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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Plot silliness HBP etc
Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253081] Sa, 22 April 2006 19:12
Magic_mom  
As much as I enjoy the books and the way Ms. Rowling writes, (most of
the time) why does she insist on seemingly stupid plot devides just to
set something up? I was reading part of HBP this morning.. and so sorry
if this is also a "HBT" (Half Baked Thought) But why in the world would
Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously muggle as PINS and
a tape measure to adjust the hem or sleeves of a robe??? A simple
spell... the proper flick of the wrist.. and Malfoy would have had no
need to get snippy about her sticking him with a pin. But then, of
course, that was the whole reason to get him started on being the
annoying little jackass he is, which in turn started the process of
*The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
annoying.

M_m
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253084 ] Sa, 22 April 2006 19:42
Gerhard Reichert  
"Magic_mom" <SpencerTL [at] gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1145725967.572599.16760 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> As much as I enjoy the books and the way Ms. Rowling writes, (most of
> the time) why does she insist on seemingly stupid plot devides just to
> set something up? I was reading part of HBP this morning.. and so sorry
> if this is also a "HBT" (Half Baked Thought) But why in the world would
> Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously muggle as PINS and
> a tape measure to adjust the hem or sleeves of a robe??? A simple
> spell... the proper flick of the wrist.. and Malfoy would have had no
> need to get snippy about her sticking him with a pin. But then, of
> course, that was the whole reason to get him started on being the
> annoying little jackass he is, which in turn started the process of
> *The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
> I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
> annoying.
>
> M_m

Hi from Germany,

because the simple things in life have to be done simple. For example: if
You were right, magic people would not take a glass of wine and drink, they
had to spell some magic words to get the glass of wine. For what reason?

To be a wise man always means not to use more than necessary, and why should
a witch or any other magic person not try to be a wise human being?

Are You sure, You understood the message in jkr books? :-)


best unmagic regards from a Bavarian muggle


Gerhard
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253085 ] Sa, 22 April 2006 19:53
Magic_mom  
>
> Hi from Germany,
>
> because the simple things in life have to be done simple. For example: if
> You were right, magic people would not take a glass of wine and drink, they
> had to spell some magic words to get the glass of wine. For what reason?
>
> To be a wise man always means not to use more than necessary, and why should
> a witch or any other magic person not try to be a wise human being?
>
> Are You sure, You understood the message in jkr books? :-)
>
>
> best unmagic regards from a Bavarian muggle
>
>
> Gerhard

Then that would apply to everything else in the books. Mrs. Weasley,
for example, uses magic to prepare meals. In HBP, in Hagrid's cottage
with Harry, Slughorn, and Hagrid, the wine (or whatever it is) carafe
refills itself. There are many many examples of simple things being
done magically, so it is a contradiction when they are *not* done that
way. Are you sure *you* get the books?!

M_m
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253086 ] Sa, 22 April 2006 20:19
Neener  
Magic_mom wrote:
> As much as I enjoy the books and the way Ms. Rowling writes, (most of
> the time) why does she insist on seemingly stupid plot devides just to
> set something up? I was reading part of HBP this morning.. and so sorry
> if this is also a "HBT" (Half Baked Thought) But why in the world would
> Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously muggle as PINS and
> a tape measure to adjust the hem or sleeves of a robe??? A simple
> spell... the proper flick of the wrist.. and Malfoy would have had no
> need to get snippy about her sticking him with a pin. But then, of
> course, that was the whole reason to get him started on being the
> annoying little jackass he is, which in turn started the process of
> *The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
> I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
> annoying.
>
> M_m

Perhaps it's to do with the fact that hemming requires an experienced
eye as to what's a proper length, and that can only be achieved by
using the boring non-magical method of pins? The only "sewing" spell
that I can remember at all (Molly's knitting notwithstanding) is Ron
attempting to sever the lace from his dress robes in GoF.

That having been said, it does seem a bit odd that, having once
determined the proper length of either sleeve or hem, Madame Malkin
couldn't just flick her wand to make things even all the way round.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253089 ] Sa, 22 April 2006 21:34
Magic_mom  
Neener wrote:
> Magic_mom wrote:
> > As much as I enjoy the books and the way Ms. Rowling writes, (most of
> > the time) why does she insist on seemingly stupid plot devides just to
> > set something up? I was reading part of HBP this morning.. and so sorry
> > if this is also a "HBT" (Half Baked Thought) But why in the world would
> > Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously muggle as PINS and
> > a tape measure to adjust the hem or sleeves of a robe??? A simple
> > spell... the proper flick of the wrist.. and Malfoy would have had no
> > need to get snippy about her sticking him with a pin. But then, of
> > course, that was the whole reason to get him started on being the
> > annoying little jackass he is, which in turn started the process of
> > *The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
> > I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
> > annoying.
> >
> > M_m
>
> Perhaps it's to do with the fact that hemming requires an experienced
> eye as to what's a proper length, and that can only be achieved by
> using the boring non-magical method of pins? The only "sewing" spell
> that I can remember at all (Molly's knitting notwithstanding) is Ron
> attempting to sever the lace from his dress robes in GoF.
>
> That having been said, it does seem a bit odd that, having once
> determined the proper length of either sleeve or hem, Madame Malkin
> couldn't just flick her wand to make things even all the way round.

