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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Snape as Judas"
Snape as Judas" [message #262478] Sa, 06 Mai 2006 12:53
Zolak of Twylo  
Hi All,

Just a thought. I was reading some bits on JKR's website and something
jumped out at me. Please read this:



Some Random Facts About The Weasley Family
Ron was the only one of three major characters whose surname never
changed; he has been 'Weasley' from start to finish. In Britain and
Ireland the weasel has a bad reputation as an unfortunate, even
malevolent, animal. However, since childhood I have had a great
fondness for the family mustelidae; not so much malignant as maligned,
in my opinion.

There are also many superstitions associated with
redheaded people and most state that they are in some way unlucky
(Judas Escariot was supposedly red-haired), but this is nonsense; I
happen to like red hair as well as weasels.
Although I never meant him
to be like Sean, once I got Ron onto the page he often behaved like my
oldest friend, who is both very funny and deeply loyal. However, there
are also substantial differences between Ron and Sean. I have only once
set out to faithfully depict a real human being (see Gilderoy
Lockhart); everywhere else, though I might have borrowed the occasional
real person's characteristic, they are at least 90% imaginary.
Before
her marriage Mrs. Weasley was Molly Prewett. As you will note from
chapter one, Philosopher's Stone, she has lost close family members to
Voldemort.

Arthur Weasley was one of three brothers. Ginny (full name
Ginevra, not Virginia), is the first girl to be born into the Weasley
clan for several generations. 

Fred and George were born - when else?
- on April Fool's Day.

What jumped out at me was her citing of Judas Iscariot. She could have
chosen any number of people, but she chose this one....and she calls
him "unlucky" when most of Christendom wouldn't necessarily see him as
"unlucky".
Add to this that Jo has said she wouldn't discuss her religious beliefs
because that would give away the final plot twist in the story.
With the recent translation of The Gospel of Judas, does this give us a
clue? This gospel has been around for centuries but only recently
translated. It portrays Judas in a more favorable light saying that he
was the favorite of Jesus and was given "special information" withheld
from the other disciples. Judas was also given a job to do with full
knowledge that he would be reviled throughout history as the betrayer
of Jesus.
Can we draw a parallel with Snape betraying AD? Did Snape really do
what he was instructed to do according to AD's plan?
Just a thought...and yours?
Zolak
--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo

--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262481 ] Sa, 06 Mai 2006 14:15
roger_pearse  
Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> With the recent translation of The Gospel of Judas, does this give us a
> clue? This gospel has been around for centuries but only recently
> translated.

Just to clarify a possible misunderstanding; the text was composed
between 150-170 AD by Cainite gnostics, in Greek. A coptic translation
was made some time before 300, and a manuscript containing a copy of
that coptic version, together with three other gnostic texts, was
written around that time, and subsequently buried in a limestone box
with its owner somewhere near al Minya. The tomb was discovered by
peasants and robbed some time before 1983, and the manuscript (together
with three other manuscripts of uncertain origin) sold to a Cairo
dealer who got it out of Egypt and offered it to some scholars in 1983.
Unable to obtain his huge price, it rotted in a US bank box until 1999
when it was bought by a Swiss dealer, sold to a US dealer who cut it up
and sold bits, repossessed by the Swiss woman, and subsequently
published and translated in a deal with National Geographic estimated
to be worth no less than $1m, and probably more.

The text and translation, therefore, has been available to scholars for
about a month.

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/gospel_of_juda s

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262485 ] Sa, 06 Mai 2006 15:38
Zolak of Twylo  
On 2006-05-06 08:15:38 -0400, roger_pearse [at] yahoo.co.uk said:

> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
>> With the recent translation of The Gospel of Judas, does this give us a
>> clue? This gospel has been around for centuries but only recently
>> translated.
>
> Just to clarify a possible misunderstanding; the text was composed
> between 150-170 AD by Cainite gnostics, in Greek. A coptic translation
> was made some time before 300, and a manuscript containing a copy of
> that coptic version, together with three other gnostic texts, was
> written around that time, and subsequently buried in a limestone box
> with its owner somewhere near al Minya. The tomb was discovered by
> peasants and robbed some time before 1983, and the manuscript (together
> with three other manuscripts of uncertain origin) sold to a Cairo
> dealer who got it out of Egypt and offered it to some scholars in 1983.
> Unable to obtain his huge price, it rotted in a US bank box until 1999
> when it was bought by a Swiss dealer, sold to a US dealer who cut it up
> and sold bits, repossessed by the Swiss woman, and subsequently
> published and translated in a deal with National Geographic estimated
> to be worth no less than $1m, and probably more.
>
> The text and translation, therefore, has been available to scholars for
> about a month.
>
> http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/gospel_of_juda s
>
> All the best,
>
> Roger Pearse


I knew of this, but shortened the story to keep to my point.

Still, as this text claims that Jesus imparted some special, privileged
info to Judas and instructed him to betray Him, did AD do the same
with Snape? Did Snape agree fully knowing that he would be hated
and reviled by Wizardkind for eternity, only he and AD knowing the
real truth? Did AD have to die for the plan to come to fruition?

