ST5: Kirk and Spock = family

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Science Fiction » alt.startrek » ST5: Kirk and Spock = family

ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20397]

So, 24 April 2005 02:28

ToolPackinMama

So, at the end, Kirk's all "I lost a brother once... luckily I got him
back".

At this point we realize he's speaking of Spock, not "Sam".

McCoy's all, "I thought you said people like us don't have families."

And Kirk's all, "I was wrong."

So, Spock = Kirk's family, basically.

It's clearly not a "brothers-in-arms" thing, it's a Love Makes A Family
thing.

That's what I call NOT SUBTLE. But is it canon? Why, yes, it is.

Discuss.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20399 ]

So, 24 April 2005 02:38

whodunit

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20420 ]

So, 24 April 2005 06:08

Ragnar

ToolPackinMama wrote:
> So, at the end, Kirk's all "I lost a brother once... luckily I got him
> back".
>
> At this point we realize he's speaking of Spock, not "Sam".
>
> McCoy's all, "I thought you said people like us don't have families."
>
> And Kirk's all, "I was wrong."
>
> So, Spock = Kirk's family, basically.
>
> It's clearly not a "brothers-in-arms" thing, it's a Love Makes A Family
> thing.
>
> That's what I call NOT SUBTLE. But is it canon? Why, yes, it is.
>
> Discuss.

So, we have yet more canon proof that Kirk wasn't bending Spock over the
table. Brothers don't bone each other.

Nice of you to admit it.

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Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20421 ]

So, 24 April 2005 07:04

ToolPackinMama

whodunit wrote:
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>> So, at the end, Kirk's all "I lost a brother once... luckily I got him
>> back".
>>
>> At this point we realize he's speaking of Spock, not "Sam".
>>
>> McCoy's all, "I thought you said people like us don't have families."
>>
>> And Kirk's all, "I was wrong."
>>
>> So, Spock = Kirk's family, basically.
>>
>> It's clearly not a "brothers-in-arms" thing, it's a Love Makes A
>> Family thing.
>>
>> That's what I call NOT SUBTLE. But is it canon? Why, yes, it is.
>>
>> Discuss.
>
>
> You left Bones out of the equation:
>
> Kirk=McCoy=Spock=Brothers/Family/Kin

So, Bones is - in your opinion, equal/the-same-as Kirk/Spock?

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20428 ]

So, 24 April 2005 07:15

ToolPackinMama

Ragnar wrote:

> So, we have yet more canon proof that Kirk wasn't bending Spock over the
> table.

Oh? Sez who? :)

> Brothers don't bone each other.

They don't? Got proof? :)

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20431 ]

So, 24 April 2005 09:29

Notifier Deamon

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20435 ]

So, 24 April 2005 11:03

Graham Kennedy

ToolPackinMama wrote:

> So, at the end, Kirk's all "I lost a brother once... luckily I got him
> back".
>
> At this point we realize he's speaking of Spock, not "Sam".
>
> McCoy's all, "I thought you said people like us don't have families."
>
> And Kirk's all, "I was wrong."
>
> So, Spock = Kirk's family, basically.
>
> It's clearly not a "brothers-in-arms" thing, it's a Love Makes A Family
> thing.
>
> That's what I call NOT SUBTLE. But is it canon? Why, yes, it is.
>
> Discuss.

Yes, absolutely. Kirk regards his officers as his
family - Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Scotty,
probably even Rand and Chapel, they're his brothers
and sisters.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20438 ]

So, 24 April 2005 13:18

whodunit

ToolPackinMama wrote:
> whodunit wrote:
>
>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>
>>> So, at the end, Kirk's all "I lost a brother once... luckily I got
>>> him back".
>>>
>>> At this point we realize he's speaking of Spock, not "Sam".
>>>
>>> McCoy's all, "I thought you said people like us don't have families."
>>>
>>> And Kirk's all, "I was wrong."
>>>
>>> So, Spock = Kirk's family, basically.
>>>
>>> It's clearly not a "brothers-in-arms" thing, it's a Love Makes A
>>> Family thing.
>>>
>>> That's what I call NOT SUBTLE. But is it canon? Why, yes, it is.
>>>
>>> Discuss.
>>
>>
>>
>> You left Bones out of the equation:
>>
>> Kirk=McCoy=Spock=Brothers/Family/Kin
>
>
> So, Bones is - in your opinion, equal/the-same-as Kirk/Spock?