LOL.. I think Ron's attempts would fit more with the butcher than a
seamstress.

"Simple pleasures" however, no matter how pleasurable, have their
drudgery aspects as well. (This is now in reference to the first reply,
not Neeners.) Sewing, for example, can be one of those simple
pleasures, and is one I enjoy myself. However, I enjoy things such as
embroidery and beadwork. Hemming a pair of pants is *not* something fun
to me. It is a chore; something I must do on occasion. I have a
wonderful setting on my sewing machine that does perfectly lovely pants
hems, so I can get it done quickly and not have to bother with it.
Knitting is also something people enjoy, yet when it's having to repair
socks instead of something such as, say making a blanket or sweater, it
becomes a chore. One needs the skills to do both; however, some have
more specialized skills than others at that hobby. One witch may be
able to do intricate spells or charms to knit a beautiful sweater,
whereas another may only be able to manage the simplest of repairs. The
same would be of making items of clothing. "She always had such an
ability to perform the most intricate sewing spells"... Hemming the
robes would be the chore.

M_m
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253092 ] So, 23 April 2006 00:21
Gerhard Reichert  
"Magic_mom" <SpencerTL [at] gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1145728437.764987.78640 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>> Hi from Germany,
>>
>> because the simple things in life have to be done simple. For example: if
>> You were right, magic people would not take a glass of wine and drink,
>> they
>> had to spell some magic words to get the glass of wine. For what reason?
>>
>> To be a wise man always means not to use more than necessary, and why
>> should
>> a witch or any other magic person not try to be a wise human being?
>>
>> Are You sure, You understood the message in jkr books? :-)
>>
>>
>> best unmagic regards from a Bavarian muggle
>>
>>
>> Gerhard
>
> Then that would apply to everything else in the books. Mrs. Weasley,
> for example, uses magic to prepare meals. In HBP, in Hagrid's cottage
> with Harry, Slughorn, and Hagrid, the wine (or whatever it is) carafe
> refills itself. There are many many examples of simple things being
> done magically, so it is a contradiction when they are *not* done that
> way. Are you sure *you* get the books?!
>
> M_m
>

Hi again Magic_Mom,

let go one step further now: why buying new clothes, if You are magic and
can get them easier only by using your wand? May be because it is the
traditional way things have to be done.

It is not always a "plot silliness", when thing do not work perfect. For
example:

In GoF Harry has to get the dragon-egg. He uses "Accio" to get his broom.
Why not using the words "Accio dragon-egg"? :-) The answer is simple again.
Harry did not come up with this idea. Also magicians are not perfect and how
boring would be a story about perfect people.

best regards from sunny Bavarian

Gerhard
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253093 ] So, 23 April 2006 00:53
cwlNO  
In article <1145734458.588803.283660 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"Magic_mom" <SpencerTL [at] gmail.com> wrote:

>Neener wrote:
>> Magic_mom wrote:
>> > As much as I enjoy the books and the way Ms. Rowling writes, (most of
>> > the time) why does she insist on seemingly stupid plot devides just to
>> > set something up? I was reading part of HBP this morning.. and so sorry
>> > if this is also a "HBT" (Half Baked Thought) But why in the world would
>> > Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously muggle as PINS and
>> > a tape measure to adjust the hem or sleeves of a robe??? A simple
>> > spell... the proper flick of the wrist.. and Malfoy would have had no
>> > need to get snippy about her sticking him with a pin. But then, of
>> > course, that was the whole reason to get him started on being the
>> > annoying little jackass he is, which in turn started the process of
>> > *The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
>> > I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
>> > annoying.
>> >
>> > M_m
>>
>> Perhaps it's to do with the fact that hemming requires an experienced
>> eye as to what's a proper length, and that can only be achieved by
>> using the boring non-magical method of pins? The only "sewing" spell
>> that I can remember at all (Molly's knitting notwithstanding) is Ron
>> attempting to sever the lace from his dress robes in GoF.
>>
>> That having been said, it does seem a bit odd that, having once
>> determined the proper length of either sleeve or hem, Madame Malkin
>> couldn't just flick her wand to make things even all the way round.
>
>LOL.. I think Ron's attempts would fit more with the butcher than a
>seamstress.
>
>"Simple pleasures" however, no matter how pleasurable, have their
>drudgery aspects as well. (This is now in reference to the first reply,
>not Neeners.) Sewing, for example, can be one of those simple
>pleasures, and is one I enjoy myself. However, I enjoy things such as
>embroidery and beadwork. Hemming a pair of pants is *not* something fun
>to me. It is a chore; something I must do on occasion. I have a
>wonderful setting on my sewing machine that does perfectly lovely pants
>hems, so I can get it done quickly and not have to bother with it.
>Knitting is also something people enjoy, yet when it's having to repair
>socks instead of something such as, say making a blanket or sweater, it
>becomes a chore. One needs the skills to do both; however, some have
>more specialized skills than others at that hobby. One witch may be
>able to do intricate spells or charms to knit a beautiful sweater,
>whereas another may only be able to manage the simplest of repairs. The
>same would be of making items of clothing. "She always had such an
>ability to perform the most intricate sewing spells"... Hemming the
>robes would be the chore.

