Biggest plot hole

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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Biggest plot hole

Biggest plot hole [message #253129]

So, 23 April 2006 16:13

Ken

We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].

Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but the
majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.

Ken

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253138 ]

So, 23 April 2006 17:18

Froggy

"Here in Minnesota" <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kYL2g.1883$Ih6.357 [at] newsfe07.phx...
> We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>
> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but
> the majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>
> Ken
>

Ok, this is a bit of a stretch but here goes, maybe the wizards may be the
starters of fashion trends? Like say, Grunge, a wizard thought this was a
way muggles dressed and after he/she dressed that way, a few weeks later
started to see the muggles dress the same? <shrugs> Who knows Wizard
Fashionistas! lol JAT!
--
~Froggy~
-------------------------

Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions.
Small people always do that, but the really
great make you feel that you, too, can become great.

~Mark Twain~

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253142 ]

So, 23 April 2006 17:52

BaJoRi

"Here in Minnesota" <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kYL2g.1883$Ih6.357 [at] newsfe07.phx...
> We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>
> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but
> the majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>
> Ken
>

Well, maybe, like London and Diagon Alley, wizards seem to gravitate towards
one another, and do not spend much time around muggles. Remember, it is
normally OLDER wizards and witches, and purebloods at that (who wouldnt
truck with muggles) who have those issues, not the younger ones.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253148 ]

So, 23 April 2006 22:13

pinkrose_blossom99

i think that's because they never really feel the need to interact with
muggles or learn about them unless they were taking muggle studies in
school. also, some people like the malfoy's and such might feel that
muggles are below them and only needed for convenience so they don't
even bother with learning about their ways. these are just my opinions
though. i could be totally wrong, but that's for you to decide i guess.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253149 ]

So, 23 April 2006 22:14

sjmcarter

Slightly OT: You know, that's a realy great point. Hogsmead is
supposedly the only all-wizarding community in the whole of Britain,
yet it doesn't seem like most people actually live there. IIRC, JKR
once remarked that there was something like 3000 wizards in
Britain....with numbers that small, you'd think all but a handful would
gravitate towards one another. Of course, this is assuming that JKR's
answer has any merit, and we all know how accurate her maths is.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253163 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 00:52

pooter

[sjmcarter [at] gmail.com] said
> Slightly OT: You know, that's a realy great point. Hogsmead is
> supposedly the only all-wizarding community in the whole of Britain,
> yet it doesn't seem like most people actually live there. IIRC, JKR
> once remarked that there was something like 3000 wizards in
> Britain....with numbers that small, you'd think all but a handful would
> gravitate towards one another. Of course, this is assuming that JKR's
> answer has any merit, and we all know how accurate her maths is.
>
>

I'd have though here maths on this one would be 100% as the figure of
3000 is one she has made up in her head.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253169 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 01:56

Alex Clark

Here in Minnesota wrote:
> We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>
> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but the

Actually, it doesn't mean that. It could mean that the minority who do
not live in Hogsmeade do not live in any all-Wizarding settlement.
AFAICT there could be 2,500 in Hogsmeade and 1,500 elsewhere in
Britain. And some hundreds or so at Hogwarts.

> majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.

It seems like many of those who live outside of Hogsmeade aren't out
among the Muggles very often. The can visit friends and (most of them,
except for Muggle-borns) family by the Floo network, do much of their
shopping at Hogsmeade and Diagon Alley, etc. You could live at the
Leaky Cauldron, right beside a Muggle street in London, and never see a
Muggle except those who were visiting their Wizarding relatives.

--
Alex Clark

Marvel motor dildo (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253172 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 03:05

sjmcarter

JKR on occassion will give out a number that directly contradicts other
facts (established or inplied) within the series. She even admits
this, like the number of students given at Hogwarts by JKR was 1000,
but a careful reading of the book suggests otherwise, and she
acknowldged it may have been a bad number.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253173 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 03:43

Ken

Alex Clark wrote:

> It seems like many of those who live outside of Hogsmeade aren't out
> among the Muggles very often. The can visit friends and (most of them,
> except for Muggle-borns) family by the Floo network, do much of their
> shopping at Hogsmeade and Diagon Alley, etc. You could live at the
> Leaky Cauldron, right beside a Muggle street in London, and never see
> a Muggle except those who were visiting their Wizarding relatives.

It does somewhat beg the question. Why live in a muggle community?

