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Fantasy » alt.fan.tolkien » Tolkien and archaeology
Tolkien and archaeology [message #247959] Di, 11 April 2006 17:53
Jamie Armstrong  
Hello to everyone (or at least, to everyone who remembers me. Or even
*anyone* who remembers me...)!

I was wondering if anyone was aware of any books, articles or even
reliable websites tackling Middle-earth as an archaeological site?
Obviously I'm aware of Brian Bates dubious 'The Real Middle Earth', and
Karen Fonstad's 'Atlas of Middle-Earth, but is there anything else out
there? I particularly interested in anything exploring stuff like
land-use, monumentality, settlements, death, ritual etc, and trying to
explore what it means in the context of Middle-earth itself. Also,
anything that tries a comparative study between 'real world' archaeology
and what we have in Middle-earth (barrows, standing stones etc), and
whether Tolkien uses them in a different way.

Hmmm...

Hope that makes sense to someone.

Jamie (one-time regular, but been AWOL for 3 years...)
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #247960 ] Di, 11 April 2006 19:00
Speaking Clock  
Jamie Armstrong wrote:
> Hello to everyone (or at least, to everyone who remembers me. Or even
> *anyone* who remembers me...)!

I remember you. :) Didn't I hear a message from you read out on Radio 5
one night?

> I was wondering if anyone was aware of any books, articles or even
> reliable websites tackling Middle-earth as an archaeological site?
> Obviously I'm aware of Brian Bates dubious 'The Real Middle Earth',
> and Karen Fonstad's 'Atlas of Middle-Earth, but is there anything
> else out there? I particularly interested in anything exploring stuff
> like land-use, monumentality, settlements, death, ritual etc, and
> trying to explore what it means in the context of Middle-earth
> itself. Also, anything that tries a comparative study between 'real
> world' archaeology and what we have in Middle-earth (barrows,
> standing stones etc), and whether Tolkien uses them in a different
> way.

Sounds absolutely fascinating - PLEASE WRITE IT! :) :)
--
Speaking Clock
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #247961 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 05:35
sbjensen  
Quoth Jamie Armstrong <j.d.armstrong [at] durham.ac.uk> in article
<e1gjd3$34l$1 [at] heffalump.dur.ac.uk>:
> Hello to everyone (or at least, to everyone who remembers me. Or even
> *anyone* who remembers me...)!

Hello!

> I was wondering if anyone was aware of any books, articles or even
> reliable websites tackling Middle-earth as an archaeological site?

The nearest I can think of is Peter Jackson's early interviews about
the feel he was hoping to achieve in his movies. :) I don't think
that's really what you're looking for, though.

One major sticking point is the scarcity of published books about
Middle-earth from a "story internal" perspective on any topic: I think
that most writers (and most publishing houses) consider such things to
be "fannish" and not worth spending time on. So when you say you're
interested in topics from archaeology "in the context of Middle-earth
itself", I suspect that you're going to have trouble finding it in a
published text.

But then again, I can't think of any websites on the topic, either
(not that I've tried to keep track of everything out there), and I
don't recall any particular discussions along those lines here,
either. It may be that relatively few people have considered these
questions before, even though they do sound quite interesting. I'd be
interested to hear if you have clever ideas of your own along these
lines. (This is, of course, where someone else comes along and points
to half a dozen articles on the subject. :) )

> Jamie (one-time regular, but been AWOL for 3 years...)

It says something about my own recent irregularity that it didn't
really register that you hadn't been posting recently. :) I've been
insanely busy with research papers and job searches for quite some
time now, and I've got a sizeable chunk of busy time left to go (or
perhaps a whole career's worth!).