--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262495 ] Sa, 06 Mai 2006 18:43
karnak17  
Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> On 2006-05-06 08:15:38 -0400, roger_pearse [at] yahoo.co.uk said:
>
> > Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> >> With the recent translation of The Gospel of Judas, does this give us a
> >> clue? This gospel has been around for centuries but only recently
> >> translated.
> >
> > Just to clarify a possible misunderstanding; the text was composed
> > between 150-170 AD by Cainite gnostics, in Greek. A coptic translation
> > was made some time before 300, and a manuscript containing a copy of
> > that coptic version, together with three other gnostic texts, was
> > written around that time, and subsequently buried in a limestone box
> > with its owner somewhere near al Minya. The tomb was discovered by
> > peasants and robbed some time before 1983, and the manuscript (together
> > with three other manuscripts of uncertain origin) sold to a Cairo
> > dealer who got it out of Egypt and offered it to some scholars in 1983.
> > Unable to obtain his huge price, it rotted in a US bank box until 1999
> > when it was bought by a Swiss dealer, sold to a US dealer who cut it up
> > and sold bits, repossessed by the Swiss woman, and subsequently
> > published and translated in a deal with National Geographic estimated
> > to be worth no less than $1m, and probably more.
> >
> > The text and translation, therefore, has been available to scholars for
> > about a month.
> >
> > http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/gospel_of_juda s
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Roger Pearse
>
>
> I knew of this, but shortened the story to keep to my point.
>
> Still, as this text claims that Jesus imparted some special, privileged
> info to Judas and instructed him to betray Him, did AD do the same
> with Snape? Did Snape agree fully knowing that he would be hated
> and reviled by Wizardkind for eternity, only he and AD knowing the
> real truth? Did AD have to die for the plan to come to fruition?


Well, if the translation has only been available for about a month, I
doubt Rowling conceived Snape with this parallel in mind.

There is certainly a strong parallel between "Good Snape" and
Cainite-Gnostic-Judas. But also strong parallels with a lot of other
fictional characters I can think of. A character from the HORATIO
HORNBLOWER series comes to mind, and tons of spy v spy or war movies
also.
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262497 ] Sa, 06 Mai 2006 20:14
Stubby Boardman  
On 2006-05-06 12:43:44 -0400, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> said:

>
> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
>> On 2006-05-06 08:15:38 -0400, roger_pearse [at] yahoo.co.uk said:
>>
>>> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
>>>> With the recent translation of The Gospel of Judas, does this give us a
>>>> clue? This gospel has been around for centuries but only recently
>>>> translated.
>>>
>>> Just to clarify a possible misunderstanding; the text was composed
>>> between 150-170 AD by Cainite gnostics, in Greek. A coptic translation
>>> was made some time before 300, and a manuscript containing a copy of
>>> that coptic version, together with three other gnostic texts, was
>>> written around that time, and subsequently buried in a limestone box
>>> with its owner somewhere near al Minya. The tomb was discovered by
>>> peasants and robbed some time before 1983, and the manuscript (together
>>> with three other manuscripts of uncertain origin) sold to a Cairo
>>> dealer who got it out of Egypt and offered it to some scholars in 1983.
>>> Unable to obtain his huge price, it rotted in a US bank box until 1999
>>> when it was bought by a Swiss dealer, sold to a US dealer who cut it up
>>> and sold bits, repossessed by the Swiss woman, and subsequently
>>> published and translated in a deal with National Geographic estimated
>>> to be worth no less than $1m, and probably more.
>>>
>>> The text and translation, therefore, has been available to scholars for
>>> about a month.
>>>
>>> http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/gospel_of_juda s
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Roger Pearse
>>
>>
>> I knew of this, but shortened the story to keep to my point.
>>
>> Still, as this text claims that Jesus imparted some special, privileged
>> info to Judas and instructed him to betray Him, did AD do the same
>> with Snape? Did Snape agree fully knowing that he would be hated
>> and reviled by Wizardkind for eternity, only he and AD knowing the
>> real truth? Did AD have to die for the plan to come to fruition?
>
>
> Well, if the translation has only been available for about a month, I
> doubt Rowling conceived Snape with this parallel in mind.
>
> There is certainly a strong parallel between "Good Snape" and
> Cainite-Gnostic-Judas. But also strong parallels with a lot of other
> fictional characters I can think of. A character from the HORATIO
> HORNBLOWER series comes to mind, and tons of spy v spy or war movies
> also.

This particular translation has been available for about a month, but
the ideas behind Gnosticism and their view of Judas have been
known for centuries.

I know there are other parallels, but this struck me a significant because
JKR is on record as not revealing to much about her religious beliefs
because it would give away the end game in her story.

Again, just a thought. I know this is pretty convoluted, but still,
it's intriguing.

