Snape and V's orders...

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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Snape and V's orders...

Snape and V's orders... [message #265197]

Sa, 13 Mai 2006 08:08

Balthazar

Snape says to the DE basically leave Potter alone he is for the Dark Lord to
deal with.
OK, so if Snape is being truthful V says not to kill or harm Harry that
he'll deal with him
himself. Why not then just grab Harry outside on the grounds and _take_ him
to V so he can
do whatever he has planned for him? Seems kinda foolish of Snape to just
shout a few
insults and curses at him then just flee. Weak writing on JKR's part or did
Snape want to leave
Harry behind to fight another day?

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #265224 ]

Sa, 13 Mai 2006 19:40

Magic_mom

The Source wrote:
> Snape says to the DE basically leave Potter alone he is for the Dark Lord to
> deal with.
> OK, so if Snape is being truthful V says not to kill or harm Harry that
> he'll deal with him
> himself. Why not then just grab Harry outside on the grounds and _take_ him
> to V so he can
> do whatever he has planned for him? Seems kinda foolish of Snape to just
> shout a few
> insults and curses at him then just flee. Weak writing on JKR's part or did
> Snape want to leave
> Harry behind to fight another day?

It is either because Snape really did not want Harry to be caught by or
taken to Voldy.. Or Snape did not want to risk getting close enough to
Harry and possibly allow Harry the chance to harm him, (Snape). By
taunting him and ordering the other DE's to leave him for Voldemort, he
is, if he is still on the *good side*, allowing himself to still be
seen as a DE himself and to finish whatever Dumbledore set up for him.
It's not *that* weak at this point, but much of the book is otherwise.

M_m

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #265230 ]

So, 14 Mai 2006 05:44

Ken

The Source wrote:
> Snape says to the DE basically leave Potter alone he is for the Dark
> Lord to deal with.
> OK, so if Snape is being truthful V says not to kill or harm Harry
> that he'll deal with him
> himself. Why not then just grab Harry outside on the grounds and
> _take_ him to V so he can
> do whatever he has planned for him? Seems kinda foolish of Snape to
> just shout a few
> insults and curses at him then just flee. Weak writing on JKR's part
> or did Snape want to leave
> Harry behind to fight another day?

I have always taken this to be more evidence that Snape is not evil or V
side.

Ken

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #265240 ]

So, 14 Mai 2006 09:29

xu.chiang

I think that's a way to protect Harry from other DE, and i believe
Snape takes "good side", he never really did someting to harm
Harry...btw, i think the death of Dum. is a trick.

:)

Jess

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #265242 ]

So, 14 Mai 2006 09:41

Toon

On Fri, 12 May 2006 23:08:31 -0700, "The Source" <charmed [at] TNT.tv>
wrote:

>Snape says to the DE basically leave Potter alone he is for the Dark Lord to
>deal with.
>OK, so if Snape is being truthful V says not to kill or harm Harry that
>he'll deal with him
>himself. Why not then just grab Harry outside on the grounds and _take_ him
>to V so he can
>do whatever he has planned for him? Seems kinda foolish of Snape to just
>shout a few
>insults and curses at him then just flee. Weak writing on JKR's part or did
>Snape want to leave
>Harry behind to fight another day?
>
>
>
>

Of course he wanted Harry left behind, so he could finish his training
and destroy the horcruxes. otherwise, Dd's sacrifice would have been
in vain.

Course, V could have wanted to capture and kill Harry himself, not
have him handed over on a silver platter. And Snape'd have to side
along Apparate with a struggling Harry, which is probably a lousy
idea.

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #265255 ]

So, 14 Mai 2006 18:03

karnak17

Here in Minnesota wrote:
> The Source wrote:
> > Snape says to the DE basically leave Potter alone he is for the Dark
> > Lord to deal with.
> > OK, so if Snape is being truthful V says not to kill or harm Harry
> > that he'll deal with him
> > himself. Why not then just grab Harry outside on the grounds and
> > _take_ him to V so he can
> > do whatever he has planned for him? Seems kinda foolish of Snape to
> > just shout a few
> > insults and curses at him then just flee. Weak writing on JKR's part
> > or did Snape want to leave
> > Harry behind to fight another day?
>
> I have always taken this to be more evidence that Snape is not evil or V
> side.
>
> Ken

I've always taken this as evidence of exactly what Snape said. That
the DE's were under certain orders about Harry, and killing, capturing,
or torturing him was obviously not part of Lord V's plan at that point.
Which side Snape is on is not, for the moment, relevant. If he was
evil, he wouldn't disobey LV. If he was good, he had no reason to
either.