I agree it is possible. I think Rowling *greatly exaggerates* the ignorant
of wizards knowledge of muggles for a comic effect. Think about it... Mr
Weasley has spent the last 20 plus years spending 40 hours a week dealing
with muggles [or alot].... I think if I spent 5 hours a week for a summer
dealing with wizards I would know more about wizards than Mr Weasley does
about muggles.

I enjoy it but still think it's the biggest "plot hole".

Ken

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253174 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 04:04

scenario_dave

Here in Minnesota wrote:
> We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>
> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but the
> majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>
> Ken

Hogsmead is the only pure wizarding village. That doesn't stop there
from being mostly wizard neighborhoods in big cities. Harry has a
squib neighbor near the Dursleys house.

Fred and George apporated to go from room to room in the house once
they learned how to do it. Unless their walking to the Wizard who
lives next door, why should they have to see any Muggles? They can
apporate, take the flue network, or a portkey if they want to get
anywhere. On the rare occasions we've seen older wizards out of
Hogswort they didn't walk or use brooms. DD and Mcgonical apporated to
the Dursley's house in the first book, the whole clan used port keys in
the fourth book, they've used the night bus in several books. The only
time I can recall older wizards and witches using brooms is when the
order took harry to school. When Mr. Weasley took Harry to work with
him, he told Harry that he always apporated to work.

Come to think of it, how do witches and wizards stop uninvited guests.
I bet a lot of them have spells to stop anyone who doesn't live there
form aporating into their houses. I bet a lot of them have some kind
of hidden area like a screened in front porch, or a garden area where
people could apporate into and then ring the doorbell. I bet they
don't play a lot of phone tag with the flue network.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253175 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 04:03

Mishagam

sjmcarter [at] gmail.com wrote:
> Slightly OT: You know, that's a realy great point. Hogsmead is
> supposedly the only all-wizarding community in the whole of Britain,
> yet it doesn't seem like most people actually live there. IIRC, JKR
> once remarked that there was something like 3000 wizards in
> Britain....with numbers that small, you'd think all but a handful would
> gravitate towards one another. Of course, this is assuming that JKR's
> answer has any merit, and we all know how accurate her maths is.
>
Yes, I also doubt that 3000 wizards would be enough, for example, to
fill Ministry of Magic (12 stories office) + Hospital (6 stories
Hospital), Quidith Stadium as it was described in GoF (100 thousand
visitors - 33 time British wisard population ?????) (there was deficit
of tickets - but you can easily issue 3000 tickets even for very small
stadium), to fill trading street in Diagon Alley.
If you think of it, small village (3000 people) wouldn't have 12 story
ministry of 5 story hospital, they would have small (1 story, 20 people)
administrative building and small one story (50 patients at most) Hospital.
But of course you cannot expect realistic economics from this story.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253177 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 04:27

scenario_dave

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253179 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 06:03

sjmcarter

wondered that as well. I mean, I suppose it's possible some cottages
remain from a bygone area when constructing a homestead wasn't full of
bureacracy, and passed down for generation in a wizarding line. But
like you said, taxes. If it's one thing the government wants, it's the
money due them. Also, cloaking spells may work for muggles in the
immediate area, but in an area of satellite imaging, that's
unreasonable. I can go to google maps and find an aerial view just
about any home or building (in industrialzed countries, at least). You
can't fool high tech equipment in inner space. But of course, this is
a fictional series about a boy wizard--such issues are signs of
hyper-obsessive fans, not neccessarily a lack on JKR's part :-)

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253180 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 06:11

nystulc

Here in Minnesota wrote:
> We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>
> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but the
> majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.

Because not knowing how to dress is in part a symptom of having an
unconventional mind -- a mind that is not oriented on mundane things --
a mind that can do magic.

It helps if you think of wizards as different from muggles rather than
inherently superior to them. There is much that we take for granted
that requires investment of intelligence and mental energy. Logically,
being able to do things other's cannot often involves not being able to
do things that others can.

The same phenomenon is apparent among unconventional minds in the real
world -- including those of supposedly "highly intelligent" people.
Someone once joked that NASA is the "largest sheltered workshop in the
world" (a phrase that refers to vocational programs for the autistic or
mentally retarded). The joke is that NASA scientists are really quite
stupid and "out of it" in things not relating to science. Indeed, it
is now suspected that the upsurge of autism is a result of the modern
world rewarding nerdy braniacs, such that they are more likely to
reproduce successfully, leading occasionally to unfortunate
concentrations of their recessive traits. Albert Einstein was
oblivious to the state of his hair; his son was a "schizophrenic."