Stubby
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262498 ] Sa, 06 Mai 2006 20:42
karnak17  
Stubby Boardman wrote:
> On 2006-05-06 12:43:44 -0400, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> said:
>
> >
> > Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> >> On 2006-05-06 08:15:38 -0400, roger_pearse [at] yahoo.co.uk said:
> >>
> >>> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> >>>> With the recent translation of The Gospel of Judas, does this give us a
> >>>> clue? This gospel has been around for centuries but only recently
> >>>> translated.
> >>>
> >>> Just to clarify a possible misunderstanding; the text was composed
> >>> between 150-170 AD by Cainite gnostics, in Greek. A coptic translation
> >>> was made some time before 300, and a manuscript containing a copy of
> >>> that coptic version, together with three other gnostic texts, was
> >>> written around that time, and subsequently buried in a limestone box
> >>> with its owner somewhere near al Minya. The tomb was discovered by
> >>> peasants and robbed some time before 1983, and the manuscript (together
> >>> with three other manuscripts of uncertain origin) sold to a Cairo
> >>> dealer who got it out of Egypt and offered it to some scholars in 1983.
> >>> Unable to obtain his huge price, it rotted in a US bank box until 1999
> >>> when it was bought by a Swiss dealer, sold to a US dealer who cut it up
> >>> and sold bits, repossessed by the Swiss woman, and subsequently
> >>> published and translated in a deal with National Geographic estimated
> >>> to be worth no less than $1m, and probably more.
> >>>
> >>> The text and translation, therefore, has been available to scholars for
> >>> about a month.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/gospel_of_juda s
> >>>
> >>> All the best,
> >>>
> >>> Roger Pearse
> >>
> >>
> >> I knew of this, but shortened the story to keep to my point.
> >>
> >> Still, as this text claims that Jesus imparted some special, privileged
> >> info to Judas and instructed him to betray Him, did AD do the same
> >> with Snape? Did Snape agree fully knowing that he would be hated
> >> and reviled by Wizardkind for eternity, only he and AD knowing the
> >> real truth? Did AD have to die for the plan to come to fruition?
> >
> >
> > Well, if the translation has only been available for about a month, I
> > doubt Rowling conceived Snape with this parallel in mind.
> >
> > There is certainly a strong parallel between "Good Snape" and
> > Cainite-Gnostic-Judas. But also strong parallels with a lot of other
> > fictional characters I can think of. A character from the HORATIO
> > HORNBLOWER series comes to mind, and tons of spy v spy or war movies
> > also.
>
> This particular translation has been available for about a month, but
> the ideas behind Gnosticism and their view of Judas have been
> known for centuries.

Okay.

> I know there are other parallels, but this struck me a significant because
> JKR is on record as not revealing to much about her religious beliefs
> because it would give away the end game in her story.

I assume (hope) that she is referring to general Christian themes. I
find as a personal matter of taste that the idea of making one
character "represent" some other character instead of being themselves,
or to have a story "parallel" another story instead of follwing its own
logic, to generally product bad fiction. And looking at good fiction
in that way tends to make it seem bad, even where before it wasnt'.


> Again, just a thought. I know this is pretty convoluted, but still,
> it's intriguing.

I agree that it is an intriguing idea. But I don't think much of
looking at Snape as anything but Snape, whatever his resemblances to
other intruguing individuals. I recall a very insightful post which
compared Harry/Snape to Sam/Gollum in LOTR. But it wasn't trying to
claim that Harry "represented" Sam or was written to parallel Sam.
Rather, it was just using our knowledge of Sam as a way to gain insight
into Harry.

Using our knowledge of Judas to gain insight into Snape would be fine
too. But just saying that Snape is or represents Judas because they
resemble eachother seems to me personally to diminish the character and
the story somehow.
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262504 ] Sa, 06 Mai 2006 21:48
R Black  
Snape Absolutely killed Albus Dumbledore because AD ask him to do it.

I have stated in this forum for some time that Snape is on his OWN side,
Not AD or LV's but his own. I have Also stated that this means that he
has to work with AD and he has.

In terms of powerful wizards, the listing now goes, without a question,
LV, Snape, and after that, I dont know, maybe, Hermone and Harry.

Snape is playing his own game, and that game includes the destruction of
LV. LV did something to Snape to turn him against him, Although I
dont know what that is.

But, this is classic myth tail, where the attendents of Master will be
his desturction.

I will also make this prediction, again. Harry will not physically kill
LV, but destroy his persona as LV. It will LV with a mutilated soul,
mad as Tom Riddle, and confined in St Mungos.

IMHO

Chip

Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Just a thought. I was reading some bits on JKR's website and something
> jumped out at me. Please read this:
>
>
>
> Some Random Facts About The Weasley Family
> Ron was the only one of three major characters whose surname never
> changed; he has been 'Weasley' from start to finish. In Britain and
> Ireland the weasel has a bad reputation as an unfortunate, even
> malevolent, animal. However, since childhood I have had a great fondness
> for the family mustelidae; not so much malignant as maligned, in my
> opinion.