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #265257 ]

So, 14 Mai 2006 19:15

Ken

Karnak17 wrote:
> Here in Minnesota wrote:
>> The Source wrote:
>>> Snape says to the DE basically leave Potter alone he is for the Dark
>>> Lord to deal with.
>>> OK, so if Snape is being truthful V says not to kill or harm Harry
>>> that he'll deal with him
>>> himself. Why not then just grab Harry outside on the grounds and
>>> _take_ him to V so he can
>>> do whatever he has planned for him? Seems kinda foolish of Snape to
>>> just shout a few
>>> insults and curses at him then just flee. Weak writing on JKR's part
>>> or did Snape want to leave
>>> Harry behind to fight another day?
>>
>> I have always taken this to be more evidence that Snape is not evil
>> or V side.
>>
>> Ken
>
> I've always taken this as evidence of exactly what Snape said. That
> the DE's were under certain orders about Harry, and killing,
> capturing, or torturing him was obviously not part of Lord V's plan
> at that point. Which side Snape is on is not, for the moment,
> relevant. If he was evil, he wouldn't disobey LV. If he was good,
> he had no reason to either.

If he was evil... he wouldn't have prevented the other DE from harming
Harry... he would have nothing to lose... if the other DE were successful in
killing or capturing Harry... he would return as a hero, he killed DD which
allowed the others to capture Harry. If they failed... he would still be the
faithful servant... he killed DD and didn't disobey the dark lord and try to
kill Harry [making him the only one who obeyed LV].

I still see Snape's actions with Harry after DD death as *strong* evidence
of him being good.

Ken

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #265258 ]

So, 14 Mai 2006 20:38

karnak17

Here in Minnesota wrote:
> Karnak17 wrote:
> > Here in Minnesota wrote:
> >> The Source wrote:
> >>> Snape says to the DE basically leave Potter alone he is for the Dark
> >>> Lord to deal with.
> >>> OK, so if Snape is being truthful V says not to kill or harm Harry
> >>> that he'll deal with him himself. Why not then just grab Harry outside on the
> >>> grounds and _take_ him to V so he can do whatever he has planned for him?
> >>> Seems kinda foolish of Snape to
> >>> just shout a few
> >>> insults and curses at him then just flee. Weak writing on JKR's part
> >>> or did Snape want to leave Harry behind to fight another day?
> >>
> >> I have always taken this to be more evidence that Snape is not evil
> >> or V side.
> >>
> >> Ken
> >
> > I've always taken this as evidence of exactly what Snape said. That
> > the DE's were under certain orders about Harry, and killing,
> > capturing, or torturing him was obviously not part of Lord V's plan
> > at that point. Which side Snape is on is not, for the moment,
> > relevant. If he was evil, he wouldn't disobey LV. If he was good,
> > he had no reason to either.
>
> If he was evil... he wouldn't have prevented the other DE from harming
> Harry... he would have nothing to lose... if the other DE were successful in
> killing or capturing Harry... he would return as a hero, he killed DD which
> allowed the others to capture Harry. If they failed... he would still be the
> faithful servant... he killed DD and didn't disobey the dark lord and try to
> kill Harry [making him the only one who obeyed LV].

Firstly, if Snape permits OTHER DE's to kill Harry, against Lord V's
orders, then that counts as Snape disobeying Lord V's orders. After
all, he was standing right there. He had absolutely no excuse not to
stop them.

Secondly, if Lord V needs Harry alive for some evil plan that he has,
and Snape knows this, then Evil-Snape would WANT Harry alive, so that
the evil plan would succeed.

There is no way that Evil-Snape would have allowed Harry to be hurt
against Lord V's orders. Unless he really, really likes being
Crucioed.

> I still see Snape's actions with Harry after DD death as *strong* evidence
> of him being good.

Leaving Harry alive is no evidence at all, one way or the other. Lord
V wanted it that way, so that is how it was.

Some of Snape's other actions are more consistent with good Snape than
bad Snape, imo, such as the "lecture" about keeping his mouth shut.