This helps explain a question asked in another thread -- why the
"superior" wizards don't just replace and whipe out the muggles. Well,
we have already seen the result when wizards reproduce only among
themselves -- it eventually leads to madness and degradation of powers.
Wizards are not a separate superior race at all, but merely a
recessive, valuable, specialized, but somewhat costly trait that
occasionally manifests itself within general humanity.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253181 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 06:56

Toon

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253184 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 07:54

Christian Winter

sjmcarter [at] gmail.com wrote:
> wondered that as well. I mean, I suppose it's possible some cottages
> remain from a bygone area when constructing a homestead wasn't full of
> bureacracy, and passed down for generation in a wizarding line. But
> like you said, taxes. If it's one thing the government wants, it's the
> money due them. Also, cloaking spells may work for muggles in the
> immediate area, but in an area of satellite imaging, that's
> unreasonable.

You never wondered what that greyed-out parts in the google earth
close-up views were?

> I can go to google maps and find an aerial view just
> about any home or building (in industrialzed countries, at least).

Still sure? Maybe the confundus charm is working as expected ;-)

> You
> can't fool high tech equipment in inner space. But of course, this is
> a fictional series about a boy wizard--such issues are signs of
> hyper-obsessive fans, not neccessarily a lack on JKR's part :-)

I agree, but especially for this question it may be possible to
come up with a whole hand full of reasonable explanations.

-Chris

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253188 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 09:45

Toon

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:18:34 GMT, "Froggy" <shelbel007_2000 [at] yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>"Here in Minnesota" <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:kYL2g.1883$Ih6.357 [at] newsfe07.phx...
>> We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>>
>> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
>> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but
>> the majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>
>Ok, this is a bit of a stretch but here goes, maybe the wizards may be the
>starters of fashion trends? Like say, Grunge, a wizard thought this was a
>way muggles dressed and after he/she dressed that way, a few weeks later
>started to see the muggles dress the same? <shrugs> Who knows Wizard
>Fashionistas! lol JAT!

Maybe the old dude at the QWC started cross dressing in Muggles.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253192 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 09:52

dsueme

Here in Minnesota wrote:

> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but the
> majority of the wizards seem to be ig[on]a[r]nt of how muggles dress etc.

Dude (or dudette, as appropriate):

This is _real_ simple, and JKR hinted at it in the very first book, the
one aimed at 11 year old readers...

wizards have a talent for making themselves invisible to "muggles".

This is why the day Harry's parents died and "Voldy" was defeated (or
not) was such a shock to Vernon Dursley. The wizards who had been
hiding in plain sight got so delerious with joy that they briefly
forgot the masquerade. Thus Vernon noticed one wearing funny clothes
when he went out for lunch.

Dude (or dudette), I feel sorry for you. If you are reading these
books and not noticing these basic concepts - what is the point of
living?

Well, I suppose - I have three tiny fingerling catfish in a bowl on my
bookcase and they are swimming around like maniacs. Apparantly my
homemade catfish food is doing reasonably well. If these little guys
get much more energetic I'll baracade my bedroom door. They seem to
find some point to living despite no demonstrated understanding of
Harry Potter. So maybe I was wrong - there is a point to living for
some who have no Harry Potter concepts.

Dave

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253214 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 15:22

John Kelly

In article <kYL2g.1883$Ih6.357 [at] newsfe07.phx>,
neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com says...
> We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>
> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but the
> majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.

There are so many plot holes in the books that it can be annoying. The
fact that 4 young wizards can design something as complex as the
marauders map and no-one else has anything like it. How many times would
that have been useful - Dumbledore noticing on his marauders map that
barty Crouch was in his study when he could see mad eye moody in front
of him for instance would have been a bit of a giveaway, or Peter
Pettigrew (why didn't the twins ever notice him when they had the map).

I still enjoy the books but suspect the many plot holes will make them
less readable in the future.

