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Fantasy » alt.fan.harry-potter » Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking
Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247720] Fr, 14 April 2006 20:25
JNH  
OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
me?"
Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!

Let the flames begin!
:-)
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247724 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 20:41
rc  
JNH wrote:
> OK, this may have been discussed to death,
I just listened to the audio book of
> Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
> Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
> me?"
> Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!
>
> Let the flames begin!
> :-)


I have been reading all the discussions and havn't commented until now.
Harry is not a horcrux. If he was, Voldermort would want to keep him
safe and secure, not kill him.

RC
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247725 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 20:48
Notifier Deamon  
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247729 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 21:29
aaron  
JNH wrote:
> OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
> try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
> Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
> Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
> me?"
> Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!

*puts fist through JNH's stomach*

*leaves a bit of skin behind*

There. There's your friggin' horcrux. HTH. HAND.

-Aaron
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247733 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 21:50
wadkin2000  
Aaron wrote:
> JNH wrote:
> > OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
> > try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
> > Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
> > Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
> > me?"
> > Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!
>
> *puts fist through JNH's stomach*
>
> *leaves a bit of skin behind*
>
> There. There's your friggin' horcrux. HTH. HAND.
>
> -Aaron


Aaron, please, let's all "play nicely! :-)

JNH, to answer your post...Yes, this subject has been discussed to
death and is presently being discussed to death on the thread, "Why I
think Harry is a Horcrux".
There are some on this group who think he is definitely not; some who
think he definitely is; and some who think that if he is, it happened
accidentally the night V tried to AK him.
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247734 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 21:55
Steven Sousa  
rc wrote:

> I have been reading all the discussions and havn't commented until now.
> Harry is not a horcrux. If he was, Voldermort would want to keep him
> safe and secure, not kill him.

That doesn't follow. Voldemort certainly has plans to kill lots more
people in the near future. He can certainly make more horcruxes to
replace Harry. Or, it's possible that Harry is a horcrux by mistake, in
which case the thought of a piece of his soul inside a fundamentally
good wizard like Harry is very disturbing to Voldemort.
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247738 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 23:00
Kish  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Aaron wrote:
>
>>JNH wrote:
>>
>>>OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
>>>try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
>>>Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
>>>Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
>>>me?"
>>>Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!
>>
>>*puts fist through JNH's stomach*
>>
>>*leaves a bit of skin behind*
>>
>>There. There's your friggin' horcrux. HTH. HAND.
>>
>>-Aaron
>
>
>
> Aaron, please, let's all "play nicely! :-)
>
> JNH, to answer your post...Yes, this subject has been discussed to
> death and is presently being discussed to death on the thread, "Why I
> think Harry is a Horcrux".
> There are some on this group who think he is definitely not; some who
> think he definitely is; and some who think that if he is, it happened
> accidentally the night V tried to AK him.

However, as Aaron--ah--rather crudely points out, there is in any case a
huge gaping chasm between the Harry line quoted and "the definition of a
Horcrux." There is currently a bit of a chicken which I ate recently in
me; I am pretty sure that does not make me a Horcrux for that chicken,
and in fact that chicken is already dead, making the result rather an
anti-Horcrux.
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247739 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 23:10
JNH  
Aaron, who after this shall be reffered to as "Lefty" pulls his arm back and
stares in horror at the mangled, bloody stump that once was a hand. Forgot
about the belt buckle! "No more piano lessons," he grinned.
=========

"Aaron" <aaronsan [at] msn.com> wrote in message
news:1145042951.612508.307650 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
> JNH wrote:
>> OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
>> try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
>> Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
>> Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
>> me?"
>> Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!
>
> *puts fist through JNH's stomach*
>
> *leaves a bit of skin behind*
>
> There. There's your friggin' horcrux. HTH. HAND.
>
> -Aaron
>
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247740 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 23:39
Lady Grey  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Aaron wrote:
> > JNH wrote:
> > > OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
> > > try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
> > > Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
> > > Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
> > > me?"

That above quote is the biggest hint that harry has LV's soulbit in
him. But i think that notion also explains the following;

1) How Harry has LV's powers and other traits the Sorting Hat noticed
in him.
2) Why, in CoS, "Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't

just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he knew
the diary was blank, he kept absentmindedly picking it up and turning
the pages, as though it were a story he wanted to finish. And while
Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it
still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a
friend he'd had when he was very small, and had halfforgotten. But this

was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made
sure of that."
3)How Harry is able to drift into LV's mind
4)Why Harry feels pain when LV is near

> > > Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!

Sounds to me like you ought to be in the Harry is a horcrux club! Blon,
Jano, Toon and I would love to recruit a 5th! :) Our raisons d'etre are
1) Spread the idea that harry is a horcrux to newbies and try to get
regulars to see that it is not such a crazy notion (this is what most
here seem to think)
2) Defend the possibililty that harry is a horcrux at all opportunities

until such a time where is might become impossible to defend
3) Put thinking cap on about where JKR might intend to take this idea;
like why would JKR make harry a horcrux? what significance could it
have to the plot?

<jumps up and down excitedly> wanna in? wanna, wanna wanna? <sits back
down>

> JNH, to answer your post...Yes, this subject has been discussed to
> death and is presently being discussed to death on the thread, "Why I
> think Harry is a Horcrux".
> There are some on this group who think he is definitely not; some who
> think he definitely is; and some who think that if he is, it happened
> accidentally the night V tried to AK him.

I am in the latter group, here's how I think harry was accidentally
made a horcrux that night:
1. V kills lily, causing a fresh rip in his soul. But he is not
interested in utilising this rip to make a horcrux.
2. V sends AK on harry and then V sets about doing the horcrux creating
spell.
3. while V is concentrating on this he doesn't notice the Ak
rebounding, remember he has cast AK many times without anything going
wrong so he hasn't the slightest notion that it might go wrong.
4. He has magically taken his soulbit out of himself (not realising it
is the soulbit ripped as a result of Lily's murder) and is about to
bind it to the object he brought with him when the rebounded AK hits
him.
5. This causes V to lose control of the horcrux-creating spell and the
soulbit is directed towards harry instead of the object LV must have
brought with him.
6. The horcrux-creating spell hits harry on the then newly created cut
(which is now his scar) and it becomes a horcrux and LV doesn't realise
it as he is being painfully ripped from his body while it happened.