Sewing can be an absolute joy for some people. It means that the operation
will soon be over and they can finally go to the toilet before the next
patient is on the table.

A day without blood is a day without sunshine. ;-)
--
Chris
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253096 ] So, 23 April 2006 01:27
Ted  
Magic_mom wrote:
> >
> > Hi from Germany,
> >
> > because the simple things in life have to be done simple. For example: if
> > You were right, magic people would not take a glass of wine and drink, they
> > had to spell some magic words to get the glass of wine. For what reason?
> >
> > To be a wise man always means not to use more than necessary, and why should
> > a witch or any other magic person not try to be a wise human being?
> >
> > Are You sure, You understood the message in jkr books? :-)
> >
> >
> > best unmagic regards from a Bavarian muggle
> >
> >
> > Gerhard
>
> Then that would apply to everything else in the books. Mrs. Weasley,
> for example, uses magic to prepare meals. In HBP, in Hagrid's cottage
> with Harry, Slughorn, and Hagrid, the wine (or whatever it is) carafe
> refills itself. There are many many examples of simple things being
> done magically, so it is a contradiction when they are *not* done that
> way.

This contradiction undermines the whole idea of a Wizarding world
parallel to the Muggle world. Being able to do magic gives the Wizard
an advantage compared to the Muggle. Why haven't the Wizards simply
outbred and replaced the Muggles? Much as I enjoy the HP stories, this
has always irritated me. To make sense, there has to be a
counteracting disadvantage to being magical. Maybe the ability goes
along with being infertile. Or casting spells takes energy out of you
and makes you prone to infection diseases. Or something...
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253097 ] So, 23 April 2006 01:32
wadkin2000  
Green-Eyed Chris wrote

> Sewing can be an absolute joy for some people. It means that the operation
> will soon be over and they can finally go to the toilet before the next
> patient is on the table.
>
> A day without blood is a day without sunshine. ;-)
> --
> Chris


"Or money," the crazy lady said with a smirk.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253108 ] So, 23 April 2006 07:56
rc  
Neener wrote:

> That having been said, it does seem a bit odd that, having once
> determined the proper length of either sleeve or hem, Madame Malkin
> couldn't just flick her wand to make things even all the way round.

If I remember correctly, Madame Malkin is only described as fitting the
robes, not doing the actual sewing. Then, there is not only the hem,
but the drape and width of the sleeve and the length of the robe as
opposed to the length of the boy's trousers or the girl's skirt length.
These would factor into the fit. Remember, these are custom made
garments and will be fitted accordingly. ( I guess by now you all can
figure out I am an experienced seamstress).
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253109 ] So, 23 April 2006 08:19
septithol  
> Being able to do magic gives the Wizard
> an advantage compared to the Muggle. Why haven't the Wizards simply
> outbred and replaced the Muggles? Much as I enjoy the HP stories, this
> has always irritated me. To make sense, there has to be a
> counteracting disadvantage to being magical. Maybe the ability goes
> along with being infertile. Or casting spells takes energy out of you
> and makes you prone to infection diseases. Or something...

Hmm. A simply look at Nature would tell you the answer to this
question. Consider the common Gorilla. Being extremely strong gives a
gorilla an advantage compared to the human being. Why haven't gorillas
simply outbred and replaced humans? Because human beings are far
SMARTER than gorillas. Gorillas do not have much in the brains
department. They don't NEED to. Being strong makes things too EASY for
them. If a species, or isolated population of a species does not need a
particular trait to survive, it is not likely to develop it, and will
gradually lose it if it already has it. Case in point, there are far
more venomous snakes than other venomous animals, because lacking
limbs, snakes need poison far more. Also, Witness the loss of eyes in
cave fish, and the loss of flight in birds on islands with no
predators.

Magic makes things far too easy. A human being with magic has far less
need of intellect than one without magic. The short term result of
having magic is seen in such people as Crabbe and Goyle. The long term
result would be, I suspect, something rather like a house elf. This is
upheld by the stories. The smartest wizards are the ones with at least
one muggle parent. Snape, Hermoine, etc.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253110 ] So, 23 April 2006 09:40
Toon  
On 22 Apr 2006 10:12:47 -0700, "Magic_mom" <SpencerTL [at] gmail.com>
wrote:

>As much as I enjoy the books and the way Ms. Rowling writes, (most of
>the time) why does she insist on seemingly stupid plot devides just to
>set something up? I was reading part of HBP this morning.. and so sorry
>if this is also a "HBT" (Half Baked Thought) But why in the world would
>Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously muggle as PINS and
>a tape measure to adjust the hem or sleeves of a robe??? A simple
>spell... the proper flick of the wrist.. and Malfoy would have had no
>need to get snippy about her sticking him with a pin. But then, of
>course, that was the whole reason to get him started on being the
>annoying little jackass he is, which in turn started the process of
>*The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
>I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
>annoying.
>
>M_m

Maybe she's not a pureblood and prefers good old fashioned hard work,
and not magic to solve all of life's difficulties.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253111 ] So, 23 April 2006 09:42
Toon  
On 22 Apr 2006 10:53:57 -0700, "Magic_mom" <SpencerTL [at] gmail.com>
wrote:

>Mrs. Weasley,
>for example, uses magic to prepare meals.