There are also many superstitions associated with redheaded
> people and most state that they are in some way unlucky (Judas Escariot
> was supposedly red-haired), but this is nonsense; I happen to like red
> hair as well as weasels.
Although I never meant him to be like Sean,
> once I got Ron onto the page he often behaved like my oldest friend, who
> is both very funny and deeply loyal. However, there are also substantial
> differences between Ron and Sean. I have only once set out to faithfully
> depict a real human being (see Gilderoy Lockhart); everywhere else,
> though I might have borrowed the occasional real person's
> characteristic, they are at least 90% imaginary.
Before her marriage
> Mrs. Weasley was Molly Prewett. As you will note from chapter one,
> Philosopher's Stone, she has lost close family members to
> Voldemort.

Arthur Weasley was one of three brothers. Ginny (full name
> Ginevra, not Virginia), is the first girl to be born into the Weasley
> clan for several generations. 

Fred and George were born - when else? -
> on April Fool's Day.
>
> What jumped out at me was her citing of Judas Iscariot. She could have
> chosen any number of people, but she chose this one....and she calls him
> "unlucky" when most of Christendom wouldn't necessarily see him as
> "unlucky".
> Add to this that Jo has said she wouldn't discuss her religious beliefs
> because that would give away the final plot twist in the story.
> With the recent translation of The Gospel of Judas, does this give us a
> clue? This gospel has been around for centuries but only recently
> translated. It portrays Judas in a more favorable light saying that he
> was the favorite of Jesus and was given "special information" withheld
> from the other disciples. Judas was also given a job to do with full
> knowledge that he would be reviled throughout history as the betrayer of
> Jesus.
> Can we draw a parallel with Snape betraying AD? Did Snape really do
> what he was instructed to do according to AD's plan?
> Just a thought...and yours?
> Zolak
> --
> Enjoy,
>
> Zolak of Twylo
>
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262525 ] So, 07 Mai 2006 00:03
drusilla  
Zolak of Twylo escribió:

> I knew of this, but shortened the story to keep to my point.
>
> Still, as this text claims that Jesus imparted some special, privileged
> info to Judas and instructed him to betray Him, did AD do the same
> with Snape? Did Snape agree fully knowing that he would be hated
> and reviled by Wizardkind for eternity, only he and AD knowing the
> real truth? Did AD have to die for the plan to come to fruition?

He he! lightly OT but when I first heard of the Gospel of Judas, I
couldn't help to think :'that's sooo potterian...'.
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262530 ] So, 07 Mai 2006 00:19
Zolak of Twylo  
On 2006-05-06 18:03:43 -0400, drusilla <me [at] me.net> said:

> Zolak of Twylo escribió:
>
>> I knew of this, but shortened the story to keep to my point.
>>
>> Still, as this text claims that Jesus imparted some special, privileged
>> info to Judas and instructed him to betray Him, did AD do the same
>> with Snape? Did Snape agree fully knowing that he would be hated
>> and reviled by Wizardkind for eternity, only he and AD knowing the
>> real truth? Did AD have to die for the plan to come to fruition?
>
> He he! lightly OT but when I first heard of the Gospel of Judas, I
> couldn't help to think :'that's sooo potterian...'.

No, not off topic at all. It's the exact point of the whole thread. I
had the same reaction.
That's why I wondered about it. I had read that Jo wouldn't disclose
her religious
beliefs in order to avoid divulging to much about the end game. Could
this be what
she was holding back?

--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262543 ] So, 07 Mai 2006 07:04
Toon  
On Sat, 6 May 2006 06:53:46 -0400, Zolak of Twylo
<dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote:

> Did Snape really do
>what he was instructed to do according to AD's plan?

Yes. Yes he did. And everybody hates him for the betrayal he was
forced to do.

Then again, I don't see why everyone's shocked over the Judas Gosepel.
Jesus flat out says Judas will betray him. he seemed fine with it.
Wanted Judas to betray him. How is anything different other than
we're all supposed to forgive the cheapskate? (Silver? Geeze, hold
out for gold like a normal man would.) In fact, since Jesus never
seemed bothered by the betrayal acoming, why should anybody today be?
shoudla forgiven the dope for being Jesus' patsy, and been on with
their lives.
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262544 ] So, 07 Mai 2006 07:06
Toon  
On Sat, 6 May 2006 09:38:24 -0400, Zolak of Twylo
<dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote:

>did AD do the same
>with Snape? Did Snape agree fully knowing that he would be hated
>and reviled by Wizardkind for eternity, only he and AD knowing the
>real truth? Did AD have to die for the plan to come to fruition?