--
John Kelly

Remove dimspam if replying by mail

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253215 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 16:08

paryan

sjmcarter [at] gmail.com wrote:

But of course, this is
> a fictional series about a boy wizard--such issues are signs of
> hyper-obsessive fans, not neccessarily a lack on JKR's part :-)

I agree that we fans can get a bit obsessive, but I also believe that
JKR is not a good world (or background) builder for her stories, which
leads to the various plot holes. Unlike Tolkein, who created this vast
history to LOTR, Rowling drops small "hints" here and there, or just
asks the reader to accept whatever scenario she puts forth w/o much
detailed explanation or background (ie; tolerance of abusive situations
with children - why?). The Muggle world cannot be as ignorant of the
Wizarding world as she wants us to believe. With so many Muggle-born
and/or half-blood wizards and witches, how do you keep that info secret
from the rest of the non-magic family? Would you (as the Muggle parent
of a magical child) just send your kid off to a boarding school that
you cannot visit or even find because it has been bewitched to be
hidden from Muggles? No way, not this parent. Even my son (age 8 at
the time) thought that was a bit unusual (although the idea of going
someplace where your parents can't find you did have it's merits, in
his opinion).

I like the series, and I didn't expect a pediatric LOTR-style epic, but
there are things JKR wants the reader to accept that just don't add up
(if I think about it too much). The trick, I suppose, is not to think
about it too much, but just enjoy the ride.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253223 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 17:37

scenario_dave

I really don't think its fair to compare Tolkein to anyone else. He
spent about 40 years to write one incredible book. He wrote the
equivelent of about 10 more books to create the entire world. Very few
people have the time or inclination to spend that much time to make the
perfect book.

There are a lot of loopholes in her books but many of them can be
reasonably explained and I can easily ignore the ones that cannot
because the book is otherwise well writen. The thing that I can't stand
is internal inconsistencies. For example, if she started to have people
apporate into and out of Hogsworth in the 7th book without explaining
how they are suddenly able to do it.

> I agree that we fans can get a bit obsessive, but I also believe that
> JKR is not a good world (or background) builder for her stories, which
> leads to the various plot holes. Unlike Tolkein, who created this vast
> history to LOTR, Rowling drops small "hints" here and there, or just
> asks the reader to accept whatever scenario she puts forth w/o much
> detailed explanation or background (ie; tolerance of abusive situations
> with children - why?). The Muggle world cannot be as ignorant of the
> Wizarding world as she wants us to believe. With so many Muggle-born
> and/or half-blood wizards and witches, how do you keep that info secret
> from the rest of the non-magic family? Would you (as the Muggle parent
> of a magical child) just send your kid off to a boarding school that
> you cannot visit or even find because it has been bewitched to be
> hidden from Muggles? No way, not this parent. Even my son (age 8 at
> the time) thought that was a bit unusual (although the idea of going
> someplace where your parents can't find you did have it's merits, in
> his opinion).
>

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253227 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 19:43

Jonathan Rodriguez

"Here in Minnesota" <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kYL2g.1883$Ih6.357 [at] newsfe07.phx...
> We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>
> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but
> the majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>
> Ken
>

I think another big plot hole is the rich wizards who have mansions, how do
they report income to tax collectors? I mean I am sure if the Goverment
knows theres this big mansion like the Malfoy's they would want to collect
taxes on it don't you think?

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253228 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 20:21

pooter

[sjmcarter [at] gmail.com] said
> JKR on occassion will give out a number that directly contradicts other
> facts (established or inplied) within the series. She even admits
> this, like the number of students given at Hogwarts by JKR was 1000,
> but a careful reading of the book suggests otherwise, and she
> acknowldged it may have been a bad number.
>
>

Well, it is always difficult to remember things that are not true. :-)

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253229 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 20:22

wizardofsnog

Mishagam <noemail [at] provider.com> wrote in
news:emW2g.2215$n13.915 [at] tornado.southeast.rr.com:

> sjmcarter [at] gmail.com wrote:
>> Slightly OT: You know, that's a realy great point. Hogsmead is
>> supposedly the only all-wizarding community in the whole of Britain,
>> yet it doesn't seem like most people actually live there. IIRC, JKR
>> once remarked that there was something like 3000 wizards in
>> Britain....with numbers that small, you'd think all but a handful
>> would gravitate towards one another. Of course, this is assuming
>> that JKR's answer has any merit, and we all know how accurate her
>> maths is.
>>
> Yes, I also doubt that 3000 wizards would be enough, for example, to
> fill Ministry of Magic (12 stories office) + Hospital (6 stories
> Hospital), Quidith Stadium as it was described in GoF (100 thousand
> visitors - 33 time British wisard population ?????) (there was deficit
> of tickets - but you can easily issue 3000 tickets even for very small
> stadium), to fill trading street in Diagon Alley.
> If you think of it, small village (3000 people) wouldn't have 12 story
> ministry of 5 story hospital, they would have small (1 story, 20
> people) administrative building and small one story (50 patients at
> most) Hospital. But of course you cannot expect realistic economics
> from this story.
>

12 stories? Does't that depend on how many rooms are on each level? Take
into account the weasly house.. If I remember the description right,
thereare but one or 2 rooms to each level of the 5 story house.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253230 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 21:05

lesliemills2002

Here in Minnesota wrote:
> We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].

> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but the
> majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.

Wizards may keep to themselves, go out only during the night, use
cloaks, or simply Apparate from one wizard spot to another.

<Speculation Alert>

While in wizard company, a wizard can use his powers freely and without
reservation, while communication with muggles is highly restricted,
since it is a Bad Thing to let unauthorized Muggles know of the
wizarding world.

Consequently, if a wizard invites muggles to his house, he'd have to
take pains to hide the Self-Sweeping Broom, the Self-Washing Dishes,
the Talking Mirror, etc to the point where he'd have to abandon magic
as anything other than a hobby if he undertakes prolonged contact with
muggles. Meanwhile, he has no such restriction in magical communities,
and can even show off his latest charms/items if he likes.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253232 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 22:03

zoltan47

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:13:35 -0500, "Here in Minnesota"
<neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

>We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>
>Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
>the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but the
>majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>
>Ken
>

It's not just that. Remember in COS Hagrid states, "Most wizards these
days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died
out." In addition, so much of what is happening is because there is so
much wizard/Muggle intermarriage that some pure-bloods fear that those
like them will disappear, Yet, with all of this intermarriage, the two
sides are almost completely ignorant of the other side.

Look at the dorm room. Ron and Neville are the only purebloods in of
the five. Seamus is half-blood so should have had some exposure to the
Muggle world. Harry and Dean were both raised in the Muggle world.
(While Dean's real father was a wizard, according to JKR's site, his
environment was purely Muggle.)

There has been so much intermarriage, so much mingling that it has
been come a major issue, but there is also so much ignorance of the
other side

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253236 ]

Mo, 24 April 2006 23:13

Thomas Madura

John Kelly wrote:

> In article <kYL2g.1883$Ih6.357 [at] newsfe07.phx>,
> neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com says...
>
>>We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>>
>>Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
>>the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but the
>>majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>
>
> There are so many plot holes in the books that it can be annoying. The
> fact that 4 young wizards can design something as complex as the
> marauders map and no-one else has anything like it. How many times would
> that have been useful - Dumbledore noticing on his marauders map that
> barty Crouch was in his study when he could see mad eye moody in front
> of him for instance would have been a bit of a giveaway, or Peter
> Pettigrew (why didn't the twins ever notice him when they had the map).
>
> I still enjoy the books but suspect the many plot holes will make them
> less readable in the future.
>

With only one book to go - a lot of the plot holes will never be filled
in -in the books. However - it is extrememly difficult to maintain an
entire world with its own rules and try for perfect continuity - just
ask the person responsible for that in a 2 hour movie.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253250 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 03:14

Matt Clara

"scenario_dave" <scenario_dave [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1145893051.647177.301520 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I really don't think its fair to compare Tolkein to anyone else. He
> spent about 40 years to write one incredible book. He wrote the
> equivelent of about 10 more books to create the entire world. Very few
> people have the time or inclination to spend that much time to make the
> perfect book.
>
> There are a lot of loopholes in her books but many of them can be
> reasonably explained and I can easily ignore the ones that cannot
> because the book is otherwise well writen. The thing that I can't stand
> is internal inconsistencies. For example, if she started to have people
> apporate into and out of Hogsworth in the 7th book without explaining
> how they are suddenly able to do it.
>
>> I agree that we fans can get a bit obsessive, but I also believe that
>> JKR is not a good world (or background) builder for her stories, which
>> leads to the various plot holes. Unlike Tolkein, who created this vast
>> history to LOTR, Rowling drops small "hints" here and there, or just
>> asks the reader to accept whatever scenario she puts forth w/o much
>> detailed explanation or background (ie; tolerance of abusive situations
>> with children - why?). The Muggle world cannot be as ignorant of the
>> Wizarding world as she wants us to believe. With so many Muggle-born
>> and/or half-blood wizards and witches, how do you keep that info secret
>> from the rest of the non-magic family? Would you (as the Muggle parent
>> of a magical child) just send your kid off to a boarding school that
>> you cannot visit or even find because it has been bewitched to be
>> hidden from Muggles? No way, not this parent. Even my son (age 8 at
>> the time) thought that was a bit unusual (although the idea of going
>> someplace where your parents can't find you did have it's merits, in
>> his opinion).
>>
>

He didn't work on it through out the whole period. In fact, he very nearly
gave up on more than one occasion, and it was C.S. Lewis, among others,
whose encouragment got him to return to his writing.