Steuard Jensen
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #247962 ] Mi, 12 April 2006 13:45
Yuk Tang  
sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in
news:Nz__f.13$45.2171 [at] news.uchicago.edu:
> Quoth Jamie Armstrong <j.d.armstrong [at] durham.ac.uk> in article
> <e1gjd3$34l$1 [at] heffalump.dur.ac.uk>:
>
>> I was wondering if anyone was aware of any books, articles or
>> even reliable websites tackling Middle-earth as an archaeological
>> site?
>
> The nearest I can think of is Peter Jackson's early interviews
> about the feel he was hoping to achieve in his movies. :) I don't
> think that's really what you're looking for, though.
>
> One major sticking point is the scarcity of published books about
> Middle-earth from a "story internal" perspective on any topic: I
> think that most writers (and most publishing houses) consider such
> things to be "fannish" and not worth spending time on. So when
> you say you're interested in topics from archaeology "in the
> context of Middle-earth itself", I suspect that you're going to
> have trouble finding it in a published text.

The closest I can think of in any kind of quantity is Martinez's many
articles treating ME as a real organic world. Somehow I don't think
that's a popular bibliography, although the flamewars that might
result could be entertaining.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #247969 ] Do, 13 April 2006 20:54
Me  
In article <e1gjd3$34l$1 [at] heffalump.dur.ac.uk> you wrote:
> Hello to everyone (or at least, to everyone who remembers me. Or even
> *anyone* who remembers me...)!

Hi Jamie, yes I remember you... In particular, I remember
there is an archaeological site (on South Ronaldsay) that I envy
you having visited. :-)

> I was wondering if anyone was aware of any books, articles or even
> reliable websites tackling Middle-earth as an archaeological site?

This might not be the kind of thing you are looking for,
but have you seen the rather curious page "Tales from the
Prancing Pony"? Its premise is that some Victorian British
travellers "went to Middle-earth for a trip" and reported on
their travels in a now-hard-to-find book. Middle-earth is now
also Victorian, with railways, ugly docks etc. A "modern-day"
commentator also interjects every once in a while saying what
the areas being described look like "today". It's extremely
subtle, not least because it's easy to miss the tiny link at the
bottom of each page that leads you on to the next page of the story.

http://www.amazonsystems.co.uk/pony/pp.htm

--Jamie. (efil4dreN)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
[at] csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #247972 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 19:24
ssmmbfcs  
In http://www.telefonic.net/web2/franciscojaqueti/cgeh/cgeh.htm (web
page of the Geographic and Historic Group of the Spanish Tolkien
Society) there are several articles with a story internal" perspective,
but are in Spanish. For example:
- Reglas para el an=E1lisis hist=F3rico de la Tierra Media [Rules for the
historic analysis of Middle-earth] sets the suggested rules for this
kind of research
- La expansi=F3n colonial de N=FAmenor [The colonial expansion of
N=FAmenor]
- De las ballestas enanas [On dwarves' crossbows]
But there are two or three articles that were translated and they have
links to the originals, like The Military Organization of Northern
Territories of Gondor.

As mentioned Michael Martinez essays in:
http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/ but requires search for
specific information on settlements and its impact in landscape.

In the page of the Tolkien Society there is an article related to
funerary rituals:
http://www.tolkiensociety.org/ed/death.html

Searching in the Proceedings of the Centenary Conference
http://www.tolkiensociety.org/1992/index.html
- An Overview of the Northern Influences on Tolkien's Works by Gloriana
St. Clair, a bit on customs (rituals?)
- Volsunga Saga and Narn: Some Analogies by Gloriana St. Clair, a bit
on tokens (artifacts?)
- Writing and Allied Technologies in Middle-earth by Lester E. Simons,
for which artifacts could one expected to find
- Short History of the Territorial Development of the Dwarves' Kingdoms
in the Second and Third Ages of Middle-earth by Hubert Sawa, for more
on scattering of races with little on its impact on landscape

A comparison with 'real-world' customs in essay "Chalk Figures and
Scouring in Tolkien-land" by Emma B. Hawkins in Extrapolation (Winter
2000), Kent state University Press.