Yes, hence he's complaining, and being quite miserable about doing it
right before doing it.
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262558 ] So, 07 Mai 2006 08:48
kilroy  
"Zolak of Twylo" <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote in message
news:2006050606534616807-dannythomas [at] walnutscom...
> Hi All,
>
> Just a thought. I was reading some bits on JKR's website and something
> jumped out at me. Please read this:
>
>
>
> Some Random Facts About The Weasley Family
> Ron was the only one of three major characters whose surname never
> changed; he has been 'Weasley' from start to finish. In Britain and
> Ireland the weasel has a bad reputation as an unfortunate, even
> malevolent, animal. However, since childhood I have had a great fondness
> for the family mustelidae; not so much malignant as maligned, in my
> opinion.??There are also many superstitions associated with redheaded
> people and most state that they are in some way unlucky (Judas Escariot
> was supposedly red-haired), but this is nonsense; I happen to like red
> hair as well as weasels.?Although I never meant him to be like Sean, once
> I got Ron onto the page he often behaved like my oldest friend, who is
> both very funny and deeply loyal. However, there are also substantial
> differences between Ron and Sean. I have only once set out to faithfully
> depict a real human being (see Gilderoy Lockhart); everywhere else, though
> I might have borrowed the occasional real person's characteristic, they
> are at least 90% imaginary.?Before her marriage Mrs. Weasley was Molly
> Prewett. As you will note from chapter one, Philosopher's Stone, she has
> lost close family members to Voldemort.??Arthur Weasley was one of three
> brothers. Ginny (full name Ginevra, not Virginia), is the first girl to be
> born into the Weasley clan for several generations. ??Fred and George were
> born - when else? - on April Fool's Day.
>
> What jumped out at me was her citing of Judas Iscariot. She could have
> chosen any number of people, but she chose this one....and she calls him
> "unlucky" when most of Christendom wouldn't necessarily see him as
> "unlucky".
> Add to this that Jo has said she wouldn't discuss her religious beliefs
> because that would give away the final plot twist in the story.
> With the recent translation of The Gospel of Judas, does this give us a
> clue? This gospel has been around for centuries but only recently
> translated. It portrays Judas in a more favorable light saying that he
> was the favorite of Jesus and was given "special information" withheld
> from the other disciples. Judas was also given a job to do with full
> knowledge that he would be reviled throughout history as the betrayer of
> Jesus.
> Can we draw a parallel with Snape betraying AD? Did Snape really do what
> he was instructed to do according to AD's plan?
> Just a thought...and yours?
> Zolak
> --
> Enjoy,
>
> Zolak of Twylo
>
> --
> Enjoy,
>
> Zolak of Twylo
>
Actually, I have suggested before that if Snape is still good, he had to
tell Dumbledore about his unbreakable vow, and Dumbledore, knowing that
keeping his spy close to Voldemort was for the greater good, told Snape to
do what had to be done. Of course, if Snape is bad, then none of this
postulating will be all for nothing. It's still fun though.
--
Kilroy was here
"I think we understand what military fame is:
To be killed on the field of battle and have our names spelled wrong in the
newspapers."
-William Tecumseh Sherman
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262577 ] So, 07 Mai 2006 11:56
Helena Bowles  
"drusilla" <me [at] me.net> wrote in message news:e3j6cj$hmp$2 [at] emma.aioe.org...
> Zolak of Twylo escribió:
>
>> I knew of this, but shortened the story to keep to my point.
>>
>> Still, as this text claims that Jesus imparted some special, privileged
>> info to Judas and instructed him to betray Him, did AD do the same
>> with Snape? Did Snape agree fully knowing that he would be hated
>> and reviled by Wizardkind for eternity, only he and AD knowing the
>> real truth? Did AD have to die for the plan to come to fruition?
>
> He he! lightly OT but when I first heard of the Gospel of Judas, I
> couldn't help to think :'that's sooo potterian...'.

We must be very careful discussing this because if Snape is Judas then Dd is
Christ and before we know it we'll be hipdeep in "Dumbledore will come back
from the dead" posts...;-)
Helena
>
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262579 ] So, 07 Mai 2006 12:11
Zolak of Twylo  
On 2006-05-07 05:56:59 -0400, "Helena Bowles"
<helena.bowles [at] tiscali.co.uk> said:

>
> "drusilla" <me [at] me.net> wrote in message news:e3j6cj$hmp$2 [at] emma.aioe.org...
>> Zolak of Twylo escribió:
>>
>>> I knew of this, but shortened the story to keep to my point.
>>>
>>> Still, as this text claims that Jesus imparted some special, privileged
>>> info to Judas and instructed him to betray Him, did AD do the same
>>> with Snape? Did Snape agree fully knowing that he would be hated
>>> and reviled by Wizardkind for eternity, only he and AD knowing the
>>> real truth? Did AD have to die for the plan to come to fruition?
>>
>> He he! lightly OT but when I first heard of the Gospel of Judas, I
>> couldn't help to think :'that's sooo potterian...'.
>
> We must be very careful discussing this because if Snape is Judas then
> Dd is Christ and before we know it we'll be hipdeep in "Dumbledore will
> come back from the dead" posts...;-)
> Helena


Nah. I didn't mean it like that. It's the Dumbledore imparting info
to Snape and then
instructing him to make sure he (AD) dies...perhaps to ignite Harry's
determination
to hone his skills and do the job before him.

