f [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Roman's site suggests that Aynsley Dunbar plays on Stinkfoot and Uncle
>> Remus. My guess would have been that he played on the basic tracks of
>> Cosmik Debris, which we know was written by 1972 when Dunbar was still
>> working with Zappa. That would mean that all the sessions May 26 - June
>> 1 1973 were overdub sessions working on pre-recorded basic tracks.
>
>Then why was Ralph Humphrey paid for six sessions?
Because he was overdubbing the other tracks? Maybe he even added to
Cosmik Debris as well. It would be very unusual to *start* recording
Cosmik Debris with Zappa and Ian Underwood...
And did he play on Wonderful Wino? That's one of the tracks listed for
those sessions that he got paid for.
>> Does anyone have any more information?
>
>Not information but speculation. It's been much discussed here over the
>years.
>
>In particular, see
>< http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.frank-zappa/browse_fr m/thread/b8d
>5c6ba25aacf0c/93e5a038e0476317> for Joe Travers' analysis.
Great link, thanks very much. He obviously knows more about drums than
me!
--
Chris West
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #265537 ] |
Mi, 10 Mai 2006 23:47 |
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In article <0qMJBBLGJlYEFweC [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ulrich-653C41.13342510052006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
> <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
> >In article <ksFtQjJixjYEFw8f [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
> > Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Roman's site suggests that Aynsley Dunbar plays on Stinkfoot and Uncle
> >> Remus. My guess would have been that he played on the basic tracks of
> >> Cosmik Debris, which we know was written by 1972 when Dunbar was still
> >> working with Zappa. That would mean that all the sessions May 26 - June
> >> 1 1973 were overdub sessions working on pre-recorded basic tracks.
> >
> >Then why was Ralph Humphrey paid for six sessions?
>
> Because he was overdubbing the other tracks? Maybe he even added to
> Cosmik Debris as well.
Or maybe they tried it both ways--with the old Dunbar/Dmochowski tracks
and with new Humphrey/Fowler tracks. Then the question becomes one of
which version was used on the record. For that we may have to rely on
expert ears, such as Joe's.
--Charles
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #265539 ] |
Do, 11 Mai 2006 02:32 |
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Chris West wrote:
>>
>> In particular, see
>> < http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.frank-zappa/browse_fr m/thread/b8d
>> 5c6ba25aacf0c/93e5a038e0476317> for Joe Travers' analysis.
>
> Great link, thanks very much. He obviously knows more about drums than
> me!
And Joe knows how to BRING THE ROCK.
dave
--
A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read.
-Mark Twain
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #265541 ] |
Do, 11 Mai 2006 04:17 |
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Charles Ulrich wrote:
> Or maybe they tried it both ways--with the old Dunbar/Dmochowski tracks
> and with new Humphrey/Fowler tracks. Then the question becomes one of
> which version was used on the record. For that we may have to rely on
> expert ears, such as Joe's.
This thread makes me realize that I haven't listened much at all to
Apostrophe, but, putting it on tonight, my vote goes to Humphrey on
"Cosmik Debris" due to similarities in drum sounds and playing style
with his playing on Overnite Sensation.
Dunbar had left at least a few months before the song was premiered
live, too.
Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #265547 ] |
Do, 11 Mai 2006 05:59 |
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>This thread makes me realize that I haven't listened much at all to
>Apostrophe, but, putting it on tonight, my vote goes to Humphrey on
>"Cosmik Debris" due to similarities in drum sounds and playing style
>with his playing on Overnite Sensation.
I've always thought it was obvious that "Cosmik Debris" was a leftover
from the _Over-Nite Sensation_ sessions; complete with the Ikettes on
backing vocals.
Your pal,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #265553 ] |
Do, 11 Mai 2006 08:32 |
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In article <1147319963.474939.157920 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew <biffyshrew [at] aol.com> writes
>>This thread makes me realize that I haven't listened much at all to
>>Apostrophe, but, putting it on tonight, my vote goes to Humphrey on
>>"Cosmik Debris" due to similarities in drum sounds and playing style
>>with his playing on Overnite Sensation.
>
>I've always thought it was obvious that "Cosmik Debris" was a leftover
>from the _Over-Nite Sensation_ sessions; complete with the Ikettes on
>backing vocals.
There's no doubt that Cosmik Debris was finished during the Overnite
Sensation sessions. But some of those sessions were using basic tracks
recorded with Dunbar, like Wonderful Wino, for instance. My theory is
that Cosmik Debris is one of those.
Cosmik Debris was such a frequently played song that it seems strange
that it wasn't included on Overnite Sensation. It could be that it was
left off because it wasn't entirely recorded by the 1973 Mothers, and so
it belonged on the solo album.