Yes, indeedy! :-)
In fact, McCoy and Spock shared consciousnesses, so you could
say they are even closer than Spock and Kirk! :-)

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20439 ]

So, 24 April 2005 13:19

whodunit

Graham Kennedy wrote:
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>> So, at the end, Kirk's all "I lost a brother once... luckily I got him
>> back".
>>
>> At this point we realize he's speaking of Spock, not "Sam".
>>
>> McCoy's all, "I thought you said people like us don't have families."
>>
>> And Kirk's all, "I was wrong."
>>
>> So, Spock = Kirk's family, basically.
>>
>> It's clearly not a "brothers-in-arms" thing, it's a Love Makes A
>> Family thing.
>>
>> That's what I call NOT SUBTLE. But is it canon? Why, yes, it is.
>>
>> Discuss.
>
>
> Yes, absolutely. Kirk regards his officers as his
> family - Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Scotty,
> probably even Rand and Chapel, they're his brothers
> and sisters.
>
And the Enterprise the one true love of his life.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20440 ]

So, 24 April 2005 13:26

Kweeg

<ent56 [at] nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fkim61l64rg7v4rqcft6bdeg293nfu40i5 [at] 4ax.com...

--
Qa ' PLONK
Kweeg

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20441 ]

So, 24 April 2005 13:27

Kweeg

"whodunit" <pillut_48 [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:SgLae.11$zu.0 [at] newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Graham Kennedy wrote:
> > ToolPackinMama wrote:
> >
> >> So, at the end, Kirk's all "I lost a brother once... luckily I got him
> >> back".
> >>
> >> At this point we realize he's speaking of Spock, not "Sam".
> >>
> >> McCoy's all, "I thought you said people like us don't have families."
> >>
> >> And Kirk's all, "I was wrong."
> >>
> >> So, Spock = Kirk's family, basically.
> >>
> >> It's clearly not a "brothers-in-arms" thing, it's a Love Makes A
> >> Family thing.
> >>
> >> That's what I call NOT SUBTLE. But is it canon? Why, yes, it is.
> >>
> >> Discuss.
> >
> >
> > Yes, absolutely. Kirk regards his officers as his
> > family - Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Scotty,
> > probably even Rand and Chapel, they're his brothers
> > and sisters.
> >
> And the Enterprise the one true love of his life.

Indeed. Admitted by JTK on several occasions.

--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20445 ]

So, 24 April 2005 14:42

Graham Kennedy

whodunit wrote:
> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>
>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>
>>> So, at the end, Kirk's all "I lost a brother once... luckily I got
>>> him back".
>>>
>>> At this point we realize he's speaking of Spock, not "Sam".
>>>
>>> McCoy's all, "I thought you said people like us don't have families."
>>>
>>> And Kirk's all, "I was wrong."
>>>
>>> So, Spock = Kirk's family, basically.
>>>
>>> It's clearly not a "brothers-in-arms" thing, it's a Love Makes A
>>> Family thing.
>>>
>>> That's what I call NOT SUBTLE. But is it canon? Why, yes, it is.
>>>
>>> Discuss.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, absolutely. Kirk regards his officers as his
>> family - Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Scotty,
>> probably even Rand and Chapel, they're his brothers
>> and sisters.
>>
> And the Enterprise the one true love of his life.