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247742 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 00:04
pooter  
JNH [JNH [at] JNH.com] said
> OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
> try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
> Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
> Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
> me?"
> Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!
>
> Let the flames begin!

Why do you expect to be flamed for your opinion?

Anyways. First that is not a definition of a horcrux and second, why
would voldermort first split his soul and pop a bit in Harry and then
try to murder him and then repeatedly try to murder him again and again
even when one of his [other] horcruxes has been destroyed?

Next you will be suggesting that Dumbledore is still alive and that
Snape is a baddy! :-)
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247744 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 00:23
wadkin2000  
Jane Grey wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > Aaron wrote:
> > > JNH wrote:
> > > > OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
> > > > try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
> > > > Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
> > > > Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
> > > > me?"
>
> That above quote is the biggest hint that harry has LV's soulbit in
> him. But i think that notion also explains the following;
>
> 1) How Harry has LV's powers and other traits the Sorting Hat noticed
> in him.
> 2) Why, in CoS, "Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't
>
> just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he knew
> the diary was blank, he kept absentmindedly picking it up and turning
> the pages, as though it were a story he wanted to finish. And while
> Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it
> still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a
> friend he'd had when he was very small, and had halfforgotten. But this
>
> was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made
> sure of that."
> 3)How Harry is able to drift into LV's mind
> 4)Why Harry feels pain when LV is near
>
> > > > Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!
>
> Sounds to me like you ought to be in the Harry is a horcrux club! Blon,
> Jano, Toon and I would love to recruit a 5th! :) Our raisons d'etre are
> 1) Spread the idea that harry is a horcrux to newbies and try to get
> regulars to see that it is not such a crazy notion (this is what most
> here seem to think)
> 2) Defend the possibililty that harry is a horcrux at all opportunities
>
> until such a time where is might become impossible to defend
> 3) Put thinking cap on about where JKR might intend to take this idea;
> like why would JKR make harry a horcrux? what significance could it
> have to the plot?
>
> <jumps up and down excitedly> wanna in? wanna, wanna wanna? <sits back
> down>
>
> > JNH, to answer your post...Yes, this subject has been discussed to
> > death and is presently being discussed to death on the thread, "Why I
> > think Harry is a Horcrux".
> > There are some on this group who think he is definitely not; some who
> > think he definitely is; and some who think that if he is, it happened
> > accidentally the night V tried to AK him.
>
> I am in the latter group, here's how I think harry was accidentally
> made a horcrux that night:
> 1. V kills lily, causing a fresh rip in his soul. But he is not
> interested in utilising this rip to make a horcrux.
> 2. V sends AK on harry and then V sets about doing the horcrux creating
> spell.
> 3. while V is concentrating on this he doesn't notice the Ak
> rebounding, remember he has cast AK many times without anything going
> wrong so he hasn't the slightest notion that it might go wrong.
> 4. He has magically taken his soulbit out of himself (not realising it
> is the soulbit ripped as a result of Lily's murder) and is about to
> bind it to the object he brought with him when the rebounded AK hits
> him.
> 5. This causes V to lose control of the horcrux-creating spell and the
> soulbit is directed towards harry instead of the object LV must have
> brought with him.
> 6. The horcrux-creating spell hits harry on the then newly created cut
> (which is now his scar) and it becomes a horcrux and LV doesn't realise
> it as he is being painfully ripped from his body while it happened.
>
> --
> Jane Grey


Jane, I do respect your opinion on the whole "Harry is a horcrux"
theory, but I do have a question: Considering the fact that this is
the first time in wizarding history the AK failed, AND its caster was
V, that there's a possibility the connection between Harry & LV was a
result of the failed AK and not the result of a misdirected horcrux
attempt?
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247745 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 00:53
Thomas Madura  
JNH wrote:
> OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
> try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
> Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
> Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
> me?"
> Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!
>
> Let the flames begin!
> :-)
>
>

No - it is not a definition of a Horcrux. THere is no place that says a
Horcrux tranfers magical powers along with the soul bit - and it does
not appear that RIddle has lost much power (SPOILER - in later Books -
Riddle and DD fight - shouldn't have been much of a surprise to you though)
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247746 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 00:55
Thomas Madura  
pooter wrote:

> JNH [JNH [at] JNH.com] said
>
>>OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
>>try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
>>Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
>>Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
>>me?"
>>Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!
>>
>>Let the flames begin!
>
>
> Why do you expect to be flamed for your opinion?
>
> Anyways. First that is not a definition of a horcrux and second, why
> would voldermort first split his soul and pop a bit in Harry and then
> try to murder him and then repeatedly try to murder him again and again
> even when one of his [other] horcruxes has been destroyed?
>
> Next you will be suggesting that Dumbledore is still alive and that
> Snape is a baddy! :-)


Gee - go ahead - Give it all away.

JNH just listened to COS - and Dumbledore is still alive and Snape is a
Baddy!
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247749 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 01:05
Lady Grey  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
<snip>
> Jane, I do respect your opinion on the whole "Harry is a horcrux"
> theory, but I do have a question: Considering the fact that this is
> the first time in wizarding history the AK failed, AND its caster was
> V, that there's a possibility the connection between Harry & LV was a
> result of the failed AK and not the result of a misdirected horcrux
> attempt?

Seeing as AK was invented to kill I just don't see how it can cause
power transferal and a mental link just cause it rebounded? afterall
it's not the magical mysterious curse, it's the killing curse. I mean,
you can see why an AK might leave a cut upon rebounding, or why it
blows up inaminate objects... but causing a power transfer and a mental
link just doesn't seem at all likely for a spell whose purpose is to
kill.

However I do believe that circa PS/SS and CoS we were lead to believe
that mysterious things happened that night, including:
1) A baby survived the AK curse
2) LV was weakened ("his powers broke" as hagrid put it) but didn't die
3) Harry acquired LV's abilities and triats

But end of PS/SS we find out explicity why number 1) happened (i.e
Lily's protection) then in HBP we find out how number 2) happened (i.e
LV has horcruxes) but we are yet to hear anything concrete on how 3)
happened. This is why I believe this issue will be addressed in book7,
but then you've got to wonder why has JKR waited until the last book to
address this question? maybe because she's got a twist in mind which
relates to it (you've noticed how she likes her twists? how she often
comprises character consistency inorder to provide plot twists?); the
possible twist could be like the only one who can defeat LV finding out
that he is a horcrux of LV's...