--
Chris West
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #265554 ] |
Do, 11 Mai 2006 09:02 |
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"Chris West" <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1QRpfGBxptYEFwd$ [at] zadok.demon.co.uk...
> In article <1147319963.474939.157920 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Biffy
> the Elephant Shrew <biffyshrew [at] aol.com> writes
>>>This thread makes me realize that I haven't listened much at all to
>>>Apostrophe, but, putting it on tonight, my vote goes to Humphrey on
>>>"Cosmik Debris" due to similarities in drum sounds and playing style
>>>with his playing on Overnite Sensation.
>>
>>I've always thought it was obvious that "Cosmik Debris" was a leftover
>>from the _Over-Nite Sensation_ sessions; complete with the Ikettes on
>>backing vocals.
>
> There's no doubt that Cosmik Debris was finished during the Overnite
> Sensation sessions. But some of those sessions were using basic tracks
> recorded with Dunbar, like Wonderful Wino, for instance. My theory is that
> Cosmik Debris is one of those.
>
> Cosmik Debris was such a frequently played song that it seems strange that
> it wasn't included on Overnite Sensation. It could be that it was left off
> because it wasn't entirely recorded by the 1973 Mothers, and so it
> belonged on the solo album.
Weren't they all solo albums? Ask the FZT.
> --
> Chris West
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #270574 ] |
Do, 18 Mai 2006 19:01 |
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In article <ksFtQjJixjYEFw8f [at] zadok.demon.co.uk>,
Chris West <chris [at] zadok.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Roman's site suggests that Aynsley Dunbar plays on Stinkfoot and Uncle
> Remus. My guess would have been that he played on the basic tracks of
> Cosmik Debris, which we know was written by 1972 when Dunbar was still
> working with Zappa. That would mean that all the sessions May 26 - June
> 1 1973 were overdub sessions working on pre-recorded basic tracks.
>
> Are there interviews where this is clarified?
Yes! I have recently been able to read interviews with Tom Fowler, Ralph
Humphrey, and John Guerin.
Tom Fowler said that he played on all of side one, and also on
Stink-Foot. And he said that he never played with Aynsley, only with
Ralph, Chester, and Terry.
Ralph Humphrey said that he played on all of side one, specifically
mentioning Cosmik Debris. And he said that he didn't play on any of side
two, specifically mentioning Stink-Foot.
John Guerin said that he played on "the first track on one of the
sides". Since Ralph clearly played on Don't Eat The Yellow Snow, John
must have been referring to Excentrifugal Forz.
--Charles
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #270575 ] |
Do, 18 Mai 2006 19:13 |
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Charles Ulrich wrote:
>
> Tom Fowler said that he played on all of side one, and also on
> Stink-Foot. And he said that he never played with Aynsley, only with
> Ralph, Chester, and Terry.
Did he mention if "Stink-Foot" was an over-dub session or, if not, who
was the drummer then?
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #270577 ] |
Do, 18 Mai 2006 20:00 |
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Charles Ulrich wrote:
> John Guerin said that he played on "the first track on one of the
> sides". Since Ralph clearly played on Don't Eat The Yellow Snow, John
> must have been referring to Excentrifugal Forz.
IIRC, I read an interview with John Guerin where he mentioned FZ giving
him a gold record. Guerin told FZ that he didn't know that he'd played
on the album, and FZ replied that he had taken some old drum tracks and
written a song to go with them. I assumed he was talking about
Excentrifugal Forz.
Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #270579 ] |
Do, 18 Mai 2006 21:01 |
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In article <AY1bg.9856$%Q3.4447 [at] news.ono.com>,
Román García <donlope [at] ono.com> wrote:
> Charles Ulrich wrote:
> >
> > Tom Fowler said that he played on all of side one, and also on
> > Stink-Foot. And he said that he never played with Aynsley, only with
> > Ralph, Chester, and Terry.
>
> Did he mention if "Stink-Foot" was an over-dub session or, if not, who
> was the drummer then?
Tom didn't say who was the drummer, and he didn't mention anything about
it being an overdub session.
I wonder if he was mistaken about playing on the studio recording of
Stinkfoot. He certainly performed it live dozens of times.
Ralph said he didn't play on Stinkfoot. Chester and Terry aren't
credited on the album. And since Tom's statement that he never played
with Aynsley was made in the context of discussing Stinkfoot, you'd
think he would have mentioned if he had done overdubs on previously
existing drum tracks.
Also, there has to be somewhere on the album where FZ is playing bass,
and Stinkfoot was the consensus choice.