Others, I do not remember of articles devoted to this, but only
fragments here and there:

Hither Shore, vol. 1 (2004)
Jahrbuch der Deutschen Tolkien Gesellschaft
Essay "Die interpretatio medievalia von Tolkiens Werk"
(in German) by Thomas Honegger
There is a long section about the 'wassailing' ritual and compares
Tolkien use/modification of it in the Mark. The article Beowulf and
the Critics by Muchael Drout is pointed as more on this.

A few bits form The Road To Middle-earth (3rd. ed., 2003) or J. R. R.
Tolkien: author of the Century (2001) by Shippey. Specially chapters
"A Cartographic Plot" in the former or "The Lord of the Rings (1):
mapping out a plot" in the latter, where is told what Tolkien takes and
doesn't take from northern sources (mostly in cultural aspects).

In some aspects the consideration about details in essay "Tolkien's
Imaginary Nature: An Analysis of the Structure of Middle-earth" by
Michael J. Brisbois in Tolkien Studies vol. 2 (2005).

Maybe also some stuff form The Encyclopedia of Arda
(http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp) but very scattered.


More information on customs leading to monumentality, settlements,
death rituals is very scattered in Tolkien's works (as part of its
dept), and books or essays by other authors (as examples o part of
their arguments). If I remember well, on rituals there is a lot in
N=FAmen=F3rean stuff in Unfinished Tales and Letter --not all included,
like the discussion of N=FAmen=F3rean religion on letter 297. Related
with the fall of N=FAmenor (Sauron Defeated) somebody made a connection
with the barrow from which Frodo and company are rescued by Tom
Bombadil explaining the origin and possible content. Somebody else
(about burials) explained about the number of mounds in Rohan and that
E=F3mer would begin an other because he is not Th=E9oden's son; and in
relation to rohirrim, some one else explained about oral tradition and
thus importance of songs implied in a conversation between Th=E9oden and
Aragorn (?). There is/was in the net an essay about recorders of
history, but I do not remember the name to put in google.

Despite all this is not specifically about archaeology, I hope it could
be of some utility.


ssmmbfcs
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #247973 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 08:19
Christopher Kreuzer  
ssmmbfcs <fernandofcsmx [at] yahoo.com.mx> wrote:

<snip>

> Despite all this is not specifically about archaeology, I hope it
> could be of some utility.

Thanks for those interesting links and suggestions.

It got me thinking more about this, and I can't really think of specific
archaeological stuff, but I know of one more article on "land-use" - one
of the things that Jamie Armstrong asked about in the original post. By
land-use, I mean stuff that comes under the term "human geography" -
like distribution and history of settlements, roads, population,
agriculture, and so forth. Not sure if that is what you (Jamie) are
after, or whether you mean more specific archaeological excavations
stuff.

Anyway, the article is rather short. It is called "Who Mends the
Roads? - Superstructures without substructures", by Richard Allen, in
the booklet "Travel and Communications in Tolkien's World" - gathering
papers given at a seminar in 1996, and published by the Tolkien Society.
It briefly discusses how the roads we see at the time of the War of the
Ring seem to be a remnant of a road system built by the Numenorean
Realms in Exile at the height of their power. Of course, the ultimate
example of "land-use" is the clearing of the forests by the Numenoreans
for their ships!

As for "monumentality", I vaguely remember trying to list all the M-E
monumental architecture at some point. All I remember is that there are
rather a lot of these structures scattered around the landscape.

Jamie mentioned the barrows and standing stones, and I can only suggest
making a list of the other structures (towers, other grave sites such as
where Morwen was buried, the pukel-men statues, the statue of that
Gondorian king that Sam and Frodo discover, the Stone of Erech, the
grave of Elendil, that rather large monumental ruin called Khazad-dum,
and so on). Then you could search for what others have said about these
structures and see if that helps.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #247977 ] So, 16 April 2006 00:32
ssmmbfcs  
Christopher wrote:

> Jamie mentioned the barrows and standing stones, and I can only suggest
> making a list of the other structures (towers, other grave sites such as

Hi!