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #265260 ]

So, 14 Mai 2006 22:11

wadkin2000

Karnak17 wrote:

> Firstly, if Snape permits OTHER DE's to kill Harry, against Lord V's
> orders, then that counts as Snape disobeying Lord V's orders. After
> all, he was standing right there. He had absolutely no excuse not to
> stop them.
>
> Secondly, if Lord V needs Harry alive for some evil plan that he has,
> and Snape knows this, then Evil-Snape would WANT Harry alive, so that
> the evil plan would succeed.
>
> There is no way that Evil-Snape would have allowed Harry to be hurt
> against Lord V's orders. Unless he really, really likes being
> Crucioed.
>
> > I still see Snape's actions with Harry after DD death as *strong* evidence
> > of him being good.
>
> Leaving Harry alive is no evidence at all, one way or the other. Lord
> V wanted it that way, so that is how it was.
>
> Some of Snape's other actions are more consistent with good Snape than
> bad Snape, imo, such as the "lecture" about keeping his mouth shut.

I agree with much of what you said. Snape's actions during that scene
could support his alignment with either faction. If he is on
Voldemort's side, his decision not to do anything with Harry is
consistent with V's mantra for the death eaters to do nothing and leave
Harry for V himself. Snape wouldn't risk doing anything contrary to his
master's wishes. (Barty Crouch Jr.'s actions notwithstanding, since he
was obviously not dealing with a full deck).

If Snape is on Dumbledore's side, then, IMO, his actions during that
scene support that allegiance as well. IMO, he reacted as best he could
to an intolerable situation without blowing his cover.

Severus Snape is unequivocally between a rock and a hard place now, and
IMO, will play a pivotal role in saving Harry in book seven but
ultimately will not survive the series.

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #265303 ]

Mo, 15 Mai 2006 09:57

Toon

On Sun, 14 May 2006 12:15:14 -0500, "Here in Minnesota"
<neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

>Karnak17 wrote:
>> Here in Minnesota wrote:
>>> The Source wrote:
>>>> Snape says to the DE basically leave Potter alone he is for the Dark
>>>> Lord to deal with.
>>>> OK, so if Snape is being truthful V says not to kill or harm Harry
>>>> that he'll deal with him
>>>> himself. Why not then just grab Harry outside on the grounds and
>>>> _take_ him to V so he can
>>>> do whatever he has planned for him? Seems kinda foolish of Snape to
>>>> just shout a few
>>>> insults and curses at him then just flee. Weak writing on JKR's part
>>>> or did Snape want to leave
>>>> Harry behind to fight another day?
>>>
>>> I have always taken this to be more evidence that Snape is not evil
>>> or V side.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>
>> I've always taken this as evidence of exactly what Snape said. That
>> the DE's were under certain orders about Harry, and killing,
>> capturing, or torturing him was obviously not part of Lord V's plan
>> at that point. Which side Snape is on is not, for the moment,
>> relevant. If he was evil, he wouldn't disobey LV. If he was good,
>> he had no reason to either.
>
>If he was evil... he wouldn't have prevented the other DE from harming
>Harry... he would have nothing to lose... if the other DE were successful in
>killing or capturing Harry... he would return as a hero, he killed DD which
>allowed the others to capture Harry. If they failed... he would still be the
>faithful servant... he killed DD and didn't disobey the dark lord and try to
>kill Harry [making him the only one who obeyed LV].
>
>I still see Snape's actions with Harry after DD death as *strong* evidence
>of him being good.
>
>Ken
>

Like his driving home the point Harry better figure out Occuls if he
tends to face Voldemort one on one? V's even more powerful at Legils
then Snape is. And Snape's having a stroll through the park with
Harry's mind.

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #265304 ]

Mo, 15 Mai 2006 09:58

Toon

On 14 May 2006 11:38:44 -0700, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> wrote:

>There is no way that Evil-Snape would have allowed Harry to be hurt
>against Lord V's orders. Unless he really, really likes being
>Crucioed.