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247750 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 01:12
Lady Grey  
pooter wrote:
> JNH [JNH [at] JNH.com] said
> > OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
> > try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
> > Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
> > Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
> > me?"
> > Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!
> >
> > Let the flames begin!
>
> Why do you expect to be flamed for your opinion?
>
> Anyways. First that is not a definition of a horcrux and second, why
> would voldermort first split his soul and pop a bit in Harry and then
> try to murder him and then repeatedly try to murder him again and again
> even when one of his [other] horcruxes has been destroyed?

If harry is a horcrux then LV unintentionaly made him so. This fits in
with what Dumbledore tells harry in CoS (about the power transfer being
unintentional). Whether LV is aware of it now he would still want
harry dead because he has other horcruxes (he doesn't need harry's
being a horcrux) and he rather that the only person who can defeat him
to be dead because /that/ would ensure his immortality.

> Next you will be suggesting that Dumbledore is still alive and that
> Snape is a baddy! :-)

now /those/ would be ridiculous suggestions! :)

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247751 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 01:26
wadkin2000  
Jane Grey wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> <snip>
> > Jane, I do respect your opinion on the whole "Harry is a horcrux"
> > theory, but I do have a question: Considering the fact that this is
> > the first time in wizarding history the AK failed, AND its caster was
> > V, that there's a possibility the connection between Harry & LV was a
> > result of the failed AK and not the result of a misdirected horcrux
> > attempt?
>
> Seeing as AK was invented to kill I just don't see how it can cause
> power transferal and a mental link just cause it rebounded? afterall
> it's not the magical mysterious curse, it's the killing curse. I mean,
> you can see why an AK might leave a cut upon rebounding, or why it
> blows up inaminate objects... but causing a power transfer and a mental
> link just doesn't seem at all likely for a spell whose purpose is to
> kill.
>
> However I do believe that circa PS/SS and CoS we were lead to believe
> that mysterious things happened that night, including:
> 1) A baby survived the AK curse
> 2) LV was weakened ("his powers broke" as hagrid put it) but didn't die
> 3) Harry acquired LV's abilities and triats
>
> But end of PS/SS we find out explicity why number 1) happened (i.e
> Lily's protection) then in HBP we find out how number 2) happened (i.e
> LV has horcruxes) but we are yet to hear anything concrete on how 3)
> happened. This is why I believe this issue will be addressed in book7,
> but then you've got to wonder why has JKR waited until the last book to
> address this question? maybe because she's got a twist in mind which
> relates to it (you've noticed how she likes her twists? how she often
> comprises character consistency inorder to provide plot twists?); the
> possible twist could be like the only one who can defeat LV finding out
> that he is a horcrux of LV's...
>
> --
> Jane Grey


But won't you at least concede that there's a possibility that because
the whole scene never happened before, there's a chance the transferral
occurred because of the failed AK?

On another note, just as a BTW, I'm watching GOF now, and thinking how
sad it is that there's only going to be seven books. There is such a
wealth of good fiction with these characters and the Potterverse that
JK has created. It's such a shame that all of this won't be explored
anymore. Oh, well, I guess there's always fanfics!
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247755 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 01:48
Lady Grey  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
> > wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
<snip>
> But won't you at least concede that there's a possibility that because
> the whole scene never happened before, there's a chance the transferral
> occurred because of the failed AK?

I think that is the impression that JKR meant to give us. But note that
it is never explicity stated in any of the books.

Anyhow, even according to my theory, the transferal did occur due to
the AK failing -if it hadn't rebounded upon LV, the horcrux-creating
spell wouldn't have got misdirected at harry :)

> On another note, just as a BTW, I'm watching GOF now, and thinking how
> sad it is that there's only going to be seven books. There is such a

but concidering what sort of writer JKR is, i can see why she planned a
finite about of books -the mystery, hints and plot twists cannot go on
forever...

> wealth of good fiction with these characters and the Potterverse that
> JK has created. It's such a shame that all of this won't be explored
> anymore. Oh, well, I guess there's always fanfics!

yeah but most of them are pretty lame and twist the characters so that
they are barely recognisable... google for Tabitha Jones' Lily stories,
they are the only good fanfics I have come across!

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247756 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 01:52
Lady Grey  
wadkin2... [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
> > wadkin2... [at] yahoo.com wrote:
<snip>
> But won't you at least concede that there's a possibility that because
> the whole scene never happened before, there's a chance the transferral
> occurred because of the failed AK?

I think that is the impression that JKR meant to give us. But note that

it is never explicity stated in any of the books.

Anyhow, even according to my theory, the transferal did occur due to
the AK failing -if it hadn't rebounded upon LV, the horcrux-creating
spell wouldn't have got misdirected at harry :)

> On another note, just as a BTW, I'm watching GOF now, and thinking how
> sad it is that there's only going to be seven books. There is such a

but concidering what sort of writer JKR is, i can see why she planned a

finite amount of books -the mystery, hints and plot twists cannot go on

forever...

> wealth of good fiction with these characters and the Potterverse that
> JK has created. It's such a shame that all of this won't be explored
> anymore. Oh, well, I guess there's always fanfics!

yeah but most of them are pretty lame and twist the characters so that
they are barely recognisable... google for Tabitha Jones' Lily stories,

they are the only good fanfics I have come across!