What housewife wouldn't, regardless of how much simple things, good
old, fashioned hard work, or whatever their philosophy might be?
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253112 ] So, 23 April 2006 09:45
Toon  
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:21:34 +0200, "Gerhard Reichert"
<darklook [at] arcor.de> wrote:

>
>"Magic_mom" <SpencerTL [at] gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:1145728437.764987.78640 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>
>>> Hi from Germany,
>>>
>>> because the simple things in life have to be done simple. For example: if
>>> You were right, magic people would not take a glass of wine and drink,
>>> they
>>> had to spell some magic words to get the glass of wine. For what reason?
>>>
>>> To be a wise man always means not to use more than necessary, and why
>>> should
>>> a witch or any other magic person not try to be a wise human being?
>>>
>>> Are You sure, You understood the message in jkr books? :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> best unmagic regards from a Bavarian muggle
>>>
>>>
>>> Gerhard
>>
>> Then that would apply to everything else in the books. Mrs. Weasley,
>> for example, uses magic to prepare meals. In HBP, in Hagrid's cottage
>> with Harry, Slughorn, and Hagrid, the wine (or whatever it is) carafe
>> refills itself. There are many many examples of simple things being
>> done magically, so it is a contradiction when they are *not* done that
>> way. Are you sure *you* get the books?!
>>
>> M_m
>>
>
>Hi again Magic_Mom,
>
>let go one step further now: why buying new clothes, if You are magic and
>can get them easier only by using your wand? May be because it is the
>traditional way things have to be done.
>
>It is not always a "plot silliness", when thing do not work perfect. For
>example:
>
>In GoF Harry has to get the dragon-egg. He uses "Accio" to get his broom.
>Why not using the words "Accio dragon-egg"? :-) The answer is simple again.
>Harry did not come up with this idea. Also magicians are not perfect and how
>boring would be a story about perfect people.
>
>best regards from sunny Bavarian
>
>Gerhard
>

They couldn't Accio the egg because A) the Mama Fragon would attack,
unable to tell her own egg from a golden egg, and B) they were being
tested on strength, speed, intelligence, skill. How hard is it to
remember to Accio something? So far, we know it's hard to remember to
create fire, but both times were by someone not even old enough to
compete in the TWT.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253113 ] So, 23 April 2006 09:47
Toon  
On 22 Apr 2006 16:27:44 -0700, "Ted" <Ted_Drawneek [at] xtra.co.nz> wrote:

>
>Magic_mom wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi from Germany,
>> >
>> > because the simple things in life have to be done simple. For example: if
>> > You were right, magic people would not take a glass of wine and drink, they
>> > had to spell some magic words to get the glass of wine. For what reason?
>> >
>> > To be a wise man always means not to use more than necessary, and why should
>> > a witch or any other magic person not try to be a wise human being?
>> >
>> > Are You sure, You understood the message in jkr books? :-)
>> >
>> >
>> > best unmagic regards from a Bavarian muggle
>> >
>> >
>> > Gerhard
>>
>> Then that would apply to everything else in the books. Mrs. Weasley,
>> for example, uses magic to prepare meals. In HBP, in Hagrid's cottage
>> with Harry, Slughorn, and Hagrid, the wine (or whatever it is) carafe
>> refills itself. There are many many examples of simple things being
>> done magically, so it is a contradiction when they are *not* done that
>> way.
>
>This contradiction undermines the whole idea of a Wizarding world
>parallel to the Muggle world. Being able to do magic gives the Wizard
>an advantage compared to the Muggle. Why haven't the Wizards simply
>outbred and replaced the Muggles? Much as I enjoy the HP stories, this
>has always irritated me. To make sense, there has to be a
>counteracting disadvantage to being magical. Maybe the ability goes
>along with being infertile. Or casting spells takes energy out of you
>and makes you prone to infection diseases. Or something...

in time they will, but not as Pureblood. or at least, enough people
will know to make Magicla Secrecy pointless.

we do know they can just pop clothing into existence. it's only
temporary. Perhaps magical alterations wear off at midnight.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253114 ] So, 23 April 2006 09:48
Toon  
On 22 Apr 2006 11:19:05 -0700, "Neener" <ninasown [at] aol.com> wrote:

>
>That having been said, it does seem a bit odd that, having once
>determined the proper length of either sleeve or hem, Madame Malkin
>couldn't just flick her wand to make things even all the way round.

Poeple aren't always symmetrical and proportionate.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253122 ] So, 23 April 2006 10:47
dsueme  
Magic_mom wrote:

why in the world would
> Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously muggle as PINS

Well, there are two basic ways of looking at this...