--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262580 ] So, 07 Mai 2006 12:14
Zolak of Twylo  
On 2006-05-07 01:04:50 -0400, Toon <toon [at] toon.com> said:

> On Sat, 6 May 2006 06:53:46 -0400, Zolak of Twylo
> <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote:
>
>> Did Snape really do what he was instructed to do according to AD's plan?
>
> Yes. Yes he did. And everybody hates him for the betrayal he was
> forced to do.
>
> Then again, I don't see why everyone's shocked over the Judas Gosepel.
> Jesus flat out says Judas will betray him.

No, He says "one of you will betray me". He then goes to Judas and says,
"Do what you have to do".

> he seemed fine with it.
> Wanted Judas to betray him.

It never explicitly says that, but it is implied.
--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #262620 ] Mo, 08 Mai 2006 02:41
devnull  
Karnak17 wrote:

>
> Stubby Boardman wrote:
>> On 2006-05-06 12:43:44 -0400, "Karnak17" <karnak17 [at] cs.com> said:
>>
>> >
>> > Zolak of Twylo wrote:
>> >> On 2006-05-06 08:15:38 -0400, roger_pearse [at] yahoo.co.uk said:
>> >>
>> >>> Zolak of Twylo wrote:
>> >>>> With the recent translation of The Gospel of Judas, does this give
>> >>>> us a
>> >>>> clue? This gospel has been around for centuries but only recently
>> >>>> translated.
>> >>>
>> >>> Just to clarify a possible misunderstanding; the text was composed
>> >>> between 150-170 AD by Cainite gnostics, in Greek. A coptic
>> >>> translation was made some time before 300, and a manuscript
>> >>> containing a copy of that coptic version, together with three other
>> >>> gnostic texts, was written around that time, and subsequently buried
>> >>> in a limestone box
>> >>> with its owner somewhere near al Minya. The tomb was discovered by
>> >>> peasants and robbed some time before 1983, and the manuscript
>> >>> (together with three other manuscripts of uncertain origin) sold to a
>> >>> Cairo dealer who got it out of Egypt and offered it to some scholars
>> >>> in 1983. Unable to obtain his huge price, it rotted in a US bank box
>> >>> until 1999 when it was bought by a Swiss dealer, sold to a US dealer
>> >>> who cut it up and sold bits, repossessed by the Swiss woman, and
>> >>> subsequently published and translated in a deal with National
>> >>> Geographic estimated to be worth no less than $1m, and probably more.
>> >>>
>> >>> The text and translation, therefore, has been available to scholars
>> >>> for about a month.
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/gospel_of_juda s
>> >>>
>> >>> All the best,
>> >>>
>> >>> Roger Pearse
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I knew of this, but shortened the story to keep to my point.
>> >>
>> >> Still, as this text claims that Jesus imparted some special,
>> >> privileged info to Judas and instructed him to betray Him, did AD do
>> >> the same
>> >> with Snape? Did Snape agree fully knowing that he would be hated
>> >> and reviled by Wizardkind for eternity, only he and AD knowing the
>> >> real truth? Did AD have to die for the plan to come to fruition?
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, if the translation has only been available for about a month, I
>> > doubt Rowling conceived Snape with this parallel in mind.
>> >
>> > There is certainly a strong parallel between "Good Snape" and
>> > Cainite-Gnostic-Judas. But also strong parallels with a lot of other
>> > fictional characters I can think of. A character from the HORATIO
>> > HORNBLOWER series comes to mind, and tons of spy v spy or war movies
>> > also.
>>
>> This particular translation has been available for about a month, but
>> the ideas behind Gnosticism and their view of Judas have been
>> known for centuries.
>
> Okay.
>
>> I know there are other parallels, but this struck me a significant
>> because JKR is on record as not revealing to much about her religious
>> beliefs because it would give away the end game in her story.
>
> I assume (hope) that she is referring to general Christian themes. I
> find as a personal matter of taste that the idea of making one
> character "represent" some other character instead of being themselves,
> or to have a story "parallel" another story instead of follwing its own
> logic, to generally product bad fiction. And looking at good fiction
> in that way tends to make it seem bad, even where before it wasnt'.

Excellent taste, IMHO, and one I share. This is a reason that makes some
books from Orson Scott Card unreadable. Frankly, when I read speculative
fiction I don't like to be indoctrinated with the beliefs of the author.

--
Take the Snape polls: http://snape.mosteo.com [Updated 16/08]
Re: getting rid of Voldemort [message #264743 ] Mo, 08 Mai 2006 09:01
dicconf  
In article <125pvbu51p3fk22 [at] corp.supernews.com>,
R Black <racblack [at] NOSPAM.inmtrex..XXXnet> wrote:

>Snape Absolutely killed Albus Dumbledore because AD ask him to do it.
>
>I have stated in this forum for some time that Snape is on his OWN side,
>Not AD or LV's but his own. I have Also stated that this means that he
>has to work with AD and he has.
>
>In terms of powerful wizards, the listing now goes, without a question,
>LV, Snape, and after that, I dont know, maybe, Hermione and Harry.
>
>Snape is playing his own game, and that game includes the destruction
>of LV. LV did something to Snape to turn him against him, Although
>I dont know what that is.
>
>But, this is classic myth tail, where the attendents of Master will be
>his destruction.
>
>I will also make this prediction, again. Harry will not physically kill
>LV, but destroy his persona as LV. It will LV with a mutilated soul,
>mad as Tom Riddle, and confined in St Mungos.
>
>IMHO
>
>Chip

It would be too dangerous to keep him in St. Mungo's. The obliviated
body will have to be Dementored to remove the soul and then permanently
turned to stone. Or some equally permanent solution. The soul piece in
Harry has already helped him; it is no longer really Voldemort's except
for making a link to its source.