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247757 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 01:59
wadkin2000  
Jane Grey wrote:
> wadkin2... [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > Jane Grey wrote:
> > > wadkin2... [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> <snip>
> > But won't you at least concede that there's a possibility that because
> > the whole scene never happened before, there's a chance the transferral
> > occurred because of the failed AK?
>
> I think that is the impression that JKR meant to give us. But note that
>
> it is never explicity stated in any of the books.
>
> Anyhow, even according to my theory, the transferal did occur due to
> the AK failing -if it hadn't rebounded upon LV, the horcrux-creating
> spell wouldn't have got misdirected at harry :)
>
> > On another note, just as a BTW, I'm watching GOF now, and thinking how
> > sad it is that there's only going to be seven books. There is such a
>
> but concidering what sort of writer JKR is, i can see why she planned a
>
> finite amount of books -the mystery, hints and plot twists cannot go on
>
> forever...
>
> > wealth of good fiction with these characters and the Potterverse that
> > JK has created. It's such a shame that all of this won't be explored
> > anymore. Oh, well, I guess there's always fanfics!
>
> yeah but most of them are pretty lame and twist the characters so that
> they are barely recognisable... google for Tabitha Jones' Lily stories,
>
> they are the only good fanfics I have come across!
>
> --
> Jane Grey


Thanks for the Tabitha Jones info. I'll look into it.
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247758 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 02:08
Lady Grey  
wadkin2... [at] yahoo.com wrote:

> Jane Grey wrote:
> > wadkin2... [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > > Jane Grey wrote:
> > > > wadkin2... [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > But won't you at least concede that there's a possibility that because
> > > the whole scene never happened before, there's a chance the transferral
> > > occurred because of the failed AK?
> >
> > I think that is the impression that JKR meant to give us. But note that
> >
> > it is never explicity stated in any of the books.

also i think when JKR gives us a certain impression through the cunning
use of vagueness, be skeptical, be very skeptical! :)

<snip>
> Thanks for the Tabitha Jones info. I'll look into it.

Don't just look into it, read about Lily's first year at
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Tabitha_Jones/A_Lily_St ory/

than preceed to her 2nd year:
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Tabitha_Jones/The_Beta/

you won't regret it!

sadly i have been waiting for the 6th chapter of the 3rd year's story
for nearly 2yrs :(

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247761 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 02:35
Petrea Mitchell  
At 14 Apr 2006 11:41:11 -0700,
rc <rclovely [at] aol.com> strode forth and proclaimed:

> I have been reading all the discussions and havn't commented until now.
> Harry is not a horcrux. If he was, Voldermort would want to keep him
> safe and secure, not kill him.

Well, if Harry were a Horcrux *and* Voldemort *knew* that Harry had a
bit of V's soul in him, *then* Voldemort would want to keep him safe and
secure, not kill him.


--
/
Petrea Mitchell <|> <|> <pravn [at] m5p.com> <mitchep [at] osm.com>
"I'm poor, I'm Welsh, and I'm not Richard Burton yet. Do you hear me? I'm
poor, I'm Welsh, and I'm NOT RICHARD BURTON YET!" ---MST3K
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247764 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 02:56
Steven Sousa  
Thom Madura wrote:

> No - it is not a definition of a Horcrux. THere is no place that says a
> Horcrux tranfers magical powers along with the soul bit - and it does
> not appear that RIddle has lost much power (SPOILER - in later Books -
> Riddle and DD fight - shouldn't have been much of a surprise to you though)

On the other hand... Dumbledore does suggest that perhaps part of the
reason Nagini is so well-behaved is that it's a horcrux, which allows
some kind of mental bond between it and LV.
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247765 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 02:57
Kish  
Jane Grey wrote:

> However I do believe that circa PS/SS and CoS we were lead to believe
> that mysterious things happened that night, including:
> 1) A baby survived the AK curse
> 2) LV was weakened ("his powers broke" as hagrid put it) but didn't die
> 3) Harry acquired LV's abilities and triats
>
> But end of PS/SS we find out explicity why number 1) happened (i.e
> Lily's protection) then in HBP we find out how number 2) happened (i.e
> LV has horcruxes) but we are yet to hear anything concrete on how 3)
> happened. This is why I believe this issue will be addressed in book7,
> but then you've got to wonder why has JKR waited until the last book to
> address this question?

Not quite. I'm not convinced she considers it something that needs to
be addressed. What magical mechanical issues has she explained in
detail? I can't think of any. Harry's father was an Animagus; when
Harry shouts "Accio Rosmerta's Brooms!" two brooms come flying to him;
when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at Harry and it bounced due to Lily's
protection and struck Voldemort down, it transferred some of Voldemort's
powers to Harry. Statements--not explanations.
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247792 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 11:40
Lady Grey  
Kish wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
>
> > However I do believe that circa PS/SS and CoS we were lead to believe
> > that mysterious things happened that night, including:
> > 1) A baby survived the AK curse
> > 2) LV was weakened ("his powers broke" as hagrid put it) but didn't die
> > 3) Harry acquired LV's abilities and triats
> >
> > But end of PS/SS we find out explicity why number 1) happened (i.e
> > Lily's protection) then in HBP we find out how number 2) happened (i.e
> > LV has horcruxes) but we are yet to hear anything concrete on how 3)
> > happened. This is why I believe this issue will be addressed in book7,
> > but then you've got to wonder why has JKR waited until the last book to
> > address this question?
>
> Not quite. I'm not convinced she considers it something that needs to
> be addressed. What magical mechanical issues has she explained in
> detail? I can't think of any. Harry's father was an Animagus; when
> Harry shouts "Accio Rosmerta's Brooms!" two brooms come flying to him;
> when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at Harry and it bounced due to Lily's
> protection and struck Voldemort down, it transferred some of Voldemort's
> powers to Harry. Statements--not explanations.

ah but nowhere is it stated that "when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at
Harry ....it transferred some of Voldemort's powers to Harry."

Instead JKR got the idea across to us by being cunning vague about what
exactly went on that night. y'all should know by now that JKR is
sneaky! and vagueness means she's hiding a revelations for a future
book... and since, every HP book has revealed a bit more about what
happened that night, I am sure more will be revealed in book7.