1. The wizarding world must at some level be grounded in the mundane
(muggle) world because JKR's world is a satire of you, I and the Tory
parrty...

2. OK, my bad. There is only one way of looking at this that makes
any sense.

Dave
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253123 ] So, 23 April 2006 11:18
Moon  
Magic_mom schrieb:

> But then, of course, that was the whole reason to get him started on
> being the
> annoying little jackass he is, which in turn started the process of
> *The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
> I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
> annoying.

What struck me as annoying is your totally unfounded construction of this
as the trigger for later events. Malfoy always acts out as the jackass he
is and the "trio" would have been wondering about what he was up to
sneaking around by himself *anyway*.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253125 ] So, 23 April 2006 14:12
Ted  
septithol wrote:
>
> Magic makes things far too easy. A human being with magic has far less
> need of intellect than one without magic. The short term result of
> having magic is seen in such people as Crabbe and Goyle. The long term
> result would be, I suspect, something rather like a house elf. This is
> upheld by the stories. The smartest wizards are the ones with at least
> one muggle parent. Snape, Hermoine, etc.

Nice explanation of how house elves came about. But, when the Wizards
started fighting among themselves, rather than fighting Muggles, then
being stupid would be a disadvantage. And they seem to have fought each
other quite a bit. Maybe their displacement of the Muggles has been
slowed down by intercinine conflicts
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253128 ] So, 23 April 2006 15:58
Ken  
Magic_mom wrote:
> As much as I enjoy the books and the way Ms. Rowling writes, (most of
> the time) why does she insist on seemingly stupid plot devides just to
> set something up? I was reading part of HBP this morning.. and so
> sorry if this is also a "HBT" (Half Baked Thought) But why in the
> world would Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously
> muggle as PINS and a tape measure to adjust the hem or sleeves of a
> robe??? A simple spell... the proper flick of the wrist.. and Malfoy
> would have had no need to get snippy about her sticking him with a
> pin. But then, of course, that was the whole reason to get him
> started on being the annoying little jackass he is, which in turn
> started the process of *The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
> I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
> annoying.
>
> M_m

Ok the secret is out... Madame Malkin doesn't NEED to use pins and tape...
she just enjoy touching little boys arms.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253146 ] So, 23 April 2006 20:07
Neener  
Toon wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2006 11:19:05 -0700, "Neener" <ninasown [at] aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >That having been said, it does seem a bit odd that, having once
> >determined the proper length of either sleeve or hem, Madame Malkin
> >couldn't just flick her wand to make things even all the way round.
>
> Poeple aren't always symmetrical and proportionate.

Too right - a fact I like to overlook in order to avoid having to
endlessly stare at my fellow humans in order to discern precisely where
the lopsidedness is located :-)
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253147 ] So, 23 April 2006 20:08
Neener  
Toon wrote:
>
> Maybe she's not a pureblood and prefers good old fashioned hard work,
> and not magic to solve all of life's difficulties.

Or perhaps she's a Squib, and has no options other than pins.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253150 ] So, 23 April 2006 22:18
pinkrose_blossom99  
maybe because she thought that doing it the muggle way is more
entertaining or meaningful. i'm not really sure, but that's just my
idea.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253156 ] So, 23 April 2006 22:37
pooter  
Magic_mom [SpencerTL [at] gmail.com] said
> As much as I enjoy the books and the way Ms. Rowling writes, (most of
> the time) why does she insist on seemingly stupid plot devides just to
> set something up? I was reading part of HBP this morning.. and so sorry
> if this is also a "HBT" (Half Baked Thought) But why in the world would
> Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously muggle as PINS and
> a tape measure to adjust the hem or sleeves of a robe??? A simple
> spell... the proper flick of the wrist.. and Malfoy would have had no
> need to get snippy about her sticking him with a pin. But then, of
> course, that was the whole reason to get him started on being the
> annoying little jackass he is, which in turn started the process of
> *The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
> I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
> annoying.

It irritates me that the Weasleys are poor and that wizards need shops
and banks but if the magic was made to do everything that magic could be
made to do there wouldn't be much of a story. :-)
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253160 ] Mo, 24 April 2006 00:42
Ted  
pooter wrote:
> Magic_mom [SpencerTL [at] gmail.com] said
> > As much as I enjoy the books and the way Ms. Rowling writes, (most of
> > the time) why does she insist on seemingly stupid plot devides just to
> > set something up? I was reading part of HBP this morning.. and so sorry
> > if this is also a "HBT" (Half Baked Thought) But why in the world would
> > Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously muggle as PINS and
> > a tape measure to adjust the hem or sleeves of a robe??? A simple
> > spell... the proper flick of the wrist.. and Malfoy would have had no
> > need to get snippy about her sticking him with a pin. But then, of
> > course, that was the whole reason to get him started on being the
> > annoying little jackass he is, which in turn started the process of
> > *The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
> > I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
> > annoying.
>
> It irritates me that the Weasleys are poor and that wizards need shops
> and banks but if the magic was made to do everything that magic could be
> made to do there wouldn't be much of a story. :-)

The answer must be that there is a cost to doing magic that hasn't been
made clear to us. The pupils at Hogwarts are shown as putting effort
in to mastering the techniques: why should they be effort-free once
mastered? Sometimes the Muggle way must be easier.