--
Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253251 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 03:18

Matt Clara

"David Sueme" <dsueme [at] comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1145865144.379461.245580 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
> Here in Minnesota wrote:
>
>> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority
>> of
>> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but
>> the
>> majority of the wizards seem to be ig[on]a[r]nt of how muggles dress etc.
>
> Dude (or dudette, as appropriate):
>
> This is _real_ simple, and JKR hinted at it in the very first book, the
> one aimed at 11 year old readers...
>
> wizards have a talent for making themselves invisible to "muggles".
>
> This is why the day Harry's parents died and "Voldy" was defeated (or
> not) was such a shock to Vernon Dursley. The wizards who had been
> hiding in plain sight got so delerious with joy that they briefly
> forgot the masquerade. Thus Vernon noticed one wearing funny clothes
> when he went out for lunch.
>
> Dude (or dudette), I feel sorry for you. If you are reading these
> books and not noticing these basic concepts - what is the point of
> living?
>
> Well, I suppose - I have three tiny fingerling catfish in a bowl on my
> bookcase and they are swimming around like maniacs. Apparantly my
> homemade catfish food is doing reasonably well. If these little guys
> get much more energetic I'll baracade my bedroom door. They seem to
> find some point to living despite no demonstrated understanding of
> Harry Potter. So maybe I was wrong - there is a point to living for
> some who have no Harry Potter concepts.
>
> Dave
>

The homemade fish food--it's crystal meth, isn't it.

--
Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253252 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 03:23

Matt Clara

"zoltan47" <zoltan47 [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fobq4254nglp2ctd0j1egb7qdiq1j5agbl [at] 4ax.com...
> On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:13:35 -0500, "Here in Minnesota"
> <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>>
>>Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
>>the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but
>>the
>>majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>>
>>Ken
>>
>
> It's not just that. Remember in COS Hagrid states, "Most wizards these
> days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died
> out." In addition, so much of what is happening is because there is so
> much wizard/Muggle intermarriage that some pure-bloods fear that those
> like them will disappear, Yet, with all of this intermarriage, the two
> sides are almost completely ignorant of the other side.
>
> Look at the dorm room. Ron and Neville are the only purebloods in of
> the five. Seamus is half-blood so should have had some exposure to the
> Muggle world. Harry and Dean were both raised in the Muggle world.
> (While Dean's real father was a wizard, according to JKR's site, his
> environment was purely Muggle.)
>
> There has been so much intermarriage, so much mingling that it has
> been come a major issue, but there is also so much ignorance of the
> other side

Hey, if God didn't want them to commingle, he wouldn't have made those
muggle girls so hot! ;-)

--
Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253253 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 05:12

Jason Lane

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:22:40 +0100, John Kelly
<john [at] hafan.freeserve.co.uk.dimspam> wrotd:

>I still enjoy the books but suspect the many plot holes will make them
>less readable in the future.

Agreed, they don't hold up to repeated reading, or listening in my
case. I love Jim Dale's readings.

Here's a few more problems:

In OotP, JKR pulls legilimancy out of the blue. How many issues in
books 1-4 could have been solved just by peering into someone's head,
like Snape did so easily when Harry used sectumsempra on Malfoy?

How could Dumbledore be so sharp that in GoF, after Krum is found KOed
and Crouch disappeared, he tells Harry not to send any owls. He KNOWS
Harry is in regular communication with Sirius. But he's CLUELESS as to
what Malfoy was doing in HBP and even wouldn't hear of it when Harry
told him?

Then there's issues that I don't know are because JKR is lacking in
skills or because she is limited by her target audience. Slytherin is
the glowing example. Children don't see shades of gray, they only
understand black and white. All Slytherin is now is a dumping ground
for the stupid or the cartoonishly evil. They could be much more
complicated and a gray area. Are they evil or just driven? Malfoy at
this point is just a punk and a brat but no threat. Hermione and Percy
are driven enough that they would be ideal Slytherins, and Percy is a
pureblood. But she didn't come up with a complicated or
non-stereotypical evil Slytherin until Slughorn.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253266 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 10:02

dsueme

Matt Clara wrote:

> The homemade fish food--it's crystal meth, isn't it.

My speed days were thirty years ago.