Yes indeed. For all that he might have fantasised about
Antonia or Ruth or any one of his other girlfriends,
he always went back to the ship in the end.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20447 ]

So, 24 April 2005 15:23

ToolPackinMama

Graham Kennedy wrote:
> whodunit wrote:
>
>> And the Enterprise the one true love of his life.
>
>
> Yes indeed. For all that he might have fantasised about
> Antonia or Ruth or any one of his other girlfriends,
> he always went back to the ship in the end.
>

Kirk Captained more than one version of the Enterprise, and the ship was
completely lost in ST3. In ST4, they spent the whole movie running
around in a Klingon ship.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20448 ]

So, 24 April 2005 15:24

ToolPackinMama

Kweeg wrote:
> "whodunit" <pillut_48 [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:SgLae.11$zu.0 [at] newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...

>>
>>And the Enterprise the one true love of his life.
>
>
> Indeed. Admitted by JTK on several occasions.
>

Oh? Name one occasion.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20449 ]

So, 24 April 2005 15:26

ToolPackinMama

whodunit wrote:
> ToolPackinMama wrote:

>> So, Bones is - in your opinion, equal/the-same-as Kirk/Spock?
>
>
> Yes, indeedy! :-)
> In fact, McCoy and Spock shared consciousnesses, so you could
> say they are even closer than Spock and Kirk! :-)

But Spock pulled a similar trick with Nurse Chapel in Return To
Tomorrow. Does that mean that in your mind Chapel actually was closer
to Spock than Kirk?

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20450 ]

So, 24 April 2005 15:28

ToolPackinMama

Graham Kennedy wrote:
>
> Yes, absolutely. Kirk regards his officers as his
> family - Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Scotty,
> probably even Rand and Chapel, they're his brothers
> and sisters.

Hmm. I can't think of an occasion when Kirk called either Chaper or
Uhura a sister. Can you? If so, please tell me when that occurred.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20451 ]

So, 24 April 2005 15:32

ToolPackinMama

Ragnar wrote:

> Brothers don't bone each other.

Does the term T'hy'la strike a familiar note? It's a word Roddenberry
introduced in TMP novel. It's a Vulcan word that means
friend/brother/lover. It's a word Spock used in reference to Kirk.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20452 ]

So, 24 April 2005 15:58

Graham Kennedy

ToolPackinMama wrote:

> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>
>> whodunit wrote:
>>
>>> And the Enterprise the one true love of his life.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes indeed. For all that he might have fantasised about
>> Antonia or Ruth or any one of his other girlfriends,
>> he always went back to the ship in the end.
>>
>
> Kirk Captained more than one version of the Enterprise, and the ship was
> completely lost in ST3.

Indeed, I'll never forget seeing him standing on the Genesis
planet, watching the remains of the ship he loved so much
streaking through the atmosphere.

"My God Bones, what have I done?"
"What you had to do. What you always do. Turned death into
a fighting chance to live."

> In ST4, they spent the whole movie running
> around in a Klingon ship.

And they get a new Enterprise. A nice moment in ST 5 comes
when Kirk moans that he misses his old chair. He could have
meant the one from the refitted Enterprise in ST 1-3, but
I like to think that he meant that big clunky one from TOS
with all the cool switches on the arms. Now that was a
real man's chair!

I wonder if he ever felt the same way about the E-A as he
did about his old ship? Scotty said in Relics that the
TOS Enterprise was the only one he ever really missed.
"No bloody A, B, C or D" indeed! I bet Sulu had a soft
spot for the old girl even after he had a ship of his own.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20453 ]

So, 24 April 2005 16:00

Graham Kennedy

ToolPackinMama wrote:

> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, absolutely. Kirk regards his officers as his
>> family - Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Scotty,
>> probably even Rand and Chapel, they're his brothers
>> and sisters.
>
>
> Hmm. I can't think of an occasion when Kirk called either Chaper or
> Uhura a sister. Can you? If so, please tell me when that occurred.

Not offhand, no. But look at how quickly Uhura was
willing to ditch her entire career for Spock in ST2,
and the familiar moments they shared in TOS. Definitely
a family feeling there I'd say.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20455 ]

So, 24 April 2005 16:02

Graham Kennedy

Graham Kennedy wrote:

> willing to ditch her entire career for Spock in ST2,

Oops, ST3...