That the purpose of mentioning Arda Encyclopedia, it has separata for
in PLACES for:
Cities & Buildings
Others (roads, graves, walls, etc.)


ssmmbfcs
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #254110 ] Di, 18 April 2006 14:39
Linwe  
As Tolkein was deep into medieval history and such, i think it would be
a really good idea to look at things like beowulf and sutton hoo. there
are many huge comparisons at least between beowulf and LotR and there
is a ship burial in beowulf of which the only example we have today is
sutton hoo. also, the country in which beowulf is set is often referred
to as 'middle earth'. hope that helps/is interesting
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256590 ] Di, 25 April 2006 06:30
Sean  
Jamie Armstrong wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone was aware of any books, articles or even
> reliable websites tackling Middle-earth as an archaeological site?

I'd like to learn more...

Seems to me that England has prehistoric barrow sites; "long"
barrows and "round" ones. Whether these barrows have wights
or not I don't know.

Sean
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256657 ] So, 30 April 2006 16:18
Jamie Armstrong  
Speaking Clock wrote:
> Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>
>>Hello to everyone (or at least, to everyone who remembers me. Or even
>>*anyone* who remembers me...)!
>
> I remember you. :) Didn't I hear a message from you read out on Radio 5
> one night?
>
That was me! Every now and then I get frustrated, and decide to chip in
myself.
>
>>I was wondering if anyone was aware of any books, articles or even
>>reliable websites tackling Middle-earth as an archaeological site?
>>Obviously I'm aware of Brian Bates dubious 'The Real Middle Earth',
>>and Karen Fonstad's 'Atlas of Middle-Earth, but is there anything
>>else out there? I particularly interested in anything exploring stuff
>>like land-use, monumentality, settlements, death, ritual etc, and
>>trying to explore what it means in the context of Middle-earth
>>itself. Also, anything that tries a comparative study between 'real
>>world' archaeology and what we have in Middle-earth (barrows,
>>standing stones etc), and whether Tolkien uses them in a different
>>way.
>
> Sounds absolutely fascinating - PLEASE WRITE IT! :) :)

Well, at the moment I'm not online at home, so the only time I get
access to the internet is at work (or when I'm doing my own research in
the library, which is why I'm here on a Sunday...). But it is a topic I
think is worth exploring, so I will try and produce something. But it
may take a while!

Jamie
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256658 ] So, 30 April 2006 16:24
Jamie Armstrong  
Steuard Jensen wrote:

> Quoth Jamie Armstrong <j.d.armstrong [at] durham.ac.uk> in article
> <e1gjd3$34l$1 [at] heffalump.dur.ac.uk>:
>
>> I was wondering if anyone was aware of any books, articles or even
>> reliable websites tackling Middle-earth as an archaeological site?
>
> The nearest I can think of is Peter Jackson's early interviews about
> the feel he was hoping to achieve in his movies. :) I don't think
> that's really what you're looking for, though.
>
Errr... not really no. But I'll have a look at the extended edition
documentaries again: I've not actually watched them since RotK came out,
and I only watched that once!

> One major sticking point is the scarcity of published books about
> Middle-earth from a "story internal" perspective on any topic: I think
> that most writers (and most publishing houses) consider such things to
> be "fannish" and not worth spending time on. So when you say you're
> interested in topics from archaeology "in the context of Middle-earth
> itself", I suspect that you're going to have trouble finding it in a
> published text.
>
Well, that was my feeling too: I've come across one or two things which
kind've glance at it from that angle, but not head-on.

> But then again, I can't think of any websites on the topic, either
> (not that I've tried to keep track of everything out there), and I
> don't recall any particular discussions along those lines here,
> either. It may be that relatively few people have considered these
> questions before, even though they do sound quite interesting. I'd be
> interested to hear if you have clever ideas of your own along these
> lines.