Like Bellatrix in bed with, um, never mind. : P

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #267693 ]

Do, 18 Mai 2006 02:03

richard e white

Here in Minnesota wrote:

> Karnak17 wrote:
> > Here in Minnesota wrote:
> >> The Source wrote:
> >>> Snape says to the DE basically leave Potter alone he is for the Dark
> >>> Lord to deal with.
> >>> OK, so if Snape is being truthful V says not to kill or harm Harry
> >>> that he'll deal with him
> >>> himself. Why not then just grab Harry outside on the grounds and
> >>> _take_ him to V so he can
> >>> do whatever he has planned for him? Seems kinda foolish of Snape to
> >>> just shout a few
> >>> insults and curses at him then just flee. Weak writing on JKR's part
> >>> or did Snape want to leave
> >>> Harry behind to fight another day?
> >>
> >> I have always taken this to be more evidence that Snape is not evil
> >> or V side.
> >>
> >> Ken
> >
> > I've always taken this as evidence of exactly what Snape said. That
> > the DE's were under certain orders about Harry, and killing,
> > capturing, or torturing him was obviously not part of Lord V's plan
> > at that point. Which side Snape is on is not, for the moment,
> > relevant. If he was evil, he wouldn't disobey LV. If he was good,
> > he had no reason to either.
>
> If he was evil... he wouldn't have prevented the other DE from harming
> Harry... he would have nothing to lose... if the other DE were successful in
> killing or capturing Harry... he would return as a hero, he killed DD which
> allowed the others to capture Harry. If they failed... he would still be the
> faithful servant... he killed DD and didn't disobey the dark lord and try to
> kill Harry [making him the only one who obeyed LV].
>
> I still see Snape's actions with Harry after DD death as *strong* evidence
> of him being good.
>
> Ken

Snape knows about the magic that was placed on harry to protect him. You know
the one that harry recharges every year at the dursly's. I think that V and
Snape both have decided to avoid that protection. At this point it is more
likely that V thinks this protection is what has saved Harry from V so many
times. And as V knows tthrough Snape that this protection ends when Harry turns
17 both V and Snape may be playing a waiting game.
Snape thinks there is nothing speachal about Harry and he has told this to V.
So to there minds the best course would be to wait. At the point in question it
is a matter of weeks to the date in question.

--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #269606 ]

Do, 18 Mai 2006 10:01

Toon

On Wed, 17 May 2006 17:03:09 -0700, richard e white <chiphead [at] cox.net>
wrote:

>Here in Minnesota wrote:
>
>> Karnak17 wrote:
>> > Here in Minnesota wrote:
>> >> The Source wrote:
>> >>> Snape says to the DE basically leave Potter alone he is for the Dark
>> >>> Lord to deal with.
>> >>> OK, so if Snape is being truthful V says not to kill or harm Harry
>> >>> that he'll deal with him
>> >>> himself. Why not then just grab Harry outside on the grounds and
>> >>> _take_ him to V so he can
>> >>> do whatever he has planned for him? Seems kinda foolish of Snape to
>> >>> just shout a few
>> >>> insults and curses at him then just flee. Weak writing on JKR's part
>> >>> or did Snape want to leave
>> >>> Harry behind to fight another day?
>> >>
>> >> I have always taken this to be more evidence that Snape is not evil
>> >> or V side.
>> >>
>> >> Ken
>> >
>> > I've always taken this as evidence of exactly what Snape said. That
>> > the DE's were under certain orders about Harry, and killing,
>> > capturing, or torturing him was obviously not part of Lord V's plan
>> > at that point. Which side Snape is on is not, for the moment,
>> > relevant. If he was evil, he wouldn't disobey LV. If he was good,
>> > he had no reason to either.
>>
>> If he was evil... he wouldn't have prevented the other DE from harming
>> Harry... he would have nothing to lose... if the other DE were successful in
>> killing or capturing Harry... he would return as a hero, he killed DD which
>> allowed the others to capture Harry. If they failed... he would still be the
>> faithful servant... he killed DD and didn't disobey the dark lord and try to
>> kill Harry [making him the only one who obeyed LV].
>>
>> I still see Snape's actions with Harry after DD death as *strong* evidence
>> of him being good.
>>
>> Ken
>
>Snape knows about the magic that was placed on harry to protect him. You know
>the one that harry recharges every year at the dursly's. I think that V and
>Snape both have decided to avoid that protection. At this point it is more
>likely that V thinks this protection is what has saved Harry from V so many
>times. And as V knows tthrough Snape that this protection ends when Harry turns
>17 both V and Snape may be playing a waiting game.
>Snape thinks there is nothing speachal about Harry and he has told this to V.
>So to there minds the best course would be to wait. At the point in question it
>is a matter of weeks to the date in question.