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20471 ]

So, 24 April 2005 19:44

Ragnar

ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Ragnar wrote:
>
> > Brothers don't bone each other.
>
> Does the term T'hy'la strike a familiar note? It's a word Roddenberry
> introduced in TMP novel. It's a Vulcan word that means
> friend/brother/lover. It's a word Spock used in reference to Kirk.

And Aloha means about a hundred things in Hawaiian. Using it in
conversation does not imply that you mean all 100 things at the same
time. Its all in the context of the conversation.

In this case, Kirk clearly said he lost a brother, not a lover. Once
again Laura lets her delusion twist the facts.

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Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20474 ]

So, 24 April 2005 19:49

ToolPackinMama

Graham Kennedy wrote:

> I wonder if he ever felt the same way about the E-A as he
> did about his old ship? Scotty said in Relics that the
> TOS Enterprise was the only one he ever really missed.
> "No bloody A, B, C or D" indeed! I bet Sulu had a soft
> spot for the old girl even after he had a ship of his own.

::shrug:: I feel constrained to point out that Kirk wouldn't risk his
own life and the lives of his crew-people just to save the ship. That
ship wasn't THAT important.

Also, Kirk doesn't pamper the ship. He's practically abusive to it. He
uses it like it's a unfeeling thing, which is what it is.

Scotty is the only one who actually shows affection to the ship, IMHO.
He's clearly emotionally attached to it.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20476 ]

So, 24 April 2005 19:51

ToolPackinMama

Graham Kennedy wrote:
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, absolutely. Kirk regards his officers as his
>>> family - Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Scotty,
>>> probably even Rand and Chapel, they're his brothers
>>> and sisters.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hmm. I can't think of an occasion when Kirk called either Chaper or
>> Uhura a sister. Can you? If so, please tell me when that occurred.
>
>
> Not offhand, no.

No, neither can I. I really can't think of a reason to imagine that
Kirk thinks of Uhura as a sister, but she's sure as hell not his lover.

They like and trust each other, they are devoted comrades, but that's
about it. She never presumes to call her Captain "Jim", does she? He
never takes her camping or anything.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20478 ]

So, 24 April 2005 20:00

ToolPackinMama

Ragnar wrote:
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>> Ragnar wrote:
>>
>> > Brothers don't bone each other.
>>
>> Does the term T'hy'la strike a familiar note? It's a word Roddenberry
>> introduced in TMP novel. It's a Vulcan word that means
>> friend/brother/lover. It's a word Spock used in reference to Kirk.
>
>
> And Aloha means about a hundred things in Hawaiian.

Yes, well, the words "friend" and "brother" can mean many things, too.
Then there's the Vulcan word T'hy'la, which means friend/brother/lover.
That's what Spock calls Kirk in TMP novel. Roddenberry wrote that, FYI.

Here's what else GR had to say about the Kirk/Spock relationship, in an
interview:

[Interviewer (speaking of Kirk and Spock)]: "I know you've told us that
you designed that relationship as 'Two halves which come together to
make a whole'. Is that how you still see it?"

[Gene Roddenberry] "Oh yes. As I've said, I definately designed it as a
love relationship... Absolutely."

[From: Shatner: Where No Man...: The Authorized Biography of William
Shatner (Chapter 7 - Page 145)]

Are "brothers" "two halves which come together to make a whole"? That's
not ususally how people define "brother". It sounds more like how one
might define a marriage.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20480 ]

So, 24 April 2005 20:46

Kweeg

"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:116n7ubk1enf35b [at] news.supernews.com...
> Ragnar wrote:
>
> > Brothers don't bone each other.
>
> Does the term T'hy'la strike a familiar note? It's a word Roddenberry
> introduced in TMP novel. It's a Vulcan word that means
> friend/brother/lover. It's a word Spock used in reference to Kirk.

Nice, but non-canon.