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247793 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 11:42
Lady Grey  
Petrea Mitchell wrote:
> At 14 Apr 2006 11:41:11 -0700,
> rc <rclovely [at] aol.com> strode forth and proclaimed:
>
> > I have been reading all the discussions and havn't commented until now.
> > Harry is not a horcrux. If he was, Voldermort would want to keep him
> > safe and secure, not kill him.
>
> Well, if Harry were a Horcrux *and* Voldemort *knew* that Harry had a
> bit of V's soul in him, *then* Voldemort would want to keep him safe and
> secure, not kill him.

i think even then LV might want harry dead. he has other horcruxes, i
think he'd rather the only person who can defeat him to die than to
have another extra horcrux

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247794 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 12:12
Lady Grey  
Thom Madura wrote:
> JNH wrote:
> > OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
> > try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
> > Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
> > Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
> > me?"
> > Man, if that ain't the definition of a horcrux, I don't know what is!
> >
> > Let the flames begin!
> > :-)
> >
> >
>
> No - it is not a definition of a Horcrux. THere is no place that says a
> Horcrux tranfers magical powers along with the soul bit - and it does
> not appear that RIddle has lost much power (SPOILER - in later Books -
> Riddle and DD fight - shouldn't have been much of a surprise to you though)

I don't believe that quantity of power is spread over the soul in the
way you are suggesting. I think that souls and soulfragments just
contain the ability to do magic and it is up to the person to utilise
that abililty. So if two people were born with duplicate souls and one
went to hogwarts and the other forwent any magical training, the first
would be much more powerful than the 2nd. So, because LV has the
ability to be a powerful dark wizard harry has this ability too (the
sorting hat saw it in him) but harry will never choose to utilise this
ability.

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247796 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 14:33
Thomas Madura  
Jane Grey wrote:
> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>Jane, I do respect your opinion on the whole "Harry is a horcrux"
>>theory, but I do have a question: Considering the fact that this is
>>the first time in wizarding history the AK failed, AND its caster was
>>V, that there's a possibility the connection between Harry & LV was a
>>result of the failed AK and not the result of a misdirected horcrux
>>attempt?
>
>
> Seeing as AK was invented to kill I just don't see how it can cause
> power transferal and a mental link just cause it rebounded? afterall
> it's not the magical mysterious curse, it's the killing curse. I mean,
> you can see why an AK might leave a cut upon rebounding, or why it
> blows up inaminate objects... but causing a power transfer and a mental
> link just doesn't seem at all likely for a spell whose purpose is to
> kill.
>
> However I do believe that circa PS/SS and CoS we were lead to believe
> that mysterious things happened that night, including:
> 1) A baby survived the AK curse
> 2) LV was weakened ("his powers broke" as hagrid put it) but didn't die
> 3) Harry acquired LV's abilities and triats

With the exception of Parceltongue - what powers or traits has Harry
gotten from Riddle. (THe love came from his mother). THe communication
between RIddle and Harry is not really a power - at least not yet.

Harry does not appear to be exceptionally powerful - Hermione is clearly
his equal in power - and superior in smarts.

Harry doesn't appear to have any real interest in Dark Magic to create a
war and take over the wizarding world - like Riddle.

Harry has not put a DARK MARK on his "followers" and asked for complete
allegiance. Nor does he use that same DARK MARK to summon them.

ANd while the only wizard RIDDLE feared is dead - Harry has lots of
live wizards to fear.


And - when Riddle came back - he seems his old abominable powerful self
- no "broken powers" - not apparently weakened.



>
> But end of PS/SS we find out explicity why number 1) happened (i.e
> Lily's protection) then in HBP we find out how number 2) happened (i.e
> LV has horcruxes) but we are yet to hear anything concrete on how 3)
> happened. This is why I believe this issue will be addressed in book7,
> but then you've got to wonder why has JKR waited until the last book to
> address this question? maybe because she's got a twist in mind which
> relates to it (you've noticed how she likes her twists? how she often
> comprises character consistency inorder to provide plot twists?); the
> possible twist could be like the only one who can defeat LV finding out
> that he is a horcrux of LV's...

AND - while Riddle continues to try to kill Harry - it seems unlikely
that he would be willing to give up another soul bit that easily.

ANother thing - if the scar were the result of the Horcrux spell - you
would think it would have been known by at least Dumbledore to be so -
but he never mentioned it.

I cannot believe JKR has set up this story to end it with the Demise of
Harry - so Harry is not a horcrux.


>
> --
> Jane Grey
>
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247803 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 18:27
Zolak of Twylo  
On 2006-04-14 17:39:26 -0400, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> said:

> wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>> Aaron wrote:
>>> JNH wrote:
>>>> OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
>>>> try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
>>>> Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
>>>> Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
>>>> me?"
>
> That above quote is the biggest hint that harry has LV's soulbit in
> him. But i think that notion also explains the following;
>
> 1) How Harry has LV's powers and other traits the Sorting Hat noticed
> in him.
> 2) Why, in CoS, "Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't
> just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he knew
> the diary was blank, he kept absentmindedly picking it up and turning
> the pages, as though it were a story he wanted to finish. And while
> Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it
> still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a
> friend he'd had when he was very small, and had halfforgotten. But this
> was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made
> sure of that."


Why couldn't Ginny throw it away? is she a horcrux, too?


--
Enjoy,

Zolak of Twylo
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247805 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 20:04
Lady Grey  
Zolak of Twylo wrote:
> On 2006-04-14 17:39:26 -0400, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> said:
>
> > wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >> Aaron wrote:
> >>> JNH wrote:
> >>>> OK, this may have been discussed to death, and before you flame me, I DID
> >>>> try to do a little research. But I just listened to the audio book of
> >>>> Chamber of Secrets where Dumbledore tells Harry how he can speak
> >>>> Parselmouth. Then Harry asks, "So he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in
> >>>> me?"
> >
> > That above quote is the biggest hint that harry has LV's soulbit in
> > him. But i think that notion also explains the following;
> >
> > 1) How Harry has LV's powers and other traits the Sorting Hat noticed
> > in him.
> > 2) Why, in CoS, "Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't
> > just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he knew
> > the diary was blank, he kept absentmindedly picking it up and turning
> > the pages, as though it were a story he wanted to finish. And while
> > Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it
> > still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a
> > friend he'd had when he was very small, and had halfforgotten. But this
> > was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made
> > sure of that."
>
>
> Why couldn't Ginny throw it away? is she a horcrux, too?