=Tamar
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #264751 ] Mo, 08 Mai 2006 09:56
Toon  
On Sun, 7 May 2006 06:11:23 -0400, Zolak of Twylo
<dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote:

>
>
>Nah. I didn't mean it like that. It's the Dumbledore imparting info
>to Snape and then
>instructing him to make sure he (AD) dies...perhaps to ignite Harry's
>determination
>to hone his skills and do the job before him.

Instead of not wasting 7 years and training him.
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #264752 ] Mo, 08 Mai 2006 09:58
Toon  
On Sun, 7 May 2006 06:14:00 -0400, Zolak of Twylo
<dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote:

>On 2006-05-07 01:04:50 -0400, Toon <toon [at] toon.com> said:
>
>> On Sat, 6 May 2006 06:53:46 -0400, Zolak of Twylo
>> <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Did Snape really do what he was instructed to do according to AD's plan?
>>
>> Yes. Yes he did. And everybody hates him for the betrayal he was
>> forced to do.
>>
>> Then again, I don't see why everyone's shocked over the Judas Gosepel.
>> Jesus flat out says Judas will betray him.
>
>No, He says "one of you will betray me". He then goes to Judas and says,
>"Do what you have to do".

He knows what's coming. And reminding Judas to do it. Clealry, he
wants this to happen.

I'm surprised the others didn't just kill Judas and save the trouble
of a betrayal later.
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #264799 ] Mo, 08 Mai 2006 20:22
roger_pearse  
Jano wrote:
> > I assume (hope) that she is referring to general Christian themes. I
> > find as a personal matter of taste that the idea of making one
> > character "represent" some other character instead of being themselves,
> > or to have a story "parallel" another story instead of follwing its own
> > logic, to generally product bad fiction. And looking at good fiction
> > in that way tends to make it seem bad, even where before it wasnt'.
>
> Excellent taste, IMHO, and one I share. This is a reason that makes some
> books from Orson Scott Card unreadable. Frankly, when I read speculative
> fiction I don't like to be indoctrinated with the beliefs of the author.

Notoriously J.R.R.Tolkien felt the same way. But it's hard to read any
author and not be affected unconsciously by the beliefs that are taken
for granted in it. This is why we must filter our reading, unless we
wish to have our souls filled with rubbish and puddles of yukkiness
(some images can NEVER be got rid of, once acquired -- I'm thinking of
a scene in John Burchard's diary of the life of the Borgia pope,
myself, but it applies equally to many other things no doubt).

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #264810 ] Mo, 08 Mai 2006 20:46
Helena Bowles  
"Zolak of Twylo" <dannythomas [at] walnuts.com> wrote in message
news:2006050706112316807-dannythomas [at] walnutscom...
> On 2006-05-07 05:56:59 -0400, "Helena Bowles"
> <helena.bowles [at] tiscali.co.uk> said:
>
>>
>> "drusilla" <me [at] me.net> wrote in message
>> news:e3j6cj$hmp$2 [at] emma.aioe.org...
>>> Zolak of Twylo escribió:
>>>
>>>> I knew of this, but shortened the story to keep to my point.
>>>>
>>>> Still, as this text claims that Jesus imparted some special, privileged
>>>> info to Judas and instructed him to betray Him, did AD do the same
>>>> with Snape? Did Snape agree fully knowing that he would be hated
>>>> and reviled by Wizardkind for eternity, only he and AD knowing the
>>>> real truth? Did AD have to die for the plan to come to fruition?
>>>
>>> He he! lightly OT but when I first heard of the Gospel of Judas, I
>>> couldn't help to think :'that's sooo potterian...'.
>>
>> We must be very careful discussing this because if Snape is Judas then Dd
>> is Christ and before we know it we'll be hipdeep in "Dumbledore will come
>> back from the dead" posts...;-)
>> Helena
>
>
> Nah. I didn't mean it like that. It's the Dumbledore imparting info to
> Snape and then
> instructing him to make sure he (AD) dies...perhaps to ignite Harry's
> determination
> to hone his skills and do the job before him.