Well, I always have ideas: whether they're clever or not is another
matter...

<snip>

>> Jamie (one-time regular, but been AWOL for 3 years...)
>
> It says something about my own recent irregularity that it didn't
> really register that you hadn't been posting recently. :) I've been
> insanely busy with research papers and job searches for quite some
> time now, and I've got a sizeable chunk of busy time left to go (or
> perhaps a whole career's worth!).

Tell me about it.

Jamie
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256659 ] So, 30 April 2006 16:26
Jamie Armstrong  
Yuk Tang wrote:

> sbjensen [at] midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in
> news:Nz__f.13$45.2171 [at] news.uchicago.edu:
>
>>Quoth Jamie Armstrong <j.d.armstrong [at] durham.ac.uk> in article
>><e1gjd3$34l$1 [at] heffalump.dur.ac.uk>:
>>
<snip>
>
> The closest I can think of in any kind of quantity is Martinez's many
> articles treating ME as a real organic world.

I'll give that a google.

> Somehow I don't think
> that's a popular bibliography, although the flamewars that might
> result could be entertaining.

And there was me thinking things might've got more civilised since I was
last around... ;)

Jamie
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256660 ] So, 30 April 2006 16:42
Jamie Armstrong  
Jamie Andrews; real address [at] bottom of message wrote:

> In article <e1gjd3$34l$1 [at] heffalump.dur.ac.uk> you wrote:
>
>>Hello to everyone (or at least, to everyone who remembers me. Or even
>>*anyone* who remembers me...)!
>
> Hi Jamie, yes I remember you... In particular, I remember
> there is an archaeological site (on South Ronaldsay) that I envy
> you having visited. :-)
>
Orkney's fantastic: well worth making the effort! Although I may have
already told you that... :)
>
>>I was wondering if anyone was aware of any books, articles or even
>>reliable websites tackling Middle-earth as an archaeological site?
>
>
> This might not be the kind of thing you are looking for,
> but have you seen the rather curious page "Tales from the
> Prancing Pony"? Its premise is that some Victorian British
> travellers "went to Middle-earth for a trip" and reported on
> their travels in a now-hard-to-find book. Middle-earth is now
> also Victorian, with railways, ugly docks etc. A "modern-day"
> commentator also interjects every once in a while saying what
> the areas being described look like "today". It's extremely
> subtle, not least because it's easy to miss the tiny link at the
> bottom of each page that leads you on to the next page of the story.
>
> http://www.amazonsystems.co.uk/pony/pp.htm
>
That looks fun: I hadn't seen it before, because of a rather lengthy
time away from the 'net. I'm hoping that Carphone Warehouse producing a
cheaper bundle for internet access will spark a price-war in the UK over
the next few months, and then maybe I'll get the internet back in my
life (hurrah!). At the moment things are a bit tight financially, and I
just can't justify paying for line rental when all I want is the internet :(

Jamie
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256661 ] So, 30 April 2006 16:52
Jamie Armstrong  
ssmmbfcs wrote:

> In http://www.telefonic.net/web2/franciscojaqueti/cgeh/cgeh.htm (web
> page of the Geographic and Historic Group of the Spanish Tolkien
> Society)

This link seems to be dead :(
>
<snip>
>
> In the page of the Tolkien Society there is an article related to
> funerary rituals:
> http://www.tolkiensociety.org/ed/death.html
>
That looked interesting.

<snip>
>
> A few bits form The Road To Middle-earth (3rd. ed., 2003) or J. R. R.
> Tolkien: author of the Century (2001) by Shippey.

I really should get round to buying this one day...