To enjoy reading HP, you must suspend your disbelief in some areas.
The thing I have most difficulty in accepting is the existence of the
free lunch.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253165 ] Mo, 24 April 2006 01:09
Magic_mom  
Neener wrote:
> Toon wrote:
> >
> > Maybe she's not a pureblood and prefers good old fashioned hard work,
> > and not magic to solve all of life's difficulties.
>
> Or perhaps she's a Squib, and has no options other than pins.

No.. she uses her wand to clean off the robe Malfoy tosses to the floor
before he leaves.

M_m
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253178 ] Mo, 24 April 2006 04:44
scenario_dave  
>
> It irritates me that the Weasleys are poor and that wizards need shops
> and banks but if the magic was made to do everything that magic could be
> made to do there wouldn't be much of a story. :-)

How could someone be poor if there were no limitations on magic. You
need a million galleons just zap some up. There must be some limits on
what wizards can do or the story makes no sense at all.

Maybe there is a tradition that the robes must be measured by hand.

Maybe matter cannot be created or destroyed in the magic world either
and they have to get the cloth from somewhere.

Maybe the sewing spell may be easy but the measuring spell very
difficult and unpredictable for some reason. The cheaper stores
measure, fit and make the clothing by magic but they never fit quite
right. If you want it to fit right, you've got to measure it by hand to
make sure the measuring spell works right.

The problem with world building is that you have to leave some things
unsaid. If she tried to explain every detail, the story would get
totally bogged down in minor things that had nothing to do with the
plot. If she tried to explain why they had to measure Draco by hand it
would just open up even more questions.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253182 ] Mo, 24 April 2006 06:56
septithol  
Ted wrote:
> But, when the Wizards started fighting among themselves, rather than fighting
> Muggles, then being stupid would be a disadvantage.

Not necessarily. If you look at human warfare, particularily during the
20th century, the net results of the wars we have fought FAVOR the
unfit, as they are exempt from military service. As are the children of
a particular political elite. The best and brightest from the lower and
middle classes are rounded up, generally about once every generation
(convenient how that turns out, ain't it?) to go and kill eachother
off.

Also bear in mind that the wizarding laws are structured in such a way
as to lower the chances of survival of anyone who follows them, by
labelling the most effective defensive spells as 'unforgivables', good
for a one way trip to Azkaban regardless of one's reasons for casting
them. Basically the equivalent of our own idiotic gun control laws.
Under such circumstances, the instant someone is attacked, regardless
of WHAT they do, they are automatically removed from the gene pool. If
they don't use the unforgivables, they will be killed. If they do use
them, in order to survive, they will be sent to Azkaban. Even if you
have a semi-competent government which decides to pardon you for a
one-time defensive use of an 'unforgivable', the laws against them
still put you at a tremendous disadvantage because unlike the Death
Eaters attacking you, you would not have been previously able to
practice and become effective with them. Imagine trying to learn to aim
and use a gun for the first time when one of the Manson family breaks
into your house, rather than at the local shooting range. Under such
circumstances, one can only survive if one is considered not worth
attacking (which probably means not very bright), or if one is a Death
Eater, and has Voldemort on one's side to keep one out of Azkaban
despite (horrors) knowing how to fight effectively. However the Death
Eaters are engaged in a breeding program concentrating on being a
'pureblood', not on brains.

Also the Death Eaters are bullies, they attack people only when they
drastically outnumber them. I don't care if you have an IQ of 200, and
you are attacked by a mob of 20 people whose average IQ is 75, if you
are outnumbered badly enough, you are almost certainly going to die
regardless of how smart you are.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253186 ] Mo, 24 April 2006 09:30
dsueme  
Ted wrote:

> The answer must be that there is a cost to doing magic that hasn't been
> made clear to us. The pupils at Hogwarts are shown as putting effort
> in to mastering the techniques: why should they be effort-free once
> mastered? Sometimes the Muggle way must be easier.

Ah, now I wish I had Troels to talk to, I must admit it much as I don't
like to. But I must carry on myself, I suppose...

One of the things that seems to be implicit in Terry Prachett's
"Discworld" novels is a sort of "Principle of the Conservation of Magic
Energy", to the effect that to do something by magic takes
approximately the same personal effort as doing it the conventional
way. True, some things can be done by magic that cannot be done by
conventional means, but the conservation principle is still served:
the degree of deviation from the conventionally possible seems to
dictate the amount of extra effort required to make the effect by
magical means.

I noticed this working in the earlier Discworld books - and then, if I
remember correctly, Pratchett finally stated something much to this
effect in one of the later books. Here is where the Troels angle comes
in: I have no idea in which Discworld novel Pratchett comes closest to
actually stating the "Conservation of Magic" principle, but Troels
would. And if you asked him how many commas were in the book he'd have
an answer a day later.