I briefly considered putting a few drops of Bacardi in the fishbowl to
see what happened, but decided that there is no rational reason to
believe that alky would effect the fish nervous system in any way
similar to a human nervous system, and feeding the fish rum would
simply be gratitious, senseless cruelty.

I save gratitious, senselless cruelty for Usenet.

Dave

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253267 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 10:03

Toon

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:22:40 +0100, John Kelly
<john [at] hafan.freeserve.co.uk.dimspam> wrote:

>In article <kYL2g.1883$Ih6.357 [at] newsfe07.phx>,
>neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com says...
>> We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>>
>> Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
>> the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but the
>> majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>
>There are so many plot holes in the books that it can be annoying. The
>fact that 4 young wizards can design something as complex as the
>marauders map and no-one else has anything like it. How many times would
>that have been useful - Dumbledore noticing on his marauders map that
>barty Crouch was in his study when he could see mad eye moody in front
>of him for instance would have been a bit of a giveaway, or Peter
>Pettigrew (why didn't the twins ever notice him when they had the map).
>
>I still enjoy the books but suspect the many plot holes will make them
>less readable in the future.

I'm sure DD has his own version, but student specific. And he had to
check up on Moddy, which he has no reason to do.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253268 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 10:04

Toon

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:13:41 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>John Kelly wrote:
>
>> In article <kYL2g.1883$Ih6.357 [at] newsfe07.phx>,
>> neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com says...
>>
>>>We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>>>
>>>Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
>>>the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but the
>>>majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>>
>>
>> There are so many plot holes in the books that it can be annoying. The
>> fact that 4 young wizards can design something as complex as the
>> marauders map and no-one else has anything like it. How many times would
>> that have been useful - Dumbledore noticing on his marauders map that
>> barty Crouch was in his study when he could see mad eye moody in front
>> of him for instance would have been a bit of a giveaway, or Peter
>> Pettigrew (why didn't the twins ever notice him when they had the map).
>>
>> I still enjoy the books but suspect the many plot holes will make them
>> less readable in the future.
>>
>
>
>With only one book to go - a lot of the plot holes will never be filled
>in -in the books. However - it is extrememly difficult to maintain an
>entire world with its own rules and try for perfect continuity - just
>ask the person responsible for that in a 2 hour movie.

No matter how good a writer is, some fan will find some nit picky
thing the writer never even thought about.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253269 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 10:07

Toon

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:12:53 -0700, Jason Lane <jason [at] jason.com>
wrote:

>But he's CLUELESS as to
>what Malfoy was doing in HBP and even wouldn't hear of it when Harry
>told him?

He wasn't. He knew almost exactly what was going on, and more so than
Harry did. He just didn't know that the Vanishign cabinet was a major
weak point in his defenses. Wahoo. One whole slipup.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253270 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 10:08

Toon

On 24 Apr 2006 07:08:27 -0700, "Wile-E" <paryan [at] crosslink.net> wrote:

>Even my son (age 8 at
>the time) thought that was a bit unusual (although the idea of going
>someplace where your parents can't find you did have it's merits, in
>his opinion).

Yup, what parent wouldn't tour the school? parents accompany kids to
their colleges of choice. And these are 17/18 year old. Not 11 year
olds.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253271 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 10:11

Toon

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 01:23:50 GMT, "Matt Clara" <hey.wood.y [at] buzz.off>
wrote:

>"zoltan47" <zoltan47 [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:fobq4254nglp2ctd0j1egb7qdiq1j5agbl [at] 4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:13:35 -0500, "Here in Minnesota"
>> <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>>>
>>>Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
>>>the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but
>>>the
>>>majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>>>
>>>Ken
>>>
>>
>> It's not just that. Remember in COS Hagrid states, "Most wizards these
>> days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died
>> out." In addition, so much of what is happening is because there is so
>> much wizard/Muggle intermarriage that some pure-bloods fear that those
>> like them will disappear, Yet, with all of this intermarriage, the two
>> sides are almost completely ignorant of the other side.
>>
>> Look at the dorm room. Ron and Neville are the only purebloods in of
>> the five. Seamus is half-blood so should have had some exposure to the
>> Muggle world. Harry and Dean were both raised in the Muggle world.
>> (While Dean's real father was a wizard, according to JKR's site, his
>> environment was purely Muggle.)
>>
>> There has been so much intermarriage, so much mingling that it has
>> been come a major issue, but there is also so much ignorance of the
>> other side
>
>Hey, if God didn't want them to commingle, he wouldn't have made those
>muggle girls so hot! ;-)

Or allow the MFactor to allow crossbreeding. Wizards would be
incompatible genetically with Muggles. No reproduction. It's be like
a cockroach mating with a mouse.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253273 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 10:16

dsueme

Thom Madura wrote:

it is extrememly difficult to maintain an
> entire world with its own rules and try for perfect continuity

Tolkien did it to my satisfaction. I find nothing at all in the
Hobbit/Rings bit that I believe I can justify as a contradiction,
except the problems Tolkein noted with "The Hobbit" and fixed with a
revised edition.