<snip>
>
> Despite all this is not specifically about archaeology, I hope it could
> be of some utility.
>
That was an excellent list: should keep me out of mischief for a while :)

Jamie
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256662 ] So, 30 April 2006 16:58
Jamie Armstrong  
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> ssmmbfcs <fernandofcsmx [at] yahoo.com.mx> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>Despite all this is not specifically about archaeology, I hope it
>>could be of some utility.
>
> Thanks for those interesting links and suggestions.
>
> It got me thinking more about this, and I can't really think of specific
> archaeological stuff, but I know of one more article on "land-use" - one
> of the things that Jamie Armstrong asked about in the original post. By
> land-use, I mean stuff that comes under the term "human geography" -
> like distribution and history of settlements, roads, population,
> agriculture, and so forth. Not sure if that is what you (Jamie) are
> after, or whether you mean more specific archaeological excavations
> stuff.
>
This stuff too: archaeology isn't all about digging :) A big area is
landscape survey which looks at exactly all those things you mentioned.

> Anyway, the article is rather short. It is called "Who Mends the
> Roads? - Superstructures without substructures", by Richard Allen, in
> the booklet "Travel and Communications in Tolkien's World" - gathering
> papers given at a seminar in 1996, and published by the Tolkien Society.
> It briefly discusses how the roads we see at the time of the War of the
> Ring seem to be a remnant of a road system built by the Numenorean
> Realms in Exile at the height of their power. Of course, the ultimate
> example of "land-use" is the clearing of the forests by the Numenoreans
> for their ships!
>
Yes, I'd forgotten about that. Of course there's a clear parallel with
post-medieval England - it's always claimed that much of the English
countryside was heavily deforested to keep building ships for the navy
(whether you believe it is another matter).

> As for "monumentality", I vaguely remember trying to list all the M-E
> monumental architecture at some point. All I remember is that there are
> rather a lot of these structures scattered around the landscape.
>
Yes, lots!

> Jamie mentioned the barrows and standing stones, and I can only suggest
> making a list of the other structures (towers, other grave sites such as
> where Morwen was buried, the pukel-men statues, the statue of that
> Gondorian king that Sam and Frodo discover, the Stone of Erech, the
> grave of Elendil, that rather large monumental ruin called Khazad-dum,
> and so on). Then you could search for what others have said about these
> structures and see if that helps.
>
Good point. It'll take a while though... Then again, I don't have a life
anyway, so what else am I going to do? ;)

Jamie
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256663 ] So, 30 April 2006 17:10
Jamie Armstrong  
Linwe wrote:

> As Tolkein was deep into medieval history and such, i think it would be
> a really good idea to look at things like beowulf and sutton hoo.

Don't worry: that's on my list :)

> there
> are many huge comparisons at least between beowulf and LotR and there
> is a ship burial in beowulf of which the only example we have today is
> sutton hoo.

Actually, there are other examples: there was a second boat burial at
Sutton Hoo which Martin Carver excavated
( http://www.archaeology.co.uk/ca/timeline/saxon/suttonhoo/cem etery/carver.htm),
and there is also the Snape boat burial, which although not as large or
as lavish as the Sutton Hoo examples would still give some idea of what
high-status burials could be like in early medieval England if Sutton
Hoo had not been discovered.

Jamie
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256664 ] So, 30 April 2006 17:16
Christopher Kreuzer  
j d armstrong(at)durham ac uk <j.d.armstrong [at] durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
>> ssmmbfcs <fernandofcsmx [at] yahoo.com.mx> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Despite all this is not specifically about archaeology, I hope it
>>> could be of some utility.
>>
>> Thanks for those interesting links and suggestions.
>>
>> It got me thinking more about this, and I can't really think of
>> specific archaeological stuff, but I know of one more article on
>> "land-use" - one of the things that Jamie Armstrong asked about in
>> the original post. By land-use, I mean stuff that comes under the
>> term "human geography" - like distribution and history of
>> settlements, roads, population, agriculture, and so forth. Not sure
>> if that is what you (Jamie) are after, or whether you mean more
>> specific archaeological excavations stuff.
>>
> This stuff too: archaeology isn't all about digging :) A big area is
> landscape survey which looks at exactly all those things you
> mentioned.