Pratchett is not the only author to think in terms of the conservation
of magic. Re-read Tolkien carefully - how may times does Gandalf
actually use magic? For trivial purposes, a few times - mostly in the
Hobbit and the first chapters of the Fellowship. But for really
important purposes, Gandolf usually fights with conventional methods.
And in the two important exceptions that occur to me immediately - the
Balrog and the fight before the White City - Gandalf is described in
terms suggesting exhaustion after winning the confrontation by magical
means. Clearly, for Tolkein the use of serious magic involves huge
personal effort.

Dave
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253198 ] Mo, 24 April 2006 10:11
Toon  
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 08:58:38 -0500, "Here in Minnesota"
<neverwillicheckthis [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

>Magic_mom wrote:
>> As much as I enjoy the books and the way Ms. Rowling writes, (most of
>> the time) why does she insist on seemingly stupid plot devides just to
>> set something up? I was reading part of HBP this morning.. and so
>> sorry if this is also a "HBT" (Half Baked Thought) But why in the
>> world would Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously
>> muggle as PINS and a tape measure to adjust the hem or sleeves of a
>> robe??? A simple spell... the proper flick of the wrist.. and Malfoy
>> would have had no need to get snippy about her sticking him with a
>> pin. But then, of course, that was the whole reason to get him
>> started on being the annoying little jackass he is, which in turn
>> started the process of *The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
>> I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
>> annoying.
>>
>> M_m
>
>Ok the secret is out... Madame Malkin doesn't NEED to use pins and tape...
>she just enjoy touching little boys arms.
>

Or maybe sticking herself with pins. Her version of cutting.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253199 ] Mo, 24 April 2006 10:12
Toon  
On 23 Apr 2006 13:18:07 -0700, pinkrose_blossom99 [at] yahoo.com wrote:

>maybe because she thought that doing it the muggle way is more
>entertaining or meaningful. i'm not really sure, but that's just my
>idea.

He pissed her off, so she muggled his clothes to get back at him? "And
I had to stand there like a common Muggle, being fitted the Muggle
way."
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253200 ] Mo, 24 April 2006 10:13
Toon  
On 23 Apr 2006 15:42:49 -0700, "Ted" <Ted_Drawneek [at] xtra.co.nz> wrote:

>
>pooter wrote:
>> Magic_mom [SpencerTL [at] gmail.com] said
>> > As much as I enjoy the books and the way Ms. Rowling writes, (most of
>> > the time) why does she insist on seemingly stupid plot devides just to
>> > set something up? I was reading part of HBP this morning.. and so sorry
>> > if this is also a "HBT" (Half Baked Thought) But why in the world would
>> > Madame Malkin NEED to use something as ridiculously muggle as PINS and
>> > a tape measure to adjust the hem or sleeves of a robe??? A simple
>> > spell... the proper flick of the wrist.. and Malfoy would have had no
>> > need to get snippy about her sticking him with a pin. But then, of
>> > course, that was the whole reason to get him started on being the
>> > annoying little jackass he is, which in turn started the process of
>> > *The Trio* wondering what he was up to...
>> > I know it's just the story.. but that one suddenly struck me as rather
>> > annoying.
>>
>> It irritates me that the Weasleys are poor and that wizards need shops
>> and banks but if the magic was made to do everything that magic could be
>> made to do there wouldn't be much of a story. :-)
>
>The answer must be that there is a cost to doing magic that hasn't been
>made clear to us. The pupils at Hogwarts are shown as putting effort
>in to mastering the techniques: why should they be effort-free once
>mastered? Sometimes the Muggle way must be easier.
>
>To enjoy reading HP, you must suspend your disbelief in some areas.
>The thing I have most difficulty in accepting is the existence of the
>free lunch.

It happens at times. I only was able to take advantage of it once.
Dang school work.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253201 ] Mo, 24 April 2006 10:14
Toon  
On 23 Apr 2006 19:44:14 -0700, "scenario_dave"
<scenario_dave [at] yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>>
>> It irritates me that the Weasleys are poor and that wizards need shops
>> and banks but if the magic was made to do everything that magic could be
>> made to do there wouldn't be much of a story. :-)
>
>How could someone be poor if there were no limitations on magic. You
>need a million galleons just zap some up. There must be some limits on
>what wizards can do or the story makes no sense at all.
>
>Maybe there is a tradition that the robes must be measured by hand.
>
>Maybe matter cannot be created or destroyed in the magic world either
>and they have to get the cloth from somewhere.
>
>Maybe the sewing spell may be easy but the measuring spell very
>difficult and unpredictable for some reason. The cheaper stores
>measure, fit and make the clothing by magic but they never fit quite
>right. If you want it to fit right, you've got to measure it by hand to
>make sure the measuring spell works right.
>
>The problem with world building is that you have to leave some things
>unsaid. If she tried to explain every detail, the story would get
>totally bogged down in minor things that had nothing to do with the
>plot. If she tried to explain why they had to measure Draco by hand it
>would just open up even more questions.