Ginny did throw it away, she flushed it down the toilets but Moaning
Myrtle brought it back up again and Harry ended up finding it. Anyways
it wasn't like Harry /couldn't/ throw it away, he just found himself
paying more attention to it than one might normally give to blank pages
because the name Tom Riddle seemed familiar to him, even though he'd
never heard of a Tom Riddle before.

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247806 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 20:29
Lady Grey  
Thom Madura wrote:
<snip>
> With the exception of Parceltongue - what powers or traits has Harry
> gotten from Riddle. (THe love came from his mother). THe communication
> between RIddle and Harry is not really a power - at least not yet.

Perphaps I was thinking of when, in CoS, DD says:
"Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many qualities Salazar
Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students. His own very rare gift,
Parseltongue -resourcefulness - determination -- a certain disregard
for rules..."

but reading that section again i guess the "-resourcefulness -
determination -- a certain disregard for rules" could have been from
harry.

> Harry does not appear to be exceptionally powerful - Hermione is clearly
> his equal in power - and superior in smarts.

i wouldn't say that Hermy is clearly equal to harry; they are both good
for different reasons. I see hermy as being a good witch because she
works really hard whereas harry is nearly as good as her at picking
stuff up dispite that fact that he doesn't try half as hard most of the
time. So harry is a good wizard because he has a lot of ability.

When in PoA Harry told Hermy about the wizard who did that really
powerful patronus charm and saved him and Sirius (he thought it might
have been his dad at the time), hermy was amazed, "it must have been a
really powerful wizard, to drive all those dementors away." This
implies that it was magic that hermy didn't think she could do, but as
we find out later, it was harry who did it.

> Harry doesn't appear to have any real interest in Dark Magic to create a
> war and take over the wizarding world - like Riddle.

That is a matter of choice not ability

> Harry has not put a DARK MARK on his "followers" and asked for complete
> allegiance. Nor does he use that same DARK MARK to summon them.
>
> ANd while the only wizard RIDDLE feared is dead - Harry has lots of
> live wizards to fear.
>
>
> And - when Riddle came back - he seems his old abominable powerful self
> - no "broken powers" - not apparently weakened.

LV was weakened in his spirit form, that is the reason he didn't
continue his reign of terror. This was what hagrid was referring to. I
do not claim that LV was less powerful upon his 2nd comming

> > But end of PS/SS we find out explicity why number 1) happened (i.e
> > Lily's protection) then in HBP we find out how number 2) happened (i.e
> > LV has horcruxes) but we are yet to hear anything concrete on how 3)
> > happened. This is why I believe this issue will be addressed in book7,
> > but then you've got to wonder why has JKR waited until the last book to
> > address this question? maybe because she's got a twist in mind which
> > relates to it (you've noticed how she likes her twists? how she often
> > comprises character consistency inorder to provide plot twists?); the
> > possible twist could be like the only one who can defeat LV finding out
> > that he is a horcrux of LV's...
>
> AND - while Riddle continues to try to kill Harry - it seems unlikely
> that he would be willing to give up another soul bit that easily.

But the prophecy says that "/the one/ with the power to vanquish the
Dark Lord" is harry. So harry's death would ensure LV's immortality.

> ANother thing - if the scar were the result of the Horcrux spell - you
> would think it would have been known by at least Dumbledore to be so -
> but he never mentioned it.

i am not claiming the scar was a result of the horcrux spell. I believe
that it is likely that the horcrux creating spell accidentally hit the
newly created cut (which would later become the scar) just after the
rebounding AK left that cut.

> I cannot believe JKR has set up this story to end it with the Demise of
> Harry - so Harry is not a horcrux.

You assuming that harry must die inorder to destory the soul fragment
within him. I can think of many other ways it could end (Apart from the
switching spell)
1) harry might befriend an errant Dementer who can selectively suck out

just LV's soulbit. okay even i think this is very UNlikely
2)Harry has just killed Nagini when LV surprises harry with an AK. The
AK hits harry and destoryed LV's soulbit but because of Peter's life
debt Peter dies instead of harry. then harry is free to finish LV off.
If That is not necessarily true.
3) After destroying all the other hocruxes, harry does a Switching
Spell to take out LV's soul fragment. Then harry won't have LV's powers
so will have to destory LV just as himself.

just some ideas, but they show that if harry is a horcrux he does not
have to die.

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247809 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 21:07
Kish  
Jane Grey wrote:
> Thom Madura wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>With the exception of Parceltongue - what powers or traits has Harry
>>gotten from Riddle. (THe love came from his mother). THe communication
>>between RIddle and Harry is not really a power - at least not yet.
>
>
> Perphaps I was thinking of when, in CoS, DD says:
> "Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many qualities Salazar
> Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students. His own very rare gift,
> Parseltongue -resourcefulness - determination -- a certain disregard
> for rules..."
>
> but reading that section again i guess the "-resourcefulness -
> determination -- a certain disregard for rules" could have been from
> harry.

Could have been? I would say there are three "possibilities" here.

1) Resourcefulness, determination, a certain disregard for rules; that's
Harry.
2) Harry's entire personality comes from Voldemort. There is no true
Harry Potter, and the books will turn out to be about Voldemort fighting
against himself.
3) Resourcefulness, determination, and disregard for rules come from
Voldemort. Harry has other personality traits (his avowed capacity for
love presumably among them) which came from himself. However, the three
qualities you associate with Voldemort contribute a huge amount to who
Harry is, and the plots of all the books so far. Can you imagine a
Harry who wasn't resourceful or determined? (One who strove to follow
all the rules, maybe.) Would you want to read about him? More than
that, what would it mean if Harry lost what Voldemort gave him? (I see
why this is important to the "Harry is a Horcrux" theory, incidentally.
The way Dumbledore says it, Voldemort transfered impersonal powers and
nothing else. "You have Parseltongue which you got from him" is much
weaker support for assimilating bits of soul than "You have personality
traits which you got from him," I realize.) No longer resourceful, no
longer determined...I submit that he would be unrecognizable not only to
the readers, but to himself as well. Therefore, this is almost
equivalent to option 2.