--Charles
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #270596 ] |
Fr, 19 Mai 2006 13:22 |
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In article <ulrich-57DFD8.12032318052006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
<ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
>In article <AY1bg.9856$%Q3.4447 [at] news.ono.com>,
> Román García <donlope [at] ono.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ulrich wrote:
>> >
>> > Tom Fowler said that he played on all of side one, and also on
>> > Stink-Foot. And he said that he never played with Aynsley, only with
>> > Ralph, Chester, and Terry.
>>
>> Did he mention if "Stink-Foot" was an over-dub session or, if not, who
>> was the drummer then?
>
>Tom didn't say who was the drummer, and he didn't mention anything about
>it being an overdub session.
>
>I wonder if he was mistaken about playing on the studio recording of
>Stinkfoot. He certainly performed it live dozens of times.
>
>Ralph said he didn't play on Stinkfoot. Chester and Terry aren't
>credited on the album. And since Tom's statement that he never played
>with Aynsley was made in the context of discussing Stinkfoot, you'd
>think he would have mentioned if he had done overdubs on previously
>existing drum tracks.
>
>Also, there has to be somewhere on the album where FZ is playing bass,
>and Stinkfoot was the consensus choice.
Thanks for clearing this up, Charles. Who's playing bass on
Excentrifugal Forz then?
--
Chris West
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #270597 ] |
Fr, 19 Mai 2006 14:35 |
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Chris West wrote:
> In article <ulrich-57DFD8.12032318052006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
> <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
>>>
>> Also, there has to be somewhere on the album where FZ is playing bass,
>> and Stinkfoot was the consensus choice.
>
> Thanks for clearing this up, Charles. Who's playing bass on
> Excentrifugal Forz then?
I think it's FZ too.
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #270602 ] |
Fr, 19 Mai 2006 18:32 |
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In article <C_ibg.25356$un5.8413 [at] news.ono.com>,
Román García <donlope [at] ono.com> wrote:
> Chris West wrote:
> > In article <ulrich-57DFD8.12032318052006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
> > <ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
> >>>
> >> Also, there has to be somewhere on the album where FZ is playing bass,
> >> and Stinkfoot was the consensus choice.
> >
> > Thanks for clearing this up, Charles. Who's playing bass on
> > Excentrifugal Forz then?
>
> I think it's FZ too.
Oops. I was remembering suggestions that there was no bass on
Excentrifugal Forz. But, yes, the consensus was that FZ played bass on
EF. So scratch that particular argument against Tom Fowler playing on
Stinkfoot.
--Charles
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| Re: Aynsley Dunbar on Apostrophe' [message #270664 ] |
Di, 23 Mai 2006 23:31 |
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Charles Ulrich wrote:
> In article <C_ibg.25356$un5.8413 [at] news.ono.com>,
> Román García <donlope [at] ono.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Chris West wrote:
>>
>>>In article <ulrich-57DFD8.12032318052006 [at] shawnews>, Charles Ulrich
>>><ulrich [at] sfu.ca> writes
>>>
>>>>Also, there has to be somewhere on the album where FZ is playing bass,
>>>>and Stinkfoot was the consensus choice.
>>>
>>>Thanks for clearing this up, Charles. Who's playing bass on
>>>Excentrifugal Forz then?
>>
>>I think it's FZ too.
>
>
> Oops. I was remembering suggestions that there was no bass on
> Excentrifugal Forz. But, yes, the consensus was that FZ played bass on
> EF. So scratch that particular argument against Tom Fowler playing on
> Stinkfoot.
Just wanted to throw this in -- once upon a time I pointed out to Roman
that you can clearly hear FZ playing the little electric bouzouki on EF,
as he did on "Canard du Jour".. Roman remarked to me something along the
lines of "that might throw into doubt the previous assumption that Sugar
Cane Harris played violin on EF". Maybe Ponty *did* play violin on EF?
Obviously, he played on "Canard du Jour", the (as far as I'm aware) only
other instance of FZ playing the electric bouzouki. And one other little
thing that leads me to wonder about that is (what I've always assumed to
be) the phased violin sound at the beginning of the track, which sounds
very much like the effect that Ponty used on "Canard du Jour" and on
tour. Not to say that Harris *doesn't* play on it at all (since Guerin
plays drums on that track, it's assumed to have come from the Hot Rats
sessions, where Harris was present, so I wouldn't totally discount him).
But.. if the violin at the beginning of the track *MIGHT* be Ponty (and
I think it at least *COULD* be), where might Harris appear on the track?
--
Milhouse Guidry of the mWo
With all the style and finesse of a purchase of armaments.
King of alt.pro-wrestling.dx
mWo. It's not just the coolest, it's fa lyfe, so survey says
whether you like it or don't like it, never E-e-e-ver tell
me he did *not* just SMELL what mWo 3:16 reeks of.
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