--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20483 ]

So, 24 April 2005 21:16

Graham Kennedy

ToolPackinMama wrote:

> Ragnar wrote:
>
>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>
>>> Ragnar wrote:
>>>
>>> > Brothers don't bone each other.
>>>
>>> Does the term T'hy'la strike a familiar note? It's a word
>>> Roddenberry introduced in TMP novel. It's a Vulcan word that means
>>> friend/brother/lover. It's a word Spock used in reference to Kirk.
>>
>>
>>
>> And Aloha means about a hundred things in Hawaiian.
>
>
> Yes, well, the words "friend" and "brother" can mean many things, too.
> Then there's the Vulcan word T'hy'la, which means friend/brother/lover.
> That's what Spock calls Kirk in TMP novel. Roddenberry wrote that, FYI.
>
> Here's what else GR had to say about the Kirk/Spock relationship, in an
> interview:
>
> [Interviewer (speaking of Kirk and Spock)]: "I know you've told us that
> you designed that relationship as 'Two halves which come together to
> make a whole'. Is that how you still see it?"
>
> [Gene Roddenberry] "Oh yes. As I've said, I definately designed it as a
> love relationship... Absolutely."
>
> [From: Shatner: Where No Man...: The Authorized Biography of William
> Shatner (Chapter 7 - Page 145)]
>
> Are "brothers" "two halves which come together to make a whole"? That's
> not ususally how people define "brother". It sounds more like how one
> might define a marriage.

I thought you didn't accept information from the novels?

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20484 ]

So, 24 April 2005 21:28

Graham Kennedy

ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>
>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>
>>> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, absolutely. Kirk regards his officers as his
>>>> family - Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Scotty,
>>>> probably even Rand and Chapel, they're his brothers
>>>> and sisters.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hmm. I can't think of an occasion when Kirk called either Chaper or
>>> Uhura a sister. Can you? If so, please tell me when that occurred.
>>
>>
>>
>> Not offhand, no.
>
>
> No, neither can I. I really can't think of a reason to imagine that
> Kirk thinks of Uhura as a sister, but she's sure as hell not his lover.

<shrug> no way to know that. Who knows what they got up to
on all those nights we weren't there.

> They like and trust each other, they are devoted comrades, but that's
> about it. She never presumes to call her Captain "Jim", does she? He
> never takes her camping or anything.

Never been camping with my brother either.

I think the sense of family extends to all the main players.
It's evident from their actions in ST3 and 4. Most especially
in the stealing the Enterprise scene when Kirk tells everybody
only he and Bones need to go through with it and everybody
politely declines to leave. And Uhura gets her moment earlier
on in the transporter room.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20486 ]

So, 24 April 2005 21:47

Graham Kennedy

ToolPackinMama wrote:

> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>
>> I wonder if he ever felt the same way about the E-A as he
>> did about his old ship? Scotty said in Relics that the
>> TOS Enterprise was the only one he ever really missed.
>> "No bloody A, B, C or D" indeed! I bet Sulu had a soft
>> spot for the old girl even after he had a ship of his own.
>
>
> ::shrug:: I feel constrained to point out that Kirk wouldn't risk his
> own life and the lives of his crew-people just to save the ship. That
> ship wasn't THAT important.

On what do you base that? He has stated the opposite at least
a couple of times.

Kirk : "Get the Enterprise out of the danger zone. The landing
party is expendable. The Enterprise isn't."

-The Paradise Syndrome.

Kirk : "Keep those screens up. Worry about us when the ship is safe."

-Arena

True he sacrifices the ship in ST III, but it's not like he
just discards it or anything. He had no way to save it and
only one thing left to do.

> Also, Kirk doesn't pamper the ship. He's practically abusive to it. He
> uses it like it's a unfeeling thing, which is what it is.

I don't see it that way. He *uses* the ship, but he doesn't
abuse it. It's like a guy with a sports car. He loves it,
but that doesn't stop him putting his floot to the floor and
thrashing the engine for all he can to win a race.