Like what's her obsession with measuring teen boys in such full
detail?
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253204 ] Mo, 24 April 2006 13:18
Ted  
septithol wrote:
> Ted wrote:
> > But, when the Wizards started fighting among themselves, rather than fighting
> > Muggles, then being stupid would be a disadvantage.
>
> Not necessarily. If you look at human warfare, particularily during the
> 20th century,

Industrialised slaughter on a vast scale. JKR describes a far more
personal, wizard-versus-wizard conflict. Magical abilities would
cancel out, and we are left with the conventional qualities.

>
> Also bear in mind that the wizarding laws are structured in such a way
> as to lower the chances of survival of anyone who follows them, by
> labelling the most effective defensive spells as 'unforgivables'

The chances of survival of a random member of Wizarding society are not
going to be increased if Avada Kedavras are flung around with abandon.

> Under such
> circumstances, one can only survive if one is considered not worth
> attacking (which probably means not very bright),

No no no. If you are considered not worth attacking, then your
subterfuge has succeeded.

> Also the Death Eaters are bullies, they attack people only when they
> drastically outnumber them. I don't care if you have an IQ of 200, and
> you are attacked by a mob of 20 people whose average IQ is 75, if you
> are outnumbered badly enough, you are almost certainly going to die
> regardless of how smart you are.

Well I can't argue with that. But the smart person wouldn't be there
in the first place.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253213 ] Mo, 24 April 2006 14:43
de_minted  
David Sueme wrote:

> Pratchett is not the only author to think in terms of the conservation
> of magic.

There's a similar idea in the Worst Witch series of books. The Doctor
Foster effect is the effect of too many spells happening at the same
time. It causes everything to revert back and go spleurgh.
I don't think I have found any instances of this kind in HP yet.

PP
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253272 ] Di, 25 April 2006 10:14
Toon  
On 23 Apr 2006 21:56:22 -0700, "septithol" <septithol [at] yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>Also the Death Eaters are bullies, they attack people only when they
>drastically outnumber them. I don't care if you have an IQ of 200, and
>you are attacked by a mob of 20 people whose average IQ is 75, if you
>are outnumbered badly enough, you are almost certainly going to die
>regardless of how smart you are.

Esepcially because smart people always underestimate a large group of
stupid people. They're stupid. They'll do things you'd swear nobody
'd be stupid enough to do.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253280 ] Di, 25 April 2006 15:19
Magic_mom  
Toon wrote:
> On 23 Apr 2006 21:56:22 -0700, "septithol" <septithol [at] yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Also the Death Eaters are bullies, they attack people only when they
> >drastically outnumber them. I don't care if you have an IQ of 200, and
> >you are attacked by a mob of 20 people whose average IQ is 75, if you
> >are outnumbered badly enough, you are almost certainly going to die
> >regardless of how smart you are.
>
> Esepcially because smart people always underestimate a large group of
> stupid people. They're stupid. They'll do things you'd swear nobody
> 'd be stupid enough to do.

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

A famous bumper sticker, lol.

M_m
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253314 ] Mi, 26 April 2006 06:49
Toon  
On 25 Apr 2006 06:19:10 -0700, "Magic_mom" <SpencerTL [at] gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Toon wrote:
>> On 23 Apr 2006 21:56:22 -0700, "septithol" <septithol [at] yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Also the Death Eaters are bullies, they attack people only when they
>> >drastically outnumber them. I don't care if you have an IQ of 200, and
>> >you are attacked by a mob of 20 people whose average IQ is 75, if you
>> >are outnumbered badly enough, you are almost certainly going to die
>> >regardless of how smart you are.
>>
>> Esepcially because smart people always underestimate a large group of
>> stupid people. They're stupid. They'll do things you'd swear nobody
>> 'd be stupid enough to do.
>
>"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
>
>A famous bumper sticker, lol.
>
>M_m

That's the quote I was fishing for.
Re: Plot silliness HBP etc [message #253333 ] Mi, 26 April 2006 16:03
wadkin2000  
Toon wrote:
> On 25 Apr 2006 06:19:10 -0700, "Magic_mom" <SpencerTL [at] gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Toon wrote:
> >> On 23 Apr 2006 21:56:22 -0700, "septithol" <septithol [at] yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Also the Death Eaters are bullies, they attack people only when they
> >> >drastically outnumber them. I don't care if you have an IQ of 200, and
> >> >you are attacked by a mob of 20 people whose average IQ is 75, if you
> >> >are outnumbered badly enough, you are almost certainly going to die
> >> >regardless of how smart you are.
> >>
> >> Esepcially because smart people always underestimate a large group of
> >> stupid people. They're stupid. They'll do things you'd swear nobody
> >> 'd be stupid enough to do.
> >
> >"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
> >
> >A famous bumper sticker, lol.
> >
> >M_m
>
> That's the quote I was fishing for.


LOL...I saw one about a year ago that said, "Stupid people shouldn't
breed".
[OT] bumper stickers (was Plot silliness HBP etc) [message #253336 ] Mi, 26 April 2006 16:54
Philip Lewis  
SpencerTL [at] gmail.com wrote:
>"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com writes:
>"Stupid people shouldn't breed".

Genetic Lifeguard--- "You! Out of the Pool!"

--
May no harm befall you,
flip
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