See why I put "possibilities" in quotes? I don't actually see
possibilities, but rather one certainty and two absurdities. Dumbledore
explained why the Sorting Hat considered Harry for Slytherin, why
Salazar would have wanted Harry in Slytherin. When Harry protested,
Dumbledore explained that one--just one--of the qualities, Parseltongue,
came from Voldemort. He did /not/ say or imply on any level, "You are
resourceful and determined because Voldemort is resourceful and determined."
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247811 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 21:12
Kish  
Jane Grey wrote:
> Kish wrote:
>
>>Jane Grey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>However I do believe that circa PS/SS and CoS we were lead to believe
>>>that mysterious things happened that night, including:
>>>1) A baby survived the AK curse
>>>2) LV was weakened ("his powers broke" as hagrid put it) but didn't die
>>>3) Harry acquired LV's abilities and triats
>>>
>>>But end of PS/SS we find out explicity why number 1) happened (i.e
>>>Lily's protection) then in HBP we find out how number 2) happened (i.e
>>>LV has horcruxes) but we are yet to hear anything concrete on how 3)
>>>happened. This is why I believe this issue will be addressed in book7,
>>>but then you've got to wonder why has JKR waited until the last book to
>>>address this question?
>>
>>Not quite. I'm not convinced she considers it something that needs to
>>be addressed. What magical mechanical issues has she explained in
>>detail? I can't think of any. Harry's father was an Animagus; when
>>Harry shouts "Accio Rosmerta's Brooms!" two brooms come flying to him;
>>when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at Harry and it bounced due to Lily's
>>protection and struck Voldemort down, it transferred some of Voldemort's
>>powers to Harry. Statements--not explanations.
>
>
> ah but nowhere is it stated that "when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at
> Harry ....it transferred some of Voldemort's powers to Harry."
>
> Instead JKR got the idea across to us by being cunning vague about what
> exactly went on that night. y'all should know by now that JKR is
> sneaky! and vagueness means she's hiding a revelations for a future
> book...

Just like her supposed "vagueness" in print about Snape meant he was a
vampire. It is your opinion, not an established fact, that she was
"cunning vague." If she meant exactly what she said, then she was
perfectly clear. She was only vague if there's more to the power
transfer than what Dumbledore said. Your theory is
self-referential--you say it's likely to be true because it explains
things that...only need an explanation if it's true.
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247814 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 21:24
Lady Grey  
Kish wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
> > Kish wrote:
> >
> >>Jane Grey wrote:
<snip>
> > ah but nowhere is it stated that "when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at
> > Harry ....it transferred some of Voldemort's powers to Harry."
> >
> > Instead JKR got the idea across to us by being cunning vague about what
> > exactly went on that night. y'all should know by now that JKR is
> > sneaky! and vagueness means she's hiding a revelations for a future
> > book...
>
> Just like her supposed "vagueness" in print about Snape meant he was a
> vampire. It is your opinion, not an established fact, that she was
> "cunning vague." If she meant exactly what she said, then she was
> perfectly clear.

that's not so, nowhere in the books does it say HOW harry accidentally
acquired LV's powers. All AD said was that it happened that night and
this has lead people to conclude that somehow the rebounding AK was
directly responsible. Therefore JKR has been vague, by the subtle way
she has managed to not address the How at all.

> She was only vague if there's more to the power
> transfer than what Dumbledore said.

but DD didn't tackle /how/ is happened at all.

> Your theory is
> self-referential--you say it's likely to be true because it explains
> things that...only need an explanation if it's true.

that's just not true, there are still explained mysteries related to
that night;
1) Why did LV give Lily so many chances to live?
2) How did LV unintentaionally tansfer his powers to harry?

harry's being a horcrux is a side-effect of a possible explanation of
number 2)

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247816 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 21:37
Lady Grey  
Kish wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
> > Thom Madura wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> >>With the exception of Parceltongue - what powers or traits has Harry
> >>gotten from Riddle. (THe love came from his mother). THe communication
> >>between RIddle and Harry is not really a power - at least not yet.
> >
> >
> > Perphaps I was thinking of when, in CoS, DD says:
> > "Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many qualities Salazar
> > Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students. His own very rare gift,
> > Parseltongue -resourcefulness - determination -- a certain disregard
> > for rules..."
> >
> > but reading that section again i guess the "-resourcefulness -
> > determination -- a certain disregard for rules" could have been from
> > harry.
>
> Could have been? I would say there are three "possibilities" here.
>
> 1) Resourcefulness, determination, a certain disregard for rules; that's
> Harry.
> 2) Harry's entire personality comes from Voldemort. There is no true
> Harry Potter, and the books will turn out to be about Voldemort fighting
> against himself.

2) is not possible at all. because harry has other traits other than
the ones DD mentioned.

> 3) Resourcefulness, determination, and disregard for rules come from
> Voldemort. Harry has other personality traits (his avowed capacity for
> love presumably among them) which came from himself. However, the three
> qualities you associate with Voldemort contribute a huge amount to who
> Harry is, and the plots of all the books so far. Can you imagine a
> Harry who wasn't resourceful or determined? (One who strove to follow
> all the rules, maybe.) Would you want to read about him? More than
> that, what would it mean if Harry lost what Voldemort gave him? (I see

these could be a part of LV and harry to different extents. But the
whole point of the prophecy is that LV gives harry the ability to be
the one that can defeat him. So if harry is quick on his feet because
LV is, then harry can use this to defeat LV. Then if harry is no longer
quick on his feet (due to losing LV's soulbit) it won't matter that he
isn't quick his feet anymore because LV is gone and he doesn't need to
be so he might not even notice that he has lost that ability.

> why this is important to the "Harry is a Horcrux" theory, incidentally.
> The way Dumbledore says it, Voldemort transfered impersonal powers and
> nothing else. "You have Parseltongue which you got from him" is much
> weaker support for assimilating bits of soul than "You have personality
> traits which you got from him," I realize.) No longer resourceful, no
> longer determined...I submit that he would be unrecognizable not only to
> the readers, but to himself as well. Therefore, this is almost
> equivalent to option 2.

well not necessarily, it all depends on whether a person's
characteristics resides in their soul. i am inclined to think not.