Hmm. A "landscape survey" of Middle-earth has a nice ring to it! I look
forward to reading about it!

>> Anyway, the article is rather short. It is called "Who Mends the
>> Roads? - Superstructures without substructures", by Richard Allen, in
>> the booklet "Travel and Communications in Tolkien's World" -
>> gathering papers given at a seminar in 1996, and published by the
>> Tolkien Society. It briefly discusses how the roads we see at the
>> time of the War of the Ring seem to be a remnant of a road system
>> built by the Numenorean Realms in Exile at the height of their
>> power. Of course, the ultimate example of "land-use" is the clearing
>> of the forests by the Numenoreans for their ships!
>>
> Yes, I'd forgotten about that. Of course there's a clear parallel with
> post-medieval England - it's always claimed that much of the English
> countryside was heavily deforested to keep building ships for the navy
> (whether you believe it is another matter).

Can they not prove it either way?

<snip>

>> Jamie mentioned the barrows and standing stones, and I can only
>> suggest making a list of the other structures (towers, other grave
>> sites such as where Morwen was buried, the pukel-men statues, the
>> statue of that Gondorian king that Sam and Frodo discover, the Stone
>> of Erech, the grave of Elendil, that rather large monumental ruin
>> called Khazad-dum, and so on). Then you could search for what others
>> have said about these structures and see if that helps.
>>
> Good point. It'll take a while though... Then again, I don't have a
> life anyway, so what else am I going to do? ;)

You could even plot things on a map and see if there are any patterns.
There might not be though - especially if Tolkien didn't intend for
there to be any patterns. One monument I've always been interested in is
the one mentioned in the Appendices, the one erected to mark where the
"King of the Sea" (Ar-Pharazon) landed and marched to accept the
'surrender' of Sauron:

"Though great evil had come after, even the followers of Elendil
remembered with pride the coming of the great host of Ar-Pharazon out of
the deeps of the Sea; and on the highest hill of the headland above the
Haven they had set a great white pillar as a monument. It was crowned
with a globe of crystal that took the rays of the Sun and of the Moon
and shone like a bright star that could be seen in clear weather even on
the coasts of Gondor or far out upon the western sea. So it stood, until
after the second arising of Sauron, which now approached, Umbar fell
under the domination of his servants, and the memorial of his
humiliation was thrown down.'" (Appendix AIiv - Gondor and the Heirs of
Anarion)

Hmm. I was vaguely disappointed (for a brief moment) that we can't visit
this monument, as it has been "thrown down". Then I remembered that this
was, um, just a story! :-)

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

"This tale grew in the telling, until it became a history of the Great
War of the Ring..." - J.R.R. Tolkien (Foreward to LotR)
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256665 ] So, 30 April 2006 17:24
Jamie Armstrong  
Sean wrote:

> Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>
>>I was wondering if anyone was aware of any books, articles or even
>>reliable websites tackling Middle-earth as an archaeological site?
>
> I'd like to learn more...
>
> Seems to me that England has prehistoric barrow sites; "long"
> barrows and "round" ones.

Also saucer, disc, bell, bowl and pond... (see
http://www.roman-britain.org/chase/_tumuli.htm) Tolkien appears to have
a number of different types of barrow in Middle-earth:

“About midday they came to a hill whose top was wide and flattened, like
a saucer, with a green mounded rim." This would appear to be a pond or
saucer barrow. "[Frodo] turned his glance eastwards, and he saw that on
that side the hills were higher and looked down upon them; and all those
hill were crowned with green mounds..." bell or bowl barrows? Or perhaps
long barrows.

> Whether these barrows have wights or not I don't know.
>
I bet for the people nearby they did!

What is interesting, and what prompted this whole idea in the first
place, is that Tolkien has an apparently unique feature with his barrows
- he places standing stones on top:

"...all those hill were crowned with green mounds, and on some were
standing stones, pointing upwards like jagged teeth out of green gums."