> Scotty is the only one who actually shows affection to the ship, IMHO.
> He's clearly emotionally attached to it.

Oh yes, Scotty loves the ship as much as Kirk does. Maybe
even a little bit more.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20488 ]

So, 24 April 2005 22:20

Kweeg

"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:116n7fr7084to6c [at] news.supernews.com...
> Kweeg wrote:
> > "whodunit" <pillut_48 [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> > news:SgLae.11$zu.0 [at] newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> >>
> >>And the Enterprise the one true love of his life.
> >
> >
> > Indeed. Admitted by JTK on several occasions.
> >
>
> Oh? Name one occasion.

Kirk: If I get my hands on the headquarters genius that assigned me a female
yeoman...
McCoy: What's the matter, Jim, don't you trust yourself?
Kirk: I've already got a female to worry about. Her name is Enterprise.
The Corbomite Manoever

--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20513 ]

Mo, 25 April 2005 02:47

Ragnar

Graham Kennedy wrote:
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>> Ragnar wrote:
>>
>>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ragnar wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Brothers don't bone each other.
>>>>
>>>> Does the term T'hy'la strike a familiar note? It's a word
>>>> Roddenberry introduced in TMP novel. It's a Vulcan word that means
>>>> friend/brother/lover. It's a word Spock used in reference to Kirk.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And Aloha means about a hundred things in Hawaiian.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, well, the words "friend" and "brother" can mean many things, too.
>> Then there's the Vulcan word T'hy'la, which means
>> friend/brother/lover. That's what Spock calls Kirk in TMP novel.
>> Roddenberry wrote that, FYI.
>>
>> Here's what else GR had to say about the Kirk/Spock relationship, in
>> an interview:
>>
>> [Interviewer (speaking of Kirk and Spock)]: "I know you've told us
>> that you designed that relationship as 'Two halves which come together
>> to make a whole'. Is that how you still see it?"
>>
>> [Gene Roddenberry] "Oh yes. As I've said, I definately designed it as
>> a love relationship... Absolutely."
>>
>> [From: Shatner: Where No Man...: The Authorized Biography of William
>> Shatner (Chapter 7 - Page 145)]
>>
>> Are "brothers" "two halves which come together to make a whole"?
>> That's not ususally how people define "brother". It sounds more like
>> how one might define a marriage.
>
>
> I thought you didn't accept information from the novels?
>

She accepts what suits her delusions.

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20556 ]

Mo, 25 April 2005 13:19

whodunit

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #20557 ]

Mo, 25 April 2005 13:21

whodunit

ToolPackinMama wrote:
> whodunit wrote:
>
>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>
>>> So, Bones is - in your opinion, equal/the-same-as Kirk/Spock?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, indeedy! :-)
>> In fact, McCoy and Spock shared consciousnesses, so you could
>> say they are even closer than Spock and Kirk! :-)
>
>
> But Spock pulled a similar trick with Nurse Chapel in Return To
> Tomorrow. Does that mean that in your mind Chapel actually was closer
> to Spock than Kirk?

I think they will always share a closeness in some ways, but they
only shared consciousnesses for a short time, and they didn't have the
intense friendship to begin with... With McCoy, they shared for
weeks/months, wasn't it? So much more intimacy involved there. Plus
dealing with the grief of Spock's 'death' and learning he was still
alive cemented that friendship even deeper, IMO.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock [message #22061 ]

Mo, 25 April 2005 09:13

Poindexter Fortran

To: Graham Kennedy
-=> Graham Kennedy wrote to alt.tv.star-trek.tos,alt. <=-

GK> Kirk : "Get the Enterprise out of the danger zone. The landing
GK> party is expendable. The Enterprise isn't."

The enterprise also had some 415 other people on it. IMO, that's what Kirk
was referring to.

ÚÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂ¿
³³poindexter FORTRAN : poindexter [at] bbs.kataan.org ³³
³³realitycheckBBS! : http, telnet: bbs.kataan.org: fido 1:218/700 ³³
ÀÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÙ

--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.46
--- Synchronet 3.12a-Win32 NewsLink 1.76
realitycheckBBS -- telnet://bbs.kataan.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #22063 ]

Mo, 25 April 2005 16:33

Graham Kennedy

Ragnar wrote:

>> I thought you didn't accept information from the novels?
>>
>
> She accepts what suits her delusions.

Doesn't everybody? :-)

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock [message #22064 ]

Mo, 25 April 2005 16:35

Graham Kennedy

Poindexter Fortran wrote:

> To: Graham Kennedy
> -=> Graham Kennedy wrote to alt.tv.star-trek.tos,alt. <=-
>
> GK> Kirk : "Get the Enterprise out of the danger zone. The landing
> GK> party is expendable. The Enterprise isn't."
>
> The enterprise also had some 415 other people on it. IMO, that's what Kirk
> was referring to.

That's not what he said. He didn't say "The landing party is
expendable. The CREW isn't." He said the ship wasn't, both
times.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #22120 ]

Di, 26 April 2005 00:39

sdlitvin

Graham Kennedy wrote:

> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>
>> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>>
>>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>>
>>>> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, absolutely. Kirk regards his officers as his
>>>>> family - Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Scotty,
>>>>> probably even Rand and Chapel, they're his brothers
>>>>> and sisters.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hmm. I can't think of an occasion when Kirk called either Chaper or
>>>> Uhura a sister. Can you? If so, please tell me when that occurred.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not offhand, no.
>>
>>
>>
>> No, neither can I. I really can't think of a reason to imagine that
>> Kirk thinks of Uhura as a sister, but she's sure as hell not his lover.
>
>
> <shrug> no way to know that. Who knows what they got up to
> on all those nights we weren't there.
>
>> They like and trust each other, they are devoted comrades, but that's
>> about it. She never presumes to call her Captain "Jim", does she? He
>> never takes her camping or anything.
>
>
> Never been camping with my brother either.
>
> I think the sense of family extends to all the main players.
> It's evident from their actions in ST3 and 4. Most especially
> in the stealing the Enterprise scene when Kirk tells everybody
> only he and Bones need to go through with it and everybody
> politely declines to leave. And Uhura gets her moment earlier
> on in the transporter room.

And in ST3, in the scene in Kirk's apartment with Uhura and Chekov, Kirk
proposes a toast "to absent friends." Friends, not shipmates. He
really did get to consider the senior members of his crew as friends.
Then Chekov asks Kirk "Will we get another ship?" They obviously
started thinking of each other as a team too.

--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net

Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #22121 ]

Di, 26 April 2005 00:40

sdlitvin

ToolPackinMama wrote:

> Ragnar wrote:
>
> > Brothers don't bone each other.
>
> Does the term T'hy'la strike a familiar note? It's a word Roddenberry
> introduced in TMP novel. It's a Vulcan word that means
> friend/brother/lover. It's a word Spock used in reference to Kirk.

And somehow you left out Kirk's statement from that TMP novel that he is
*NOT* romantically involved with Spock, because, he jokes, "I would
never take a lover who is in heat only once in seven years."

--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net

Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #22122 ]

Di, 26 April 2005 00:45

Graham Kennedy

Steven L. wrote:

>
>
> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>
>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>
>>> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>>>
>>>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, absolutely. Kirk regards his officers as his
>>>>>> family - Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Scotty,
>>>>>> probably even Rand and Chapel, they're his brothers
>>>>>> and sisters.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm. I can't think of an occasion when Kirk called either Chaper or
>>>>> Uhura a sister. Can you? If so, please tell me when that occurred.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not offhand, no.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No, neither can I. I really can't think of a reason to imagine that
>>> Kirk thinks of Uhura as a sister, but she's sure as hell not his lover.
>>
>>
>>
>> <shrug> no way to know that. Who knows what they got up to
>> on all those nights we weren't there.
>>
>>> They like and trust each other, they are devoted comrades, but that's
>>> about it. She never presumes to call her Captain "Jim", does she?
>>> He never takes her camping or anything.
>>
>>
>>
>> Never been camping with my brother either.
>>
>> I think the sense of family extends to all the main players.
>> It's evident from their actions in ST3 and 4. Most especially
>> in the stealing the Enterprise scene when Kirk tells everybody
>> only he and Bones need to go through with it and everybody
>> politely declines to leave. And Uhura gets her moment earlier
>> on in the transporter room.
>
>
> And in ST3, in the scene in Kirk's apartment with Uhura and Chekov, Kirk
> proposes a toast "to absent friends." Friends, not shipmates. He
> really did get to consider the senior members of his crew as friends.
> Then Chekov asks Kirk "Will we get another ship?" They obviously
> started thinking of each other as a team too.

Indeed. And remember Sulu in Flashback :

Sulu : You'll find that more happens on the bridge of a starship
than just carrying out orders and observing regulations.
There is a sense of loyalty to the men and women you
serve with. A sense of family. Those two men on trial -
I served with them for a long time. I owe them my life
a dozen times over, and right now they're in trouble,
and I'm going to help them. Let the regulations be damned.

A sense of family.

--
Graham Kennedy

Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #22126 ]

Di, 26 April 2005 01:11

Kweeg

"Steven L." <sdlitvin [at] earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:8kebe.13425$lP1.10039 [at] newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> And in ST3, in the scene in Kirk's apartment with Uhura and Chekov, Kirk
> proposes a toast "to absent friends." Friends, not shipmates. He
> really did get to consider the senior members of his crew as friends.
> Then Chekov asks Kirk "Will we get another ship?" They obviously
> started thinking of each other as a team too.

Could also have been a Sunday, and Jim was proposing the traditional Naval
toast of the day.....
{{;-/>
Sunday - Absent friends.

Monday - Our ships at sea.
Tuesday - Our men.
Wednesday - Ourselves (as no-one else is likely to concern themselves with
our welfare).
Thursday - A bloody war or a sickly season.
Friday - A willing foe and sea room.
Saturday - Sweethearts and wives (may they never meet).

--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath

Re: ST5: Kirk and Spock = family [message #22142 ]

Di, 26 April 2005 03:21

whodunit

Steven L. wrote:
>
>
> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>
>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>
>>> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>>>
>>>> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Graham Kennedy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, absolutely. Kirk regards his officers as his
>>>>>> family - Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Scotty,
>>>>>> probably even Rand and Chapel, they're his brothers
>>>>>> and sisters.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm. I can't think of an occasion when Kirk called either Chaper or
>>>>> Uhura a sister. Can you? If so, please tell me when that occurred.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not offhand, no.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No, neither can I. I really can't think of a reason to imagine that
>>> Kirk thinks of Uhura as a sister, but she's sure as hell not his lover.
>>
>>
>>
>> <shrug> no way to know that. Who knows what they got up to
>> on all those nights we weren't there.
>>
>>> They like and trust each other, they are devoted comrades, but that's
>>> about it. She never presumes to call her Captain "Jim", does she?
>>> He never takes her camping or anything.
>>
>>
>>
>> Never been camping with my brother either.
>>
>> I think the sense of family extends to all the main players.
>> It's evident from their actions in ST3 and 4. Most especially
>> in the stealing the Enterprise scene when Kirk tells everybody
>> only he and Bones need to go through with it and everybody
>> politely declines to leave. And Uhura gets her moment earlier
>> on in the transporter room.
>
>
> And in ST3, in the scene in Kirk's apartment with Uhura and Chekov, Kirk
> proposes a toast "to absent friends." Friends, not shipmates. He
> really did get to consider the senior members of his crew as friends.
> Then Chekov asks Kirk "Will we get another ship?" They obviously
> started thinking of each other as a team too.
>
>
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for
his friends." John 15:13 KJV

This about sums it up. (Oh, and it's lay down *for*, not *with*,
biblically, I mean). ;-)

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