- just
> ask the person responsible for that in a 2 hour movie.

For the most part, William Shakespeare's plays are considered to be
plothole-free. But admittedly, his plays as written usually run 3 to 4
hours. What you see on stage today is an unscrupulous reduction of
Shakespeare's vision to potty break time.

Dave

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253289 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 23:14

zoltan47

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 04:11:35 -0400, Toon <toon [at] toon.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 01:23:50 GMT, "Matt Clara" <hey.wood.y [at] buzz.off>
>wrote:
>
>>"zoltan47" <zoltan47 [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:fobq4254nglp2ctd0j1egb7qdiq1j5agbl [at] 4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:13:35 -0500, "Here in Minnesota"
>>> <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
>>>>
>>>>Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority of
>>>>the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but
>>>>the
>>>>majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress etc.
>>>>
>>>>Ken
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not just that. Remember in COS Hagrid states, "Most wizards these
>>> days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died
>>> out." In addition, so much of what is happening is because there is so
>>> much wizard/Muggle intermarriage that some pure-bloods fear that those
>>> like them will disappear, Yet, with all of this intermarriage, the two
>>> sides are almost completely ignorant of the other side.
>>>
>>> Look at the dorm room. Ron and Neville are the only purebloods in of
>>> the five. Seamus is half-blood so should have had some exposure to the
>>> Muggle world. Harry and Dean were both raised in the Muggle world.
>>> (While Dean's real father was a wizard, according to JKR's site, his
>>> environment was purely Muggle.)
>>>
>>> There has been so much intermarriage, so much mingling that it has
>>> been come a major issue, but there is also so much ignorance of the
>>> other side
>>
>>Hey, if God didn't want them to commingle, he wouldn't have made those
>>muggle girls so hot! ;-)
>
>Or allow the MFactor to allow crossbreeding. Wizards would be
>incompatible genetically with Muggles. No reproduction. It's be like
>a cockroach mating with a mouse.

That's not that good of an analogy. A cockroach and a mouse are of two
different species. The fact that there are witches and wizards such as
Lily and Hermione, people who are born of Muggle parents but with
magical powers, would seem to indicate that the two share the same
biological background. For me this is more indicative of a genetic
trait, such as IQ or hair color. I don't mean it's that basic, but
something along those lines.

Re: Biggest plot hole [message #253290 ]

Di, 25 April 2006 23:37

DaveD

"Jonathan Rodriguez" <xenexprime [at] verizon.net> wrote in message
news:x783g.793$Ne.521 [at] trndny02...
>
> "Here in Minnesota" <neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:kYL2g.1883$Ih6.357 [at] newsfe07.phx...
> > We all know the are many plot holes in the books [but still enjoy them].
> >
> > Hogsmead is the only pure Wizarding village... which means the majority
of
> > the wizards live in a muggle town [or isolated like the Weaslys]... but
> > the majority of the wizards seem to be igonarnt of how muggles dress
etc.
> >
> > Ken
> >
>
> I think another big plot hole is the rich wizards who have mansions, how
do
> they report income to tax collectors? I mean I am sure if the Goverment
> knows theres this big mansion like the Malfoy's they would want to collect
> taxes on it don't you think?
>
>
Not necessarily - you don't have to pay council tax in the UK on a derelict
house, it's exempt (and the same went for the poll tax and the old rates
system before that). So all you have to do is to make your house look
derelict to muggles and bingo - tax free!

And if you're only doing business with other wizards using galleons and
sickles, then the Inland Revenue aren't going to know about it so tax free
again!

That said, I'm not sure how wizarding folk interact with muggles when even
Arthur Weasley can't get the hang of muggle money... After all, surely some
wizards/witches must "cross over", even if only "boundary spanners" like Mrs
[Figgs??], the squib who lived near Harry and had a place in the muggle
world as well as the magical one? Or perhaps it will just be young wizards
and witches who'll interact in years to come.

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