I've asked a few colleagues and none of use can think of any definite
examples of this in the real world (although it's always possible they
were later removed).

Jamie
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256710 ] Mo, 01 Mai 2006 22:42
Yuk Tang  
"j d armstrong(at)durham ac uk" <j.d.armstrong [at] durham.ac.uk> wrote
in news:e32jb4$fst$1 [at] heffalump.dur.ac.uk:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> ssmmbfcs <fernandofcsmx [at] yahoo.com.mx> wrote:
>>
>>>Despite all this is not specifically about archaeology, I hope it
>>>could be of some utility.
>>
>> Thanks for those interesting links and suggestions.
>>
>> It got me thinking more about this, and I can't really think of
>> specific archaeological stuff, but I know of one more article on
>> "land-use" - one of the things that Jamie Armstrong asked about
>> in the original post. By land-use, I mean stuff that comes under
>> the term "human geography" - like distribution and history of
>> settlements, roads, population, agriculture, and so forth. Not
>> sure if that is what you (Jamie) are after, or whether you mean
>> more specific archaeological excavations stuff.
>>
> This stuff too: archaeology isn't all about digging :) A big area
> is landscape survey which looks at exactly all those things you
> mentioned.

I once got into a discussion about the economy of Gondor vis a vis
the maintenance of forts inside Mordor. I dunno if that counts as
archaeology, but it certainly counts as saddo Tolkien obsession. I
believe there was a subthread with Christopher about the layout of
Minas Ithil and its viability as a supply route for those forts in
the interior.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #256711 ] Mo, 01 Mai 2006 23:20
Christopher Kreuzer  
Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> "j d armstrong(at)durham ac uk" <j.d.armstrong [at] durham.ac.uk> wrote

<snip>

>> archaeology isn't all about digging :) A big area
>> is landscape survey which looks at exactly all those things you
>> mentioned.
>
> I once got into a discussion about the economy of Gondor vis a vis
> the maintenance of forts inside Mordor. I dunno if that counts as
> archaeology, but it certainly counts as saddo Tolkien obsession. I
> believe there was a subthread with Christopher about the layout of
> Minas Ithil and its viability as a supply route for those forts in
> the interior.

That wasn't with me. I think that you mean the subthread starting here
in the 'Mount Doom' LotR CotW thread, where you mention essays by
Martinez, and then get into discussion with various other people:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.fan.tolkien/msg/30d2726 f69284397

And also this message (the one that mentions Minas Ithil):

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.fan.tolkien/msg/d8ee183 a9c1427cc

Click on the thread links at the top to read through the whole subthread
and the replies. Sadly, it pretty quickly ended up talking about the
author, rather than the essay, and I don't mean Tolkien...

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Re: Tolkien and archaeology [message #261927 ] Fr, 05 Mai 2006 21:38
Me  
In rec.arts.books.tolkien "j d armstrong(at)durham ac uk" <j.d.armstrong [at] durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> What is interesting, and what prompted this whole idea in the first
> place, is that Tolkien has an apparently unique feature with his barrows
> - he places standing stones on top:
> "...all those hill were crowned with green mounds, and on some were
> standing stones, pointing upwards like jagged teeth out of green gums."
> I've asked a few colleagues and none of use can think of any definite
> examples of this in the real world (although it's always possible they
> were later removed).

Hmm, some of the "menhirs" of Brittany and elsewhere in
continental Europe are on top of tumuli, according to

http://members.tripod.com/Menhirs/menhir.html

....although none of the tumuli (mounds?) are themselves on tops
of hills, as far as I can tell. I wonder if Tolkien is saying
that there is more than one standing stone on each hill, or just
one standing stone on each hill that has one. In any case, he
may have had menhirs in mind.

--Jamie. (efil4dreN)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
[at] csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Vorheriges Thema:OT - but rather hypnotic
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