Oh, I know *you* didn't mean it - it was some other people I was worrying
about. I haven't forgotten all the "Sirius/Dumbledore will return"
threads-of-denial that filled this group for weeks after Ootp and HBP first
came out...
Helena
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #265005 ] Mi, 10 Mai 2006 19:28
Arran  
I have also seen the possibility that Snape is playing Judas to
Dumbledore's Christ.... I just hope Snape doesn't end up committing
suicide. I have mentioned this in Galadriel Waters' New Clues 6
Discussion.... See my posts on http://newclues.mugglenet.com/nc6/. I go
by AbyBlutjager there.... Also check out
http://abyblutjager.blogspot.com.
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #265221 ] Sa, 13 Mai 2006 16:10
Thomas Madura  
Zolak of Twylo wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Just a thought. I was reading some bits on JKR's website and something
> jumped out at me. Please read this:
>
>
>
> Some Random Facts About The Weasley Family
> Ron was the only one of three major characters whose surname never
> changed; he has been 'Weasley' from start to finish. In Britain and
> Ireland the weasel has a bad reputation as an unfortunate, even
> malevolent, animal. However, since childhood I have had a great fondness
> for the family mustelidae; not so much malignant as maligned, in my
> opinion.

There are also many superstitions associated with redheaded
> people and most state that they are in some way unlucky (Judas Escariot
> was supposedly red-haired), but this is nonsense; I happen to like red
> hair as well as weasels.
Although I never meant him to be like Sean,
> once I got Ron onto the page he often behaved like my oldest friend, who
> is both very funny and deeply loyal. However, there are also substantial
> differences between Ron and Sean. I have only once set out to faithfully
> depict a real human being (see Gilderoy Lockhart); everywhere else,
> though I might have borrowed the occasional real person's
> characteristic, they are at least 90% imaginary.
Before her marriage
> Mrs. Weasley was Molly Prewett. As you will note from chapter one,
> Philosopher's Stone, she has lost close family members to
> Voldemort.

Arthur Weasley was one of three brothers. Ginny (full name
> Ginevra, not Virginia), is the first girl to be born into the Weasley
> clan for several generations. 

Fred and George were born - when else? -
> on April Fool's Day.
>
> What jumped out at me was her citing of Judas Iscariot. She could have
> chosen any number of people, but she chose this one....and she calls him
> "unlucky" when most of Christendom wouldn't necessarily see him as
> "unlucky".
> Add to this that Jo has said she wouldn't discuss her religious beliefs
> because that would give away the final plot twist in the story.
> With the recent translation of The Gospel of Judas, does this give us a
> clue? This gospel has been around for centuries but only recently
> translated. It portrays Judas in a more favorable light saying that he
> was the favorite of Jesus and was given "special information" withheld
> from the other disciples. Judas was also given a job to do with full
> knowledge that he would be reviled throughout history as the betrayer of
> Jesus.
> Can we draw a parallel with Snape betraying AD? Did Snape really do
> what he was instructed to do according to AD's plan?
> Just a thought...and yours?
> Zolak
> --
> Enjoy,
>
> Zolak of Twylo
>

Something is clearly wrong here.


When Quirrel used the Troll to create a diversion and go looking for the
stone - it was Snape who stopped him. (You would think V - on Quirrels
head - would have known that too)

When the "moody" turned back into Barty crouch JR - it was Snape who was
left to guard him.

I have often thought that SNape's treatment of Harry was to force Harry
to learn things - to prepare him for his destiny - since obviously no
one else was doing that or did that. (That remains my biggest fault with
the books - there was no effort to train Harry for V. )
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #265249 ] So, 14 Mai 2006 15:08
Alex Clark  
Toon wrote:
> Then again, I don't see why everyone's shocked over the Judas Gosepel.
> Jesus flat out says Judas will betray him. he seemed fine with it.
> Wanted Judas to betray him. How is anything different other than
> we're all supposed to forgive the cheapskate? (Silver? Geeze, hold
> out for gold like a normal man would.) In fact, since Jesus never
> seemed bothered by the betrayal acoming, why should anybody today be?
> shoudla forgiven the dope for being Jesus' patsy, and been on with
> their lives.

But there's a controversy over whether the word was "betray" at all.
IIUC, it could have meant that, or it could have meant "to hand over".
In the latter case we don't know that Judas betrayed Jesus, and there
is no reason to assume that Jesus did not intend to be handed over.
Certainly he stayed put instead of fleeing when he expected that he was
about to be taken by his deadly enemies.

As for the payment, I think that anyone who handed Jesus over, for any
motive, would have been paid, unless he actually refused to touch the
money. Those who wanted Jesus handed over would have insisted on paying
for professional service. And of course the payment was in silver;
that's the currency that you could actually spend on the street. Gold
is for settling debts among rulers, rich people, and gold miners (the
latter only because they've got it right there handy).

--
Alex Clark

I am droll mod voter (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle, but not by one
of the judges on "America's Next Top Model")
Re: Snape as Judas" [message #265250 ] So, 14 Mai 2006 15:12
Alex Clark  
Toon wrote:
> He knows what's coming. And reminding Judas to do it. Clealry, he
> wants this to happen.
>
> I'm surprised the others didn't just kill Judas and save the trouble
> of a betrayal later.

That would have been against their religion.

--
Alex Clark

I am Rev. Om Drool, Ltd. (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)
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