Right. To protect gharry, Snape keeps V thinking he's mediocre at
best, and not worth the bother of DE's or a special visit to Hogwarts.
and everyday there's no threat of v, is a day Harry in theory can be
learning to beat him.

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #269639 ]

Do, 18 Mai 2006 17:23

wadkin2000

Toon wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2006 17:03:09 -0700, richard e white <chiphead [at] cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Here in Minnesota wrote:
> >
> >> Karnak17 wrote:
> >> > Here in Minnesota wrote:
> >> >> The Source wrote:
> >> >>> Snape says to the DE basically leave Potter alone he is for the Dark
> >> >>> Lord to deal with.
> >> >>> OK, so if Snape is being truthful V says not to kill or harm Harry
> >> >>> that he'll deal with him
> >> >>> himself. Why not then just grab Harry outside on the grounds and
> >> >>> _take_ him to V so he can
> >> >>> do whatever he has planned for him? Seems kinda foolish of Snape to
> >> >>> just shout a few
> >> >>> insults and curses at him then just flee. Weak writing on JKR's part
> >> >>> or did Snape want to leave
> >> >>> Harry behind to fight another day?
> >> >>
> >> >> I have always taken this to be more evidence that Snape is not evil
> >> >> or V side.
> >> >>
> >> >> Ken
> >> >
> >> > I've always taken this as evidence of exactly what Snape said. That
> >> > the DE's were under certain orders about Harry, and killing,
> >> > capturing, or torturing him was obviously not part of Lord V's plan
> >> > at that point. Which side Snape is on is not, for the moment,
> >> > relevant. If he was evil, he wouldn't disobey LV. If he was good,
> >> > he had no reason to either.
> >>
> >> If he was evil... he wouldn't have prevented the other DE from harming
> >> Harry... he would have nothing to lose... if the other DE were successful in
> >> killing or capturing Harry... he would return as a hero, he killed DD which
> >> allowed the others to capture Harry. If they failed... he would still be the
> >> faithful servant... he killed DD and didn't disobey the dark lord and try to
> >> kill Harry [making him the only one who obeyed LV].
> >>
> >> I still see Snape's actions with Harry after DD death as *strong* evidence
> >> of him being good.
> >>
> >> Ken
> >
> >Snape knows about the magic that was placed on harry to protect him. You know
> >the one that harry recharges every year at the dursly's. I think that V and
> >Snape both have decided to avoid that protection. At this point it is more
> >likely that V thinks this protection is what has saved Harry from V so many
> >times. And as V knows tthrough Snape that this protection ends when Harry turns
> >17 both V and Snape may be playing a waiting game.
> >Snape thinks there is nothing speachal about Harry and he has told this to V.
> >So to there minds the best course would be to wait. At the point in question it
> >is a matter of weeks to the date in question.
>
> Right. To protect gharry, Snape keeps V thinking he's mediocre at
> best, and not worth the bother of DE's or a special visit to Hogwarts.
> and everyday there's no threat of v, is a day Harry in theory can be
> learning to beat him.

My own feeling is that deep down Snape DOES think that Harry has the
innate power to defeat V (in POA, "...only a really powerful wizard
could have conjured up the Patronus") and probably feels, IMO
correctly, that so far, Harry really has survived through "dumb luck."
That goes against everything Severus Snape is at his core: someone who
is methodical, analytical and cautious (everything that Harry is not).
Unfortunately, he hasn't been able to let go of his younger grudges and
insecurities. I think he feels that everyone (DD particularly) gives
Harry an inordinate amount of latitude and credit for just living,
while he (Severus) has been walking a very thin line all these years
with his spying, never feeling that he's receiving the credit and
commendation he deserves (POA Ch.21 "Hermione's Secret").

As Richard said, I'm sure Snape has been feeding V the party line that
there's nothing special about Harry, trying to assure V that it will be
easy to do away with Harry.

It's a shame that Snape and Harry can't overcome their mutual loathing
of each other. If they did, they would be a formidable adversary for
Voldemort.

Re: Snape and V's orders... [message #269723 ]

Fr, 19 Mai 2006 09:50

Toon

On 18 May 2006 08:23:46 -0700, wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>I think he feels that everyone (DD particularly) gives
>Harry an inordinate amount of latitude and credit for just living,

I believe he tells Fudge that in POA's end. To which Fudge basically
says he's the same way. Harry's an exception to the rules.

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