> See why I put "possibilities" in quotes? I don't actually see
> possibilities, but rather one certainty and two absurdities. Dumbledore
> explained why the Sorting Hat considered Harry for Slytherin, why
> Salazar would have wanted Harry in Slytherin. When Harry protested,
> Dumbledore explained that one--just one--of the qualities, Parseltongue,
> came from Voldemort. He did /not/ say or imply on any level, "You are
> resourceful and determined because Voldemort is resourceful and determined."

yes, on re-read that is what I too understood from what AD said.

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247823 ] So, 16 April 2006 00:10
Lady Grey  
Kish wrote:
> Jane Grey wrote:
> > Kish wrote:
>
> >>Jane Grey wrote:
<snip>
> > ah but nowhere is it stated that "when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at
> > Harry ....it transferred some of Voldemort's powers to Harry."
>
> > Instead JKR got the idea across to us by being cunning vague about what
> > exactly went on that night. y'all should know by now that JKR is
> > sneaky! and vagueness means she's hiding a revelations for a future
> > book...
>
> Just like her supposed "vagueness" in print about Snape meant he was a
> vampire. It is your opinion, not an established fact, that she was
> "cunning vague." If she meant exactly what she said, then she was
> perfectly clear.

that's not so, nowhere in the books does it say HOW harry accidentally
acquired LV's powers. All AD said was that it happened that night and
this has lead people to conclude that somehow the rebounding AK was
directly responsible. Therefore JKR has been vague, by the subtle way
she has managed to not address the How at all.

> She was only vague if there's more to the power
> transfer than what Dumbledore said.

but DD didn't tackle /how/ it happened at all.

> Your theory is
> self-referential--you say it's likely to be true because it explains
> things that...only need an explanation if it's true.

that's just not true, there are still unexplained mysteries related to
that night;
1) Why did LV give Lily so many chances to live?
2) How did LV unintentaionally tansfer his powers to harry?

harry's being a horcrux is a side-effect of a possible explanation of
number 2)

--
Jane Grey
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247827 ] So, 16 April 2006 00:48
Eric Bohlman  
"Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
news:1145124282.168458.73350 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Ginny did throw it away, she flushed it down the toilets but Moaning
> Myrtle brought it back up again and Harry ended up finding it.
> Anyways it wasn't like Harry /couldn't/ throw it away, he just found
> himself paying more attention to it than one might normally give to
> blank pages because the name Tom Riddle seemed familiar to him, even
> though he'd never heard of a Tom Riddle before.

I think Harry's going to need to ask Ginny if she felt that strange
familiarity as well. If she did, then it's likely just the result of a
charm Riddle put on the diary in order to attract people to it (otherwise
most people would just ignore it) and not anything special about Harry. If
she didn't, OTOH, that opens up some major questions about what Tom and
Harry have in common (other than both having a ... think "cliches about
common names").
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247843 ] So, 16 April 2006 09:19
Toon  
On 15 Apr 2006 02:40:13 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

>Kish wrote:
>> Jane Grey wrote:
>>
>> > However I do believe that circa PS/SS and CoS we were lead to believe
>> > that mysterious things happened that night, including:
>> > 1) A baby survived the AK curse
>> > 2) LV was weakened ("his powers broke" as hagrid put it) but didn't die
>> > 3) Harry acquired LV's abilities and triats
>> >
>> > But end of PS/SS we find out explicity why number 1) happened (i.e
>> > Lily's protection) then in HBP we find out how number 2) happened (i.e
>> > LV has horcruxes) but we are yet to hear anything concrete on how 3)
>> > happened. This is why I believe this issue will be addressed in book7,
>> > but then you've got to wonder why has JKR waited until the last book to
>> > address this question?
>>
>> Not quite. I'm not convinced she considers it something that needs to
>> be addressed. What magical mechanical issues has she explained in
>> detail? I can't think of any. Harry's father was an Animagus; when
>> Harry shouts "Accio Rosmerta's Brooms!" two brooms come flying to him;
>> when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at Harry and it bounced due to Lily's
>> protection and struck Voldemort down, it transferred some of Voldemort's
>> powers to Harry. Statements--not explanations.
>
>ah but nowhere is it stated that "when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at
>Harry ....it transferred some of Voldemort's powers to Harry."
>
>Instead JKR got the idea across to us by being cunning vague about what
>exactly went on that night. y'all should know by now that JKR is
>sneaky! and vagueness means she's hiding a revelations for a future
>book... and since, every HP book has revealed a bit more about what
>happened that night, I am sure more will be revealed in book7.

Rihgt. And that is, Harry's somehow a horcrux. Not is, but how?
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247845 ] So, 16 April 2006 09:25
Toon  
On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 12:33:10 GMT, Thom Madura
<Thom-Madura [at] Worldnet.att.net> wrote:


>Harry has not put a DARK MARK on his "followers" and asked for complete
>allegiance. Nor does he use that same DARK MARK to summon them.

Hermione put a mark on any tattlers, and created a way to summon the
DA.


>And - when Riddle came back - he seems his old abominable powerful self
>- no "broken powers" - not apparently weakened.
>

But stronger, according to Trelawny's prophecy. and he is immune to
Lily's protection. That alone is stronger.

>ANother thing - if the scar were the result of the Horcrux spell - you
>would think it would have been known by at least Dumbledore to be so -
>but he never mentioned it.

DD does miss things. Apprently he can't believe a DADA teacher would
be an awful person. And he wasn't there, so anything he believes
happens is a guess.


>I cannot believe JKR has set up this story to end it with the Demise of
>Harry - so Harry is not a horcrux.

Harry can destroy the Horcrux part and still live. The diary stabbed,
the ring cracked. He shouldn't have too much problems living.
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247846 ] So, 16 April 2006 09:26
Toon  
On 15 Apr 2006 11:29:56 -0700, "Jane Grey" <jane.grey [at] hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

> a certain disregard for rules" could have been from
>harry.

More like James.
Re: Harry is a ...well, I was just thinking [message #247860 ] So, 16 April 2006 14:56
Alex Clark  
wadkin2000 [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> JNH, to answer your post...Yes, this subject has been discussed to
> death . . .

But it has Horcruxes.

--
Alex Clark

Evil tram mold odor (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)
Vorheriges Thema:unbelivingly paradoxical!!!
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